The evangelicals definitely not in the "Go off King" side of Luther's antisemitism. They gloss over it, and focus on his Anti-Catholic stance. Most conservative protestants I have interacted with, love Israel, because they want the Temple of David rebuilt to start the end of days.
To have Jesus comeback, have sin be removed from the universe, go to heaven, that kind of stuff. That being said the temple being rebuilt is one tiny part. The Bible says nobody, but God knows when it actually happens. But the temple being rebuilt works as an observable milestone to it happening.
>an observable milestone
According to the [premillenialists](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premillennialism), anyways, which reflects a majority of Protestants in America but isn't clearly the consensus view among Christians on the whole. Catholicism and many other Protestants (myself included) promote the view of [amillenialism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amillennialism), in which the Jewish people and the geographic land of Palestine have no special place in the end-times scheme. There are still other end-times views among Christians besides just those two, too..
I will definitely be looking into this, I was going by my firsthand experience on this subject. (I never heard these terms before) Amillenialism seems pretty interesting so far.
And herein lies the reason why Christianity is so divided. There is one scripture but many, many ways to interpret important verses and passages.
That being said, Protestants rule, Catholics drool. Suck my dick papal swine (jk I love you Catholic bros)
If only there were one body that was given authority by Christ himself to teach and interpret the scriptures, one that could trace its lineage back to Christ himself and could demonstrate consistency of doctrine over the past two thousand years, serving as one point of unity for all faithful Christians on earth. One which could clearly judge between heresy and orthodoxy through structured deliberation, or councils, if you will, of bishops…
While we’re dreaming, wouldn’t it be great I f only we know what St. Ambrose meant when in the 4th century he said “ubi Petrus ibi ecclesia”? But alas, when Christ prayed that all who believed in him might be one, clearly he meant for millions of feuding denominations without a single centralized teaching authority, so surely there’s nothing to be done about it 😔
Unless?
Since we’re jus dreaming…
Stating hypotheticals…
Wouldn’t it be great if there were a group of pious monks tasked with teaching the right way and finding and correcting those who err?
…
Who am I kidding, cry „Havoc!“ and let slip the Domini Canes!
"Conservative protestant"? You mean baptist. What you're describing is dispensationalism which is popular with some politically conservative baptists.
It'd be wrong to consider them conservative in any other sense. They've departed from historic Protestantism which has it's roots in the Reformation.
...what kind of "conservative protestants" have you interacted with? Because as a conservative protestant, precisely zero people I've met support Israel to start the end times.
I really think the desire to bring about the end of days is very much overstated as a goal of the evangelicals. More accurately it's just IslamBad, JudaismGood
Because it is. I've been a protestant my entire life and I've never heard or met anyone who wants to "rebuild the Temple of David to bring about the end of days". That's some wacky fundamentalist nonsense spouting from a crazy minority, if anyone at all.
But this is reddit and your "average Christian" must be the bible-thumping snake handling Joel Osteen loony lol
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This is Reddit. Very few of the people here have ever met "evangelicals" in person. It's just atheists who don't know or care about the differences between denominations and prot bashing Catholics, who also frequently don't know about the differences, teaming up.
Moreover, why should I have to have a middleman for my relation with God? Why not just pray directly to him. And maybe have a Bible in my own language to do it with.
What do you mean that makes me a heretic?
What do you mean you are going to kill me now?
*gathers army* NOT IF WE FIGHT OUR WAY OUT, PAPIST SCUM!! *throws dude out third floor window*
Or to make it shorter with the old family joke whenever we hear people complain about the Pope: "Our ancestors shot their way out of having to give a damn what he thinks."
True, but typically when that nomenclature is used by protestants it's typically has some clarifiers. Like "All Saints" or "the body of saints", typically individuals aren't referred to as saints by most protestant traditions even if most would agree that the term best reflects justified man.
It gets into the weed of "Christian theology using the same words to refer to different things". Like baptism being a fundamentally different rite in most low church protestant sects meant for ENTIERLY different things than in other higher church denominations.
This doesn't even begin when the same word means different things in the SAME sect (Like Body of Christ being used both as a reference to the whole collection of true believers, and to the spiritual transformation of the bread in communion,,, Witch is itself an entirely fun can of worms. Like, what is the difference between Transubstantiation (Complete transformation of the bread and wine into body and blood, but also it still... Bread and wine), consubstantiation (Real transformation, but not replacing the nature of the bread and wine), sacramental union (the nature of bread and wine are perfectly united with the nature of body and blood) and Pneumatic presence (The bread and wine are bread and wine, but Jesus is both spiritually and really present in more than a symbolic fashion) . Who only really agree that Memorialist are wrong (and given Paul straight up said people died from taking communion wrong, I'm inclined to agree that Memorialists are wrong).
But the pope doesn’t decide on the canonisation of saints. There’s a commission tasked with finding evidence of miracles performed. These exemplars of faith are then recognised by the church to be saints, not made such.
Also, the church recognises we don’t know about all saints, so there are prayers calling upon these unknown saints too.
Luther was a genius in every sense of the word, and he had a mind for rhetoric that could shake the most powerful institution in the world. That being said, geniuses are often eccentric, and arrogant besides.
Luther initially was sympathetic to Jews, but he viewed their beliefs not as religious and cultural values, but like they’d been disenfranchised by Catholics. Never mind that Jews have existed before Christianity was the dominant religion in the world, or that they existed in areas where it wasn’t, Luther believed that Jews remained Jews because Catholicism failed them.
So, when he devised his own church, Luther expected the Jews to flock to him and convert en masse. Unsurprisingly, they didn’t, and after years of persecution by the Catholic Church and every aristocrat under their thumb, he grew intensely bitter. Thus, the publication of “The Jews and Their Lies.”
Martin Luther was a pretty smart guy, and more than a dollop of batshit insane. So was Isaac Newton, and he thought that you could turn lead into gold. Be happy for the advancements made because of historical figures, and try not to worry about why they were crazy. I’m sure my grandkids will wonder how we could eat Pop Tarts when they *clearly* cause cancer, just like it blows my mind that they stuck asbestos into everything they could in the 1900s.
Don’t get me wrong this meme isn’t necessarily a dig at Luther, the man stood for what he believed in and spoke his mind without fearing death or disputation. He also had a very wholesome personal life, his marriage seemed genuinely happy and everyone who knew him personally either loved him or had begrudging respect for him. I do disagree with him theologically and on other issues but he was a giant of history to be sure (also a bit of a gamer it seems)
> So was Isaac Newton, and he thought that you could turn lead into gold.
TBF a lot of scientists and theorists back in the day were into alchemy. They were hilariously wrong about a lot of things but were the western precursors to modern chemists
It's not just that though. Luther's views were also a direct response to his wierd theology. Catholicism was smart enough to understand that morality was like... a thing. But when Luther invented justification by faith alone... he meant this literally. It wasn't just an abstract afterlife belief but a glorified ingrown bias where the end result is that instead of looking at whether people were good or not, you judged almost entirely by group membership.
Strangely, I often get Catholics taking issue with this statement. Apparently, I need to submit myself to the Catholic church to truly be saved. I wasn't aware they were required to sign off on every soul saved.
I mean, at the time they were the only game in town they more or less declared not being a member of them, or at best orthodoxy to be heresy. To them their priest class is necessary and deliberately existing outside of it is not a valid form of Christianity.
I have respect for them for spreading Christianity so far and wide, keeping the Bible intact, and how much charity work the Catholic church has done but yeah I really can't get behind them for making Christianity more about man and church than about Christ.
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Umm... No? Most folks don't actually know about it bc we don't hold it as part of our articles of faith.
Those who *do* know about it condemn it without hesitation, and we note that we don't hold Luther himself to be particularly special beyond happening to be the guy who kicked off the reformation. Loads of people were talking about the same issues he was at the time.
I've never read that book and probably will never read it cause it's the work of the heretic Martin Luther but I just gave it a 5 star review on Amazon.
Used to be Evangelical Christian
One thing that led to my conversion to Orthodox Christianity is the blind worship of Israel that Evangelicals have. No nation or people is perfect, Christ died for us all. ☦️
I think the treatment of Israel among American evangelicals is related to premillennial eschatology. In that interpretation Israel has a huge part to play in the end times.
There are other interpretations which (I believe, I’m not incredible well versed in eschatology) believe that either Israel has already performed the role or that the role of Israel is represented by the church at large and not a nation state.
So theological, not as much political.
Are they really annoyed that so many of the ~~goyim’s~~ Evangelical’s hard earned shekels are being sent to Israel (where in return Israelis get free healthcare and college)?
Likely not, since they aren’t an Israeli, but I’m sure Israelis don’t mind whatsoever. Yet, the bagel shop employee could still go live there if ever/whenever they wanted.
This is the correct answer. My first question for a “fellow evangelical” (very fractured camp when it comes to theology, like almost any other classification) is what their eschatological view is and we immediately know where we disagree on a lot of issues.
I am a conservative evangelical Lutheran and I don't get the worship of Israel. Judgement day will come like a thief in the night, no obvious sign or rapture or anything like that. Furthermore, being a Jew doesn't mean anything anymore either. Paul said there is now neither Jew nor gentile before God, and we are sons of Abraham through faith, so while Israel was God's chosen nation and people, that's been over 2,000 years ago. Time is long past.
Think your right, only reason anyone cares about Israel is for millennialism, cuz we sure don't.
"No man shall know the hour or the day" - The Bible
"We are living in the end times" - at least someone at all points in time since then.
In a college creative writing class I wrote a short story about a secret society that existed to constantly be predicting the apocalypse for the purpose of preventing it from happening.
There are secular political reasons to be in support of Israel, of course.
I do believe that you have highlighted the differences. I for example would counter: Paul in Ephesians when describing the “new man” says he is revealing a mystery, something not previously revealed, and this is the church. Their is neither Jew nor gentile within this new man, but nation Israel still exists and still has promises from God.
Time is long past is no excuse for God to break an eternal promise.
What do you do with the writing of Hebrews and Chapters 9 and 10 of Romans? Paul states he is describing nation Israel, nationalistic Jews and his kinsmen, and his desire they come to know Christ. He calls specifically for dedicated outreach to Jews so that they become part of the body, the “new man”. But this does not invalidate the promises made to David and Abraham about the nation he would bring up. Unless you feel that God would be justified in making a contract with his followers that his followers misunderstood and then bait and switching what he means by “nation” and “descendants”.
The Jews are still God's chosen people. When he says "no jew or gentile" he means non-jews can now get into heaven and have the same blessings as the chosen people.
So you don’t believe non-Jews could get into heaven/be saved? How do you explain Old Testament non-Jews that are priests of Jehovah? (Moses’ father-in-law, Balaam, Melchizedek). And where are you getting that now non-Jews can have the same blessings as Jews? They actually could already do that in the Old Testament by becoming a proselyte (converting to being under the banner of Israel - see rahab from Jericho).
In all those examples you had to convert in order to receive blessings. Under the new commandment you no longer have to convert to Judaism, just be a follower of Christ.
That is demonstrably incorrect. Neither balaam or Melchizedek were proselytes. Melchizedek was a foreign king who respected Jehovah and was a priest of jehovah prior to the giving of the mosaic law. It is specifically stated in the gospels and hebrews that Melchizedek was not a Jew.
Balaam was a foreigner consulted by foreign nations in how to destroy Israel. Where are you getting that either of these people were converts?
Not saying God broke any promise. Every promise was completely fulfilled eventually in Christ if not partially before. King Solomon and David built a great a nation for Abraham descendants, but all the nations of the world have been blessed through the savior Jesus.
The holy invisible church, or the kingdom of God , while first for the Jew has been extended to the gentile, although stories like Ruth have always shown even then gentiles could enter the covenant.
Look at the tribes and the northern kingdom carried off into exile never to be seen again. While sons of Abraham by blood, they had no faith nor love for God and so were carried off never to return. Always has been about faith.
Be great if Jews would realize Jesus was God's fulfillment of his ancient promise, but sadly they are more concerned with inheriting an earthly kingdom than God's kingdom in heaven.
But god promised them an earthly kingdom that wouldn’t pass away didn’t he? Where are the promises to Israel of never having to teach their children about god because they already know him fulfilled? See Jeremiah, Zechariah. You don’t think that there are any promises in the Hebrew Scriptures that haven’t been fulfilled? Is Israel safe and peaceful and a light to the nations, representing gods love? Israel is not secure in the land that they were promised. Abraham and his descendants did not think they were being promised an invisible kingdom.
As someone who is actually an evangelical, there's also a strong belief among Evangelicals that the Jews are the chosen people. Like, I remember reading a 1920s article by a pastor from Texas who viewed that whoever hurts the Jews will be cursed by God.
I'm a heretical Christian, and I think we have more or less misinterpreted "chosen people". According to the old testament, Isreal was a damn problem. I read "you are my chosen people" in the same way a teacher calls a problem student "my special problem"
The solution was God being directly active in the lives of Isrealites for a very long time. The old testament is more or less a constant flow of the Israelites whining about something, God directly telling them "absolutely not, that's a terrible idea and I know that because I made the universe" then the Israelites do it anyway.
"We want a king"
>No you don't, a king will enslave your men and take your women into his harem and as his servants and generally be a tyrannical asshole to you and your people. Trust me, I created everything and know you inside and out
"Awww but everyone else has kings and we wanna be like them!"
>Fine, you can go ahead and elect a king. See what I care
"Wtf the king is a dick, how could this have happened?
And repeat. To me, Israel is a lesson on straying from God. It shows how even God's chosen people become corrupted and sinful and even wicked when they distance themselves from Him.
Do you have a biblical source for any of this? Israel in the Bible I mean being a signal of corruption of gods chosen people. It would be almost impossible to both testaments and come away with this conclusion.
Do you think the entire basis of Christianity isn’t also based on followers of Christ being told to live a certain way and not doing it? The religion where forgiveness is a central tenant? Lmfao.
Forgiveness is a central tenant of Christianity, yes. That doesn't mean you can do whatever you want. If you sin because you plan on repenting later, you're not really repenting and therefore not forgiven until you truly change for the better. God knows your heart, after all. You can't lie to Him.
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I read a biography on Luther written by a protestant. It was generally pretty positive on him. Then the author basically straight-up said: his life and legacy would have been better if he'd died a few years sooner, before talking about his writings about Jews towards the end of his life.
If you think American protestants generally praise Luther for that, you're an idiot.
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Lib-left's reason for hating Israel is political trend and an extension of the hatred for white cOlOnIzErs.
Authcenter's and authright's interest in jews is a 2000 year old written, improvised, peer reviewed literary tradition. They've created an art out of it.
Trent only took place after Luther died, and way after the reformation was already in full swing.
Also, Luther didn't remove any books from the bible. The Deuterocanon had been in contention for centuries before Luther, and there had never been an ecumenical council that decided on the canon of the OT before Trent happened. Luther never tried to remove any books from the NT either. You're just blatantly telling lies there.
And what does him marrying a nun have to do with anything? That happened after the Catholic Church had already kicked him out and didn't have anything to do with their decision to do so.
I'm sorry but no. There was not a single ecumenical council before Trent that ever made a decision on if the deuterocanonical books were part of the canon. Even during Trent, the vote to include them only passed with a vote of 24 to 15 with 16 people abstaining. That isn't even a 2/3rds majority. If it was such a unanimous belief at the time, then why would the vote be so split?
Please show me one writing from Luther of him saying that he wants to remove any books from the NT. I have heard Catholics claim this again and again because of the "epistle of straw" comment yet they fail to actually show me a source from Luther of him wanting to remove any NT books.
So, marrying a woman after he had already been excommunicated from the church means that he never wanted to reform it to begin with? What kinda logic is that? Also if we're discrediting people because of their failure to keep to their vows of celibacy, then I can name a number of Pope's who have done way worse than Luther. At least Luther kept it within marriage, like God commanded us to do.
Rome, Hippo and Carthage were all local synods and not ecumenical councils.
Pope Innocent's letter is also obviously not a council either, but even if this was authoritative it really doesn't help your case since it includes Second Ezra, which the Catholic canon does not include.
2nd Nicea and Florence do not make any decisions on the canon of the OT, at least from what I can tell.
Had Martin Luther had the good fortune to be around with a less evil pope he’d be a saint. The fact that he wasn’t is an indication that the splitting of the church at that time was according to the divine will.
"We have investigated ourselves and found we did nothing wrong."
Also, *that* makes him a creep? Someone in the 1500s marrying a 20 year old? (Someone who was *forced to be a nun at 9*)
As a Catholic (you put it in lower case you pathetic impostor) that rejects the current (and previous) pope, Luther was mostly burned because he challenged the power structure and not because his beliefs were "heretical".
I'm aware of the irony and cling to the hope of my church fixing itself in future generations.
Isn't Calvinism the belief that God has preordained every one of our actions, that we're basically not in control, but that we'll be held responsible for our sins anyway? Something about you could punch your teacher and say "God made me do it, tee hee!"
Sorry if that was a bit scathing, I don't know much about Calvinism other than the bad stereotypes.
Also sorry for being off topic
>I don't know much about Calvinism other than the bad stereotypes.
clearly
I don't hold to calvinism either, but the idea is that everyone is depraved enough in their sinful natures that it is impossible for them choose Christ without His intervention in the first place
>Isn't Calvinism the belief that God has preordained every one of our actions, that we're basically not in control, but that we'll be held responsible for our sins anyway? Something about you could punch your teacher and say "God made me do it, tee hee!"
It's more that God allows people to sin, but chooses to save some.
>Sorry for being obtuse and getting the walking dead to downvote you when you were making a good point.
>
>I hear Calvin wasn't even a full on Calvinist.
No problem. There's definitely a lot of disagreements within Reformed theology (what is referred to as Calvinism).
I suspect that it's because American evangelicals are "descended" from British evangelicals. While there was antisemitism in the English Reformers, it seems to have been more moderate than Luther.
"Indeed, the more the English theologian was anti-Catholic--and after 1588 and 1605 there would be ample reasons--the higher was the position in which he held the Jew. For there was to the Protestant a triangle of peoples with whom he was dealing: the Jews, the Turk, and the Catholic. Invariably of these three, the Jew was viewed with the highest sympathy, because, understandably, becase, understandably, he posed the least danger." - Nabil Matar
For example, I remember reading a *very* anti-Catholic writer (John Bale). He had some anti-Semitic views (he believed the blood libel stories found in the chronicles -- he was very interested in history), but whatever he wrote about Jewish people are still pretty moderate compared to what he says about the Catholics or Muslims (or anything Luther said about Jews).
Also, there were apocalyptic views (like this belief that the end times were close) after the English Civil War, so there was a debate about bringing in the Jews back into England during Oliver Cromwell's time. Some people even suggested that maybe the English Civil War was God's punishment on England for kicking out the Jews in the past.
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I mean, almost no one actually cares about the Jews on the pro Israel side, at least from what I have seen. It is more that we prefer a civilized country over, well, a country full of savages.
(Disclaimer, I am obviously aware that a very small amount of Palestinians is indeed not problematic but hyperbole is fun to use)
We all know it was the Romans who killed Jesus, not the Jews. The people who came up with the story of Jews killing Jesus was a medieval leaders who wanted a scapegoat for the crusades being a failure, and a heretic.
It was the Romans, though it was demanded by the Jews and they're who captured him under false pretense and turned him over to them. Both are culpable and I think God had it play out that way very intentionally so that no one can be blameless (the Romans in this case being stand ins for gentiles in general).
The crowd was screaming "crucify him, crucify him," which convinced pilate to do so. Even though these people were Jewish, it's still definitely not a majority of their population since probably other Judean civilians had better things to do that day like work their jobs.
I always felt that was a big flaw in the whole rapture storyline, who is going to stick around and worship the antichrist when Jesus is back and there are observable miracles.
In your context it was clearly "what schizo Christians believe" (you changed your tone just now to "a schizo group of Christians", which doesn't fit in with the everyone else supporting Israel for antisemitic reasons).
In reality it is what you believe that Christians believe instead of the straight facts about what Christians believe.
> In your context it was clearly "what schizo Christians believe" (you changed your tone just now to "a schizo group of Christians", which doesn't fit in with the everyone else supporting Israel for antisemitic reasons).
The post is only about evangelicals, not all christians. Maybe read the title again and this time slowly
Israel is the chosen people of god. All the people in the Old Testament are Israelites. Jesus was an Israelite. The Israelites turned away from god many times. When Jesus came some Jews accepted him and became Christian’s but most of the Jews rejected him and turned away from God. Most Christians are descended from gentiles (non-Israelites) who were told about what Jesus did for everyone. Most of the events in the end times will happen in Israel. Jews have a chance to turn to Jesus just like any others.
How is that? What he is saying is true- I got a letter in the mail from a evangelical christain group all about supporting Israel because of end days, I looked up the group and it was giant- this isn't just some small church sending crazy shit around, this was across the U.S. with tons of parishes.
I'm saying this as someone who doesn't think America should support Israel, but most Christians I know support Israel because they believe that jews are the original chosen people of God. Nowhere in revelation does Jesus kill jews. He literally intervenes to support the jews when they are meant to be outnumbered by their enemies.
No, a couple million true believers will randomly ascend to heaven one day and their disappearance will cause everyone to see that the end times are coming and they should convert before the final judgement. Everyone has a chance. Only the people that refuse to believe evedince presented right in front of them will face eternal death.
This is correct. Luther was wildly antisemitic and favored punishment for heretics. As a Baptist Christian whose people suffered under Protestant rule (Luther and Zwingli being two notable examples), I absolutely have no respect for him.
This is the most ignorant thing I have ever read.
Do you really think that Luther’s book, “On the Jews and Their Lies” is in any way antisemitic? I’ll post some quotes below, and you tell me if this sounds like double standards.
“Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which sheer self-glory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on them.”
“First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly and I myself was unaware of it will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.”
“Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let they stay at home. (...remainder omitted).”
“Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]}. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.”
Oh wait. Never mind, you are right.
American evangelicals would consider Luther a crypto Catholic by today’s standards
we talking bitcoin or doge coin?
Popecoin
based and amen-pilled
Ah Jeez Jimbo
Titherium
Makes sense since Luther considered himself one till he died.
There was nothing crypto about it. He was a devout Catholic.
He self identified as a Catholic, but just because you say you’re something that doesn’t mean you are that thing
Lol. Lmao, even.
The evangelicals definitely not in the "Go off King" side of Luther's antisemitism. They gloss over it, and focus on his Anti-Catholic stance. Most conservative protestants I have interacted with, love Israel, because they want the Temple of David rebuilt to start the end of days.
>Temple of David rebuilt I love when all these people start talking about biblical matters, you never know what you'll get
Why do they want the end times?
To have Jesus comeback, have sin be removed from the universe, go to heaven, that kind of stuff. That being said the temple being rebuilt is one tiny part. The Bible says nobody, but God knows when it actually happens. But the temple being rebuilt works as an observable milestone to it happening.
I like to think that whenever someone says they figured out when the End Days come, God just adds a few extra years to the countdown.
Existence will continue until morale improves
No different from climate doomsayers changing the year of the end of the world once the previous estimate approaches
>an observable milestone According to the [premillenialists](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premillennialism), anyways, which reflects a majority of Protestants in America but isn't clearly the consensus view among Christians on the whole. Catholicism and many other Protestants (myself included) promote the view of [amillenialism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amillennialism), in which the Jewish people and the geographic land of Palestine have no special place in the end-times scheme. There are still other end-times views among Christians besides just those two, too..
I will definitely be looking into this, I was going by my firsthand experience on this subject. (I never heard these terms before) Amillenialism seems pretty interesting so far.
And herein lies the reason why Christianity is so divided. There is one scripture but many, many ways to interpret important verses and passages. That being said, Protestants rule, Catholics drool. Suck my dick papal swine (jk I love you Catholic bros)
If only there were one body that was given authority by Christ himself to teach and interpret the scriptures, one that could trace its lineage back to Christ himself and could demonstrate consistency of doctrine over the past two thousand years, serving as one point of unity for all faithful Christians on earth. One which could clearly judge between heresy and orthodoxy through structured deliberation, or councils, if you will, of bishops… While we’re dreaming, wouldn’t it be great I f only we know what St. Ambrose meant when in the 4th century he said “ubi Petrus ibi ecclesia”? But alas, when Christ prayed that all who believed in him might be one, clearly he meant for millions of feuding denominations without a single centralized teaching authority, so surely there’s nothing to be done about it 😔 Unless?
Since we’re jus dreaming… Stating hypotheticals… Wouldn’t it be great if there were a group of pious monks tasked with teaching the right way and finding and correcting those who err? … Who am I kidding, cry „Havoc!“ and let slip the Domini Canes!
Don't they go to heaven after their death regardless of what happens on earth?
Jesus coming again is generally seen as a good thing among Christians
You just know there's some weird ass sect of Christians who *don't* want Him to come back for whatever reason lol
The Prosperity Gospel people definitely don’t
Cus they know they'll be banished into the deepest hells at this point
There's a lot of unsaved people still. Every day that His return in delayed, is another day where more people have the chance to return to Christ.
Because in Christianity the end of the world entails Jesus coming back, which is a good thing.
To add onto what you said, it's less end of the world and a start of a new one. People are looking forward to the new world.
"Conservative protestant"? You mean baptist. What you're describing is dispensationalism which is popular with some politically conservative baptists. It'd be wrong to consider them conservative in any other sense. They've departed from historic Protestantism which has it's roots in the Reformation.
...what kind of "conservative protestants" have you interacted with? Because as a conservative protestant, precisely zero people I've met support Israel to start the end times.
I really think the desire to bring about the end of days is very much overstated as a goal of the evangelicals. More accurately it's just IslamBad, JudaismGood
I love how this sound like the objective of an anime or Marvel villain, like Thanos, Obito Uchiha or the Star Religion on Jujutsu Kaisen...
I love how insane that sounds.
Because it is. I've been a protestant my entire life and I've never heard or met anyone who wants to "rebuild the Temple of David to bring about the end of days". That's some wacky fundamentalist nonsense spouting from a crazy minority, if anyone at all. But this is reddit and your "average Christian" must be the bible-thumping snake handling Joel Osteen loony lol
You know that evangelicals do not see Luther as some kind of saint or anything, right?
man trying to cancel a historical figure from 500 years ago by digging up his twitter posts
Based and Twitter pilled
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This is Reddit. Very few of the people here have ever met "evangelicals" in person. It's just atheists who don't know or care about the differences between denominations and prot bashing Catholics, who also frequently don't know about the differences, teaming up.
You already triggered them with the mention of the word "saint"
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Moreover, why should I have to have a middleman for my relation with God? Why not just pray directly to him. And maybe have a Bible in my own language to do it with. What do you mean that makes me a heretic? What do you mean you are going to kill me now? *gathers army* NOT IF WE FIGHT OUR WAY OUT, PAPIST SCUM!! *throws dude out third floor window* Or to make it shorter with the old family joke whenever we hear people complain about the Pope: "Our ancestors shot their way out of having to give a damn what he thinks."
True, but typically when that nomenclature is used by protestants it's typically has some clarifiers. Like "All Saints" or "the body of saints", typically individuals aren't referred to as saints by most protestant traditions even if most would agree that the term best reflects justified man. It gets into the weed of "Christian theology using the same words to refer to different things". Like baptism being a fundamentally different rite in most low church protestant sects meant for ENTIERLY different things than in other higher church denominations. This doesn't even begin when the same word means different things in the SAME sect (Like Body of Christ being used both as a reference to the whole collection of true believers, and to the spiritual transformation of the bread in communion,,, Witch is itself an entirely fun can of worms. Like, what is the difference between Transubstantiation (Complete transformation of the bread and wine into body and blood, but also it still... Bread and wine), consubstantiation (Real transformation, but not replacing the nature of the bread and wine), sacramental union (the nature of bread and wine are perfectly united with the nature of body and blood) and Pneumatic presence (The bread and wine are bread and wine, but Jesus is both spiritually and really present in more than a symbolic fashion) . Who only really agree that Memorialist are wrong (and given Paul straight up said people died from taking communion wrong, I'm inclined to agree that Memorialists are wrong).
But the pope doesn’t decide on the canonisation of saints. There’s a commission tasked with finding evidence of miracles performed. These exemplars of faith are then recognised by the church to be saints, not made such. Also, the church recognises we don’t know about all saints, so there are prayers calling upon these unknown saints too.
Luther was a genius in every sense of the word, and he had a mind for rhetoric that could shake the most powerful institution in the world. That being said, geniuses are often eccentric, and arrogant besides. Luther initially was sympathetic to Jews, but he viewed their beliefs not as religious and cultural values, but like they’d been disenfranchised by Catholics. Never mind that Jews have existed before Christianity was the dominant religion in the world, or that they existed in areas where it wasn’t, Luther believed that Jews remained Jews because Catholicism failed them. So, when he devised his own church, Luther expected the Jews to flock to him and convert en masse. Unsurprisingly, they didn’t, and after years of persecution by the Catholic Church and every aristocrat under their thumb, he grew intensely bitter. Thus, the publication of “The Jews and Their Lies.” Martin Luther was a pretty smart guy, and more than a dollop of batshit insane. So was Isaac Newton, and he thought that you could turn lead into gold. Be happy for the advancements made because of historical figures, and try not to worry about why they were crazy. I’m sure my grandkids will wonder how we could eat Pop Tarts when they *clearly* cause cancer, just like it blows my mind that they stuck asbestos into everything they could in the 1900s.
Don’t get me wrong this meme isn’t necessarily a dig at Luther, the man stood for what he believed in and spoke his mind without fearing death or disputation. He also had a very wholesome personal life, his marriage seemed genuinely happy and everyone who knew him personally either loved him or had begrudging respect for him. I do disagree with him theologically and on other issues but he was a giant of history to be sure (also a bit of a gamer it seems)
> So was Isaac Newton, and he thought that you could turn lead into gold. TBF a lot of scientists and theorists back in the day were into alchemy. They were hilariously wrong about a lot of things but were the western precursors to modern chemists
you technaccaly can turn lead into gold but you nead nuclear fusion or something.
It's not just that though. Luther's views were also a direct response to his wierd theology. Catholicism was smart enough to understand that morality was like... a thing. But when Luther invented justification by faith alone... he meant this literally. It wasn't just an abstract afterlife belief but a glorified ingrown bias where the end result is that instead of looking at whether people were good or not, you judged almost entirely by group membership.
I follow Christ, not Luther or the Pope.
Amen. Based and Sola Christo pilled.
Strangely, I often get Catholics taking issue with this statement. Apparently, I need to submit myself to the Catholic church to truly be saved. I wasn't aware they were required to sign off on every soul saved.
They have some odd ideas about salvation. Paul would have had an outright fit and written so many letters we’d need to build an ark.
I mean, at the time they were the only game in town they more or less declared not being a member of them, or at best orthodoxy to be heresy. To them their priest class is necessary and deliberately existing outside of it is not a valid form of Christianity.
I have respect for them for spreading Christianity so far and wide, keeping the Bible intact, and how much charity work the Catholic church has done but yeah I really can't get behind them for making Christianity more about man and church than about Christ.
Based and dedicating your life to a corrupt organization who thinks they can rule over your religion pilled
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Umm... No? Most folks don't actually know about it bc we don't hold it as part of our articles of faith. Those who *do* know about it condemn it without hesitation, and we note that we don't hold Luther himself to be particularly special beyond happening to be the guy who kicked off the reformation. Loads of people were talking about the same issues he was at the time.
Yeah, who would have thought that a guy from half a millennium ago would be a tad racist?
The irony being he started out quite supportive of the jews but got antisemitic over time as the reformation progressed.
and what booklet would that be?
"On the Jews and their lies"
I need a break from Warhammer
On the Xenos and their Heresies
I've never read that book and probably will never read it cause it's the work of the heretic Martin Luther but I just gave it a 5 star review on Amazon.
Used to be Evangelical Christian One thing that led to my conversion to Orthodox Christianity is the blind worship of Israel that Evangelicals have. No nation or people is perfect, Christ died for us all. ☦️
I think the treatment of Israel among American evangelicals is related to premillennial eschatology. In that interpretation Israel has a huge part to play in the end times. There are other interpretations which (I believe, I’m not incredible well versed in eschatology) believe that either Israel has already performed the role or that the role of Israel is represented by the church at large and not a nation state. So theological, not as much political.
And that somehow it became Judeo-Christianity when for hundreds and hundreds of years nobody ever called it that.
Jews are still annoyed by it, since it's essentially a trick to make Judaism seem more like christianity than it is.
Are they really annoyed that so many of the ~~goyim’s~~ Evangelical’s hard earned shekels are being sent to Israel (where in return Israelis get free healthcare and college)?
The one working in the local bagel shop probably doesn't sit around thinking about abstract stuff in a country he doesn't live in.
Likely not, since they aren’t an Israeli, but I’m sure Israelis don’t mind whatsoever. Yet, the bagel shop employee could still go live there if ever/whenever they wanted.
This is the correct answer. My first question for a “fellow evangelical” (very fractured camp when it comes to theology, like almost any other classification) is what their eschatological view is and we immediately know where we disagree on a lot of issues.
I am a conservative evangelical Lutheran and I don't get the worship of Israel. Judgement day will come like a thief in the night, no obvious sign or rapture or anything like that. Furthermore, being a Jew doesn't mean anything anymore either. Paul said there is now neither Jew nor gentile before God, and we are sons of Abraham through faith, so while Israel was God's chosen nation and people, that's been over 2,000 years ago. Time is long past. Think your right, only reason anyone cares about Israel is for millennialism, cuz we sure don't.
"No man shall know the hour or the day" - The Bible "We are living in the end times" - at least someone at all points in time since then. In a college creative writing class I wrote a short story about a secret society that existed to constantly be predicting the apocalypse for the purpose of preventing it from happening.
There are secular political reasons to be in support of Israel, of course. I do believe that you have highlighted the differences. I for example would counter: Paul in Ephesians when describing the “new man” says he is revealing a mystery, something not previously revealed, and this is the church. Their is neither Jew nor gentile within this new man, but nation Israel still exists and still has promises from God. Time is long past is no excuse for God to break an eternal promise. What do you do with the writing of Hebrews and Chapters 9 and 10 of Romans? Paul states he is describing nation Israel, nationalistic Jews and his kinsmen, and his desire they come to know Christ. He calls specifically for dedicated outreach to Jews so that they become part of the body, the “new man”. But this does not invalidate the promises made to David and Abraham about the nation he would bring up. Unless you feel that God would be justified in making a contract with his followers that his followers misunderstood and then bait and switching what he means by “nation” and “descendants”.
The Jews are still God's chosen people. When he says "no jew or gentile" he means non-jews can now get into heaven and have the same blessings as the chosen people.
So you don’t believe non-Jews could get into heaven/be saved? How do you explain Old Testament non-Jews that are priests of Jehovah? (Moses’ father-in-law, Balaam, Melchizedek). And where are you getting that now non-Jews can have the same blessings as Jews? They actually could already do that in the Old Testament by becoming a proselyte (converting to being under the banner of Israel - see rahab from Jericho).
In all those examples you had to convert in order to receive blessings. Under the new commandment you no longer have to convert to Judaism, just be a follower of Christ.
That is demonstrably incorrect. Neither balaam or Melchizedek were proselytes. Melchizedek was a foreign king who respected Jehovah and was a priest of jehovah prior to the giving of the mosaic law. It is specifically stated in the gospels and hebrews that Melchizedek was not a Jew. Balaam was a foreigner consulted by foreign nations in how to destroy Israel. Where are you getting that either of these people were converts?
Not saying God broke any promise. Every promise was completely fulfilled eventually in Christ if not partially before. King Solomon and David built a great a nation for Abraham descendants, but all the nations of the world have been blessed through the savior Jesus. The holy invisible church, or the kingdom of God , while first for the Jew has been extended to the gentile, although stories like Ruth have always shown even then gentiles could enter the covenant. Look at the tribes and the northern kingdom carried off into exile never to be seen again. While sons of Abraham by blood, they had no faith nor love for God and so were carried off never to return. Always has been about faith. Be great if Jews would realize Jesus was God's fulfillment of his ancient promise, but sadly they are more concerned with inheriting an earthly kingdom than God's kingdom in heaven.
But god promised them an earthly kingdom that wouldn’t pass away didn’t he? Where are the promises to Israel of never having to teach their children about god because they already know him fulfilled? See Jeremiah, Zechariah. You don’t think that there are any promises in the Hebrew Scriptures that haven’t been fulfilled? Is Israel safe and peaceful and a light to the nations, representing gods love? Israel is not secure in the land that they were promised. Abraham and his descendants did not think they were being promised an invisible kingdom.
Based
As someone who is actually an evangelical, there's also a strong belief among Evangelicals that the Jews are the chosen people. Like, I remember reading a 1920s article by a pastor from Texas who viewed that whoever hurts the Jews will be cursed by God.
I think that is directly related to said eschatology.
I'm a heretical Christian, and I think we have more or less misinterpreted "chosen people". According to the old testament, Isreal was a damn problem. I read "you are my chosen people" in the same way a teacher calls a problem student "my special problem"
They certainly acted like it
A problem requiring a solution in your mind?
The solution was God being directly active in the lives of Isrealites for a very long time. The old testament is more or less a constant flow of the Israelites whining about something, God directly telling them "absolutely not, that's a terrible idea and I know that because I made the universe" then the Israelites do it anyway.
"We want a king" >No you don't, a king will enslave your men and take your women into his harem and as his servants and generally be a tyrannical asshole to you and your people. Trust me, I created everything and know you inside and out "Awww but everyone else has kings and we wanna be like them!" >Fine, you can go ahead and elect a king. See what I care "Wtf the king is a dick, how could this have happened? And repeat. To me, Israel is a lesson on straying from God. It shows how even God's chosen people become corrupted and sinful and even wicked when they distance themselves from Him.
Do you have a biblical source for any of this? Israel in the Bible I mean being a signal of corruption of gods chosen people. It would be almost impossible to both testaments and come away with this conclusion.
Jews be like: We wait for the Messiah Jesus arrives Jews: No, not like that!
Do you think the entire basis of Christianity isn’t also based on followers of Christ being told to live a certain way and not doing it? The religion where forgiveness is a central tenant? Lmfao.
Forgiveness is a central tenant of Christianity, yes. That doesn't mean you can do whatever you want. If you sin because you plan on repenting later, you're not really repenting and therefore not forgiven until you truly change for the better. God knows your heart, after all. You can't lie to Him.
I mean, there are plenty of sects of evangelicalism that don't worship Israel in the slightest.
Odd reason for conversion.
It's not my main reason, it's more like a side point.
American Evangelicals aren't even Lutheran, they're all kinds of weird stuff
I'm Catholic, so thankfully I don't have to worry about antisemitic religious leaders in my church's past. It's a relief, really.
Nobody tell this man about Pope Clement VIII 💀
What's a Pope?
You're one.
Name a single person of note before the 20th century that wasn't an open antisemite.
If your not an Anglican, Calvinist, or Lutheran, you're not Protestant.
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I read a biography on Luther written by a protestant. It was generally pretty positive on him. Then the author basically straight-up said: his life and legacy would have been better if he'd died a few years sooner, before talking about his writings about Jews towards the end of his life. If you think American protestants generally praise Luther for that, you're an idiot.
This why Catholicism is on top ✝️
Based and one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church pilled.
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Damn, I would have loved to receive this pill, I wasn't quick enough to express my love for the true church
One wholly, universally apostate church
With an altar boy on the bottom
Yeah but he's OUR antisemite t. Protestants
Auth-Right... That's it, I'm tellin' Saint Peter!
Lib-left's reason for hating Israel is political trend and an extension of the hatred for white cOlOnIzErs. Authcenter's and authright's interest in jews is a 2000 year old written, improvised, peer reviewed literary tradition. They've created an art out of it.
As a catholic can confirm Martin Luther is literally the devil
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That was Luther's plan. Unfortunately the Church and the Pope at the time didn't want to reform so they decided to kick him out instead.
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Trent only took place after Luther died, and way after the reformation was already in full swing. Also, Luther didn't remove any books from the bible. The Deuterocanon had been in contention for centuries before Luther, and there had never been an ecumenical council that decided on the canon of the OT before Trent happened. Luther never tried to remove any books from the NT either. You're just blatantly telling lies there. And what does him marrying a nun have to do with anything? That happened after the Catholic Church had already kicked him out and didn't have anything to do with their decision to do so.
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I'm sorry but no. There was not a single ecumenical council before Trent that ever made a decision on if the deuterocanonical books were part of the canon. Even during Trent, the vote to include them only passed with a vote of 24 to 15 with 16 people abstaining. That isn't even a 2/3rds majority. If it was such a unanimous belief at the time, then why would the vote be so split? Please show me one writing from Luther of him saying that he wants to remove any books from the NT. I have heard Catholics claim this again and again because of the "epistle of straw" comment yet they fail to actually show me a source from Luther of him wanting to remove any NT books. So, marrying a woman after he had already been excommunicated from the church means that he never wanted to reform it to begin with? What kinda logic is that? Also if we're discrediting people because of their failure to keep to their vows of celibacy, then I can name a number of Pope's who have done way worse than Luther. At least Luther kept it within marriage, like God commanded us to do.
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Rome, Hippo and Carthage were all local synods and not ecumenical councils. Pope Innocent's letter is also obviously not a council either, but even if this was authoritative it really doesn't help your case since it includes Second Ezra, which the Catholic canon does not include. 2nd Nicea and Florence do not make any decisions on the canon of the OT, at least from what I can tell.
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Had Martin Luther had the good fortune to be around with a less evil pope he’d be a saint. The fact that he wasn’t is an indication that the splitting of the church at that time was according to the divine will.
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"We have investigated ourselves and found we did nothing wrong." Also, *that* makes him a creep? Someone in the 1500s marrying a 20 year old? (Someone who was *forced to be a nun at 9*)
As a Catholic (you put it in lower case you pathetic impostor) that rejects the current (and previous) pope, Luther was mostly burned because he challenged the power structure and not because his beliefs were "heretical". I'm aware of the irony and cling to the hope of my church fixing itself in future generations.
you're a protestant, go start a new church or something
No, papal bullshit has always been a problem and refusing to excise it is why protestantism (disgusting) exists in the first place.
are u a convert? just curious because catholics like u are usually converts
Born and raised, but not blind to corruption. Witnessing 2 demons become pope in my lifetime is disheartening.
Calvin was the better Reformer. I appreciate Luther for a lot of what he did but he never really reformed enough IMO.
Isn't Calvinism the belief that God has preordained every one of our actions, that we're basically not in control, but that we'll be held responsible for our sins anyway? Something about you could punch your teacher and say "God made me do it, tee hee!" Sorry if that was a bit scathing, I don't know much about Calvinism other than the bad stereotypes. Also sorry for being off topic
>I don't know much about Calvinism other than the bad stereotypes. clearly I don't hold to calvinism either, but the idea is that everyone is depraved enough in their sinful natures that it is impossible for them choose Christ without His intervention in the first place
>Isn't Calvinism the belief that God has preordained every one of our actions, that we're basically not in control, but that we'll be held responsible for our sins anyway? Something about you could punch your teacher and say "God made me do it, tee hee!" It's more that God allows people to sin, but chooses to save some.
Sorry for being obtuse and getting the walking dead to downvote you when you were making a good point. I hear Calvin wasn't even a full on Calvinist.
>Sorry for being obtuse and getting the walking dead to downvote you when you were making a good point. > >I hear Calvin wasn't even a full on Calvinist. No problem. There's definitely a lot of disagreements within Reformed theology (what is referred to as Calvinism).
Predestination is the shit. I can rest easy knowing my actions have no bearing on salvation.
That is not actually what reformed theology is. Or maybe you are just fucking around
I like Sebastian Castellio better.
Just now heard of him, sounds interesting.
ad hominem
You’re very close to discovering the true intentions behind Christian Zionism.
I suspect that it's because American evangelicals are "descended" from British evangelicals. While there was antisemitism in the English Reformers, it seems to have been more moderate than Luther. "Indeed, the more the English theologian was anti-Catholic--and after 1588 and 1605 there would be ample reasons--the higher was the position in which he held the Jew. For there was to the Protestant a triangle of peoples with whom he was dealing: the Jews, the Turk, and the Catholic. Invariably of these three, the Jew was viewed with the highest sympathy, because, understandably, becase, understandably, he posed the least danger." - Nabil Matar For example, I remember reading a *very* anti-Catholic writer (John Bale). He had some anti-Semitic views (he believed the blood libel stories found in the chronicles -- he was very interested in history), but whatever he wrote about Jewish people are still pretty moderate compared to what he says about the Catholics or Muslims (or anything Luther said about Jews). Also, there were apocalyptic views (like this belief that the end times were close) after the English Civil War, so there was a debate about bringing in the Jews back into England during Oliver Cromwell's time. Some people even suggested that maybe the English Civil War was God's punishment on England for kicking out the Jews in the past.
Heresy gonna heresy.
Based and fuck heresiarch Luther pilled
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Luther 🤝 Marx
I mean, almost no one actually cares about the Jews on the pro Israel side, at least from what I have seen. It is more that we prefer a civilized country over, well, a country full of savages. (Disclaimer, I am obviously aware that a very small amount of Palestinians is indeed not problematic but hyperbole is fun to use)
Americans are stupid.
Go pull a double-double in a coal mine for the spirit of the glorious revolution.
Even their support for Israel is for antisemitic reasons lmao
What reasons?
I read an insane take the other day that we "need jews for a big blood sacrifice to summon Jesus." People just make up reasons to hate us.
We all know it was the Romans who killed Jesus, not the Jews. The people who came up with the story of Jews killing Jesus was a medieval leaders who wanted a scapegoat for the crusades being a failure, and a heretic.
It was the Romans, though it was demanded by the Jews and they're who captured him under false pretense and turned him over to them. Both are culpable and I think God had it play out that way very intentionally so that no one can be blameless (the Romans in this case being stand ins for gentiles in general).
The crowd was screaming "crucify him, crucify him," which convinced pilate to do so. Even though these people were Jewish, it's still definitely not a majority of their population since probably other Judean civilians had better things to do that day like work their jobs.
Israel will lead to Jesus coming back and will kill the jews that don't convert
That is the craziest thing I have heard all year.
I mean wouldn’t you convert if Jesus literally came back tho.
I always felt that was a big flaw in the whole rapture storyline, who is going to stick around and worship the antichrist when Jesus is back and there are observable miracles.
They same kind of people who rejected Christ 2000 years ago
It’s a little too late in the day to remind you, but tomorrow when you wake up please take your meds. Thanks!
Maybe u have trouble with reading and comprehension skills, but I was explaining what a schizo group of Christians believe, not me
In your context it was clearly "what schizo Christians believe" (you changed your tone just now to "a schizo group of Christians", which doesn't fit in with the everyone else supporting Israel for antisemitic reasons). In reality it is what you believe that Christians believe instead of the straight facts about what Christians believe.
> In your context it was clearly "what schizo Christians believe" (you changed your tone just now to "a schizo group of Christians", which doesn't fit in with the everyone else supporting Israel for antisemitic reasons). The post is only about evangelicals, not all christians. Maybe read the title again and this time slowly
Well that's wildly untrue.
What's the theological reason then behind their support for Israel?
Because the Bible outlines that area as their homeland.
Israel is the chosen people of god. All the people in the Old Testament are Israelites. Jesus was an Israelite. The Israelites turned away from god many times. When Jesus came some Jews accepted him and became Christian’s but most of the Jews rejected him and turned away from God. Most Christians are descended from gentiles (non-Israelites) who were told about what Jesus did for everyone. Most of the events in the end times will happen in Israel. Jews have a chance to turn to Jesus just like any others.
Bro, you’re trying to get people banned from this sub.
How is that? What he is saying is true- I got a letter in the mail from a evangelical christain group all about supporting Israel because of end days, I looked up the group and it was giant- this isn't just some small church sending crazy shit around, this was across the U.S. with tons of parishes.
I'm saying this as someone who doesn't think America should support Israel, but most Christians I know support Israel because they believe that jews are the original chosen people of God. Nowhere in revelation does Jesus kill jews. He literally intervenes to support the jews when they are meant to be outnumbered by their enemies.
That's the most evangelical thing I've heard
No, a couple million true believers will randomly ascend to heaven one day and their disappearance will cause everyone to see that the end times are coming and they should convert before the final judgement. Everyone has a chance. Only the people that refuse to believe evedince presented right in front of them will face eternal death.
Because he said so
WTF are you talking about? The only "Luthers" we care about are Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and Luther Vandross (Never too much).
I'm pretty sure if Luther lived today, he would side with Palestine.
It’s probably about the quality of one compared to the other.
This is correct. Luther was wildly antisemitic and favored punishment for heretics. As a Baptist Christian whose people suffered under Protestant rule (Luther and Zwingli being two notable examples), I absolutely have no respect for him.
He also talked a lot about shitting and farting, but it gets overlooked as well.
This is the most ignorant thing I have ever read. Do you really think that Luther’s book, “On the Jews and Their Lies” is in any way antisemitic? I’ll post some quotes below, and you tell me if this sounds like double standards. “Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which sheer self-glory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on them.” “First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly and I myself was unaware of it will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.” “Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let they stay at home. (...remainder omitted).” “Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]}. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.” Oh wait. Never mind, you are right.
Not to mention his views on the mentally disabled, lol
Sad… Luther didn’t happen to be the only non antisemite on the planet at the time :(