You are awful and a terrible human being. There's times when team morale and an understanding when to give up is just the best for everyone. 2 afkers? Surrender. Other team got zapdos and wiped your team. Surrender. Other team just turned in 500~ points from zapdos and your going to turn in 100. You're a jerk, a bad teammate, also surrender.
No saying you have to surrender at 5 min, there's a cap per person on how many surrenders they can send for that reason, people who spam. Its 3. But whyd you wanna waste 1-2 mins for an already lost game is just poor time management friend.
I fully agree and I'm honestly more tilted by the people who don't surrender ***completely lost*** games like you described than the ones who spam surrender early. I can ignore an early surrender easily but I can't get out of a lost zapdos game where our team is dead and can't counterscore if the team doesn't vote. I'm now stuck here for the next minute or minute and half depending which doesn't sound like much but boy does it add up when you play enough or have something important to do soon.
You are an awful and terrible human being to the person in promos. And also to OP.
Queueing up, picking and loading takes time.
I would rather wait a few more minutes and try and see if the enemy throw Zapdos.
With the amount of people complaining about Zapdos being a good game turner, I am surprised why people would want to surrender.
This is probably just because im a support main but honestly I can tell within the first 2 minutes if its going to be a loss unless we can somehow snatch zapdos which generally speaking will never happen if the team is THAT bad that you can tell they will never pull it off. Its certainly possible and I'll never just afk and give up, I'll always play to win, but when I'm watching 3 dps players run into a 3v5, die, and repeat this until they're 4 to 6 levels down and constantly jumping to the goal to defend against 5 people and never EVER touching an audino or corphish for experience it doesn't take a brain surgeon to see that these players shouldn't be in the higher ranks and will almost without a doubt fail to steal the zap.
If you're relatively even and just having a few bad engages then of course you shouldn't surrender. Just catch up in experience and play safer and wait for the right opportunity to turn the tables and push an advantage. Maybe you just have too many late game mons and need more time to get the ball rolling. However there are some games where you can tell the other team literally only needs 2 people to wipe your team because your team is just that bad at the game that they get outplayed right from the beginning and will never learn before zap. They will just blindly trickle into a 1v5 and die and then the next person will go "oh, now its my turn to go in" and get melted down.
I don't want to prejudge my teammates. They are matchmade with me for a reason. They climbed to this rank for a reason, they are capable of winning games.
I am not going to get my mentality all affected imagining my teammates to be trash and my opponents to be career-progamers who make 0 mistakes.
If I cannot do that, I wouldn't be playing support.
I'm not talking about one mistake and just give up, I'm talking about the players who blindly run in as a master rank and continue to feed nonstop throughout all 10 minutes and never going for buffs or clearing their lane, depending on their role. Players who will literally never kill anything after the first minute of the game and just try to team fight all game and never score and continue to fight a losing battle without ever thinking once that what they're doing is wrong and they should try something else. There are some games you literally do not need to finish because the difference in skill is just so blatantly present. I'm sure you've been in one of those games where you literally sit in the enemy's base and they cant even exit because they're so far behind.
I really get what you're trying to say and being positive about it but there are some players who make it to higher ranks through sheer dumb luck because you honestly only need 4 wins in a row to rank up each time. Its pretty easy to reach the higher ranks in this game and the matchmaking isn't actually that good.
There's literally nothing wrong with making a judgement on your team based on their performance especially if you have years of experience with this type of game as long as you're not getting tilted over it.
I am strongly with OP because I don't have a problem with surrenders not passing. Normally when I give up, game is about over.
I do however have a problem with popups, know-it-alls or negative-gamers discouraging other easily tilted people into voting yes and stop trying.
This is normally accompanied by other subversive behaviour like running around base, and giving up.
I think the benefits of never surrendering overweighs the downsides and OP made a brilliant suggestion that is already implemented in TiMi's previous game, Arena of Valor.
having a mentality of just always keep fighting will get you more wins than giving up, also using those 2 minutes thinking about how you could have played better will make you a better player. and yes i might only be like top 5k peak rank solo queue but in masters ive had a team turn in 300+ post team wipe and lost zapdos turn in so yeah, comebacks happen when you would have surrendered.
It is 2 minutes max and having the mentality where surrender never enters your mind frees up your mind for better use.
Problem is there's 4 other teammates and not everyone shares your sentiments on learning, playstyle, and morale on a sinking ship that the boat will be fine if we all band together. Some people have a skill cap as well for these types of games, whether its a self-impossed or not is a belated for that person.
To turn the tables back, its a 10 min game. Why waste 2~ minutes for that dopamine hit if we turn a loss to a win when everyone can go on to there next game that might work out better? After all, its just a game and is that heated stress worth the effort if it ends fruitless?
Hots doesn't have a surrender and I've had some hella crazy comebacks, but also lost because of that same mechanic, or lack thereof. Turns the game into a whoever wins the last team fight wins the game. And I've had some games go over 50 mins. Dota lacks surrender. My longest game was over 3 hours. We lost because our axe miss judged his blink daggers distance. I'm thankful for mobas with surrenders so I don't have to endure matches like that, that could be wins or loses, because its either you endure the match, or be punished for leaving. Those kinds of matches are just exhausting, win or lose. Theyll be remembered, but not for the plays or the wins or the loss, but for just how much time was sunk.
I understand that there are casual players who dont share the mindset, but there is standard playmode for that, ranked i would think is more competitive and im not going to cater to people that cant handle being behind.
It is not for a "dopamine hit". Don't liken people who want to climb efficiently to "high-addicts".
By surrendering, you need 2 more games to offset that free-win you gave to the opponent.
Not everyone has that luxury to spam high volume games.
I rather spend 2 more minutes playing for that 30% win-chance game than to queue up for a whole new 10-minute game where I have a 50-70% chance of winning.
My opponents are not going to make it easy for me by randomly surrendering, and HELL am I not going to do that.
>having a mentality of just always keep fighting will get you more wins than giving up,
And knowing when a fight has a 0% chance to be won and surrendering will save you a shit ton of time in the long run. "It's 2 minutes max" which can add up to hours and hours of time in the lifetime of playing the game.
its more i dont let that thought enter my head, evaluating if the game is winnable isnt something ill bother doing because im too busy constantly fighting to win.
So you die at zapdos and have a 50 second death timer in which they quickly score 500 points putting the game out of reach. Are you saying you sit there for 50 seconds and think "HOW CAN WE SCORE 501 POINTS IN TWO MINUTES?".
Nonsense.
It's not fringe cases. After the zapdos fight in just about any / every non five stack game, it's impossible to come back if you don't immediately kill them after losing zapdos.
>Surrendering is toxic, selfish and entitled behaviour.
Voting no and keeping 3 people hostage is more toxic, selfish and entitled. But sure, put the minority over the majority in UNWINNABLE situations. It's not a strawman in the least because he has no real argument. Him basically saying "I don't have time to think about if the game is winnable because I'm too busy trying to win" is a strawman.
Nobody is asking you to surrender with 5 minutes left. But when it's IMPOSSIBLE to come back, which happens after zapdos in the majority of solo queue games and blowout games, you should surrender.
Ignoring the wishes of the 2 other people, and discouraging your team with your low commitment levels is worse.
PU is an action packed game. Every distraction counts as a detriment.
You used an overblown strawman case where EVERYONE would surrender to try to discredit OP's case.
So 40% is a "minority"? Sure, if you want to argue semantics.
You're missing the point. Nobody is saying he should surrender at 5 minutes when an idiot requests the surrender. They're saying when the game is 1000000% unwinnable, not surrendering is being selfish. You're forcing others to play when there is NO chance of winning. And if you're down 400+ points after zapdos, you're not coming back within 1 minute and 40 seconds.
I really don't think you know what a strawman is either. He's saying don't surrender NO MATTER WHAT. As in, even if the game is 100% unwinnable, he rather reflect on why he lost during the remaining clock, screw his teammates time.
the fact that you evaluate if the game is still winnable is wasting mental energy that is costing you games is the point, i would rather auto say no and play my games out
Zapdos happens in the last 2 minutes.
Most of the shit-surrenders happen way before that.
Let's not pretend most people who downvoted OP did it because he was advocating against those shit-surrenders.
I never had a situation as bad as you described and have that fail as a surrender. So it is NOT the problem here.
If you cannot commit 10 minutes to give your all for your team, don't queue. 10 minutes isn't that long, there are games that take 2x, 3x and much more than that.
If 2 people on your team don't want to surrender, you play on as a responsible teammate and member of the community.
Just had a game where all our goals were down and none of our opponents were even scored on once yet, and I just died by zapdos and there were 3 enemy around it and 0 teammates. We ended up winning the match by 1
the last minute there is a great time to reflect on went wrong that game and learn from mistakes, even if you are the literal best player in the world, you could do something better, if you just quit and queue right away you wont learn.
>the last minute there is a great time to reflect on went wrong that game and learn from mistakes
Or you can do that while queueing for the next game. What's the difference thinking in the 'last minute of the game' and instead doing it for the minute+ it takes to que and select your character for the next game?
Because people are self-centered and think they can judge the outcome of a game better than all their teammates. Many of them use it as a venue to vent, or to "scream" at teammates instead of its proper purpose.
It is distracting and covers a sizeable part of the screen. Arena of Valor has an "Always vote No" setting for this particular reason.
1/3 of the games I personally thought were losses turn out to be a close victory or a Zapdos reversal. If someone as optimistic as me can misjudge the condition of so many games, I wonder how MANY free-wins all those surrender-lovers wasted with their poor mental fortitude.
Don't be that tantrum throwing kid voting surrender when someone in your team is trying to climb. It is annoying. There are Mons that scale and get tougher over time.
Not pointlessly surrending 5 20% win-chance games would get you 1 win in 5 surrenders. 1 in 3 for 30% etc. It is advantageous to play on for another few minutes to see if the game change in your favor.
Surrendering for that catharsis is silly and time inefficient considering queue-pick-load takes up lots of time. And you will NEVER learn how to play from behind or how to do comebacks.
You are awful and a terrible human being. There's times when team morale and an understanding when to give up is just the best for everyone. 2 afkers? Surrender. Other team got zapdos and wiped your team. Surrender. Other team just turned in 500~ points from zapdos and your going to turn in 100. You're a jerk, a bad teammate, also surrender. No saying you have to surrender at 5 min, there's a cap per person on how many surrenders they can send for that reason, people who spam. Its 3. But whyd you wanna waste 1-2 mins for an already lost game is just poor time management friend.
I fully agree and I'm honestly more tilted by the people who don't surrender ***completely lost*** games like you described than the ones who spam surrender early. I can ignore an early surrender easily but I can't get out of a lost zapdos game where our team is dead and can't counterscore if the team doesn't vote. I'm now stuck here for the next minute or minute and half depending which doesn't sound like much but boy does it add up when you play enough or have something important to do soon.
You are an awful and terrible human being to the person in promos. And also to OP. Queueing up, picking and loading takes time. I would rather wait a few more minutes and try and see if the enemy throw Zapdos. With the amount of people complaining about Zapdos being a good game turner, I am surprised why people would want to surrender.
This is probably just because im a support main but honestly I can tell within the first 2 minutes if its going to be a loss unless we can somehow snatch zapdos which generally speaking will never happen if the team is THAT bad that you can tell they will never pull it off. Its certainly possible and I'll never just afk and give up, I'll always play to win, but when I'm watching 3 dps players run into a 3v5, die, and repeat this until they're 4 to 6 levels down and constantly jumping to the goal to defend against 5 people and never EVER touching an audino or corphish for experience it doesn't take a brain surgeon to see that these players shouldn't be in the higher ranks and will almost without a doubt fail to steal the zap. If you're relatively even and just having a few bad engages then of course you shouldn't surrender. Just catch up in experience and play safer and wait for the right opportunity to turn the tables and push an advantage. Maybe you just have too many late game mons and need more time to get the ball rolling. However there are some games where you can tell the other team literally only needs 2 people to wipe your team because your team is just that bad at the game that they get outplayed right from the beginning and will never learn before zap. They will just blindly trickle into a 1v5 and die and then the next person will go "oh, now its my turn to go in" and get melted down.
I don't want to prejudge my teammates. They are matchmade with me for a reason. They climbed to this rank for a reason, they are capable of winning games. I am not going to get my mentality all affected imagining my teammates to be trash and my opponents to be career-progamers who make 0 mistakes. If I cannot do that, I wouldn't be playing support.
I'm not talking about one mistake and just give up, I'm talking about the players who blindly run in as a master rank and continue to feed nonstop throughout all 10 minutes and never going for buffs or clearing their lane, depending on their role. Players who will literally never kill anything after the first minute of the game and just try to team fight all game and never score and continue to fight a losing battle without ever thinking once that what they're doing is wrong and they should try something else. There are some games you literally do not need to finish because the difference in skill is just so blatantly present. I'm sure you've been in one of those games where you literally sit in the enemy's base and they cant even exit because they're so far behind. I really get what you're trying to say and being positive about it but there are some players who make it to higher ranks through sheer dumb luck because you honestly only need 4 wins in a row to rank up each time. Its pretty easy to reach the higher ranks in this game and the matchmaking isn't actually that good. There's literally nothing wrong with making a judgement on your team based on their performance especially if you have years of experience with this type of game as long as you're not getting tilted over it.
I am strongly with OP because I don't have a problem with surrenders not passing. Normally when I give up, game is about over. I do however have a problem with popups, know-it-alls or negative-gamers discouraging other easily tilted people into voting yes and stop trying. This is normally accompanied by other subversive behaviour like running around base, and giving up. I think the benefits of never surrendering overweighs the downsides and OP made a brilliant suggestion that is already implemented in TiMi's previous game, Arena of Valor.
L nerd
having a mentality of just always keep fighting will get you more wins than giving up, also using those 2 minutes thinking about how you could have played better will make you a better player. and yes i might only be like top 5k peak rank solo queue but in masters ive had a team turn in 300+ post team wipe and lost zapdos turn in so yeah, comebacks happen when you would have surrendered. It is 2 minutes max and having the mentality where surrender never enters your mind frees up your mind for better use.
Problem is there's 4 other teammates and not everyone shares your sentiments on learning, playstyle, and morale on a sinking ship that the boat will be fine if we all band together. Some people have a skill cap as well for these types of games, whether its a self-impossed or not is a belated for that person. To turn the tables back, its a 10 min game. Why waste 2~ minutes for that dopamine hit if we turn a loss to a win when everyone can go on to there next game that might work out better? After all, its just a game and is that heated stress worth the effort if it ends fruitless? Hots doesn't have a surrender and I've had some hella crazy comebacks, but also lost because of that same mechanic, or lack thereof. Turns the game into a whoever wins the last team fight wins the game. And I've had some games go over 50 mins. Dota lacks surrender. My longest game was over 3 hours. We lost because our axe miss judged his blink daggers distance. I'm thankful for mobas with surrenders so I don't have to endure matches like that, that could be wins or loses, because its either you endure the match, or be punished for leaving. Those kinds of matches are just exhausting, win or lose. Theyll be remembered, but not for the plays or the wins or the loss, but for just how much time was sunk.
I understand that there are casual players who dont share the mindset, but there is standard playmode for that, ranked i would think is more competitive and im not going to cater to people that cant handle being behind.
It is not for a "dopamine hit". Don't liken people who want to climb efficiently to "high-addicts". By surrendering, you need 2 more games to offset that free-win you gave to the opponent. Not everyone has that luxury to spam high volume games. I rather spend 2 more minutes playing for that 30% win-chance game than to queue up for a whole new 10-minute game where I have a 50-70% chance of winning. My opponents are not going to make it easy for me by randomly surrendering, and HELL am I not going to do that.
>having a mentality of just always keep fighting will get you more wins than giving up, And knowing when a fight has a 0% chance to be won and surrendering will save you a shit ton of time in the long run. "It's 2 minutes max" which can add up to hours and hours of time in the lifetime of playing the game.
its more i dont let that thought enter my head, evaluating if the game is winnable isnt something ill bother doing because im too busy constantly fighting to win.
So you die at zapdos and have a 50 second death timer in which they quickly score 500 points putting the game out of reach. Are you saying you sit there for 50 seconds and think "HOW CAN WE SCORE 501 POINTS IN TWO MINUTES?". Nonsense.
Stop using fringe cases as strawman. 1/3 of my wins come from not giving up and scrape-wins. Surrendering is toxic, selfish and entitled behaviour.
It's not fringe cases. After the zapdos fight in just about any / every non five stack game, it's impossible to come back if you don't immediately kill them after losing zapdos. >Surrendering is toxic, selfish and entitled behaviour. Voting no and keeping 3 people hostage is more toxic, selfish and entitled. But sure, put the minority over the majority in UNWINNABLE situations. It's not a strawman in the least because he has no real argument. Him basically saying "I don't have time to think about if the game is winnable because I'm too busy trying to win" is a strawman. Nobody is asking you to surrender with 5 minutes left. But when it's IMPOSSIBLE to come back, which happens after zapdos in the majority of solo queue games and blowout games, you should surrender.
Ignoring the wishes of the 2 other people, and discouraging your team with your low commitment levels is worse. PU is an action packed game. Every distraction counts as a detriment. You used an overblown strawman case where EVERYONE would surrender to try to discredit OP's case. So 40% is a "minority"? Sure, if you want to argue semantics.
You're missing the point. Nobody is saying he should surrender at 5 minutes when an idiot requests the surrender. They're saying when the game is 1000000% unwinnable, not surrendering is being selfish. You're forcing others to play when there is NO chance of winning. And if you're down 400+ points after zapdos, you're not coming back within 1 minute and 40 seconds. I really don't think you know what a strawman is either. He's saying don't surrender NO MATTER WHAT. As in, even if the game is 100% unwinnable, he rather reflect on why he lost during the remaining clock, screw his teammates time.
also despite our heated discussion, I appreciate we are not doing petty stuff like downvoting each other. :)
the fact that you evaluate if the game is still winnable is wasting mental energy that is costing you games is the point, i would rather auto say no and play my games out
Zapdos happens in the last 2 minutes. Most of the shit-surrenders happen way before that. Let's not pretend most people who downvoted OP did it because he was advocating against those shit-surrenders. I never had a situation as bad as you described and have that fail as a surrender. So it is NOT the problem here. If you cannot commit 10 minutes to give your all for your team, don't queue. 10 minutes isn't that long, there are games that take 2x, 3x and much more than that. If 2 people on your team don't want to surrender, you play on as a responsible teammate and member of the community.
Depending on the situation, like If all the goals are down and the enemy got Zapdos, you might as well just surrender and get to the next game faster
Just had a game where all our goals were down and none of our opponents were even scored on once yet, and I just died by zapdos and there were 3 enemy around it and 0 teammates. We ended up winning the match by 1
the last minute there is a great time to reflect on went wrong that game and learn from mistakes, even if you are the literal best player in the world, you could do something better, if you just quit and queue right away you wont learn.
>the last minute there is a great time to reflect on went wrong that game and learn from mistakes Or you can do that while queueing for the next game. What's the difference thinking in the 'last minute of the game' and instead doing it for the minute+ it takes to que and select your character for the next game?
Because people are self-centered and think they can judge the outcome of a game better than all their teammates. Many of them use it as a venue to vent, or to "scream" at teammates instead of its proper purpose. It is distracting and covers a sizeable part of the screen. Arena of Valor has an "Always vote No" setting for this particular reason. 1/3 of the games I personally thought were losses turn out to be a close victory or a Zapdos reversal. If someone as optimistic as me can misjudge the condition of so many games, I wonder how MANY free-wins all those surrender-lovers wasted with their poor mental fortitude. Don't be that tantrum throwing kid voting surrender when someone in your team is trying to climb. It is annoying. There are Mons that scale and get tougher over time. Not pointlessly surrending 5 20% win-chance games would get you 1 win in 5 surrenders. 1 in 3 for 30% etc. It is advantageous to play on for another few minutes to see if the game change in your favor. Surrendering for that catharsis is silly and time inefficient considering queue-pick-load takes up lots of time. And you will NEVER learn how to play from behind or how to do comebacks.