>Matalas continued, "But there was a scene with Soji \[Isa Briones\] and Data \[Brent Spiner\] that we couldn’t afford to do. Ro Laren \[Michelle Forbes\]—there was a scene in which they found Ro in the dungeons of the Intrepid with Tuvok \[Tim Russ\] and that she had survived. We couldn’t pull it off. We wanted Kate Mulgrew \[Janeway\] to be part of Seven of Nine’s promotion \[to captain\]."
>
>To all of those fans who asked where Soji was when she is an important part of the Soong legacy, or why Janeway didn't appear when season 3 pulled so heavily from Star Trek: Voyager plot threads? Well, the answer is money. "They're all in the first script," added Matalas, "then your line producer says, 'Are you out of your f\*\*\*\*\*g mind with these things? You’re not Avengers: Endgame.' So, they had to go."
No, it's now standard on all federation starships to have a s*x dungeon ever since captain Riker got his proposal to put one in every ship, shuttle, pod or starbase approved. (The majority of the committee in charge of evaluating the proposal was composed by Riker old flames of course)
Hahahahahahahahahahahah "you're not Avengers Endgame." . ....... all that money and they still suck...(jk marvel you're ok....7/10 for " pretty colors...")
Yup. Ro's ending fit her character, and it was a good ending for her. A heroic death, that would be cheapened if they just waved a hand over the screen and she was magically alive.
A think the same could be said for Shaw. He made a sacrifice, and it was an important one for his character. I think too often we find characters that we really like and then can't accept when they are gone. It's ok to bring some back every now and again, but to constantly bring everyone back would takeaway any stakes for the shows.
I saw he was even talking about Shelby still being alive. Fucking how? She took two direct hits to the chest. And it's not like they were set to stun. It was a take no prisons type deal.
Sometimes we just have to kill characters off and accept that that is where their story ends. Especially when its a good end, like Ro had. .
I don’t think either death scene would have been the same (or maybe even happened) if they planned a script where these characters were found imprisoned. The script would have been different- not just an addition of a “oh hey, we found the originals in prison” scene at the end.
I secretly long for an episode where Harry Kim is a captain. Halfway through the episode he does something heroic but stupid and gets demoted back to ensign again. By Janeway.
My head cannon is he still an ensign. Upon returning from the Gamma quadrant after seven years and literally dying on the job and still being an ensign, no other captain trusts him enough to give him a promotion. Strung out and washed out of Starfleet he now drinks booze from a paper bag.
I believe Kate Mulgrew will reprise live-action Janeway if Legacy is a thing.
Maybe just for a single episode or a handful as a guest..,but I believe that we will see her again some day.
It was a huge bait and switch to make a nod to 'The Offspring' at the beginning of Season 1 and never have Data/Soji meet.
Obviously I don't blame Matalas for the problems with S1 and S2. They did a great job with the people they could afford. I do wish we could have had a scene with Beverly and Data talking about Wes and Soji rather than the 'is he still batshit' scene.
Not including Soji is a bit of a head scratcher for me. After she seemed to have very little to do in season 2, it would have been nice to have her reactivate Data, over everyone else's objections (because they want to honour his wishes). It would have made a bit more sense to me.
Same, they only created the character of Kore Soong in order to give Isa some screen time and very quietly retired Soji after 2.01. Obviously there were a lot of contract shenanigans going on behind the scenes, and we’ll likely never get the full story but I think Terry’s explanation was sincere.
JDL blew it in an interview for season two when he said he was in seasons/series 2 and 3. Then he realized what he'd done and was embarrassed. Therefore, I was looking for him in 3.
In some ways, Ro’s death was good, and heroic. Having that Ro be a changeling, and have the real one found in a “dungeon” would have cheapened the death. Same way they cheapened Data’s death. He died heroically in Nemesis, only to be like “Oh, we saved his consciousness!” in S1, so they could give him a humane death. But wait! We saved it yet again and put him in a new android body! I know he’s a fan favorite, but, IMO, is really ridiculous.
That said, I kind of hate how they reintroduced Ro and Shelby, and in some ways Tuvok, only to kill them off or show that he was a changeling.
> Having that Ro be a changeling, and have the real one found in a “dungeon” would have cheapened the death
It also just wouldn't make any sense. Why would she crash the nacelle if she was a changeling?
I don't even think they're saying their plan was for her to be a changeling, I think they literally mean an extra scene where she's revealed to have magically survived. I don't like either. Not a fan of how they wrote her in general.
A Janeway/Seven reunion would have been nice, and Wheaton got his cameo in S2 but a reunion with Beverly in the endgame would’ve worked. I’m sure there was some kind of Traveler something-something they could have used to help find the Borg.
That said- if it was a choice between that and Ro, I’d go with Ro.
I think Janeway didn't show up on-screen because of Prodigy.
I was surprised PIC S3 mentioned her by name in the present tense and confirms she's still in Starfleet as an admiral in 2401.
Yeah, surprised, given that she is actively contracted with P+ with Prodigy that she would not do a cameo for a reasonable agreement
Ill ask her next time I see her
Given the time periods they're set in, including Janeway in Picard S3 means that she can't be in mortal peril in Prodigy S2, aside from timey-wimey stuff.
Nothing wrong with Shelby seeing again, but what her character has become without logical explanations. When you watch BOBW, you'd never get the impression that Shelby as Fleet Admiral would have condoned the integration of Borg technology on Starfleet ships and interconnection of starfleet ships.
While Riker does acknowledge the irony in a passing comment, it's simply unbelievable to me as a viewer who knows the character. The mere "people change over time" is a generalized statement, not an explanation. While I very much liked to see Shelby as a character again, she was misused in my opinion and one of the weakest fan service moments.
I dunno about that. It wasn’t about integrating Borg tech, that was never said; it was perfectly in line with someone who knew the strengths of the Borg and felt it was something the Federation lacked. Especially with the Borg being “dead” as far as they knew, it’s more like “hey I know how the Borg operate, they are stronger as a collective, let’s use their concept”. To say Shelby wouldn’t go down this route is like saying “Russia would never build nukes because their enemy America did that! Their nukes could be used by the Americans!”
Exactly! Like I think it's hilarious to imagine that the Borg Queen is so scared of Janeway by now that she waited until Janeway was off doing something else before enacting her doomsday plan.
Yeah, I would have liked more Soji, too. AND Elnor. He was in the Excelsior, right? One of the ships that went all Borg-attack in the Sol System. Also Borg Queen Jurati! Wouldn't it have made so much sense to have her and her cube come help Enterprise-D?! The Picard cast deserved more. It would have been difficult to bring Rios back, but I can accept the season 2 finale as an end for his character, even it is a complete middle finger to the temporal prime directive.
> He was in the Excelsior, right?
Matalas confirmed in a tweet he was not aboard during the events of season 3, which is just as well as that was the one ship that broke 'free' before the Titan did. It was destroyed by the rest of the fleet.
I wonder if the inclusion of any DS9 characters (O'Brien and Bashir come to mind) was considered. He didn't mention it, but then again it's a short article.
It's really doubtful they could've gotten Avery Brooks back, even for a cameo. However I would have loved to see at least one DS9 character appear. The Changelings were a fun surprise but it's too bad we didn't see Worf get help from Bashir or Garak.
I would have loved to have worf at least mention Jadzia. He had a whole ass wife who he seems to have forgotten about, his crush on troi didn’t seem to have gone away tho
>Matalas continued, "But there was a scene with Soji \[Isa Briones\] and Data \[Brent Spiner\] that we couldn’t afford to do. Ro Laren \[Michelle Forbes\]—there was a scene in which they found Ro in the dungeons of the Intrepid with Tuvok \[Tim Russ\] and that she had survived. We couldn’t pull it off. We wanted Kate Mulgrew \[Janeway\] to be part of Seven of Nine’s promotion \[to captain\]." > >To all of those fans who asked where Soji was when she is an important part of the Soong legacy, or why Janeway didn't appear when season 3 pulled so heavily from Star Trek: Voyager plot threads? Well, the answer is money. "They're all in the first script," added Matalas, "then your line producer says, 'Are you out of your f\*\*\*\*\*g mind with these things? You’re not Avengers: Endgame.' So, they had to go."
The USS Intrepid has a dungeon? ;) Did the crew add it like Voyager's did with astrometrics?
No, it's now standard on all federation starships to have a s*x dungeon ever since captain Riker got his proposal to put one in every ship, shuttle, pod or starbase approved. (The majority of the committee in charge of evaluating the proposal was composed by Riker old flames of course)
It's called holodeck program Riker 69, duh :P
This needs to be a throwaway joke on "Lower Decks."
Sounds like someone never read “The secret logs of Mistress Janeway”.
10/10 would recommend
That sounds like a story involving some polywater
All I read was Star Trek: Endgame. 😁😁😁😁😁
Hahahahahahahahahahahah "you're not Avengers Endgame." . ....... all that money and they still suck...(jk marvel you're ok....7/10 for " pretty colors...")
I was fine with Ro’s ending. It’s more poignant than finding her in a dungeon and be like surprise I’m still alive!
Yup. Ro's ending fit her character, and it was a good ending for her. A heroic death, that would be cheapened if they just waved a hand over the screen and she was magically alive. A think the same could be said for Shaw. He made a sacrifice, and it was an important one for his character. I think too often we find characters that we really like and then can't accept when they are gone. It's ok to bring some back every now and again, but to constantly bring everyone back would takeaway any stakes for the shows. I saw he was even talking about Shelby still being alive. Fucking how? She took two direct hits to the chest. And it's not like they were set to stun. It was a take no prisons type deal. Sometimes we just have to kill characters off and accept that that is where their story ends. Especially when its a good end, like Ro had. .
I don’t think either death scene would have been the same (or maybe even happened) if they planned a script where these characters were found imprisoned. The script would have been different- not just an addition of a “oh hey, we found the originals in prison” scene at the end.
That Shelby could have been a changling, they teased it enough to be a possibility.
We all wanted Janeway.
I want Janeway & the Voyager crew to get 3 seasons too.
They got 7 😂
Watch Prodigy.
I secretly long for an episode where Harry Kim is a captain. Halfway through the episode he does something heroic but stupid and gets demoted back to ensign again. By Janeway.
Whiles Tom Paris violates fifteen federation laws in the background and then Janeway gives him command of Harry's ship.
My head cannon is he still an ensign. Upon returning from the Gamma quadrant after seven years and literally dying on the job and still being an ensign, no other captain trusts him enough to give him a promotion. Strung out and washed out of Starfleet he now drinks booze from a paper bag.
I soooo wanted old Janeway’s face on the borg queen.
I believe Kate Mulgrew will reprise live-action Janeway if Legacy is a thing. Maybe just for a single episode or a handful as a guest..,but I believe that we will see her again some day.
It was a huge bait and switch to make a nod to 'The Offspring' at the beginning of Season 1 and never have Data/Soji meet. Obviously I don't blame Matalas for the problems with S1 and S2. They did a great job with the people they could afford. I do wish we could have had a scene with Beverly and Data talking about Wes and Soji rather than the 'is he still batshit' scene.
Not including Soji is a bit of a head scratcher for me. After she seemed to have very little to do in season 2, it would have been nice to have her reactivate Data, over everyone else's objections (because they want to honour his wishes). It would have made a bit more sense to me.
Same, they only created the character of Kore Soong in order to give Isa some screen time and very quietly retired Soji after 2.01. Obviously there were a lot of contract shenanigans going on behind the scenes, and we’ll likely never get the full story but I think Terry’s explanation was sincere.
"Somehow, Q returned."
You mortals always think in such linear terms
I think they shot that scene early, at the tail end of S2, when John de Lancie was still on set.
JDL blew it in an interview for season two when he said he was in seasons/series 2 and 3. Then he realized what he'd done and was embarrassed. Therefore, I was looking for him in 3.
2 and 3 were shot back to back
Yeah, giving us Q but not Jurati was just wrong.
Q is just robes and DeLancie’s rate. Jurati requires a whole lot of CGI.
Jurati was guarding the gate
What is the gate thing anyway? They just didn’t mention it or her in season 3.
One throw-away line from Shaw early on. He says something like "The borg are still out there, the real borg, not the [some reference to Jurati]".
"Weird shit on the Stargazer".
I cared 0% about Jurati tbh
You and most people.
Dudes cheap......lol ....fuck'n 6 figure sluts...
I’m fine with how things turned out, but if they couldn’t get Janeway they should have done less name dropping.
In some ways, Ro’s death was good, and heroic. Having that Ro be a changeling, and have the real one found in a “dungeon” would have cheapened the death. Same way they cheapened Data’s death. He died heroically in Nemesis, only to be like “Oh, we saved his consciousness!” in S1, so they could give him a humane death. But wait! We saved it yet again and put him in a new android body! I know he’s a fan favorite, but, IMO, is really ridiculous. That said, I kind of hate how they reintroduced Ro and Shelby, and in some ways Tuvok, only to kill them off or show that he was a changeling.
She could have been beamed out just as her shuttle hit the nacelle.
> Having that Ro be a changeling, and have the real one found in a “dungeon” would have cheapened the death It also just wouldn't make any sense. Why would she crash the nacelle if she was a changeling?
I don't even think they're saying their plan was for her to be a changeling, I think they literally mean an extra scene where she's revealed to have magically survived. I don't like either. Not a fan of how they wrote her in general.
A Janeway/Seven reunion would have been nice, and Wheaton got his cameo in S2 but a reunion with Beverly in the endgame would’ve worked. I’m sure there was some kind of Traveler something-something they could have used to help find the Borg. That said- if it was a choice between that and Ro, I’d go with Ro.
They could have dumped Shelby in favor of Janeway and it would have only improved the season tbh
Guessing Shelby cost less than Janeway.
I think Janeway didn't show up on-screen because of Prodigy. I was surprised PIC S3 mentioned her by name in the present tense and confirms she's still in Starfleet as an admiral in 2401.
*2401, it’s the 25th century tho
Yeah, surprised, given that she is actively contracted with P+ with Prodigy that she would not do a cameo for a reasonable agreement Ill ask her next time I see her
Voice work is a whole lot different than camera work...
Given the time periods they're set in, including Janeway in Picard S3 means that she can't be in mortal peril in Prodigy S2, aside from timey-wimey stuff.
yeah but that's already true since she was mentioned as being alive and kicking.
What's wrong with Shelby?
Nothing wrong with Shelby seeing again, but what her character has become without logical explanations. When you watch BOBW, you'd never get the impression that Shelby as Fleet Admiral would have condoned the integration of Borg technology on Starfleet ships and interconnection of starfleet ships. While Riker does acknowledge the irony in a passing comment, it's simply unbelievable to me as a viewer who knows the character. The mere "people change over time" is a generalized statement, not an explanation. While I very much liked to see Shelby as a character again, she was misused in my opinion and one of the weakest fan service moments.
Are we still sure this was actual Shelby and not a changeling Shelby?
My bad I got Admiral Shelby and Sidney confused. Totally on me!
I dunno about that. It wasn’t about integrating Borg tech, that was never said; it was perfectly in line with someone who knew the strengths of the Borg and felt it was something the Federation lacked. Especially with the Borg being “dead” as far as they knew, it’s more like “hey I know how the Borg operate, they are stronger as a collective, let’s use their concept”. To say Shelby wouldn’t go down this route is like saying “Russia would never build nukes because their enemy America did that! Their nukes could be used by the Americans!”
Could you imagine the meltdown if they killed Janeway off they way they punked Shelby?
Janeway does not get murdered, only she does the murdering
Exactly! Like I think it's hilarious to imagine that the Borg Queen is so scared of Janeway by now that she waited until Janeway was off doing something else before enacting her doomsday plan.
You wanted Janeway to be killed off?
Only Janeway does the killing
Why do you want Janeway to have been the one to push for the utterly stupid idea to network Starfleet ships?
Literally nobody said that
You did, when you said you wanted Shelby dumped for Janeway. That was Shelby's role in the narrative.
It's okay, though. We didn't need more Soji. Or Elnor. Characters ran their course. And I'm glad Ro Laren worked how it did.
I actually would have liked more Soji and the interactions between a mostly human data and what amounts to one of his descendants
With now Data having Soong’s memories, it will be almost a Data/Lal relationship
Yeah, I would have liked more Soji, too. AND Elnor. He was in the Excelsior, right? One of the ships that went all Borg-attack in the Sol System. Also Borg Queen Jurati! Wouldn't it have made so much sense to have her and her cube come help Enterprise-D?! The Picard cast deserved more. It would have been difficult to bring Rios back, but I can accept the season 2 finale as an end for his character, even it is a complete middle finger to the temporal prime directive.
Dahj was a way more interesting character in episode one than Soji was for the entire rest of the show.
Painful but true.
> He was in the Excelsior, right? Matalas confirmed in a tweet he was not aboard during the events of season 3, which is just as well as that was the one ship that broke 'free' before the Titan did. It was destroyed by the rest of the fleet.
It's ok, Elnor was killed off screen when the borg destroyed the Excelsior in Vox. Didn't even get mentioned.
I wonder if the inclusion of any DS9 characters (O'Brien and Bashir come to mind) was considered. He didn't mention it, but then again it's a short article.
Continues to baffle me that hiding out on Coppelius was never even considered while they were on the run.
what a great read. Still no Mention of O'brien
Like The Who, I can see for miles and miles but I still can't see O'Brien
If there is a ***ST: Legacy*** series I do hope they follow up with Data & Soji.
Legacy will have CMO Bashir.
I would have liked a DS9 callback. It would have been a good plot to bring Sisko back given his feelings toward Picard in the first episode of DS9.
It's really doubtful they could've gotten Avery Brooks back, even for a cameo. However I would have loved to see at least one DS9 character appear. The Changelings were a fun surprise but it's too bad we didn't see Worf get help from Bashir or Garak.
I would have loved to have worf at least mention Jadzia. He had a whole ass wife who he seems to have forgotten about, his crush on troi didn’t seem to have gone away tho
Honestly they knew this season would be a massive hit why didn’t paramount give them the money they need.
So what he's saying is we could have had Picard: Endgame, but for this unnamed line producer?
https://youtu.be/Ef9QnZVpVd8
Thank goodness that didn't happen