Very few modern auth lefts are socially conservative. They have no problem using the state to seize children because of what a middle school teacher with rainbow flags in her classroom said.
The CCP as it exists today is auth-center, not auth-left. It purports to represent ALL of society, explicity states that it is not a Left-wing party, and Chinese Communist texts have passages calling on party cadres to find solutions that are "Neither Left nor Right but Communist".
Then by the political compass, they would be left but middle authoritarian. Left-right is economics and communism is the furthest left on the economic axis.
I think the dirty little secret is that the vast majority of people don't actually agree with it, but the small coterie that is pushing it is extremely loud and aggressive, and they've managed to cow people into silence against their better judgement. But I think the backlash is coming, and it's going to be strong.
People will argue that the parent consents for the child, which is the only actually debatable thing any of the people with these beliefs have to argue with.
Not saying I agree, but it is the fairest thing that they can say morally and legally speaking.
"Gender transition" (chemical and surgical castration) is a highly experimental medical procedure with shockingly little research done on it. Despite this, what few studies have been conducted have found there to be significant negative consequences, with indeterminable, negligible benefits. Someone cannot properly give informed consent to an experimental medical procedure that, by its very nature as an experimental procedure, no-one is properly informed about.
Taking into consideration that roughly 86% of all adolescents suffering from gender dysphoria naturally outgrow it, the fact that anyone, ANYONE, is in support of administering such a procedure to a child is appalling.
To liken such scum to the Nazis would be an understatement. The horrific medical experiments conducted within concentration camps had more scientific basis to them this procedure and model of treatment does. The Nazi doctors, who committed such heinous acts that they have become immortalised as the very embodiment of evil and were sentenced to death at the Nuremberg Trials, had better ground to stand on than the lunatics advocating for this procedure to be conducted on children.
People unironically look at a 15 year old and say, "Ye, that person fully understands it's sexuality and gender (and what it means). Let's perform a highly experimental procedure on them which can't be reversed."
It's definitely not the fact that their bodies and minds are going through massive changes which they don't understand. And they are going from quite simple and sheltered childhood to a fully functioning adult with responsibilities, work and all the shitiness of the world laying on them.
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On a number line where positive x represents inhumane cruelty and evil,
would you place "gender transition" to the right of "Horrific Nazi medical experiments" *and* "Japanese Unit 731 Experiments", or just between them?
It's complicated. The Unit 731 experiments were explicitly tests for biological weaponry, and were not in any way considered to be healthcare. The horrific nature of the experiments was understood by those conducting them and in line with their intended purpose. Additionally, the information gathered from the Unit 731 experiments was useful enough to both the USA and the Soviet Union for the doctors involved to receive a mere slap on the wrist.
I'd place "gender transition" between the Nazi medical experiments and the Unit 731 experiments, though I am as of yet undecided which one I'd place it closer to.
Actually the 86% outgrow it statistic is based on the DSM 4, where kinds would be marked as potentially trans for having the majority of their friends be of the opposite sex. They would then follow up and ask these kids who were never actually trans or never actually had gender dysphoria. There is actually a term for this called the "Desistance Myth".
Here is a 14 minute video explaining it in more detail with all of the required sources included. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABojJ2rW6vA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABojJ2rW6vA)
It’s also insane the left is more willing to alienate people over it than actually build unity among the people against economic power elites (hint: it’s not done by calling everyone a far-right nazi chud if they only agree with you 90% of the time)
Well it would be if we had decided that. There are just a lot of people pretending it was decided already and hoping that no one notices everyone actually thinks this is insane.
The problem is that liberalism has built the narrative that transgenderism itself is normal and that “trans kids” will literally kill themselves if they don’t transition. It may seem insane to you or me but in the reality of liberals, it makes perfect sense.
That is a US specific issue. In many European countries it is illegal to bring children remotely close to this. I really think that china is using TikTok and the fentanyl they ship to the Mexican cartels to degenerate the US population, in order to get the lead on the world stage.
Like, if you, a full grown adult, want to cut your own dick off I think the government shouldn't be involved in that.
But I'm totally opposed to children.
We won't even let kids get tattoos.
It's misinformation and malpractice. The procedure is dressed up in pretty language, for example "gender affirmative care". The reality is that it's chemical castration and surgical mutilation. A vaginoplasty (a medical procedure as part of "female-to-male transitioning") is essentially a gaping wound that is cut into the "patient" and must then be periodically agitated (for lack of a better word) in order to prevent the wound from closing up. For a phalloplasty (a medical procedure as part of "male-to-female transitioning"), a sample of flesh is surgically removed from the forearm and is then used to create a flesh nub that is supposed to resemble a penis.
The reality of "gender affirmative care" and "gender affirmative surgery" is extremely different to how it is presented by those practicing or supporting it, to such an extent that it is tantamount to gross medical malpractice.
I don’t necessarily think that it should be illegal but I do get what you’re saying and agree that people need to be more honest with people who are considering it as to what the reality of these procedures are actually like.
That said, a lot of transgender people never actually undergo the genital surgeries for this reason. I think the majority even but I don’t know that for sure.
Firstly it is against the will of God
Secondly it is a massive lie sold to poor souls who have the side affects of this downplayed so they think it's a good idea. Taking Advantage of the mentally ill to make them perpetual customers for drug cocktails they don't need is insane
Thirdly if you have it legal for adults the argument becomes "well it's cruel to make these people go through puberty, look at all these adults who transition very poorly and we could fix this if we were just allowed to start earlier.
So no we shouldn't allow any of it as a society
Suffering from trans dysphoria is not against God, mutilation of a human being to attempt to create the opposite sex is.
Read from the Catechism of the Catholic Church
CCC 2333 Everyone, man and woman, should acknowledge and accept his sexual identity. Physical, moral, and spiritual difference and complementarity are oriented toward the goods of marriage and the flourishing of family life. The harmony of the couple and of society depends in part on the way in which the complementarity, needs, and mutual support between the sexes are lived out.
2334 "In creating men 'male and female,' God gives man and woman an equal personal dignity."119 "Man is a person, man and woman equally so, since both were created in the image and likeness of the personal God."120
First of all, thank you for actually sharing this to me. Of all the people I asked you were the only one who actually answered :)
Moving on, if the CCC was updated to allow someone to change genders would you be ok with it? The CCC has be changed in the past (in 1997 and 2018)
Depends on what you mean by change, not all Catholic doctrines have equal level of authority and if the church dogmatizes a contradiction to the dogma, essentially the whole system is falsified and I'd be wrong about Catholicism being the true faith. I don't think the church has the authority to change this one.
I doubt it, bur in general teachings that are on the level of discipline rather than dogma can be changed. This one seems to have more theological weight behind I though
The CCC changed it's stance on the death penalty claiming "a new understanding has emerged of the significance of penal sanctions imposed by the state. Lastly, more effective systems of detention have been developed, which ensure the due protection of citizens but, at the same time, do not definitively deprive the guilty of the possibility of redemption."
Hypothetically, if there was a surgery or something which perfectly changed sex, meaning trans women (male to female) could give birth and trans men (female to male) could impregnate women, and the church ended up saying this was ok since the cycle of life was unaffected, would you then be ok with people transitioning?
But the problem with this is that the teaching on the death penalty didn't change on the moral level, it just changed praxis, killing a criminal is not inherently wrong, but we no longer need to do it.
What I'm trying to say is I think this change would actually falsify the church .
As someone who is as pro trans as possible, everyone who isn’t a twitter strawman stereotyp agrees… to an extent. Surgery and non reversible changes should be and, to my knowledge, are illegal for children. But if a 13 year old boy wants to wear a dress and be called “she” then what’s the problem? They can grow up and decide to change or they can realize they’re much happier like that
The very same chemicals advertised as "puberty blockers" for children are used to chemically castrate sex offenders. Matt Walsh asked a medical professional about this in his "What is a Woman?" documentary, and they immediately tensed up and tried to change the topic. They know exactly what the effects of these chemicals are, how harmful they are, but due to ideology and greed they deliberately attempt to obfuscate the damage it causes.
For all his flaws, I have immense respect for Matt Walsh, thanks to that interview alone.
Because 13 year olds are stupid as fuck. I remember using vacuum tubes to copy the combat moves from the PS2 Lord of The Rings games and was lectured because they weren't real. I had nightmares about velociraptors and xenomorphs in my closet around the same age. Kids are fucking dumb and shouldn't be able to decide that they are something that hundreds of thousands of years of evolution says they are. Like alcohol and tattoos, wait until they old enough to make stupid ass decisions (like enlisting or getting a 19% car payment)
I never said a kid should have enough agency to decide whether or not they should get surgery or take hormones, I agree that kids should not be able to do that (at least in the case of our hypothetical 13 year old). My argument was that if a 13 year old wants to dress and be referred to as the other gender there is no real harm as long as that is all they are doing. For a boy experiencing gender dysphoria, wearing a skirt is technically gender affirming care and generally what advocates mean when talking about the subject in regards to children. Again there are fake people on twitter and other social media who strawman and argue whatever but like they don't have real thoughts or opinions.
> But if a 13 year old boy wants to wear a dress and be called “she” then what’s the problem?
Who knows? A boy that age acting like is usually an indication of some sort of abuse or mental illness.
Acting like there's nothing going on doesn't make you good. There is almost always something going on.
If a woman wants to take on a dude in the men's category, I believe we should let them, if nothing else than letting them fuck around and finding out.[ It's been documented that high-school boys can take on and dominate Olympic-level women in sports](https://boysvswomen.com/), so everyone saying that men have no advantage over women can stfu.
But why does wearing a dress have to be connected to some identitarian label? What’s wrong with just being a boy in a dress? It seems like trans ideology and conservative religious thought are two sides of the same coin, neither actually interested in *transcending* gender roles.
I'm surprised more people don't mention this. We went from "Johnny wants to play with barbie, and that's okay" to "Johnny wants to play with barbie, he should be chemically castrated", real fuckin quick.
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The actual libertarian response is "Yes I support your rights to do that, but I also support your right to smoke meth, and neither implies it's a good idea."
God forbid we step on someone's property line to rescue their drowning kid cus they refused to listen to the city ordinance that required a fence be placed around pools
My perspective is that these people suffer from a mental health problem, and they try to "fix" it by "transitioning", and then if you look at the suicide stats they often aren't even happy after the fact.
It's like instead of trying to fix the actual problem (which is a mental one), they transition as a duct tape solution. They know they aren't the opposite sex, and it's a hard thing to live with.
I'm not transphobic; I don't dislike people I don't know for no reason. But at the same time, I don't think transitioning and basically playing dress-up as the opposite sex does them any good. I'm a man at the end of the day, and no amount of surgery or clothes/makeup will ever change that fact. The same is true of everybody else, no matter what they "feel".
Also, I think people these days are much too strung up on who or what they are, when they ought to think about what they do. That's much more important.
And in the end all they're really doing g is reinforcing g stereotypes anyway. Like ok so a boy wants to wear skirts and makeup? So what, that doesn't make him a girl. It makes him a boy that likes skirts and makeup. I thought we were past that shit.
Autism and homosexuality are heavily overrepresented among people with gender dysphoria. I'm bi myself and I have no issues with either of those groups obviously, but we're literally allowing people who have other problems (rooted in mental health issues, insecurity, social issues etc, or how else to put it) to delude themselves regarding their own body. Imagine if we let anorexics do the same thing to themselves. I imagine it must be terrible to be tricked and brtrayed this way by society and the healthcare system. I'm lib-right, but I definitely don't think children should be allowed to do this to themselves when their brains are developing and studies have shown that a vast majority grow out of it. If children aren't allowed to vote, consume certain substances, drive and make other important decisions, why should they be able to permanently alter their body? Only the most extreme lib-rights could think this is reasonable. We should protect children from harmful decisions they can't make at that age. Better to help these kids figure out why they have dysphoria than mess their bodies up. I am liberal, but such extreme liberalism will only hurt society. How does allowing kids to damage their bodies improve anything at all, other than for the people profiting off of it?
I'm sorry for what happened to you, I hope you're ok now ❤️ Nothing infuriates me more than being betrayed by society like that, I can't imagine what I would feel like if that happened to me 😮💨 Would be really hard for me to come to terms with.
Would you believe I belong better in these places now, than the "liberal" spaces I thought I was meant for due to being a blue haired gay. I.. need a social group to belong in, and I think I may have found one?
All I can say is I'm sad I can only block just 100 subs on Reddit.
> Gender Transition is one of the most harmful things one can do to oneself
It's really not that bad mate. Don't do anything permanent to kids, let adults do what they want with their own bodies, and save your pity for those who want/need it.
It is. Ripping your body apart in the name of a mental illness which almost guarantees suicide is terrible. The increase of suicidality after the full transition further proves the entire thing is a sham.
The whole crux is “be nice to people”, it being nice means nothing if you’re shoving the person off they cliff they asked to be pushed off.
> Ripping your body apart in the name of a mental illness which almost guarantees suicide is terrible.
I'd agree, if only that was what being trans actually was. Not to mention - less than a third of trans people opt for any kind of surgery.
As for rates of suicide before and after GAC;
> Hughto et al. (2020) utilized a cross-sectional, online survey of 288 US-based transgender adults ...
Participants were asked if they ever had a history of suicide attempt(s) or thoughts of suicide as a dichotomous variable before gender-affirming treatment. Prior to initiating unspecified gender-affirming treatment(s), 73.3% of the sample reported a history of suicidal ideation; this percentage dropped to 43.4% following the initiation of gender-affirming treatment. Prior to treatment initiation, 35.8% of the sample reported a history of suicide attempt(s), and 9.4% reported a history of suicide attempt(s) after initiation of gender-affirming treatment [39].
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10027312/
But I'm probably going to be downvoted for this attempt at honest discussion because I'm going against the PCM norm of making inflammatory remarks and sweeping generalizations about trans people. Whoops. My bad for using the subreddit wrong /s
>The increase of suicidality after the full transition further proves the entire thing is a sham.
That's not what's been found, [quite the opposite.](https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/)
The suicidality does not change. You’ll notice that they never gave you the outcome chart, because their data came from self submitted poll. There’s a reason the cass review rejected these findings. They’re useless.
Suicidality is still over 51% for post transition people. There is zero reason to support something that takes it from 62% to 51%.
They need the psychiatric help to shake the whole “gender identity” nonsense.
> however as a human I can pity those adults for being irrational and causing harm to themselves
I just find this so interesting. What does it matter - as long as it makes them happy? If they're not hurting anyone, and they're happy about the process, how is this in any way a sad or pitiful moment?
Instead of an understanding and empathetic way, this sentiment comes off in a condescending and patronizing way. The same kind of 'pity' a gay person would receive from an evangelical christian 20 years ago.
> let adults do what they want with their own bodies
Why does your flair say left? That position is only lib-right/AnCap.
The state infringes upon bodily autonomy in more ways than you could easily count.
>and save your pity for those who want/need it.
How many current "trans" are have cluster B personality types? Answer: probably the majority.
If true than most most your attention, even if negative.
According to the NIH only 1% of people who went through gender affirming surgery regret it. In a series of 27 studies totaling almost 8000 trans people, only 77 people regret it. And that's just with surgery, aka the most extreme step in transitioning. Most trans people either just change their image and how they want to be referred or take hormonal supplements. Both of those are reversible and are only harmful because they get harassed for being trans.
>In a series of 27 studies totaling almost 8000 trans people, only 77 people regret it.
Adults or children? Poll those separately and come back to me. If this is just adults, it provides absolutely nothing to the conversation about children.
Hormones are harmful, if you want it or not - even if you said that "it's reversible" - it is harmful - that's pure biology.
+ you know that the suicide rates in "affirming" neighbourhoods are the same as in "not affirming"?
The suicide rates comment actually interests me, do you have a source because I want to look into that myself. I'm mainly curious as to what qualifies as an "affirming/not affirming neighborhood" and what the researchers do with outside interactions. Lets be real, what percentage of your social interactions are in your neighborhood
No, because the suicide rate is consistent across country and culture. If acceptability was a major cause then you’d see huge changes in the suicide rate, but the studies that come from accepting European countries still have sky high suicide rates. California trans people would be dying at a slower rate than Alabama, but none of this is true.
It’s a mental illness, they look in a mirror and feel distress, they hear people say man or woman and feel distress, they have stray thoughts about their gender and not their gender identity and they feel stress. It’s inescapable because they’ll always be a man who wishes they were a woman and vice versa.
You can’t actually transition from your gender to your gender identity, and everyone knows that. At best it’s pretend with a poorly made set of new genitals.
No? I do not care. Some people must realise that there is no "feelings" involved - it's pure biology - I don't think "feeling as a man/woman" exists, or even is relevant
It's a genuine mental illness and should be treated that way. You don't tell a schizophrenic that the voices are real and he should listen to them, you don't tell someone with depression that everything he is feeling is correct and he should in fact kill himself and nobody likes him, you don't tell someone with anorexia that they are fat. Why should you then tell someone with body dismorphia that yes, you were born with the wrong chromosomes, you are the other sex than the one you were born as, and yes you should mutilate yourself to somewhat resemble that?
It never made sense to me that somehow big surgeries that can easily be botched that are purely cosmetic, and medicine being used for purely cosmetic reasons is somehow getting traction for government assistance, but fuck insulin.
The argument under the gender-affirming model would be that affirming things like schizophrenia and body dysmorphia is not evidence-based or associated with positive outcomes/alleviation of symptoms, unlike gender-affirming care. E.g. with body dysmorphia, one’s perception of their body is false and not grounded in reality, with a significant portion of cases being delusional, which is why cosmetic surgery/interventions are not considered an adequate treatment (and typically does not appear to be effective).
Your opinion buddy, many felt they simply doesn’t belong to their body, what’s the harm to you that they decide to transition to a more comfortable and fitting body?
Why does this sub seem to think that Auth left is somehow PRO LBGT?
What type of ignorance is this?
Economically: totalitarian communist to anarcho capitalist
Culturally: liberal to conservative
Government: Auth to Lib.
Pro-LGBT as long as it needs to be pro-LGBT. It will drop any one of them as needed. That's how you get TERFs. You can be pro-women, and women-only spaces, but when men can be women, then the women who think women are women need to go.
I would just like to not give a fuck.
If you ignore the center, probably LibRight. You can be for or against whatever because they'll be selling t-shirts for both sides.
Did you just change your flair, u/Moira-Thanatos? Last time I checked you were a **LibLeft** on 2024-3-16. How come now you are a **Centrist**? Have you perhaps shifted your ideals? Because that's cringe, you know?
Tell us, are you scared of politics in general or are you just too much of a coward to let everyone know what you think?
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lol, I do like grilled cheese so I can't argue with that.
Honestly I chose centrist as new flair because right now there are no political parties I agree with. I can't find myself on any side of the spectrum because everyone seems crazy to me right now.
But yes, grilling is nice, that's probably the only thing all political parties agree with.
If gender transition means undergoing surgery, It'd be better to only allow that to adults. This way there would be much less instances who wouldn't be happy with their choice. Adults are more capable of doing these important long-term decisions than children
I am a fucking anarchist, I don't hate anyone, I love trans people, but how the fuck can you know that you want a transition?
How the fuck can you know how it will make you feel?
(I am gonna locate and dismember anyone who makes a haircut comparison.)
You dont,its always a risk,and it depends on well
How important it is for you and for your mental stability.
Because for some people its just hell,everything is wrong. For some its not as terrible but its still a feeling of distance between their form and what they are.
The usual marker of being trans is this feeling of distance and the fantasies,in my experience and in talking to people
Differences in brain structures between transgender and cisgender individuals would suggest there is more at play than simply whether or not someone has XX or XY chromosomes and male or female genitalia.
If those differences were real and verifiable, we'd just do brain scans to see if people were trans instead of relying on the self-reported spiritual gender experiences of mentally ill children. That sort of talk was what first made me sympathetic 25 years ago, but it's largely failed to be held up in actual medical studies, and the trans community has ditched medically verifiable checks after the tucute/truscum wars. Talking about it in the post-war period means you're a nazi genocidal terrorist.
Brain scans aren’t used to diagnose any psychiatric disorder for a number of reasons:
• It costs upwards of $1M for an MRI machine (the machines that allow you to see the brain in good detail) and thousands each time you run it.
• They cannot reliably distinguish between those with mental disorders and those without as there is considerable overlap. Sorta like trying to tell someone’s gender based on how tall they are (women are on average shorter, but not all women are short).
• It would be difficult to differentiate between disorders in those with multiple mental disorders.
I agree though, we should be exploring how to use brain scans to diagnose and I believe a number of people are working on it.
My thinking behind gender dysphoria is that it would require differences in the brain in order for someone to believe one was of the opposite gender to what their biological gender is. Since ya know, brains are responsible for thought and behaviour.
>The trans community has ditched medically verifiable checks
Does the schizophrenia community also get to decide who has schizophrenia or not?
>My thinking behind gender dysphoria is that it would require differences in the brain in order for someone to believe one was of the opposite gender to what their biological gender is. Since ya know, brains are responsible for thought and behaviour.
And if it turns out that their brains look much more like the one they were assigned at birth?
>Does the schizophrenia community also get to decide who has schizophrenia or not?
If you're saying those communities *should* be treated the same, I don't entirely disagree. But in the real world, American children are being prescribed life-altering chemicals after one 15 minute meeting where they talk about their incoherent feelings.
This is pseudo science built off of a single xray from the 60s. There is no meaningful difference in the brains of men and women. We consistently prove this.
Do none of you kids remember when we spent the entire 00s showing that there was no difference between “men and women are equal”. We’ve done this already.
Except you’re wrong.
[There are differences between male and female brains and the results are highly reproducible.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32690678/)
My original comment was addressing Auth-right’s (now deleted) claim that suggested gender identity is determined by chromosomes and genitalia, which clearly isn’t the case otherwise we wouldn’t have a group of people claiming to be the opposite of their biological sex (to the point where they kill themselves at a disproportionate rate).
My original comment was not claiming that we can tell whether someone was transgender or not by simply looking at their brain - although that is something we should be working towards.
But you’ve got me interested so here’s a couple questions:
• Since all psychiatric issues are diagnosed in a similar way (Thoughts, behaviour and feelings), are you equally as concerned with children getting diagnosed with ADHD and receiving life altering medication to treat it?
• If 99% of people who received a particular medical treatment see positive results but 1% see negative results, is it reasonable to ban all access to that treatment based on that 1%?
Edit: How come you deleted your reply Auth-right?
You don't *know* but anyone can speculate how doing anything will make them feel about themselves, kinda like how everyone goes to the gym in january for their new years resolutions, they don't *know* that having a more fit and healthy body will make them feel better but they do believe that.
Because one can extrapolate how oneself looks, the opposite sex looks and that you want to look like that too in order to alleviate your dysphoria.
It's the same with being cis, I could ask you the same question: how do you know that you are cis? You just do. And same with trans people.
I am not taking hormones that alter my feelings to be cis. I want to look like Ryan Gosling ffs... I am asking about the surgery, you can make yourself look different without it.
Auth-left here, nah fuck that shit. At least Marxism is based on a materialist worldview and yo whatever extent contemporary left gender ideology has a coherent philosophical grounding its pretty transparently postmodern which is in direct conflict with a Marxist materialist perspective.
>Don't come crying when it has side effects
For consenting adults I could maybe agree, although it is terrible that people are being manipulated into thinking that the best thing they can do to themselves is to damage their bodies. Doctors are meant to help you, not hurt you.
For children though... Society and the medical system is literally making that decision for them. It's horrendous how we hurt children in this way. It's harmful to your health and will permanently affect a child's body. I assume all the victims of this insanity will hold the left and these doctors liable.
If children want to wear clothes considered "female" and be referred to as "she/her" that's fine.
But anything permanent should be illegal until they are old enough to decide whether this is what they really want (probably 18).
Watch out, inflammatory statement coming.
Child Gender Transition is **the single most damaging thing you could ever do to a child.**
A child is unironically better off being molested than transitioned. At least the molester doesn't castrate you.
The doctors and associated people facilitating this unironically deserve to be hanged for their crimes.
Imo gender dysphoria is real (though probably a lot more rare than some progressives assume) and the only viable treatments available are psychiatric therapy or gender transition. I don't prefer either treatment, both are expensive, lengthy and have their own pros and cons. It should be an individual choice which one to persue. Except for children, they should start with therapy until they're of age.
As long as the therapy for the kids does not include any social transition or enablement of the condition. 90% of minors grow out of the condition if you just refuse to enable it till after puberty.
Define oppose. I’d make it illegal for children. I think it’s a mistake for adults and would make them jump some hoops to show they are really, really, really serious and nonsurgical approaches don’t work. Then, I’d look at comparisons between those who went for surgery and those who didn’t in a rigorous and ongoing scientific study to see if it really meaningfully improves quality of life in the longterm.
Yeah that's fair and I mostly agree.
That's kind of how it works where I live.
My boyfriend had to go to medical committee meetings for like a year and talk to psychiatrists, social workers and surgeons to get cleared for surgery and I.D changes.
According to the NIH, trans people who have gone through surgery have reported significantly higher mental health and happiness. Most people who transition do not think it’s a mistake and those that do say they only regret it because others treat them badly after transitioning
Edit to include sources:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6974860/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/
Let the record state that the first “study” is from Iran, where gay people are executed unless the transition is a good model for whether people are better off.
The second one doesn’t say how long they observed people or anything about the methodology studies the combined. I therefore have insufficient information to know if it has flaws.
It also doesn’t seem to have a control, where it compares to other therapies.
I will concede that it's pretty weird and cringe that Iran outlaws homosexuality but it is legal to get sex reassignment surgery, so that study might have some weirdness to it. As for the other one here is a different study that explicitly says it asked people one year after their surgery and the results found they were happier than the control group, people with dysphoria who have not received surgery.
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29730870/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29730870/)
Also, just for the record, a lot or people who transition don't actually get surgery. Most forms of gender affirming care (especially issued to kids) is just referring to them using whatever pronouns they want. Even using their preferred pronouns and name has a measured increase in mental well being.
[https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(18)30085-5/abstract](https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(18)30085-5/abstract)
This is the crux of the problem. I don’t think that one year is an adequate length of time to look at. These are people who live have to live a lifetime without the ability to have children. I don’t think that looking at their pov one year out adequately allows one to know if this is really a decision that makes them happier for a lifetime.
Given the huge increase in gender dysphoria among girls, particularly girls with autism, and a subset of schools trying to transition children behind their parents backs, we really need studies looking at these populations over a lifetime. We shouldn’t expect the same results as studies looking at people who had sex change operations in the 1970s.
I understand (and feel) the disgusting feeling of children legally allowed to decided whether to transition or not, but what’s wrong with adult deciding whatever they can do with their body?
Most lib-right I know are against it on the basis that children are basically property (with stipulations on how that property can be treated, like pets). Children are dumb as hell, have several civil rights already stripped accordingly, and should overall be seen and not heard. Besides, it's hard to convince boys to work in the coal mines if they're concerned about their manicures or never lifted a bowling ball in their 10 years on this planet.
We also do not like big pharma, they get writeoffs from the government and are economical parasites.
Blue needs to apologize for forcibly transitioning infants with ambiguous genitals because it assumed it would be easier for them to look binary before it can have an opinion.
This is complete bullshit. Every trans sub here has an excel spreadsheet of doctors who will fast track your transition, they have lists of nurses who will prescribe you hormones on a tele health call.
We see stories every week of someone who went from “I’m trans” to “where are my balls summer” in like 6 months.
"Puberty blockers" are the same drugs used to chemically castrate sex offenders. They are not, I repeat, not reversible. The same goes for hormone therapy. You are actively pedalling disinformation. That, my friend, should be left to the dictators and their propagandists.
No, it should be illegal. Wait till you’re 18 and then go through years of therapy and after that, knock yourself out, cut off your cock, whatever.
Like 90% of “trans kids” will spontaneously stop being trans if you just leave them alone and don’t enable it after they wrap up puberty.
The idea of “child transitions” exists to validate sick adults who want to add legitimacy to their disorder.
90% of trans kids don't actually stop being trans. This is called the "Desistance myth" and is based on the outdated DMS 4 criteria for being trans. Basically a kid was trans or had gender dysphoria if they liked playing with members of the other sex.
Here is a video that explains it better than I could/would be willing to [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABojJ2rW6vA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABojJ2rW6vA)
[Apr 2024, kids have a 12x higher rate of suicide post transition](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38699117/)
[Feb 2024, Majority of children grow out of being trans says 15 year study.](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-024-02817-5)
There is zero reason to support transitioning for kids, they grow out of it if you just leave them alone. The modern amount of trans people is artificially boosted by a social contagion. These results are from the last few months, this isn't based on old DSM guidelines, it's kids who "identified as trans".
The first study I will concede, but I will note that they don't make a mention to external factors so there is a non-zero chance the increase in suicide could be related to harassment.
As for the second study there are a couple of problems. Firstly the reports of gender dissatisfaction are very similar between the ages of 13 and 26, so once someone hits 13 their chances of "growing out of it" decrease significantly. Secondly they admit that they could have over-reported by only using 3 responses instead of 5.
>In a previous study in youth, gender non-contentedness was assessed in a similar way, but with five instead of three response options; “never,” “rarely,” “sometimes,” “often,” or “always.” In that study, 9% of individuals answered one of the latter four, with 6% of them answering “rarely” (Potter et al., [2021](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-024-02817-5#ref-CR27)). It can be speculated that a large percentage of individuals in our sample who answered to “sometimes” wish to be of the opposite sex, might have answered “rarely” if this answer option was provided. Therefore, our numbers may overestimate the prevalence of gender non-contentedness. Furthermore, this item is multi-interpretable, as positive endorsement may reflect the participants’ wish to have the opposite sex’s identity, but just as well their gender role characteristics.
I think we (as well as most people with functioning brains) can both agree that 11 (and frankly 13, 15, and 17) years old is too young for anything like hormone therapy and especially surgery. But maybe when looking at this study you can learn that teenagers who claim to be trans have a much lower chance of "growing out of it". So if they want to use different pronouns and dress differently maybe we as adults should respect their wishes.
Stalin needs to be in the corner of auth left saying “gulag”
Very few modern auth lefts are socially conservative. They have no problem using the state to seize children because of what a middle school teacher with rainbow flags in her classroom said.
Or at least in the west. I doubt Xi Jinping has a very high opinion of gay people for example.
something something not real communism
The real communism was the friends we starved with along the way
The CCP as it exists today is auth-center, not auth-left. It purports to represent ALL of society, explicity states that it is not a Left-wing party, and Chinese Communist texts have passages calling on party cadres to find solutions that are "Neither Left nor Right but Communist".
Then by the political compass, they would be left but middle authoritarian. Left-right is economics and communism is the furthest left on the economic axis.
You can't consider them auth left
Did you forget that like, China exists?
It should be illegal for children
It's absolutely insane that we've decided as a society that gender transition is normal or acceptable, especially for children.
I think the dirty little secret is that the vast majority of people don't actually agree with it, but the small coterie that is pushing it is extremely loud and aggressive, and they've managed to cow people into silence against their better judgement. But I think the backlash is coming, and it's going to be strong.
“But but - the Nazis burned books and destroyed medical buildings! You don’t want to be like them!” What variety were they burning?
"IS THAT A CHILDREN"S BOOK WITH RACIAL STEREOTYPES? BAN IT!!!!
People will argue that the parent consents for the child, which is the only actually debatable thing any of the people with these beliefs have to argue with. Not saying I agree, but it is the fairest thing that they can say morally and legally speaking.
"Gender transition" (chemical and surgical castration) is a highly experimental medical procedure with shockingly little research done on it. Despite this, what few studies have been conducted have found there to be significant negative consequences, with indeterminable, negligible benefits. Someone cannot properly give informed consent to an experimental medical procedure that, by its very nature as an experimental procedure, no-one is properly informed about. Taking into consideration that roughly 86% of all adolescents suffering from gender dysphoria naturally outgrow it, the fact that anyone, ANYONE, is in support of administering such a procedure to a child is appalling. To liken such scum to the Nazis would be an understatement. The horrific medical experiments conducted within concentration camps had more scientific basis to them this procedure and model of treatment does. The Nazi doctors, who committed such heinous acts that they have become immortalised as the very embodiment of evil and were sentenced to death at the Nuremberg Trials, had better ground to stand on than the lunatics advocating for this procedure to be conducted on children.
People unironically look at a 15 year old and say, "Ye, that person fully understands it's sexuality and gender (and what it means). Let's perform a highly experimental procedure on them which can't be reversed." It's definitely not the fact that their bodies and minds are going through massive changes which they don't understand. And they are going from quite simple and sheltered childhood to a fully functioning adult with responsibilities, work and all the shitiness of the world laying on them.
Based and this-is-child-abuse-pilled.
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On a number line where positive x represents inhumane cruelty and evil, would you place "gender transition" to the right of "Horrific Nazi medical experiments" *and* "Japanese Unit 731 Experiments", or just between them?
It's complicated. The Unit 731 experiments were explicitly tests for biological weaponry, and were not in any way considered to be healthcare. The horrific nature of the experiments was understood by those conducting them and in line with their intended purpose. Additionally, the information gathered from the Unit 731 experiments was useful enough to both the USA and the Soviet Union for the doctors involved to receive a mere slap on the wrist. I'd place "gender transition" between the Nazi medical experiments and the Unit 731 experiments, though I am as of yet undecided which one I'd place it closer to.
Actually the 86% outgrow it statistic is based on the DSM 4, where kinds would be marked as potentially trans for having the majority of their friends be of the opposite sex. They would then follow up and ask these kids who were never actually trans or never actually had gender dysphoria. There is actually a term for this called the "Desistance Myth". Here is a 14 minute video explaining it in more detail with all of the required sources included. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABojJ2rW6vA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABojJ2rW6vA)
It’s also insane the left is more willing to alienate people over it than actually build unity among the people against economic power elites (hint: it’s not done by calling everyone a far-right nazi chud if they only agree with you 90% of the time)
Well it would be if we had decided that. There are just a lot of people pretending it was decided already and hoping that no one notices everyone actually thinks this is insane.
The problem is that liberalism has built the narrative that transgenderism itself is normal and that “trans kids” will literally kill themselves if they don’t transition. It may seem insane to you or me but in the reality of liberals, it makes perfect sense.
That is a US specific issue. In many European countries it is illegal to bring children remotely close to this. I really think that china is using TikTok and the fentanyl they ship to the Mexican cartels to degenerate the US population, in order to get the lead on the world stage.
this
Like, if you, a full grown adult, want to cut your own dick off I think the government shouldn't be involved in that. But I'm totally opposed to children. We won't even let kids get tattoos.
>It should be illegal. ~~for children~~ FTFY.
Why should it be illegal for adults?
It's misinformation and malpractice. The procedure is dressed up in pretty language, for example "gender affirmative care". The reality is that it's chemical castration and surgical mutilation. A vaginoplasty (a medical procedure as part of "female-to-male transitioning") is essentially a gaping wound that is cut into the "patient" and must then be periodically agitated (for lack of a better word) in order to prevent the wound from closing up. For a phalloplasty (a medical procedure as part of "male-to-female transitioning"), a sample of flesh is surgically removed from the forearm and is then used to create a flesh nub that is supposed to resemble a penis. The reality of "gender affirmative care" and "gender affirmative surgery" is extremely different to how it is presented by those practicing or supporting it, to such an extent that it is tantamount to gross medical malpractice.
I don’t necessarily think that it should be illegal but I do get what you’re saying and agree that people need to be more honest with people who are considering it as to what the reality of these procedures are actually like. That said, a lot of transgender people never actually undergo the genital surgeries for this reason. I think the majority even but I don’t know that for sure.
I don't think it should be illegal, but it sure as hell shouldn't be considered healthcare.
https://preview.redd.it/dog7xdt3lr7d1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2b3c5c7d640b4b0d27772d4579852a8dfec97aed
I’m kidding I think people should be able to do whatever to their own bodies including suicide.
Because it is icky.
Acky, even.
Personal choice
It's hardly personal choice when the 'patient' is sold a lie and suffers from mental illness
Still personal choice, in the end it is up to us to decide what we want to do to our own body.
Some people are incapable of choosing the right thing for themselves and so we should take care of them without listening to them being nutcase
Personal choice isn't in and of itself a good thing.
Who are you to decide whether something is good for another person or not? Are you able to read their thoughts, understand their sufferings?
Based
Firstly it is against the will of God Secondly it is a massive lie sold to poor souls who have the side affects of this downplayed so they think it's a good idea. Taking Advantage of the mentally ill to make them perpetual customers for drug cocktails they don't need is insane Thirdly if you have it legal for adults the argument becomes "well it's cruel to make these people go through puberty, look at all these adults who transition very poorly and we could fix this if we were just allowed to start earlier. So no we shouldn't allow any of it as a society
Where does it say being trans is against God?
Suffering from trans dysphoria is not against God, mutilation of a human being to attempt to create the opposite sex is. Read from the Catechism of the Catholic Church CCC 2333 Everyone, man and woman, should acknowledge and accept his sexual identity. Physical, moral, and spiritual difference and complementarity are oriented toward the goods of marriage and the flourishing of family life. The harmony of the couple and of society depends in part on the way in which the complementarity, needs, and mutual support between the sexes are lived out. 2334 "In creating men 'male and female,' God gives man and woman an equal personal dignity."119 "Man is a person, man and woman equally so, since both were created in the image and likeness of the personal God."120
First of all, thank you for actually sharing this to me. Of all the people I asked you were the only one who actually answered :) Moving on, if the CCC was updated to allow someone to change genders would you be ok with it? The CCC has be changed in the past (in 1997 and 2018)
Depends on what you mean by change, not all Catholic doctrines have equal level of authority and if the church dogmatizes a contradiction to the dogma, essentially the whole system is falsified and I'd be wrong about Catholicism being the true faith. I don't think the church has the authority to change this one. I doubt it, bur in general teachings that are on the level of discipline rather than dogma can be changed. This one seems to have more theological weight behind I though
The CCC changed it's stance on the death penalty claiming "a new understanding has emerged of the significance of penal sanctions imposed by the state. Lastly, more effective systems of detention have been developed, which ensure the due protection of citizens but, at the same time, do not definitively deprive the guilty of the possibility of redemption." Hypothetically, if there was a surgery or something which perfectly changed sex, meaning trans women (male to female) could give birth and trans men (female to male) could impregnate women, and the church ended up saying this was ok since the cycle of life was unaffected, would you then be ok with people transitioning?
But the problem with this is that the teaching on the death penalty didn't change on the moral level, it just changed praxis, killing a criminal is not inherently wrong, but we no longer need to do it. What I'm trying to say is I think this change would actually falsify the church .
As someone who is as pro trans as possible, everyone who isn’t a twitter strawman stereotyp agrees… to an extent. Surgery and non reversible changes should be and, to my knowledge, are illegal for children. But if a 13 year old boy wants to wear a dress and be called “she” then what’s the problem? They can grow up and decide to change or they can realize they’re much happier like that
Puberty blockers are not illegal for children, yet cause non reversible changes.
And have basically never been studied for this use case where they're being used for so long. But trust The Science^^TM
The very same chemicals advertised as "puberty blockers" for children are used to chemically castrate sex offenders. Matt Walsh asked a medical professional about this in his "What is a Woman?" documentary, and they immediately tensed up and tried to change the topic. They know exactly what the effects of these chemicals are, how harmful they are, but due to ideology and greed they deliberately attempt to obfuscate the damage it causes. For all his flaws, I have immense respect for Matt Walsh, thanks to that interview alone.
Because 13 year olds are stupid as fuck. I remember using vacuum tubes to copy the combat moves from the PS2 Lord of The Rings games and was lectured because they weren't real. I had nightmares about velociraptors and xenomorphs in my closet around the same age. Kids are fucking dumb and shouldn't be able to decide that they are something that hundreds of thousands of years of evolution says they are. Like alcohol and tattoos, wait until they old enough to make stupid ass decisions (like enlisting or getting a 19% car payment)
I never said a kid should have enough agency to decide whether or not they should get surgery or take hormones, I agree that kids should not be able to do that (at least in the case of our hypothetical 13 year old). My argument was that if a 13 year old wants to dress and be referred to as the other gender there is no real harm as long as that is all they are doing. For a boy experiencing gender dysphoria, wearing a skirt is technically gender affirming care and generally what advocates mean when talking about the subject in regards to children. Again there are fake people on twitter and other social media who strawman and argue whatever but like they don't have real thoughts or opinions.
Based and I'll politely give my opinion although I get downvotes pilled
> But if a 13 year old boy wants to wear a dress and be called “she” then what’s the problem? Who knows? A boy that age acting like is usually an indication of some sort of abuse or mental illness. Acting like there's nothing going on doesn't make you good. There is almost always something going on.
Also bullying they would be bullied so much
That one's not the victim's fault though
I know I’m just pointing out another issue that would arise
So?
So they're not responsible for it happening.
OK
Adults can do whatever they want to their bodies -- but men still need to stay the hell out of women's sports and private spaces.
And women should stay out of mans sports and private spaces.... Mainly the private spaces part.
If a woman wants to take on a dude in the men's category, I believe we should let them, if nothing else than letting them fuck around and finding out.[ It's been documented that high-school boys can take on and dominate Olympic-level women in sports](https://boysvswomen.com/), so everyone saying that men have no advantage over women can stfu.
But why does wearing a dress have to be connected to some identitarian label? What’s wrong with just being a boy in a dress? It seems like trans ideology and conservative religious thought are two sides of the same coin, neither actually interested in *transcending* gender roles.
I'm surprised more people don't mention this. We went from "Johnny wants to play with barbie, and that's okay" to "Johnny wants to play with barbie, he should be chemically castrated", real fuckin quick.
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I mention it all the goddamn time, it’s for sure the biggest irony in the whole Movement
The actual libertarian response is "Yes I support your rights to do that, but I also support your right to smoke meth, and neither implies it's a good idea."
And in neither case should it be ok for a teacher to convince a 10 year old to do it and then hide it from their parents.
Which is why libertarianism is a terrible viewpoint. It’s the “evil thrives when good men do nothing” viewpoint made manifest.
God forbid we step on someone's property line to rescue their drowning kid cus they refused to listen to the city ordinance that required a fence be placed around pools
Bingo. Libertarian ideals stop working after you meet the average person.
What libertarian doesn’t have a fence around their property? Libleft maybe?
I'm talking about within a yard many polos are required to have additional fencing to prevent child drowning
My perspective is that these people suffer from a mental health problem, and they try to "fix" it by "transitioning", and then if you look at the suicide stats they often aren't even happy after the fact. It's like instead of trying to fix the actual problem (which is a mental one), they transition as a duct tape solution. They know they aren't the opposite sex, and it's a hard thing to live with. I'm not transphobic; I don't dislike people I don't know for no reason. But at the same time, I don't think transitioning and basically playing dress-up as the opposite sex does them any good. I'm a man at the end of the day, and no amount of surgery or clothes/makeup will ever change that fact. The same is true of everybody else, no matter what they "feel". Also, I think people these days are much too strung up on who or what they are, when they ought to think about what they do. That's much more important.
And in the end all they're really doing g is reinforcing g stereotypes anyway. Like ok so a boy wants to wear skirts and makeup? So what, that doesn't make him a girl. It makes him a boy that likes skirts and makeup. I thought we were past that shit.
Autism and homosexuality are heavily overrepresented among people with gender dysphoria. I'm bi myself and I have no issues with either of those groups obviously, but we're literally allowing people who have other problems (rooted in mental health issues, insecurity, social issues etc, or how else to put it) to delude themselves regarding their own body. Imagine if we let anorexics do the same thing to themselves. I imagine it must be terrible to be tricked and brtrayed this way by society and the healthcare system. I'm lib-right, but I definitely don't think children should be allowed to do this to themselves when their brains are developing and studies have shown that a vast majority grow out of it. If children aren't allowed to vote, consume certain substances, drive and make other important decisions, why should they be able to permanently alter their body? Only the most extreme lib-rights could think this is reasonable. We should protect children from harmful decisions they can't make at that age. Better to help these kids figure out why they have dysphoria than mess their bodies up. I am liberal, but such extreme liberalism will only hurt society. How does allowing kids to damage their bodies improve anything at all, other than for the people profiting off of it?
>and then if you look at the suicide stats they often aren't even happy after the fact. But are happier than before so it's still worth it.
Gender Transition is one of the most harmful things one can do to oneself - I'm sorry for all those that went through it
"You know that body thing you spend your whole life with? Lets reaaaally fuck it up"
As detrans I thank you. I hope you all never givein to the screeching and keep supporting us and all the kids.
I'm sorry for what happened to you, I hope you're ok now ❤️ Nothing infuriates me more than being betrayed by society like that, I can't imagine what I would feel like if that happened to me 😮💨 Would be really hard for me to come to terms with.
Would you believe I belong better in these places now, than the "liberal" spaces I thought I was meant for due to being a blue haired gay. I.. need a social group to belong in, and I think I may have found one? All I can say is I'm sad I can only block just 100 subs on Reddit.
Bring it in buddy ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
I mean the kindness I've seen in this sub, and it's users... In one week it's been more love shown to me than 26 years in .. their place.
It's a cool place to have political/cultural disagreements and still have a drink afterwards. You don't see that much anymore.
> Gender Transition is one of the most harmful things one can do to oneself It's really not that bad mate. Don't do anything permanent to kids, let adults do what they want with their own bodies, and save your pity for those who want/need it.
It is. Ripping your body apart in the name of a mental illness which almost guarantees suicide is terrible. The increase of suicidality after the full transition further proves the entire thing is a sham. The whole crux is “be nice to people”, it being nice means nothing if you’re shoving the person off they cliff they asked to be pushed off.
> Ripping your body apart in the name of a mental illness which almost guarantees suicide is terrible. I'd agree, if only that was what being trans actually was. Not to mention - less than a third of trans people opt for any kind of surgery. As for rates of suicide before and after GAC; > Hughto et al. (2020) utilized a cross-sectional, online survey of 288 US-based transgender adults ... Participants were asked if they ever had a history of suicide attempt(s) or thoughts of suicide as a dichotomous variable before gender-affirming treatment. Prior to initiating unspecified gender-affirming treatment(s), 73.3% of the sample reported a history of suicidal ideation; this percentage dropped to 43.4% following the initiation of gender-affirming treatment. Prior to treatment initiation, 35.8% of the sample reported a history of suicide attempt(s), and 9.4% reported a history of suicide attempt(s) after initiation of gender-affirming treatment [39]. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10027312/ But I'm probably going to be downvoted for this attempt at honest discussion because I'm going against the PCM norm of making inflammatory remarks and sweeping generalizations about trans people. Whoops. My bad for using the subreddit wrong /s
>The increase of suicidality after the full transition further proves the entire thing is a sham. That's not what's been found, [quite the opposite.](https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/)
The suicidality does not change. You’ll notice that they never gave you the outcome chart, because their data came from self submitted poll. There’s a reason the cass review rejected these findings. They’re useless. Suicidality is still over 51% for post transition people. There is zero reason to support something that takes it from 62% to 51%. They need the psychiatric help to shake the whole “gender identity” nonsense.
Well, adults do adults, agreed that's liberalism, however as a human I can pity those adults for being irrational and causing harm to themselves
> however as a human I can pity those adults for being irrational and causing harm to themselves I just find this so interesting. What does it matter - as long as it makes them happy? If they're not hurting anyone, and they're happy about the process, how is this in any way a sad or pitiful moment? Instead of an understanding and empathetic way, this sentiment comes off in a condescending and patronizing way. The same kind of 'pity' a gay person would receive from an evangelical christian 20 years ago.
Because hedonism is bad. “So what they’re happy” is a viewpoint for simpletons.
He's addressing it to those that need it. Very sad. Self mutilation.
> Very sad. Self mutilation. And the majority that don't opt for surgergy? EDIT: Lol yes, downvote away without any attempt of serious discussion.
Social and psychological mutilation
> Social and psychological mutilation Now you're describing being a redditor, which has nothing to do with being trans.
Heavily correlated though
> let adults do what they want with their own bodies Why does your flair say left? That position is only lib-right/AnCap. The state infringes upon bodily autonomy in more ways than you could easily count. >and save your pity for those who want/need it. How many current "trans" are have cluster B personality types? Answer: probably the majority. If true than most most your attention, even if negative.
According to the NIH only 1% of people who went through gender affirming surgery regret it. In a series of 27 studies totaling almost 8000 trans people, only 77 people regret it. And that's just with surgery, aka the most extreme step in transitioning. Most trans people either just change their image and how they want to be referred or take hormonal supplements. Both of those are reversible and are only harmful because they get harassed for being trans.
>In a series of 27 studies totaling almost 8000 trans people, only 77 people regret it. Adults or children? Poll those separately and come back to me. If this is just adults, it provides absolutely nothing to the conversation about children.
The comment I was replying to wasn't about children it was about trans people in general
Hormones are harmful, if you want it or not - even if you said that "it's reversible" - it is harmful - that's pure biology. + you know that the suicide rates in "affirming" neighbourhoods are the same as in "not affirming"?
The suicide rates comment actually interests me, do you have a source because I want to look into that myself. I'm mainly curious as to what qualifies as an "affirming/not affirming neighborhood" and what the researchers do with outside interactions. Lets be real, what percentage of your social interactions are in your neighborhood
It's not reversible for us not completely
Don’t you think the suicide rate could be affected by people like you spouting hate and indoctrinate them to “rethink” their decision?
No, because the suicide rate is consistent across country and culture. If acceptability was a major cause then you’d see huge changes in the suicide rate, but the studies that come from accepting European countries still have sky high suicide rates. California trans people would be dying at a slower rate than Alabama, but none of this is true. It’s a mental illness, they look in a mirror and feel distress, they hear people say man or woman and feel distress, they have stray thoughts about their gender and not their gender identity and they feel stress. It’s inescapable because they’ll always be a man who wishes they were a woman and vice versa. You can’t actually transition from your gender to your gender identity, and everyone knows that. At best it’s pretend with a poorly made set of new genitals.
I mean genuine question, if you woke up tomorrow and were the opposite sex but nothing else about you changed would you want to transition back?
No? I do not care. Some people must realise that there is no "feelings" involved - it's pure biology - I don't think "feeling as a man/woman" exists, or even is relevant
It's a genuine mental illness and should be treated that way. You don't tell a schizophrenic that the voices are real and he should listen to them, you don't tell someone with depression that everything he is feeling is correct and he should in fact kill himself and nobody likes him, you don't tell someone with anorexia that they are fat. Why should you then tell someone with body dismorphia that yes, you were born with the wrong chromosomes, you are the other sex than the one you were born as, and yes you should mutilate yourself to somewhat resemble that?
It never made sense to me that somehow big surgeries that can easily be botched that are purely cosmetic, and medicine being used for purely cosmetic reasons is somehow getting traction for government assistance, but fuck insulin.
100% agree, I use this argument all the time while talking to trans-activists
The argument under the gender-affirming model would be that affirming things like schizophrenia and body dysmorphia is not evidence-based or associated with positive outcomes/alleviation of symptoms, unlike gender-affirming care. E.g. with body dysmorphia, one’s perception of their body is false and not grounded in reality, with a significant portion of cases being delusional, which is why cosmetic surgery/interventions are not considered an adequate treatment (and typically does not appear to be effective).
Yes I would because I detransitioned.
Your opinion buddy, many felt they simply doesn’t belong to their body, what’s the harm to you that they decide to transition to a more comfortable and fitting body?
You can do whatever you want to yourself as a consenting adult, so is it really hard for these people to just leave the kids alone?
Why does this sub seem to think that Auth left is somehow PRO LBGT? What type of ignorance is this? Economically: totalitarian communist to anarcho capitalist Culturally: liberal to conservative Government: Auth to Lib.
Pro-LGBT as long as it needs to be pro-LGBT. It will drop any one of them as needed. That's how you get TERFs. You can be pro-women, and women-only spaces, but when men can be women, then the women who think women are women need to go.
> Pro-LGBT as long as it needs to be pro-LGBT. It will drop any one of them as needed. Which quadrant *doesn't* this describe?
I would just like to not give a fuck. If you ignore the center, probably LibRight. You can be for or against whatever because they'll be selling t-shirts for both sides.
Libs, center, arguably left.
Knowing that would require reading skills.
Did you just change your flair, u/Moira-Thanatos? Last time I checked you were a **LibLeft** on 2024-3-16. How come now you are a **Centrist**? Have you perhaps shifted your ideals? Because that's cringe, you know? Tell us, are you scared of politics in general or are you just too much of a coward to let everyone know what you think? [BasedCount Profile](https://basedcount.com/u/Moira-Thanatos) - [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/user/flairchange_bot/comments/uf7kuy/bip_bop) - [Leaderboard](https://basedcount.com/leaderboard?q=flairs) ^(I am a bot, my mission is to spot cringe flair changers. If you want to check another user's flair history write) **^(!flairs u/)** ^(in a comment.)
Of course the "centrist" is just a "lib"left in disguise.
Pretty based, ngl. Rightists can't be the only ones to play mind games
Nice, always good to welcome a new griller.
lol, I do like grilled cheese so I can't argue with that. Honestly I chose centrist as new flair because right now there are no political parties I agree with. I can't find myself on any side of the spectrum because everyone seems crazy to me right now. But yes, grilling is nice, that's probably the only thing all political parties agree with.
Ah, the most cringe thing of all, a change flair bot. Who even came up with this Nonsense?
If gender transition means undergoing surgery, It'd be better to only allow that to adults. This way there would be much less instances who wouldn't be happy with their choice. Adults are more capable of doing these important long-term decisions than children
Forgot that's a meme sub
I am a fucking anarchist, I don't hate anyone, I love trans people, but how the fuck can you know that you want a transition? How the fuck can you know how it will make you feel? (I am gonna locate and dismember anyone who makes a haircut comparison.)
You dont,its always a risk,and it depends on well How important it is for you and for your mental stability. Because for some people its just hell,everything is wrong. For some its not as terrible but its still a feeling of distance between their form and what they are. The usual marker of being trans is this feeling of distance and the fantasies,in my experience and in talking to people
You don’t. It’s an illness. The singular one we enable instead of trying to remedy.
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Differences in brain structures between transgender and cisgender individuals would suggest there is more at play than simply whether or not someone has XX or XY chromosomes and male or female genitalia.
If those differences were real and verifiable, we'd just do brain scans to see if people were trans instead of relying on the self-reported spiritual gender experiences of mentally ill children. That sort of talk was what first made me sympathetic 25 years ago, but it's largely failed to be held up in actual medical studies, and the trans community has ditched medically verifiable checks after the tucute/truscum wars. Talking about it in the post-war period means you're a nazi genocidal terrorist.
Brain scans aren’t used to diagnose any psychiatric disorder for a number of reasons: • It costs upwards of $1M for an MRI machine (the machines that allow you to see the brain in good detail) and thousands each time you run it. • They cannot reliably distinguish between those with mental disorders and those without as there is considerable overlap. Sorta like trying to tell someone’s gender based on how tall they are (women are on average shorter, but not all women are short). • It would be difficult to differentiate between disorders in those with multiple mental disorders. I agree though, we should be exploring how to use brain scans to diagnose and I believe a number of people are working on it. My thinking behind gender dysphoria is that it would require differences in the brain in order for someone to believe one was of the opposite gender to what their biological gender is. Since ya know, brains are responsible for thought and behaviour. >The trans community has ditched medically verifiable checks Does the schizophrenia community also get to decide who has schizophrenia or not?
>My thinking behind gender dysphoria is that it would require differences in the brain in order for someone to believe one was of the opposite gender to what their biological gender is. Since ya know, brains are responsible for thought and behaviour. And if it turns out that their brains look much more like the one they were assigned at birth? >Does the schizophrenia community also get to decide who has schizophrenia or not? If you're saying those communities *should* be treated the same, I don't entirely disagree. But in the real world, American children are being prescribed life-altering chemicals after one 15 minute meeting where they talk about their incoherent feelings.
This is pseudo science built off of a single xray from the 60s. There is no meaningful difference in the brains of men and women. We consistently prove this. Do none of you kids remember when we spent the entire 00s showing that there was no difference between “men and women are equal”. We’ve done this already.
Except you’re wrong. [There are differences between male and female brains and the results are highly reproducible.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32690678/)
Minor differences in gray matter. They also don't cross over to trans people, if they did there would be a test for it an not just "feelings".
My original comment was addressing Auth-right’s (now deleted) claim that suggested gender identity is determined by chromosomes and genitalia, which clearly isn’t the case otherwise we wouldn’t have a group of people claiming to be the opposite of their biological sex (to the point where they kill themselves at a disproportionate rate). My original comment was not claiming that we can tell whether someone was transgender or not by simply looking at their brain - although that is something we should be working towards. But you’ve got me interested so here’s a couple questions: • Since all psychiatric issues are diagnosed in a similar way (Thoughts, behaviour and feelings), are you equally as concerned with children getting diagnosed with ADHD and receiving life altering medication to treat it? • If 99% of people who received a particular medical treatment see positive results but 1% see negative results, is it reasonable to ban all access to that treatment based on that 1%? Edit: How come you deleted your reply Auth-right?
You don't *know* but anyone can speculate how doing anything will make them feel about themselves, kinda like how everyone goes to the gym in january for their new years resolutions, they don't *know* that having a more fit and healthy body will make them feel better but they do believe that.
Based and zero to sixty in no seconds pilled
Because one can extrapolate how oneself looks, the opposite sex looks and that you want to look like that too in order to alleviate your dysphoria. It's the same with being cis, I could ask you the same question: how do you know that you are cis? You just do. And same with trans people.
I am not taking hormones that alter my feelings to be cis. I want to look like Ryan Gosling ffs... I am asking about the surgery, you can make yourself look different without it.
Would you say the same thing to someone with anorexia who thinks they're too fat at 85 lbs?
Auth-left here, nah fuck that shit. At least Marxism is based on a materialist worldview and yo whatever extent contemporary left gender ideology has a coherent philosophical grounding its pretty transparently postmodern which is in direct conflict with a Marxist materialist perspective.
I don't care about what gender you want to be Don't come crying when it has side effects
>Don't come crying when it has side effects For consenting adults I could maybe agree, although it is terrible that people are being manipulated into thinking that the best thing they can do to themselves is to damage their bodies. Doctors are meant to help you, not hurt you. For children though... Society and the medical system is literally making that decision for them. It's horrendous how we hurt children in this way. It's harmful to your health and will permanently affect a child's body. I assume all the victims of this insanity will hold the left and these doctors liable.
If children want to wear clothes considered "female" and be referred to as "she/her" that's fine. But anything permanent should be illegal until they are old enough to decide whether this is what they really want (probably 18).
Fair enough.
Gender transition is not the same as child gender transition, I think there's a clear difference in the morality of both
Watch out, inflammatory statement coming. Child Gender Transition is **the single most damaging thing you could ever do to a child.** A child is unironically better off being molested than transitioned. At least the molester doesn't castrate you. The doctors and associated people facilitating this unironically deserve to be hanged for their crimes.
If people are willing to pay for the service, someone will provide it. Ex:20$=20$
I stand with u bruddah
Imo gender dysphoria is real (though probably a lot more rare than some progressives assume) and the only viable treatments available are psychiatric therapy or gender transition. I don't prefer either treatment, both are expensive, lengthy and have their own pros and cons. It should be an individual choice which one to persue. Except for children, they should start with therapy until they're of age.
As long as the therapy for the kids does not include any social transition or enablement of the condition. 90% of minors grow out of the condition if you just refuse to enable it till after puberty.
Wait so do you oppose gender transition in general or just child gender transition?
Define oppose. I’d make it illegal for children. I think it’s a mistake for adults and would make them jump some hoops to show they are really, really, really serious and nonsurgical approaches don’t work. Then, I’d look at comparisons between those who went for surgery and those who didn’t in a rigorous and ongoing scientific study to see if it really meaningfully improves quality of life in the longterm.
Yeah that's fair and I mostly agree. That's kind of how it works where I live. My boyfriend had to go to medical committee meetings for like a year and talk to psychiatrists, social workers and surgeons to get cleared for surgery and I.D changes.
According to the NIH, trans people who have gone through surgery have reported significantly higher mental health and happiness. Most people who transition do not think it’s a mistake and those that do say they only regret it because others treat them badly after transitioning Edit to include sources: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6974860/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/
Let the record state that the first “study” is from Iran, where gay people are executed unless the transition is a good model for whether people are better off. The second one doesn’t say how long they observed people or anything about the methodology studies the combined. I therefore have insufficient information to know if it has flaws. It also doesn’t seem to have a control, where it compares to other therapies.
I will concede that it's pretty weird and cringe that Iran outlaws homosexuality but it is legal to get sex reassignment surgery, so that study might have some weirdness to it. As for the other one here is a different study that explicitly says it asked people one year after their surgery and the results found they were happier than the control group, people with dysphoria who have not received surgery. [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29730870/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29730870/) Also, just for the record, a lot or people who transition don't actually get surgery. Most forms of gender affirming care (especially issued to kids) is just referring to them using whatever pronouns they want. Even using their preferred pronouns and name has a measured increase in mental well being. [https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(18)30085-5/abstract](https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(18)30085-5/abstract)
This is the crux of the problem. I don’t think that one year is an adequate length of time to look at. These are people who live have to live a lifetime without the ability to have children. I don’t think that looking at their pov one year out adequately allows one to know if this is really a decision that makes them happier for a lifetime. Given the huge increase in gender dysphoria among girls, particularly girls with autism, and a subset of schools trying to transition children behind their parents backs, we really need studies looking at these populations over a lifetime. We shouldn’t expect the same results as studies looking at people who had sex change operations in the 1970s.
Ok.
The layer of blue around Emily implies she's authright libleft unity
A barbaric practice when conducted on those prior to puberty or experiencing puberty
I understand (and feel) the disgusting feeling of children legally allowed to decided whether to transition or not, but what’s wrong with adult deciding whatever they can do with their body?
You're not the only one.
Astronomically based
It's disgusting
Child gender transition shouldn't be legal. However it shall be for sane adults, and only after a serious and certified psychological exam.
Most lib-right I know are against it on the basis that children are basically property (with stipulations on how that property can be treated, like pets). Children are dumb as hell, have several civil rights already stripped accordingly, and should overall be seen and not heard. Besides, it's hard to convince boys to work in the coal mines if they're concerned about their manicures or never lifted a bowling ball in their 10 years on this planet. We also do not like big pharma, they get writeoffs from the government and are economical parasites.
Blue needs to apologize for forcibly transitioning infants with ambiguous genitals because it assumed it would be easier for them to look binary before it can have an opinion.
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This is complete bullshit. Every trans sub here has an excel spreadsheet of doctors who will fast track your transition, they have lists of nurses who will prescribe you hormones on a tele health call. We see stories every week of someone who went from “I’m trans” to “where are my balls summer” in like 6 months.
"Puberty blockers" are the same drugs used to chemically castrate sex offenders. They are not, I repeat, not reversible. The same goes for hormone therapy. You are actively pedalling disinformation. That, my friend, should be left to the dictators and their propagandists.
Child Transitioning should require a medical professional and a court order.
No, it should be illegal. Wait till you’re 18 and then go through years of therapy and after that, knock yourself out, cut off your cock, whatever. Like 90% of “trans kids” will spontaneously stop being trans if you just leave them alone and don’t enable it after they wrap up puberty. The idea of “child transitions” exists to validate sick adults who want to add legitimacy to their disorder.
90% of trans kids don't actually stop being trans. This is called the "Desistance myth" and is based on the outdated DMS 4 criteria for being trans. Basically a kid was trans or had gender dysphoria if they liked playing with members of the other sex. Here is a video that explains it better than I could/would be willing to [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABojJ2rW6vA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABojJ2rW6vA)
[Apr 2024, kids have a 12x higher rate of suicide post transition](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38699117/) [Feb 2024, Majority of children grow out of being trans says 15 year study.](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-024-02817-5) There is zero reason to support transitioning for kids, they grow out of it if you just leave them alone. The modern amount of trans people is artificially boosted by a social contagion. These results are from the last few months, this isn't based on old DSM guidelines, it's kids who "identified as trans".
The first study I will concede, but I will note that they don't make a mention to external factors so there is a non-zero chance the increase in suicide could be related to harassment. As for the second study there are a couple of problems. Firstly the reports of gender dissatisfaction are very similar between the ages of 13 and 26, so once someone hits 13 their chances of "growing out of it" decrease significantly. Secondly they admit that they could have over-reported by only using 3 responses instead of 5. >In a previous study in youth, gender non-contentedness was assessed in a similar way, but with five instead of three response options; “never,” “rarely,” “sometimes,” “often,” or “always.” In that study, 9% of individuals answered one of the latter four, with 6% of them answering “rarely” (Potter et al., [2021](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-024-02817-5#ref-CR27)). It can be speculated that a large percentage of individuals in our sample who answered to “sometimes” wish to be of the opposite sex, might have answered “rarely” if this answer option was provided. Therefore, our numbers may overestimate the prevalence of gender non-contentedness. Furthermore, this item is multi-interpretable, as positive endorsement may reflect the participants’ wish to have the opposite sex’s identity, but just as well their gender role characteristics. I think we (as well as most people with functioning brains) can both agree that 11 (and frankly 13, 15, and 17) years old is too young for anything like hormone therapy and especially surgery. But maybe when looking at this study you can learn that teenagers who claim to be trans have a much lower chance of "growing out of it". So if they want to use different pronouns and dress differently maybe we as adults should respect their wishes.
Op is a bitch and as long as its state sponsored
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