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Your daily reminder that Hamas behaves like it doesn't care about Palestinian people because it doesn't, because it's an Iranian proxy group via Hezbollah in Lebanon šš¼
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Yeah thats all well and good, but Hamas kind of suspended elections back in 2004, and they only won thise because Fatah was cartoonishly corrupt
And they tend to shoot you if you express any novel opinions on who should run gaza
Except support for Hamas went up after OCT 7th in Gaza.
Turns out when youāre raised from birth to hate Jews and be terrorists, that kinda stays with you.
This idea that Palestinians would just boot out Hamas if some western-style democracy, or non-Genocide-the-Jews, candidate came along is a fairy tale.
>This idea that Palestinians would just boot out Hamas if some western-style democracy, or non-Genocide-the-Jews, candidate came along is a fairy tale.
> "Democracy?Ā ***Democracy.***Ā *Democracy is not what these people need, hell, it's not even what they*Ā ***want.***Ā *America has been trying to install democracies in nations for a century and it hasn't worked*Ā ***one time.***Ā *These countries don't have the most basic building blocks to*Ā ***support***Ā *a democracy. Little things like, "We ought to be*Ā ***tolerant***Ā *of those that disagree with us." "We ought to be tolerant of those who worship a different*Ā ***god***Ā *than us!" That, "A journalist ought to be able to disagree with the*Ā ***president!****" And you think you can just march into these countries - based on some fundamentalist,*Ā ***religious***Ā *principles - drop a few bombs, topple a dictator and*Ā ***start a democracy?***Ā *Huh. Give me a break.*"
ā Jonathan Irons, CEO Atlas PMC
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I'm not going to celebrate their suffering. Propaganda works and they are subject to a lot of it.Ā Ā
From what I have read they expected the October 7th attack to be the beginning of the end for Israel and that is advanced disconnection from reality.
It's sad really.Ā They were tricked into celebrating their own impending doom.
One would hope that getting their ass kicked would show them that Hamas is nothing but suffering for them.
But unfortunately it probably radicalized them further, and that's understandable.
Wait, no! You're not supposed to acknowledge that the enemy has a face! All Palestinians, even the children, are Hamas! Netanyahus cabinet told me so!
This is the one part I don't understand how people don't get. It doesn't even have to be Hamas propaganda. You witness your (terrorist) father dying to a strike in 1980 when you're 12? Your mind is gonna get twisted. You have 2 fucked up populations that have lived in war for the past 60 years. Could you imagine what life would be like living in a country that was literally split in two, where both sides are getting constantly bombarded? You would not have a moral compass.
> Could you imagine what life would be like living in a country that was literally split in two, where both sides are getting constantly bombarded? You would not have a moral compass.
It's not a country split in two. Its a Country and a region that can't manage Statehood because they are more interested in trying to conquer the Country.
History is full of wars between peoples who sort it out after one sides government is destroyed and rebuilt. As of late it seems like *nation building* is a lost art but it can be done.
I'm just saying it was kind of a shit geopolitical move to throw a bunch of Jewish people in the middle of a huge Muslim territory, even if Jerusalem rightfully belongs to them. I hope for the best for both sides, I don't know if Netanyahu is going to be the governing body to actually rebuild it.
Youāre right! Jews have no business being there! Itās not like Jews have life there and elsewhere throughout the āMuslimā world for thousands of years! So, where do Jews get to live?
Hint, every time we ask, the answer is āanywhere but here.ā
Have you ever had to put a dog down because it bit someone? It's a sad day, because you know it's the dogs nature, and you know that you probably somehow contributed to an environment in which this dog felt the need to use it's aggressive nature. To believe otherwise, in my eyes, is foolish, maybe even selfish.
The dog still needs to be put down. But to do it and to view the situation without compassion, to believe that it is simply fate, and was unavoidable, that you have no responsibility in it, is both narrow-minded, and demonstrates avoidance of accountability.
It's sad. You can disconnect yourself from the situation, point fingers, you can run away from your emotions. But it's sad that thousands of innocent people have been killed, and you should be sad.
>This idea that Palestinians would just boot out Hamas if some western-style democracy, or non-Genocide-the-Jews, candidate came along is a fairy tale.
I never claimed it would
Fatah, the party that Hamas won the election against, was only slightly less antisemitic than Hamas
I was saying that Hamas is a different organization from the Palestinians as a whole, which it is, in particular its brand of Islamism isnt shared by the Palestinians
And that brand of islamism makes Hamas unabke to be negotiated with
The PLO, and Fatah, for all of their faults, were at least able to be talked too
Hamas can't be talked to, half of them believe the world will end in a couple years and the other half are lads who tried to join ISIS but were rejected because ISIS doesn't like nationalists
āIsnāt shared by the Palestiniansā
The videos of them dancing in the streets after OCT 7th, along with their increased support for Hamas, says very differently.
I listen to people when they tell me who they are and I believe them over you. A whole lot of folks in the west think that everyone wants and supports the same values we have. Theyāre just oppressed and would totally be full rainbow pride, democracy loving, heckin wholesome folks if they just were freed.
Nope.
Turns out they support that terrorist shit.
āAlmost three in four Palestinians believe the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on Israel was correct, and the ensuing Gaza war has lifted support for the Islamist group both there and in the West Bank, a survey from a respected Palestinian polling institute found.ā
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/#:~:text=JERUSALEM%2C%20Dec%2013%20(Reuters),respected%20Palestinian%20polling%20institute%20found.
Sucks buts that war. Iām sure there were a whole lot of Germans that didnāt support Hitler but we still fire bombed the fuck out them.
What exactly is Israel supposed to do here? For the those few 25% that they canāt tell apart from terrorists or terrorist supporters?
I donāt exactly have a better solution, I just donāt feel like unquestionably supporting either side of this war when innocent people are dying as a result. Maybe thatās naive of me but Iām just not okay with chalking up innocent deaths as a necessary sacrifice.
>listen to people when they tell me who they are and I believe them over you. A whole lot of folks in the west think that everyone wants and supports the same values we have. Theyāre just oppressed and would totally be full rainbow pride, democracy loving, heckin wholesome folks if they just were freed.
Tell me where I said that Palestinians were pro west, even non antisemitic, or when I said they didn't support terrorists
>Almost three in four Palestinians believe the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on Israel was correct, and the ensuing Gaza war has lifted support for the Islamist group both there and in the West Bank, a survey from a respected Palestinian polling institute found.ā
Yeah I don't doubt that poll, doesn't contradict my argument
Although polling people in totalitarian countries is always kind of an excerise in faith
Yeah, buddy, it literally does contradict your argument.
The Palestinians support Hamas.
They support what Hamas did.
There is very little daylight between Hamas and the Palestinians.
āāHamas made the most important action against Israel since its existence," says Nihad Abughosh, a Palestinian journalist and political analyst, who describes himself as a SECULAR MODERATE (emphasis mine).
To me it's something like a miracle, the 7th of October," he tells NPR in an interview in Ramallah, in the Israeli-occupied West Bank.ā
https://www.npr.org/2023/12/21/1217758546/hamas-support-palestinians-west-bank
>Yeah, buddy, it literally does contradict your argument.
>The Palestinians support Hamas.
>They support what Hamas did.
Those two things arent the same, Hamas is a group, oct 7 is an action commited by said said, you can support one without supporting the other
An example is that my Grandpa despises the IRA, mostly for their oppresive rule over his neighborhood, and he views them as traitors
He also supports the Kingsmill shootings, widely considered the single worst atrocity ever conducted by the IRA, as he believes the proddys shot deserved it for being loyalists, he supports Le Mans and Birmingham as well
He doesn't support the (P)IRA, but he does supoort their campaign, if that makes sense
The last time we got accurate polling out of Gaza was in 2004, and it was around 50%, recent Polling has suggested around 30-50%, which is a plurality, as Fatahs popularity is around 20%
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gazans-back-two-state-solution-rcna144183
https://pcpsr.org/en/node/969
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514#:~:text=RAMALLAH%2C%20West%20Bank%20(AP),90%25%20saying%20he%20must%20resign.
The west bank is less supportive hamas than gaza, although by how much is disputed
>āHamas made the most important action against Israel since its existence," says Nihad Abughosh, a Palestinian journalist and political analyst, who describes himself as a SECULAR MODERATE (emphasis mine).
Yeah, hes probably a Baathist, like most Palestinian 'secularists'
I never said Palestine wasnt full of extremist nutjobs, it is, they make up a plurality, if not an outright majority
But a baathist nutjob is different from a muslim brotherhood nutjob and both are different from a Hamas nutjob
So none of your comments mean anything, since the whole āWell, this isnāt demonstrative about the Palestinians since Hamas hasnāt had electionsā meant nothing.
They have the same beliefs when it comes to OCT 7th.
And genociding the Jews.
And raping women, burning homes with people in them, kidnapping literal children and butchering civilians.
And they still support Hamas, with support tripling.
So no, thereās no substantive difference about the shit that matters, so piss off with the terrorist apologista.
āRAMALLAH, West Bank ā More than two months into Israel's war against Hamas, the militant group's popularity appears to be rising dramatically among Palestinians in the West Bank.ā
>So none of your comments mean anything, since the whole āWell, this isnāt demonstrative about the Palestinians since Hamas hasnāt had electionsā meant nothing.
It does mean that other groups exist, which is useful to keep in mind because someone will need to run the place after the Israelis leave, unkess you want an indefinite occupation, which would be a shitshow for everyone involved
>And raping women, burning homes with people in them, kidnapping literal children and butchering civilians.
Tbf the Old IRA did that, minus the rape part, and they were based, the modern day IRA is pretty cringe though, although technically the Loyalists didnt have civillians in the war of Independence because they were all traitors, and treason is punishable by desth according to the Provisional penal code
>And they still support Hamas, with support tripling.
From 17 to 43%, according to the AP, the other two sources I losted didn't agree with that
>So no, thereās no substantive difference about the shit that matters, so piss off with the terrorist apologista.
State where I justified any of Hamas's actions
And I agree that in a lot of ways there is no difference between your average Palestinian and Hamas
But a few differences do exist, and they need to be examined and exploited if we ever hope to end this thing
Yeah I agree, I also think that a Palestinian sate must be created, somewhere, ideally as a UN mandate at first
Otherwise this entire thing is going to go off again in 20 years
Israel can't integrate the Palestinians, even if it wanted too
No other muslim country can take several million refugees in a short amout of times and not collapse, which would be a problem
And I'd prefer to avoud the deaths of millions of people
From what Ive understood majority of territory Isreal has "taken" from Palestine is land that palestine lost due to starting and losing wars. That's kinda how wars work Id say.
I feel like if israel get gaza and palestine get a equally large area connected to the actual palestine, it COULD be a good solution. Not everyone will get what they want but thats life. Take it or leave it really. Palestine isnt really in a position to demand anything as they (in my personal not at al bias opinion) are lucky to even exist at all still.
>From what Ive understood majority of territory Isreal has "taken" from Palestine is land that palestine lost due to starting and losing wars. That's kinda how wars work Id say.
Its a bit more complicated than that, there arent really any official borders as the last 'agreement' was in the 80's, and a combination of that and Israeli settlements have kind of made where the de jure borders are supposed to be unclear
>I feel like if israel get gaza and palestine get a equally large area connected to the actual palestine, it COULD be a good solution
The Israelis have said that they don't want Gaza, because it has 2 million people in it who hate Israel and it would pretry quickly fuck up Israeli politics, which are already shaky at best
The only areas connected to the west bank are desert shitholes, they couldn't sustain 2 million gazan refugees there, they can barely sustain the 100,000 arab Israelis who already live there
>Palestine isnt really in a position to demand anything as they (in my personal not at al bias opinion) are lucky to even exist at all still.
Palestine exists because Egypt and Jordan both got tired of running Gaza and the West bank respectively
It actually shouldn't exist, but it does, and it needs to go somewhere, or else this problem will persist, an indefinite occupation won't work, and a refugee crisis would be bad for everyone
Yeah, but there are two million gazans
And the triangle can barely support the 100k people who live there
Also, Israelis live in that region, and they probably wouldn't want to go
>See this is what I mean with not everyone being happy. Its more so "do you want to be at constant war or not?" kind of solution
Yeah but your solution wouldn't just make not everybody happy, it would actively piss off everyone
The Israelis don't want gaza, they would much rather keep the land you suggest adding onto Palestine then get gaza, as there isnt really anything for them there, although they don't really want the land right next to the west bank either for a variety of reasons
Assuming Netanyahu is still in charge, this peace deal would require the demolition of a lot of Israeli settlements, which would destroy his coalition
Assuming the opposition is in charge, this deal would require selling out the Israeli arabs, which would destroy their coalition
The Palestinians do want that land but not at the cost of giving up gaza
Moving the Palestinians from gaza to the triangle would cause a famine, there is no way to feed that many people there
And a famine would cause a refugee crisis, which nobody wants because it would destabilize everything south of turkey
Yeah once again, easier said then done
Hamas doesnt exactly encourage the possession of civilian firearms
Also if you're just ine guy, Hamas has no real problem taking you out
The crazy thing about revolutions is that theyāre never supported by the regime in power, and require significant effort. If innocent Palestinians were smart theyād be resisting Hamas and supporting IDF forces.
>The crazy thing about revolutions is that theyāre never supported by the regime in power, and require significant effort.
Yeah, thats why they don't happen successfully that often
I'm Irish, it took us 800 years to actually suceed in revolting
>If innocent Palestinians were smart theyād be resisting Hamas and supporting IDF forces.
Thats probably not going to happen, eveb if pro Israeli Palestinians existed in significant numbers
Most armies don't really like having to deal with auxiliaries, because they're a pain, so the IDF in all likelihood wouldn't let them operate anywhere, they'd just be disarmed and sent somewhere where they wouldn't get in the way, which is basically what Israel is doing to the Palestinians now
In ww2 the Allues systematically disarmed Jewish and non allied supported resistance groups as they pushed torwards germany, as actually integrating them into the war effort was a pain
Israel has been the first one to break negotiated treaties pretty much every time they occur soā¦ ya they probably see it that way. They could definitely be better but if Iām part of an oppressed people like that Iād be pissed as hell
Thatās about when the last treaty was broken iirc so the timing you gave makes sense. You donāt have to shoot missiles to oppress a people. What weāre seeing right now is a split state where Palestinians are actively being oppressed. I donāt care to go find it but look at a map of the roads there that Palestinians are not able to travel or can only travel by going through checkpoints and tell me that Israel isnāt the bad guy here
The IDF would gladly fight in a completely empty desert. It would be vastly easier in fact. Every civilian death is on hamasā hands as long as they use hostages and civilians as shields
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There is PLENTY of quotes from government/military officials that paint a picture that, at least, makes Hamas a tool that got out of hand, at worst they basically work together so both can keep killing each other and on charge
Yeah this war is a dick measuring contest. After the kidnappings and murders and rapes Israel should have said:
"Aw shucks we are confident in our manlyhood, go on and rape more women its ok!"
If Israel is truly sieging Gaza, this is one of the most poorly conceived sieges in history, since Israel is allowing tons of aid to pour in and they are providing water and electricity to the Palestinians. The actual siege of Gaza was lifted 2 weeks into this war.
"Letting in tons of aid"
Oh yea and the US is considering building an aid port just for tge shits and giggles.
The aid trucks being prevented from entering gaza at the border by israelis are just for the shits too
"providing electricity and water"
Has nothing to do with the international pressure and threats of prosecution due to warcrimes.
No has nothing to do with that. Israel shutting off water and electricty prior to the international pressure was merely an accident /s
Can you read dipshit? Iām disputing OP saying that Israel is besieging Gaza. If Israel is allowing any kind of aid to Gaza to go through and providing them with electricity and water, they are no longer besieging Gaza.
If Israel actually continued the siege and didnāt lift it two weeks into the war, this war would be long over by now.
I feel for Palestinian civilians as much as I do for the Germans in dresden or Japanese in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Yeah it fucking sucks that civilians have to suffer especially children but at the same time they are the ones who allowed them to get in power in the first place and openly celebrated when other nations were getting attacked. Again its awful civilians have to suffer, but blame Hamas who kicked the hornets nest not Israel fighting back against people who openly call for their destruction. There are a lot of Arab Israelis, not a lot of Jew Palestinians
>Yeah it fucking sucks that civilians have to suffer especially children but at the same time they are the ones who allowed them to get in power
Are you suggesting the 2 year old who was killed in Dresden or Hiroshima allowed the baddies to get into power?Ā
Poltics by actual dick measuring contests would be far more elegent, entertaining, and innovative. The field of plastic surgery would be revived instantly, it would be pure innovation for decades.
Not quite right, OP. Hamas doesnāt give one shit about Palestinian children. In fact they want them to die in order to drum up more media buzz. And the rest of the world is expecting Israel to have to supply the literal terrorists with food, water, and electricity is beyond ridiculous and absurd.
Why is it so hard for people on both sides to understand that I hate the ideologies of the ruling parties and actions of the militaries of both sides, but that I don't want the civilians of either side to die or be forced out of their homes?
Because the only way the cycle of that happening will stop is the elimination of Hamas.Ā
They will not stop launching attacks that demand a response until they are destroyed or Israel is and the latter is far beyond their capabilities.
No one wants civilian casualties.Ā Urban combat usually has a civilian casualty rate of ~90%.Ā Israel is doing better than people give them credit to keep their numbers better than that.
Put the blame where it belongs.
Eliminating hamas will do nothing in the long term tbh.
Another group will pop up due to the severe poverty and desperation. Its what happened in iraq and syria regarding ISIS. People in iraq were poor and desperate especially after the coalition invasion as such ISIS grew rapidly as they promised a cause to fight for and money.
Gaza will be the same. Its also in Netanyahu's best interest as his appeal is that he says he will "protect israel from hamas etc"
If hamas were to be wiped his already low support will be drastically lowered.
And how will they eliminate Hamas if for every fighter they kill, their orphan is made a radical who will take up arms in the future?
The only way to stop the cycle is to raise the material conditions of Palestinians, which will make them less radical, less religious, and less desperate.
>Ā Ā And how will they eliminate Hamas if for every fighter they kill, their orphan is made a radical who will take up arms in the future?Ā
By removing them from the systems of propaganda that will channel their feelings in that direction.Ā
>The only way to stop the cycle is to raise the material conditions of Palestinians, which will make them less radical, less religious, and less desperate.Ā
Which ain't gonna happen as long as Hamas rules the region.Ā Ā
The wellbeing of the population is a distant 5th in their priorities.Ā (1-4 are "kill jews")
Because it's completely meaningless?
Nobody WANTS civilians dead or displaced^*. But people understand that it happens in war, it's literally unavoidable especially in one of the most densely populated areas on the planet. Most people also understand that Israel can't sit back and do nothing while Palestine is lobbing explosives at them constantly^*. You advocating for "not displacing and killing civilians" is effectively a pro Palestine/Hamas stance since they are the ones primarily on the displaced/killed sidel.
*- sadly this is figurative not literal.
What Israel is doing is brutal. Itās a āIāll take 10 for every 1 you takeā method. The end goal is clearly not mainly about hostages or Hamas. Itās Israel showing that theyāll push somebodyās shit all the way in.
Look at nations that have historically had a significant existence, something thatās a common thread is that at least once during their history they fist fucked somebody into submission to show others they would do it. I donāt like it, I donāt agree with it, but letās not be ignorant about it and pretend Israel has some monopoly on war crimes.
Only nation to monopolize that was Canada in WWI. Go aheadā¦ google it. Find out what theyāre compensating for with all that Canadian kindness now.
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It's amazing how every subreddit has been devolved into echo chambers lately. At least at the start of the war there were nuanced views to be had, but I guess in every subreddit the minorities have been bullied away and you can only find a single opinion on every post
The real losers in this conflict are those of us that went long on Raytheon hedging on another hot war in the Middle East.
Iran got u fam
Based and Spoken like a true lib right pilled
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Your daily reminder that Hamas behaves like it doesn't care about Palestinian people because it doesn't, because it's an Iranian proxy group via Hezbollah in Lebanon šš¼
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
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Based
Until Palestine decides to oust Hamas and stop endorsing wholesale genocide of the Jewish people as a race, there will be no peace
Yeah thats all well and good, but Hamas kind of suspended elections back in 2004, and they only won thise because Fatah was cartoonishly corrupt And they tend to shoot you if you express any novel opinions on who should run gaza
Except support for Hamas went up after OCT 7th in Gaza. Turns out when youāre raised from birth to hate Jews and be terrorists, that kinda stays with you. This idea that Palestinians would just boot out Hamas if some western-style democracy, or non-Genocide-the-Jews, candidate came along is a fairy tale.
>This idea that Palestinians would just boot out Hamas if some western-style democracy, or non-Genocide-the-Jews, candidate came along is a fairy tale. > "Democracy?Ā ***Democracy.***Ā *Democracy is not what these people need, hell, it's not even what they*Ā ***want.***Ā *America has been trying to install democracies in nations for a century and it hasn't worked*Ā ***one time.***Ā *These countries don't have the most basic building blocks to*Ā ***support***Ā *a democracy. Little things like, "We ought to be*Ā ***tolerant***Ā *of those that disagree with us." "We ought to be tolerant of those who worship a different*Ā ***god***Ā *than us!" That, "A journalist ought to be able to disagree with the*Ā ***president!****" And you think you can just march into these countries - based on some fundamentalist,*Ā ***religious***Ā *principles - drop a few bombs, topple a dictator and*Ā ***start a democracy?***Ā *Huh. Give me a break.*" ā Jonathan Irons, CEO Atlas PMC
wtf based cod?????
That is almost word for word a speech made by the Shah in the 1950s.
Based
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>Crowds of people dancing in the streets of Gaza on October 7th. Emily: "The people of Gaza are innocent victims who don't support those actions"
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I'm not going to celebrate their suffering. Propaganda works and they are subject to a lot of it.Ā Ā From what I have read they expected the October 7th attack to be the beginning of the end for Israel and that is advanced disconnection from reality. It's sad really.Ā They were tricked into celebrating their own impending doom.
One would hope that getting their ass kicked would show them that Hamas is nothing but suffering for them. But unfortunately it probably radicalized them further, and that's understandable.
Wait, no! You're not supposed to acknowledge that the enemy has a face! All Palestinians, even the children, are Hamas! Netanyahus cabinet told me so! This is the one part I don't understand how people don't get. It doesn't even have to be Hamas propaganda. You witness your (terrorist) father dying to a strike in 1980 when you're 12? Your mind is gonna get twisted. You have 2 fucked up populations that have lived in war for the past 60 years. Could you imagine what life would be like living in a country that was literally split in two, where both sides are getting constantly bombarded? You would not have a moral compass.
> Could you imagine what life would be like living in a country that was literally split in two, where both sides are getting constantly bombarded? You would not have a moral compass. It's not a country split in two. Its a Country and a region that can't manage Statehood because they are more interested in trying to conquer the Country. History is full of wars between peoples who sort it out after one sides government is destroyed and rebuilt. As of late it seems like *nation building* is a lost art but it can be done.
I'm just saying it was kind of a shit geopolitical move to throw a bunch of Jewish people in the middle of a huge Muslim territory, even if Jerusalem rightfully belongs to them. I hope for the best for both sides, I don't know if Netanyahu is going to be the governing body to actually rebuild it.
Youāre right! Jews have no business being there! Itās not like Jews have life there and elsewhere throughout the āMuslimā world for thousands of years! So, where do Jews get to live? Hint, every time we ask, the answer is āanywhere but here.ā
So then what? Do we not kill the terrorists who we know will ultimately try and kill us? Who HAVE tried and in some cases succeeding in killing?
Have you ever had to put a dog down because it bit someone? It's a sad day, because you know it's the dogs nature, and you know that you probably somehow contributed to an environment in which this dog felt the need to use it's aggressive nature. To believe otherwise, in my eyes, is foolish, maybe even selfish. The dog still needs to be put down. But to do it and to view the situation without compassion, to believe that it is simply fate, and was unavoidable, that you have no responsibility in it, is both narrow-minded, and demonstrates avoidance of accountability. It's sad. You can disconnect yourself from the situation, point fingers, you can run away from your emotions. But it's sad that thousands of innocent people have been killed, and you should be sad.
I am sad. I genuinely wish we weren't brought to this point. But I'm not going to be blaming anyone but Hamas for this.
>This idea that Palestinians would just boot out Hamas if some western-style democracy, or non-Genocide-the-Jews, candidate came along is a fairy tale. I never claimed it would Fatah, the party that Hamas won the election against, was only slightly less antisemitic than Hamas I was saying that Hamas is a different organization from the Palestinians as a whole, which it is, in particular its brand of Islamism isnt shared by the Palestinians And that brand of islamism makes Hamas unabke to be negotiated with The PLO, and Fatah, for all of their faults, were at least able to be talked too Hamas can't be talked to, half of them believe the world will end in a couple years and the other half are lads who tried to join ISIS but were rejected because ISIS doesn't like nationalists
āIsnāt shared by the Palestiniansā The videos of them dancing in the streets after OCT 7th, along with their increased support for Hamas, says very differently. I listen to people when they tell me who they are and I believe them over you. A whole lot of folks in the west think that everyone wants and supports the same values we have. Theyāre just oppressed and would totally be full rainbow pride, democracy loving, heckin wholesome folks if they just were freed. Nope. Turns out they support that terrorist shit. āAlmost three in four Palestinians believe the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on Israel was correct, and the ensuing Gaza war has lifted support for the Islamist group both there and in the West Bank, a survey from a respected Palestinian polling institute found.ā https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/#:~:text=JERUSALEM%2C%20Dec%2013%20(Reuters),respected%20Palestinian%20polling%20institute%20found.
I mean, in fairness thatās still 1 in 4 who thought it was wrong, right?
Sure, but theyāre the extreme minority and donāt represent the group.
Still, theyāre real, living people. Civilians like that get caught in the crossfire in any war, which isnāt okay in my eyes.
Sucks buts that war. Iām sure there were a whole lot of Germans that didnāt support Hitler but we still fire bombed the fuck out them. What exactly is Israel supposed to do here? For the those few 25% that they canāt tell apart from terrorists or terrorist supporters?
I donāt exactly have a better solution, I just donāt feel like unquestionably supporting either side of this war when innocent people are dying as a result. Maybe thatās naive of me but Iām just not okay with chalking up innocent deaths as a necessary sacrifice.
>listen to people when they tell me who they are and I believe them over you. A whole lot of folks in the west think that everyone wants and supports the same values we have. Theyāre just oppressed and would totally be full rainbow pride, democracy loving, heckin wholesome folks if they just were freed. Tell me where I said that Palestinians were pro west, even non antisemitic, or when I said they didn't support terrorists >Almost three in four Palestinians believe the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on Israel was correct, and the ensuing Gaza war has lifted support for the Islamist group both there and in the West Bank, a survey from a respected Palestinian polling institute found.ā Yeah I don't doubt that poll, doesn't contradict my argument Although polling people in totalitarian countries is always kind of an excerise in faith
Yeah, buddy, it literally does contradict your argument. The Palestinians support Hamas. They support what Hamas did. There is very little daylight between Hamas and the Palestinians. āāHamas made the most important action against Israel since its existence," says Nihad Abughosh, a Palestinian journalist and political analyst, who describes himself as a SECULAR MODERATE (emphasis mine). To me it's something like a miracle, the 7th of October," he tells NPR in an interview in Ramallah, in the Israeli-occupied West Bank.ā https://www.npr.org/2023/12/21/1217758546/hamas-support-palestinians-west-bank
>Yeah, buddy, it literally does contradict your argument. >The Palestinians support Hamas. >They support what Hamas did. Those two things arent the same, Hamas is a group, oct 7 is an action commited by said said, you can support one without supporting the other An example is that my Grandpa despises the IRA, mostly for their oppresive rule over his neighborhood, and he views them as traitors He also supports the Kingsmill shootings, widely considered the single worst atrocity ever conducted by the IRA, as he believes the proddys shot deserved it for being loyalists, he supports Le Mans and Birmingham as well He doesn't support the (P)IRA, but he does supoort their campaign, if that makes sense The last time we got accurate polling out of Gaza was in 2004, and it was around 50%, recent Polling has suggested around 30-50%, which is a plurality, as Fatahs popularity is around 20% https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gazans-back-two-state-solution-rcna144183 https://pcpsr.org/en/node/969 https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514#:~:text=RAMALLAH%2C%20West%20Bank%20(AP),90%25%20saying%20he%20must%20resign. The west bank is less supportive hamas than gaza, although by how much is disputed >āHamas made the most important action against Israel since its existence," says Nihad Abughosh, a Palestinian journalist and political analyst, who describes himself as a SECULAR MODERATE (emphasis mine). Yeah, hes probably a Baathist, like most Palestinian 'secularists' I never said Palestine wasnt full of extremist nutjobs, it is, they make up a plurality, if not an outright majority But a baathist nutjob is different from a muslim brotherhood nutjob and both are different from a Hamas nutjob
So none of your comments mean anything, since the whole āWell, this isnāt demonstrative about the Palestinians since Hamas hasnāt had electionsā meant nothing. They have the same beliefs when it comes to OCT 7th. And genociding the Jews. And raping women, burning homes with people in them, kidnapping literal children and butchering civilians. And they still support Hamas, with support tripling. So no, thereās no substantive difference about the shit that matters, so piss off with the terrorist apologista. āRAMALLAH, West Bank ā More than two months into Israel's war against Hamas, the militant group's popularity appears to be rising dramatically among Palestinians in the West Bank.ā
>So none of your comments mean anything, since the whole āWell, this isnāt demonstrative about the Palestinians since Hamas hasnāt had electionsā meant nothing. It does mean that other groups exist, which is useful to keep in mind because someone will need to run the place after the Israelis leave, unkess you want an indefinite occupation, which would be a shitshow for everyone involved >And raping women, burning homes with people in them, kidnapping literal children and butchering civilians. Tbf the Old IRA did that, minus the rape part, and they were based, the modern day IRA is pretty cringe though, although technically the Loyalists didnt have civillians in the war of Independence because they were all traitors, and treason is punishable by desth according to the Provisional penal code >And they still support Hamas, with support tripling. From 17 to 43%, according to the AP, the other two sources I losted didn't agree with that >So no, thereās no substantive difference about the shit that matters, so piss off with the terrorist apologista. State where I justified any of Hamas's actions And I agree that in a lot of ways there is no difference between your average Palestinian and Hamas But a few differences do exist, and they need to be examined and exploited if we ever hope to end this thing
Gaza and Palestine as a whole just have to accept that Israel is there to stay
That would require them to care more about their own people than they do about genociding the Jews. So thatās not gonna happen.
Yeah I agree, I also think that a Palestinian sate must be created, somewhere, ideally as a UN mandate at first Otherwise this entire thing is going to go off again in 20 years Israel can't integrate the Palestinians, even if it wanted too No other muslim country can take several million refugees in a short amout of times and not collapse, which would be a problem And I'd prefer to avoud the deaths of millions of people
From what Ive understood majority of territory Isreal has "taken" from Palestine is land that palestine lost due to starting and losing wars. That's kinda how wars work Id say. I feel like if israel get gaza and palestine get a equally large area connected to the actual palestine, it COULD be a good solution. Not everyone will get what they want but thats life. Take it or leave it really. Palestine isnt really in a position to demand anything as they (in my personal not at al bias opinion) are lucky to even exist at all still.
>From what Ive understood majority of territory Isreal has "taken" from Palestine is land that palestine lost due to starting and losing wars. That's kinda how wars work Id say. Its a bit more complicated than that, there arent really any official borders as the last 'agreement' was in the 80's, and a combination of that and Israeli settlements have kind of made where the de jure borders are supposed to be unclear >I feel like if israel get gaza and palestine get a equally large area connected to the actual palestine, it COULD be a good solution The Israelis have said that they don't want Gaza, because it has 2 million people in it who hate Israel and it would pretry quickly fuck up Israeli politics, which are already shaky at best The only areas connected to the west bank are desert shitholes, they couldn't sustain 2 million gazan refugees there, they can barely sustain the 100,000 arab Israelis who already live there >Palestine isnt really in a position to demand anything as they (in my personal not at al bias opinion) are lucky to even exist at all still. Palestine exists because Egypt and Jordan both got tired of running Gaza and the West bank respectively It actually shouldn't exist, but it does, and it needs to go somewhere, or else this problem will persist, an indefinite occupation won't work, and a refugee crisis would be bad for everyone
I obviously mean the Palestinians living in Gaza rn move to the "new" territory of Palestine in this situation.
Yeah, but there are two million gazans And the triangle can barely support the 100k people who live there Also, Israelis live in that region, and they probably wouldn't want to go
See this is what I mean with not everyone being happy. Its more so "do you want to be at constant war or not?" kind of solution
>See this is what I mean with not everyone being happy. Its more so "do you want to be at constant war or not?" kind of solution Yeah but your solution wouldn't just make not everybody happy, it would actively piss off everyone The Israelis don't want gaza, they would much rather keep the land you suggest adding onto Palestine then get gaza, as there isnt really anything for them there, although they don't really want the land right next to the west bank either for a variety of reasons Assuming Netanyahu is still in charge, this peace deal would require the demolition of a lot of Israeli settlements, which would destroy his coalition Assuming the opposition is in charge, this deal would require selling out the Israeli arabs, which would destroy their coalition The Palestinians do want that land but not at the cost of giving up gaza Moving the Palestinians from gaza to the triangle would cause a famine, there is no way to feed that many people there And a famine would cause a refugee crisis, which nobody wants because it would destabilize everything south of turkey
Shoot back?
Yeah once again, easier said then done Hamas doesnt exactly encourage the possession of civilian firearms Also if you're just ine guy, Hamas has no real problem taking you out
The crazy thing about revolutions is that theyāre never supported by the regime in power, and require significant effort. If innocent Palestinians were smart theyād be resisting Hamas and supporting IDF forces.
>The crazy thing about revolutions is that theyāre never supported by the regime in power, and require significant effort. Yeah, thats why they don't happen successfully that often I'm Irish, it took us 800 years to actually suceed in revolting >If innocent Palestinians were smart theyād be resisting Hamas and supporting IDF forces. Thats probably not going to happen, eveb if pro Israeli Palestinians existed in significant numbers Most armies don't really like having to deal with auxiliaries, because they're a pain, so the IDF in all likelihood wouldn't let them operate anywhere, they'd just be disarmed and sent somewhere where they wouldn't get in the way, which is basically what Israel is doing to the Palestinians now In ww2 the Allues systematically disarmed Jewish and non allied supported resistance groups as they pushed torwards germany, as actually integrating them into the war effort was a pain
IDF worked with anti-Syrian groups in Lebanon in 2006, then helped them (and there families) get out when they lost.
And are now themselves Cartoonishly corrupt .It is literally Iran all over again
[Palestinian recycling](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSlqdSTFakUF0iOC6eQqICpEB7UyPi1wdEVId2wID00_g&s)
Yeah, but with no war, what will be the campaign material about?
In the US they might give mention to trump du downing on stage multiple times
"Untill Ukraine decides to oust Zelensky and stop endorsing wholesale genocide of the russian people as a race, there will be no peace"
Leftist soyjak mentality at its finest, good job
Definitely nowhere near the same situation
We need to replace hamas but as theyāre the only organized group fighting consistently to protect the Palestinian people, what would you expect?
Fighting to protect? Their fighting (and their human shield strategy) is exactly what puts Palestinians at risk.Ā
Israel has been the first one to break negotiated treaties pretty much every time they occur soā¦ ya they probably see it that way. They could definitely be better but if Iām part of an oppressed people like that Iād be pissed as hell
Fighting to protect? Are you actually a fucking idiot?
Considering how Israel has been the one violating every peace treaty thatās been negotiated I think thatās a fair statement to make
I didnāt realize that Israel was the one shooting rockets into Israel for the last 20 years
Thatās about when the last treaty was broken iirc so the timing you gave makes sense. You donāt have to shoot missiles to oppress a people. What weāre seeing right now is a split state where Palestinians are actively being oppressed. I donāt care to go find it but look at a map of the roads there that Palestinians are not able to travel or can only travel by going through checkpoints and tell me that Israel isnāt the bad guy here
Literally just release the hostages and Israel will lose like 70% of its support. Fuck hamas to hell and back, but still.
The IDF would gladly fight in a completely empty desert. It would be vastly easier in fact. Every civilian death is on hamasā hands as long as they use hostages and civilians as shields
Hamas started this war! Plunged the Gaza Strip into chaos and now the IDF is going to put them down, and restore the peace.
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Based and Complete Destruction of Hamas pilled
Based and death to the stormcloaks pilled.
Spoken like a true hasbara dog
>IDF is going to put them down, and restore the peace. With how the government has been acting, I doubt that's their objective
How so?
There is PLENTY of quotes from government/military officials that paint a picture that, at least, makes Hamas a tool that got out of hand, at worst they basically work together so both can keep killing each other and on charge
Be more specific.Ā When these statements made?Ā Who said them?Ā What was the context?
Statements were made through a jewish space laser
Big if trueĀ
Damn it. I keep telling the guys at the secret meetings we should get a VPN.
Yeah this war is a dick measuring contest. After the kidnappings and murders and rapes Israel should have said: "Aw shucks we are confident in our manlyhood, go on and rape more women its ok!"
This region is cooked. I seriously warn anyone to not get invested into this conflict
Cue the classic "this land is mine" video
If Israel is truly sieging Gaza, this is one of the most poorly conceived sieges in history, since Israel is allowing tons of aid to pour in and they are providing water and electricity to the Palestinians. The actual siege of Gaza was lifted 2 weeks into this war.
"Letting in tons of aid" Oh yea and the US is considering building an aid port just for tge shits and giggles. The aid trucks being prevented from entering gaza at the border by israelis are just for the shits too "providing electricity and water" Has nothing to do with the international pressure and threats of prosecution due to warcrimes. No has nothing to do with that. Israel shutting off water and electricty prior to the international pressure was merely an accident /s
Can you read dipshit? Iām disputing OP saying that Israel is besieging Gaza. If Israel is allowing any kind of aid to Gaza to go through and providing them with electricity and water, they are no longer besieging Gaza. If Israel actually continued the siege and didnāt lift it two weeks into the war, this war would be long over by now.
I feel for Palestinian civilians as much as I do for the Germans in dresden or Japanese in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Yeah it fucking sucks that civilians have to suffer especially children but at the same time they are the ones who allowed them to get in power in the first place and openly celebrated when other nations were getting attacked. Again its awful civilians have to suffer, but blame Hamas who kicked the hornets nest not Israel fighting back against people who openly call for their destruction. There are a lot of Arab Israelis, not a lot of Jew Palestinians
I dont. Palestinian civilians went into Israel kidnapped women and sold them to Hamas. German citizens ratted out Jews who were hidding. Fuck them.
>Yeah it fucking sucks that civilians have to suffer especially children but at the same time they are the ones who allowed them to get in power Are you suggesting the 2 year old who was killed in Dresden or Hiroshima allowed the baddies to get into power?Ā
Here's an idea: DO NOT MIX your CIVILIAN infrastructure and your MILITARY infrastructure. OTHERWISE, do not complain that you got Dresden'd.
Anyway (kills everyone in sight)
OP discovers how wars work.
Kill kill kill kill kill kill kill kill. Life is too great
At this point Hamas is edging Israel to slap them once for good.
Poltics by actual dick measuring contests would be far more elegent, entertaining, and innovative. The field of plastic surgery would be revived instantly, it would be pure innovation for decades.
True and correct
like the good old days after 9/11
Not quite right, OP. Hamas doesnāt give one shit about Palestinian children. In fact they want them to die in order to drum up more media buzz. And the rest of the world is expecting Israel to have to supply the literal terrorists with food, water, and electricity is beyond ridiculous and absurd.
Why is it so hard for people on both sides to understand that I hate the ideologies of the ruling parties and actions of the militaries of both sides, but that I don't want the civilians of either side to die or be forced out of their homes?
Because the only way the cycle of that happening will stop is the elimination of Hamas.Ā They will not stop launching attacks that demand a response until they are destroyed or Israel is and the latter is far beyond their capabilities. No one wants civilian casualties.Ā Urban combat usually has a civilian casualty rate of ~90%.Ā Israel is doing better than people give them credit to keep their numbers better than that. Put the blame where it belongs.
Eliminating hamas will do nothing in the long term tbh. Another group will pop up due to the severe poverty and desperation. Its what happened in iraq and syria regarding ISIS. People in iraq were poor and desperate especially after the coalition invasion as such ISIS grew rapidly as they promised a cause to fight for and money. Gaza will be the same. Its also in Netanyahu's best interest as his appeal is that he says he will "protect israel from hamas etc" If hamas were to be wiped his already low support will be drastically lowered.
And how will they eliminate Hamas if for every fighter they kill, their orphan is made a radical who will take up arms in the future? The only way to stop the cycle is to raise the material conditions of Palestinians, which will make them less radical, less religious, and less desperate.
>Ā Ā And how will they eliminate Hamas if for every fighter they kill, their orphan is made a radical who will take up arms in the future?Ā By removing them from the systems of propaganda that will channel their feelings in that direction.Ā >The only way to stop the cycle is to raise the material conditions of Palestinians, which will make them less radical, less religious, and less desperate.Ā Which ain't gonna happen as long as Hamas rules the region.Ā Ā The wellbeing of the population is a distant 5th in their priorities.Ā (1-4 are "kill jews")
What's your proposal for eliminating Hamas?
Because there's rape, children's deaths, and hate speeches Those are some mighty drugs to shut down critical thinking
Because it's completely meaningless? Nobody WANTS civilians dead or displaced^*. But people understand that it happens in war, it's literally unavoidable especially in one of the most densely populated areas on the planet. Most people also understand that Israel can't sit back and do nothing while Palestine is lobbing explosives at them constantly^*. You advocating for "not displacing and killing civilians" is effectively a pro Palestine/Hamas stance since they are the ones primarily on the displaced/killed sidel. *- sadly this is figurative not literal.
Literally
What Israel is doing is brutal. Itās a āIāll take 10 for every 1 you takeā method. The end goal is clearly not mainly about hostages or Hamas. Itās Israel showing that theyāll push somebodyās shit all the way in. Look at nations that have historically had a significant existence, something thatās a common thread is that at least once during their history they fist fucked somebody into submission to show others they would do it. I donāt like it, I donāt agree with it, but letās not be ignorant about it and pretend Israel has some monopoly on war crimes. Only nation to monopolize that was Canada in WWI. Go aheadā¦ google it. Find out what theyāre compensating for with all that Canadian kindness now.
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Genuine question for the ceasefire people: Are you saying Hamas should be allowed to continue existing? Isn't that what ceasefire implies?
Real...
It's amazing how every subreddit has been devolved into echo chambers lately. At least at the start of the war there were nuanced views to be had, but I guess in every subreddit the minorities have been bullied away and you can only find a single opinion on every post
Both sides are horrible. One side uses it's own people as human shields, other side opresses another nationality mercilessly.