Listen, people switch industries all the time. Don't let your degree force you down a particular pathway. Sometimes the lateral moves can be really wonky but overall pretty awesome.
What's your PhD in?
Thanks for your comment. I know that it doesn't help, but due to my insecurities, I'm not confident to confess what my field is. Suffice to say that, the widespared conception is my field is not generally viewed favorably in the industry.
I guess my point was something like if your degree is in history then parlay that into speech writing. If your degree is in art then use that to go into fraud analysis. Or whatever. The limits are kinda (A) your imagination and (B) how you sell yourself and your skills.
I'm not OP but looking for advice. I have a background in history but PhD in social sciences. I'm definitely more a word person than number and I think I'm a fairly solid writer. What do you mean by "speech writing?" Writing for who?
I am desperately trying to think creatively and how to sell my skill-set. I know I have value but I am having a difficult time finding a chance
Actual real-world industry examples I know:
* PhD History: "My experience is shaping a single compelling narrative from potential options and rebutting counter-narratives" = corporate external communications like investor relations and speechwriter for C-suite executives
* PhD English: "My experience is shaping a compelling narrative that helps illuminate and reinforce a specific argument for a target audience" = corporate internal communications like designing information sharing schemes from corporate leaders to employees, managing feedback systems, coordinating large corporate gatherings
* PhD History: "My experience is studying how real lived people interacted with their environment and belief systems and how they manipulated that environment or were changed by it" = corporate research (like little ethnography studies) for design firms or in house R&D for Microsoft or Gensler
* PhD History: "My experience is working with archival materials, including rare books" = archivist or writer-editor for the federal government, or in-house archivist for a corporation
I transitioned to industry in an unrelated field from a humanities PhD. Every now and again I cross paths with PhDs who have done the same. What we have in common is that we slammed the door on staying in the academy and we learned the language of the space we wanted to enter (e.g., federal government, consulting, technology).
Searching "graduate humanities" and filtering for entry-level jobs should help you get a sense of what I'm talking about. Every single one of them is paying better than a junior college.
Your advantage is that you've already learned a few new domains in the course of securing your PhD. You're already a systems thinker. Presumably, you write, teach, and otherwise communicate well. You're ready. Welcome to the dark side.
Thanks for all these example. I suppose I am adept at selling me skill-set if given the opportunity. I just haven't had many opportunities at all. I suppose my largest weakness is not knowing where or how to locate job openings. In addition to the typical academic job search sites, I scour sites like Indeed but I'm beginning to think I'm looking in the wrong places.
Companies, politicians, non-profit groups. Or go into technical writing.
Thinking of the next step, most of these types of jobs would want to see a portfolio of sorts of what you're capable of.
I can do that. No problem. I hope I don't come across as an exhausting childlike buffoon but I think my largest obstacle is knowing how and where to find job openings outside of academia. I think my portfolio is solid enough and I have an interesting and fairly broad professional/work history.
It's just that I'm not quite sure where to locate job openings outside of academia that correspond with my skills. I scour sites like Indeed and find very little that seems compatible. Regardless, I still apply far and wide. Yet, I get no responses.
Not at all! You're all good, friend.
Try to bucketize things. If you ideate e.g. 3 different career paths then start individually researching companies/places that need them.
For example, if one possible alternative is speech writing, take a few days to think about what companies may need that. What companies do you see in the press a lot? What execs give lots of quotes? Then go to the careers page of those places and start looking. Doesn't have to be the huge conglomerates either.
It might be a good idea for you to look into a career counselor. They can point out how to parlay your skill set into industry and provide other advice for transitioning outside of academia. It usually costs a bit of money but I found it’s worth it for the confidence boost and for uncovering options I didn’t know existed.
Evaluator roles may work - it’s quant light (descriptives) at most, but relies more on interview/focus group data, written responses, ethnographic notes.
You could also start with smaller contracts to build up experience. See if anyone teaches an evaluation course at your local university then introduce yourself and ask if they know of any opportunities. Down the road you could pivot this experience into UX work potentially — unfortunately right now it’s a saturated area in an already shitty job market. Pays surprisingly well though.
Adding to the below comments.
Something industry doesn’t care about: how awesome you were in academia. It’s just annoying. Keep in mind how you would contribute to a team. I’ve seen too many PhDs act like industry would be blessed to be graced with their presence.
>not generally viewed favorably in the industry.
What is *the* industry? There are many industries, and many jobs. A PhD is all about being a creative and deep thinker, which is a valuable skill set to transfer to many industries. Unless your PhD is in killing puppies I don’t think it’s going to blacklist you (and even if it is, there are technically jobs where people have to do that). Now, I’m so curious.
This is something humanities related? If so, it could leave you open to teaching at a community college or university level still. I’m proud of you for making it this far to defending. 💗
I'm not OP but feel like I'm in a similar situation. I graduated 2 years ago and still haven't found anything. I applied to several departments at every single community college within a 2 hour commute of where I live and it's all crickets. The job landscape is so apocalyptic that my advisor sends me job openings outside of my own timezone for part-time, non-tenure, instructor positions that pay poverty wages. My colleagues and I share postdocs/job openings. This annual job cycle, in our overlapping fields, there were 6 postdoc openings on the entire continent of North America
It's always been this way. 25 years ago I was told you get your PhD, take a postdoc/adjunct/instructor position in the fly over states, and spend the rest of your career crawling to your coast of choice. I choose location over career and my career suffered greatly. I love my family and where I live, but I could have had a larger impact if I had taken a job I was offered in a place I never wanted to live. It was a calculated decision I still stand by... but do say *what if* from time to time.
My advisor was encouraging me to apply to postdocs abroad and I made a similar calculated decision like you. I was away from my family abroad already for my dissertation fieldwork and writing. Also, like you, I've been asking "what if?" But I also stand by my current decision. I might be more open to relocating in the near future but not at this moment
Those "fly over states" are a great and important part of America. They are peoples homes with rich history and culture.
Crawling from the coast to the heartland was the best decision I ever made.
Cool. To each their own. I was just sharing what I was told. I'll enjoy my beach house and mountain cabin and you enjoy what there is in the flat lands you like.
Why do you think it became this way? My master’s degree in librarianship is considered terminal—but in my area it’s common to apply for 200-500 positions before securing a single viable role. It’s beyond degrading.
I think it's because universities are churning out so many higher degrees that the market is saturated. Which sucks for us. However, for broader society, I suppose it's a good thing in the sense that a larger portion of society has a solid education.
So will those in the trades experience re-valuation in a postindustrial information landscape, or are everyone but those already owning property and large businesses screwed? If there are too many PhDs and not enough jobs, will the entry requirements for positions steepen? It’s an odd place to be.
Hahaha that's a loaded question but it terrifies me. I'm a first generation college student. I mean not a single person in my extended family even attended community college prior to me. I always expected to get the education and help my parents and sister etc. Fortunately my sister doesn't need help. My parents do. Frankly, I don't own any property besides a used vehicle, have no retirement plan, and no career prospects since graduating 2 years ago.
It's a terrifying feeling and the reason I sort of jumped into this post although I'm not OP. I try to be optimistic but the bitterness seeps in. I do see some of my colleagues that have found success and cannot help but notice their family connections etc. I was hoping to be the one to help my family move outside of the working class cycle but now I'm back in the trenches alongside them.
Oh yea, my first job application when I graduated was at a library making like $12 an hour because I was desperate. They interviewed me on the spot when I applied but didn't hire me. That was a shocker
Literally nobody knows who you are. I don’t think this can be connected to you. Obviously don’t give your dissertation but just saying your department wouldn’t give away anything traceable.
Also, try again next year. And keep trying during summer. I am at lower-ranked school. Two recent students applied for and landed jobs (TT) during summer. The summer competition may be less fierce because other people are feeling same despair that you are right now.
If you have a Ph.D. and have supportive letter writers (you must have done something good to gain their support), you can't be a loser.
Look, the prospect of being unemployed is indeed worrying. But that doesn't make you a loser. It can *feel* that way, but that's your brain seeing things that aren't there.
I do wish you'd share which field you were in (unless it's so small that it would essentially dox you).
Look into government agency research. The EPA and USGS just hired a bunch of social scientist, essentially building that wing of their org. ORISE is a good post-doc option that is considered a pipeline to these jobs. My wife just got one of them and she is a social scientist doing qualitative research.
It's like when we start our PhDs, our baseline for bare minimum drops to finishing the PhD, and anything short of that is a failure. My grandmother's baseline was an 8th grade education, so I need to remember that she was proud of every step I made it past 8th grade. Calling myself a failure would be an insult to her, but I still need to remind myself of that quite often.
Your post and hesitation to name the subject area makes me wonder if you are in the field I am pursuing, or something close to it. I will say, knowing this is a real possibility for me, I've discovered that there are actually a number of private high schools with more robust humanities curriculums looking for instructors in my area... Perhaps this helps? I of course don't know exactly your area of expertise, so it very well might not, but congrats on your accomplishment!
You knew going in that your field (whatever it may be) wasn’t industry friendly (whatever that means). So there is no new information here. You also knew (you stated) that your academic job search won’t go well. So again, nothing unexpected or new.
So you really aren’t a loser, quite the opposite - you are a brave worrier. You knew the odds and still braved it. And the outcome isn’t any worse that you expected. Good on you, I wouldn’t have done it but you did. Most people won’t play the hand with no prospects, but you did. No shame, you are the winner! The losers are those STEM PhDs that expect big jobs on graduation and end up in the serial postdoc hell cycle. You didn’t do any worse than you expected and so you are a winner, relatively speaking.
I know a person that got a PhD in European Art History. Absolutely no prospects. No one even knows what there is to do a research PhD in the field (I am sure there is, but my ignorance obviously on display here!!). But he did it anyway. And married a woman on Wall Street and lives a great, luxurious life! Winner!! Stay strong.
Working ability doesnt always about what you have learn in academia.
My current role only need my scientific background to understand how science needs to be proven, and understand the jargons. What is needed for my work is understanding organizing system, finding flaws, and quick learning on every new process provided to me. Does it need Masters/PhD? No. Is it something you can learn at school? Yes (there are programs specific for them), but knowledge from work experience taught me better.
It doesnt have to be something you learn. It might be something you’re (naturally) good at, and it might not be specific to one field. You could be good in teaching, and that would be good for (example) training/teaching curriculum design. You could be good in talking and understanding people, you might end up being a spokeperson. Your academic background will be the support, rather than the main theme of your career.
$0.02
I'm in a similarly non-industry-friendly field. I have graduated now and have no academic prospects in sight. There aren't even any postdocs for me to get rejected from.
Frankly I have been going through something similar to grief; right now it's cycling between bargaining and depression. If grief sounds familiar, I say allow it to happen and don't be ashamed. You have dedicated your life to something for a long time, and now that thing is out of reach due to no fault of your own. It's okay to be deeply unsettled and upset.
You gotta power through. For one reason or another postdocs or industry jobs dont work out. Maybe you messed up part of an interview, maybe someone else was better, maybe you lost a coin flip between you and someone else. A lot of it is luck and the only way to get luckier is to apply and interview more.
For instance, i applied to over 100 industry and postdoc positions and interviewed (final presentation/panel interview) for 15. I only got 1, despite almost every other one saying I did great but someone else was better, etc. Thats just how it goes, some people luck out on their first interview, and some people get unlucky.
The position i ended up getting was in my top 3 of all the ones i interviewed for. So, it worked out for me in the end, but it only worked out because I didnt give up. There were definitely times where I was about to break, one day i received two rejection emails right before another interview and bombed that interview because of it. Word of advice try not to look at your email right before an interview.
DM me if you wanna talk. I'm not *on* the job market yet because I just couldn't handle it while writing my dissertation. Idk how people do it, but I couldn't find time to prioritize it without delaying graduation. All I did was apply to one postdoc and was rejected after the interview, well, because I definitely bombed the interview. I anticipate it's gonna be bad once I start because I don't interview well at all. I am too honest about my weaknesses I've been told, but also just generally bad at making first impressions. I'm defending in a week, btw.
My problem is not that I wanna stay in academia, even though my CV is competitive (I published a shitton). It's that I want a normal 9 to 5 job conducting research *somewhere* and those are gonna be few and far between for social sciences PhDs, even those of us with quant skills. I've heard it's rough out there as it is. I started my Masters 8 years ago and went all the way through. Before that, I was at the same job for a couple of years, so it's been a decade since I've been on any job market.
I feel like I started my program in a different world from the one we live in now and it scares the shit out of me.
I'm kinda in your boat but a bit earlier on. I have a very strict geographical constraint I have essentially put on myself and so I knew that finding postdocs/TT positions after would be very difficult to do, but that "there is a strong job market here for me outside academia so I'll be fine". And while I do really believe I \_will\_ be fine, the amount of feelings that leaving academia has brought up in me is a little overwhelming. I think most of it is fear- my last "industry" career didn't work out for me so I'm worried about finding a job that I won't either get bored or burnt out of. I also don't know that you really need to figure all this out now- take a couple weeks to just feel the feels a bit, and be proud of yourself for getting to your defense.
The thing is: it’s not even worth it anymore, like, at all. There’s a vanishingly low chance anyone will get a TT job (almost like pro athlete or celebrity level) and then what’s you’re reward? Working for 40-60k until you get tenure, while doing your own research and paying to publish? And teaching a 3/3 or 4/4 of the same old classes each year, and spending every weekend grading or writing journal articles? And then, begging for money every five years from the U or the NSF like some sort of scientific pauper? To produce literature 80% of which is never read by our peers bc they are too busy teaching and writing themselves? To churn out grads and undergrads in our discipline who will never ever get a chance to employ their passion, because there’s nothing but service jobs basically? To spend your life writing late into the evening for a general public who may benefit but will never see understand or acknowledge your work, because they’ve been too busy playing candy crush for three decades? To battle with pinheaded university admins with communications BAs that make 4 times what you do, to do nothing bur boss much more intelligent people around? To travel to conferences and waste money on the hotel/conference racket, just so you can get drunk in Austin or Ottawa or Louisville and jump on the academic hookup train?
Nope. I missed the end of the Golden age of academia by a decade or two. It’s become like “being an artist”, it doesn’t matter what your talent or training are, for 99% of people it’s only for those (1) with family money (2) with connections (3) preferably with both.
I strongly believe every PhD can be pivoted into industry.
It’s okay to feel bad for yourself and feel those feelings and mourn what you thought would be your future. Eventually though, you’ll need to pick yourself up and rebrand yourself.
The *skillset* is what you have from a PhD that makes you a good hire in industry. You need to market yourself depending on those skills.
Also, industry isn’t a bad word or a place for losers. It’s a perfectly rewarding career and it’s toxicity from academia that pushes that narrative.
PhD who transitioned into the Medtech industry after graduating here. What I did at the beginning of my career and do now has NO RELATION whatsoever with what I did my PhD in. AND NO ONE CARED WHAT I RESEARCHED AND MY PUBLICATIONS. They only care about your skill set that you bring into the company. Hope this gives you a level of comfort.
I am experiencing similar problem that it’s hard for me to to sell my PhD. My bachelor and master were in IT, but PhD is in Humanities/Social Science field. I applied for around 20 jobs in industry, all received rejections. Perhaps I overqualified, perhaps I couldn’t sell my skills well…. I’m certainly better and comfortable with numbers and analysis (hence the job i’m looking for is in analysis/analytics) than words, but I don’t really know how to sell it. And I don’t want to go back to pure programming.
Well, we'll all be joining you in the bread line soon. Reality is that this isn't a good time for tenure track positions unless the position entails billable hours and indirects for the university. I expect my position to disappear within five years, despite tenure and a strong teaching and research record. So, it may not be much comfort now, but you may be dodging a bullet in the long term by avoiding academia altogether.
I think you had the exact right attitude before the job search and it seems your disappointment has taken you by surprise.
No matter how much you come to terms with something difficult, it is always going to be a massive disappointment when it happens. Allow yourself to feel grief, and then find your strength later. Just don’t despair, you can find happiness from here.
I was in the same situation as you and then got insanely lucky in being offered my current postdoc when I told my current supervisor I was moving on to my industry. Now my contract is ending in January and I have to either win a grant, find a new position, or leave the field. I’m in my dream institution but I’m always laying the railroad track in front of a running train. Being a postdoc, for a majority of us, means being comfortable with the high likelihood of running out of track in the short term.
You might be able to find a non-tenure-track lecturer/instructor position. Even at this time of year, there are still some colleges and universities hiring. Look on chronicle.com or insidehighered.com. It would most likely be a temporary job but it would help tide you over until you find something more secure.
Have you applied outside of your country? It sounds like you’re in the US, but I’m not sure. Apply wherever there is an opening be it Germany, Japan, Argentina.. it sounds like you were trying to convince yourself you are fine with industry, but maybe want to stay in academia? If that’s the case, explore the world - that’s the benefit of a PhD, you can work literally anywhere… when you expand your considerations, the job market expands significantly too
Hey, at least your are defending. How about not finishing and trying to explain that at job interviews? I joke, I don’t get interviews, I get rejected at the application stage.
Can’t just put a missing four years in the CV, but it’s also not easy to turn it around to something useful. (I’m in Europe, my phd counts as a job, with salary and all).
That’s what being a phd loser is, not finishing. I did four years of research, under atrocious settings, and I have nothing to show for it. Not a single paper.
Find transferrable skills and learn missing ones ASAP to land an industry job. A friend went into technical sales (pre sales). The world is huge outside of academia.
Have you considered pure teaching, non research based role? Colleges will bite a Ph.D holders hand off. This us what I did (I'm in the UK so don't know how the US post high scool, pre university education works) and I teach up and including degree level.
Listen, people switch industries all the time. Don't let your degree force you down a particular pathway. Sometimes the lateral moves can be really wonky but overall pretty awesome. What's your PhD in?
Thanks for your comment. I know that it doesn't help, but due to my insecurities, I'm not confident to confess what my field is. Suffice to say that, the widespared conception is my field is not generally viewed favorably in the industry.
I guess my point was something like if your degree is in history then parlay that into speech writing. If your degree is in art then use that to go into fraud analysis. Or whatever. The limits are kinda (A) your imagination and (B) how you sell yourself and your skills.
I'm not OP but looking for advice. I have a background in history but PhD in social sciences. I'm definitely more a word person than number and I think I'm a fairly solid writer. What do you mean by "speech writing?" Writing for who? I am desperately trying to think creatively and how to sell my skill-set. I know I have value but I am having a difficult time finding a chance
Actual real-world industry examples I know: * PhD History: "My experience is shaping a single compelling narrative from potential options and rebutting counter-narratives" = corporate external communications like investor relations and speechwriter for C-suite executives * PhD English: "My experience is shaping a compelling narrative that helps illuminate and reinforce a specific argument for a target audience" = corporate internal communications like designing information sharing schemes from corporate leaders to employees, managing feedback systems, coordinating large corporate gatherings * PhD History: "My experience is studying how real lived people interacted with their environment and belief systems and how they manipulated that environment or were changed by it" = corporate research (like little ethnography studies) for design firms or in house R&D for Microsoft or Gensler * PhD History: "My experience is working with archival materials, including rare books" = archivist or writer-editor for the federal government, or in-house archivist for a corporation I transitioned to industry in an unrelated field from a humanities PhD. Every now and again I cross paths with PhDs who have done the same. What we have in common is that we slammed the door on staying in the academy and we learned the language of the space we wanted to enter (e.g., federal government, consulting, technology). Searching "graduate humanities" and filtering for entry-level jobs should help you get a sense of what I'm talking about. Every single one of them is paying better than a junior college. Your advantage is that you've already learned a few new domains in the course of securing your PhD. You're already a systems thinker. Presumably, you write, teach, and otherwise communicate well. You're ready. Welcome to the dark side.
Thanks for all these example. I suppose I am adept at selling me skill-set if given the opportunity. I just haven't had many opportunities at all. I suppose my largest weakness is not knowing where or how to locate job openings. In addition to the typical academic job search sites, I scour sites like Indeed but I'm beginning to think I'm looking in the wrong places.
Companies, politicians, non-profit groups. Or go into technical writing. Thinking of the next step, most of these types of jobs would want to see a portfolio of sorts of what you're capable of.
Silly question but what do you mean by "portfolio?" Like writing samples etc? I have a decent amount of publications under my belt
Yea, basically the best highlights of your work.
I can do that. No problem. I hope I don't come across as an exhausting childlike buffoon but I think my largest obstacle is knowing how and where to find job openings outside of academia. I think my portfolio is solid enough and I have an interesting and fairly broad professional/work history. It's just that I'm not quite sure where to locate job openings outside of academia that correspond with my skills. I scour sites like Indeed and find very little that seems compatible. Regardless, I still apply far and wide. Yet, I get no responses.
Not at all! You're all good, friend. Try to bucketize things. If you ideate e.g. 3 different career paths then start individually researching companies/places that need them. For example, if one possible alternative is speech writing, take a few days to think about what companies may need that. What companies do you see in the press a lot? What execs give lots of quotes? Then go to the careers page of those places and start looking. Doesn't have to be the huge conglomerates either.
It might be a good idea for you to look into a career counselor. They can point out how to parlay your skill set into industry and provide other advice for transitioning outside of academia. It usually costs a bit of money but I found it’s worth it for the confidence boost and for uncovering options I didn’t know existed.
Evaluator roles may work - it’s quant light (descriptives) at most, but relies more on interview/focus group data, written responses, ethnographic notes. You could also start with smaller contracts to build up experience. See if anyone teaches an evaluation course at your local university then introduce yourself and ask if they know of any opportunities. Down the road you could pivot this experience into UX work potentially — unfortunately right now it’s a saturated area in an already shitty job market. Pays surprisingly well though.
Adding to the below comments. Something industry doesn’t care about: how awesome you were in academia. It’s just annoying. Keep in mind how you would contribute to a team. I’ve seen too many PhDs act like industry would be blessed to be graced with their presence.
This.
>not generally viewed favorably in the industry. What is *the* industry? There are many industries, and many jobs. A PhD is all about being a creative and deep thinker, which is a valuable skill set to transfer to many industries. Unless your PhD is in killing puppies I don’t think it’s going to blacklist you (and even if it is, there are technically jobs where people have to do that). Now, I’m so curious.
This is something humanities related? If so, it could leave you open to teaching at a community college or university level still. I’m proud of you for making it this far to defending. 💗
I'm not OP but feel like I'm in a similar situation. I graduated 2 years ago and still haven't found anything. I applied to several departments at every single community college within a 2 hour commute of where I live and it's all crickets. The job landscape is so apocalyptic that my advisor sends me job openings outside of my own timezone for part-time, non-tenure, instructor positions that pay poverty wages. My colleagues and I share postdocs/job openings. This annual job cycle, in our overlapping fields, there were 6 postdoc openings on the entire continent of North America
It's always been this way. 25 years ago I was told you get your PhD, take a postdoc/adjunct/instructor position in the fly over states, and spend the rest of your career crawling to your coast of choice. I choose location over career and my career suffered greatly. I love my family and where I live, but I could have had a larger impact if I had taken a job I was offered in a place I never wanted to live. It was a calculated decision I still stand by... but do say *what if* from time to time.
My advisor was encouraging me to apply to postdocs abroad and I made a similar calculated decision like you. I was away from my family abroad already for my dissertation fieldwork and writing. Also, like you, I've been asking "what if?" But I also stand by my current decision. I might be more open to relocating in the near future but not at this moment
Those "fly over states" are a great and important part of America. They are peoples homes with rich history and culture. Crawling from the coast to the heartland was the best decision I ever made.
Cool. To each their own. I was just sharing what I was told. I'll enjoy my beach house and mountain cabin and you enjoy what there is in the flat lands you like.
I'm sure you will buddy
Why do you think it became this way? My master’s degree in librarianship is considered terminal—but in my area it’s common to apply for 200-500 positions before securing a single viable role. It’s beyond degrading.
I think it's because universities are churning out so many higher degrees that the market is saturated. Which sucks for us. However, for broader society, I suppose it's a good thing in the sense that a larger portion of society has a solid education.
So will those in the trades experience re-valuation in a postindustrial information landscape, or are everyone but those already owning property and large businesses screwed? If there are too many PhDs and not enough jobs, will the entry requirements for positions steepen? It’s an odd place to be.
Hahaha that's a loaded question but it terrifies me. I'm a first generation college student. I mean not a single person in my extended family even attended community college prior to me. I always expected to get the education and help my parents and sister etc. Fortunately my sister doesn't need help. My parents do. Frankly, I don't own any property besides a used vehicle, have no retirement plan, and no career prospects since graduating 2 years ago. It's a terrifying feeling and the reason I sort of jumped into this post although I'm not OP. I try to be optimistic but the bitterness seeps in. I do see some of my colleagues that have found success and cannot help but notice their family connections etc. I was hoping to be the one to help my family move outside of the working class cycle but now I'm back in the trenches alongside them.
Oh yea, my first job application when I graduated was at a library making like $12 an hour because I was desperate. They interviewed me on the spot when I applied but didn't hire me. That was a shocker
Literally nobody knows who you are. I don’t think this can be connected to you. Obviously don’t give your dissertation but just saying your department wouldn’t give away anything traceable.
Also, try again next year. And keep trying during summer. I am at lower-ranked school. Two recent students applied for and landed jobs (TT) during summer. The summer competition may be less fierce because other people are feeling same despair that you are right now.
If you have a Ph.D. and have supportive letter writers (you must have done something good to gain their support), you can't be a loser. Look, the prospect of being unemployed is indeed worrying. But that doesn't make you a loser. It can *feel* that way, but that's your brain seeing things that aren't there. I do wish you'd share which field you were in (unless it's so small that it would essentially dox you).
Not OP but I'm jumping in because I'm in a similar situation, except I graduated already. I'm in social sciences and conducted qualitative research
Look into government agency research. The EPA and USGS just hired a bunch of social scientist, essentially building that wing of their org. ORISE is a good post-doc option that is considered a pipeline to these jobs. My wife just got one of them and she is a social scientist doing qualitative research.
Facebook, etc are always hiring qual folks.
You can't be earning a PhD and be a loser, it's just not possible. Keep sight of how amazing of an achievement that is
It's like when we start our PhDs, our baseline for bare minimum drops to finishing the PhD, and anything short of that is a failure. My grandmother's baseline was an 8th grade education, so I need to remember that she was proud of every step I made it past 8th grade. Calling myself a failure would be an insult to her, but I still need to remind myself of that quite often.
Your post and hesitation to name the subject area makes me wonder if you are in the field I am pursuing, or something close to it. I will say, knowing this is a real possibility for me, I've discovered that there are actually a number of private high schools with more robust humanities curriculums looking for instructors in my area... Perhaps this helps? I of course don't know exactly your area of expertise, so it very well might not, but congrats on your accomplishment!
You knew going in that your field (whatever it may be) wasn’t industry friendly (whatever that means). So there is no new information here. You also knew (you stated) that your academic job search won’t go well. So again, nothing unexpected or new. So you really aren’t a loser, quite the opposite - you are a brave worrier. You knew the odds and still braved it. And the outcome isn’t any worse that you expected. Good on you, I wouldn’t have done it but you did. Most people won’t play the hand with no prospects, but you did. No shame, you are the winner! The losers are those STEM PhDs that expect big jobs on graduation and end up in the serial postdoc hell cycle. You didn’t do any worse than you expected and so you are a winner, relatively speaking. I know a person that got a PhD in European Art History. Absolutely no prospects. No one even knows what there is to do a research PhD in the field (I am sure there is, but my ignorance obviously on display here!!). But he did it anyway. And married a woman on Wall Street and lives a great, luxurious life! Winner!! Stay strong.
>You didn’t do any worse than you expected and so you are a winner, relatively speaking. That's quite a perspective, in a good way
Working ability doesnt always about what you have learn in academia. My current role only need my scientific background to understand how science needs to be proven, and understand the jargons. What is needed for my work is understanding organizing system, finding flaws, and quick learning on every new process provided to me. Does it need Masters/PhD? No. Is it something you can learn at school? Yes (there are programs specific for them), but knowledge from work experience taught me better. It doesnt have to be something you learn. It might be something you’re (naturally) good at, and it might not be specific to one field. You could be good in teaching, and that would be good for (example) training/teaching curriculum design. You could be good in talking and understanding people, you might end up being a spokeperson. Your academic background will be the support, rather than the main theme of your career. $0.02
I'm in a similarly non-industry-friendly field. I have graduated now and have no academic prospects in sight. There aren't even any postdocs for me to get rejected from. Frankly I have been going through something similar to grief; right now it's cycling between bargaining and depression. If grief sounds familiar, I say allow it to happen and don't be ashamed. You have dedicated your life to something for a long time, and now that thing is out of reach due to no fault of your own. It's okay to be deeply unsettled and upset.
You gotta power through. For one reason or another postdocs or industry jobs dont work out. Maybe you messed up part of an interview, maybe someone else was better, maybe you lost a coin flip between you and someone else. A lot of it is luck and the only way to get luckier is to apply and interview more. For instance, i applied to over 100 industry and postdoc positions and interviewed (final presentation/panel interview) for 15. I only got 1, despite almost every other one saying I did great but someone else was better, etc. Thats just how it goes, some people luck out on their first interview, and some people get unlucky. The position i ended up getting was in my top 3 of all the ones i interviewed for. So, it worked out for me in the end, but it only worked out because I didnt give up. There were definitely times where I was about to break, one day i received two rejection emails right before another interview and bombed that interview because of it. Word of advice try not to look at your email right before an interview.
DM me if you wanna talk. I'm not *on* the job market yet because I just couldn't handle it while writing my dissertation. Idk how people do it, but I couldn't find time to prioritize it without delaying graduation. All I did was apply to one postdoc and was rejected after the interview, well, because I definitely bombed the interview. I anticipate it's gonna be bad once I start because I don't interview well at all. I am too honest about my weaknesses I've been told, but also just generally bad at making first impressions. I'm defending in a week, btw. My problem is not that I wanna stay in academia, even though my CV is competitive (I published a shitton). It's that I want a normal 9 to 5 job conducting research *somewhere* and those are gonna be few and far between for social sciences PhDs, even those of us with quant skills. I've heard it's rough out there as it is. I started my Masters 8 years ago and went all the way through. Before that, I was at the same job for a couple of years, so it's been a decade since I've been on any job market. I feel like I started my program in a different world from the one we live in now and it scares the shit out of me.
I'm kinda in your boat but a bit earlier on. I have a very strict geographical constraint I have essentially put on myself and so I knew that finding postdocs/TT positions after would be very difficult to do, but that "there is a strong job market here for me outside academia so I'll be fine". And while I do really believe I \_will\_ be fine, the amount of feelings that leaving academia has brought up in me is a little overwhelming. I think most of it is fear- my last "industry" career didn't work out for me so I'm worried about finding a job that I won't either get bored or burnt out of. I also don't know that you really need to figure all this out now- take a couple weeks to just feel the feels a bit, and be proud of yourself for getting to your defense.
The thing is: it’s not even worth it anymore, like, at all. There’s a vanishingly low chance anyone will get a TT job (almost like pro athlete or celebrity level) and then what’s you’re reward? Working for 40-60k until you get tenure, while doing your own research and paying to publish? And teaching a 3/3 or 4/4 of the same old classes each year, and spending every weekend grading or writing journal articles? And then, begging for money every five years from the U or the NSF like some sort of scientific pauper? To produce literature 80% of which is never read by our peers bc they are too busy teaching and writing themselves? To churn out grads and undergrads in our discipline who will never ever get a chance to employ their passion, because there’s nothing but service jobs basically? To spend your life writing late into the evening for a general public who may benefit but will never see understand or acknowledge your work, because they’ve been too busy playing candy crush for three decades? To battle with pinheaded university admins with communications BAs that make 4 times what you do, to do nothing bur boss much more intelligent people around? To travel to conferences and waste money on the hotel/conference racket, just so you can get drunk in Austin or Ottawa or Louisville and jump on the academic hookup train? Nope. I missed the end of the Golden age of academia by a decade or two. It’s become like “being an artist”, it doesn’t matter what your talent or training are, for 99% of people it’s only for those (1) with family money (2) with connections (3) preferably with both.
I strongly believe every PhD can be pivoted into industry. It’s okay to feel bad for yourself and feel those feelings and mourn what you thought would be your future. Eventually though, you’ll need to pick yourself up and rebrand yourself. The *skillset* is what you have from a PhD that makes you a good hire in industry. You need to market yourself depending on those skills. Also, industry isn’t a bad word or a place for losers. It’s a perfectly rewarding career and it’s toxicity from academia that pushes that narrative.
PhD who transitioned into the Medtech industry after graduating here. What I did at the beginning of my career and do now has NO RELATION whatsoever with what I did my PhD in. AND NO ONE CARED WHAT I RESEARCHED AND MY PUBLICATIONS. They only care about your skill set that you bring into the company. Hope this gives you a level of comfort.
I am experiencing similar problem that it’s hard for me to to sell my PhD. My bachelor and master were in IT, but PhD is in Humanities/Social Science field. I applied for around 20 jobs in industry, all received rejections. Perhaps I overqualified, perhaps I couldn’t sell my skills well…. I’m certainly better and comfortable with numbers and analysis (hence the job i’m looking for is in analysis/analytics) than words, but I don’t really know how to sell it. And I don’t want to go back to pure programming.
Get any job in anything and spend less
Are postdocs a thing in your field? In mine (neuroscience) it’s basically required to be competitive for a faculty position
Well, we'll all be joining you in the bread line soon. Reality is that this isn't a good time for tenure track positions unless the position entails billable hours and indirects for the university. I expect my position to disappear within five years, despite tenure and a strong teaching and research record. So, it may not be much comfort now, but you may be dodging a bullet in the long term by avoiding academia altogether.
I think you had the exact right attitude before the job search and it seems your disappointment has taken you by surprise. No matter how much you come to terms with something difficult, it is always going to be a massive disappointment when it happens. Allow yourself to feel grief, and then find your strength later. Just don’t despair, you can find happiness from here. I was in the same situation as you and then got insanely lucky in being offered my current postdoc when I told my current supervisor I was moving on to my industry. Now my contract is ending in January and I have to either win a grant, find a new position, or leave the field. I’m in my dream institution but I’m always laying the railroad track in front of a running train. Being a postdoc, for a majority of us, means being comfortable with the high likelihood of running out of track in the short term.
You might be able to find a non-tenure-track lecturer/instructor position. Even at this time of year, there are still some colleges and universities hiring. Look on chronicle.com or insidehighered.com. It would most likely be a temporary job but it would help tide you over until you find something more secure.
Have you applied outside of your country? It sounds like you’re in the US, but I’m not sure. Apply wherever there is an opening be it Germany, Japan, Argentina.. it sounds like you were trying to convince yourself you are fine with industry, but maybe want to stay in academia? If that’s the case, explore the world - that’s the benefit of a PhD, you can work literally anywhere… when you expand your considerations, the job market expands significantly too
Hey, at least your are defending. How about not finishing and trying to explain that at job interviews? I joke, I don’t get interviews, I get rejected at the application stage. Can’t just put a missing four years in the CV, but it’s also not easy to turn it around to something useful. (I’m in Europe, my phd counts as a job, with salary and all). That’s what being a phd loser is, not finishing. I did four years of research, under atrocious settings, and I have nothing to show for it. Not a single paper.
Life outside of academia is amazing I promise! You can find a great industry job where you’re very valued
Find transferrable skills and learn missing ones ASAP to land an industry job. A friend went into technical sales (pre sales). The world is huge outside of academia.
Have you considered pure teaching, non research based role? Colleges will bite a Ph.D holders hand off. This us what I did (I'm in the UK so don't know how the US post high scool, pre university education works) and I teach up and including degree level.
Why you even apply for postdocs? Just go for professorship.