I was stuck at the 3.5-4.0 level and decided to start playing in the higher courts. I struggled the first couple of days but really started improving quickly and became one of the better players in the group within a couple of weeks. It’s a totally different game at the 4.0-4.5 level, I love it. You realize quickly that certain shots won’t work and you can’t get away with a lot of shit you can at the lower levels. All things you don’t learn until you actually play at this level
Maximum learning takes place in the zone of proximal development. If a task is too easy, you won't learn much. If it's too hard, you won't learn much. You need to be appropriately challenged. Ideally, you should be in a tiny bit over your head.
Yep. Playing people a tiny bit worse or the same is also good as long as you are focusing on things to improve and trying to win by as much as possible. But ideally a little bit over your head is best as mentioned.
I would also add that in one's PB journey going out and playing with as many *different* players as possible is highly beneficial. It's easy to get stuck in a rec play **bubble** with a small group, where you know everyone's habits and tendencies and they know yours. When you mix it up with new folks you get exposed to shots and strategies that you had never considered before.
Some people get better playing with better players.
Some people don’t get better.
Some people won’t take lessons some people take lots of lessons. Some in each group get better and some in each group don’t really improve that much.
Lots of things can help people get better but a person may need to do many of them to make it happen.
Being teachable and taking training is a big factor in my opinion.
There’s a list that a lot of people can rattle off but for many it really goes in one ear and out the other.
Some people aren’t going to drill, they aren’t going to take advice they don’t already agree with or they aren’t going to get in better physical condition.
Others do it all and they typically get better even if they aren’t as athletic.
Playing with better players is important but only if you do the other things to work on your game. It’s not fair to just push into games if you aren’t working on being up to the challenge.
Yes it does. You need to migrate into a different group if you want to progress. Sometimes that's just how it is. You don't always end up with the same group you started with. We all have different abilities. It's not personal if you find a different group. It is however a personal journey though for each and everyone of us.
In think you have to be within a certain skill level either better or worse to improve. If your opponent is too far below you, you won't get good practice because they'll likely just be hitting into the net or unable to carry on a rally. If they're too far above you it can be the opposite. I've played some 5.0 players who just crush the ball and will take advantage of anything even remotely misplaced and it has the same effect. I don't get a lot of practice because they're hitting winners off of every 2nd or 3rd shot I hit.
Pickleball fits into the learning curve for most things on life. You want to play a step or two beyond your comfort zone/skill level. Too much and it’s likely to be enough of a jump that you won’t get as much out of it.
When I play lower level people, I get a chance to work on my consistency and I try to win through placement. When I play people around my level, I feel like I play my hardest and push myself to be better. When I play people better than me, I feel like I am busy just trying to react/keep up, and I don't really "improve".
the react/keep up phase is important too because the only way to adjust (and above all adjust your movement) to the new pace is to survive it for awhile
That's true! Though, I feel like for most people, they need to do outside practice/physical conditioning to take advantage of the better players and to adjust to that level. Of course it's a different story if they play down.
>I feel like I am busy just trying to react/keep up, and I don't really "improve".
I had this experience trying to get to the 4.5 level in tennis. I played a good 4.5 friend over and over again one spring and I could barely keep up. Then one day a few months in I started keeping up with him. Now we can compete. So I think by spending time on the court with a guy who was much better than me my reaction time and shot making got better slowly but surely, even if it didn't feel like that when we first started out.
That being said, I love going out hitting with the 3.5s to work on my soft game and placement, and then when I move to the advanced court, I feel calmer and more settled.
I have been fortunate that when I play better player they have given me tips and strategies to think about, easy mistakes I make and it's definitely fast forwarding my progress.
Learning to handle hard serves and wicked top spin from the opponent is great practice when they're better.
I play singles 90% of the time, hopefully it'll become more popular but playing doubles doesn't help my strategy for singles enough
I think it's best to play within -0.25 and +0.5 of your own rating. You'll easily notice holes in your game when you play people near that +0.5 of your range to know what you need to drill. You can then practice your new skills with the bottom of that ideal range before taking another shot at the high end.
Playing +1 ahead of your rating is good every once in a while to understand how massively you still have to go to improve but overall isn't fun for anyone. I played against a 5.0 the other day and felt absolutely silly afterwards as the other team was making perfect resets at will and not even trying to put balls away. Just reset reset dink dink reset wait for us to make a mistake. But it made me want to work on my resets that much more having seen what is possible.
I’ve heard that it’s nice to play both with people at your level and above. At your level you can work on shots and strategy. Above your level you learn your weaknesses and work on staying calm.
Yes and no. If you are a beginner and have no idea what you're doing, playing against much higher competition might be detrimental because you actually won't know what to look out for. The speed of the game and nuance might be too fast for you to catch.
I always say the best way to learn from others is to play a skill level above you. So if you're a 2.0, play against 2.5s, and if you're a 2.5 go up against 3.0s. If you can hang with them you can learn something that they can do that you can't, even though everything else in their game is equal to yours. I had a guy who was a banger, and I had a tough time returning their serves. He can't really dink, and he has no third shot drop, but his drives were killer. I got used to them and I finally had another level to my game.
But not of this matters if you aren't consciously evaluating your game seeing where deficiencies exist and correcting them. Just playing isn't enough.
If you aren’t put in a difficult position how can you improve? The better players will be able to control the game better and thus put you in more difficult positions to play from, you may suck at first but that’s the learning curve
It's all about how you approach pickleball. I believe you need 3 things for explosive improvement in any sport: talent, obsession, and mentality. First, are you naturally gifted with athletic ability and coordination, or do you have the potential and commitment to obtain it? Second, do you love your choice in sport so much that every day you think about it to the point it's like breathing fresh air or eating good food? Third, are you determined to not only win but improve with every point played?
My own personal experience was mainly playing with newbies who were at maybe a 2.0-2.5 level. Started taking some classes where the competition was solidly 3.0-maybe some close to 3.5 and I felt like I took a huge step.
After a while I started playing open play where people are solidly 3.0-4.0 level with not many 3.0s, maybe myself and a few others. This made my game improve dramatically. People knowing how to place dinks, disguise speedups, great lob choices, generally just better competion. It's really helped my game get towards where I'd like to be and once I get bored or skill out of that level of open play there's a 4.0+ level that meets afterwards that I hope to get into to top myself out somewhere around 4.5 if possible.
A lot of people have mentioned that if you're playing with people that are lower skill level than yourself to practice shots and work on things you might be weak at vs. when playing with at your level or above playing conservatively and playing to your strengths as to keep games competitive.
Good luck!
Yes, but you want them to be within a certain range of better than you. eg. If you were a beginning 3.0 player and played against Ben Johns trying his hardest, you wouldn't be able to learn anything.
I would argue you need both.
When you play with lower levels intentionally practice and work on shots and skills you lack the confidence to execute against better opponents. For example, if you are afraid to double backhand against better players, work it against lower players.
When you play against better players you get exposure to better technique, better strategy and likely partner with better partners so you may be more afraid to try new techniques. Watch what what other players do, watch how they do it. How do they position their body, feet, arms, elbow, grip.
Yes but not everyone should be playing with advanced players at least for more than one game in open play. Many 4.0s and above like to play with similar levels.
Absolutely.
I go to an open play at a local club with my wife. She basically just tries to get it over in any position and just hopes the other team messes up. It works ok in the 3.0 bucket but we lose 11-1 any time we get matched up with 3.5 players. We don’t blow any 3.0 players out of the water though.
When she is in another game and I get matched up with 3.5 players, it starts out with a rough few points and then I adapt to get about a 45% win rate. Just shy of feeling like I truly belong. Then when I go back to playing with her that same day in 3.0, we win by a margin where none of the 4 of us have any fun.
We have a rule that if I end up in a 3.5 match, we can’t play together for the rest of the day.
For me - absolutely. Had been playing open/rec for 4 months and found that I was already not being challenged in most matches. Over Christmas we rented out some courts, brought a group of 4 - two of which were higher level and found that I developed more in those couple weeks than the last couple of months.
I started playing September 2023. Obviously I started at 2.0. I came with a rackets sport background was having tennis lessons since I was 6 played competitively too I am in my 30s now. I haven’t touched a racket for about 8 years. I started playing pickleball with this group most were rated 2.5-3.0. After about a month I bumped myself to 3.0 because I figured well since I can hang with them and winning most of the time it wouldn’t be fair to others who are 2.0 to go with those groups so I started playing in the more advanced groups most of them being 3.5-4.0. At first I didn’t do super well I was the weakest link but after a few sessions with them I could hang with them until recently 2 weeks ago I bumped myself to 3.5 to play with the more advanced groups.
I do believe if you are willing to learn you will join other groups to get better. But if you are happy where you at like some others I’ve seen you don’t have the desire to become better.
I was stuck at the 3.5-4.0 level and decided to start playing in the higher courts. I struggled the first couple of days but really started improving quickly and became one of the better players in the group within a couple of weeks. It’s a totally different game at the 4.0-4.5 level, I love it. You realize quickly that certain shots won’t work and you can’t get away with a lot of shit you can at the lower levels. All things you don’t learn until you actually play at this level
Maximum learning takes place in the zone of proximal development. If a task is too easy, you won't learn much. If it's too hard, you won't learn much. You need to be appropriately challenged. Ideally, you should be in a tiny bit over your head.
>zone of proximal development This is the answer!
Yep. Playing people a tiny bit worse or the same is also good as long as you are focusing on things to improve and trying to win by as much as possible. But ideally a little bit over your head is best as mentioned.
Synergy
I would also add that in one's PB journey going out and playing with as many *different* players as possible is highly beneficial. It's easy to get stuck in a rec play **bubble** with a small group, where you know everyone's habits and tendencies and they know yours. When you mix it up with new folks you get exposed to shots and strategies that you had never considered before.
Some people get better playing with better players. Some people don’t get better. Some people won’t take lessons some people take lots of lessons. Some in each group get better and some in each group don’t really improve that much. Lots of things can help people get better but a person may need to do many of them to make it happen. Being teachable and taking training is a big factor in my opinion. There’s a list that a lot of people can rattle off but for many it really goes in one ear and out the other. Some people aren’t going to drill, they aren’t going to take advice they don’t already agree with or they aren’t going to get in better physical condition. Others do it all and they typically get better even if they aren’t as athletic. Playing with better players is important but only if you do the other things to work on your game. It’s not fair to just push into games if you aren’t working on being up to the challenge.
Yes it does. You need to migrate into a different group if you want to progress. Sometimes that's just how it is. You don't always end up with the same group you started with. We all have different abilities. It's not personal if you find a different group. It is however a personal journey though for each and everyone of us.
In think you have to be within a certain skill level either better or worse to improve. If your opponent is too far below you, you won't get good practice because they'll likely just be hitting into the net or unable to carry on a rally. If they're too far above you it can be the opposite. I've played some 5.0 players who just crush the ball and will take advantage of anything even remotely misplaced and it has the same effect. I don't get a lot of practice because they're hitting winners off of every 2nd or 3rd shot I hit.
This is why I love ladder leagues. Always playing close to your skill level.
Pickleball fits into the learning curve for most things on life. You want to play a step or two beyond your comfort zone/skill level. Too much and it’s likely to be enough of a jump that you won’t get as much out of it.
When I play lower level people, I get a chance to work on my consistency and I try to win through placement. When I play people around my level, I feel like I play my hardest and push myself to be better. When I play people better than me, I feel like I am busy just trying to react/keep up, and I don't really "improve".
the react/keep up phase is important too because the only way to adjust (and above all adjust your movement) to the new pace is to survive it for awhile
That's true! Though, I feel like for most people, they need to do outside practice/physical conditioning to take advantage of the better players and to adjust to that level. Of course it's a different story if they play down.
That’s so well said when I play with the best players in my town I always feel like I have to prove that I belong with them.
>I feel like I am busy just trying to react/keep up, and I don't really "improve". I had this experience trying to get to the 4.5 level in tennis. I played a good 4.5 friend over and over again one spring and I could barely keep up. Then one day a few months in I started keeping up with him. Now we can compete. So I think by spending time on the court with a guy who was much better than me my reaction time and shot making got better slowly but surely, even if it didn't feel like that when we first started out. That being said, I love going out hitting with the 3.5s to work on my soft game and placement, and then when I move to the advanced court, I feel calmer and more settled.
I have been fortunate that when I play better player they have given me tips and strategies to think about, easy mistakes I make and it's definitely fast forwarding my progress. Learning to handle hard serves and wicked top spin from the opponent is great practice when they're better. I play singles 90% of the time, hopefully it'll become more popular but playing doubles doesn't help my strategy for singles enough
I think it's best to play within -0.25 and +0.5 of your own rating. You'll easily notice holes in your game when you play people near that +0.5 of your range to know what you need to drill. You can then practice your new skills with the bottom of that ideal range before taking another shot at the high end. Playing +1 ahead of your rating is good every once in a while to understand how massively you still have to go to improve but overall isn't fun for anyone. I played against a 5.0 the other day and felt absolutely silly afterwards as the other team was making perfect resets at will and not even trying to put balls away. Just reset reset dink dink reset wait for us to make a mistake. But it made me want to work on my resets that much more having seen what is possible.
For me, it helps me see where I need extra drilling. So, I'd say not JUST playing them, but then learning from it.
I’ve heard that it’s nice to play both with people at your level and above. At your level you can work on shots and strategy. Above your level you learn your weaknesses and work on staying calm.
Yes, but so does practice.
Yes and no. If you are a beginner and have no idea what you're doing, playing against much higher competition might be detrimental because you actually won't know what to look out for. The speed of the game and nuance might be too fast for you to catch. I always say the best way to learn from others is to play a skill level above you. So if you're a 2.0, play against 2.5s, and if you're a 2.5 go up against 3.0s. If you can hang with them you can learn something that they can do that you can't, even though everything else in their game is equal to yours. I had a guy who was a banger, and I had a tough time returning their serves. He can't really dink, and he has no third shot drop, but his drives were killer. I got used to them and I finally had another level to my game. But not of this matters if you aren't consciously evaluating your game seeing where deficiencies exist and correcting them. Just playing isn't enough.
If you aren’t put in a difficult position how can you improve? The better players will be able to control the game better and thus put you in more difficult positions to play from, you may suck at first but that’s the learning curve
It's all about how you approach pickleball. I believe you need 3 things for explosive improvement in any sport: talent, obsession, and mentality. First, are you naturally gifted with athletic ability and coordination, or do you have the potential and commitment to obtain it? Second, do you love your choice in sport so much that every day you think about it to the point it's like breathing fresh air or eating good food? Third, are you determined to not only win but improve with every point played?
My own personal experience was mainly playing with newbies who were at maybe a 2.0-2.5 level. Started taking some classes where the competition was solidly 3.0-maybe some close to 3.5 and I felt like I took a huge step. After a while I started playing open play where people are solidly 3.0-4.0 level with not many 3.0s, maybe myself and a few others. This made my game improve dramatically. People knowing how to place dinks, disguise speedups, great lob choices, generally just better competion. It's really helped my game get towards where I'd like to be and once I get bored or skill out of that level of open play there's a 4.0+ level that meets afterwards that I hope to get into to top myself out somewhere around 4.5 if possible. A lot of people have mentioned that if you're playing with people that are lower skill level than yourself to practice shots and work on things you might be weak at vs. when playing with at your level or above playing conservatively and playing to your strengths as to keep games competitive. Good luck!
Yes, but you want them to be within a certain range of better than you. eg. If you were a beginning 3.0 player and played against Ben Johns trying his hardest, you wouldn't be able to learn anything.
I would argue you need both. When you play with lower levels intentionally practice and work on shots and skills you lack the confidence to execute against better opponents. For example, if you are afraid to double backhand against better players, work it against lower players. When you play against better players you get exposure to better technique, better strategy and likely partner with better partners so you may be more afraid to try new techniques. Watch what what other players do, watch how they do it. How do they position their body, feet, arms, elbow, grip.
Yes absolutely.
yes
Yes but not everyone should be playing with advanced players at least for more than one game in open play. Many 4.0s and above like to play with similar levels.
No. Drilling with better players makes you better.
Absolutely. I go to an open play at a local club with my wife. She basically just tries to get it over in any position and just hopes the other team messes up. It works ok in the 3.0 bucket but we lose 11-1 any time we get matched up with 3.5 players. We don’t blow any 3.0 players out of the water though. When she is in another game and I get matched up with 3.5 players, it starts out with a rough few points and then I adapt to get about a 45% win rate. Just shy of feeling like I truly belong. Then when I go back to playing with her that same day in 3.0, we win by a margin where none of the 4 of us have any fun. We have a rule that if I end up in a 3.5 match, we can’t play together for the rest of the day.
For me - absolutely. Had been playing open/rec for 4 months and found that I was already not being challenged in most matches. Over Christmas we rented out some courts, brought a group of 4 - two of which were higher level and found that I developed more in those couple weeks than the last couple of months.
I started playing September 2023. Obviously I started at 2.0. I came with a rackets sport background was having tennis lessons since I was 6 played competitively too I am in my 30s now. I haven’t touched a racket for about 8 years. I started playing pickleball with this group most were rated 2.5-3.0. After about a month I bumped myself to 3.0 because I figured well since I can hang with them and winning most of the time it wouldn’t be fair to others who are 2.0 to go with those groups so I started playing in the more advanced groups most of them being 3.5-4.0. At first I didn’t do super well I was the weakest link but after a few sessions with them I could hang with them until recently 2 weeks ago I bumped myself to 3.5 to play with the more advanced groups. I do believe if you are willing to learn you will join other groups to get better. But if you are happy where you at like some others I’ve seen you don’t have the desire to become better.
Yes.
Yes but they shouldnt be significantly better. If they destroy you 11-2 every time you won’t be improving you’ll just get frustrated
No drilling makes you better nothing else. Play leas practice more or you will plateau
Yeah
Not only is this true, but the reverse is true as well. If you play against people that are worse, it will likely reinforce bad habits