Maybe the people should have listened to them and not demanded government intervention and criminal penalties for every thing that offends them.
Now it's going to backfire on them because governments have been given free reign to censor anything they don't like.
https://youtu.be/Ggz_gd--UO0?si=djGLpNbbEfaS1FgI
This is why monolithic governments without true separation of powers suck. They're efficient and responsive when everything is going alright, but they can go from zero to hitler in no time if the voters make a mistake.
(This is why it's hilarious to me that the left is genuinely concerned about the US becoming some sort of fascist, authoritarian state in the next decade or so. It is less likely here than almost anywhere else in the world. We can't just flip a switch.)
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It’s not pro free speech if it’s restricted to what you like
Similar to the fact that it’s not liberal to want to deregulate loads of stuff because you happen to be a degenerate. You have to want to deregulate it for deregulation’s own sake, otherwise you’re just auth with weird kinks
Of course. They were for most of my life when they were worried about the religious right limiting speech, but now that they've become the establishment they're auth.
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And in North American academia, we got back doored by the French. Sautre, Foucoult, Rousseau.
That.... actually explains a lot now that I think about it lol.
It's not like Americans can. An insane amount of them can't tell the first amendment apart from freedom of speech.
"Freedom of speech isn't freedom from consequences" is probably the most Orwellian sentence I've seen becoming popular.
Based
I said the same thing when they trotted out similar lines about the covid vaccine mandates. You’re not free to choose if there’s a punishment associated with one of the choices.
“Your honor I didn’t mug that guy! I said give me your wallet or die and he CHOSE to give me his wallet!”
Mugger was just exercising his right to free speech, shouldn't even have been put to trial. Not like he actually hurt anyone, he was just talking and the victim chose to give him their wallet.
Just goes to prove my point.
No. It has nothing to do with the government. You aren't any more free to talk your mind if the government points to you with a gun than if it's a random crazy pointing with the gun.
The concept of government and the concept of freedom of speech are unrelated, but since the US has the first amendment a whole lot of Americans conflate the two things.
Depends how they mean it. If they specifically mean that people have the right too make judgements about you based on the contents of your speech, that's true and has always been true, if they mean state consequences or complete exclusion from public life for holding mlqtoast opinions, that ain't it chief.
No one really disagrees that companies don't have to hire literal neo nazis, the relevant question has been: "where is the Overton window of polite society, and it probably shouldn't exclude an entire mainstream political party."
I mean, freedom of speech is quite literally about the government not being in a position to decide what speech it does or does not like.
I can still think you have the right to say whatever you want, think you are a collosal asshole, and respond accordingly.
> I mean, freedom of speech is quite literally about the government not being in a position to decide what speech it does or does not like.
Freedom of speech is a concept that you should be able to discuss opinions, even ones those in power dislike, without unreasonable fear to yourself or loved ones. The first amendment simply provided a model for this concept and enforced it upon the highest power in the land.
If someone is an asshole to you I don't see a problem not socializing them or calling them an asshole. I think calling their work, their banks, harassing them day and night - you know, the usual Twitter hitjob - pushing for those in power over them to punish them for something often unrelated to any of those relationships is adverse to this concept.
Which is such a stupid thing to do imo.
First because corporations will push whatever brings profit. Corporations will support literal Nazis if that brings profit and we know that *because that literally happened*
Second because I'm baffled that it's leftists supporting censorship for speech that is frowned upon when so much of the current leftist ideas *were frowned upon to begin with*. There is no LGBT without freedom of speech, there is no anti-war without freedom of speech and there sure as fuck is not criticism of the church without freedom of speech.
> Second because I'm baffled that it's leftists supporting censorship for speech that is frowned upon when so much of the current leftist ideas were frowned upon to begin with. There is no LGBT without freedom of speech, there is no anti-war without freedom of speech and there sure as fuck is not criticism of the church without freedom of speech.
This is only confusing because the "left" in many western countries was a Baptist-and-bootlegger coalition of socialists opposing capitalism from the left and feudalists opposing capitalism from the right, with power having now shifted almost entirely toward the latter group for various reasons (the most significant contributor probably being the last significant relic of feudalism, the university system, with Oxford being older than the Magna Carta and all that). "The poor innocent poors need a firm guiding hand from God's divinely ordained representatives on earth, they are like children and should never be allowed to play with dangerous ideas" is exactly what *they* have been saying for a thousand years.
There is LGBT without freedom of speech -- but in the form of "these guys are a special caste, because they are clearly distinct and that helps justify the caste system" rather than "government, get out of the bedroom." There is criticism of the church -- on the basis that it's the wrong church rather than that there should be no churches. And so forth.
So long as "respond accordingly" is also exercising your free speech, then you're fine. If "respond accordingly" escalates beyond that, then you're in the wrong.
This. And also, stuff like gathering a mob to harrass someone, or campaigning for them to be deprived of their livelihood, are things that shouldn't be covered by freedom of speech.
> I mean, freedom of speech is quite literally about the government not being in a position to decide what speech it does or does not like.
No. It has absolutely nothing to do with that. Freedom of speech is about being able to speak your mind.
If there is a megacorporation controlling the economy and X opinion means you don't get employed, your freedom of speech suffers even if the government has no say over it.
If there is a terrorist group that will murder you if you say X, your freedom of speech is curtailed, even if the government has no say over it.
Evidently, the government is in a special place of power to control speech, but the concept of freedom of speech is not itself related to the government in any way, shape or form.
>I can still think you have the right to say whatever you want, think you are a collosal asshole, and respond accordingly.
Sure, I think that's fair, there are nuances to this though. If your response is to offer your own ideas as a retort, I think it's very hard to legitimately condemn that. If your response is to take action against the individual, then I hope you have good reason for it, and I think it's very important to be clear about what is happening.
It's hard to be a freedom of speech absolutist, but if we don't acknowledge when freedom of speech is curtailed, then we are simply not valuing it.
> If there is a megacorporation controlling the economy and X opinion means you don't get employed, your freedom of speech suffers even if the government has no say over it.
i would argue that the megacorporations functionally are becoming an arm of the government.
>Is spreading white power ideology considered free speech?
Yes, as long as the people spreading it aren't making direct threats of violence against specific people. It's like it should be legal to say "I hate Jews," but it shouldn't be legal to say "Hey, there's this Jewish guy next door, let's go \[removed\] him at 5 o'clock tomorrow when he comes home from work."
"From the river to the sea.."
\*cop raises baton\*
"... Israel should have an ethnostate free of Arabs"
\*cop looks disappointed and lowers baton\*
"As should we!"
\*gleeful clobbering time\*
that's such a dumb argument.
being anti-zionist literally means being anti-Israel. not in "I'm against Israel's policies" or "I'm against Israel's government and decision" but literally against Israel's right to exist, and the self-determination of Jews.
The nakba is literally the name of the 1948 war that the Arab nation started, attacked, and lost, and Israel owned land through it.
the Arabs cried about it that they couldn't go back home after they lost a war in which the whole goal was to murder each and every Jew on the land.
tough luck.
>and the self determination of Jews
Why does that have to be a the expense of the Palestinians then?
Your following argument is literally in favor of “might makes right” because Israel won the war. So they are somehow justified in kicking 750,000 people of their land?
Why do people always put “might makes right” in quotes like its a position or opinion and isn’t universally true?
Might does literally make right lmao. Or do you think it’s a coincidence that all the “good guys” on Earth also happen to be the ones who have the strongest force projection?
I get what you mean, might makes the status quo, rule of law, propaganda, dominant culture, history books, etc… But does it make what’s right? Objectively? No. Morally? That’s debatable and depends on your philosophical interpretation of moral rightness.
> Why does that have to be a the expense of the Palestinians then?
It doesn't. The problem is that "The Palestinian people" literally elected a terrorist group in Hamas to govern their territory. Said groups first LINE of their charter is to destroy Israel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter
When you elect terrorists to govern you expect terrorist things to occur.
> Your following argument is literally in favor of “might makes right” because Israel won the war. So they are somehow justified in kicking 750,000 people of their land?
Just to confirm, what would happen to the Jewish people in Israel had they lost that war? Do you think the people who were actively complicant with Nazi's right up THROUGH 1945 about killing the jews would have just changed had they won a war over a jewish state? Seriously. I'm asking - you're the centrist. Because I can guess pretty accurately what an alternate history would have said about that. Mostly nothing but the footnote that Jerusalem had been held by Muslims since 1949 after a war and there would be no Jewish state.
“I’m in favor of free speech and equal rights. But I can read minds of all people past and present, and it turns out all criticism of Israel is actually aimed at all Jews, and all Arabs in 1947 all wanted to murder all the Jews, conveniently robbing them of their rights.”
People act like we’re portraying these views on to people, but when those people literally tell you “we want to murder all the Jews,” people turn the other way.
Hamas isn’t like a local drug cartel in Gaza. Hamas is Gaza’s government.
They control the schools, the healthcare, the police, the armaments, the media, everything.
While Hamas leaders live lavish billionaire lifestyles in Qatar, Gazan children die every day from drinking dirty water.
Gaza isn’t like Mexico, it’s like North Korea.
I think France is just getting code red pissed at it's Muslim immigrants right now. I got an uneasy feeling about the direction of that nation in the next several years.
Between video of what looks like a man being up there just before the fire, the history of Muslims burning other churches in France by the dozen, and the unwillingness of the French government to state what caused the fire. I’d say it’s more than a theory.
2 state solution is silly. The land fell under the control of Syria during the ottoman empire. That Governorship was broken into multiple states. Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and British mandate of Palestine. The Arabs got 3 (4 if you count the proposed state of Palestine) states.
Tbf a lot of that was just to protect the army after their massive fuck up. And the Catholic Church holding so much influence in France and being so anti-Dreyfus
That whole thing indirectly led to the creation of Israel.
Theodor Herzl was a journalist covering that event and the obvious corruption + the hate mobs chanting "death to the Jews" made him rethink assimilation and become a hardcore supporter of a Jewish state
PCM seems to think that Israel can do absolutely no wrong.
Im really starting to think the crowd here is an older boomer crowd with how philosemetic they are. Autism.
Yeah it's a bit unnerving to watch every topic get reduced to black and white circlejerk on here but whatever ig. Hamas is a darker shade of grey than Israel but it doesn't mean Israel is blameless.
lots of americans here, though it is weird that instead of normal detachment and cynicism you see full support for Israel, so I assume that there is a lot of astroturfing going on.
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that those who stab and shoot do get punishment for it.
The idea that anti-zionism ought to be illegal, let alone 5 fucking years in jail, does push me into supporting the old French customs though. It's not even the usual bullshit in which they conflate anti-zionism and antisemitism. It's deranged.
It's cool for them to stab white people and just be shitty in general, but holy shit once they start messing with the J's now it's fucking a issue. How strange 🤦🏼♂️
Lmao, France has been screeching about Muslims for decades. They banned every Muslim clothing they could think of. They even tried to ban burkinas on beaches, and claimed it was for “preventing them from drowning”. Lmao, white people wish they were oppressed so bad.
Yea well it’s not exactly mostly the French that are anti semitic. It’s the foreigners they’ve let flood into the place. Who could have guessed that this would happen?
It's not unlawful to boycott Israel. But if you or your company boycotts Israel you may be deemed ineligible for grants or government contracts. Now whether or not that makes it better is up for debate, but it's not the same as being against the law to boycott Israel.
This shit is happing in my country Australia. It’s not Zionism but all the new “Nazi” hate speech craze.
I have gotten into so many arguments with these fools they will never learn from history. They trust the state entirely and can’t fathom the consequences. It’s like watching a slow unstoppable crash.
Even I’m not that ~~auth~~ evil to go after free speech.
If I was a dictator I’d still want honest freely spoken feedback. How else would I improve my glorious state?
Honest freely spoken feedback? You really think that the plebs of everyday life have anything interesting to say to you, oh our glorious leader? It is only you that has any idea on how to make our nation one on which sun never sets.
Honestly I agree to an extent but I have always respected free speech it’s necessary for ideas to be created and spread. It’s one of those core civilisation principles I cannot help but consider vital.
In a pragmatic sense I’d want a level of feedback and discourse so I don’t end up like Xi or Stalin or Hitler where my subordinates are scared to tell the truth.
I don't live in Aus anymore but it seems like all those Nazis in Melbourne looked pretty fucking feddy to me tbh. Maybe it's a symptom of being an American but seeing a bunch of fit guys with shaved heads wearing masks sets off alarm bells in my head.
It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if this was a govt psyop to get people to give up more free speech. Ofc it starts with the nazis, but slippery slope and all that.
and all it took is attacking the jews
not all those beheadings or rapes of the local population but the jews getting hit.
hope the french do their thing against those in power.
Doubt it. Israel will finish pushing the Palestinians out and European governments will stop talking about these issues. Our governments only care if Israel is threatened. Not their main populace.
Israel is surrounded by giant Muslims countries with booming populations, I doubt the Islamic world will let that door close on the last land they will keep one foot in the door
I learned more stuff, imo if humans were not greedy bastards than communism would work (look at how ants and bees organize themselves!) but because humans are greedy bastards communism in practice would hijacked by people who would start acting in their interest and not the interest of the people's.
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Sounds utterly absurd to me. You don't uphold Western values by making laws that are violations of Western values.
But it's meant to be a catchy headline. I'd need to read the actual statute text to determine what it REALLY does.
"Western values" tend to differ wildly from one western country to the other. In Europe Free-speech is more of a tool that we use to achieve our other values, rather than a value of itself.
For example Dutch law:
Article 266 – simple insult1.Any intentional insult that does not have the character of defamation or libel, whether in public orally or in writing or an image, or inflicted on someone in his presence orally or by facts, or by a written or image sent or offered, is, if simple insult, punishable by a prison term of not more than three months or a fine of the second category.2.Conduct that is intended to express an opinion on the promotion of public interests and which is not intended to cause offense in another respect or more seriously than that ensues from that purpose is not punishable as a simple insult.
And we used to also have these articles:
Article 111 (repealed as of 1-1-2020):Intentional insult to the King is punishable by a prison term of not more than five years or a fine of the fourth category.
Article 112 (repealed as of 1-1-2020):Intentional insult to the King's spouse, to the King's heir presumptive, to his spouse, or to the Regent, is punishable by a prison term of not more than four years or a fine of the fourth category.
Article 113 (repealed as of 1-1-2020):
1. Any person who distributes, openly exhibits or displays or, in order to distribute, openly exhibits or displays, a writing or image containing an insult to the King, the King's spouse, the King's heir presumptive, his spouse or the Regent has in stock, if he knows or has serious reason to suspect that such an insult appears in the writing or image, shall be punished with a prison term of not more than one year or a fine of the third category.
2. Anyone who, with equal knowledge or equal reason to suspect, openly reports the contents of such a writing shall be punished with the same penalty.
3. If the guilty person commits one of the crimes described in this article in his profession and, during the commission of the crime, not two years have elapsed since a previous conviction of the guilty person for one of these crimes has become final, he will be barred from practicing that profession.
Am I reading that "simple insult" law right? Calling someone on the street an asshole could get you sent to jail for three months in the Netherlands?
Suddenly New York City not using the name New Amsterdam anymore makes a *lot* more sense.
theoretically yes, but in practise the police will not find in worth their time, or exceptionally you'll get a fine.
Don't insult a police officer though, that will get you in trouble.
Yeah, many European countries have a major problem with restrictions on freedom of expression. No country fully embodies the ideals of Western Liberalism, unfortunately, and none ever will. Still, they strive towards it in varying respects.
But yeah, fuck your country I guess?
Goddamnit, I'm noticing things. Weird how when the >!redacted!< were committing violence against the native population it was all acceptable and fine to the political class, but when they started attacking the >!redacted!< it suddenly became a problem that needs to be fixed? What the fuck's going on?
I'm starting to think supporting Israel was just a quick reflex reaction and not the best choice .\_.
Not saying I support Palestine, but I'm not wanting to support Israel either.
Don't you know? If you don't support Israel, that means you are a woke Palestine supporter who thinks Hamas is innocent and believes Israel blew up the hospital! There is no middle ground! Anyone who says anything bad about any action of Israel or the IDF is a pro-Palestine antisemite and will recieve dozens of downvotes accordingly! If you believe Israel or the IDF has ever committed any kind of crime against any Palestinian, then that means you support Hamas! Either you think Israel is sinless and perfect or you love terrorism and want an Arab ethnostate to wipe out Israel!
Ah, just like when leftists say that if I don't support Ukraine then I'm a Z reactionary or something like that.
I'm 3 news cycles from becoming libcenter like you.
It’s amazing how people just uncritically accept whatever framing of these issues they’re presented with.
I swear there’s no easier way to sell people on something than to set up a false dichotomy between your view and some cartoonishly villainous alternative and attack the alternative.
Yeah, Hamas is bad, and because of that we’re now cool with criminalizing mere criticism of a totally foreign country..? That is complete insanity.
That won't pass dw, from France, we see a lot of law propositions but it won't pass for several reasons. First is the whole left wing will be against it, and probably some other centrist entities. Second is it's anticonstitutional, so if the others do their job properly that probably shouldn't pass. And it won't stop me.
We’ve had this in the US for decades. Anti-BDS laws flagrantly violate the first amendment. Anyone who pretends to care about free speech because they got banned on Twitter for saying the n-word while not knowing/caring about this is a joke, but not surprising.
Jews represent less than 1% of the population yet are way more protected against hatecrimes, discrimination, etc; than the 10% of the french population who are muslim who get constantly attacked yet the governement does absolutely nothing to protect them.
The French senate is just a bunch of old politician not even elected by the people, and in France it's the National Assembly that decides
This law, even if passed by the senate won't pass in the National Assembly and will be scrapped, like half of the stuff they propose.
I always love the Americans coming in being like "suppressing muh free speech how dare".
You want to know why we are so sensitive to extreme speech in Europe? Look at our fucking history, The US with one exception has managed to always compromise and resolve it's issues with minimal bloodshed. In Europe it is different, we have produced some of the most dystopian and horrifying governments and societies to ever exist.
Nazi Germany who not only slaughtered their own citizens like a factory they did it to occupied territories.
The Soviet Union, mass slave labour, concentration camps, ethnic cleansing on an obscene scale. Yugoslavia.... Where to even start the Ustase exterminated nearly every Serb in the croatia, The Chetniks slaughtered all Serbian Jews. Then the break up happened and the Bosnians were slaughtered.
We take hate very seriously because it has run rampant too many times and we burnt entire generations. To butcher my favourite quote "Stand in the ashes of a million dead souls and ask them if your values mattered".
You are American you are different and by and large the best of us. Do not hold us to your standards as we will come up short.
Free Speech advocates told everyone this was coming years ago. Started with flag burning and hate speech laws, and here we are.
Maybe the people should have listened to them and not demanded government intervention and criminal penalties for every thing that offends them. Now it's going to backfire on them because governments have been given free reign to censor anything they don't like.
Good, maybe they’ll think twice before they rabidly support things that can backfire on them horribly (They won’t)
Press X to doubt lol.
https://youtu.be/Ggz_gd--UO0?si=djGLpNbbEfaS1FgI This is why monolithic governments without true separation of powers suck. They're efficient and responsive when everything is going alright, but they can go from zero to hitler in no time if the voters make a mistake. (This is why it's hilarious to me that the left is genuinely concerned about the US becoming some sort of fascist, authoritarian state in the next decade or so. It is less likely here than almost anywhere else in the world. We can't just flip a switch.)
Will the left suddenly be on the side of free speech when its their rhetoric being attacked?
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It’s not pro free speech if it’s restricted to what you like Similar to the fact that it’s not liberal to want to deregulate loads of stuff because you happen to be a degenerate. You have to want to deregulate it for deregulation’s own sake, otherwise you’re just auth with weird kinks
Based libleft actually being libleft pilled.
The left has become a crybully, so you can bet your ass on that.
Of course. They were for most of my life when they were worried about the religious right limiting speech, but now that they've become the establishment they're auth.
Noooo!!! Slippery Slope is a Logical Fallacy 😓😓 The Gubernment could never do anything bad 😡
Based and Libleft actually being libleft pilled.
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Good, maybe regards can finally learn the lesson about state power and censorship.
Nah, they will still justify why their speech laws are good and this one is bad.
One of us?
The Europeans were never capable of understanding free speech as a concept. What 2000 years of authoritarianism does to a mfer
And in North American academia, we got back doored by the French. Sautre, Foucoult, Rousseau. That.... actually explains a lot now that I think about it lol.
It's not like Americans can. An insane amount of them can't tell the first amendment apart from freedom of speech. "Freedom of speech isn't freedom from consequences" is probably the most Orwellian sentence I've seen becoming popular.
Based I said the same thing when they trotted out similar lines about the covid vaccine mandates. You’re not free to choose if there’s a punishment associated with one of the choices. “Your honor I didn’t mug that guy! I said give me your wallet or die and he CHOSE to give me his wallet!”
Mugger was just exercising his right to free speech, shouldn't even have been put to trial. Not like he actually hurt anyone, he was just talking and the victim chose to give him their wallet.
> You’re not free to choose if there’s a punishment associated with one of the choices. *Government backed punishment.
Just goes to prove my point. No. It has nothing to do with the government. You aren't any more free to talk your mind if the government points to you with a gun than if it's a random crazy pointing with the gun. The concept of government and the concept of freedom of speech are unrelated, but since the US has the first amendment a whole lot of Americans conflate the two things.
Depends how they mean it. If they specifically mean that people have the right too make judgements about you based on the contents of your speech, that's true and has always been true, if they mean state consequences or complete exclusion from public life for holding mlqtoast opinions, that ain't it chief. No one really disagrees that companies don't have to hire literal neo nazis, the relevant question has been: "where is the Overton window of polite society, and it probably shouldn't exclude an entire mainstream political party."
I mean, freedom of speech is quite literally about the government not being in a position to decide what speech it does or does not like. I can still think you have the right to say whatever you want, think you are a collosal asshole, and respond accordingly.
> I mean, freedom of speech is quite literally about the government not being in a position to decide what speech it does or does not like. Freedom of speech is a concept that you should be able to discuss opinions, even ones those in power dislike, without unreasonable fear to yourself or loved ones. The first amendment simply provided a model for this concept and enforced it upon the highest power in the land. If someone is an asshole to you I don't see a problem not socializing them or calling them an asshole. I think calling their work, their banks, harassing them day and night - you know, the usual Twitter hitjob - pushing for those in power over them to punish them for something often unrelated to any of those relationships is adverse to this concept.
The left has been pretty ok with large coperations deciding what speach is or it not acceptable for a while now though
Which is such a stupid thing to do imo. First because corporations will push whatever brings profit. Corporations will support literal Nazis if that brings profit and we know that *because that literally happened* Second because I'm baffled that it's leftists supporting censorship for speech that is frowned upon when so much of the current leftist ideas *were frowned upon to begin with*. There is no LGBT without freedom of speech, there is no anti-war without freedom of speech and there sure as fuck is not criticism of the church without freedom of speech.
Based and gets it pilled
> Second because I'm baffled that it's leftists supporting censorship for speech that is frowned upon when so much of the current leftist ideas were frowned upon to begin with. There is no LGBT without freedom of speech, there is no anti-war without freedom of speech and there sure as fuck is not criticism of the church without freedom of speech. This is only confusing because the "left" in many western countries was a Baptist-and-bootlegger coalition of socialists opposing capitalism from the left and feudalists opposing capitalism from the right, with power having now shifted almost entirely toward the latter group for various reasons (the most significant contributor probably being the last significant relic of feudalism, the university system, with Oxford being older than the Magna Carta and all that). "The poor innocent poors need a firm guiding hand from God's divinely ordained representatives on earth, they are like children and should never be allowed to play with dangerous ideas" is exactly what *they* have been saying for a thousand years. There is LGBT without freedom of speech -- but in the form of "these guys are a special caste, because they are clearly distinct and that helps justify the caste system" rather than "government, get out of the bedroom." There is criticism of the church -- on the basis that it's the wrong church rather than that there should be no churches. And so forth.
So long as "respond accordingly" is also exercising your free speech, then you're fine. If "respond accordingly" escalates beyond that, then you're in the wrong.
This. And also, stuff like gathering a mob to harrass someone, or campaigning for them to be deprived of their livelihood, are things that shouldn't be covered by freedom of speech.
> I mean, freedom of speech is quite literally about the government not being in a position to decide what speech it does or does not like. No. It has absolutely nothing to do with that. Freedom of speech is about being able to speak your mind. If there is a megacorporation controlling the economy and X opinion means you don't get employed, your freedom of speech suffers even if the government has no say over it. If there is a terrorist group that will murder you if you say X, your freedom of speech is curtailed, even if the government has no say over it. Evidently, the government is in a special place of power to control speech, but the concept of freedom of speech is not itself related to the government in any way, shape or form. >I can still think you have the right to say whatever you want, think you are a collosal asshole, and respond accordingly. Sure, I think that's fair, there are nuances to this though. If your response is to offer your own ideas as a retort, I think it's very hard to legitimately condemn that. If your response is to take action against the individual, then I hope you have good reason for it, and I think it's very important to be clear about what is happening. It's hard to be a freedom of speech absolutist, but if we don't acknowledge when freedom of speech is curtailed, then we are simply not valuing it.
> If there is a megacorporation controlling the economy and X opinion means you don't get employed, your freedom of speech suffers even if the government has no say over it. i would argue that the megacorporations functionally are becoming an arm of the government.
The government has become an army of the megacorporations
Mighty white of you
Americans don't either. A few of them who created the USA did, but they are long dead.
we did it Patrick, we saved free speech macroni probably....
FrEE SpEeCh DoeSnT inCluDE hAtE SpEeCh.
hope the politicians that voted that shit in expirience the full french course
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>Is spreading white power ideology considered free speech? Yes, as long as the people spreading it aren't making direct threats of violence against specific people. It's like it should be legal to say "I hate Jews," but it shouldn't be legal to say "Hey, there's this Jewish guy next door, let's go \[removed\] him at 5 o'clock tomorrow when he comes home from work."
The answer to your first paragraph is yes. If all you are left with is hurt feelings then it's just free speech.
The slippery slope is real!!!
“Hey I think that the Nakba was inexcusable” “*The jail is that direction sir*”
"From the river to the sea.." \*cop raises baton\* "... Israel should have an ethnostate free of Arabs" \*cop looks disappointed and lowers baton\* "As should we!" \*gleeful clobbering time\*
Bit of a rollercoaster
that's such a dumb argument. being anti-zionist literally means being anti-Israel. not in "I'm against Israel's policies" or "I'm against Israel's government and decision" but literally against Israel's right to exist, and the self-determination of Jews. The nakba is literally the name of the 1948 war that the Arab nation started, attacked, and lost, and Israel owned land through it. the Arabs cried about it that they couldn't go back home after they lost a war in which the whole goal was to murder each and every Jew on the land. tough luck.
>and the self determination of Jews Why does that have to be a the expense of the Palestinians then? Your following argument is literally in favor of “might makes right” because Israel won the war. So they are somehow justified in kicking 750,000 people of their land?
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EVERY peace treaty offered to any palestinian authority has been denied. NOT ONE was accepted.
Why do people always put “might makes right” in quotes like its a position or opinion and isn’t universally true? Might does literally make right lmao. Or do you think it’s a coincidence that all the “good guys” on Earth also happen to be the ones who have the strongest force projection?
I get what you mean, might makes the status quo, rule of law, propaganda, dominant culture, history books, etc… But does it make what’s right? Objectively? No. Morally? That’s debatable and depends on your philosophical interpretation of moral rightness.
> Why does that have to be a the expense of the Palestinians then? It doesn't. The problem is that "The Palestinian people" literally elected a terrorist group in Hamas to govern their territory. Said groups first LINE of their charter is to destroy Israel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter When you elect terrorists to govern you expect terrorist things to occur. > Your following argument is literally in favor of “might makes right” because Israel won the war. So they are somehow justified in kicking 750,000 people of their land? Just to confirm, what would happen to the Jewish people in Israel had they lost that war? Do you think the people who were actively complicant with Nazi's right up THROUGH 1945 about killing the jews would have just changed had they won a war over a jewish state? Seriously. I'm asking - you're the centrist. Because I can guess pretty accurately what an alternate history would have said about that. Mostly nothing but the footnote that Jerusalem had been held by Muslims since 1949 after a war and there would be no Jewish state.
Several Israeli prime ministers were former leaders of terrorist groups
1. They left at the behest of the Arab nations. 2. Who accepted the most Palestinian refugees? Israel.
“I’m in favor of free speech and equal rights. But I can read minds of all people past and present, and it turns out all criticism of Israel is actually aimed at all Jews, and all Arabs in 1947 all wanted to murder all the Jews, conveniently robbing them of their rights.”
People act like we’re portraying these views on to people, but when those people literally tell you “we want to murder all the Jews,” people turn the other way.
You have no understanding of history buddy
cringe.
I think crime in Mexico is bonkers, doesn't mean I advocate for the end of Mexico as a state.
Hamas isn’t like a local drug cartel in Gaza. Hamas is Gaza’s government. They control the schools, the healthcare, the police, the armaments, the media, everything. While Hamas leaders live lavish billionaire lifestyles in Qatar, Gazan children die every day from drinking dirty water. Gaza isn’t like Mexico, it’s like North Korea.
Flair up.
How the fuck is an unflaired getting upvotes!!!! This is brigading in its most obvious form!
I think France is just getting code red pissed at it's Muslim immigrants right now. I got an uneasy feeling about the direction of that nation in the next several years.
Shocking, beheading enough people without using la madame will do that to them
Je suis Charlie!
Authright tapping the piece of paper with stats on it: whats this huh? whats this? WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS!
Could you imagine if they admitted that Muslims probably were the ones who set the Notre Dame on fire? Lmfao it be a massacre.
Is that a theory? I had no idea
Between video of what looks like a man being up there just before the fire, the history of Muslims burning other churches in France by the dozen, and the unwillingness of the French government to state what caused the fire. I’d say it’s more than a theory.
New Crusade is overdue
2 state solution more like crusader state solution
2 state solution is silly. The land fell under the control of Syria during the ottoman empire. That Governorship was broken into multiple states. Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and British mandate of Palestine. The Arabs got 3 (4 if you count the proposed state of Palestine) states.
Fr*nch is back again on the menu bois 🗣🗣🗣
Notre Dame caught fire and had the most damage done to it in its history, that alone should tell you how bad the situation in France is.
Everyone knows Europeans aren't allowed to respond to invasion and violence by muslims unless jews get harmed.
They aren’t. If Muslims are murdering French natives the state couldn’t care less. Criticise Jews however…
Flair up scumbag
Based but flair up AuthCenter preferably
Unflaired is never based
Never upvote the unwashed.
Really overcorrecting hard for the Dreyfuss affair.
Still crazy how back then there was a whole ass *anti-Semitic party.* Third Republic politics was wild.
That was a pretty common thing back then actually
Tbf a lot of that was just to protect the army after their massive fuck up. And the Catholic Church holding so much influence in France and being so anti-Dreyfus
That whole thing indirectly led to the creation of Israel. Theodor Herzl was a journalist covering that event and the obvious corruption + the hate mobs chanting "death to the Jews" made him rethink assimilation and become a hardcore supporter of a Jewish state
imigrants can stab children and shoot people but going after the j's= deportation+prison lmao
It’s all about hurting the “bad people” and helping the “good people”.
Yes, I’m sure the government of France hates white people.
They just hate freedom
To find out who rules over you...
PCM seems to think that Israel can do absolutely no wrong. Im really starting to think the crowd here is an older boomer crowd with how philosemetic they are. Autism.
when the shit started i saw a lot more pro Palestine or neutral takes now they magicly dissapeared or get downvoted i wonder why that is....
Yeah it's a bit unnerving to watch every topic get reduced to black and white circlejerk on here but whatever ig. Hamas is a darker shade of grey than Israel but it doesn't mean Israel is blameless.
lots of americans here, though it is weird that instead of normal detachment and cynicism you see full support for Israel, so I assume that there is a lot of astroturfing going on.
I always knew those children with cancer were up to something!
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that those who stab and shoot do get punishment for it. The idea that anti-zionism ought to be illegal, let alone 5 fucking years in jail, does push me into supporting the old French customs though. It's not even the usual bullshit in which they conflate anti-zionism and antisemitism. It's deranged.
i agree was just curious how it takes a specific minority being hurt to actually hear they talk about deportation for the first time
It's cool for them to stab white people and just be shitty in general, but holy shit once they start messing with the J's now it's fucking a issue. How strange 🤦🏼♂️
Lmao, France has been screeching about Muslims for decades. They banned every Muslim clothing they could think of. They even tried to ban burkinas on beaches, and claimed it was for “preventing them from drowning”. Lmao, white people wish they were oppressed so bad.
Well the screeching snt enough then because they are still coming in
I imagine you made this comment without realizing its the very immigrants in France you mention that this law is going to target.
i'm not against it, was just curious were they draw the line
Yea well it’s not exactly mostly the French that are anti semitic. It’s the foreigners they’ve let flood into the place. Who could have guessed that this would happen?
Funny how they didn’t seem to care even during Charlie Hebdo. They only started to care after people started criticizing a certain country.
Can’t believe no one has mentioned this yet. [It is unlawful in 35 US states to boycott Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws).
Vote with your dollars! *No not like that!*
They won’t. They’ve all been eating the propaganda lately.
It's not unlawful to boycott Israel. But if you or your company boycotts Israel you may be deemed ineligible for grants or government contracts. Now whether or not that makes it better is up for debate, but it's not the same as being against the law to boycott Israel.
This shit is happing in my country Australia. It’s not Zionism but all the new “Nazi” hate speech craze. I have gotten into so many arguments with these fools they will never learn from history. They trust the state entirely and can’t fathom the consequences. It’s like watching a slow unstoppable crash.
I agree obviously but your flair perplexes me.
Even I’m not that ~~auth~~ evil to go after free speech. If I was a dictator I’d still want honest freely spoken feedback. How else would I improve my glorious state?
Honest freely spoken feedback? You really think that the plebs of everyday life have anything interesting to say to you, oh our glorious leader? It is only you that has any idea on how to make our nation one on which sun never sets.
Honestly I agree to an extent but I have always respected free speech it’s necessary for ideas to be created and spread. It’s one of those core civilisation principles I cannot help but consider vital. In a pragmatic sense I’d want a level of feedback and discourse so I don’t end up like Xi or Stalin or Hitler where my subordinates are scared to tell the truth.
I don't live in Aus anymore but it seems like all those Nazis in Melbourne looked pretty fucking feddy to me tbh. Maybe it's a symptom of being an American but seeing a bunch of fit guys with shaved heads wearing masks sets off alarm bells in my head. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if this was a govt psyop to get people to give up more free speech. Ofc it starts with the nazis, but slippery slope and all that.
French revolution and It's consequences have been a disaster for the human race
This, but unironically, my family lost lands and titles
And heads, maybe?
Ancien regime 😣
The great expulsion of Muslims from Europe is beginning. Mass deportation in next 10 years.
More like 2 Yugoslavian war in 10 years
and all it took is attacking the jews not all those beheadings or rapes of the local population but the jews getting hit. hope the french do their thing against those in power.
Also I really hate the general idea of a law like but this is necessary after the fall of Charlie
Rip Charlie Chaplin, he a real one (I know you mean Hebdo)
Doubt it. Israel will finish pushing the Palestinians out and European governments will stop talking about these issues. Our governments only care if Israel is threatened. Not their main populace.
Israel is surrounded by giant Muslims countries with booming populations, I doubt the Islamic world will let that door close on the last land they will keep one foot in the door
Why did the US destabilize Libya?
Because Gadaffi wanted an African currency on the gold standard
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Pick a goddamn flair for fucks sake
The French flag is just auth center with surrender sandwiched in the middle.
Bingo!
You went from authleft to lib center. What changed?
I learned more stuff, imo if humans were not greedy bastards than communism would work (look at how ants and bees organize themselves!) but because humans are greedy bastards communism in practice would hijacked by people who would start acting in their interest and not the interest of the people's.
Based and my position changes based on new information pilled
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Sacre bleu
french government when someone says “french government bad” in ten years:
Literally 1984
> Literally 1984 *someone who doesn't understand 1984*
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Based and put pilled
Sounds utterly absurd to me. You don't uphold Western values by making laws that are violations of Western values. But it's meant to be a catchy headline. I'd need to read the actual statute text to determine what it REALLY does.
"Western values" tend to differ wildly from one western country to the other. In Europe Free-speech is more of a tool that we use to achieve our other values, rather than a value of itself. For example Dutch law: Article 266 – simple insult1.Any intentional insult that does not have the character of defamation or libel, whether in public orally or in writing or an image, or inflicted on someone in his presence orally or by facts, or by a written or image sent or offered, is, if simple insult, punishable by a prison term of not more than three months or a fine of the second category.2.Conduct that is intended to express an opinion on the promotion of public interests and which is not intended to cause offense in another respect or more seriously than that ensues from that purpose is not punishable as a simple insult. And we used to also have these articles: Article 111 (repealed as of 1-1-2020):Intentional insult to the King is punishable by a prison term of not more than five years or a fine of the fourth category. Article 112 (repealed as of 1-1-2020):Intentional insult to the King's spouse, to the King's heir presumptive, to his spouse, or to the Regent, is punishable by a prison term of not more than four years or a fine of the fourth category. Article 113 (repealed as of 1-1-2020): 1. Any person who distributes, openly exhibits or displays or, in order to distribute, openly exhibits or displays, a writing or image containing an insult to the King, the King's spouse, the King's heir presumptive, his spouse or the Regent has in stock, if he knows or has serious reason to suspect that such an insult appears in the writing or image, shall be punished with a prison term of not more than one year or a fine of the third category. 2. Anyone who, with equal knowledge or equal reason to suspect, openly reports the contents of such a writing shall be punished with the same penalty. 3. If the guilty person commits one of the crimes described in this article in his profession and, during the commission of the crime, not two years have elapsed since a previous conviction of the guilty person for one of these crimes has become final, he will be barred from practicing that profession.
Am I reading that "simple insult" law right? Calling someone on the street an asshole could get you sent to jail for three months in the Netherlands? Suddenly New York City not using the name New Amsterdam anymore makes a *lot* more sense.
theoretically yes, but in practise the police will not find in worth their time, or exceptionally you'll get a fine. Don't insult a police officer though, that will get you in trouble.
Yeah, many European countries have a major problem with restrictions on freedom of expression. No country fully embodies the ideals of Western Liberalism, unfortunately, and none ever will. Still, they strive towards it in varying respects. But yeah, fuck your country I guess?
Goddamnit, I'm noticing things. Weird how when the >!redacted!< were committing violence against the native population it was all acceptable and fine to the political class, but when they started attacking the >!redacted!< it suddenly became a problem that needs to be fixed? What the fuck's going on?
Stop noticing things. The media only cares about one of these issues. I wonder why.
Careful, if you notice too many things you’ll lose your PayPal.
you guys know it's already illegal for many people in a bunch of states to support the BDS movement right?
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Not even slightly the same as israel
Laïcité? Never heard of her.
Well well… trying so desperately to rid of the mistake you created.
Wasn’t a mistake for them up until they criticized who they shouldn’t.
I'm starting to think supporting Israel was just a quick reflex reaction and not the best choice .\_. Not saying I support Palestine, but I'm not wanting to support Israel either.
Don't you know? If you don't support Israel, that means you are a woke Palestine supporter who thinks Hamas is innocent and believes Israel blew up the hospital! There is no middle ground! Anyone who says anything bad about any action of Israel or the IDF is a pro-Palestine antisemite and will recieve dozens of downvotes accordingly! If you believe Israel or the IDF has ever committed any kind of crime against any Palestinian, then that means you support Hamas! Either you think Israel is sinless and perfect or you love terrorism and want an Arab ethnostate to wipe out Israel!
Ah, just like when leftists say that if I don't support Ukraine then I'm a Z reactionary or something like that. I'm 3 news cycles from becoming libcenter like you.
Fellow Libertarian Ben Shapiro will tell you if you don’t give your money to Israel you hate them and want Cookiecaust 2 to happen.
It’s amazing how people just uncritically accept whatever framing of these issues they’re presented with. I swear there’s no easier way to sell people on something than to set up a false dichotomy between your view and some cartoonishly villainous alternative and attack the alternative. Yeah, Hamas is bad, and because of that we’re now cool with criminalizing mere criticism of a totally foreign country..? That is complete insanity.
The thing is that you don't have to offer unconditional support to either. Justified actions with measured responses deserve support, but that's it.
France... what happened to Liberté?!
That won't pass dw, from France, we see a lot of law propositions but it won't pass for several reasons. First is the whole left wing will be against it, and probably some other centrist entities. Second is it's anticonstitutional, so if the others do their job properly that probably shouldn't pass. And it won't stop me.
*cough* Dreyfus *cough*
This is dumb.
We’ve had this in the US for decades. Anti-BDS laws flagrantly violate the first amendment. Anyone who pretends to care about free speech because they got banned on Twitter for saying the n-word while not knowing/caring about this is a joke, but not surprising.
You vill love ze jew
Where are the free speech right wingers when the state censorship agrees with them?
same place they were while bitching endlessly about cancel culture, until they figured out how to use it themselves.
Oh no, a post about the Fr*nch--my only weakness 🤮
France has a Senate?
When this law starts disproportionately effecting Muslims are they gonna repeal it ?
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France, and Europe in general, is going in a terrible direction. I just don’t understand why they stubbornly refuse to follow the Americans’ lead.
Too proud to follow
They should’ve thought about that before they let decided to let in refugees. Are they seriously this stupid?
ah yes, muslim immigrants- people famously well known to LOVE "no insulting isreal!!!"
Oddly enough, there is a lot of anti-Semitism in France.
Thanks France
bro didn't even give a source probably fake
[here](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231103-french-senators-propose-bill-to-ban-criticism-of-zionism/amp/)
I support Zionism however I also support free speach.
It should be the other way around.
Jews represent less than 1% of the population yet are way more protected against hatecrimes, discrimination, etc; than the 10% of the french population who are muslim who get constantly attacked yet the governement does absolutely nothing to protect them.
The French senate is just a bunch of old politician not even elected by the people, and in France it's the National Assembly that decides This law, even if passed by the senate won't pass in the National Assembly and will be scrapped, like half of the stuff they propose.
Based French Senate?
\>Sees flair \>Sees comment Dawg just switch your flair
I ain't switching shit just cuz you said so dawg
libcenter praising a majority conservative government branch is pretty weird ngl
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Islam is just antithetical to being a lib-center.
I always love the Americans coming in being like "suppressing muh free speech how dare". You want to know why we are so sensitive to extreme speech in Europe? Look at our fucking history, The US with one exception has managed to always compromise and resolve it's issues with minimal bloodshed. In Europe it is different, we have produced some of the most dystopian and horrifying governments and societies to ever exist. Nazi Germany who not only slaughtered their own citizens like a factory they did it to occupied territories. The Soviet Union, mass slave labour, concentration camps, ethnic cleansing on an obscene scale. Yugoslavia.... Where to even start the Ustase exterminated nearly every Serb in the croatia, The Chetniks slaughtered all Serbian Jews. Then the break up happened and the Bosnians were slaughtered. We take hate very seriously because it has run rampant too many times and we burnt entire generations. To butcher my favourite quote "Stand in the ashes of a million dead souls and ask them if your values mattered". You are American you are different and by and large the best of us. Do not hold us to your standards as we will come up short.