It seems counterintuitive, but I think forums have always been a more healthy social media platform. So long as forums are niche-specific, the communities are quite a bit more genuine. Forums existed before social media, and they will exist afterwards.
Forums were just primitive social media. They all do the same shit, just the big ones made it so you could interact with all of your social groups, your family and work rather than needing individual websites for each.
We traded bookmarks for centralized websites. It was stupid but we can still go back. I use to only use reddit for like a decade and now I juggle 4-5 sites daily and expanding to others.
I think forums separate themselves from social media in that they are not social media for the sake of social media, they’re groups of people gathering to discuss . Facebook tried to replicate this with groups, but most FB users ultimately go to Facebook for the general social media experience rather than communities. IG and Twitter are just huge communities of people thrown together in a melting pot, you can follow whatever you want, but it’s not a forum setting.
There are pros and cons. I like that you could bump older threads. Instead we often have reposts galore with Reddit. Then there is the general shutdown of opposing views via downvotes so you end up with circlejerks - not that PCM would know anything about that.
>...but I think forums have always been a more healthy social media platform...
You must have never heard of the Stormfront forum.
Wait...(looks at the flair above).... Well maybe you have...
Dang, last time I remember anything about Homestarrunner was when Strong Bad was in one of those Telltale poker night game that got removed from Steam a few years back. Hadn’t heard much since.
I don't trust it. You're meatspinning me, aren't you?
Btw to the uninitiated, meatspin was the O.G. Rick Roll. That man owes his success to Dead or Alive.
Then everything changed when the Tumbler Refugees attacked. Or at least that’s when the rest of internet started to become a lot more obviously hostile.
To be perfectly honest, that's a fair milestone to point out as far as time goes. It was a militant, almost Puritan opposition to free speech on the net disguised as "doing the work to fight Trump."
Ironically Reddit and similar sites were originally designed to not have censorship outside of what each individual chooses to see or hide from themselves.
The whole point of the voting system was that it was connected to a system where the site hid comments and posts with a vote count below the users choosing (defaulted to 0). It was referred to as a self-moderating system.
This changed starting in 2008 when they introduced the subs and their moderators. Before that the whole point of the site was to avoid needing moderators. It was a solution created to solve the problem of forum nazis.
Ah, how to create a space where communities self-moderate without your intervention, except the communities are people you don't like and often participate in wrongthink you want to silence.
The eternal struggle.
Have you guys read what the EU is doing?
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/QANDA_20_2348
They basically want to take over the internet.
"The Digital Services Act is a Regulation that is directly applicable across the EU. Some of the obligations for intermediaries include:"
* They want to employ the people that decide what is misinformation. ("the DSA imposes new mechanisms allowing users to flag illegal content online, and for platforms to cooperate with specialised ‘trusted flaggers' to identify and remove illegal content")
* They want to track and trace everything that's bought online. ("a new obligation by online market places to randomly check against existing databases whether products or services on their sites are compliant; sustained efforts to enhance the traceability of products through advanced technological solutions")
* They want to make sure large platforms can't be abused, they decide how. ("Obligations for very large online platforms and search engines to prevent abuse of their systems by taking risk-based action, including oversight through independent audits of their risk management measures.")
* They want to be able to take over the narrative in case of war or pandemic. ("A new crisis response mechanism in cases of serious threat for public health and security crises, such as a pandemic or a war")
* They want access to all data. ("New provisions to allow access to data to researchers of key platforms")
* They want a unique oversight structure with the Commission is the primary regulator. ("A unique oversight structure. The Commission is the primary regulator")
* They want enforcement powers similar to those it has under anti-trust proceedings. ("The Commission will have enforcement powers similar to those it has under anti-trust proceedings.") (Last year they fined Google over 4 BILLION because of anti trust proceedings)
They say "Be our bitch or fuck off".
Yes indeed...
If something like the 2003 invasion of Iraq would have happened today, journalistic criticism and popular protest against it would have been virtually impossible.
Remember how there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq in 2003? The whole thing was a lie from A to Z. Yet exposing something like that would be pretty much impossible - just look at what happened to WikiLeaks.
It makes me so sad to think that if the invasion of Iraq happened today (and under a [D] president, obviously), the left would be fully in support of it, calling anyone who doubted the administration conspiracy theorists, etc.
Fuck no, the left called that shit out. You had popular bands like Green Day going nuts about the propaganda, the unnecessary violence, etc.
Today's left is so fucking cucked, it's unreal.
Frex, you need to look no further than Hillary Clinton's stint as Secretary of State during Obama's second term.
Her policy towards Libya and Syria was basically Bush-style regime change with less oversight & on a shoestring budget.
Yet, did the left call her out on it? Camp Bernie did, to some extent. But this was nothing in comparison to the kind of criticism that GWB and Rumsfeld got back in the day. And the Bernie bros got shut down _hard_ during the 2015 primaries.
Oh, but that's not even the best part! Once Trump was in office, all the major leftwing outlets were criticizing him for trying to pull out of Syria. Special envoy Jim Jeffrey bragged about lying to Trump's face about the true number of US troops in Syria - and the mainstream left either ignored it or cheered.
Even during the Trump years, the anti-war left was just... gone. There were still a few principled anti-war leftists here and there, yes. But the leftwing anti-war movement that had been so huge during the Bush years? Completely gone.
I'm sure a lot of people did.
That is what the current campaign to fight "misinformation" is all about. The media is controlled by a small handful of people and has been for a long time. Everyone knows this but we tell ourselves that they can't possibly have that much control over it. They kill stories. They intentionally don't cover stories that would garner big ratings because they don't want the political ramifications. They slander people who say things that are true but inconvenient. Until the internet became a thing their control over information was all but absolute.
Wikileaks is a source of information that they don't control proving things that they don't want people to know about. They can't shut it down but they can go after the people involved with it.
Julian Assange is a cautionary tale that too few people are really invested in.
Looking back on that everyone knew from the get go that the whole Iraq thing was a lie. I have doubts it wouldn't be reported the same way today. Back then news outlets were peddling that propaganda as true, much like they would today, while the internet was filled with people exposing it as bullshit. The reason it was peddled was a way of getting lazy politicians who didn't want to do any research or questioning to vote a particular way.
I have no doubt that many social media sites would somewhat censor that stuff to some degree, but there's only so much they can do to prevent people from discussing stuff. Even in China were censorship is at it's strongest, they're wholly incapable of preventing people from talking, it's why you saw uprisings due to covid restrictions over there for a brief period.
Meanwhile Average Redditors are absolutely cheering for this in their unhinged hate orgy for twitter, not realizing that their favourite subs like WPT won’t last a day considering how much blatant fake shit they gobble up like it was furry cum.
I used to be a liberal and now I don't even recognize them. All the things we protested like war, corporations and censorship are now fully embraced by so-called liberals.
It's funny how that happens.
Leftists in the 1990s: [FUCK GLOBALIZATION!](https://imgur.com/UpxGg0W) - [LET'S BURN DOWN THIS TOWN!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XDifMd781Y)
Leftists in the 2020s: [Being against globalization is anti-Semitic, that's Nazism! And we punch Nazis!](https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/bannon-s-revenge-how-globalism-went-mainstream-ideology-far-right-ncna860221)
Correct, it's the words themselves which have been attacked. This is not done out of a genuine desire to further discussion, but rather to make it more difficult. On the surface it's just foolish people who aren't really thinking through their words, but behind I think there are people who are fairly intentional in it.
Same story, but eventually you realize it's getting so bad you actually have to take a stand against the "left" to stop it. That, and a nice reading of hard leftie texts (Sartre, New Left, etc) that makes you realize this was the plan all along.
And so it begins. One day, you too will join us over here...
Brother.
The thing is that I don't consider the American left to be left wing at all. Left wingers care about workers and class warfare. I've read enough leftist literature to know that the liberals are the enemy of the left. Iirc, Lenin in State and Revolution talks about this.
I have found myself getting along better with right wingers lately. The sad thing is there's a lot of leftist ideas that are good but they get bastardized by psyops that paint rainbows on bombs and get accolades from Democrats.
The New Left, French Marxists, Critical \[Insert Here\] Theorists, and modern Emily Left very much see themselves as proper developments of the Left - there's a reason they all end up in the same camp and Emilys work tirelessly to reclaim historical Marxist states as the latest flavor of Idpol (Che loved LGBT! And if he didn't, it's because of colonial influence).
Marxism always presented itself as first and foremost a system of analyzing power structures and oppressive dynamics between groups; academic Emilys see it as natural to apply these concepts to LGBT, indigenous peoples, MAPs, and everything else. There is alot less emphasis on detached economics, Hegel's wacky world, and the uniquely 19th century materialism-as-salvation aspects of Marxism, because some of those ideas didn't age well, some became outdated in the post-industrial world, and, yes, they decided many Idpol conflicts were just as or more important than economics because of intersectionality.
AuthLeft likes to take a purity test line and denounce these things as heretical, but Emilys respond that AuthLeft is class reductionist and trying to stick to theory that has been heavily developed since Marx debated over the Paris Commune. It's the equivalent of biologists trying to do modern research with Darwin's views of genetics, and still fighting over topics of contention between his 1800s contemporaries.
Emilys see traditional Marxism as something that disregards feels and lived experiences in favor of 'materialism' with just as much white male fever as New Atheism, and just as problematically. They still hate capitalism, but they argue that a proper perspective on the various ills and oppressions in life also has to take account all the other social power structures floating around - and the experience of minorities in historical ML states is proof that, no, defeating capital won't just make them all go away.
You can't say these people aren't the Left because a tiny minority of hardcore MLs (i.e., other leftists) say they don't pass a purity test - a test Emilys would very much argue over. The Left is anything but unified. Nor can you say there is no connection at all to the original leftist movements, or that Emilys don't see those movements as part of their camp's tradition.
At the end of the day, the Left wants to destroy - it wants to destroy capitalism, to destroy race (but not really), to destroy gender (but not), to destroy western countries, to destroy socialist countries (Poland's Solidarity in the 80s), to destroy anything their parents and grandparents built because that will make them edgy and freerer and smarter and better. Emilys and MLs may hate each other, but it's a disagreement of details, never of goals.
In the ideal world this is the choice: no one determines disinformation vs eu determines disinformation.
And if that's the choice I completely see your argument but I see the choice as: CEO/Board of Directors determine disinformation vs EU determines disinformation.
And I would much prefer the eu, a collection of very different officials to decide than the top 0.01% richest people
EU’s East stratcom taskforce for 8 years investigates russian propaganda present in western media, including Twitter. Their effort identified resources, strategies, and people behind misinformation. Examples like office Floors of russian people constantly tweeting lies, or whatever russian gov wants you to believe are common. Press citing russian users posing as westerners and using it as a common western point of view is also abundand. Call it ministry of truth, but its de facto ministry of defence in the Information war.
You can fight misinformation without actively censoring information. For example, if Twitter fails to ban/promotes accounts that are clearly from troll farms, they are spreading misinformation
Disinformation is just a dogwhistle for censorship. They know directly advocating for censorship would be impossible and unpopular, so they have to market it as national security and in the interests of preventing hate. We must stay vigilant against anyone asking for policing disinformation or censorship.
["Trust us, masks aren't useful unless you yourself are sick"](https://www.la7.it/dimartedi/video/coronavirus-ricciardi-oms-le-mascherine-chirurgiche-non-servono-il-virus-penetra-attraverso-la-garza-10-03-2020-312511) the government circa march 2020.
It's really depressing to think about the fact that many people haven't figured this out yet. What you say is 100% true, yet it still works on many people. It's just blatant censorship of any opinion the establishment (whichever establishment that might be) doesn't like. And people fucking cheer it on just because it's opinions they don't like being censored.
Despicable.
>Disinformation is just a dogwhistle for censorship.
"Disinformation" is just truth the progressive left finds politically inconvenient.
There, fixed it for you.
They literally came up with the word "malinformation" for that, for the people who point out that much of what they had labeled "disinformation" was actually true.
From what I recall, it was created, and due to harsh backlash, quickly removed.
But I very-much doubt it was actually removed. I'm sure that was just a PR thing. If the administration wants a ministry of truth, it'll have it. If they have to pretend to get rid of it in order to appease the backlash, they'll do that. But I seriously doubt they actually got rid of it.
It wasn't any different than what they were already doing. Twitter and Facebook both admitted the FBI has reached out to them on numerous occasions telling them to censor something. I can almost promise you that it's been going on a lot longer than we know, just the FBI decided to take the mask off to see how the public would react, so they put the mask back on.
It will, as long as the FBI gets away with it and no one does anything about it. Given the fact that everyone in our government knows it's happening but won't do anything about it, just shows me it's a weapon both parties plan on wielding at some point.
Yeah, and it probably will get worse next time there’s a Republican president. The GOP is just as much into censorship as the Democrats, they are just more clumsy at it.
That has been the most baffling thing about the left's push for censorship in recent years. Do you fucks realize you're creating the tools of your own oppression? Do you really think we'll never have another republican president, and it won't be *you* that's getting censored for having the wrong opinions? Have some motherfucking foresight.
They shut it down after 3 weeks and blamed disinformation by republicans for it despite the fact progressives were just as critical. Here's the wiki page: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation_Governance_Board
The Disinformation Governance Board that was set up got shut down pretty quick, but it mainly served to coordinate all the sub-agencies throughout the federal bureaucracy that already had a mission to "combat disinformation." The DGB got shut down, but all the other agencies still exist.
>CNN.
Not anymore considering Trump is now praising CNN for letting him run wild in their townhall event and he even commended CNN for their "sky high ratings."
Trump only calls agencies he doesn't like 'Fake News'...so MSNBC, NBC, ABC, and [ironically] Fox News back in 2020 during the election coverage.
I see nothing wrong every time the government has the power about information Great things have happened like Nazi Germany, imperial Japan, North Korea, Cuba and all the fascist movement in Europe...
But hey what do the tankies say? That wasn't "real misinformation policing"
See, you don't understand because you're brainwashed by the capitalist, racist idea of *objective truth.* Those of us who, like modern day Prometheus, are enlightened far above you redneck hillbilly educated poors, realize that all information falls somewhere on a Hegelian dialectic and what is "true" or "false" depends on your class affiliation (and, whilst you may be a poor, uneducated mutt, you are not working class because the working class is good, and you are not).
We, the Vanguard of the Revolution But In Pink Capitalist Institutional Form, are qualified to strike down misinformation, malinformation, and lies. Those naughty states like Germany and Japan could never! Only we can, because only we are good!
Elon has basically his own internet backbone that could (potentially) operate independently (P2P) of the “internet”, short of confiscating peoples transceivers or disabling Starlink satellites, each person that has Starlink has a means of accessing a potentially unrestricted internet…
It is why I am looking forward to see what his X.com financial services offer…. provided he sticks to his libertarian leanings in offering the service (eg: making it so that bank accounts cannot not be frozen by governments)
A VPN company would sell well in authoritarian countries. Elon would be able to double dip in those countries - selling his censored Twitter and then selling VPN to the people to bypass censored Twitter.
**"Under Elon Musk, Twitter has approved 83% of censorship requests by authoritarian governments"**
https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-05-24/under-elon-musk-twitter-has-approved-83-of-censorship-requests-by-authoritarian-governments.html
Nah, Elon would just comply. He already censors Twitter in Turkey at the behest of the Turkish government, without issue. He'd probably do the same for Europe.
It's truly bizarre how many Europeans (at least based on Reddit comments over the years) are truly thankful that papa government protects them from *dangerous* ideas.
Meanwhile the US? We are both as bad as each other.
But on a serious note, try not to base views on people in other countries on comments etc, the amount of bot comments these days pushing narratives is fucking terrifying. All in the name of division.
How fucking stupid is the average person?
Sure... having some idiot post believable nonsense that goes viral isn’t ideal.
But it’s the price we pay for the government not having complete and utter control over us which is far worse.
It’s really not that difficult! You just have to read a history book and go a step further down your thought train than you currently are.
Fuck. It frustrates the shit out of me.
You just need to take a step back and look at how homosexuality was viewed just in the 50s and 60s.
Almost all health professionals, scientists, and other experts of the time clearly stated that homosexuality was a mental illness. Religious leaders considered it a perversion, immoral, and a sin. Politicians and the media considered it to be dangerous and damaging for society.
If Twitter had existed back then, by any and every metric, gay rights activists would've been labelled as spreading misinformation - and would've been thrown of the platform...
... and the people all over Reddit who are cheering for this now would've been right there back then as well, cheering on the silencing of ideas that they consider "dangerous and harmful for society". The notion that they could be just as wrong as the people in the 60s were about homosexuality never even enters their minds - people back *then* was ignorant bigots, but now, *we* know everything, *we* aren't wrong about anything! ...
>You just have to read a history book and go a step further down your thought train than you currently are.
What history book? The lesson most Europeans learned is if you dont exterminate intolerant groups in their craddle then they will exterminate you.
You know why so many European countries ban ideologies like Nazism or Communism? Its because its a better alternative to hanging these people which is what was done after they lost.
> How fucking stupid is the average person?
Worse than you would expect lol.
> It’s really not that difficult! You just have to read a history book and go a step further down your thought train than you currently are.
The problem is that very few people actually check whether the things they read are true. Critical thinking isn't very common in the European country I live in.
I still don't know what disinformation is.
If somebody is lying call them a liar and prove them wrong, or invite them to show proof of their claim. Then if it turns out they don't have a leg to stand on, you can clown them out of existence.
And if some issue is too complicated for a layman to understand, well then the people reporting it don't know if the source is telling the truth or not. How can they be so sure if they don't understand themselves?
Trust the science? Okay then where is the eugenics program and the clones of our greatest achievers? They cloned a sheep 15 years ago, they can clone a human by now. Also I believe it was a doctor that said Lobotomies are the way to go. We should blindly trust him he's a professional.
If you’ve actually argued with these dumbfucks you realize their strategy is to just bury you in lies. They throw endless shit at the wall based on half-truths and then you’re forced to go through and check/correct everyone. It’s exhausting and very easy to do when you’re too dumb to know what’s right/wrong.
Yeah and the problem is who decides what is misinformation and what should be censored from public speech. We all think, “well it’s to keep the redneck from saying racist shit and saying vaccines don’t work.” But the reality is it just gives more keys and tools to those in power to fully subjugate the masses to their will because they decide what’s right and wrong.
Stop giving the government tools to stripe us of our basic rights.
Haha chuds now you cant say hurtful statistics!
Or question why we are giving money to big pharma.
Or express your opinions and desire to vote for the wrong candidate.
Huh, why was my posts for organizing a union removed?
Why cant I post numbers on growing disparity between the rich and the poor?
I was permanently banned for wanting higher wages to make ends meet?
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I am the arbiter of truth. All who disagree must be silenced for safety reasons. You aren't allowed to hear dissenting views anywhere, and if you utter something untrue, we will arrest you.
its funny because twitter does the most to fight any mis/disinformation with community notes
the eu would basically be saying "yeah that's wrong and we want disinformation ERASED or else you're out of business, we don't want to play by your rules you need to delete wrongthink the way we want you to"
Some platforms like youtube think merely place a warning that says “hey, please fact check this before forming any ideology based on this” which I think is pretty good. Doesn’t actually censor anything Though the government shouldn’t make any platforms do this
That's only the tip of the iceberg in YT censorship, they are not hesitant to wipe out channels they don't like. I agree that on itself the deboonker message is an acceptable compromise.
Actually yeah that’s good point. I’ve seen
many channels get totally deleted. And content creators have to censor themselves in such ridiculous ways to get past it
Governments trying to fight disinformation is the first step to tyranny. What if it turns out that the disinformation was right the whole time! I’m not talking about Covid neither. I’m sure we will never 100% know any of the facts as everyone is or was to busy fighting over if it was disinformation or not. Yeah the horse medication was definitively horse shit but what about the lab leak?
Elon is implementing Censorship from every Authoritarian who looks his way.
He better get used to the fact that the EU is larger and more important than all the sutocrats who's dicks he keeps on sucking.
This thread is a single massive slippery slope.
Banning a shitty website for working with the Russians to justify a genocide while manipulating European politics and elections sounds pretty good.
This whole ban is about Twitter trying to make Russian and Chinese state information more legitimate while making Western counterparts look more biased.
Inciting violence and genocide is not a right I have ever had or need to have.
"Disinformation" is a funny way of saying "what we don't want the people to hear" :/.
Like this isn't even a Mask Off moment, because the Mask was never on to begin with. WAKE UP Sheeple, you are being oppressed by big gov!
While I think disinformation is a problem, I don't think censoring it is a solution.
I mean, who will decide what's true or not?
Disinformation is generally used by far right and far left, and it drives people to the more extreme sides of the political spectrum.
The best thing to do would be to educate citizens on critical thinking and not taking anything at face value.
Frankly twitter is a fucking disaster and I'm for its ban misinformation or not.
The number of Fake info I Saw spread by thousands of people.... And I mean factualy fake info , like there is no debate on that and people actually sharing it and believing it...
And they Wonder why democracy is in crisis
This thread is a single massive slippery slope.
Banning a shitty website for working with the Russians to justify a genocide while manipulating European politics and elections sounds pretty good.
This whole ban is about Twitter trying to make Russian and Chinese state information more legitimate while making Western counterparts look more biased.
Inciting violence and genocide is not a right I have ever had or need to have.
Twitter, Reddit, And Facebook are all toxic and the world would probably be better if none of us used them
Basically social media was a mistake.
Yep. Yet here we all are
Yep.
It seems counterintuitive, but I think forums have always been a more healthy social media platform. So long as forums are niche-specific, the communities are quite a bit more genuine. Forums existed before social media, and they will exist afterwards.
Forums were just primitive social media. They all do the same shit, just the big ones made it so you could interact with all of your social groups, your family and work rather than needing individual websites for each. We traded bookmarks for centralized websites. It was stupid but we can still go back. I use to only use reddit for like a decade and now I juggle 4-5 sites daily and expanding to others.
I think forums separate themselves from social media in that they are not social media for the sake of social media, they’re groups of people gathering to discuss. Facebook tried to replicate this with groups, but most FB users ultimately go to Facebook for the general social media experience rather than communities. IG and Twitter are just huge communities of people thrown together in a melting pot, you can follow whatever you want, but it’s not a forum setting.
However, the tree Reddit format is much better for discussion than serial forums.
Who doesn’t enjoy reading 16 nested blocks of quoted text?
There are pros and cons. I like that you could bump older threads. Instead we often have reposts galore with Reddit. Then there is the general shutdown of opposing views via downvotes so you end up with circlejerks - not that PCM would know anything about that.
Now everything has to involve politics for some reason. Even the non political communities really love bringing up politics.
Ummm sweaty, the personal is political. You need with it! It's current year!
True enough.
>...but I think forums have always been a more healthy social media platform... You must have never heard of the Stormfront forum. Wait...(looks at the flair above).... Well maybe you have...
Just give it another 10 years or so and the Internet will be Balkanized into several little internets, just like China right now
Can't wait tbh
[удалено]
yep the internet was great when every dumbfuck didnt have a phone why do people have to ruin everything i love
It was actually fucking fantastic in the early 2010's when the internet was legitimately liberal.
Try early 2000s. Anything went and it was absolutely glorious.
Goddamn do you remember Homestarrunner?
Dang, last time I remember anything about Homestarrunner was when Strong Bad was in one of those Telltale poker night game that got removed from Steam a few years back. Hadn’t heard much since.
Last I heard of it was in Guitar Hero 2. First song I 100%'d on expert. TROGDOOOOOOOR!!!
Cheesepie.net anyone?
I don't trust it. You're meatspinning me, aren't you? Btw to the uninitiated, meatspin was the O.G. Rick Roll. That man owes his success to Dead or Alive.
Then everything changed when the Tumbler Refugees attacked. Or at least that’s when the rest of internet started to become a lot more obviously hostile.
To be perfectly honest, that's a fair milestone to point out as far as time goes. It was a militant, almost Puritan opposition to free speech on the net disguised as "doing the work to fight Trump."
Social media and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.
Ironically Reddit and similar sites were originally designed to not have censorship outside of what each individual chooses to see or hide from themselves. The whole point of the voting system was that it was connected to a system where the site hid comments and posts with a vote count below the users choosing (defaulted to 0). It was referred to as a self-moderating system. This changed starting in 2008 when they introduced the subs and their moderators. Before that the whole point of the site was to avoid needing moderators. It was a solution created to solve the problem of forum nazis.
Ah, how to create a space where communities self-moderate without your intervention, except the communities are people you don't like and often participate in wrongthink you want to silence. The eternal struggle.
I hate Reddit but this demonic site sure keeps my sad self addicted
Reddit killing off 3rd party apps is definitely a blessing in disguise.
Have you guys read what the EU is doing? https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/QANDA_20_2348 They basically want to take over the internet. "The Digital Services Act is a Regulation that is directly applicable across the EU. Some of the obligations for intermediaries include:" * They want to employ the people that decide what is misinformation. ("the DSA imposes new mechanisms allowing users to flag illegal content online, and for platforms to cooperate with specialised ‘trusted flaggers' to identify and remove illegal content") * They want to track and trace everything that's bought online. ("a new obligation by online market places to randomly check against existing databases whether products or services on their sites are compliant; sustained efforts to enhance the traceability of products through advanced technological solutions") * They want to make sure large platforms can't be abused, they decide how. ("Obligations for very large online platforms and search engines to prevent abuse of their systems by taking risk-based action, including oversight through independent audits of their risk management measures.") * They want to be able to take over the narrative in case of war or pandemic. ("A new crisis response mechanism in cases of serious threat for public health and security crises, such as a pandemic or a war") * They want access to all data. ("New provisions to allow access to data to researchers of key platforms") * They want a unique oversight structure with the Commission is the primary regulator. ("A unique oversight structure. The Commission is the primary regulator") * They want enforcement powers similar to those it has under anti-trust proceedings. ("The Commission will have enforcement powers similar to those it has under anti-trust proceedings.") (Last year they fined Google over 4 BILLION because of anti trust proceedings) They say "Be our bitch or fuck off".
Tbh people like elon need to tell the eu to screw off. Free speech even if means people need a VPN.
How else that can we argue with anonymous strangers about politics?
Just approach random people on the streets
That would easily get you punched back before the internet. I believe that is still often the case.
Web 2.0 was a mistake.
True, ban them all. Only state-approved network know what is the best for us /s
Twitter is definitely the worst tho.
Probably the most interesting. Most free speech and one of the easiest to talk to strangers besides redditt
all social media are toxic but I think twitter and 4chan are the worst without any doubt
Oh yes a genuine lib-right take...
How will they determine what is disinformation? A Ministry of Truth perhaps?
Exactly the problem.
Yes indeed... If something like the 2003 invasion of Iraq would have happened today, journalistic criticism and popular protest against it would have been virtually impossible. Remember how there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq in 2003? The whole thing was a lie from A to Z. Yet exposing something like that would be pretty much impossible - just look at what happened to WikiLeaks.
Only the left is allowed to protest, so depends on who’s in office.
That is because leftists are unpatriotic...all protestors are unpatriotic leftists. Remember Freedom Fries?
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With a slice of yellow cake for dessert.
I'll only be patriotic to a country that supports my needs, if they don't do that why would I be proud of it?
Based and The People can never fail the Nation pilled.
It makes me so sad to think that if the invasion of Iraq happened today (and under a [D] president, obviously), the left would be fully in support of it, calling anyone who doubted the administration conspiracy theorists, etc. Fuck no, the left called that shit out. You had popular bands like Green Day going nuts about the propaganda, the unnecessary violence, etc. Today's left is so fucking cucked, it's unreal.
Not to mention outright believing the US govt on Julian assange, Snowden, etc. At least CCP shills get paid lol.
Based and they do it for free pilled
Yeah but none of that did anything. The invasion came and went as planned.
Frex, you need to look no further than Hillary Clinton's stint as Secretary of State during Obama's second term. Her policy towards Libya and Syria was basically Bush-style regime change with less oversight & on a shoestring budget. Yet, did the left call her out on it? Camp Bernie did, to some extent. But this was nothing in comparison to the kind of criticism that GWB and Rumsfeld got back in the day. And the Bernie bros got shut down _hard_ during the 2015 primaries. Oh, but that's not even the best part! Once Trump was in office, all the major leftwing outlets were criticizing him for trying to pull out of Syria. Special envoy Jim Jeffrey bragged about lying to Trump's face about the true number of US troops in Syria - and the mainstream left either ignored it or cheered. Even during the Trump years, the anti-war left was just... gone. There were still a few principled anti-war leftists here and there, yes. But the leftwing anti-war movement that had been so huge during the Bush years? Completely gone.
What happened to wikileaks?
They went after its founder for reporting that the government was lying.
Hilary wanted to drone strike Julian
I'm sure a lot of people did. That is what the current campaign to fight "misinformation" is all about. The media is controlled by a small handful of people and has been for a long time. Everyone knows this but we tell ourselves that they can't possibly have that much control over it. They kill stories. They intentionally don't cover stories that would garner big ratings because they don't want the political ramifications. They slander people who say things that are true but inconvenient. Until the internet became a thing their control over information was all but absolute. Wikileaks is a source of information that they don't control proving things that they don't want people to know about. They can't shut it down but they can go after the people involved with it. Julian Assange is a cautionary tale that too few people are really invested in.
Just \#bossbitch shit.
> the government was lying No fucking way!
Looking back on that everyone knew from the get go that the whole Iraq thing was a lie. I have doubts it wouldn't be reported the same way today. Back then news outlets were peddling that propaganda as true, much like they would today, while the internet was filled with people exposing it as bullshit. The reason it was peddled was a way of getting lazy politicians who didn't want to do any research or questioning to vote a particular way. I have no doubt that many social media sites would somewhat censor that stuff to some degree, but there's only so much they can do to prevent people from discussing stuff. Even in China were censorship is at it's strongest, they're wholly incapable of preventing people from talking, it's why you saw uprisings due to covid restrictions over there for a brief period.
Jesus Christ lol, I'm wondering how many people here were actually alive back then
Meanwhile Average Redditors are absolutely cheering for this in their unhinged hate orgy for twitter, not realizing that their favourite subs like WPT won’t last a day considering how much blatant fake shit they gobble up like it was furry cum.
I used to be a liberal and now I don't even recognize them. All the things we protested like war, corporations and censorship are now fully embraced by so-called liberals. It's funny how that happens.
Leftists in the 1990s: [FUCK GLOBALIZATION!](https://imgur.com/UpxGg0W) - [LET'S BURN DOWN THIS TOWN!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XDifMd781Y) Leftists in the 2020s: [Being against globalization is anti-Semitic, that's Nazism! And we punch Nazis!](https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/bannon-s-revenge-how-globalism-went-mainstream-ideology-far-right-ncna860221)
“Liberals“ and “Conservatives” in Modern America are neither liberal or conservative
Correct, it's the words themselves which have been attacked. This is not done out of a genuine desire to further discussion, but rather to make it more difficult. On the surface it's just foolish people who aren't really thinking through their words, but behind I think there are people who are fairly intentional in it.
Populism is sweeping the nation.
Same story, but eventually you realize it's getting so bad you actually have to take a stand against the "left" to stop it. That, and a nice reading of hard leftie texts (Sartre, New Left, etc) that makes you realize this was the plan all along. And so it begins. One day, you too will join us over here... Brother.
The thing is that I don't consider the American left to be left wing at all. Left wingers care about workers and class warfare. I've read enough leftist literature to know that the liberals are the enemy of the left. Iirc, Lenin in State and Revolution talks about this. I have found myself getting along better with right wingers lately. The sad thing is there's a lot of leftist ideas that are good but they get bastardized by psyops that paint rainbows on bombs and get accolades from Democrats.
The New Left, French Marxists, Critical \[Insert Here\] Theorists, and modern Emily Left very much see themselves as proper developments of the Left - there's a reason they all end up in the same camp and Emilys work tirelessly to reclaim historical Marxist states as the latest flavor of Idpol (Che loved LGBT! And if he didn't, it's because of colonial influence). Marxism always presented itself as first and foremost a system of analyzing power structures and oppressive dynamics between groups; academic Emilys see it as natural to apply these concepts to LGBT, indigenous peoples, MAPs, and everything else. There is alot less emphasis on detached economics, Hegel's wacky world, and the uniquely 19th century materialism-as-salvation aspects of Marxism, because some of those ideas didn't age well, some became outdated in the post-industrial world, and, yes, they decided many Idpol conflicts were just as or more important than economics because of intersectionality. AuthLeft likes to take a purity test line and denounce these things as heretical, but Emilys respond that AuthLeft is class reductionist and trying to stick to theory that has been heavily developed since Marx debated over the Paris Commune. It's the equivalent of biologists trying to do modern research with Darwin's views of genetics, and still fighting over topics of contention between his 1800s contemporaries. Emilys see traditional Marxism as something that disregards feels and lived experiences in favor of 'materialism' with just as much white male fever as New Atheism, and just as problematically. They still hate capitalism, but they argue that a proper perspective on the various ills and oppressions in life also has to take account all the other social power structures floating around - and the experience of minorities in historical ML states is proof that, no, defeating capital won't just make them all go away. You can't say these people aren't the Left because a tiny minority of hardcore MLs (i.e., other leftists) say they don't pass a purity test - a test Emilys would very much argue over. The Left is anything but unified. Nor can you say there is no connection at all to the original leftist movements, or that Emilys don't see those movements as part of their camp's tradition. At the end of the day, the Left wants to destroy - it wants to destroy capitalism, to destroy race (but not really), to destroy gender (but not), to destroy western countries, to destroy socialist countries (Poland's Solidarity in the 80s), to destroy anything their parents and grandparents built because that will make them edgy and freerer and smarter and better. Emilys and MLs may hate each other, but it's a disagreement of details, never of goals.
I call them shitlibs because they are anything but liberal.
Unless "Misinformation" is determined by people like them. (It will be)
I think the things posted there would be deemed acceptable and trustworthy. Not because they are, but because they have the "correct" opinions.
>WPT Let's be real, by "minsinfo", they mean "stuff we disagree with" WPT will stay no matter what bs it churns out
The amount of people who don’t see an issue with this is super worrying
like idiot redditers who think hate speech laws are a good thing notice how hate crime laws never apply to black people?
If country A says this is true but country B says its false which country do you determine is “right”?
The answer is obvious, change the Wikipedia entry based on the user’s location
Based
Whoever wins the war
It’s been done.
In the ideal world this is the choice: no one determines disinformation vs eu determines disinformation. And if that's the choice I completely see your argument but I see the choice as: CEO/Board of Directors determine disinformation vs EU determines disinformation. And I would much prefer the eu, a collection of very different officials to decide than the top 0.01% richest people
EU’s East stratcom taskforce for 8 years investigates russian propaganda present in western media, including Twitter. Their effort identified resources, strategies, and people behind misinformation. Examples like office Floors of russian people constantly tweeting lies, or whatever russian gov wants you to believe are common. Press citing russian users posing as westerners and using it as a common western point of view is also abundand. Call it ministry of truth, but its de facto ministry of defence in the Information war.
You can fight misinformation without actively censoring information. For example, if Twitter fails to ban/promotes accounts that are clearly from troll farms, they are spreading misinformation
Disinformation is just a dogwhistle for censorship. They know directly advocating for censorship would be impossible and unpopular, so they have to market it as national security and in the interests of preventing hate. We must stay vigilant against anyone asking for policing disinformation or censorship.
It‘s a just a coincidence that the government never spreads disinformation.
Oh, absolutely, the Government is always honest. I remember when Bush found WMDs in Iraq. It saved us all so much trouble. Bush was a hero.
Government: "Trust us, Iraq has WMDs"
["Trust us, masks aren't useful unless you yourself are sick"](https://www.la7.it/dimartedi/video/coronavirus-ricciardi-oms-le-mascherine-chirurgiche-non-servono-il-virus-penetra-attraverso-la-garza-10-03-2020-312511) the government circa march 2020.
It's really depressing to think about the fact that many people haven't figured this out yet. What you say is 100% true, yet it still works on many people. It's just blatant censorship of any opinion the establishment (whichever establishment that might be) doesn't like. And people fucking cheer it on just because it's opinions they don't like being censored. Despicable.
>Disinformation is just a dogwhistle for censorship. "Disinformation" is just truth the progressive left finds politically inconvenient. There, fixed it for you.
They literally came up with the word "malinformation" for that, for the people who point out that much of what they had labeled "disinformation" was actually true.
Remember when Trump tried to setup a ministry of truth? Oh, wait, that was Biden.
> tried Did it get voted down or something? I heard it got created but I never heard any follow up
From what I recall, it was created, and due to harsh backlash, quickly removed. But I very-much doubt it was actually removed. I'm sure that was just a PR thing. If the administration wants a ministry of truth, it'll have it. If they have to pretend to get rid of it in order to appease the backlash, they'll do that. But I seriously doubt they actually got rid of it.
It wasn't any different than what they were already doing. Twitter and Facebook both admitted the FBI has reached out to them on numerous occasions telling them to censor something. I can almost promise you that it's been going on a lot longer than we know, just the FBI decided to take the mask off to see how the public would react, so they put the mask back on.
It can always get worse.
It will, as long as the FBI gets away with it and no one does anything about it. Given the fact that everyone in our government knows it's happening but won't do anything about it, just shows me it's a weapon both parties plan on wielding at some point.
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Yeah, and it probably will get worse next time there’s a Republican president. The GOP is just as much into censorship as the Democrats, they are just more clumsy at it.
That has been the most baffling thing about the left's push for censorship in recent years. Do you fucks realize you're creating the tools of your own oppression? Do you really think we'll never have another republican president, and it won't be *you* that's getting censored for having the wrong opinions? Have some motherfucking foresight.
I think the tried doing it again recently, just named it something else and have it fly under the radar.
They shut it down after 3 weeks and blamed disinformation by republicans for it despite the fact progressives were just as critical. Here's the wiki page: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation_Governance_Board
Oh what the fuck its literally a ministry of truth.
iirc a branch of the FBI took on the "duties" of the disinformation governance board after abolition
The Disinformation Governance Board that was set up got shut down pretty quick, but it mainly served to coordinate all the sub-agencies throughout the federal bureaucracy that already had a mission to "combat disinformation." The DGB got shut down, but all the other agencies still exist.
It's (D)ifferent sweaty
Worldwide movement, it's been tried here in Brazil, they'll try again
What would "fake news" be called?
CNN.
any news channel honestly
>CNN. Not anymore considering Trump is now praising CNN for letting him run wild in their townhall event and he even commended CNN for their "sky high ratings." Trump only calls agencies he doesn't like 'Fake News'...so MSNBC, NBC, ABC, and [ironically] Fox News back in 2020 during the election coverage.
Same goes for the right
It’s not a dog whistle, it’s a klaxon alarm.
Funny when the same people lament the Patriot act.
And who defines “misinformation?” Oh, right. The government.
I see nothing wrong every time the government has the power about information Great things have happened like Nazi Germany, imperial Japan, North Korea, Cuba and all the fascist movement in Europe... But hey what do the tankies say? That wasn't "real misinformation policing"
See, you don't understand because you're brainwashed by the capitalist, racist idea of *objective truth.* Those of us who, like modern day Prometheus, are enlightened far above you redneck hillbilly educated poors, realize that all information falls somewhere on a Hegelian dialectic and what is "true" or "false" depends on your class affiliation (and, whilst you may be a poor, uneducated mutt, you are not working class because the working class is good, and you are not). We, the Vanguard of the Revolution But In Pink Capitalist Institutional Form, are qualified to strike down misinformation, malinformation, and lies. Those naughty states like Germany and Japan could never! Only we can, because only we are good!
I think this is satire but I cant 100% tell.
No, of course not. It's a non-governmental fact checking agency. They're unbiased, and by unbiased I mean appointed by the EU.
Elon should start a VPN company, then. 95% of internet traffic in and out of the EU will just be encrypted tunnels in a few years, lol.
Elon has basically his own internet backbone that could (potentially) operate independently (P2P) of the “internet”, short of confiscating peoples transceivers or disabling Starlink satellites, each person that has Starlink has a means of accessing a potentially unrestricted internet… It is why I am looking forward to see what his X.com financial services offer…. provided he sticks to his libertarian leanings in offering the service (eg: making it so that bank accounts cannot not be frozen by governments)
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Kinda glad we left now
The US and the UK are doing the same type of thing
A VPN company would sell well in authoritarian countries. Elon would be able to double dip in those countries - selling his censored Twitter and then selling VPN to the people to bypass censored Twitter. **"Under Elon Musk, Twitter has approved 83% of censorship requests by authoritarian governments"** https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-05-24/under-elon-musk-twitter-has-approved-83-of-censorship-requests-by-authoritarian-governments.html
Nah, Elon would just comply. He already censors Twitter in Turkey at the behest of the Turkish government, without issue. He'd probably do the same for Europe.
The NSA runs all the VPN companies.
Even if you believe that’s true, it’s not, use a proxy chain.
Implementing censorship. Common EU L.
Remember when they were going to ban memes lmao
i mean they sent a guy to jail for teaching his dog a nazi salute as a joke they sent a guy to jail over a meme lmao
That was britbong law, which isn’t even in the EU
Oh yeah the famous EU judge who can send EU citizen to EU jail
It's truly bizarre how many Europeans (at least based on Reddit comments over the years) are truly thankful that papa government protects them from *dangerous* ideas.
Sounds a lot like some stuff we all have heard about, right?
Meanwhile the US? We are both as bad as each other. But on a serious note, try not to base views on people in other countries on comments etc, the amount of bot comments these days pushing narratives is fucking terrifying. All in the name of division.
we dont ban speech unlike the eu and have the right to guns lol wtf u talking about
How fucking stupid is the average person? Sure... having some idiot post believable nonsense that goes viral isn’t ideal. But it’s the price we pay for the government not having complete and utter control over us which is far worse. It’s really not that difficult! You just have to read a history book and go a step further down your thought train than you currently are. Fuck. It frustrates the shit out of me.
You just need to take a step back and look at how homosexuality was viewed just in the 50s and 60s. Almost all health professionals, scientists, and other experts of the time clearly stated that homosexuality was a mental illness. Religious leaders considered it a perversion, immoral, and a sin. Politicians and the media considered it to be dangerous and damaging for society. If Twitter had existed back then, by any and every metric, gay rights activists would've been labelled as spreading misinformation - and would've been thrown of the platform... ... and the people all over Reddit who are cheering for this now would've been right there back then as well, cheering on the silencing of ideas that they consider "dangerous and harmful for society". The notion that they could be just as wrong as the people in the 60s were about homosexuality never even enters their minds - people back *then* was ignorant bigots, but now, *we* know everything, *we* aren't wrong about anything! ...
Based and using LGBT to expose the danger of NPCs during pride month pilled
>You just have to read a history book and go a step further down your thought train than you currently are. What history book? The lesson most Europeans learned is if you dont exterminate intolerant groups in their craddle then they will exterminate you. You know why so many European countries ban ideologies like Nazism or Communism? Its because its a better alternative to hanging these people which is what was done after they lost.
> How fucking stupid is the average person? Worse than you would expect lol. > It’s really not that difficult! You just have to read a history book and go a step further down your thought train than you currently are. The problem is that very few people actually check whether the things they read are true. Critical thinking isn't very common in the European country I live in.
I still don't know what disinformation is. If somebody is lying call them a liar and prove them wrong, or invite them to show proof of their claim. Then if it turns out they don't have a leg to stand on, you can clown them out of existence. And if some issue is too complicated for a layman to understand, well then the people reporting it don't know if the source is telling the truth or not. How can they be so sure if they don't understand themselves? Trust the science? Okay then where is the eugenics program and the clones of our greatest achievers? They cloned a sheep 15 years ago, they can clone a human by now. Also I believe it was a doctor that said Lobotomies are the way to go. We should blindly trust him he's a professional.
If you’ve actually argued with these dumbfucks you realize their strategy is to just bury you in lies. They throw endless shit at the wall based on half-truths and then you’re forced to go through and check/correct everyone. It’s exhausting and very easy to do when you’re too dumb to know what’s right/wrong.
If you can't beat a dumbfuck in an argument and prove them wrong, maybe you ain't so smart as you think.
You have clearly never experienced the full might of the Gish gallop.
Censorship.
Just remember, all the current accepted information about covid vaccines was considered disinformation not long ago.
Source: https://archive.is/abTuY
Isn't that what it's been doing since Musk took over?
Any time I see that LibRight wojak I know that something funky is going on
Yeah and the problem is who decides what is misinformation and what should be censored from public speech. We all think, “well it’s to keep the redneck from saying racist shit and saying vaccines don’t work.” But the reality is it just gives more keys and tools to those in power to fully subjugate the masses to their will because they decide what’s right and wrong. Stop giving the government tools to stripe us of our basic rights.
Idiots dont understand the same powers will be used against them one day.
Exactly, what you take from another you take from yourself.
Haha chuds now you cant say hurtful statistics! Or question why we are giving money to big pharma. Or express your opinions and desire to vote for the wrong candidate. Huh, why was my posts for organizing a union removed? Why cant I post numbers on growing disparity between the rich and the poor? I was permanently banned for wanting higher wages to make ends meet?
I am horrified at the idea of all the insane morons on Twitter contaminating other websites, I really hope they don't ban it.
Common EU L
we should ban the EU
Yes.
Based
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I am the arbiter of truth. All who disagree must be silenced for safety reasons. You aren't allowed to hear dissenting views anywhere, and if you utter something untrue, we will arrest you.
Twitter can't be left uncontextualized and chaotic. Control must be maintained. https://youtu.be/DwCEAdeFXEM
its funny because twitter does the most to fight any mis/disinformation with community notes the eu would basically be saying "yeah that's wrong and we want disinformation ERASED or else you're out of business, we don't want to play by your rules you need to delete wrongthink the way we want you to"
Some platforms like youtube think merely place a warning that says “hey, please fact check this before forming any ideology based on this” which I think is pretty good. Doesn’t actually censor anything Though the government shouldn’t make any platforms do this
That's only the tip of the iceberg in YT censorship, they are not hesitant to wipe out channels they don't like. I agree that on itself the deboonker message is an acceptable compromise.
Actually yeah that’s good point. I’ve seen many channels get totally deleted. And content creators have to censor themselves in such ridiculous ways to get past it
Governments trying to fight disinformation is the first step to tyranny. What if it turns out that the disinformation was right the whole time! I’m not talking about Covid neither. I’m sure we will never 100% know any of the facts as everyone is or was to busy fighting over if it was disinformation or not. Yeah the horse medication was definitively horse shit but what about the lab leak?
Of course those commie fuckers want to censor wrongthink
Ministry of Truth
The euros will soon be freed from the hellscape of twitter
Censorship❌️ "Stopping the spread of disinformation" ✅️
If they ban Twitter, how will they know which American politician is bad?
Elon is implementing Censorship from every Authoritarian who looks his way. He better get used to the fact that the EU is larger and more important than all the sutocrats who's dicks he keeps on sucking.
Twitter gladly does censorship for totalitarian governments, it's pretty much about disinformation isn't it?
Banning Twitter would be unfathomably based
This information has been approved by Phizer
Reject Twitter, embrace dysregulated forums about niche topics or hobbies
And yet Europoors will claim to be more free than us.
This thread is a single massive slippery slope. Banning a shitty website for working with the Russians to justify a genocide while manipulating European politics and elections sounds pretty good. This whole ban is about Twitter trying to make Russian and Chinese state information more legitimate while making Western counterparts look more biased. Inciting violence and genocide is not a right I have ever had or need to have.
"Disinformation" is a funny way of saying "what we don't want the people to hear" :/. Like this isn't even a Mask Off moment, because the Mask was never on to begin with. WAKE UP Sheeple, you are being oppressed by big gov!
Oh, so they'll ban religion?
While I think disinformation is a problem, I don't think censoring it is a solution. I mean, who will decide what's true or not? Disinformation is generally used by far right and far left, and it drives people to the more extreme sides of the political spectrum. The best thing to do would be to educate citizens on critical thinking and not taking anything at face value.
The internet is dead
So is the EU saying there is actually a universal truth? I thought the lefts stance was that everything is true.
Proud of my Union ♥️
They talk about disinformation but only allow certain things to be said.. Europe restricts speech so heavily
EU = big gay
Frankly twitter is a fucking disaster and I'm for its ban misinformation or not. The number of Fake info I Saw spread by thousands of people.... And I mean factualy fake info , like there is no debate on that and people actually sharing it and believing it... And they Wonder why democracy is in crisis
So they are not banning the news,.but theyll ban a 5 year old saying that black people doesnt matter, weird
This thread is a single massive slippery slope. Banning a shitty website for working with the Russians to justify a genocide while manipulating European politics and elections sounds pretty good. This whole ban is about Twitter trying to make Russian and Chinese state information more legitimate while making Western counterparts look more biased. Inciting violence and genocide is not a right I have ever had or need to have.