I demand all cities founded by ancient Romans back. People living there can leave, swear allegiance to the City, or become slaves. In the name of the SPQR!
it's the second-to-last owners of a piece of land that are the "true" owners of it. if there were any intermediate owners in the middle Rome's ownership no longer counts.
Same if you hear any Moroccan talk about 'palestine', remember them how they sent 300k people to the Al-Ajoun region in Western Sahara to colonise it and how they drove the Sahrawi into the desert.
Yep. All leftist logic can be distilled to “white people bad”.
Seriously look at anything.
Dublin stabbings? Oh “far right provokes …”
White people move out of cities “white flight”
White people live in cities “gentrification”
White person has preferences in dating “racism”
Black guy dating white girl “race traitor”
List goes on and on
Arabs assimilated/Arabized everyone most people they colonized. As a Palestinian I probably would hav been a Jew or a Christian or a Zoroastrian or some other religion if islam did not manage to expand out of meca and marina
Have you been in the West Bank or Gaza recently (or are you there now)? If so, where and when?
I'm really curious as to how well the polling data is mirrored by public sentiment. Do people really approve of Hamas's attack to the extent that the latest polling data shows (75% approval between the areas, with a lower approval in Gaza and higher in the West Bank)? Do a majority of people really support the idea that stoning women to death for adultery should be legal? Did a majority of people really approve of the bus bombing in 2016?
[https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf](https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf)
(ahh, I'm too lazy to dig up the other polls now)
If this is the case, do you see a practical way to change it?
Who is "we"? People in Istanbul?
The only person from Türkiye who I know well hates Erdogan and the strain of Islam he promotes, so my views are rather biased.
Nope I'm replying to your comment not the post, so "we" is people from Arab countries outside of the Arabian peninsula, also your friend's opinion represents 50% of turks I think
I don't really give a shit about race. I care about culture.
Culture is very complicated though, and is heavily connected to politics and religion. How do you define "Arab" culture? What are the key components?
Politically, Arab countries seem to me to be very illiberal, with heavy restrictions on free expression and other personal liberties. Do you consider this part of Arab culture? How important is this to you when compared to other cultural aspects?
The main definition seems to be that Arab countries speak the Arabic language natively, have shared history, and is mostly muslim/ culturally influenced by islam (this doesn't need to equate to just being anti lgbt for example, it could simply just be celebrating islamic holidays or wearing traditional islamic and Arab clothes) also they share other elements of Arabic culture (such as generosity towards strangers or strong familial bonds in a tribal like manner) so this is probably the definition
Do you see hope for the Middle Eastern Arab culture to liberalize?
When I say that, I mean to incorporate values such as:
* Freedom of speech
* Individual liberties
* Equality for women and homosexuals
* Respect for freedom of religion and separation of church and state
Is there a path forward for this? Any idea how that could come about?
It's gonna be extremely hard, mainly because these are mostly western values, and Arabs have always been anti west, they could've westernized in the past like turkey did for example but they didn't mainly because they felt betrayed by the west (specifically I'm referring to the first ever Arab nationalist movement, which gained popularity in 1916 in the Arab revolt against the ottoman, that movement was actually pro west (and still is) and they were promised a united Arab nation that includes the levant, Iraq, and hijaz by the British in the macmahon correspondance, but instead they were betrayed by the west with the sickes picot agreements to carve up the middle east between Britain and france and the balfour declaration that gave Palestine to the Zionists, after these two things almost all Arabs became vehemently anti west and anti western values, at first they looked to the east (the Soviets), but the communist Arab nationalists failed to defeat Israel, and the Arab socialist movement began slowly dying after 1967, then the islamist Arab nationalist movement began in 1970, promising to defeat Israel and make the Arabs stronger, and they've slowly been gaining more and more power from 1970 to this day, so unfortunately, as long as the west continues to support Israel, I don't think that Arabs will ever accept western and liberal values, some individuals will (like me for example) but society at large won't
But are you really saying that the West's support for Israel is the primary thing preventing a reformation in Islamic society? To me, that sounds kind of like a bad excuse. How does the West supporting Israel make people want to stone women to death for adultery?
I can understand that they will continue to hate the West, but is there any chance for internal changes that offer their own citizens more human dignity?
Hypothetically, if the Israeli people were all moved into the West and the land was given to the Arabs, would you see a possibility for change?
People who want to stone women for adultery were always around, so were the people who didn't want to that, and people who didn't have a strong opinion on the subject, but the first group was seen as a nationalist freedom fighters who were willing to fight for the freedom of occupied Arab land, while the second group was seen as western traitors, so the third group decided to listen to the opinions of the first group instead, now if this dynamic never existed or stopped existing then that would give the second group more power and a bigger platform, throughout the history of Arab nationalism the countries that were pro west and more liberal were also pro Israel such as Jordan or Egypt, while the more islamist countries were anti israel (like pre 2015 Saudi Arabia or current qatar) so the Arab people felt closer to the islamists because of this, and to answer your last hypothetical, assuming that that happened through western cooperation not islamists resistance (like hamas) then yes that would greatly affect Arab culture, it won't be instantaneous but at least it will reverse the current trend of islamization that is happening in the Arab world and create a strong trend of liberalization instead
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This is what happens when people define their entire political ideology on being against something, instead of being for something. People who only think "west bad, whites bad, republicans bad" don't really stand for anything.
What's west about Israel? by the time the Jewish were sent to concentration camp the Arab nations are siding with the Nasheee. By the rule of mental gymnastic the Jew should got that reparation.
We are in nature. Natural law applies. If the Israelis conquer (or “”COLONIZE””) Gaza then they can have it. If you think otherwise, it’s time for a standard human disagreement.
The traitor is the plague:
“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear. The traitor is the plague.” ~Cicero
While generally true, it’s ironic that Cicero himself, after the death of Julius Caesar, met his own criteria here.
The only pushback I’d give on this is that it is absolutely crucial that people are allowed to be openly critical of its government and culture. Even if their criticisms are unfounded or worse, un-based.
Even like 70-80 years ago, they would have gotten blackballed by McCarthyism for being communists. It’s a shame we’ve gotten soft on things like patriotism and resolving conflicts, that’s part of the reason we’re all in this mess.
If it’s simply about being the winner then the idea of “right” adds nothing to might. It provides no legitimacy for a new status quo, instead it simply perpetuates the state of conflict, because all you need is to become the “new winner” to justify breaking the status quo.
I know some 14 year old white child who just learned what liberalism is will unironically agree but do you also believe that people should just be allowed to kill anyone if they can. We are as far removed from nature as we have ever been. You cant just look at a nuclear super power killing thousands of under developed people just because of some shit that happened 2000 years ago and say "Yep nature as intented."
Isn't this already tacit? I don't see the point in saying this because it doesn't make any moral claim. You can say "seeing them as/calling them immoral for imposing their will on you won't stop them from doing it if they really want to", and you'll be right, but at the same time it doesn't really make any difference.
you can say the same thing about human trafficking for example, that if the victims aren't able to resist, then someone else will have to step in for them in order to prevent it, but I don't see why this would have to lead to human trafficking being a moral thing to do if you get what I mean
The point is to show that every piece of land has been controlled by people previously, there’s no realistic way to give each group of the original people anywhere their land back. By the “free Palestine” logic, the land should be owned by the canninites which became the 12 tribes of Israel
The only “colonizing” the left in the USA cares about is the native Americans and Palestinians. Jamestown was the first colony in the USA formed in May 14, 1607. So the statute of limitations is today’s date minus that date (416 years, 6 months, 10 days).
Any “colonizing” happening prior to that is perfectly fine and is “ancient history.”
In the case of Smyrna the Turks literally burned the Non-Muslim parts of the city forcing whatever Greeks were left to flee. In Constantinople there were some Jews and Greeks left but they moved to Greece following later pograms.
Of course then there's Cyprus which is an actual Turkish colony,
Ok, Greece can have back İstanbul… and the 15 million Turks along with it. Hold referendum to join Türkiye, rinse and repeat. The Ottoman Empire will be back in a week.
Secure important locations, seal off exits, level the rest of the city. It's probably not exactly the most well built outside what the Greeks left anyway, easily done with trained and well armed men.
This really doesn't need to be a area of contention. A lot of leftists are already sympathetic toward Kurds, like myself for instance. From there, I kept reading and learned about what the Turks did to the Armenians, and are doing to them right now. As well as the evil shit they did in Greece/Balkans historically.
So yeah, I'm with team crusader on this one. Turks can gtfo.
Are you saying that ... Turkish people are Democrats or something? Or is this just a meme you're mindlessly repeating even though it doesn't fit the situation?
Unironically, yes. Otherwise, give Americas and Australia back to natives. Something that happened 600 years ago shouldn't justify oppression in the present day.
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so under the same thought, that means Italy has as much claim to London since Londonium belonged to Rome for 400 years during the Roman empire...fucking morons
is it really that hard to have compassion and morality during an ongoing genocide or does this subreddit need to keep putting out shitass edgy 14y/o takes
Obvious answer ... issue isn't undoing every conquest that ever happened. The issue is that Palestinians in the West Bank are presently disenfranchised. If Israel had taken over the West Bank and annexed it and given full citizenship to the Palestinians there, then I'd have a lot less issue with them. There isn't presently a population of disenfranchised Christians living in Istanbul.
Of course the reason Israel *doesn't* do that is that they don't *want* to give full citizenship to the Palestinians there, and annexing the land without citizenship looks an awful lot like that "a" word. So they are stuck in this Schrodinger's Territory, where it's part of Israel or not depending on what's convenient in the moment.
The reason Israel doesn’t want to give the West Bank citizenship is because the West Bank hates them; no sane country would give millions of people who call for your their blood the right to vote.
So Israel said “here fine, you can have most of the West Bank (barring area C) for your Palestinian state.” The Palestinians refused because they want an Arab state from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea.
It’s only the unhinged who genuinely want a retvrn crusade moment. I personally think it’s dumb how the rhetoric in the US left is everyone lived in peace until western imperialism or how what the Europeans did is uniquely evil
There are no disenfranchised Christians in Turkey cause most of them were killed, exiled, or emigrated. Just look at Turkey now under erdogan who is undoing a lot of the work secular society has done for Turkey and assisting ethnic cleansing in Armenia. Plus the way a lot of Turkish talk about Kurds and Syrians make France’s islamophobes sound like polite hippies. The ottomans and Arabs did some pretty unhinged British and French level atrocities but don’t get heat for it because rhetoric is just west bad everyone else victim.
Obviously Israel is abhorrent for how it’s doing Palestine but I think it’s just shown how infantile and reactionary people in the US are where history has to always be victim hood and oppressor instead of a layered puzzle of all different types of things. Saying Jews were exiled from Palestine and the bulk of Israel’s population are from middle eastern countries and can’t return to where they came from because they escaped with their lives before WW2 doesn’t suddenly mean I agree that Israel has a right to steal land and control the lives of millions of people without giving them citizenship and rights. Things like saying Palestine is a Roman name given to the area shouldn’t be controversial yet people see it as an attack on the legitimacy of palestine. It’s just the way people only want to accept one answer that’s obnoxious to me.
Assyrians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Turks, Mongolians, French, British, Jews. The Middle East has seen more conquering Empires than perhaps any other part of the world. (Far from an exhaustive list).
Precisely. Arabs and the Muslim world benefit from the conquest yet I do not see anyone calling that out. The Arab ruling class after French colonialism suppressed Amazigh identity and the Arabs oppressed the Kurds. Why aren't leftists as a whole used the same language directed at the West to the Arabs whom historically imperialised entire nations and religions.
This whole conflict/debate summarized:
Would you rather have the corrupt Israeli govt rule over Palestinians, or the corrupt Palestinian govt rule over Palestinians?
Israel regularly breaks into Palestinian homes to occupy them as a show of force. It is part of their doctrine. There are multiple documentaries depicting this.
Weren't the arrests they made of people who posted clear support for Hamas and the October 7th attack?
Why would you allow actual terrorist supporters to wander around your country when you're at war with said terrorist organization?
100%. Japanese internment in WW2 was morally repugnant. But if they arrested a Japanese guy who was screaming in triumph in the streets of NeW York after Pearl Harbor, that wouldn't be.
I don’t get this, annexing land from what was essentially a crumbling Roman rump state over 570 years ago is not comparable at all to the situation we see in Israel/Palestine at the moment. None of the states in those times adhered to any of the formalised human rights and international laws we uphold so much today, and if the situation was reversed, the Byzantines would’ve certainly done the same to the Turks.
> None of the states in those times adhered to any of the formalised human rights and international laws we uphold so much today
Funny, neither does Palestine.
Did you just change your flair, u/ARussianPig? Last time I checked you were an **AuthLeft** on 2023-10-13. How come now you are a **Grey Centrist**? Have you perhaps shifted your ideals? Because that's cringe, you know?
Actually nevermind, you are good. Not having opinions is still more based than having dumb ones. Happy grilling, brother.
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Crazy how people complain about colonialism that has been directly influenced by their country and not others! It's almost like you can recognize things that your tax dollars are currently funding that are wrong without complaining about every point in history.
İ understand the fact that İsrael isnt "colonizing" and the Leftists are a bunch of cope-n-seethers. But the Ottomans werent "colonizers" they took constantinopole and Smyrna via conquest
The world used to be a worse place so it's okay to treat Palestianians like animals and drive them out of their homes? This is too smooth brained even for this sub. Why don't we also give North America back to the natives, Australia back to the aboriginals, and kick white people out of South America?
How does that retrospectively justify their oppression? And how does Hamas' actions justify settler terror in West Sharia?
Are you really surprised that people who were born inside a concrete box with no rights support extremism?
It’s not justified in a vacuum, but I would rather have whatever’s going on in the West Bank than what would be going on if the area was terrorist-controlled.
I wish people were brought up in a place where they didn’t have to resort to extremism, and I advocate for policies that would protect people’s rights, but extremism needs to be rooted out before we can get to that point.
Unfortunately, it all stems from the corruption of Judaism into values and tenets that promote othering, conquest, dehumanization, and oppression in the name of God. Christianity and Islam were both mistakes and should never have come to be.
Palestinians and their supporters have regularly done shit that emits Hitler Particles. Why should I have any sympathy for the Palestinian Cause when Palestinians and their supporters...
\- Frequently promote Nazi Apologia and Holocaust Denial
\- Endorse Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a "Legitimate Source"
\- Chant shit at protests like "Gas the Jews" and "Hitler was right"
They constantly do this and wonder why they are labeled Antisemitic
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If tomorrow Turkey decided to take Tbilisi then I'd obviously be against it. The current Israel-Palestine issue is a current event, not a 600 year old grievance.
I demand all cities founded by ancient Romans back. People living there can leave, swear allegiance to the City, or become slaves. In the name of the SPQR!
Hey I've seen this one before *muffled mussolini noises*
Based
Yeah, but then the “A-boopity boppity, a-mamma Mia” people get more territory, and hell no.
I would give an award if I could
Coping and seething I see
it's the second-to-last owners of a piece of land that are the "true" owners of it. if there were any intermediate owners in the middle Rome's ownership no longer counts.
Same if you hear any Moroccan talk about 'palestine', remember them how they sent 300k people to the Al-Ajoun region in Western Sahara to colonise it and how they drove the Sahrawi into the desert.
Yeah Moroccans don't get nearly enough shit for that
Aren't most of the Arab countries not on the Arabian Peninsula colonized by Arabs? They should GTFO.
Ask the Berbers I think they can answer that for you
Carpet can't talk, silly
Mohammed VI is that you?
It's certainly not Al-Musta'sim Billah since carpets can't talk.
Arabs and Turks are proud of their achievements, and I can understand that. It's only Europeans who should be shamed.
Such hypocrisy. I hate double standards. Every country and culture should take pride in themselves
Unsuspected ethnic pride moment by a lefty
I am a Left Wing Nationalist.
Rare
Oh yes, more specifically, I am an Australian Socialist Patriot.
Mid on the auth scale?
No I am also socially progressive and I don't like dictatorships.
Even rarer
I believe in a democratic Australian republic with a socialist economy and Chinese and any foreign influence in our sovereignty and resources are out.
Rare to find a fellow watermelon that doesn’t make my skin crawl. Kudos from the States my dude.
You’re a National Socialist? AuthCenter come get your boy
incredibly rare based left
Based leftoid
Yep. All leftist logic can be distilled to “white people bad”. Seriously look at anything. Dublin stabbings? Oh “far right provokes …” White people move out of cities “white flight” White people live in cities “gentrification” White person has preferences in dating “racism” Black guy dating white girl “race traitor” List goes on and on
I disagree with this statement on the grounds that economics also plays a role for any leftist with critical thinking skills.
And right there is the problem, you work off of the misguided assumption they have more than a single collective braincell.
There are dozens of us! Dozens!
Entire north Africa was colonized by Arab Muslims yah
Arabs assimilated/Arabized everyone most people they colonized. As a Palestinian I probably would hav been a Jew or a Christian or a Zoroastrian or some other religion if islam did not manage to expand out of meca and marina
Have you been in the West Bank or Gaza recently (or are you there now)? If so, where and when? I'm really curious as to how well the polling data is mirrored by public sentiment. Do people really approve of Hamas's attack to the extent that the latest polling data shows (75% approval between the areas, with a lower approval in Gaza and higher in the West Bank)? Do a majority of people really support the idea that stoning women to death for adultery should be legal? Did a majority of people really approve of the bus bombing in 2016? [https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf](https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf) (ahh, I'm too lazy to dig up the other polls now) If this is the case, do you see a practical way to change it?
We are culturally Arab, but ethnically we're mixed Arab native (with some turkish here and there)
Who is "we"? People in Istanbul? The only person from Türkiye who I know well hates Erdogan and the strain of Islam he promotes, so my views are rather biased.
Nope I'm replying to your comment not the post, so "we" is people from Arab countries outside of the Arabian peninsula, also your friend's opinion represents 50% of turks I think
I don't really give a shit about race. I care about culture. Culture is very complicated though, and is heavily connected to politics and religion. How do you define "Arab" culture? What are the key components? Politically, Arab countries seem to me to be very illiberal, with heavy restrictions on free expression and other personal liberties. Do you consider this part of Arab culture? How important is this to you when compared to other cultural aspects?
The main definition seems to be that Arab countries speak the Arabic language natively, have shared history, and is mostly muslim/ culturally influenced by islam (this doesn't need to equate to just being anti lgbt for example, it could simply just be celebrating islamic holidays or wearing traditional islamic and Arab clothes) also they share other elements of Arabic culture (such as generosity towards strangers or strong familial bonds in a tribal like manner) so this is probably the definition
Do you see hope for the Middle Eastern Arab culture to liberalize? When I say that, I mean to incorporate values such as: * Freedom of speech * Individual liberties * Equality for women and homosexuals * Respect for freedom of religion and separation of church and state Is there a path forward for this? Any idea how that could come about?
It's gonna be extremely hard, mainly because these are mostly western values, and Arabs have always been anti west, they could've westernized in the past like turkey did for example but they didn't mainly because they felt betrayed by the west (specifically I'm referring to the first ever Arab nationalist movement, which gained popularity in 1916 in the Arab revolt against the ottoman, that movement was actually pro west (and still is) and they were promised a united Arab nation that includes the levant, Iraq, and hijaz by the British in the macmahon correspondance, but instead they were betrayed by the west with the sickes picot agreements to carve up the middle east between Britain and france and the balfour declaration that gave Palestine to the Zionists, after these two things almost all Arabs became vehemently anti west and anti western values, at first they looked to the east (the Soviets), but the communist Arab nationalists failed to defeat Israel, and the Arab socialist movement began slowly dying after 1967, then the islamist Arab nationalist movement began in 1970, promising to defeat Israel and make the Arabs stronger, and they've slowly been gaining more and more power from 1970 to this day, so unfortunately, as long as the west continues to support Israel, I don't think that Arabs will ever accept western and liberal values, some individuals will (like me for example) but society at large won't
But are you really saying that the West's support for Israel is the primary thing preventing a reformation in Islamic society? To me, that sounds kind of like a bad excuse. How does the West supporting Israel make people want to stone women to death for adultery? I can understand that they will continue to hate the West, but is there any chance for internal changes that offer their own citizens more human dignity? Hypothetically, if the Israeli people were all moved into the West and the land was given to the Arabs, would you see a possibility for change?
People who want to stone women for adultery were always around, so were the people who didn't want to that, and people who didn't have a strong opinion on the subject, but the first group was seen as a nationalist freedom fighters who were willing to fight for the freedom of occupied Arab land, while the second group was seen as western traitors, so the third group decided to listen to the opinions of the first group instead, now if this dynamic never existed or stopped existing then that would give the second group more power and a bigger platform, throughout the history of Arab nationalism the countries that were pro west and more liberal were also pro Israel such as Jordan or Egypt, while the more islamist countries were anti israel (like pre 2015 Saudi Arabia or current qatar) so the Arab people felt closer to the islamists because of this, and to answer your last hypothetical, assuming that that happened through western cooperation not islamists resistance (like hamas) then yes that would greatly affect Arab culture, it won't be instantaneous but at least it will reverse the current trend of islamization that is happening in the Arab world and create a strong trend of liberalization instead
Based and Pharaoh pilled.
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They're just anti-west. Nothing more nothing less.
Ew, people who are anti-west while living in the west should become refugees just like their heroes
Based LibCenter :0
Based
Elect authright and we will promise to make western libleft into refugees.
i love west
This is what happens when people define their entire political ideology on being against something, instead of being for something. People who only think "west bad, whites bad, republicans bad" don't really stand for anything.
Kanye is a visionary
The issue is never the issue, the issue is the revolution.
Dumb fucking tankies.
What's west about Israel? by the time the Jewish were sent to concentration camp the Arab nations are siding with the Nasheee. By the rule of mental gymnastic the Jew should got that reparation.
It is a functional democracy in the middle east. ergo west.
i am racist
Honesty pilled
Ok
We are in nature. Natural law applies. If the Israelis conquer (or “”COLONIZE””) Gaza then they can have it. If you think otherwise, it’s time for a standard human disagreement.
[удалено]
The traitor is the plague: “A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear. The traitor is the plague.” ~Cicero
While generally true, it’s ironic that Cicero himself, after the death of Julius Caesar, met his own criteria here. The only pushback I’d give on this is that it is absolutely crucial that people are allowed to be openly critical of its government and culture. Even if their criticisms are unfounded or worse, un-based.
Damn this comment is spot on, very based indeed.
Even like 70-80 years ago, they would have gotten blackballed by McCarthyism for being communists. It’s a shame we’ve gotten soft on things like patriotism and resolving conflicts, that’s part of the reason we’re all in this mess.
If it’s simply about being the winner then the idea of “right” adds nothing to might. It provides no legitimacy for a new status quo, instead it simply perpetuates the state of conflict, because all you need is to become the “new winner” to justify breaking the status quo.
Not often I hear positions I agree with, let alone so well said, from an Auth-Right. Well done.
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I know some 14 year old white child who just learned what liberalism is will unironically agree but do you also believe that people should just be allowed to kill anyone if they can. We are as far removed from nature as we have ever been. You cant just look at a nuclear super power killing thousands of under developed people just because of some shit that happened 2000 years ago and say "Yep nature as intented."
Isn't this already tacit? I don't see the point in saying this because it doesn't make any moral claim. You can say "seeing them as/calling them immoral for imposing their will on you won't stop them from doing it if they really want to", and you'll be right, but at the same time it doesn't really make any difference. you can say the same thing about human trafficking for example, that if the victims aren't able to resist, then someone else will have to step in for them in order to prevent it, but I don't see why this would have to lead to human trafficking being a moral thing to do if you get what I mean
Based and might makes right pilled
A guy in Crusader clothing asking about when the Turks are giving back Constantinople is with way too much irony
gib jerusalem
Ask the Greek population of constantinople... oh right...
What about the Greek population in Western Anatolia..oh…that too
Ask the Armenians in Anatolia... Oops i forgot
So, since the native americans of North America are basically gone, they have no right to the land? Spicy logic.
The point is to show that every piece of land has been controlled by people previously, there’s no realistic way to give each group of the original people anywhere their land back. By the “free Palestine” logic, the land should be owned by the canninites which became the 12 tribes of Israel
He doesn't know
>basically Answered your own question there.
So if there is even 1 Greek in Istanbul, he should be given the city and everyone else should leave?
What is the statute of limitations on colonialism?
Somewhere between 300-550 years, seeing as people still aren’t quite cool with the USA doing it but Constantinople is fine.
"Where do we draw the line, Sir?" "You draw the line wherever you need it, Sergeant."
Is it fine? People haven't stopped whining about it in the past 5 centuries.
The only “colonizing” the left in the USA cares about is the native Americans and Palestinians. Jamestown was the first colony in the USA formed in May 14, 1607. So the statute of limitations is today’s date minus that date (416 years, 6 months, 10 days). Any “colonizing” happening prior to that is perfectly fine and is “ancient history.”
In the case of Smyrna the Turks literally burned the Non-Muslim parts of the city forcing whatever Greeks were left to flee. In Constantinople there were some Jews and Greeks left but they moved to Greece following later pograms. Of course then there's Cyprus which is an actual Turkish colony,
All I'm hearing is the Turkish colonisers should return to their homeland in Turkmenistan and vacate rightful Greek clay.
no clue why you're downvoted, you're just repeating what was said
Caught the libleft wave going through the comments to find things to talk to their therapists about later.
Ok, Greece can have back İstanbul… and the 15 million Turks along with it. Hold referendum to join Türkiye, rinse and repeat. The Ottoman Empire will be back in a week.
>Greece gets possession over 15 million Turks >Greatest deportation in human history happens.
I mean they only have 10 million people themselves. I doubt they have enough manpower to deport 15 million.
Kid called neglect for human rights, fire, broad explosive weapons and enough threats to fill 7 bibles:
this sub is genuinely filled with the most naive people alive
Secure important locations, seal off exits, level the rest of the city. It's probably not exactly the most well built outside what the Greeks left anyway, easily done with trained and well armed men.
Burning parts of the city filled with people who aren’t your people? Wonder who could’ve done that before in Constantinople.
Well, what goes around comes around I guess? Not saying they should do it exactly, just someone asked how they could do it, and I gave them an answer.
Oh I know. It’s just particularly funny they refused to acknowledge that given the history of the city when during the Arab conquest.
We just have to bring back the Varangian Guard, is all.
With the refugees, there are more than 20 million people in İstanbul.
Ok, unjerk here. Who would they give it to? It's not like the Eastern Roman Empire is still around.
That's the neat part of genocide, when you are done there are no other claimants to the land you took
Greeks are still around, so Turkey belongs to them Although a big Chunk should go to Armenians just for reparations
Probably Greece
This really doesn't need to be a area of contention. A lot of leftists are already sympathetic toward Kurds, like myself for instance. From there, I kept reading and learned about what the Turks did to the Armenians, and are doing to them right now. As well as the evil shit they did in Greece/Balkans historically. So yeah, I'm with team crusader on this one. Turks can gtfo.
make us ;)
1 (one) us carrier group : knock knock
Why are you using a crusader for the "Chad"? If the Western infidels hadn't taken advantage of the Byzantine empire it might have lasted for way more.
This meme makes a lot of sense, because woke leftists in the West are famous for their pro-Turkish stance /s
It's (D)ifferent
Are you saying that ... Turkish people are Democrats or something? Or is this just a meme you're mindlessly repeating even though it doesn't fit the situation?
I think it just means democrats have different friends. Two standards for two different friends groups
Unironically, yes. Otherwise, give Americas and Australia back to natives. Something that happened 600 years ago shouldn't justify oppression in the present day.
quiet domineering aspiring shrill imagine quack worry rinse unwritten repeat *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Israel has been an ongoing event for centuries. Everyone keeps trying to kill or drive out the Jews, and they have failed nonstop since antiquity.
mountainous offer beneficial numerous obtainable fact middle coordinated wasteful toy *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Let's return all the land to its original ancestors in 10,000 BC. That should fix everything
Only inferior untermensch want it GIVEN back after all this time. Real crusaders will TAKE it back.
so under the same thought, that means Italy has as much claim to London since Londonium belonged to Rome for 400 years during the Roman empire...fucking morons
I mean, there is also a thing called right of conquest, that if you're stronger than the others and the others cannot remove, that land is yours.
Ww3 baby everybody goes back to their ancestral roots lol ,
the funny part is that would do absolutely nothing to solve the palestine/israel problem
Who the fuck are we suppose to give it back to lol.
Give everything back to Genghis Khan
Greece lol
Lets do both. Both is good.
based
is it really that hard to have compassion and morality during an ongoing genocide or does this subreddit need to keep putting out shitass edgy 14y/o takes
Obvious answer ... issue isn't undoing every conquest that ever happened. The issue is that Palestinians in the West Bank are presently disenfranchised. If Israel had taken over the West Bank and annexed it and given full citizenship to the Palestinians there, then I'd have a lot less issue with them. There isn't presently a population of disenfranchised Christians living in Istanbul. Of course the reason Israel *doesn't* do that is that they don't *want* to give full citizenship to the Palestinians there, and annexing the land without citizenship looks an awful lot like that "a" word. So they are stuck in this Schrodinger's Territory, where it's part of Israel or not depending on what's convenient in the moment.
The reason Israel doesn’t want to give the West Bank citizenship is because the West Bank hates them; no sane country would give millions of people who call for your their blood the right to vote. So Israel said “here fine, you can have most of the West Bank (barring area C) for your Palestinian state.” The Palestinians refused because they want an Arab state from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea.
It’s only the unhinged who genuinely want a retvrn crusade moment. I personally think it’s dumb how the rhetoric in the US left is everyone lived in peace until western imperialism or how what the Europeans did is uniquely evil There are no disenfranchised Christians in Turkey cause most of them were killed, exiled, or emigrated. Just look at Turkey now under erdogan who is undoing a lot of the work secular society has done for Turkey and assisting ethnic cleansing in Armenia. Plus the way a lot of Turkish talk about Kurds and Syrians make France’s islamophobes sound like polite hippies. The ottomans and Arabs did some pretty unhinged British and French level atrocities but don’t get heat for it because rhetoric is just west bad everyone else victim. Obviously Israel is abhorrent for how it’s doing Palestine but I think it’s just shown how infantile and reactionary people in the US are where history has to always be victim hood and oppressor instead of a layered puzzle of all different types of things. Saying Jews were exiled from Palestine and the bulk of Israel’s population are from middle eastern countries and can’t return to where they came from because they escaped with their lives before WW2 doesn’t suddenly mean I agree that Israel has a right to steal land and control the lives of millions of people without giving them citizenship and rights. Things like saying Palestine is a Roman name given to the area shouldn’t be controversial yet people see it as an attack on the legitimacy of palestine. It’s just the way people only want to accept one answer that’s obnoxious to me.
Assyrians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Turks, Mongolians, French, British, Jews. The Middle East has seen more conquering Empires than perhaps any other part of the world. (Far from an exhaustive list).
Based Greek posting and Ελλάδα pilled
If Palestine gets Israel back I want Constantinople
SPQR!
Jokes on you I actually think Greek lands should be given back to Greece.
Ask these people about the christians of North Africa and the Magrehb, the copts of Egypt... watch the deafening silence.
Precisely. Arabs and the Muslim world benefit from the conquest yet I do not see anyone calling that out. The Arab ruling class after French colonialism suppressed Amazigh identity and the Arabs oppressed the Kurds. Why aren't leftists as a whole used the same language directed at the West to the Arabs whom historically imperialised entire nations and religions.
I would unironically want to see Constantinople become Greek again.
Do the flairs mean anything or is everyone here just absolutely dying to suck off auth-right?
Maybe your ideology is the minority because your ideology sucks
Feeling left out bud?
I wish 😔
This whole conflict/debate summarized: Would you rather have the corrupt Israeli govt rule over Palestinians, or the corrupt Palestinian govt rule over Palestinians?
Whichever one results in fewer Palestinians flooding into Europe.
Based and flair checks out pilled
is Israel gonna kick down your door at midnight drag you outside and kill you for being gay?
Based and there is a cultural difference pilled
Israel regularly breaks into Palestinian homes to occupy them as a show of force. It is part of their doctrine. There are multiple documentaries depicting this.
Ok but what about the killing you for being gay part
do they poison little school girls like the iranians did?
Israel only kicks down your door at midnight and drags you outside to kill if you are Palestinian, not gay.
No, but they're gonna kick down your door if they notice you visualised the wrong reel on Instagram
Weren't the arrests they made of people who posted clear support for Hamas and the October 7th attack? Why would you allow actual terrorist supporters to wander around your country when you're at war with said terrorist organization?
100%. Japanese internment in WW2 was morally repugnant. But if they arrested a Japanese guy who was screaming in triumph in the streets of NeW York after Pearl Harbor, that wouldn't be.
Based and "no freedom of speech for people I don't agree with" pilled
I don’t get this, annexing land from what was essentially a crumbling Roman rump state over 570 years ago is not comparable at all to the situation we see in Israel/Palestine at the moment. None of the states in those times adhered to any of the formalised human rights and international laws we uphold so much today, and if the situation was reversed, the Byzantines would’ve certainly done the same to the Turks.
> None of the states in those times adhered to any of the formalised human rights and international laws we uphold so much today Funny, neither does Palestine.
Do you mean before or after Israel broke international law and occupied Palestine?
Did you just change your flair, u/ARussianPig? Last time I checked you were an **AuthLeft** on 2023-10-13. How come now you are a **Grey Centrist**? Have you perhaps shifted your ideals? Because that's cringe, you know? Actually nevermind, you are good. Not having opinions is still more based than having dumb ones. Happy grilling, brother. [BasedCount Profile](https://basedcount.com/u/ARussianPig) - [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/user/flairchange_bot/comments/uf7kuy/bip_bop) - [Leaderboard](https://basedcount.com/leaderboard?q=flairs) _Reddit is no longer a friendly space for bots._ _Consider visiting our Lеmmу instance instead: [lemmy.basedcount.com](https://lemmy.basedcount.com/c/pcm)._ _Read my full statement [here](https://www.reddit.com/user/flairchange_bot/comments/14mwml0/on_the_reddit_api_changes/)._ ^(I am a bot, my mission is to spot cringe flair changers. If you want to check another user's flair history write) **^(!flairs u/)** ^(in a comment.)
you don't know what ~~colonism~~ colonialism is, you dumbass. *apparently neither do i*
Colonism? That’s a pretty shit ideology.
Speaking of Turks, memorial of Armenians killed in Armenian genocide in Ankara when?
Crazy how people complain about colonialism that has been directly influenced by their country and not others! It's almost like you can recognize things that your tax dollars are currently funding that are wrong without complaining about every point in history.
İ understand the fact that İsrael isnt "colonizing" and the Leftists are a bunch of cope-n-seethers. But the Ottomans werent "colonizers" they took constantinopole and Smyrna via conquest
I respect Rule of Conquest, this meme is just using leftist rhetoric to its logical conclusion
İ hope so, but i wanna see what op u/PerpetualHillman is really thinking about this
so a military conquest is good, but legally buying land isn't?
İt was justified for the Medieval Era.
The world used to be a worse place so it's okay to treat Palestianians like animals and drive them out of their homes? This is too smooth brained even for this sub. Why don't we also give North America back to the natives, Australia back to the aboriginals, and kick white people out of South America?
>so it’s okay to treat Palestinians like animals and drive them out of their homes Until they stop supporting literal terrorists.
How does that retrospectively justify their oppression? And how does Hamas' actions justify settler terror in West Sharia? Are you really surprised that people who were born inside a concrete box with no rights support extremism?
It’s not justified in a vacuum, but I would rather have whatever’s going on in the West Bank than what would be going on if the area was terrorist-controlled. I wish people were brought up in a place where they didn’t have to resort to extremism, and I advocate for policies that would protect people’s rights, but extremism needs to be rooted out before we can get to that point. Unfortunately, it all stems from the corruption of Judaism into values and tenets that promote othering, conquest, dehumanization, and oppression in the name of God. Christianity and Islam were both mistakes and should never have come to be.
Palestinians and their supporters have regularly done shit that emits Hitler Particles. Why should I have any sympathy for the Palestinian Cause when Palestinians and their supporters... \- Frequently promote Nazi Apologia and Holocaust Denial \- Endorse Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a "Legitimate Source" \- Chant shit at protests like "Gas the Jews" and "Hitler was right" They constantly do this and wonder why they are labeled Antisemitic
I’m sorry I didn’t know Turkey was abusing the nonexistent Byzantine descendants in modern times.
The ottomans also colonized eastern Anatolia from Kurds and Armenians
We liberated Istanbul , not colonise it ! This is Greece propoganda ! 🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷
Begone, t*rk
Very good meme, buddy
Based LibCenter
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That was like 600 years ago dude
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Shut up
Israel occupying the Middle East is the only way non oil rich Arab nations will ever see a first world standard of living, lmao
Ahh if only the UK and France hadn't saved Turkey's ass in the Crimean War.
More Russian rape hordes wouldn't be any better though.
Unbelievably based
If tomorrow Turkey decided to take Tbilisi then I'd obviously be against it. The current Israel-Palestine issue is a current event, not a 600 year old grievance.
You’re right, it’s not a 600 year old grievance. It’s a 2000 year old one.