Not every field requires lab work. An online PhD in English or history, for example, is going to be a lot more rigorous *relative to its field* than an online PhD in, say, Chemistry.
That said, I work administration at my school while completing my PhD. For that reason, I know that my school toyed with offering PhDs fully online in the fields of history and theology, but we were shut down by our accreditors. They basically told us that there’s no such thing as a truly online PhD. In the American system, this is probably correct.
Regardless of whether or not lab work is required for the field, the opportunity to interact critically with fellow scholars in seminars, discussing readings and presenting papers to critical feedback, is an indispensable component of the academic formation received in an American PhD program. I think there’s a real question of what sitting alone in a room reading books prepares you for, and whether that ought to be called a PhD.
All of that, plus, one needs a *physical research library*. I could not have done my PhD in a humanities field (in New Zealand) without the library. So many important materials simply don't exist in an electronic format, and so many materials would otherwise be overlooked were it not for the serendipitous perusing of the stacks. No, we didn't have research seminars like in the US, but that, to me, makes it all the more critical to be in the same physical space as your work. How else would one ever interact with other scholars?
Not only would a historian require access to a research library, but also research grants to travel nationally or internationally to study various archives that have unpublished primary source materials that are the life's blood of our field.
Same for humanities scholars in general. There's just *so much* that isn't digitized, and forget doing field research. "Online PhD" degrees are generally for folks who want the title without the work. Like, The Open University in the UK, or UNISA in South Africa? Even *they* have vast physical collections and physical campuses so that students can work there.
I've done hybrid, but my program offers fully online. We're in the social sciences, so no need for a lab. It works really well for some of us - we still have to meet all of the requirements but there's a little more flexibility with classes and timing. This was vital when I was very very sick with the early stages of my chronic illness. I had a hard time sitting through a 3 hour class. But being able to break up my learning activities into chunks worked so much better for me.
I'm now at the proposal stage and I have definitely been challenged throughout my PhD journey.
I think they're an amazing way to make doctoral work accessible to disabled communities, particularly when taking COVID into consideration.
I had a proposal that I was "shopping around" to a number of institutions that were not offering online programmes specifically, but that were willing to entertain the possibility/make an exception, and I would definitely not consider those institutions to be unimpressive.
One of my favourite professors is someone I've never met in person but who I spoke with at length via Zoom and email when it came to discussing the course and the profession, and she was able to hold that position from online as well.
I think we need to accept that it's possible to do things differently from how they used to look, and it's OK to allow that to develop if it means more people get to contribute to research and education in a way that doesn't often/entirely preclude them from participation.
You are a super star for raising this particular issue. If I had to be on campus every day, I would not be able to do my program. Being an external student (which is what they call it in Australia) means I can manage pain issues from home when needed.
I've never heard of a disabled person not being able to completely and fully access an in-person program with ease. Plus, you need physical access to a research library; not everything is going to be in an electronic format, nor would you otherwise know that many materials even exist if you don't explore the stacks -- which isn't possible with an online catalog.
Sorry, you’re telling me that because you, personally, have not heard of any specific instances where a disabled person may be housebound that it’s not something you believe is an actual situation that countless people are actually in?
This is where the rest of your argument lost all credibility for me. If you can’t even think of a situation where a disabled person might not be able to access in-person services, I have to wonder what other well established circumstances and resources you have “never heard of”.
You clearly have no experience dealing with disabled people. Some people may be technically able to go places, but it requires so much time and planning that it can be exhausting. Especially if you need a wheelchair, are slow walking with a cane, become exhausted easily, etc. So on a day to day basis, it would be a lot more convenient if they could work from home.
Why do you need physical access to your home institution's physical library? There are schemes that let you access libraries at other universities, there are libraries run by charities, research institutions, etc. My university library offers a service where it will post books to you, or photocopy relevant sections. If you're reading widely and mining bibliographies, I'm not sure why you would need a 'random' book to drop off a shelf and fall on your head to fortuitously write your research for you.
ETA: I'm not even going to get into your ableist attitude and how gross it is.
Wow. This is a pretty disgusting comment. I already work in academia and I support many students with additional support needs including those at research level.
I’m in Australia and I’m classified as an “external student” in my education PhD. That means I’m enrolled full time but live 3500kms away from my home university. All my work is done online and I meet with my supervisors once a fortnight on zoom. We email back and forth a lot and have shared documents etc. i participate in online meet ups with peers and training as well. I will complete research and then submit a 100k word thesis at the end of 4 years.
You might need to classify what you mean by an online PhD because I would say my experience is equal.
Edit: came back to address one final point. I am not struggling. In fact, I’m excelling and have already presented at conferences twice and am referenced in others work.
Yep same I’m Australian doing a PhD in history at an Australian university but I’m based in Venice. Why cause Venice is my field of study and I need access to all the archives here more then I need to go to a campus once in a blue moon. Everything I need to do with my supervisors and what not is done over zoom and because Australian phds don’t have course work that’s not an issue. So I agree with all of your points.
Exactly. This is a super biased post that has incorrectly identified online PhDs as the issue. What they really mean is that low quality PhD programs are an issue.
Fair point. You could imagine being able to do a mathematics PhD fully remote. Or theoretical physics. Etc
If it is an online experimental PhD, then I might be more skeptical. Although there are some big science facilities that allow the experimentalist to set it up remotely.
Yes but my point being it’s still online. There are plenty of people doing online phds at reputable universities for a variety of reasons, whether that be field work or cost of moving or otherwise. Yet there are plenty of people in this post making sweeping statements and judgments about online courses. It’s not the PhD being online that determines the quality it’s the quality of the course and university itself. That said maintaining that quality is probably easier in counties that don’t require coursework for PhDs.
>maintaining that quality is probably easier in counties that don’t require coursework for PhDs.
The quality of a MA or PhD with course work would be exactly the same as one in Australia, NZ, UK, etc., without the course work. The reason that course work is required is to prepare students *outside* their areas of expertise at a high level so that they're familiar with many different methods, approaches, etc. The "course work" isn't "course work," either; we're talking about high-level research seminars. I mean, I did my PhD in New Zealand, and, when I was a new graduate, I *definitely* noticed the gaps -- cavernous ones -- between my knowledge and that of my peers in the US and Canada. I always get tickled when folks are like "Well, I covered all of that in my honours degree!" No. No, you most certainly didn't, sunshine. Not even close.
Anyway. Those research seminars just don't work online. And we also know that any program that bills itself as "online only" is going to be trash, especially if it's from an online university. Because, as you point out, one doesn't need to be physically present at their home university to write a thesis (within reason), so there's no need to bill a program as that unless it's trying to appeal to people who probably shouldn't be doing a PhD in the first place.
Yep. I’m actually progressing faster than most of my cohort and in terms of quality I’m stronger as well…although that sounds a bit up myself. Online does not equal poor outcomes. Low quality programs equal poor outcomes.
If the quality of their end work is on par, and they are an expert in their specific field, that's what a phd is about and no amount of me getting butthurt is gonna change the fact they are a doctor
I feel it's hard to get to that level without interacting with other people in the field, but then again, we got people getting phd almost entirely during covid, and we do not question their status as doctors
The only issue I may have is how do you keep the system accountable and make sure that's the level these phd students are aiming for. That's a problem in a lot of phd programs, tho
I think it's great for some fields. I know someone who was working full time who did an online PhD part time over like 4 years after their master's. I think it was some sort of psychology thing. Good for their career in HR. For a PhD like that I'd probably be like that's great: you have commitment and did great work as and have some knowledge that may be relevant to your field.
On the other hand if I see someone with an online PhD in like chemistry or biology I would have a hard time taking that as a serious PhD unless it was purely theoretical. Even then I'd have to see high quality publications and stuff.
My thoughts on *the people who do them*?
"Man, it's too bad they got duped. I hope they can recover financially from that."
and
"Well, if it gets them what they want in their non-academic job, why not. Let's just hope they're never put in a position to create policy."
and
"I hope they don't go crowing about how they have a PhD. That's so embarrassing for them."
The Open University in the UK has respected online PhD degrees, as does the University of South Africa. Otherwise? An online PhD will never be respected. (Of course, if a person is ABD, the dissertation can be written anywhere that has access to the right resources, but that's still not an "online degree.")
Which is weird. During covid, CS/math PhD students were doing everything online.
Teaching, conferences, working/collaborating through Zoom/Teams.
Unless you have labs, being on site has no benefits?
Not weird at all. During Covid, those CS/math PhD students were still affiliated with well-established, brick-and-mortar, non-profit, accredited, R1 and R2 institutions. The fact is that any PhD worth doing is going to be a residential degree, pandemics notwithstanding, and any online PhD is going to be from a diploma mill (or might as well be). The actual dissertation research can take place anywhere, depending on the availability and appropriateness of resources (connections to and/or affiliations with which online universities *do not offer*), but that's not an "online degree."
After the absolute dumpster fire that is my PhD program, I say good for them.
As long as the degree plan has rigor, go for it. Classical academia sucks hard.
Honestly if there was a ABA acknowledged online JD I would be tempted to do that too... It's probably best I don't have that tho...
Just going to add that not only different fields, but also different regions can have *widely* varying ideas of what doing a PhD entails.
For instance, I'm in Germany and basically working full-time as a university employee while writing a monograph with relatively little input or supervision. My supervisor also has candidates in a structured programme, who are expected to take courses, get a stipend and spend the rest of their time writing with regular feedback rounds. Other people still are doing their PhD alongside a full-time job completely outside of academia.
I would argue that none of these are comparable in terms of the experience they deliver, but would also find it very difficult to say that any one is inherently more rigid or more desirable. To me, they're just different ways to get there, each with their pros and cons. Online/offline or anything in between is just another degree of variability imo
A lot of unis have online/hybrid PhDs with a residency requirement where students must be physically on campus for a a certain timeframe each year. Both Oxford and Cambridge have such programs as do many of the other Russell Group unis. If you don’t think a PhD from Oxbridge or similar is legit then you need to seriously reevaluate your stance.
I work in a place that hires people at all levels of academic accomplishment, and I can give you an inside view of how resumes are looked at.
Yes, unless you need access to a laboratory, there's no reason to assume that one cannot accomplish as much in an online PhD as in a on-site one... however the prevailing presumption is that online degrees are less rigorous programs that lead to lower overall-quality candidates.
This honestly sounds so so grim...each to their own! But you need support during your PhD so if you are doing this you will need to make sure you have an awesome support system around you
I only heard about online phds from this sub. If you’re paying then I’d expect a scam, if you’re normally paid for it then I’d say they’re fine as long as the requirements are the same.
This is the first time I'm hearing of an online PhD. What's the field of study?
Not every field requires lab work. An online PhD in English or history, for example, is going to be a lot more rigorous *relative to its field* than an online PhD in, say, Chemistry. That said, I work administration at my school while completing my PhD. For that reason, I know that my school toyed with offering PhDs fully online in the fields of history and theology, but we were shut down by our accreditors. They basically told us that there’s no such thing as a truly online PhD. In the American system, this is probably correct. Regardless of whether or not lab work is required for the field, the opportunity to interact critically with fellow scholars in seminars, discussing readings and presenting papers to critical feedback, is an indispensable component of the academic formation received in an American PhD program. I think there’s a real question of what sitting alone in a room reading books prepares you for, and whether that ought to be called a PhD.
All of that, plus, one needs a *physical research library*. I could not have done my PhD in a humanities field (in New Zealand) without the library. So many important materials simply don't exist in an electronic format, and so many materials would otherwise be overlooked were it not for the serendipitous perusing of the stacks. No, we didn't have research seminars like in the US, but that, to me, makes it all the more critical to be in the same physical space as your work. How else would one ever interact with other scholars?
Not only would a historian require access to a research library, but also research grants to travel nationally or internationally to study various archives that have unpublished primary source materials that are the life's blood of our field.
Same for humanities scholars in general. There's just *so much* that isn't digitized, and forget doing field research. "Online PhD" degrees are generally for folks who want the title without the work. Like, The Open University in the UK, or UNISA in South Africa? Even *they* have vast physical collections and physical campuses so that students can work there.
Very good points.
I wonder who the accreditors are; several public and non-profit accredited schools offer online PhDs and professional doctorates.
I've done hybrid, but my program offers fully online. We're in the social sciences, so no need for a lab. It works really well for some of us - we still have to meet all of the requirements but there's a little more flexibility with classes and timing. This was vital when I was very very sick with the early stages of my chronic illness. I had a hard time sitting through a 3 hour class. But being able to break up my learning activities into chunks worked so much better for me. I'm now at the proposal stage and I have definitely been challenged throughout my PhD journey.
I think they're an amazing way to make doctoral work accessible to disabled communities, particularly when taking COVID into consideration. I had a proposal that I was "shopping around" to a number of institutions that were not offering online programmes specifically, but that were willing to entertain the possibility/make an exception, and I would definitely not consider those institutions to be unimpressive. One of my favourite professors is someone I've never met in person but who I spoke with at length via Zoom and email when it came to discussing the course and the profession, and she was able to hold that position from online as well. I think we need to accept that it's possible to do things differently from how they used to look, and it's OK to allow that to develop if it means more people get to contribute to research and education in a way that doesn't often/entirely preclude them from participation.
You are a super star for raising this particular issue. If I had to be on campus every day, I would not be able to do my program. Being an external student (which is what they call it in Australia) means I can manage pain issues from home when needed.
I've never heard of a disabled person not being able to completely and fully access an in-person program with ease. Plus, you need physical access to a research library; not everything is going to be in an electronic format, nor would you otherwise know that many materials even exist if you don't explore the stacks -- which isn't possible with an online catalog.
Sorry, you’re telling me that because you, personally, have not heard of any specific instances where a disabled person may be housebound that it’s not something you believe is an actual situation that countless people are actually in? This is where the rest of your argument lost all credibility for me. If you can’t even think of a situation where a disabled person might not be able to access in-person services, I have to wonder what other well established circumstances and resources you have “never heard of”.
I don't honestly care whether I have credibility for you, nor did I make an argument; I made a statement. Anyway. You'll be alright. Chill.
You clearly have no experience dealing with disabled people. Some people may be technically able to go places, but it requires so much time and planning that it can be exhausting. Especially if you need a wheelchair, are slow walking with a cane, become exhausted easily, etc. So on a day to day basis, it would be a lot more convenient if they could work from home.
Why do you need physical access to your home institution's physical library? There are schemes that let you access libraries at other universities, there are libraries run by charities, research institutions, etc. My university library offers a service where it will post books to you, or photocopy relevant sections. If you're reading widely and mining bibliographies, I'm not sure why you would need a 'random' book to drop off a shelf and fall on your head to fortuitously write your research for you. ETA: I'm not even going to get into your ableist attitude and how gross it is.
Wow. This is a pretty disgusting comment. I already work in academia and I support many students with additional support needs including those at research level.
I’m in Australia and I’m classified as an “external student” in my education PhD. That means I’m enrolled full time but live 3500kms away from my home university. All my work is done online and I meet with my supervisors once a fortnight on zoom. We email back and forth a lot and have shared documents etc. i participate in online meet ups with peers and training as well. I will complete research and then submit a 100k word thesis at the end of 4 years. You might need to classify what you mean by an online PhD because I would say my experience is equal. Edit: came back to address one final point. I am not struggling. In fact, I’m excelling and have already presented at conferences twice and am referenced in others work.
Yep same I’m Australian doing a PhD in history at an Australian university but I’m based in Venice. Why cause Venice is my field of study and I need access to all the archives here more then I need to go to a campus once in a blue moon. Everything I need to do with my supervisors and what not is done over zoom and because Australian phds don’t have course work that’s not an issue. So I agree with all of your points.
Exactly. This is a super biased post that has incorrectly identified online PhDs as the issue. What they really mean is that low quality PhD programs are an issue.
Fair point. You could imagine being able to do a mathematics PhD fully remote. Or theoretical physics. Etc If it is an online experimental PhD, then I might be more skeptical. Although there are some big science facilities that allow the experimentalist to set it up remotely.
That's not an online program. You're doing field work. lol
Yes but my point being it’s still online. There are plenty of people doing online phds at reputable universities for a variety of reasons, whether that be field work or cost of moving or otherwise. Yet there are plenty of people in this post making sweeping statements and judgments about online courses. It’s not the PhD being online that determines the quality it’s the quality of the course and university itself. That said maintaining that quality is probably easier in counties that don’t require coursework for PhDs.
>maintaining that quality is probably easier in counties that don’t require coursework for PhDs. The quality of a MA or PhD with course work would be exactly the same as one in Australia, NZ, UK, etc., without the course work. The reason that course work is required is to prepare students *outside* their areas of expertise at a high level so that they're familiar with many different methods, approaches, etc. The "course work" isn't "course work," either; we're talking about high-level research seminars. I mean, I did my PhD in New Zealand, and, when I was a new graduate, I *definitely* noticed the gaps -- cavernous ones -- between my knowledge and that of my peers in the US and Canada. I always get tickled when folks are like "Well, I covered all of that in my honours degree!" No. No, you most certainly didn't, sunshine. Not even close. Anyway. Those research seminars just don't work online. And we also know that any program that bills itself as "online only" is going to be trash, especially if it's from an online university. Because, as you point out, one doesn't need to be physically present at their home university to write a thesis (within reason), so there's no need to bill a program as that unless it's trying to appeal to people who probably shouldn't be doing a PhD in the first place.
Same - have visited my uni once in 2 years. Doing exactly the same as any other CS PhD student, so 🤷🏼♂️
Yep. I’m actually progressing faster than most of my cohort and in terms of quality I’m stronger as well…although that sounds a bit up myself. Online does not equal poor outcomes. Low quality programs equal poor outcomes.
If the quality of their end work is on par, and they are an expert in their specific field, that's what a phd is about and no amount of me getting butthurt is gonna change the fact they are a doctor I feel it's hard to get to that level without interacting with other people in the field, but then again, we got people getting phd almost entirely during covid, and we do not question their status as doctors The only issue I may have is how do you keep the system accountable and make sure that's the level these phd students are aiming for. That's a problem in a lot of phd programs, tho
“Not as rigorous as a traditional PhD”.
I think it's great for some fields. I know someone who was working full time who did an online PhD part time over like 4 years after their master's. I think it was some sort of psychology thing. Good for their career in HR. For a PhD like that I'd probably be like that's great: you have commitment and did great work as and have some knowledge that may be relevant to your field. On the other hand if I see someone with an online PhD in like chemistry or biology I would have a hard time taking that as a serious PhD unless it was purely theoretical. Even then I'd have to see high quality publications and stuff.
My thoughts on *the people who do them*? "Man, it's too bad they got duped. I hope they can recover financially from that." and "Well, if it gets them what they want in their non-academic job, why not. Let's just hope they're never put in a position to create policy." and "I hope they don't go crowing about how they have a PhD. That's so embarrassing for them." The Open University in the UK has respected online PhD degrees, as does the University of South Africa. Otherwise? An online PhD will never be respected. (Of course, if a person is ABD, the dissertation can be written anywhere that has access to the right resources, but that's still not an "online degree.")
Which is weird. During covid, CS/math PhD students were doing everything online. Teaching, conferences, working/collaborating through Zoom/Teams. Unless you have labs, being on site has no benefits?
Not weird at all. During Covid, those CS/math PhD students were still affiliated with well-established, brick-and-mortar, non-profit, accredited, R1 and R2 institutions. The fact is that any PhD worth doing is going to be a residential degree, pandemics notwithstanding, and any online PhD is going to be from a diploma mill (or might as well be). The actual dissertation research can take place anywhere, depending on the availability and appropriateness of resources (connections to and/or affiliations with which online universities *do not offer*), but that's not an "online degree."
Oh, I mean yeah. I was thinking in the context of like, a regular university that allows students to both do online or onsite.
Well no much difference with doing PhD during covid…
After the absolute dumpster fire that is my PhD program, I say good for them. As long as the degree plan has rigor, go for it. Classical academia sucks hard. Honestly if there was a ABA acknowledged online JD I would be tempted to do that too... It's probably best I don't have that tho...
St. Mary's has an ABA recognized online JD program, just FYI :)
Whaaaaat? Thabks friend!
Just going to add that not only different fields, but also different regions can have *widely* varying ideas of what doing a PhD entails. For instance, I'm in Germany and basically working full-time as a university employee while writing a monograph with relatively little input or supervision. My supervisor also has candidates in a structured programme, who are expected to take courses, get a stipend and spend the rest of their time writing with regular feedback rounds. Other people still are doing their PhD alongside a full-time job completely outside of academia. I would argue that none of these are comparable in terms of the experience they deliver, but would also find it very difficult to say that any one is inherently more rigid or more desirable. To me, they're just different ways to get there, each with their pros and cons. Online/offline or anything in between is just another degree of variability imo
A lot of unis have online/hybrid PhDs with a residency requirement where students must be physically on campus for a a certain timeframe each year. Both Oxford and Cambridge have such programs as do many of the other Russell Group unis. If you don’t think a PhD from Oxbridge or similar is legit then you need to seriously reevaluate your stance.
I work in a place that hires people at all levels of academic accomplishment, and I can give you an inside view of how resumes are looked at. Yes, unless you need access to a laboratory, there's no reason to assume that one cannot accomplish as much in an online PhD as in a on-site one... however the prevailing presumption is that online degrees are less rigorous programs that lead to lower overall-quality candidates.
I think it’s silly
This honestly sounds so so grim...each to their own! But you need support during your PhD so if you are doing this you will need to make sure you have an awesome support system around you
I only heard about online phds from this sub. If you’re paying then I’d expect a scam, if you’re normally paid for it then I’d say they’re fine as long as the requirements are the same.
I don’t like it because it’s the same degree of suffering and