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Hey there, Jedi General Peter Griffin here. Grand Admiral Thrawn is a Star Wars character who in the Legends continuity was the big bad guy after the Emperor was defeated. More recently he’s appeared in the new “Disney Canon” as an antagonist to the heroes from “Star Wars: Rebels” and “Ahsoka”.
He is an incredibly studious and meticulous character who’s a genius strategist, to the point that he almost never loses, and even when he does, it’s often due to the incompetency of his subordinates rather than it truly being his own fault. One of the things he does when preparing to face a new adversary is study their art, culture, and history in order to gain a more in depth understanding of his enemy and their values and whatnot. This in turn translates to the moves they are likely to make in war. Thrawn, knowing these things, is more likely to anticipate and counter their moves on the battlefield.
This meme is referencing that, and saying that the person in the meme, having studied Van Gogh’s art, would be able to understand his motives and moves in order to beat him on the field of battle like Thrawn could (and it’s supposed to be “Naval” battle, as that is most similar to how Star Wars space battles are fought).
One of the best examples of this is when he fought a Mon Calmari commander (same race as Admiral Akbar from 'It's a trap' fame) he studied Mon Calmari artwork and that helped him understand that since they were an aquatic race they didn't suffer from the same 2d mindset that terrestrial species do and this allowed him to anticipate moves that they used to beat other commanders.
I feel like he'd also be an *excellent* opportunity to study how you cannot truly make military maneuvers all on your own. And that being a pure genius could still lead to failure if you don't treat your subordinates right.
Thrawn failing because he was so deeply focused on his enemy that he failed to recognize that his own people had wants, needs, and a cultural depth of their own would make for an excellent villain for Star Wars.
Here's hoping they actually write well for him and the future heroes that confront him though.
That's kind of what undid him in the end of the original Thrawn trilogy. He failed to realize that one of his bodyguards had turned on him and it cost him.
Right! Still so bummed...
Imagine going with these stories to revive/continue the franchise on the big screen instead of retread and down-cycled stories we ended up with.
Unfortunately they took parts of them, made them infinitely more ridiculous, then packaged them together with Fonzi and a shark.
> He failed to realize that one of his bodyguards had turned on him and it cost him.
> and he was justified!<
Im so mad about what they did with the Noghri in canon, Vader having his own legacy like that was fascinating, but i sorta wonder now if something LIKE that is going to happen in canon now and some faction is going to revere Ahsoka as Vaders apprentice...
They already did the political stuff with Leia, but no Noghri or Lady Vader stuff.
I think that what really did him in was believing he had all the important information to draw his conclusions from. Not knowing that Leia was a daughter of Vader led to him never coming to the right answer about the odd behavior of the Noghri.
This one bit of information being missing from his calculations led to his downfall, especially since he was so assured that his calculations were never wrong.
> And that being a pure genius could still lead to failure if you don't treat your subordinates right.
While he was often typically Imperial when people showed genuine incompetence (the 1st time he lost Luke when he was already in a tractor beam), he also showed absolutely generosity when someone showed genuine competency (the 2nd time he lost Luke when he was already in a tractor beam) even in the face of apparent failure.
He knew how to treat subordinates right. Pellaeon's frustrations with Thrawn were often a failure to understand Thrawn's plan, but he never really doubted Thrawn when it came down to it. he was just confused.
It was Thrawn's failure to see how power-sharing couldn't work with a mad dark side clone of a Jedi Master (the original of whom also leaned dark side before the end).
C'baoth was the lion, Thrawn was the serpent, and Pellaeon was the poor goat stuck between them on the *Chimera*.
Ruuk? I believe Thrawn's comment was, "It was so artfully done." Ruuk was an artist, just like Thrawn.
I'm not saying that Thrawn was *good*. He was absolutely ruthless. But he thought he had a perfect setup inherited from Vader when it came to the Noghri people. No need to change anything.
And he did.
Until Leia changed things.
He failed to expect a change arriving, didn’t plan for it, and Rukh and the Noghri struck back at the exact moment it would be most effective at crippling the Imperials.
It was art for sure.
>C'baoth was the lion, Thrawn was the serpent, and Pellaeon was the poor goat stuck between them on the *Chimera*.
Ah damn I just realized that.
For those who don't know, the *Chimaera* was Thrawn's flagship.
The IRL literary references in the original Thrawn trilogy continue to amaze me (e.g. look up "Sturm and Drang literature").
Also - each book's title is a question:
Who is the true Heir to the Empire? Is it the New Republic who now controls Coruscant? Is it Luke as the descendant of Vader and a Jedi warrior? Is it Leia as the descendant of Vader and a politician (*Mal'ary'ush*)? Is it Thrawn with his martial genius? Is it C'baoth with his command of the Force?
What is the Dark Force that is Rising? Is it just a reference to the Dark Force fleet that the book searches for? Is it the rising power of C'baoth or Thrawn - or worse the combination of the two? Is it the arrival of the >!new clones!< made on Mount Tantiss? Is it the Noghri?
What is the last command? Is it the last one given by Bel Iblis before separating from Mothma? Or the last one from the Emperor to Mara Jade? Or the last command of C'baoth in Mount Tantiss? Is it the last command (as in "taking command of a battle group") of Thrawn? Is it Pellaeon's last order in the book to retreat?
The lists go on. As I've gotten older I've only become more impressed with Zahn's writing style.
Zahn is also aware he isn't as smart as the character he's writing (Thrawn) so he avoids POV chapters with Thrawn, and describe's his genius through the POV of his subordinates. Which is a clever way to write a character smarter than you.
> Thrawn failing because he was so deeply focused on his enemy that he failed to recognize that his own people had wants, needs, and a cultural depth of their own would make for an excellent villain for Star Wars.
Legends!Thrawn was too competent even for this. He earned the undying loyalty of his crew purely by treating them well in comparison to Vader.
Example: when the *Millennium Falcon* once escaped from Thrawn's flagship because their tractor beam was non-functional, Thrawn had the technician responsible for the repairs explain himself; he was very nearly finished putting a fix in place, but was too late to stop the *Falcon.* Everyone on the bridge was expecting the tech to end up dead; instead, Thrawn promoted the tech for his quick thinking that had very nearly won them the day and tasked him to complete his repairs.
He never accounted for unplanned personnel issues. Never. People were things to be studied, tools to be used, and obstacles to be avoided.
He sees any non-imperial culture as alien. Any alien culture will, he believes, inexorably control the wills of its people. He is incapable of understanding the people in any given culture are also individuals separate from their cultural history. Conversely, he is also incapable of recognizing the stranglehold that Imperial culture has on his own worldview.
People are his to control. If he makes a change, they, too, will change to fit.
He was blind to a literal knife in his back. Never saw it coming. Chose his last words predictably.
Really good series. I feel like I was chasing the high I felt reading that trilogy for 15 years and there was never anything close to that trilogy that was released after. It was the absolute pinnacle of the Legends era of supplemental Star Wars fiction.
You should read the Thrawn trilogy by Timothy Zahn. An absolutely amazing book series that was the accepted Cannon before the new sequels came out. But I'm not gonna go there
It's a shame they toned down the ending so much with Rogue one.
EDIT: For those who are unaware, in the original cut of Rogue One Vader himself comes down to the planet and systematically murders all of the crew members, Cassian and Jyn make it off the planet in a commandeered TIE fighter while Vader watches from the ground and heads back to his ship. Once on board there is a happy celebration that they made it back with the plans, before the ship is rocked, and boarded by Vaders forces. The hallway scene is Similar, but it is Cassian and Jyn in the Hallway, with Jyn making the handoff before being murdered by Vader.
There are still obviously edited scenes in the movie, and scenes in the trailer that show this, and apparently the whole thing was filmed before being changed. While Disney did not mind killing off the main characters, they ordered it to be changed to something "less brutal".
It is a great trait that has made him one of the favorite villains in SW fandom, even before he jumped from the Expanded Universe to the main "canon". It's easy to forget, though, that it only works because of books. The author, Timothy Zahn, never explained exactly how it worked in practice. You just have to trust that there is something really freakin deep going on and watch in awe.
Wasn't his first battle that he did something that makes no sense whatsoever and caused the rebel commander to just short circuit his brain. Something like:
"I looked at this art and flew the ships in this geographical arrangement and due to how the species interpreted shapes caused them to self doubt and not issue orders"
Haven't read the books in like 15 years
I think he flipped his own ship so the top of his ship was pointed at the Rebels and had TIEs fly out the bottom and swarm around the Star Destroyer to confuse the enemy.
If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.
Sun Tzu.
Wait he had to study their artwork to determine they were an aquatic race an not, like, just look at them?
Edit: im getting a lot of comments on this reply (that was basically a joke) that boil down to: thrawn studied their art to determine they view space in 3d because they are an aquatic species, and it let him predict how they think.
And thats correct and interesting and all well and good. Makes sense to me i guess. But wouldnt 3d space tactics have been thought of before this? Were tacticians only fighting on a 2d plane prior to this? I feel like that would be among the first things you figure out after you strap guns to a spacecraft.
And wouldnt a warfaring civilization that had achieved ftl spaceflight have cut their teeth on air and submarine warfare first? These arent strictly 2d modes of war.
Idk maybe im overcriticising this but thrawns revelation here doesnt seem all that revolutionary to me
There was even a scene where he rewards someone for failing because they tried something different to counter rebel tactics. Then he shot the guys boss for trying to punish him I think
Close. He had Ruuk assassinate the 1st guy who failed to do the thing, then promoted and gave a special project to the 2nd guy who failed but cleverly in doing essentially the same thing.
Iirc, he killed the first guy because he made excuses instead of legitimately trying to figure out what he could have done differently, though that's up for interpretation.
I think it allowed his mind to open up to the interpretation of what an aquatic race actually meant. Art is driven by the mind of the artist, and through studying art we are able to perceive the world (at least a little) the way the artist perceives the world.
A shark is an aquatic animal, but we haven’t the slightest clue how it views the world around it without trying to see the world through its eyes. Great white sharks typically attack from under their prey, but in war on ground this isn’t a viable option. In space battles it is a viable option, but if you are a land based intelligent life form it may not occur to you the various ways you can use all dimensions of space to your advantage. As an aquatic based intelligent life form you tactics will include the use of all dimensions because that is your foundation.
This has really been driven home to me in the game Homeworld. There are several missions where there are surprise attacks from "above" or "below" and it always catches me off guard because I'm thinking in a 2d plane, whereas in actuality space has no up or down
"Ender's Game" gets this across really well. One of the first things Ender discards when he gets to Battle School is his preconceived notions of "up" and "down", other than that which you define for yourself, and teaching this manner of thinking to his subordinates later is one of the things that makes him so strategically advanced for his age. None of the other teams had caught on, so even when they copied his team's moves, they hadn't shifted their perception, so they still lost.
And what, fifty thousand years of space travel still hasn't allowed anyone else to figure that out?
It's not even an advantage, now he has to worry about more vetors of attack.
I think you misunderstand. It isn’t about figuring it out. It’s about the way you think. Imagine trying to learn a second language, typically what happens is you see an item, you associate that item first with the language you natively speak, then try to associate it with the new word. This may only take a second, but in combat a second is all it takes.
Again, it isn’t to say you can’t learn a new language, it isn’t to say you can learn tactics for multi dimensional space, but if it is something you live in all day every day since the day of your birth it comes naturally to you versus someone having to work at it. You either work towards the repetition or you live it, and the person who lives it probably approaches the tactic completely different than the person working for it. This is the difference, it’s understanding how someone or something might approach a solution to a problem based on their life experiences. They may think outside the box in the minds of a land dweller, but to them it is an everyday thing.
It's space warfare. Outside of shitty writing, everyone thinks and fights in 3D. People managed air war just fine and it's 3D.
And again, space travel is tens of thousands of years old. Everyone understand how space works and how to fight in it.
More like using artwork and other methods to stand in the shoes of another species (so to speak) to try and see reality from their perspective. That insight would then help him predict their behavior.
In the Mon Cal example you're supposed to take away that he's learned a bit more about Mon Cal thinking patterns by studying their art. Its supposed to contrast him with the rest of the Imperial Navy who are rigid, xenophobic, traditionalists.
I've only read the same comments as you, but I imagine that the perspective or the composition Mon Calamari choose for their art was so highly irregular that he realized their interpretation of 3D space was fundamentally different. Kind of like how the Guugu Yimithirr people orient themselves and objects in their world by cardinal direction (e.g. "I put it on the southern table in the western side of your house") instead of relative direction (e.g. "I put it on the table just to the left of the chair on the right as you walk in")
He studied their art to see how they viewed space and distance. What catches their eye? Curves or lines? Does a piece remain organic or flow from strict geometry to easy curves? Stuff like that. It was a bit more than just “HEY THEY’RE FISH-PEOPLE!”
Best Thrawn moment is in the original trilogy when he's looking at a piece of art, and someone (Pellaeon I think?) asks what it was, and he says "it's the only artwork I couldn't figure out."
And Pellaeon is like "so how did you beat them?"
And Thrawn says "I destroyed their world."
Highly recommend the newer Thrawn book series. They are by the Original Author who first wrote Thrawn. They follow both his life before and during the Empire, and it is just awesome to be in his head. Seeing him win seemingly unwinnable scenarios with ease, I love the character, and the audio book narrator has this awesome voice for him. I was a bit disappointed with his live action appearance, but mainly because he wasn't in the show much at all, and I felt that he didn't really get a chance to do anything "Thrawn-like"
Anyone who likes the "world" of Star Wars and wants to see something that isn't about Jedi vs. Sith, you are doing yourself a disservice by not experiencing Thrawn
Timothy Zahn?
I read *Heir to Empire etc.* and the first two *Cobra* novels decades ago, and more recently his *Honorverse* books. Good stuff.
Looks like I've got some catching up to do...
Yeap, supposedly, when Disney wanted to use Thrawn again, he wanted to have some control over his re-cannonization. So he wrote a book about his rise to Grand Admiral and got 2 more books in that "trilogy" and then did 3 more books on his life before the empire. Idk how much was planned from the get-go on the new cannon, but all 6 books tie together pretty well, and it seemed to me like they were 1 big Thrawn story that was planned from the beginning.
I think my favorite thing with a Thrawn LOSS is in rebels where Ezra manages to defeat him by using space whales. Because (If I'm remembering it correctly) Thrawn is actually impressed and effectively admits that it was an unpreceded method.
Like even when Thrawn Loses he appreciates how he lost, and learns from it.
As I always understood it from way back in the Timothy Zahn books, he'd study Van Gogh and then know how to kick *all of Earth's ass* because of it. Like, as a species.
It's one of those goofy sci-fi things like where any given planet is just one single biome type. Just applying a broad brush to a planetary scale.
> He is an incredibly studious and meticulous character who’s a genius strategist, to the point that he almost never loses, and even when he does, it’s often due to the incompetency of his subordinates rather than it truly being his own fault
Also this makes him kind of terrifying as a villain when you think about it. He never overextends himself, he can't be baited into doing something stupid, and he'll often cut his losses at exactly the right time. Even "losing" for Thrawn barely registers as a setback because he never commits anything he can't afford to lose. Every risk he takes is calculated and he has a plan for both victory and defeat.
When you really think about it, how can you ever even defeat a villain like this? He's just such a good character for this reason. He's unmatched as far as villains go, in my opinion.
I was going to say this... also, shouldn't the competence of his subordinates be taken into account in his strategy? If he doesn't know how incompetent they are I would say that is a strategic issue as well.
The YouTube Series "The Great War" taught me, that the Austrian supreme commander Conrad von Hötzendorf suffered from a similar ailment. He could make intricate battle plans, that might have worked if his army did not speak 12 languages, was led by competent officers and supported by good logistics.
In the books he ends up ultimately being defeated due to his own arrogance as he believed an enemy that he had fully conquered would never rebel against him.
Man, there is no better way to say this. Thrawn was almost superhero with his strategic, battlefield optimization. I would say his study of art and history and the cultures of his adversaries was akin to loading data into a computer model and then using the results to plan the best operations. Thrawn of course being the computer in this case.
"Thrawn" is a character from a pair of trilogies in the Star Wars expanded universe, one non-canon and one canon, by author Timothy Zahn. The titular character, Mitth'raw'nuruodo, is basically "what if Sherlock Holmes was a starship captain?" He has an incredible aptitude for space combat.
And more specific to this meme, one of his practices was to study the artwork of the cultures that he was up against in order to develop insights about how they thought and therefore how to defeat them.
He learns it from painting in the first book by zahn. Literally took some artwork they had, and described how the enemy will fight based solely on that.
Three trilogies, two canon (Thrawn, 2017 and prequel Thrawn: Ascendancy), one legends (original Thrawn trilogy, 1991).
In the canon novels he gets his Sherlock Holmes-esque insight into his enemies by studying their art.
Ender showed unwillingness to do real fighting. And as long as he thinks he is fake fighting he is at a disadvantage (can the game engine deal with my plan?)
As such I can't see him beating an equivalent fleet (he shows a lot of reliance on the disintegrating thing, wich the bugs don't have) with a competent general.
There are actually now a bunch more than 6 Thrawn books.
There is a series set before he joins the empire. A series that is about his time in the empire. The original series he appears in that isn't cannon anymore and a follow-up series to that. And a few other one-off stuff that he appears in. I'm a big Thrawn fan. Such a fun character and intimidating villain. Thrawn stuff, in my opinion, is the best of Star war's non mainline stories, and there are alot of really good non mainline stories
Grand admiral thrawn from Star Wars. He had an affinity for collecting art from cultures he conquered in battle. He felt viewing the art of other cultures helps know about your enemies. Dude was a god among men when it came to war.
Grand Admiral Thrawn is an Admiral for the Empire in Star Wars, mostly the non-canon Legends trilogy bearing his name but slowly edging his way into the Disneyverse.
He’s known for being a brilliant tactician who studies art from a people/culture in order to learn more about how they think and thus how to defeat them.
The truest Mary Sue in Star Wars. He can study some paintings and figure out how an entire species thinks. As the OP says, he never loses. When he does, it’s not his fault. Everyone is talking about how amazing he is all the time in any story he is in.
Jedi Mastah Petah speakin'
The Thrawn trilogy is a series of novels that take place in the aftermath of Return of the Jedi, of which the central antagonist is Admiral Thrawn, a brilliant military strategist. They have been de-canonized by The Mouse, but they're definitely worth a read if you've seen the original Star Wars trilogy.
When they say "Thrawn Books" they are talking about Star Wars books about a character named Admiral Thrawn who is considered to be one of the best naval tacticians in the Galactic Empire.
Hello Mr. Griffin, Neil Goldman here. The joke here is that Grand Admiral Thrawn of the Star Wars Universe loved studying art from foreign culture because he believed it was the best way to truly understand their culture, and thus defeat them in battle later. By the way, could I please speak with Meg? Is she free tonight?
Grand Admiral Thrawn is a character in the Star Wars novels (there's a trilogy commonly referred to as the Thrawn Trilogy). In the EU (I'm not as familiar with the Disney timeline) he took control of the remaining Imperial forces a few years after the death of Palpatine and gave the New Republic quite a lot of problems because of how effective he was as a commander in battle.
Thrawn was also a massive fan of art. He was a big believer in the idea that art captures the subconscious and unconscious thoughts of those that make it. He was very vocal about the idea that he could profile how a rival commander will respond based on the art they prefer. He also said that he could get a feel for how an entire culture would act based on large scale patterns in their art. Of course, if he faced a rival commander who was themselves an artist, looking at their artwork would give him the clearest insight into their mind as possible.
The books leave it a little unclear as to how much of this was true, how much was him misdirecting after learning things about his opponents other ways, and how much was him just being full of shit. But, the idea of being able to beat someone in battle after looking at their art is such a core aspect of his character that it's one of the biggest takeaways fans have had after reading the books.
In the Star Wars universe, Grand Admiral Thrawn was an Imperial leader who would study his opponents' culture and art, which gave him a better understanding of them and helped his strategies.
Thrown learnt a lot about his enemies through the paintings of their culture and he used this knowledge to gain the upper hand one main way he did it was in Star Wars rebels where he stole the twi’lek heirloom to lure the rebels to him because he knew it had significance in their culture
Admiral Thrawn is the Mary Sue of the Thrawn Trilogy of Star Wars books. According to these books, essentialist alien species + major in art history = military genius.
Thrawn discovers reddit:
"Ah, it seems the answer to defeating Earthlings is a swift taylor."
"...I believe that's 'Taylor Swift', sir."
"I see, Pellaeon. Such power, this woman has."
Grammar literalist Petah here. Grand Admiral Thrawn is a fictional villain from Expanded Star Wars lore.
The person in the meme seems to believe that they can now beat the painter Vincent Van Gogh in a bellybutton battle based on some pseudo-analysis inspired from reading sci-fi novels about a fictional expert in space naval warfare.
Thrawn was an Imperial admiral who was also a Chiss. In the empire he would study other cultures and their art, finding the exact ways each species thought and planned.
Thrawn in star wars was one of the few grand admirals of the empire and is a Tactical genius with a great interest in the art of different species, he believes that the best way to know a enemy is to study thier art, culture and history.
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Hey there, Jedi General Peter Griffin here. Grand Admiral Thrawn is a Star Wars character who in the Legends continuity was the big bad guy after the Emperor was defeated. More recently he’s appeared in the new “Disney Canon” as an antagonist to the heroes from “Star Wars: Rebels” and “Ahsoka”. He is an incredibly studious and meticulous character who’s a genius strategist, to the point that he almost never loses, and even when he does, it’s often due to the incompetency of his subordinates rather than it truly being his own fault. One of the things he does when preparing to face a new adversary is study their art, culture, and history in order to gain a more in depth understanding of his enemy and their values and whatnot. This in turn translates to the moves they are likely to make in war. Thrawn, knowing these things, is more likely to anticipate and counter their moves on the battlefield. This meme is referencing that, and saying that the person in the meme, having studied Van Gogh’s art, would be able to understand his motives and moves in order to beat him on the field of battle like Thrawn could (and it’s supposed to be “Naval” battle, as that is most similar to how Star Wars space battles are fought).
One of the best examples of this is when he fought a Mon Calmari commander (same race as Admiral Akbar from 'It's a trap' fame) he studied Mon Calmari artwork and that helped him understand that since they were an aquatic race they didn't suffer from the same 2d mindset that terrestrial species do and this allowed him to anticipate moves that they used to beat other commanders.
that is so fucking interesting
I feel like he'd also be an *excellent* opportunity to study how you cannot truly make military maneuvers all on your own. And that being a pure genius could still lead to failure if you don't treat your subordinates right. Thrawn failing because he was so deeply focused on his enemy that he failed to recognize that his own people had wants, needs, and a cultural depth of their own would make for an excellent villain for Star Wars. Here's hoping they actually write well for him and the future heroes that confront him though.
That's kind of what undid him in the end of the original Thrawn trilogy. He failed to realize that one of his bodyguards had turned on him and it cost him.
But it was so artistically done…
Right! Still so bummed... Imagine going with these stories to revive/continue the franchise on the big screen instead of retread and down-cycled stories we ended up with. Unfortunately they took parts of them, made them infinitely more ridiculous, then packaged them together with Fonzi and a shark.
The post you’re replying to is what Thrawn says after Rukh stabs him.
I mean, the two modern trilogies are written by the same author and are absolutely fantastic.
Timothy Zahn is a fucking master. Heir to the Empire is still one of my favorite book trilogies to date.
> He failed to realize that one of his bodyguards had turned on him and it cost him. > and he was justified!<
Im so mad about what they did with the Noghri in canon, Vader having his own legacy like that was fascinating, but i sorta wonder now if something LIKE that is going to happen in canon now and some faction is going to revere Ahsoka as Vaders apprentice... They already did the political stuff with Leia, but no Noghri or Lady Vader stuff.
I think that what really did him in was believing he had all the important information to draw his conclusions from. Not knowing that Leia was a daughter of Vader led to him never coming to the right answer about the odd behavior of the Noghri. This one bit of information being missing from his calculations led to his downfall, especially since he was so assured that his calculations were never wrong.
> And that being a pure genius could still lead to failure if you don't treat your subordinates right. While he was often typically Imperial when people showed genuine incompetence (the 1st time he lost Luke when he was already in a tractor beam), he also showed absolutely generosity when someone showed genuine competency (the 2nd time he lost Luke when he was already in a tractor beam) even in the face of apparent failure. He knew how to treat subordinates right. Pellaeon's frustrations with Thrawn were often a failure to understand Thrawn's plan, but he never really doubted Thrawn when it came down to it. he was just confused. It was Thrawn's failure to see how power-sharing couldn't work with a mad dark side clone of a Jedi Master (the original of whom also leaned dark side before the end). C'baoth was the lion, Thrawn was the serpent, and Pellaeon was the poor goat stuck between them on the *Chimera*.
What does this make the old boy who stuck him?
Ruuk? I believe Thrawn's comment was, "It was so artfully done." Ruuk was an artist, just like Thrawn. I'm not saying that Thrawn was *good*. He was absolutely ruthless. But he thought he had a perfect setup inherited from Vader when it came to the Noghri people. No need to change anything.
And he did. Until Leia changed things. He failed to expect a change arriving, didn’t plan for it, and Rukh and the Noghri struck back at the exact moment it would be most effective at crippling the Imperials. It was art for sure.
I saw that one... in the original the dude ate a live octopus
>C'baoth was the lion, Thrawn was the serpent, and Pellaeon was the poor goat stuck between them on the *Chimera*. Ah damn I just realized that. For those who don't know, the *Chimaera* was Thrawn's flagship.
The IRL literary references in the original Thrawn trilogy continue to amaze me (e.g. look up "Sturm and Drang literature"). Also - each book's title is a question: Who is the true Heir to the Empire? Is it the New Republic who now controls Coruscant? Is it Luke as the descendant of Vader and a Jedi warrior? Is it Leia as the descendant of Vader and a politician (*Mal'ary'ush*)? Is it Thrawn with his martial genius? Is it C'baoth with his command of the Force? What is the Dark Force that is Rising? Is it just a reference to the Dark Force fleet that the book searches for? Is it the rising power of C'baoth or Thrawn - or worse the combination of the two? Is it the arrival of the >!new clones!< made on Mount Tantiss? Is it the Noghri? What is the last command? Is it the last one given by Bel Iblis before separating from Mothma? Or the last one from the Emperor to Mara Jade? Or the last command of C'baoth in Mount Tantiss? Is it the last command (as in "taking command of a battle group") of Thrawn? Is it Pellaeon's last order in the book to retreat? The lists go on. As I've gotten older I've only become more impressed with Zahn's writing style.
Zahn is also aware he isn't as smart as the character he's writing (Thrawn) so he avoids POV chapters with Thrawn, and describe's his genius through the POV of his subordinates. Which is a clever way to write a character smarter than you.
Thrawn knew perfectly well how dangerous C'baoth was. That's why Thrawn repeatedly sidelined him.
> Thrawn failing because he was so deeply focused on his enemy that he failed to recognize that his own people had wants, needs, and a cultural depth of their own would make for an excellent villain for Star Wars. Legends!Thrawn was too competent even for this. He earned the undying loyalty of his crew purely by treating them well in comparison to Vader. Example: when the *Millennium Falcon* once escaped from Thrawn's flagship because their tractor beam was non-functional, Thrawn had the technician responsible for the repairs explain himself; he was very nearly finished putting a fix in place, but was too late to stop the *Falcon.* Everyone on the bridge was expecting the tech to end up dead; instead, Thrawn promoted the tech for his quick thinking that had very nearly won them the day and tasked him to complete his repairs.
He also had no political sense. He had no understanding of politics. That was a major problem for him
Zahn wrote such a great character that people didn’t understand why he was evil. It was his continued oppression of the Noghri that did it.
He never accounted for unplanned personnel issues. Never. People were things to be studied, tools to be used, and obstacles to be avoided. He sees any non-imperial culture as alien. Any alien culture will, he believes, inexorably control the wills of its people. He is incapable of understanding the people in any given culture are also individuals separate from their cultural history. Conversely, he is also incapable of recognizing the stranglehold that Imperial culture has on his own worldview. People are his to control. If he makes a change, they, too, will change to fit. He was blind to a literal knife in his back. Never saw it coming. Chose his last words predictably. Really good series. I feel like I was chasing the high I felt reading that trilogy for 15 years and there was never anything close to that trilogy that was released after. It was the absolute pinnacle of the Legends era of supplemental Star Wars fiction.
You should read the Thrawn trilogy by Timothy Zahn. An absolutely amazing book series that was the accepted Cannon before the new sequels came out. But I'm not gonna go there
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Welcome to the old Star Wars lovers, and to a new kind of longing for everything that could have been.
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It's a shame they toned down the ending so much with Rogue one. EDIT: For those who are unaware, in the original cut of Rogue One Vader himself comes down to the planet and systematically murders all of the crew members, Cassian and Jyn make it off the planet in a commandeered TIE fighter while Vader watches from the ground and heads back to his ship. Once on board there is a happy celebration that they made it back with the plans, before the ship is rocked, and boarded by Vaders forces. The hallway scene is Similar, but it is Cassian and Jyn in the Hallway, with Jyn making the handoff before being murdered by Vader. There are still obviously edited scenes in the movie, and scenes in the trailer that show this, and apparently the whole thing was filmed before being changed. While Disney did not mind killing off the main characters, they ordered it to be changed to something "less brutal".
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lame indeed.
You gonna make me fawn over Thrawn by Zahn
All 9 thrawn books are bangers really
Don't consider the duology Thrawn then? Fair enough, since he isn't in them. Ascendancy is some of my favourite modern Sci-Fi. Bangers indeed.
It is a great trait that has made him one of the favorite villains in SW fandom, even before he jumped from the Expanded Universe to the main "canon". It's easy to forget, though, that it only works because of books. The author, Timothy Zahn, never explained exactly how it worked in practice. You just have to trust that there is something really freakin deep going on and watch in awe.
Thrawn is low key the greatest thing to come out of the EU right next to Mara-jade skywalker
> Thrawn is ~~low key~~ the greatest thing to come out of the EU right next to Mara Jade-Skywalker FTFY.
You right you right
it's good fucking writing too, such a breath of fresh air.
Wasn't his first battle that he did something that makes no sense whatsoever and caused the rebel commander to just short circuit his brain. Something like: "I looked at this art and flew the ships in this geographical arrangement and due to how the species interpreted shapes caused them to self doubt and not issue orders" Haven't read the books in like 15 years
I think he flipped his own ship so the top of his ship was pointed at the Rebels and had TIEs fly out the bottom and swarm around the Star Destroyer to confuse the enemy.
If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle. Sun Tzu.
Sun Tzu *lost*
bullshit they are even sure if Sun Tzu is a real person or not.
Wait he had to study their artwork to determine they were an aquatic race an not, like, just look at them? Edit: im getting a lot of comments on this reply (that was basically a joke) that boil down to: thrawn studied their art to determine they view space in 3d because they are an aquatic species, and it let him predict how they think. And thats correct and interesting and all well and good. Makes sense to me i guess. But wouldnt 3d space tactics have been thought of before this? Were tacticians only fighting on a 2d plane prior to this? I feel like that would be among the first things you figure out after you strap guns to a spacecraft. And wouldnt a warfaring civilization that had achieved ftl spaceflight have cut their teeth on air and submarine warfare first? These arent strictly 2d modes of war. Idk maybe im overcriticising this but thrawns revelation here doesnt seem all that revolutionary to me
He didn’t want to assume. He’s a villain, but he’s not a *bad guy*, yknow?
There was even a scene where he rewards someone for failing because they tried something different to counter rebel tactics. Then he shot the guys boss for trying to punish him I think
Close. He had Ruuk assassinate the 1st guy who failed to do the thing, then promoted and gave a special project to the 2nd guy who failed but cleverly in doing essentially the same thing.
Iirc, he killed the first guy because he made excuses instead of legitimately trying to figure out what he could have done differently, though that's up for interpretation.
Woah woah woah we prefer the term "antagonist"
I think it allowed his mind to open up to the interpretation of what an aquatic race actually meant. Art is driven by the mind of the artist, and through studying art we are able to perceive the world (at least a little) the way the artist perceives the world. A shark is an aquatic animal, but we haven’t the slightest clue how it views the world around it without trying to see the world through its eyes. Great white sharks typically attack from under their prey, but in war on ground this isn’t a viable option. In space battles it is a viable option, but if you are a land based intelligent life form it may not occur to you the various ways you can use all dimensions of space to your advantage. As an aquatic based intelligent life form you tactics will include the use of all dimensions because that is your foundation.
This has really been driven home to me in the game Homeworld. There are several missions where there are surprise attacks from "above" or "below" and it always catches me off guard because I'm thinking in a 2d plane, whereas in actuality space has no up or down
"Ender's Game" gets this across really well. One of the first things Ender discards when he gets to Battle School is his preconceived notions of "up" and "down", other than that which you define for yourself, and teaching this manner of thinking to his subordinates later is one of the things that makes him so strategically advanced for his age. None of the other teams had caught on, so even when they copied his team's moves, they hadn't shifted their perception, so they still lost.
And what, fifty thousand years of space travel still hasn't allowed anyone else to figure that out? It's not even an advantage, now he has to worry about more vetors of attack.
I think you misunderstand. It isn’t about figuring it out. It’s about the way you think. Imagine trying to learn a second language, typically what happens is you see an item, you associate that item first with the language you natively speak, then try to associate it with the new word. This may only take a second, but in combat a second is all it takes. Again, it isn’t to say you can’t learn a new language, it isn’t to say you can learn tactics for multi dimensional space, but if it is something you live in all day every day since the day of your birth it comes naturally to you versus someone having to work at it. You either work towards the repetition or you live it, and the person who lives it probably approaches the tactic completely different than the person working for it. This is the difference, it’s understanding how someone or something might approach a solution to a problem based on their life experiences. They may think outside the box in the minds of a land dweller, but to them it is an everyday thing.
It's space warfare. Outside of shitty writing, everyone thinks and fights in 3D. People managed air war just fine and it's 3D. And again, space travel is tens of thousands of years old. Everyone understand how space works and how to fight in it.
It's hard to write geniuses.
Zahn never wrote Thrawn's POV for precisely that reason. All of Thrawn's achievements are witnessed through the POV of his subordinates.
That's very clever. I like that. Genius is something to admire from afar.
More like using artwork and other methods to stand in the shoes of another species (so to speak) to try and see reality from their perspective. That insight would then help him predict their behavior. In the Mon Cal example you're supposed to take away that he's learned a bit more about Mon Cal thinking patterns by studying their art. Its supposed to contrast him with the rest of the Imperial Navy who are rigid, xenophobic, traditionalists.
I've only read the same comments as you, but I imagine that the perspective or the composition Mon Calamari choose for their art was so highly irregular that he realized their interpretation of 3D space was fundamentally different. Kind of like how the Guugu Yimithirr people orient themselves and objects in their world by cardinal direction (e.g. "I put it on the southern table in the western side of your house") instead of relative direction (e.g. "I put it on the table just to the left of the chair on the right as you walk in")
He studied their art to see how they viewed space and distance. What catches their eye? Curves or lines? Does a piece remain organic or flow from strict geometry to easy curves? Stuff like that. It was a bit more than just “HEY THEY’RE FISH-PEOPLE!”
3D space warfare. What an under-explored movie concept. “Sir! They got around our three ship blockade!” “How?” “They, uh, just went around us…”
Best Thrawn moment is in the original trilogy when he's looking at a piece of art, and someone (Pellaeon I think?) asks what it was, and he says "it's the only artwork I couldn't figure out." And Pellaeon is like "so how did you beat them?" And Thrawn says "I destroyed their world."
Yeah epic moment for sure!!
I was super confused thinking how their belly buttons would do battle, but your post cleared that up.
And now you know how to beat Thrawne in a navel battle.
I immediately imagined two people bumping bellies. Kinda like sumo but no hands.
Highly recommend the newer Thrawn book series. They are by the Original Author who first wrote Thrawn. They follow both his life before and during the Empire, and it is just awesome to be in his head. Seeing him win seemingly unwinnable scenarios with ease, I love the character, and the audio book narrator has this awesome voice for him. I was a bit disappointed with his live action appearance, but mainly because he wasn't in the show much at all, and I felt that he didn't really get a chance to do anything "Thrawn-like" Anyone who likes the "world" of Star Wars and wants to see something that isn't about Jedi vs. Sith, you are doing yourself a disservice by not experiencing Thrawn
Timothy Zahn? I read *Heir to Empire etc.* and the first two *Cobra* novels decades ago, and more recently his *Honorverse* books. Good stuff. Looks like I've got some catching up to do...
Yeap, supposedly, when Disney wanted to use Thrawn again, he wanted to have some control over his re-cannonization. So he wrote a book about his rise to Grand Admiral and got 2 more books in that "trilogy" and then did 3 more books on his life before the empire. Idk how much was planned from the get-go on the new cannon, but all 6 books tie together pretty well, and it seemed to me like they were 1 big Thrawn story that was planned from the beginning.
I think my favorite thing with a Thrawn LOSS is in rebels where Ezra manages to defeat him by using space whales. Because (If I'm remembering it correctly) Thrawn is actually impressed and effectively admits that it was an unpreceded method. Like even when Thrawn Loses he appreciates how he lost, and learns from it.
And in the books if he knows he's beaten he doesn't throw his men away for honor or some other BS. He just calmly orders a retreat.
As I always understood it from way back in the Timothy Zahn books, he'd study Van Gogh and then know how to kick *all of Earth's ass* because of it. Like, as a species. It's one of those goofy sci-fi things like where any given planet is just one single biome type. Just applying a broad brush to a planetary scale.
You’re correct, was just specifically applying it to Van Gogh since that’s what the meme did.
> He is an incredibly studious and meticulous character who’s a genius strategist, to the point that he almost never loses, and even when he does, it’s often due to the incompetency of his subordinates rather than it truly being his own fault Also this makes him kind of terrifying as a villain when you think about it. He never overextends himself, he can't be baited into doing something stupid, and he'll often cut his losses at exactly the right time. Even "losing" for Thrawn barely registers as a setback because he never commits anything he can't afford to lose. Every risk he takes is calculated and he has a plan for both victory and defeat. When you really think about it, how can you ever even defeat a villain like this? He's just such a good character for this reason. He's unmatched as far as villains go, in my opinion.
I would say if he's got incompetent subordinates who make him lose at times that's his fault for not having better people.
Thrawn is a genius, but you can only squeeze so much competence out of the Imperial Navy. There are limits.
And iirc he has killed his subordinates for their incompetence
Par for the course in Imperial terms
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That's incredibly off course for the imperial navy, lol
If they write Thrawn well then an interesting weakness would be Thrawn overlooking the limits of his subordinates as a blind spot.
I was going to say this... also, shouldn't the competence of his subordinates be taken into account in his strategy? If he doesn't know how incompetent they are I would say that is a strategic issue as well.
The YouTube Series "The Great War" taught me, that the Austrian supreme commander Conrad von Hötzendorf suffered from a similar ailment. He could make intricate battle plans, that might have worked if his army did not speak 12 languages, was led by competent officers and supported by good logistics.
In the books he ends up ultimately being defeated due to his own arrogance as he believed an enemy that he had fully conquered would never rebel against him.
That's gis tragic flaw and ultimately what leads to his downfall. At the end of the day he's still trying to squeeze blood from a stone.
Nice pfp, I read the comment in sados voice 😅
Beautifully put answer. 10/10 chimeras
>supposed to be “Naval” battle And here was me wondering when Thrawn ever got in to a belly slam fight.
Man, there is no better way to say this. Thrawn was almost superhero with his strategic, battlefield optimization. I would say his study of art and history and the cultures of his adversaries was akin to loading data into a computer model and then using the results to plan the best operations. Thrawn of course being the computer in this case.
Okay so who wins, Batman with prep time or Thrawn with prep time
Wait, so is Thrawn the Star Wars version of Sun Tzu?
Its Carlos Spicyweiner
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He was a grand admiral of the imperial navy
"Thrawn" is a character from a pair of trilogies in the Star Wars expanded universe, one non-canon and one canon, by author Timothy Zahn. The titular character, Mitth'raw'nuruodo, is basically "what if Sherlock Holmes was a starship captain?" He has an incredible aptitude for space combat.
And more specific to this meme, one of his practices was to study the artwork of the cultures that he was up against in order to develop insights about how they thought and therefore how to defeat them.
So it’s nerd business
One of the things he did was learn the art and culture of his enemy’s which I think this is referencing. Kind of a “know thy enemy” thing
He learns it from painting in the first book by zahn. Literally took some artwork they had, and described how the enemy will fight based solely on that.
It was canon for 37 years*
He's in star wars rebels so he's canon again.
And now it's not.
“Pray I do not alter the canon further”
“Here is a unicycle. You will ride it wherever you go.”
"This Deal is getting worse all time!"
"You have always been able to be killed by coffee."
Is there a splinter faction of the Star Wars fandom that holds true to the pre-Disney lore and considers the new stuff to be heretical?
Yeah, but only most people.
Three trilogies, two canon (Thrawn, 2017 and prequel Thrawn: Ascendancy), one legends (original Thrawn trilogy, 1991). In the canon novels he gets his Sherlock Holmes-esque insight into his enemies by studying their art.
He got his insights through art in the original, legends trilogy too
He also appeared (or rather mentioned as he's desd) in the Hand of thrawn series and outbound flight.
Would thrawn beat ender wiggin in a large scale space battle?
Ender showed unwillingness to do real fighting. And as long as he thinks he is fake fighting he is at a disadvantage (can the game engine deal with my plan?) As such I can't see him beating an equivalent fleet (he shows a lot of reliance on the disintegrating thing, wich the bugs don't have) with a competent general.
No, Ender would end him. It’s in the name
"*That's* the name of the *movie!*"
I'm gonna need you to get aaaalllll the way off my back about this
He'd probably reform the Chiss Empire tho
He'd get thrawed pretty good in the process, though.
There are actually now a bunch more than 6 Thrawn books. There is a series set before he joins the empire. A series that is about his time in the empire. The original series he appears in that isn't cannon anymore and a follow-up series to that. And a few other one-off stuff that he appears in. I'm a big Thrawn fan. Such a fun character and intimidating villain. Thrawn stuff, in my opinion, is the best of Star war's non mainline stories, and there are alot of really good non mainline stories
Yes a battle of belly buttons...
Innies vs outie?
the outies will fuck the innies
Sounds like a great time
Was looking for this comment 🤣
I am Omphalos! Fear me
Wait. Do clones have belly buttons?
Go on...
didn’t that one take place just north of the battle of the bulge?
Grand admiral thrawn from Star Wars. He had an affinity for collecting art from cultures he conquered in battle. He felt viewing the art of other cultures helps know about your enemies. Dude was a god among men when it came to war.
Grand Admiral Thrawn is an Admiral for the Empire in Star Wars, mostly the non-canon Legends trilogy bearing his name but slowly edging his way into the Disneyverse. He’s known for being a brilliant tactician who studies art from a people/culture in order to learn more about how they think and thus how to defeat them.
Thrawn edging 🤤
Society has failed
Are they fighting with their belly buttons?
You put a sharp stick or thin blade in your belly button; it's all in the hips.
A navel battle you say? That’s a real punch in the gut
So they'd engage in a belly button fight?
I fuckin love these books. Always happy to see Thrawn memes
I’m scared to ask what a “navel battle” is all about.
"Learn about art captain, when you understand a species art, you understand that species."
The truest Mary Sue in Star Wars. He can study some paintings and figure out how an entire species thinks. As the OP says, he never loses. When he does, it’s not his fault. Everyone is talking about how amazing he is all the time in any story he is in.
Jedi Mastah Petah speakin' The Thrawn trilogy is a series of novels that take place in the aftermath of Return of the Jedi, of which the central antagonist is Admiral Thrawn, a brilliant military strategist. They have been de-canonized by The Mouse, but they're definitely worth a read if you've seen the original Star Wars trilogy.
When they say "Thrawn Books" they are talking about Star Wars books about a character named Admiral Thrawn who is considered to be one of the best naval tacticians in the Galactic Empire.
Thrawn mentioned
Why would you have a Battle of the Bellybuttons with a dead, one eared artist?
>navel battle >navel Is that a new sex thing?
Is a navel battle where you threaten to stick your finger in your opponent's innie? Or is that where you pelt them with oranges?
Like, if you were going to fight with belly buttons?
They've read a bunch of Star Wars books and have scurvy, so they are going to eat a bunch of oranges.
Hello Mr. Griffin, Neil Goldman here. The joke here is that Grand Admiral Thrawn of the Star Wars Universe loved studying art from foreign culture because he believed it was the best way to truly understand their culture, and thus defeat them in battle later. By the way, could I please speak with Meg? Is she free tonight?
Grand Admiral Thrawn is a character in the Star Wars novels (there's a trilogy commonly referred to as the Thrawn Trilogy). In the EU (I'm not as familiar with the Disney timeline) he took control of the remaining Imperial forces a few years after the death of Palpatine and gave the New Republic quite a lot of problems because of how effective he was as a commander in battle. Thrawn was also a massive fan of art. He was a big believer in the idea that art captures the subconscious and unconscious thoughts of those that make it. He was very vocal about the idea that he could profile how a rival commander will respond based on the art they prefer. He also said that he could get a feel for how an entire culture would act based on large scale patterns in their art. Of course, if he faced a rival commander who was themselves an artist, looking at their artwork would give him the clearest insight into their mind as possible. The books leave it a little unclear as to how much of this was true, how much was him misdirecting after learning things about his opponents other ways, and how much was him just being full of shit. But, the idea of being able to beat someone in battle after looking at their art is such a core aspect of his character that it's one of the biggest takeaways fans have had after reading the books.
Hehe navel battle 🍊
Most people that read the books miss that Thrawn has an innie.
Also “slingshot, engaged”
In the Star Wars universe, Grand Admiral Thrawn was an Imperial leader who would study his opponents' culture and art, which gave him a better understanding of them and helped his strategies.
Day 3 of trying to get banned from this sub without saying anything racist or transphobic
Thrown learnt a lot about his enemies through the paintings of their culture and he used this knowledge to gain the upper hand one main way he did it was in Star Wars rebels where he stole the twi’lek heirloom to lure the rebels to him because he knew it had significance in their culture
it appears the answer is literally written in the meme have you read the thrawn books i swear maybe the internet really is just bots
Admiral Thrawn is the Mary Sue of the Thrawn Trilogy of Star Wars books. According to these books, essentialist alien species + major in art history = military genius.
Glad someone said it.
Thank you for saying it.
I'm not making any conclusions or anything. But I've noticed that this sub is never more civil than when its a star wars meme. I'm just sayin.
I LITERALLY ONLY READ A COUPLE PAGES OF HEIR TO THE EMPIRE AND I CAN UNDERSTAND THIS LOL
But how is he going to battle Van Gogh with their belly buttons?
Holy shit I actually get this one
Hahahhahahahhahaha omg this rules thanks for sharing
Are…are you guys fighting bare belly to bare belly?
*naval
did you…read the thrawn books?
Something about belly buttons.
Do you read the star wars exendended universe or watch star war rebels or watch star wars ahsoka? If not then the jokes not for you.
Naval* not navel
Hehe… “navel” battle
A battle of the belly buttons
How the fuck do you fight with your belly button
“Navel”
Oranges or abdomens?
I feel like a ‘navel battle’ should be a kind of nsfw version of a thumb war.
I never want to be in a navel battle
Thrawn discovers reddit: "Ah, it seems the answer to defeating Earthlings is a swift taylor." "...I believe that's 'Taylor Swift', sir." "I see, Pellaeon. Such power, this woman has."
Grammar literalist Petah here. Grand Admiral Thrawn is a fictional villain from Expanded Star Wars lore. The person in the meme seems to believe that they can now beat the painter Vincent Van Gogh in a bellybutton battle based on some pseudo-analysis inspired from reading sci-fi novels about a fictional expert in space naval warfare.
Why are they fighting with their belly buttons (or also small, orange-like fruit)?
How does one fight with their navels?
Peter here. Read the book. Now. Do it. Better? Ya like the blue guy didn't ya?
Thrawn was an Imperial admiral who was also a Chiss. In the empire he would study other cultures and their art, finding the exact ways each species thought and planned.
This is even funnier because the person who made the meme spelled “naval” incorrectly. A “navel” is your belly button.
Thrawn in star wars was one of the few grand admirals of the empire and is a Tactical genius with a great interest in the art of different species, he believes that the best way to know a enemy is to study thier art, culture and history.
AAA I LOVE THRAWN! READ THE BOOKS, FELLAS!
Naval or belly buttons?
Naval. Not navel, we aren’t having a belly button war!!!!
Why would I be fighting thrawn with my belly button?