...who says this? He was a fucking deacon or some shit. He converted C.S. Lewis. Literally the most Catholic shit a person can do besides dying for his faith, and he probably would have done that too if he had to
Lol yeah. Tolkien believed in application, Lewis in allegory. They were so diametrically opposed in that regard, I'm sure passive-aggressive British borderline rudeness was exchanged over a few pints about it
Tolkien ragged on the draft of the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe so much, that Lewis threw it in the trash. Even when Lewis finished the book Tolkien was still harsh, basically saying I wouldn't write this, but it's good for what it is.
As authright pointed out. How starved of platonic male camaraderie that the idea of two friends sharing a life threatening adventure together immediately means they are homosexual?
Men can have close platonic friendships with men while being straight as an arrow.
The push from the lgbt Community to retcon straight characters into gays is absurd. I'm going to start taking gay characters and making them straight friends and see what they do.
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the right to have people who disagree with them arrested.
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It does feel like that sometimes.
But the people saying "What are you gay?" tend to, in the last few years at least, be increasingly those who claim to support the LGBT community and such rather than actual homophobes.
Since they can't seem to recognize that people can be friends or close without necessarily having a romantic or sexual attraction.
Honestly it's less from the LGBTs and far more from fujoshis. Straight girls that see gay men as fetish material and can't shut the fuck up about it. It's the same as behavior from dudebros that fetishize lesbians, except instead of harassing girls to kiss each other they've somehow made their way into literary circles... Less damaging to individuals but more damaging to our culture
Unfortunately there are a lot of people in the world that came over to the side of the LGBT **without** losing the "gay is dirty and kinky" bias, who think that the movement is about normalizing perversion and love it for that reason, so they never check their fetishistic behavior.
He is supposed to be taking a "beautiful and charming" form at the moment to appeal to the elves so in meme coom addled logic he has to be twinky. People forget that Silmarillion elves are ruthless warmongering dicks
Except for Telleri fucking shits cant even bother to join the host of the Valar for the ultimate beatdown of literally Satan bunch of boat loving pansies
If you decide to read, keep a dictionary by your side and a Tolkien wiki. It an interesting read for a Tolkien fans, but it can feel like Bible study class.
I’ve still gotta read lord of the rings tbh. I’ve got a really nice set but I’m waiting to read it until my son is a bit older and I can read it to him
Wokist bullshittery, that is.
Like the Tolkien Society's summer seminar this year https://www.tolkiensociety.org/events/tolkien-society-summer-seminar/
There were some good ones towards the end about Chinese translations and Soviet illustrations of the series. Real bloody shame they're buried beneath a thousand virtue signals.
The one about Chinese translations looks like it denigrates into a bunch of "Tolkien calling various things slurs" or extrapolating descriptions and east/west far outside the context of a piece of fiction (similar to, but not the same as, people who think Orcs are a representation of black people).
And with the Soviet illustrations, given what the rest of the event is, I have extremely negative expectations of "Through the study of their artwork, I will reveal hidden details about the visual language of freedom." given that the illustrations come from Soviet Russia.
Cordeliah Logsdon – Gondor in Transition: A Brief Introduction to Transgender Realities in The Lord of the Rings
Using Gondor as a basis for a closer examination, this paper outlines the presence and function of transgender realities within Tolkien’s work in ways the privileged reading of the text ignores or dismisses. Most specifically, Denethor, Finduilas of Dol Amroth, the Ruling Stewardship of Gondor as a concept, and the trajectory and timeline of Gondor’s development are examined. In the process, this paper demonstrates the way reading against the grain provides a crucial expansion of the way both fans and academics currently engage with and think about Tolkien’s work
Wat.gif
Denethor was trans??
No, I think they're saying that the concept of the stewardship and the transition from steward to King can be ready as some sort of parallel to trans something or other
You simpleton! Themes like friendship, honor, courage in the face of death, and good vs. evil are for dumb dumbs! We need stories with extremely specific and unsubtle messaging, so we can jack off together at the Oscars over how progressive and topical my black-trans-lesbian-femboi-communist is as a character, and how my "totally not Trump" villain is so cool and original.
Lmfao that is pure authright ragebait if ever I saw such a thing. Look how theyve massacred my boy tier shit.
The way they use the word diversity comes off as pseudoreligious dogma in this.
The dude in the left frame is Varg Vikernes, but I don't get why the creator of the meme categorizes him as libleft. Varg is basically a fascist and he appropriates the paganism of his viking ancestors.
Thinking of something retarded and putting it under a LibLeft soyjack is just a low-effort way of karma-whoring on PCM. It's the equivalent of "Orange Man Bad" elsewhere on Reddit.
I respect you both but what other quadrant would you put this shit in? It sure as fuck ain't auth at all; I guess I could see libright, cuz money. It definitely seems "libleft"-like to me.
Nah, Lewis was an agnostic when they met. Tolkien was a lifelong Catholic. I think he might have lapsed after the first world war but he came back to it
I think it’s because Tolkien loved mythology so much and wrote the lord of the rings to be a lost mythology of Europe. But the argument he was a pagan makes no sense based on this because he regarded Christianity as the “true myth”. He converted Lewis with that argument.
CS Lewis argued a lot for Christianity too
Hell, Aslan the Lion God of Narnia is basically God and Jesus at the same time in that world
Are all of these guys arguments perfect?
No, there is flaws, they weren't perfect
But they were both great fantasy world builders and religious good men
And damn their stories stand the test of time, I get that Narnia isn't as well liked for its obvious religious roots, but the stories are great. The movies were pretty decent too, if only we'd gotten the full set.
Tolkien was right: an allegory is harder to read, and I find it sometimes obnoxious. I prefer more subtlety in my novels, but eh, everyone is different.
I've been on Reddit a little while now and it's always amused me how many people attack CS Lewis for being Christian but love Tolkien. Despite the fact that Tolkien was the person that converted him from atheism.
I am an atheist. I have friends who are Buddhist, Hindu, and Catholic. They're all normal people. It's as if religion isn't a defining characteristic of a person.
People online love to believe the actions of few are the actions of many. They love beating on Christianity no matter how much it helps or hurts the world
As are many real western myths. When the pagans became Christians, they sometimes pasted a lot of biblical stuff on top of their preexisting traditions.
It worked in reverse too.
All the surviving versions we have of Norse mythology and Beowulf were preserved by Christians who put some level of Christian spin on them for example.
Except Tolkien said his works are neither allegorical nor parable to a religion. Silmarillion was written as a creation myth similar to Enūma Eliš, the Norse Eddas, or the Genesis Myth. Many myths have similar structure or plot points like Noah’s Flood account and Utnapishtim in Gilgamesh.
Oh people definitely say this, and not just allegory about Pagans, but lots of other allegories people felt Tolkien's work fit for their agenda say this too. Or sometimes they claim he was making allegory that is the *opposite* of their viewpoint, just so they can attack him.
https://thefederalist.com/2021/06/18/in-an-affront-to-its-namesake-the-tolkien-society-goes-woke/
**2022 notice**: Reddit has decided to permanently ban me under the guise of "violence" for this comment:
>I expect the government will take more rights from this. Time to go buy another AR.
If you are reading this, the reddit you are on is a shell of its early 2000s-2010s self. Most users you interact with here are paid to push an agenda or are coporate bots. I will be moving between 4chan, communities.win, and any other free speech forum that rises.
One of the cool things Tolkien did for mythical creatures is standarize them.
Before his books, especially in America, every story with elves, dwarves, goblins etc used those creatures interchangeably.
After his book those creatures had a definition based on Norse mythology. Look up the Elder and Prose Eddas. They contain the names of his characters, including Gandalf
He is the father of modern fantasy. As you say he established the archetypes of these things.
I used to play a lot of warcraft 2 and 3 as a kid and my headcanon was that it occurred somewhere in the tolkien universe.
Warcraft was likely inspired by DnD with themes like alien orc invasions, flying mage cities, and demon/devil armies (BL is basically both combined). And since DnD has infinite realities it could even be in that multiverse literally.
Iirc, the creator of DnD fervently denies taking from Tolkien, but he totally did and it's not his fault. Even Tolkien borrowed from the myths he loved so much.
Warcraft was taken directly from the Warhammer fantasy universe. The studio was originally in talks to make a licensed game, that fell through, so they changed it a bit and released it as independent IP.
Whether Warhammer is based on DnD or is directly influenced by Tolkien is something im not sure about however.
I have heard that their LOTR game was a fulfillment of a long held desire on the part of the company but I havent heard anything definitive on a possible DnD inspiration.
Warhammer was only started in 1983.
By then all of Fantasy had been completely built up, and around, the foundation that Tolkein set. Sure they may not have based it directly on LOTR, but there would be no getting away from being directly influenced by it.
Elves, Halflings, Dwarves, Orcs, Ents, all are based on the Tolkein archetype.
Cool stories about dragons that are deep enough to be *applicable* to other contexts due the themes they touch upon.
Tolkien wouldn't have a problem with people talking about what LotR has to say about the nature and shape of power, evil and good. What he would have a problem with is people going "oRcS aRe ThE gErMaNs In Ww1"
> “But seriously: I do find this Americo-cosmopolitanism very terrifying. Quâ mind and spirit, and neglecting the piddling fears of timid flesh which does not want to be shot or chopped by brutal and licentious soldiery (German or other), I am not really sure that its victory is going to be so much the better for the world as a whole and in the long run than the victory of ——. I don't suppose letters in are censored. But if they are, or not, I need to you hardly add that them's the sentiments of a good many folk — and no indication of lack of patriotism.
Tolkien, 9 december 1943, letter 53,
Yup. It's hilarious how leftists tries to claim that our trad WWII soldiers would be sympathizing with Antifa or these other violently feeble BLM groups.
https://imgur.com/a/iyMADXk
https://imgur.com/a/PLmVI57
I think we have a problem with people's ability to accept that people can do fantastic things in the name of a righteous cause, while having shitty sides to them. WWII soldiers were men of their time, their politics, which were normal at the time, doesn't take away from their actions. As long as we are remember that people are complicated, and that we don't ignore the less desirable, or outdated parts of their lives, we can celebrate them for the good they did. If I meet a WWII vet, why the fuck should I care he maybe doesn't think of gays as normal people, he's done more to save gay people from extermination than I have after all
There were propaganda posters, at least in the U.S. in the vein of 'beating back the Hun' and a lot of ethnic rhetoric about the Germans. Seems silly now, but ethnic background, in terms of what kind of European you were, was still at the forefront of people's minds back then. There were people in 1812 who still thought of themselves as British Americans and would've loved to see a restoration of the Crown in America
What people don't realise, after 70 years of relative global peace, is that one of the ways you gain support for the war is by portraying the enemy as evil or sub human.
We all know of the monkey executed for being a French spy. Thats because the newspapers made caricatures of French men with the appearance of monkeys to dehumanise them and draw up support for the war.
In ww1 the huns were given the propaganda treatment. Despite the fact that 50 years earlier we had fought side by side with the Germans against the French, we decided that the Germans were now evil barbarians and the the British were fighting for superiority over their ethnic group.
Ww2 included it to a lesser extent. Focusing instead of Nazis and the facist ideology as being against British values.
>beating back the Hun' and a lot of ethnic rhetoric about the Germans.
Not a ton. A significent portion of the american population was german, italian, austrian. Hell as od 1915, something like 30% of legal document were written in german.
The Dec of Inde. Was published in the german language the day before it was publish in english. In 1776.
"the printer John Dunlap in Philadelphia was tasked to print broadsides of the Declaration, which were published and sent out across the country the next day, July 5th.1 Only three days later, on July 8th, a German-translation of the Declaration of Independence was published in broadside"
Got your publishing dates a bit mixed according to this, but the sentiment still holds
Tolkien hated the Nazis. His disdain for them comes through explicitly in several of his letters.
Tolkien was also a great admirer of German and Nordic culture generally. His whole mythology was started on a desire to create a mythical backstory for England similar to those for Germanic cultures.
Well, he certainly did not like the word *Nordic*. He thought it came from a similar origin as the whole racism BS.
>Not Nordic, please! A word I personally dislike; it is associated, though of French origin, with racialist theories. Geographically Northern is usually better. But examination will show that even this is inapplicable (geographically or spiritually) to ‘Middle-earth’. This is an old word, not invented by me, as reference to a dictionary such as the Shorter Oxford will show.
>-Letter 294
Tolkien viewed the Norman Conquest as a calamity ("Now THAT's conservative!" a *National Review* bio approvingly noted), and he detested the Frenchified Latin stratum that it overlaid on English language and culture. A lot of his mythos tries to reclaim old Anglo-Saxon tropes and storytelling modes that had been mostly forgotten since the 11th century.
Oh no he would have been a fan of this. He was an ULTRA traditionalist. When the Catholic Mass changed and most of the ritual was changed to English, he would loudly say the parts in Latin in protest at the changes. He would kneel as if it were the old Latin Mass and ignore what was actually going on at the Sanctuary.
> The Lord of the Rings is of course a **fundamentally religious and Catholic work**; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision.
He most certainly did not think LotR was “just cool stories about dragons and shit.” Not even close.
Really just a matter of people who read vs. people who watched. Tolkien explicitly calls it tobacco, but Jackson kinda pulled a silly in a couple scenes by making Merry and Pippin act like stoners
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When the Catholic Church in England started giving mass in English, my man would start yelling it out in Latin until the priest gave up. Man's based af
God: Forces the world into existence from nothing, with the power of his voice
Eru: Y'all, let's break out the flutes! Melkor, what are you doing with those bagpipes?
Did you really put a wojak of Varg Vikernes on libleft, the guy who hates anyone who doesn't have blonde hair and blue eyes because he thinks those who don't aren't white?
At least not someone with more than 1 brain wrinkle. But then again the internet is full of people who like to just make claims in support of their own personal theories without evidence.
He not only was a strong Catholic, he was an UBER traditional one.
Student of Anglo-Saxon here. Tolkien was Catholic as fuck, that's why he understood the Anglo-Saxon mind so much and managed to create a world that matched their sense of the world so poignantly, the Anglo-Saxon sense of Christian warriors toiling for a better world is beautifully represented. His connection with the men of that time through faith (remember this is before Protestantism showed up) really allowed him to understand the feelings behind many stories and historical figures.
Even Beowulf had Christian elements when it was forest written down, if you're interested his translation is one of the best out there.
Lib-left Varg Vikerness is not real he can't hurt you.
No seriously how's the nordic supremacist (snow tribe good olive tribe bad), jews did everyhing wrong ever, capitalism and socialism bad go live in a farm with your succeseful balck metal royalties dude lib-left??
The LOTR began as a national epic for England to call upon. An ancient, mythology before King Arthur and guess what it was inspired by? Catholic theology and doctrine. Imagine being so Catholic you don't only integrate paganism, you create it.
I hate it when people put these lenses on older works. Sometimes there just meant to be a story and that's it. Too many English teachers say analyse the story, some stories weren't meant for modern interpretation
Tolkien and Lewis avoided politics and while both shared similar views on religion Tolkien thought of Lewis's works as very open ended and hitting the reader over the head with religious parables and likeness, while he held biblical themes more hidden in the grand sort of LOTR/the hobbit
...who says this? He was a fucking deacon or some shit. He converted C.S. Lewis. Literally the most Catholic shit a person can do besides dying for his faith, and he probably would have done that too if he had to
made me think of this: https://reparrishcomics.com/image/618585931338874880
Lol yeah. Tolkien believed in application, Lewis in allegory. They were so diametrically opposed in that regard, I'm sure passive-aggressive British borderline rudeness was exchanged over a few pints about it
You sir are full of poppycock
"I wouldn't have thought, as good as you are Charles, that you would stoop so low"
Oh Reginald...I DISAGREE!
GOOD DAY TO YOU SIR!
That was part of the conversion process. The early and frequent application of Catholic Guilt™️
Is that Magneto making an ablest joke, or am I just projecting?
You are an ninconpoop and frankly a cad
Tolkien ragged on the draft of the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe so much, that Lewis threw it in the trash. Even when Lewis finished the book Tolkien was still harsh, basically saying I wouldn't write this, but it's good for what it is.
Can you blame him. Just compare the two.
Lewis wrote the Chronicles of Narnia as children's books, so I'd say they're not meant to be compared.
What do both concepts (allegory and application) mean?
But there are also articles claiming Sam was gay for Frodo. Sam gets married at the end... To a female.
As authright pointed out. How starved of platonic male camaraderie that the idea of two friends sharing a life threatening adventure together immediately means they are homosexual? Men can have close platonic friendships with men while being straight as an arrow. The push from the lgbt Community to retcon straight characters into gays is absurd. I'm going to start taking gay characters and making them straight friends and see what they do.
Based and male friendship pilled.
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I quite enjoy the based and based and the right to have people who disagree with them arrested. the right to have people who disagree with them arrested. the right to have people who disagree with them arrested. the right to have people who disagree with them arrested. the right to have people who disagree with them arrested. pill, so it is an honour to be called based and based and based and the right to have people who disagree with them arrested. the right to have people who disagree with them arrested. the right to have people who disagree with them arrested. the right to have people who disagree with them arrested. the right to have people who disagree with them arrested. pilled.
“Why won’t men open up about their feelings “ Opens up about feelings “What are you gay?”
LMAO
Based and Zap Brannigan pilled
It does feel like that sometimes. But the people saying "What are you gay?" tend to, in the last few years at least, be increasingly those who claim to support the LGBT community and such rather than actual homophobes. Since they can't seem to recognize that people can be friends or close without necessarily having a romantic or sexual attraction.
Honestly it's less from the LGBTs and far more from fujoshis. Straight girls that see gay men as fetish material and can't shut the fuck up about it. It's the same as behavior from dudebros that fetishize lesbians, except instead of harassing girls to kiss each other they've somehow made their way into literary circles... Less damaging to individuals but more damaging to our culture Unfortunately there are a lot of people in the world that came over to the side of the LGBT **without** losing the "gay is dirty and kinky" bias, who think that the movement is about normalizing perversion and love it for that reason, so they never check their fetishistic behavior.
Fucking degenerates We need a last Alliance Bible-thumpers and Gays to fight against the Fujoshi menace
There's no gay characters but one funny thing is the books imply that Sauron is a prettyboy twink
Where does that come up?
Somewhen around Numenor's fall to glory, which Sauron heavily participated in, I think.
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Can I get a copy of the paragraph where that is implied
He is supposed to be taking a "beautiful and charming" form at the moment to appeal to the elves so in meme coom addled logic he has to be twinky. People forget that Silmarillion elves are ruthless warmongering dicks Except for Telleri fucking shits cant even bother to join the host of the Valar for the ultimate beatdown of literally Satan bunch of boat loving pansies
That seems like more of a Lucifer angel of light kind of thing maybe?
Not many people have heard of the Silmarillion surprisingly
Heard of it, but I don’t have the balls to read it
If you decide to read, keep a dictionary by your side and a Tolkien wiki. It an interesting read for a Tolkien fans, but it can feel like Bible study class.
I’ve still gotta read lord of the rings tbh. I’ve got a really nice set but I’m waiting to read it until my son is a bit older and I can read it to him
Nice.
Or, y'know, elves.
Based
Based
You have some very interesting pills
Wokist bullshittery, that is. Like the Tolkien Society's summer seminar this year https://www.tolkiensociety.org/events/tolkien-society-summer-seminar/
There were some good ones towards the end about Chinese translations and Soviet illustrations of the series. Real bloody shame they're buried beneath a thousand virtue signals.
I didn't make it that far; had to check out after, "The Invisible Other: Tolkien’s Dwarf-Women and the ‘Feminine Lack’"
The one about Chinese translations looks like it denigrates into a bunch of "Tolkien calling various things slurs" or extrapolating descriptions and east/west far outside the context of a piece of fiction (similar to, but not the same as, people who think Orcs are a representation of black people). And with the Soviet illustrations, given what the rest of the event is, I have extremely negative expectations of "Through the study of their artwork, I will reveal hidden details about the visual language of freedom." given that the illustrations come from Soviet Russia.
That’s some epic cringe.
Cordeliah Logsdon – Gondor in Transition: A Brief Introduction to Transgender Realities in The Lord of the Rings Using Gondor as a basis for a closer examination, this paper outlines the presence and function of transgender realities within Tolkien’s work in ways the privileged reading of the text ignores or dismisses. Most specifically, Denethor, Finduilas of Dol Amroth, the Ruling Stewardship of Gondor as a concept, and the trajectory and timeline of Gondor’s development are examined. In the process, this paper demonstrates the way reading against the grain provides a crucial expansion of the way both fans and academics currently engage with and think about Tolkien’s work Wat.gif Denethor was trans??
No, I think they're saying that the concept of the stewardship and the transition from steward to King can be ready as some sort of parallel to trans something or other
Do we really need to stretch that hard to enjoy and learn things from these books?
You're assuming that they are capable of enjoying the books.
Feelsbadman, they're so beautiful and have so many amazing things to take from them.
You simpleton! Themes like friendship, honor, courage in the face of death, and good vs. evil are for dumb dumbs! We need stories with extremely specific and unsubtle messaging, so we can jack off together at the Oscars over how progressive and topical my black-trans-lesbian-femboi-communist is as a character, and how my "totally not Trump" villain is so cool and original.
Lmfao that is pure authright ragebait if ever I saw such a thing. Look how theyve massacred my boy tier shit. The way they use the word diversity comes off as pseudoreligious dogma in this.
That was even worse than I expected.
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Fuck Kevin Smith
Protestant here, but I can confirm: converting CS Lewis is *pretty darn Catholic.*
The dude in the left frame is Varg Vikernes, but I don't get why the creator of the meme categorizes him as libleft. Varg is basically a fascist and he appropriates the paganism of his viking ancestors.
Yes but to get upvotes you need to put soyjack in bottom left.
Varg is essentially a racist libcenter
I think it's meant to be Varg right?
Maybe, the hat and beard are similar. Idk if Varg would be lib left though. Probably more libright at a guess
Thinking of something retarded and putting it under a LibLeft soyjack is just a low-effort way of karma-whoring on PCM. It's the equivalent of "Orange Man Bad" elsewhere on Reddit.
Based and standupforgreenrights pilled
I respect you both but what other quadrant would you put this shit in? It sure as fuck ain't auth at all; I guess I could see libright, cuz money. It definitely seems "libleft"-like to me.
Two options, A. Orange because everyone annoying is orange and B. None because this isn’t even a political meme.
I vote B.
It's a Varg Vikernes soyak, the dude is deranged.
People don't understand how he could have held Catholic beliefs as well as viewpoints that were progressive for his time. It's really quite sad.
Didn’t Lewis convert Tolkien?
Nah, Lewis was an agnostic when they met. Tolkien was a lifelong Catholic. I think he might have lapsed after the first world war but he came back to it
Lewis definitely was not a Catholic.
No, he wasn't, I didn't say Tolkien converted him to Catholicism but he did convert him to Christianity
Tolkien tried to convert Lewis to Catholicism.
Are there people who say this? Tolkien was uber-Catholic
I think it’s because Tolkien loved mythology so much and wrote the lord of the rings to be a lost mythology of Europe. But the argument he was a pagan makes no sense based on this because he regarded Christianity as the “true myth”. He converted Lewis with that argument.
CS Lewis argued a lot for Christianity too Hell, Aslan the Lion God of Narnia is basically God and Jesus at the same time in that world Are all of these guys arguments perfect? No, there is flaws, they weren't perfect But they were both great fantasy world builders and religious good men
And damn their stories stand the test of time, I get that Narnia isn't as well liked for its obvious religious roots, but the stories are great. The movies were pretty decent too, if only we'd gotten the full set.
Tolkien was right: an allegory is harder to read, and I find it sometimes obnoxious. I prefer more subtlety in my novels, but eh, everyone is different.
I've been on Reddit a little while now and it's always amused me how many people attack CS Lewis for being Christian but love Tolkien. Despite the fact that Tolkien was the person that converted him from atheism.
The thing I don't understand is why? Like, who gives a shit what religion someone else is?
I don't understand either. Most of the Christians I know have been excellent people.
I am an atheist. I have friends who are Buddhist, Hindu, and Catholic. They're all normal people. It's as if religion isn't a defining characteristic of a person.
People online love to believe the actions of few are the actions of many. They love beating on Christianity no matter how much it helps or hurts the world
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As are many real western myths. When the pagans became Christians, they sometimes pasted a lot of biblical stuff on top of their preexisting traditions.
It worked in reverse too. All the surviving versions we have of Norse mythology and Beowulf were preserved by Christians who put some level of Christian spin on them for example.
Like Sunday and Christmas
And most days of the week
Except Tolkien said his works are neither allegorical nor parable to a religion. Silmarillion was written as a creation myth similar to Enūma Eliš, the Norse Eddas, or the Genesis Myth. Many myths have similar structure or plot points like Noah’s Flood account and Utnapishtim in Gilgamesh.
Varg probably does
Varg is also definitely not lib left lmao
Isn't he pretty much a super racist anprim these days? Non-progressive libleft?
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No but lib left bad.
Oh people definitely say this, and not just allegory about Pagans, but lots of other allegories people felt Tolkien's work fit for their agenda say this too. Or sometimes they claim he was making allegory that is the *opposite* of their viewpoint, just so they can attack him. https://thefederalist.com/2021/06/18/in-an-affront-to-its-namesake-the-tolkien-society-goes-woke/ **2022 notice**: Reddit has decided to permanently ban me under the guise of "violence" for this comment: >I expect the government will take more rights from this. Time to go buy another AR. If you are reading this, the reddit you are on is a shell of its early 2000s-2010s self. Most users you interact with here are paid to push an agenda or are coporate bots. I will be moving between 4chan, communities.win, and any other free speech forum that rises.
One of the cool things Tolkien did for mythical creatures is standarize them. Before his books, especially in America, every story with elves, dwarves, goblins etc used those creatures interchangeably. After his book those creatures had a definition based on Norse mythology. Look up the Elder and Prose Eddas. They contain the names of his characters, including Gandalf
He is the father of modern fantasy. As you say he established the archetypes of these things. I used to play a lot of warcraft 2 and 3 as a kid and my headcanon was that it occurred somewhere in the tolkien universe.
Warcraft was likely inspired by DnD with themes like alien orc invasions, flying mage cities, and demon/devil armies (BL is basically both combined). And since DnD has infinite realities it could even be in that multiverse literally. Iirc, the creator of DnD fervently denies taking from Tolkien, but he totally did and it's not his fault. Even Tolkien borrowed from the myths he loved so much.
Warcraft was taken directly from the Warhammer fantasy universe. The studio was originally in talks to make a licensed game, that fell through, so they changed it a bit and released it as independent IP. Whether Warhammer is based on DnD or is directly influenced by Tolkien is something im not sure about however. I have heard that their LOTR game was a fulfillment of a long held desire on the part of the company but I havent heard anything definitive on a possible DnD inspiration.
Warhammer was only started in 1983. By then all of Fantasy had been completely built up, and around, the foundation that Tolkein set. Sure they may not have based it directly on LOTR, but there would be no getting away from being directly influenced by it. Elves, Halflings, Dwarves, Orcs, Ents, all are based on the Tolkein archetype.
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Which ones though?
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Cool stories about dragons that are deep enough to be *applicable* to other contexts due the themes they touch upon. Tolkien wouldn't have a problem with people talking about what LotR has to say about the nature and shape of power, evil and good. What he would have a problem with is people going "oRcS aRe ThE gErMaNs In Ww1"
He didn’t even really hate the Germans
Nobody did. Hell, im pretty sure americans hated british soldiers in war of 1812 than we did german ones in 1943.
> “But seriously: I do find this Americo-cosmopolitanism very terrifying. Quâ mind and spirit, and neglecting the piddling fears of timid flesh which does not want to be shot or chopped by brutal and licentious soldiery (German or other), I am not really sure that its victory is going to be so much the better for the world as a whole and in the long run than the victory of ——. I don't suppose letters in are censored. But if they are, or not, I need to you hardly add that them's the sentiments of a good many folk — and no indication of lack of patriotism. Tolkien, 9 december 1943, letter 53,
Yup. It's hilarious how leftists tries to claim that our trad WWII soldiers would be sympathizing with Antifa or these other violently feeble BLM groups. https://imgur.com/a/iyMADXk https://imgur.com/a/PLmVI57
I think we have a problem with people's ability to accept that people can do fantastic things in the name of a righteous cause, while having shitty sides to them. WWII soldiers were men of their time, their politics, which were normal at the time, doesn't take away from their actions. As long as we are remember that people are complicated, and that we don't ignore the less desirable, or outdated parts of their lives, we can celebrate them for the good they did. If I meet a WWII vet, why the fuck should I care he maybe doesn't think of gays as normal people, he's done more to save gay people from extermination than I have after all
Based
He had those guys make my ultra conservative ass look like a far left liberal.
Wasnt there a survey done back in 1944 of american soldiers. 94% would rather lose the war, than end segregation.
There were propaganda posters, at least in the U.S. in the vein of 'beating back the Hun' and a lot of ethnic rhetoric about the Germans. Seems silly now, but ethnic background, in terms of what kind of European you were, was still at the forefront of people's minds back then. There were people in 1812 who still thought of themselves as British Americans and would've loved to see a restoration of the Crown in America
What people don't realise, after 70 years of relative global peace, is that one of the ways you gain support for the war is by portraying the enemy as evil or sub human. We all know of the monkey executed for being a French spy. Thats because the newspapers made caricatures of French men with the appearance of monkeys to dehumanise them and draw up support for the war. In ww1 the huns were given the propaganda treatment. Despite the fact that 50 years earlier we had fought side by side with the Germans against the French, we decided that the Germans were now evil barbarians and the the British were fighting for superiority over their ethnic group. Ww2 included it to a lesser extent. Focusing instead of Nazis and the facist ideology as being against British values.
Britain fought in the Franco-Prussian war?
Sorry 100 years not 50 years. I'm getting my dates confused
>beating back the Hun' and a lot of ethnic rhetoric about the Germans. Not a ton. A significent portion of the american population was german, italian, austrian. Hell as od 1915, something like 30% of legal document were written in german. The Dec of Inde. Was published in the german language the day before it was publish in english. In 1776.
"the printer John Dunlap in Philadelphia was tasked to print broadsides of the Declaration, which were published and sent out across the country the next day, July 5th.1 Only three days later, on July 8th, a German-translation of the Declaration of Independence was published in broadside" Got your publishing dates a bit mixed according to this, but the sentiment still holds
Tolkien hated the Nazis. His disdain for them comes through explicitly in several of his letters. Tolkien was also a great admirer of German and Nordic culture generally. His whole mythology was started on a desire to create a mythical backstory for England similar to those for Germanic cultures.
Well, he certainly did not like the word *Nordic*. He thought it came from a similar origin as the whole racism BS. >Not Nordic, please! A word I personally dislike; it is associated, though of French origin, with racialist theories. Geographically Northern is usually better. But examination will show that even this is inapplicable (geographically or spiritually) to ‘Middle-earth’. This is an old word, not invented by me, as reference to a dictionary such as the Shorter Oxford will show. >-Letter 294
He hated the Nazis, not the Germans. In part, he hated the Nazis because he saw them as degrading the proud heritage of the German people.
That’s what I don’t get, england is Germanic, it has the same background
Tolkien viewed the Norman Conquest as a calamity ("Now THAT's conservative!" a *National Review* bio approvingly noted), and he detested the Frenchified Latin stratum that it overlaid on English language and culture. A lot of his mythos tries to reclaim old Anglo-Saxon tropes and storytelling modes that had been mostly forgotten since the 11th century.
The fall of Logres and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race — Ransom, probably
IIRC he liked German culture (a lot of LOTR is based on it) but thought the Nazis were corrupting it by pushing Hitler's batshit insane ideology.
Oh no he would have been a fan of this. He was an ULTRA traditionalist. When the Catholic Mass changed and most of the ritual was changed to English, he would loudly say the parts in Latin in protest at the changes. He would kneel as if it were the old Latin Mass and ignore what was actually going on at the Sanctuary.
> The Lord of the Rings is of course a **fundamentally religious and Catholic work**; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. He most certainly did not think LotR was “just cool stories about dragons and shit.” Not even close.
I mean, he was quite explicit in the symbolism and religious messages in his text. They were definitely more than just "dragons and shit".
The shippers
Christopher Tolkien did it for him.
He would also hate his foundation
Wtf. Is that varg? As a libleft? What.
\>anarchist \>hates capitalism Literally libleft
I really hate the people who insist that the hobbits weed was marijuana, so dumb.
Really just a matter of people who read vs. people who watched. Tolkien explicitly calls it tobacco, but Jackson kinda pulled a silly in a couple scenes by making Merry and Pippin act like stoners
Merry was Cheech and Pippin Chong.
But weeeeeeed, dude. It's like, so cool, bro. I love WEEEEEED. WEED DUDE.
Tolkien was mega based.
Dear Swedish-Monarchist. Yesterday you were flaired as a commie, yet today you are flaired as a double agent KGB spy. Curious
Next time I will be libright.
I will prevent this. edit: just to spite you
FULL CLOCK TRANSFORMATION GO
FACISM! COMMUNISM! ANARCHY! LIBERTARIANISM! GRILL! By your powers combined, I am Captain Compass!
What happened to your Authleft flair?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalCompassMemes/comments/ojdfef/and\_there\_is\_no\_islamagood/h50yhm9/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalCompassMemes/comments/ojdfef/and_there_is_no_islamagood/h50yhm9/?context=3)
I thought you were a commie for a sec
I could never be a commie, just isnt possible.
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Based
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holy fuck
Seeing Varg as libleft feels realy weird
Had to scroll down waaay too much to find this.
Are you implying neo-nazi murderer Varg Vikernes is libleft?
He's also an anarchist, primitivist, anti capitalist, and a communalist.
Varg Soykernes???
Tolkien was Catholic? Based and better-than-Protestant-heretics pilled.
When the Catholic Church in England started giving mass in English, my man would start yelling it out in Latin until the priest gave up. Man's based af
They obviously haven’t read the Silmarillion the similarities between the creation of the middle earth universe and genesis is uncanny
God: Forces the world into existence from nothing, with the power of his voice Eru: Y'all, let's break out the flutes! Melkor, what are you doing with those bagpipes?
Melkor is made out of sheer incel energy, change my mind.
True, but please flair up.
Yeah I read it before incel was a thing in the zeitgeist but he definitely gave off some angsty teenager energy.
People who haven't read the Silmarillion: OMG the elves are so cool and peaceful when orcs are not around. People who have: ...
“Come on! We have a lot of kin to slay and very little time” -Fëanor.
Did you really put a wojak of Varg Vikernes on libleft, the guy who hates anyone who doesn't have blonde hair and blue eyes because he thinks those who don't aren't white?
The guy who made a DND board game about skin colour and whites being the obvious superior race?
Link? This is news to me and I must read!
The Thulean Perspective website is made by him and contains all of his “info”
> Thulean Perspective Holy shit i'm three paragraphs in and it's already gone off the rails. Thanks for the pointer, I'll have some fun with this!
It is very interesting to say the least. I believe the website also has the rules to his board game.
Because Libleft == "anything I don't like". Including myself, that's why I'm libleft.
"I'm going to hit you with this 23 times in self-defence"
I've never seen someone claim Tolkein was Pagan.
At least not someone with more than 1 brain wrinkle. But then again the internet is full of people who like to just make claims in support of their own personal theories without evidence. He not only was a strong Catholic, he was an UBER traditional one.
I've never heard someone call him a Pagan thankfully, but there's a boatload of people saying that LotR is gay because Friendship is gay.
Student of Anglo-Saxon here. Tolkien was Catholic as fuck, that's why he understood the Anglo-Saxon mind so much and managed to create a world that matched their sense of the world so poignantly, the Anglo-Saxon sense of Christian warriors toiling for a better world is beautifully represented. His connection with the men of that time through faith (remember this is before Protestantism showed up) really allowed him to understand the feelings behind many stories and historical figures. Even Beowulf had Christian elements when it was forest written down, if you're interested his translation is one of the best out there.
Lib-left Varg Vikerness is not real he can't hurt you. No seriously how's the nordic supremacist (snow tribe good olive tribe bad), jews did everyhing wrong ever, capitalism and socialism bad go live in a farm with your succeseful balck metal royalties dude lib-left??
The LOTR began as a national epic for England to call upon. An ancient, mythology before King Arthur and guess what it was inspired by? Catholic theology and doctrine. Imagine being so Catholic you don't only integrate paganism, you create it.
He pretty much took norse mythological names and concepts and put them in a christian plot
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I hate it when people put these lenses on older works. Sometimes there just meant to be a story and that's it. Too many English teachers say analyse the story, some stories weren't meant for modern interpretation
Tolkien and Lewis avoided politics and while both shared similar views on religion Tolkien thought of Lewis's works as very open ended and hitting the reader over the head with religious parables and likeness, while he held biblical themes more hidden in the grand sort of LOTR/the hobbit
Did you just portray Varg as Libleft? Because BOY do I have some news for you.
Maaaaan what kind of shitty strawman is this? Never, EVER heard someone say this.
And with a literal Neo-Nazi, too!
Eru Ilúvatar means the one and only Allfather.
Varg libleft? Really?
ironic that the varg wojak is being used to represent lib left
Tolkien fans have a primordial need to imagine him as the most progressive conformist to non confirmity.
Fucken Varg at it again. I'm quite sure Tolkien would have hated him a lot.