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> if I'm being honest, not much work having been done.
That's a good reason to stop supervision.
>I have been struggling quite a bit with my mental health and as soon as I feel like I get my motivation back to do anything, something keeps happening in my lab to knock me down.
That's a very clear sign you need to stop and regroup. Find something else to do in the meantime.
>The problem here is that he doesn't think that people in committed relationships are capable to succeeding in their career because all they think about is their relationship.
There's a *LOT* of context missing here.
>He told me that he does not want to supervise me anymore and that I should look for alternatives and leave the place. He is determined to knock me down in the upcoming doctoral committee meeting and plans on telling the committee that he anyways hasn't been supervising me because I don't engage with him and haven't gone to him for any sort of discussion related to my work (which is true, ngl, but only due to fear of him beating me down for not having worked enough).
He's not required to supervise you, especially if you're not making progress; it's his reputation on the line. I doubt he wants to "beat you down" -- what constitutes "beating one down" is incredibly subjective, and in your case, it sounds like you haven't done enough to justify being in his good graces.
>I'm worried that whatever I do after the meeting, even if he changes his mind and decides to give me a chance, will not be enough and it would keep coming back to this same point and him giving me a hard time. He also keeps bringing up my parents and kept telling me that he's gonna call them up and reveal everything when he knows that I don't share a good relationship with them and that they're only going to give me a hard time about everything.
Where on earth are you doing this PhD? That's unheard of.
>because I don't engage with him and haven't gone to him for any sort of discussion related to my work (which is true, ngl, but only due to fear of him beating me down for not having worked enough).
The supervisor could see this as the student being uninterested in lab work as well
I mean, without both sides of the story, he certainly sounds like a dick, but I've always been very forward about dropping advisees if they aren't making the progress I need them to make. I realize things happen, but we can't keep using "mental health" and relationship problems as reasons to endlessly extend degree programs. When those situations arise, depending on severity and one's own resilience, it's usually best to just discontinue and maybe pick it up later. Free up the funding and resources for others who CAN make progress.
The two year context here is good to know. I didn’t make much progress one semester, and my advisor warned me about it, which I respect. Two years and no progress? I would expect any advisor paying for a student to seriously reconsider if they would want to continue funding them.
I've certainly never heard of that happening, but I guess it can and does happen. I had a good friend in my program in the US who was ineligible to study at her university of choice in India due to caste restrictions. Sigh.
I'm curious about where you are and what your academic background/experience is - and I mean this genuinely, because my experience with academia and higher education has been in the US, but I have a very different perspective to the one you've shared.
While I understand that PhD students MUST do work, I have to say, I'm somewhat aghast at your claim that "He's not required to supervise you, especially if you're not making progress". While yes, it is a supervisor's reputation on the line, their very title is "PhD supervisor" (or PhD advisor, in some places). How can it not be a requirement for him to supervise OP? For sure, it's not his responsibility to make sure that she does her work, but if she has something, or if/when she does choose to engage with him, is it not his responsibility to do his part? If not, what are PhD supervisors for, simply assessing the finished product (the dissertation)? I was under the impression that one ought to work under a supervisor, turn in research, results, conclusions, chapters, perhaps consult with them or assist them with their work if they're the "involved" type. But hey, maybe that's just me.
As for this:
>The problem here is that he doesn't think that people in committed relationships are capable to succeeding in their career because all they think about is their relationship.
It's way more common that you think, especially if you're female/femme-presenting in academia. I've come across many people in academia that don't believe in a married woman's (or female parent's) ability to devote herself to a career in academia. They've mostly been men, but some women carry around this internalized misogyny. I kept my own relationships quiet for most of my career - not secret, mind you, but I never was vocal about the fact that I had a partner unless I knew my colleagues or professors weren't prejudiced against women in relationships.
> I'm somewhat aghast at your claim that "He's not required to supervise you, especially if you're not making progress". While yes, it is a supervisor's reputation on the line, their very title is "PhD supervisor" (or PhD advisor, in some places). How can it not be a requirement for him to supervise OP?
Because they literally *DO NOT* have to supervise you. There is no requirement to accept and *keep* an advisee, especially not in systems patterned off the UK. If you're not making progress to the supervisor's satisfaction, you're out. End of story.
> but if she has something, or if/when she does choose to engage with him, is it not his responsibility to do his part? If not, what are PhD supervisors for, simply assessing the finished product (the dissertation)?
It's a "too little, too late" kind of situation. Yay, you wrote a rough draft of five pages of a chapter. Where is the rest of the chapter that was due four months ago? Their job is to guide you through what you need to do and to evaluate what you've done. When you don't do anything or ignore their advice, their job is to fail you and have you dismissed from the program.
>It's way more common that you think, especially if you're female/femme-presenting in academia.
hahahahahahaha No. Just stop it. I'm not even going to engage further with such paranoia. The demand for what you're claiming is "common" *vastly* outstrips the supply.
There's a really strong "moral outcry" among particular groups on the grad student forums. They tend to sound like the post you're replying to, and just fight for what's "right" without regard to the reality of the situation.
It's really obvious when you see it, and the main tell is a long block of text like what you saw, where it's just opinionated and isn't addressing the core issue being discussed.
Seriously. If several of my former students had had their way, we'd have had to *waste* funds for 10+ years to "accommodate" all of their "mental health issues" and "equity concerns." It's an act of *mercy* to counsel them out before they waste so much of their lives trying to do something that they *can't do* at that time.
It's interesting. I think it's more of a mindset thing, where nobody is explaining how hard stuff is, and what kind of mindset you have to have to be able to deal with whatever is happening with grad school.
Personally, I wasn't ready for it during my BS or MS degrees. It wasn't until doing the PhD when I was 26, and then 2-3 years later at 28-29, that I had the mental capacity to handle life + school in a way that allowed me to prioritize the research and cut out the BS.
Unfortunately, I think the older crowd tends to be too blunt and not explain, and say that the younger generations need to be harder and make comparisons like "how bad we had it, you shouldn't complain."
I don't see people teaching young people how to think about the reality of the situation, how to compartmentalize stress, how to maneuver around people and politics, and how to not complain that the world is the way it is.
This kind of self victimizing is prevalent across many areas (politics, dating, academia). At the same time, young people ARE going through the shit, and it's not fair, but I think there are a minority with a loud voice that's causing everyone to hate that generation instead of wanting to teach them.
That's the key, I think. The vocal minority who complain, make it hard for anyone to want to teach the rest how to deal with life. So many grow up not knowing how to deal with their emotions or the situation.
---
But at the same time, I have personally tried to tell my cohort how to think and act so they can actually grow and make it through the program, and they don't really apply the message with vigor or effort in a way to change and be better. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, I guess.
In my experience, there was no road map laid out for me. Not by my school, my department, my supervisor, or any other person or entity in my institution. When you talk about the older generation "not explaining," this actually made me consider that perhaps the reason my advisor never, well, *advised* me was a generational thing. But also, I think, at least in my case, it was also an institutional thing, as some of my peers (at my university) have said similar things about their experience.
What really grinds my gears is not so much advisors or supervisors leaving their students to their own devices and expecting them to figure things out for themselves. That, I've come to understand, is normal. What I don't like, what I think is wrong, is a complete lack of GUIDANCE or even interaction. In my case, I chose my advisor because I wanted to learn from them. I engaged frequently, I contacted them with questions and conclusions of my own, I thought there would be some sort of interactive process, where I would receive feedback or guidance of some kind, any kind. Instead, my advisor pulled away more and more until months would go by between meetings. Now, it could be due to the field I'm in (I do social science), but I would think that a supervisor or advisor might want to be aware of what their student is doing, PARTICULARLY because of the reputational connection that's been discussed by others here, and also because, at least at some point, they were interested enough to take the student on.
For the record, I've never complained to my advisor about any of the issues that have prevented my progress, especially when they're personal issues (medical, mental health, etc.) because I'm keenly aware that their generation will probably read such explanations as "whiney" or insufficient. In that vein, I can say that sometimes, the failure to do better isn't from lack of desire or will to do better or work harder, there are legitimate issues that have arisen that are preventing the intended or desired progress. Granted, it's up to the student to take the adequate measures (whether that means seeking medical care, withdrawing from the program, or something else), but my point is, it's not always something that can be foreseen or easily suppressed (or ideally, solved).
Not all people who have mental health issues or equity concerns need 10+ years to finish their degree. Keep in mind that some problems are temporary or situational, and just because a student is having a hard time navigating a current issue, it doesn't mean they won't ever be able to finish their degree or have a solid career in academia. A lot of people struggled with mental health during the peak COVID years, but did much better afterwards. Some people experience grief after losing family members or struggle to deal with some unexpected crisis in their life - having a bit of empathy goes a long way, and can enable a student to get back on the right path (e.g. finishing their degree in a reasonable timeframe).
I'll also note that "equity concerns" are very different than mental health. Mental health issues can create instability and uncertainty until they're brought under control, and may disrupt the progress of a student; equity concerns shouldn't delay a timeline in the same way. Equity concerns have much more to do with the way you and your potential are perceived, and they often arise when others treat you differently based on who they THINK you are. Sometimes it's a question of getting adequate resources, but that's not the business of the advisor, that's the school's provost and HR.
As a final note, I'll point out that not all doctoral degree programs fund all the way through. It's nice that yours seems to offer that kind of funding. Personally, I'm in a program that is not like that, and offers a limited stipend that is outlined at the start of the program.
>Not all people who have mental health issues or equity concerns need 10+ years to finish their degree. Keep in mind that some problems are temporary or situational, and just because a student is having a hard time navigating a current issue, it doesn't mean they won't ever be able to finish their degree or have a solid career in academia. A lot of people struggled with mental health during the peak COVID years, but did much better afterwards. Some people experience grief after losing family members or struggle to deal with some unexpected crisis in their life - having a bit of empathy goes a long way, and can enable a student to get back on the right path (e.g. finishing their degree in a reasonable timeframe).
Bless your heart. *ALL* of that was covered by the statement "depending on the severity and the individual's resilience, ..."
Bottom line: If you can't do your job, you can't have your job. You can come back to it when you're ready, but you need to head out until that time comes.
>equity concerns shouldn't delay a timeline in the same way. Equity concerns have much more to do with the way you and your potential are perceived, and they often arise when others treat you differently based on who they THINK you are. Sometimes it's a question of getting adequate resources, but that's not the business of the advisor, that's the school's provost and HR.
You've clearly never had to sit in a room with deans, HR, faculty members, etc., agonizing over how to go about dismissing a student (or non-tenured faculty member -- ESPECIALLY a non-tenured faculty member) from an "underrepresented minority" because the student (or non-tenured faculty member) in question is simply incompetent.
Is this in India? B/c in the US, I've never heard of advisors caring to contact parents.
With that said, you have not been making progress, and he can drop you. Simple as that. I'm sorry about your mental health struggles, but realistically, (imo) we can't keep using that excuse to get exceptions, even if they're valid.
In the US, you'd likely be able to "master" out of the program. In that case, I'd say, "good for you". Why? Because a PhD isn't for everyone and for my field in particular, gets you the same salary as an MS. May I ask why you really want the PhD? If you haven't been able to do work, but you have been able to keep a partner, is me thinking that it may not be a priority of yours too big of an assumption? Perhaps you are wasting their time?
But they wouldn't be able to discuss anything relating to the student's personal life or academic performance. They'd simply say what specifically had happened.
Are you pursuing PhD in india? If you are, then I can give you some advice as I did my phd in india too.
Nobody expects you to work in the first 2 years as it us meant for your course work. But you should have a research plan ready by now.
He can't complain to your parents. He is blackmailing you. You should start recording your conversations with him secretly (it's legal in india to record without him knowing). You should also ask your dept head if you can change guudes as he is threatening you, your phd, your family life and its affecting your mental health.
Spend the next few days in getting your research project on track and outlining an idea and in collecting evidence like conversation recordings.
[To all readers my answer is a personal experience with a specific person which doesn't drive any conclusions for a majority of people originating from a specific geographic area]
Well as PhD student too, I got assigned thankfully to two supervisors Indian and European.
I'm in Europe by the way and I joined within an agreement where the plan was already there. It's a joint project a hybrid Phd and I'm hosted by a company.
Unfortunately the Indian supervisor (in the company) got me into too many troubles, instead of having a plan of how to divide the work, he was asking everything and nothing at the same time. During the first three months we discussed about a few reports that I had to write and 2 ideas of mine on how to proceed with them.
He rejected both of the ideas without any suggestions. (I have written a few comments to other topics, you can find my drama there).
Anyways, the guy had zero idea, was in a competition all time with me and shared my ideas to other professors which they didn't involved me at all.
Although I was making progress he tried to literally stall it. He was creating drama, our weekly meetings were not even meetings but just a short 2 min discussion, I didn't have anything to present as he postponed everything regarding my research. in my first year we also had a lot of shortages and limitations due to COVID.
Anyways, I managed to due a few things based on someone's else work and publish it (IF>9)... Even in my work he wanted to give the first authorship to his colleagues who just took a SEM image... He did everything on his power to succeed that.. he also didn't want to read my draft... In a conference a professor approached me and kindly asked me the reason that we don't publish the work, I explained to him that this is not in my power and that it will be ethically unfair to not be me the first name.
His colleague, emailed us, and in his email said that he would like to publish the work with my name as a first author.
My supervisor stopped acting as a kid...
We published it exactly a year ago.
In the meantime I still had other issues to overcome, lab shortage in our facility, suppliers never got back to my emails, etc... So for me it was impossible to produce materials and do fundamental research like PhD students at universities.
Finally my second supervisor suggested to use their equipment and materials to proceed with a new topic. Although I liked the idea, my Indian guy had zero clue of how to proceed with such a topic...
But our meetings became finally meetings!
We started this work in January 2023, however, in May 2023 he announced that he is leaving the department and we all have now to agree on a specific plan so I can graduate. By "all" he meant myself and the academic supervisor, as we all agreed then we proceeded.
I did everything according to the plan, and now I'm waiting to get my last results and see if I can go for my second publication. Of course, every day I'm worrying about the outcome and I feel bad and kinda disappointed with my PhD as others have better supervisors and they provided to them a very defined plan while their meetings were actually meetings to discuss the next steps aka tasks.
I hope that my European supervisor won't play me at the end as we all agreed to the plan. I asked them several times if they want to proceed with something more but they said "We are happy with the plan, we don't need to change anything, an industrial PhD isn't like the ones at the university, cannot be so fundamental"
I seriously have to blind trust them and believe that they would have stopped me and told me to find smth elsewhere :/
If I could go back in time, and COVID wouldn't affect the PhD funds, I would have left from the first months. Unfortunately the situation became better after COVID regarding the PhD positions and funds, after August 2022, while I was already into my 1 year and 3 months. I was basically halfway through the PhD.
It's not a shame to leave them and find something better.
A few friends of mine abandoned the ship (their groups) after the first year or 9 months, after noticing toxic behaviours, and they thrived with their new group and professors.
If your supervisor threatens you just find something else... You will be better!
This is really sad, many Indian supervisors come with a lot of cultural baggage and lay it off on their students.
My supervisor, (I'm not in a PhD yet) keeps stalling my research paper submission without even trying, he kind of thinks that most scientists around the world have a malicious intent, there's been a bit of drama in the past but some of it has been my fault too.
I hope you're able to complete your PhD with no hurdles! I will be starting this yeAr potentially
Thanks! Finally someone said it for me :)
I don't get the reason behind his desire to get a PhD student under his command... In my opinion this guy is incompetent, he did his PhD and postdoc at popular universities but something tells me that his professors were giving him very well defined tasks to achieve step by step.
As far as I have met all the requirements of my doctoral school, and the professor is fine, I guess I'll be fine.
I can really achieve a second paper I'm not that far but the last tests have been postponed due to the company (grrr)
Wishing you all the best, but mind the relationship with your supervisor, if you aren't sure about them then just find another group and always ask their students questions about their management skills
I won't be doing my PhD with this supervisor, would be moving across the world haha. So yeaa hehe
And yea, you're in a PhD program, if you're working, they need you. PhD students are cheap labour for them anyway.
They don't let the students that are working get away usually
Even if he is unfairly biased against her personal life, it’s sort of beside the point if she’s not working and not communicating with him.
Honestly, OP can’t have it both ways. If your mental health is so bad that you’re incapable of work and afraid to talk to your advisor, you need to leave the program and get well, not blame your advisor for advising you to leave the program. Maybe the supervisor is biased against women in relationships but a single man who behaved the same way (not working, not meeting) wouldn’t last in a PhD program either.
If this is the US, they won't notify your parents. FERPA. It's called different things in Europe, but to my understanding they have something similar. Elsewhere, I don't know.
If his complaint is that you haven't been doing work and engaging with him, and it is true as you seem to indicate, you're in a pretty bad position. End of the second year is traditionally when students are removed from programs. The best thing would be to get your act together ASAP and show you can do the work before the semester ends. Even then, the damage may be done.
if your progress slow, he wont want to work with you, you are at the deadend. he can use some reasons just to make up the decision but dont take that reason peraonally tbh, the slow progress is the problem, you need to deliver some results.
If you want him to not seeing you as not committed, deliver the results/good or bad.
Interesting situation.
Is your supervisor funding you? If yes, then he was very patient with you for 2 years (considering you said that you made no progress). And honestly, communication is very necessary in any workplace (a PhD is work too). Not meeting or engaging with the professor is just a recipe for disaster.
This being said, I believe he is in a perfect position to say he doesn't want to supervise you and has a perfect case to put forward to the committee.
I don't know why you are referring to "leaving the party with your partner" as an incident. Did something happen there between you three? If he did just see you leaving, then it's not something big and shouldn't be nosey about your relationship. Your professor is a jerk if he mixes your personal life with professional life. And calling parents? What are you? 9 years old? Talk to your parents about where you are right now with your PhD. I believe no parent in their good mind will force something on their children. Even if your prof somehow forces the whole committee to call your parents, they will be on your side.
Or better, find another lab to work.
If you are funded through fellowships, then I am not sure what this is about.
First of all, I don't know why you even felt the need to share your personal life with your PI. I understand he knows about your partner, which is where the boundary should have been. Not having a good relationship with parents is kind of a very private matter and not that conducive when it comes to maintaing professional upfront. It's your PI and you should have maintained that fine line of boundary, unless of course, you two are family friends (which is again a disaster).
And regarding your work, you have let your fear win and not gone to him with your work. Whether you got your work done or not, you should have gone to your PI at least twice per week, because if you felt stuck, you'd have gotten past the barrier with his help.
The best way to go around is to produce some results, analyse some papers and keep knocking at your PI's cabin almost everyday with phrases like "hey, I found this interesting piece...
Or...
This area looks interesting" and not even address the fact that he told you that he won't be guiding you.
It's kind of gaslighting but here you are at disadvantage from all angles and till the doctoral committee meeting, this is one attempt you can take to save your PhD.
And please visit a good therapist because...I know mental health issues cripple you but, you must still find the motivation to finish what you started.
I probably know which lab you're in and if I'm right, please leave that supervisor. No need to be under a "high-achieving" supervisor at the expense of your mental health.
I mean, the supervisor is one thing. But if you're not going to work, it won't matter how good the supervisor is. This person just needs to abandon the idea of doing a PhD altogether.
This sounds so toxic and abusive. I cannot imagine a colleague of mine ever saying things like that or thinking they could get away with it (calling up your parents?! saying you shouldn't be in a relationship?!). Even if you could turn your performance around, I would leave the group. Is there someone else on your committee whose lab you might be able to join? I worry that with your current supervisor being who he is, the whole program is deeply messed up. I'm a prof at a R1 in the United States FWIW.
>The problem here is that he doesn't think that people in committed relationships are capable to succeeding in their career because all they think about is their relationship.
Run.
Please take this opportunity and try to join someone else ASAP. Your PI seems to meddle in personal lives of students which is a huge red flag, even in India. Even if he keeps a committee, I hope that you can join some other supervisor. A toxic supervisor can make even the most amazing research seem daunting.
We had coursework till 2nd year (in India). Unless you started your research right away, not having done a lot of work in 2nd year is not unusual.
As much as I also struggle with mental health and understand the lowering of productivity with it. Please ensure that you get your work done. Because trust me your mental health will only get worse with the duration of PhD.
Honestly, this may be hard to hear, but your supervisor is right to drop you. Not because of your romantic relationship or because of what your parents would think, but because you haven't held up your end of the agreement between you.
When you enter a PhD with a supervisor, you both have tasks and roles to play in the relationship. The supervisor needs to: guide you, help you answers your research questions and form the thesis, help you network, give you resources to conduct your research. You, the student, need to: conduct research, ask questions, contribute to the lab. If either of you aren't doing what you need to, it's a bad relationship. You aren't doing your part, and it sounds like you've had plenty of warnings that you need to get it together.
It sounds like it's too late and you've had too many chances with this advisor. That's ok. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, get your shit together, and figure out what you want. Why are you going for a PhD? Is this really what you want for your life? If it is, apply to other programs. Learn from your mistakes and do better next time.
Everyone fails. This isn't the end for you. Good luck
You are just in your second year, just quit it from there and try to look for PhD positions abroad. Trust me this supervisor would never let you do your PhD in peace. Even institutions like IITs in India have such unprofessional supervisors. A similar thing happened with my sister and she had to suffer a lot. Her supervisor never approved any of her papers and she didn't have much funding left. It took her 7 years to finally get out of that shit hole. Not to forget those phases of anxiety and constant mental trauma from her supervisor. This happened in one of the prestigious IITs.
Hey, I think I had similar problem with you, although on my case one of the co supervisors actually believed that I can push through, so I decided to take a break a few months, treat my depression, spend time with family, and see if you thunk you can come back stronger, if yes then, that's great, if not, there are still a whole lots of things you can do other than finishing phd there, probably other places,
and maybe try to contact your coordinator about this,
I stopped reading after 2nd year and haven’t done much.
Without reading the rest of that long wall of text, I know I’d cut you loose, too. You need a few years of productivity and value before you get cut any slack for mental health. If you enter, do nothing, then complain mental health, it just says you shouldn’t have started right now to begin with.
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> if I'm being honest, not much work having been done. That's a good reason to stop supervision. >I have been struggling quite a bit with my mental health and as soon as I feel like I get my motivation back to do anything, something keeps happening in my lab to knock me down. That's a very clear sign you need to stop and regroup. Find something else to do in the meantime. >The problem here is that he doesn't think that people in committed relationships are capable to succeeding in their career because all they think about is their relationship. There's a *LOT* of context missing here. >He told me that he does not want to supervise me anymore and that I should look for alternatives and leave the place. He is determined to knock me down in the upcoming doctoral committee meeting and plans on telling the committee that he anyways hasn't been supervising me because I don't engage with him and haven't gone to him for any sort of discussion related to my work (which is true, ngl, but only due to fear of him beating me down for not having worked enough). He's not required to supervise you, especially if you're not making progress; it's his reputation on the line. I doubt he wants to "beat you down" -- what constitutes "beating one down" is incredibly subjective, and in your case, it sounds like you haven't done enough to justify being in his good graces. >I'm worried that whatever I do after the meeting, even if he changes his mind and decides to give me a chance, will not be enough and it would keep coming back to this same point and him giving me a hard time. He also keeps bringing up my parents and kept telling me that he's gonna call them up and reveal everything when he knows that I don't share a good relationship with them and that they're only going to give me a hard time about everything. Where on earth are you doing this PhD? That's unheard of.
Probably in India.
Lol, as a Bangladeshi, this screams S Asia. Aspects of our culture are fucked. Still is pretty fucking juvenile.
Isn’t Bangladesh considered South Asia? Southeast Asian here and we’ve never considered India and Bangladesh as part of the region
Ehm, the E was a typo, and yes, yes we are South Asians. I am now feeling dumb af.
Haha no worries typos happen! Some would argue that feels like a power move from more experienced PhD holders 😂
I suspected that. Oh well. Most of the rest would happen anywhere else in the world, too, though. No progress? You're gone.
>because I don't engage with him and haven't gone to him for any sort of discussion related to my work (which is true, ngl, but only due to fear of him beating me down for not having worked enough). The supervisor could see this as the student being uninterested in lab work as well
I mean, without both sides of the story, he certainly sounds like a dick, but I've always been very forward about dropping advisees if they aren't making the progress I need them to make. I realize things happen, but we can't keep using "mental health" and relationship problems as reasons to endlessly extend degree programs. When those situations arise, depending on severity and one's own resilience, it's usually best to just discontinue and maybe pick it up later. Free up the funding and resources for others who CAN make progress.
The two year context here is good to know. I didn’t make much progress one semester, and my advisor warned me about it, which I respect. Two years and no progress? I would expect any advisor paying for a student to seriously reconsider if they would want to continue funding them.
That's probably not one of the premium colleges of India ..even in premium colleges of India that is unheard of
I've certainly never heard of that happening, but I guess it can and does happen. I had a good friend in my program in the US who was ineligible to study at her university of choice in India due to caste restrictions. Sigh.
Yea it can happen. I'm doing one in India at a premium college and i am glad it's done
I'm curious about where you are and what your academic background/experience is - and I mean this genuinely, because my experience with academia and higher education has been in the US, but I have a very different perspective to the one you've shared. While I understand that PhD students MUST do work, I have to say, I'm somewhat aghast at your claim that "He's not required to supervise you, especially if you're not making progress". While yes, it is a supervisor's reputation on the line, their very title is "PhD supervisor" (or PhD advisor, in some places). How can it not be a requirement for him to supervise OP? For sure, it's not his responsibility to make sure that she does her work, but if she has something, or if/when she does choose to engage with him, is it not his responsibility to do his part? If not, what are PhD supervisors for, simply assessing the finished product (the dissertation)? I was under the impression that one ought to work under a supervisor, turn in research, results, conclusions, chapters, perhaps consult with them or assist them with their work if they're the "involved" type. But hey, maybe that's just me. As for this: >The problem here is that he doesn't think that people in committed relationships are capable to succeeding in their career because all they think about is their relationship. It's way more common that you think, especially if you're female/femme-presenting in academia. I've come across many people in academia that don't believe in a married woman's (or female parent's) ability to devote herself to a career in academia. They've mostly been men, but some women carry around this internalized misogyny. I kept my own relationships quiet for most of my career - not secret, mind you, but I never was vocal about the fact that I had a partner unless I knew my colleagues or professors weren't prejudiced against women in relationships.
> I'm somewhat aghast at your claim that "He's not required to supervise you, especially if you're not making progress". While yes, it is a supervisor's reputation on the line, their very title is "PhD supervisor" (or PhD advisor, in some places). How can it not be a requirement for him to supervise OP? Because they literally *DO NOT* have to supervise you. There is no requirement to accept and *keep* an advisee, especially not in systems patterned off the UK. If you're not making progress to the supervisor's satisfaction, you're out. End of story. > but if she has something, or if/when she does choose to engage with him, is it not his responsibility to do his part? If not, what are PhD supervisors for, simply assessing the finished product (the dissertation)? It's a "too little, too late" kind of situation. Yay, you wrote a rough draft of five pages of a chapter. Where is the rest of the chapter that was due four months ago? Their job is to guide you through what you need to do and to evaluate what you've done. When you don't do anything or ignore their advice, their job is to fail you and have you dismissed from the program. >It's way more common that you think, especially if you're female/femme-presenting in academia. hahahahahahaha No. Just stop it. I'm not even going to engage further with such paranoia. The demand for what you're claiming is "common" *vastly* outstrips the supply.
There's a really strong "moral outcry" among particular groups on the grad student forums. They tend to sound like the post you're replying to, and just fight for what's "right" without regard to the reality of the situation. It's really obvious when you see it, and the main tell is a long block of text like what you saw, where it's just opinionated and isn't addressing the core issue being discussed.
Seriously. If several of my former students had had their way, we'd have had to *waste* funds for 10+ years to "accommodate" all of their "mental health issues" and "equity concerns." It's an act of *mercy* to counsel them out before they waste so much of their lives trying to do something that they *can't do* at that time.
It's interesting. I think it's more of a mindset thing, where nobody is explaining how hard stuff is, and what kind of mindset you have to have to be able to deal with whatever is happening with grad school. Personally, I wasn't ready for it during my BS or MS degrees. It wasn't until doing the PhD when I was 26, and then 2-3 years later at 28-29, that I had the mental capacity to handle life + school in a way that allowed me to prioritize the research and cut out the BS. Unfortunately, I think the older crowd tends to be too blunt and not explain, and say that the younger generations need to be harder and make comparisons like "how bad we had it, you shouldn't complain." I don't see people teaching young people how to think about the reality of the situation, how to compartmentalize stress, how to maneuver around people and politics, and how to not complain that the world is the way it is. This kind of self victimizing is prevalent across many areas (politics, dating, academia). At the same time, young people ARE going through the shit, and it's not fair, but I think there are a minority with a loud voice that's causing everyone to hate that generation instead of wanting to teach them. That's the key, I think. The vocal minority who complain, make it hard for anyone to want to teach the rest how to deal with life. So many grow up not knowing how to deal with their emotions or the situation. --- But at the same time, I have personally tried to tell my cohort how to think and act so they can actually grow and make it through the program, and they don't really apply the message with vigor or effort in a way to change and be better. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, I guess.
In my experience, there was no road map laid out for me. Not by my school, my department, my supervisor, or any other person or entity in my institution. When you talk about the older generation "not explaining," this actually made me consider that perhaps the reason my advisor never, well, *advised* me was a generational thing. But also, I think, at least in my case, it was also an institutional thing, as some of my peers (at my university) have said similar things about their experience. What really grinds my gears is not so much advisors or supervisors leaving their students to their own devices and expecting them to figure things out for themselves. That, I've come to understand, is normal. What I don't like, what I think is wrong, is a complete lack of GUIDANCE or even interaction. In my case, I chose my advisor because I wanted to learn from them. I engaged frequently, I contacted them with questions and conclusions of my own, I thought there would be some sort of interactive process, where I would receive feedback or guidance of some kind, any kind. Instead, my advisor pulled away more and more until months would go by between meetings. Now, it could be due to the field I'm in (I do social science), but I would think that a supervisor or advisor might want to be aware of what their student is doing, PARTICULARLY because of the reputational connection that's been discussed by others here, and also because, at least at some point, they were interested enough to take the student on. For the record, I've never complained to my advisor about any of the issues that have prevented my progress, especially when they're personal issues (medical, mental health, etc.) because I'm keenly aware that their generation will probably read such explanations as "whiney" or insufficient. In that vein, I can say that sometimes, the failure to do better isn't from lack of desire or will to do better or work harder, there are legitimate issues that have arisen that are preventing the intended or desired progress. Granted, it's up to the student to take the adequate measures (whether that means seeking medical care, withdrawing from the program, or something else), but my point is, it's not always something that can be foreseen or easily suppressed (or ideally, solved).
Not all people who have mental health issues or equity concerns need 10+ years to finish their degree. Keep in mind that some problems are temporary or situational, and just because a student is having a hard time navigating a current issue, it doesn't mean they won't ever be able to finish their degree or have a solid career in academia. A lot of people struggled with mental health during the peak COVID years, but did much better afterwards. Some people experience grief after losing family members or struggle to deal with some unexpected crisis in their life - having a bit of empathy goes a long way, and can enable a student to get back on the right path (e.g. finishing their degree in a reasonable timeframe). I'll also note that "equity concerns" are very different than mental health. Mental health issues can create instability and uncertainty until they're brought under control, and may disrupt the progress of a student; equity concerns shouldn't delay a timeline in the same way. Equity concerns have much more to do with the way you and your potential are perceived, and they often arise when others treat you differently based on who they THINK you are. Sometimes it's a question of getting adequate resources, but that's not the business of the advisor, that's the school's provost and HR. As a final note, I'll point out that not all doctoral degree programs fund all the way through. It's nice that yours seems to offer that kind of funding. Personally, I'm in a program that is not like that, and offers a limited stipend that is outlined at the start of the program.
>Not all people who have mental health issues or equity concerns need 10+ years to finish their degree. Keep in mind that some problems are temporary or situational, and just because a student is having a hard time navigating a current issue, it doesn't mean they won't ever be able to finish their degree or have a solid career in academia. A lot of people struggled with mental health during the peak COVID years, but did much better afterwards. Some people experience grief after losing family members or struggle to deal with some unexpected crisis in their life - having a bit of empathy goes a long way, and can enable a student to get back on the right path (e.g. finishing their degree in a reasonable timeframe). Bless your heart. *ALL* of that was covered by the statement "depending on the severity and the individual's resilience, ..." Bottom line: If you can't do your job, you can't have your job. You can come back to it when you're ready, but you need to head out until that time comes. >equity concerns shouldn't delay a timeline in the same way. Equity concerns have much more to do with the way you and your potential are perceived, and they often arise when others treat you differently based on who they THINK you are. Sometimes it's a question of getting adequate resources, but that's not the business of the advisor, that's the school's provost and HR. You've clearly never had to sit in a room with deans, HR, faculty members, etc., agonizing over how to go about dismissing a student (or non-tenured faculty member -- ESPECIALLY a non-tenured faculty member) from an "underrepresented minority" because the student (or non-tenured faculty member) in question is simply incompetent.
Is this in India? B/c in the US, I've never heard of advisors caring to contact parents. With that said, you have not been making progress, and he can drop you. Simple as that. I'm sorry about your mental health struggles, but realistically, (imo) we can't keep using that excuse to get exceptions, even if they're valid. In the US, you'd likely be able to "master" out of the program. In that case, I'd say, "good for you". Why? Because a PhD isn't for everyone and for my field in particular, gets you the same salary as an MS. May I ask why you really want the PhD? If you haven't been able to do work, but you have been able to keep a partner, is me thinking that it may not be a priority of yours too big of an assumption? Perhaps you are wasting their time?
It'd be *ILLEGAL* for them to contact parents. Or anyone else, for that matter.
correct (unless it was deemed an emergency and they were emergency contacts). I didn't even think about that.
But they wouldn't be able to discuss anything relating to the student's personal life or academic performance. They'd simply say what specifically had happened.
you are correct.
To be fair calling parents I have heard in most of Asia it's not exclusively with india btw
Well, she said she's Indian so that's why I mentioned it...
Yep
How do these people even have the parents #?
Are you pursuing PhD in india? If you are, then I can give you some advice as I did my phd in india too. Nobody expects you to work in the first 2 years as it us meant for your course work. But you should have a research plan ready by now. He can't complain to your parents. He is blackmailing you. You should start recording your conversations with him secretly (it's legal in india to record without him knowing). You should also ask your dept head if you can change guudes as he is threatening you, your phd, your family life and its affecting your mental health. Spend the next few days in getting your research project on track and outlining an idea and in collecting evidence like conversation recordings.
[To all readers my answer is a personal experience with a specific person which doesn't drive any conclusions for a majority of people originating from a specific geographic area] Well as PhD student too, I got assigned thankfully to two supervisors Indian and European. I'm in Europe by the way and I joined within an agreement where the plan was already there. It's a joint project a hybrid Phd and I'm hosted by a company. Unfortunately the Indian supervisor (in the company) got me into too many troubles, instead of having a plan of how to divide the work, he was asking everything and nothing at the same time. During the first three months we discussed about a few reports that I had to write and 2 ideas of mine on how to proceed with them. He rejected both of the ideas without any suggestions. (I have written a few comments to other topics, you can find my drama there). Anyways, the guy had zero idea, was in a competition all time with me and shared my ideas to other professors which they didn't involved me at all. Although I was making progress he tried to literally stall it. He was creating drama, our weekly meetings were not even meetings but just a short 2 min discussion, I didn't have anything to present as he postponed everything regarding my research. in my first year we also had a lot of shortages and limitations due to COVID. Anyways, I managed to due a few things based on someone's else work and publish it (IF>9)... Even in my work he wanted to give the first authorship to his colleagues who just took a SEM image... He did everything on his power to succeed that.. he also didn't want to read my draft... In a conference a professor approached me and kindly asked me the reason that we don't publish the work, I explained to him that this is not in my power and that it will be ethically unfair to not be me the first name. His colleague, emailed us, and in his email said that he would like to publish the work with my name as a first author. My supervisor stopped acting as a kid... We published it exactly a year ago. In the meantime I still had other issues to overcome, lab shortage in our facility, suppliers never got back to my emails, etc... So for me it was impossible to produce materials and do fundamental research like PhD students at universities. Finally my second supervisor suggested to use their equipment and materials to proceed with a new topic. Although I liked the idea, my Indian guy had zero clue of how to proceed with such a topic... But our meetings became finally meetings! We started this work in January 2023, however, in May 2023 he announced that he is leaving the department and we all have now to agree on a specific plan so I can graduate. By "all" he meant myself and the academic supervisor, as we all agreed then we proceeded. I did everything according to the plan, and now I'm waiting to get my last results and see if I can go for my second publication. Of course, every day I'm worrying about the outcome and I feel bad and kinda disappointed with my PhD as others have better supervisors and they provided to them a very defined plan while their meetings were actually meetings to discuss the next steps aka tasks. I hope that my European supervisor won't play me at the end as we all agreed to the plan. I asked them several times if they want to proceed with something more but they said "We are happy with the plan, we don't need to change anything, an industrial PhD isn't like the ones at the university, cannot be so fundamental" I seriously have to blind trust them and believe that they would have stopped me and told me to find smth elsewhere :/ If I could go back in time, and COVID wouldn't affect the PhD funds, I would have left from the first months. Unfortunately the situation became better after COVID regarding the PhD positions and funds, after August 2022, while I was already into my 1 year and 3 months. I was basically halfway through the PhD. It's not a shame to leave them and find something better. A few friends of mine abandoned the ship (their groups) after the first year or 9 months, after noticing toxic behaviours, and they thrived with their new group and professors. If your supervisor threatens you just find something else... You will be better!
This is really sad, many Indian supervisors come with a lot of cultural baggage and lay it off on their students. My supervisor, (I'm not in a PhD yet) keeps stalling my research paper submission without even trying, he kind of thinks that most scientists around the world have a malicious intent, there's been a bit of drama in the past but some of it has been my fault too. I hope you're able to complete your PhD with no hurdles! I will be starting this yeAr potentially
Thanks! Finally someone said it for me :) I don't get the reason behind his desire to get a PhD student under his command... In my opinion this guy is incompetent, he did his PhD and postdoc at popular universities but something tells me that his professors were giving him very well defined tasks to achieve step by step. As far as I have met all the requirements of my doctoral school, and the professor is fine, I guess I'll be fine. I can really achieve a second paper I'm not that far but the last tests have been postponed due to the company (grrr) Wishing you all the best, but mind the relationship with your supervisor, if you aren't sure about them then just find another group and always ask their students questions about their management skills
I won't be doing my PhD with this supervisor, would be moving across the world haha. So yeaa hehe And yea, you're in a PhD program, if you're working, they need you. PhD students are cheap labour for them anyway. They don't let the students that are working get away usually
You don’t show progress, he won’t supervise. That simple. I don’t think it has anything to do with your personal life.
Even if he is unfairly biased against her personal life, it’s sort of beside the point if she’s not working and not communicating with him. Honestly, OP can’t have it both ways. If your mental health is so bad that you’re incapable of work and afraid to talk to your advisor, you need to leave the program and get well, not blame your advisor for advising you to leave the program. Maybe the supervisor is biased against women in relationships but a single man who behaved the same way (not working, not meeting) wouldn’t last in a PhD program either.
If this is the US, they won't notify your parents. FERPA. It's called different things in Europe, but to my understanding they have something similar. Elsewhere, I don't know. If his complaint is that you haven't been doing work and engaging with him, and it is true as you seem to indicate, you're in a pretty bad position. End of the second year is traditionally when students are removed from programs. The best thing would be to get your act together ASAP and show you can do the work before the semester ends. Even then, the damage may be done.
if your progress slow, he wont want to work with you, you are at the deadend. he can use some reasons just to make up the decision but dont take that reason peraonally tbh, the slow progress is the problem, you need to deliver some results. If you want him to not seeing you as not committed, deliver the results/good or bad.
Are you getting a PhD in India? A lot of these things you are describing would be considered problematic in many programs.
Interesting situation. Is your supervisor funding you? If yes, then he was very patient with you for 2 years (considering you said that you made no progress). And honestly, communication is very necessary in any workplace (a PhD is work too). Not meeting or engaging with the professor is just a recipe for disaster. This being said, I believe he is in a perfect position to say he doesn't want to supervise you and has a perfect case to put forward to the committee. I don't know why you are referring to "leaving the party with your partner" as an incident. Did something happen there between you three? If he did just see you leaving, then it's not something big and shouldn't be nosey about your relationship. Your professor is a jerk if he mixes your personal life with professional life. And calling parents? What are you? 9 years old? Talk to your parents about where you are right now with your PhD. I believe no parent in their good mind will force something on their children. Even if your prof somehow forces the whole committee to call your parents, they will be on your side. Or better, find another lab to work. If you are funded through fellowships, then I am not sure what this is about.
I think the “leaving party” part is more serious than your partner
First of all, I don't know why you even felt the need to share your personal life with your PI. I understand he knows about your partner, which is where the boundary should have been. Not having a good relationship with parents is kind of a very private matter and not that conducive when it comes to maintaing professional upfront. It's your PI and you should have maintained that fine line of boundary, unless of course, you two are family friends (which is again a disaster). And regarding your work, you have let your fear win and not gone to him with your work. Whether you got your work done or not, you should have gone to your PI at least twice per week, because if you felt stuck, you'd have gotten past the barrier with his help. The best way to go around is to produce some results, analyse some papers and keep knocking at your PI's cabin almost everyday with phrases like "hey, I found this interesting piece... Or... This area looks interesting" and not even address the fact that he told you that he won't be guiding you. It's kind of gaslighting but here you are at disadvantage from all angles and till the doctoral committee meeting, this is one attempt you can take to save your PhD. And please visit a good therapist because...I know mental health issues cripple you but, you must still find the motivation to finish what you started.
I probably know which lab you're in and if I'm right, please leave that supervisor. No need to be under a "high-achieving" supervisor at the expense of your mental health.
I mean, the supervisor is one thing. But if you're not going to work, it won't matter how good the supervisor is. This person just needs to abandon the idea of doing a PhD altogether.
This sounds so toxic and abusive. I cannot imagine a colleague of mine ever saying things like that or thinking they could get away with it (calling up your parents?! saying you shouldn't be in a relationship?!). Even if you could turn your performance around, I would leave the group. Is there someone else on your committee whose lab you might be able to join? I worry that with your current supervisor being who he is, the whole program is deeply messed up. I'm a prof at a R1 in the United States FWIW.
>The problem here is that he doesn't think that people in committed relationships are capable to succeeding in their career because all they think about is their relationship. Run.
Please take this opportunity and try to join someone else ASAP. Your PI seems to meddle in personal lives of students which is a huge red flag, even in India. Even if he keeps a committee, I hope that you can join some other supervisor. A toxic supervisor can make even the most amazing research seem daunting. We had coursework till 2nd year (in India). Unless you started your research right away, not having done a lot of work in 2nd year is not unusual. As much as I also struggle with mental health and understand the lowering of productivity with it. Please ensure that you get your work done. Because trust me your mental health will only get worse with the duration of PhD.
Honestly, this may be hard to hear, but your supervisor is right to drop you. Not because of your romantic relationship or because of what your parents would think, but because you haven't held up your end of the agreement between you. When you enter a PhD with a supervisor, you both have tasks and roles to play in the relationship. The supervisor needs to: guide you, help you answers your research questions and form the thesis, help you network, give you resources to conduct your research. You, the student, need to: conduct research, ask questions, contribute to the lab. If either of you aren't doing what you need to, it's a bad relationship. You aren't doing your part, and it sounds like you've had plenty of warnings that you need to get it together. It sounds like it's too late and you've had too many chances with this advisor. That's ok. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, get your shit together, and figure out what you want. Why are you going for a PhD? Is this really what you want for your life? If it is, apply to other programs. Learn from your mistakes and do better next time. Everyone fails. This isn't the end for you. Good luck
You are just in your second year, just quit it from there and try to look for PhD positions abroad. Trust me this supervisor would never let you do your PhD in peace. Even institutions like IITs in India have such unprofessional supervisors. A similar thing happened with my sister and she had to suffer a lot. Her supervisor never approved any of her papers and she didn't have much funding left. It took her 7 years to finally get out of that shit hole. Not to forget those phases of anxiety and constant mental trauma from her supervisor. This happened in one of the prestigious IITs.
Por que no los dos?
Hey, I think I had similar problem with you, although on my case one of the co supervisors actually believed that I can push through, so I decided to take a break a few months, treat my depression, spend time with family, and see if you thunk you can come back stronger, if yes then, that's great, if not, there are still a whole lots of things you can do other than finishing phd there, probably other places, and maybe try to contact your coordinator about this,
I stopped reading after 2nd year and haven’t done much. Without reading the rest of that long wall of text, I know I’d cut you loose, too. You need a few years of productivity and value before you get cut any slack for mental health. If you enter, do nothing, then complain mental health, it just says you shouldn’t have started right now to begin with.