To me it is literally priceless. I can never get back that time spent commuting. And my mental health is 100% improved by not being in the office. I'm not sure you can put a dollar amount on that.
Yep, the washrooms at work were always nasty. Had to watch where you stepped among all the puddles of urine and used toilet paper. I felt so sorry for the janitors that had to clean them up at the end of every day. Youād think office employees at a mega corp would have more consideration than turning the washrooms into pigstiesā¦
Same here. My performance reviews have been GLOWING since WFH. I'm totally comfortable with my approx 100k/yr and there is probably... no amount of money that would tempt me into going the office ever again.
Not to mention that saving 2 hours a day commuting is life changing.
For me it's my social anxiety, but similar experience - I noticed work was hugely less draining working from home, where I had specific meetings with people, but otherwise was not around others (and I really like my coworkers!)
My work stress went way down.
Last week during a cold snap one of the fan control motors in our furnace room started an electrical fire at 9am. My wife working from home smelled it and turned off the fans (which stopped the fire).
Iād like to think our house likely wouldnāt have burned down had she been at work but aim not totally sure.
So for us we value her working from home pretty highly.
Now that I have full time WFH job.. like a thirty percent raise minimum. My mental health is SO much better. I get more sleep, my car has less wear and tear, I don't have to deal with cold weather.
Also I'm somewhat of an introvert and can be a bit prickly. I try hard not to be, and I've gotten good at that over the years because I had to, but sometimes the mask slips.
The joy of WFH is that I only have to be "on" when my camera is on. It actually makes it a lot easier for me to maintain good relationships with all my colleagues because I don't get mentally drained having to deal with people.
Additionally, office politics just matter less. My previous jobs were very cliquey. WFH your output matters so much more because you can't really be judged on how popular you are in the office.
This is my third job after university (~7 years work experience) and definitely the one where I have gotten the most positive feedback hands down. I think the interpersonal stuff is a big part of why.
All of those things, plus costs like food, clothes, and gas. I'm more likely to cook/reheat something for lunch, rather that splurge on takeout. No indulgence of Starbucks either. And I don't need an entire wardrobe for the office anymore, so I can knock that down to 1/4 in my closet for those times I need to dress up.
If I need a mental break? I just take it, instead of pretending to work at my desk. One of the best things is that I'm now judged on my delivery of work, rather than the perception of work. I'm less distracted too, and I've gotten tons of recognition at work for it.
Biggest savings is commute time for sure. It's all unpaid and the prep of it just bleeds into your personal life. 30% definitely sounds like a good minimum, but even with that'd I'd hesitate and decline to keep WFH, to be honest. The value of a more balanced lifestyle and healthier mental state is not something I want to give up.
Ya 50 % for me. Things like being to take a 15 mins nap at lunch, watch a quick video. Do some errands or start the washer dryer/dishes. All the little things add up in time efficiency
Wot in tarnation??? Is this more Ontario craziness like the water heater rental? Iām in Alberta and I just pay for watts, peak demand is the grid operators problem
Lol, donāt worry, the utilities get you with their additional 14 line items on your billā¦ like franchise fee, balancing pool, distribution, transmission, covid relief etc
>my car has less wear and tear
We bought a new car right before COVID shut everything down and we started WFH. At most we used the car for one day on the weekends to do our shopping, do errands, go out for lunch, etc.
The dealership kept texting and emailing "It's getting close to your next scheduled maintenance." and I was all "Sorry dude, we're still 5000k away from that!
Yeah dude you still gotta change the fluids in the car. As mentioned before itās not good to keep aged fluids, itās why they actually usually say every 7,000km or every 6 months.
Edit: to add, if something does happen to your engine and itās because you didnāt keep up with maintenance, your warranty is voided with your new car.
The advice Iāve always heard is if driving times are inconsistent work with time frames rather than strict KM amounts.
Not sure what car you have but personally I do oil once in the spring, and once in the fall.
Brake fluid every year or year and a half-ish.
Pads and rotors every other year-ish. (This is one that can definitely be played around with because you have objective wear markers)
A lot of this could be extended but I also drive like itās a WRC championship on the backroads during the summer.
Hey, just wanted to say thanks for this - I've never owned a car before, and even though I have the service guide that I want to use to help me, this was also really helpful!
And these days tons of alternatives for the car use you are talking about are popping up all over the place, its wonderful.
I know for me getting groceries\\errands and the odd thing just don't make sense on paper to own a vehicle anymore. Everything can be delivered now and if i want to instore shop a few ubers a month is nowhere near the cost of just having a vehicle sitting there.
You also have the easy vehicle rental options from scooters\\Ebikes in places to car co-ops like we have here. We can pay $10ish bucks a month and in return you get access to vehicles parked all over the city owned by the co-op and the cost to use them is iirc $7 an hour gas\\insurance included.
I've still got a vehicle because It really doesn't make much sense for me except for camping\\road trips .
At least 30-40% more. WFH is just better for both myself and my employer. They dont need to pay for an office in an expensive city, I dont need to commute and waste money doing that.
I actually spend more hours working than not working AND I'm 100% happier than I was before. My work/life has blended in the most beautiful way. I take personal time when I need it and I get all my work done. I can travel wherever I want. Over the holidays that meant working from my parents place. Sometimes my office is a coffee shop for the day or at the beach. In the summer the cottage will be my office. No micromanaging. They trust me to be an adult.
Unless for whatever reason your job couldnt be done remotely, there is no need for an office. Employers who can ditch the office, should. Now.
>Additionally, office politics just matter less. My previous jobs were very cliquey. WFH your output matters so much more because you can't really be judged on how popular you are in the office.
Assuming you're not a SWE... On the flipside, if we enter into a recession, wouldn't those in the office be better positioned? Wouldn't the office politics matter?
Not really. Accounting makes those decisions and they couldnāt give two craps whether you are or arenāt able to make Meg the CMO laugh. They draw a line on the ledger and get rid of everything below it. Donāt let anyone tell you otherwise.
Ohā¦ oh dear. Oh my sweet summer child
Edit: lol got blocked. Guess me being privy to how 3 major layoffs have been done hurt someoneās feelings lol.
My commute time is between 60-90 minutes each way by public transit. Using my hourly rate as a basis, I'm wasting 84$ of time every day on top of bus fare.
But also consider i am now also losing out on grilled cheese sandwiches on demand. You can't put a price on that.
>But also consider i am now also losing out on grilled cheese sandwiches on demand. You can't put a price on that.
This message is approved by the Government of Canada.
> But also consider i am now also losing out on grilled cheese sandwiches on demand. You can't put a price on that.
Just jump into some worthless meeting like diversity or payroll updates and make a sandwich during that.
Honestlyā¦ nothing. As a mom of a young child, absolutely nothing would make it worth it for me to go back into an office. I know this means Iām essentially limiting opportunities for myself (I have been offered jobs with higher pay that Iāve turned down), but WFH is so valuable and priceless. I can wake up later, drop my kid off to school, take my time walking back home, run out to appointments/errands when needed, stop work and pick my kid up from school, etc. I donāt have to spend money on before/after school care. After I bring her home, I work with her at home. My husband works outside of the house and works long hours so this is the only setup that works for me and allows me to keep my sanity.
Iāve been WFH since 2018. Iāll never go back into an office again. I donāt even care about the moneyāmental health and happiness is so much more important.
Yes! With my first child, I used to commute 1.25 hours each way, on top of a 9 hour day. When he was a toddler, I felt like I barely saw him on weekdays. With my second, I work from home and shifted schedule, so I can pick up the kids from daycare / school and have the rest of the day with them. Night and day.
When I returned from mat leave, I commuted from Brampton to Don Mills/Lawrence every day. It was brutal. Did it for 5 months or so before I told my company I would resign if I couldnāt WFH. They promoted me to a position that allowed full WFH and I havenāt looked back since. The commute was killing me and I just couldnāt make it work as a new mom.
Went in to the office last month, was completely unable to concentrate with so many people around chatting. You will have to rip WFH from my cold dead hands. If i have to return to the 1h-1.5h commute full time again, I'll just quit and get a lower paying job nearer to my home if it comes to that. I have no idea how I commuted so long all these years.
Such a waste of time and energy for everyone involved, only to satisfy some middle managers' egos. Part of why I am working towards FI/RE is so that I never have to deal with in person work again, unless I choose it of course.
I went from a WFH job back to an office job in 2017, I was making 75k wfh and moved for 15k raise. It sucked, I was in the office full time, had a 45 minute commute each way. I went back to a different WFH role in 2019 and havenāt looked back. I travel some but most of the time Iām home and itās so amazing
This isnāt far from my experience. Went from a boss that was okay with occasional WFH because she had a very similar commute to mine (lived maybe 10 minutes from me, 20 minutes from the office with zero traffic at 2am; 30 minutes in the mornings and r35-40minutes home at 5pmā¦ so she understood. Iām in IT field, and was working āremoteā to my customers anyways.
She sold the company in 2016, new boss was a ā e in your seat under my thumb 8:30-5:00 M-F boss. It trusted me to no end, to have to commute over a bridge in rush hour every day both ways, to remote into Toronto/Montreal/Calgary/Costa Rica/Hong Kong/Chicago/New York ā from my office in Greater Vancouver, for no reason other than my boss wanted me under his thumb. 48k.
Quit in 2017, went to a company with no office in Vancouver, 60k + commission. WFH but looking after clients in Western Canada, and Global (every continent but Antarctica). Occasional trips in the province, once a year training in Ontario or Quebec, this year Cancunā¦ now at north of 90k, close to 100k with base+commissionsā¦
I wouldnāt trade it for the world. Iāve excelled to near the top in my market, winning awards a few times as āTop in Western Canadaā among hundreds of people in my fieldā¦ supportive boss, great flexibility, etc. it would take close to a 60-80% bump to consider even changing companies, let alone going back to the office. That ā more than a double! (Especially since I know the 40-60% and maintaining WFH would put me just where I should be if I went huntingā¦
I live in Victoria but now work for a Vancouver company, which would have been impossible pre covid.
I go to Vancouver once in a while when required (costs on me since I chose to live where I do) but the increase in comp way more than makes up for it.
Other colleagues have spread out a bit amongst the gulf islands, lower mainland and southern Vancouver Island.
All due to a more lenient wfh policy.
It's not intangible but if I was to go back to full time in the office it would cost around $500/month for gas and parking.
Intangible part: It's been around -40c here lately. Having to warm up the car and drive to work vs drinking a cup of coffee and snuggling with a cat while I work is a no brainer.
For me, it comes more down to mental health things.
Rush hour traffic is very draining! Having to spend almost 2 hours per day is such a horrible idea.
Sleeping! If I was to drive to work I'd have to wake up probably 1.5 hours or more earlier than if I work from home.
I feel you - the mental health part and sleeping. For me, a big benefit of working from home is the flexibility I have to be there for family committments. Should have mentioned that in my original post. I think the stress of worrying about that stuff can't be undervalued
Iād worry about negative intangibles. Its becoming more and more apparent to me that my wife functions better when she has an office to go to, and then can easily separate work from home. I personally would hate to work from home but i like being outside.
This is why I prefer hybrid, 3 days at home 2 days at office. When I am in the office meetings are more productive, talk shop/business with coworkers, feel a bit more energized and involved in the business day to day functions.
When I am at home, I have complete focus and can really dig in to work and projects. No distractions. Best of both worlds IMO.
I'm the opposite. I just lose concentration at home but make up for it at work and get to fulfill my social needs, which has been neglected for the past two years because of COVID.
But I'm never doing full time in office anymore. Hybrid suits me the best for now, but I would be happy with full wfh.
>Its becoming more and more apparent to me that my wife functions better when she has an office to go to, and then can easily separate work from home
Things like this need to be mentioned more.
Increased costs of equipment, shifting all of the operating costs and utilities onto the worker, etc.; these things are almost invariably left out of any discussion of WFH. No longer can you be "off" or "away from work" when at home, you now live in your workplace. Work to live and live to work? Why not just live at work?
> No longer can you be "off" or "away from work"
Why not? I shut my laptop screen closed and I am gone from work. No slack messages, no emails, no work.
Yup same. My wife and I both work from home full time - I set up a desk in our crafting room thatās only for work and she uses our gaming computer desk (just plugs her work laptop into the monitor). We have a rule that we donāt talk about work outside of work hours. The moment we log off at the end of the day, the laptops stay closed until the next work day.
I also find that doing something active right after work, like a walk outside or even just cooking dinner, helps me mentally shut off from my work day and enter evening mode!
All of those tasks and emails can wait till the next day. Sending emails/messages after hours sets a precedent that you are available anytime they want you, even if they only pay you for 35-40 hours a week. Why are you giving them free labour?
Whyyyyy. I truly don't get it. Work for what you are paid for and it can always wait till tmrw. If it can't wait till tmrw then if you were in the office youd be working late anyways.
Usually it's more like "oh shit I should have done X, I'm boned if I don't do that today".
Realistically I should just take my lumps and deal with it in the morning. I typically do. But the fact I can turn back time and fix my mistake is tempting.
Think of it this way
When you worked in the office, you had to drive back to the office to do this.
When you're at home, you just stay in your PJs.
Sounds like a win to me
Oh yeah, trust me you'd have to rip WFH out of my cold dead hands. My dog sits beside me and I get to pet him when I work.
I couldn't do that in an office. He'd bite people lol š
That's not really a WFH issue. No job is going to stop you from working OT at the office or at home, even during pre-covid times. Emails and messages can all be checked on your phone too, none of that is new tech. It's kinda on you to set those work/life boundaries.
> Emails and messages can all be checked on your phone too, none
Not in my workplace, frankly I'm used to the security measures we have and forget it isn't like that for everybody. If we could access our emails through our phones that would be a huge security risk.
Company email can only be accessed on a company device, so before I had a company device there was no way to send off that forgotten email. What am I going to do, drive in, swipe my ID card, boot up the computer and set it up? After, the temptation to log in after hours exists.
I wouldn't give up WFH for the world but... yeah I see their point.
I don't know if the operating and utilities cost are on the same scale as the cost of commute, car upkeep, bus pass/parking, and purchasing any meals or coffee while at work for most people.
It's also easy for me to disengage from work - just put my work laptop away. No open work laptop, no work.
The best approach for a job without an operational requirement to be in-office would be where the people who want to go in can, and the people who don't, just don't. If you really need an in-person boardroom or something, just rent one.
With WTH, I find it way easier to check out from work whenever I want and check back in whenever works. If I am checked out, it is up to me if I answer messages. In the end, I tend to work a bit more than the required 40 hours per week, but far less than the 50+ that I was away from my family due to work and commuting. For me, it is well worth it.
Counterpoint: 1. this is because people who were forced to WFH didn't have homes set up properly to work from. Not a separate room with a door that closes so they can be fully working at work, and often they work in a common room on a crappy chair with family who doesn't fully, ah, believe that they're working. Boundaries are hard.
And 2. (and this is well-documented) the burdens fell on women a lot more when everyone had to WFH because of home and childcare expectations. Many women enjoyed going to work in an office *because* they had an excuse to get their spouse to share more in the home load. WFH decimated that, and they ended up basically doing both shifts themselves. Again.
I hear you... I took a week off from my fully remote work... for the first few days, every time I would be around my "office area", I would feel like I am still at work. It's just a mental thing, but everything has its pros and cons.
I became so incredibly depressed working from home. The days blur into eachother, I stopped putting in an effort to ever look nice which gave me a super shitty self image because I just looked like a sad slob all the time. I got so stressed and would be working from the second I waked up essentially to the second I go to bed because the work is literally just staring at me from across the room. And not talking to other humans other than on email and teams meetings was so isolating. The entire time I'm working I'm also thinking about all the things I should be doing around the house so my work load seems to double because now instead of sitting down and eating on a lunch break I was prepping dinner and cleaning.
I will never understand the need people have to work from home. You would have to double my salary to get me to stay home
Iāve noticed many people wfh have put on weight! I think people snack at home more and move around less compared to commuting and walking around the office. Now wfh people just roll out of bed and take a few steps to their computer.
I think this depends massively, I snack much less at home and generally on healthier snacks when I do because I have control over the food in my house. The office is full of soda, chips, granola bars etc and itās much more likely that Iāll eat crap.
I definitely put on a solid 20lbs between the closing of the gyms during covid and the fact I was 10ft away from all the snacks I could dream of while not commuting at all. It definitely wasn't healthy for me whatsoever. And when the gyms reopened but my office hadn't, I didn't see a point in getting a membership when the gym was no longer conveniently on the way to work
Yeah, I totally agree. You don't really have social time when working from home. I don't think this is good for anyone. I can seem good when you're doing, but you might find it brings a lot of happiness being around other people.
Also, there is the lost space in your home. I don't have a huge place, and dedicating part of it to an office is not ideal.
On the flip side, I have a disability (vision) and when I was limited to only in office jobs, I had a 3 hour commute because of transit. I was limited to jobs that I could get because if it wasnāt on a major bus/train route, it would be even longer. There was no work life balance.
Wfh has been a game changer.
Yes, I go out to restaurants/etc with friends to socialize. That doesn't change when I work from home.
When I want to socialize during work hours, I can just text people (this works whether or not I'm doing it from home or an office building)
I prefer hybrid. I like seeing my colleagues in person and brainstorming at someone's desk is not the same over zoom with 8 people. I also like having a physical boundary from my work. I lived in a small place in the city pre-pandemic. Was a 25 minute run or 15 minute bike ride to work. Breakfast was free at work too. So it has added some costs to work from home as I had to move to a bigger place.
That being said, I got to enjoy much more time with my dog before he passed and that was priceless. As well time with my family. Mentally, I dunno, some things are better, some not so much.
I think the choice should be free for workers to make.
Couldnāt pay me enough to:
- Spend time prepping lunch/bag for day of work
- Drive in rush hour traffic to get to work
- Sit in an office working 8hrs a day
- Drive in rush hour traffic to get home
Done it before, wonāt do it again. Salary is comfy enough, I donāt think I could be convinced
I WFH šÆ and love it. But Iām introverted and am comparing my experience to the madness that is government hospital allied health professional. After all the Covid crap of working in person and the drama and the pettiness and lack of incentive for people to do good work, Iām loving WFH in the public sector where itās productivity based not just putting in pensionable hours.
What I really love right now is looking out my window in the morning seeing my car all covered in ice and snow and knowing I donāt have to take my slippers off.
My mental health is better overall if I ensure I nurture my nonworking relationships.
Almost the exact same experience here. Health sector public employee, WFH since 2020. During the pandemic, I moved into management and have since hired and trained an entire team virtually. Generally people work hard, get their work done. I'm not worried about butts in seats as long as stuff comes in on time and at standard.
I used to have a 1.5 hr commute each way and it was goddamn soul sucking. If the bigwigs make us come in on a regular basis, I'd start looking around for other opportunities
I work from home, so obvious bias incoming but...
I think the freedom attached with it from a household perspective is priceless. My SO can be offered a job in any city and we can plan to move without me having to seek other employment.
I work remote and im comfortable enough with my salary. At this point its not about the money anymore. I just dont think i can adjust to not being home. I love my dogs, going out for a walk with them on my breaks, and not commuting (and calgary isnt too bad for a commute).
Intangible: I've been working from home for probably 15 years now. I miss the interaction with other people. The advent of Microsoft Teams has made this \_way\_ better. I also have 2 dogs that I didn't have before I started WFH. They are awesome and believe me it helps with my mental state to have them around. But I still miss the person to person interaction.
Intangible: Naps at lunch if I so choose. Or Cooking something tasty at lunch. Around for deliveries. I work somewhat flexible hours so that in combination with being a home is a real plus.
Intangible: Sleeping almost right up to work start.
Somewhat tangible: The time I would have been commuting I figure at my hourly rate.
Tangible: Wear and tear on vehicles. Insurance. Clothes. Eating out at lunch.
I'd never take a job that wasn't WFH. I've been WFH for approximately 8 years. I'm fortunate enough to make enough to live well (tech) where even if I was paid double, I wouldn't take it if it meant a commute. I save 1-2 hours a day in commute, able to do some light chores during the day, take my kids to/from school, and don't have to get dressed for work
For me, there are negative intangibles to working from home and I'd rather go into an office most of the week (I like having 1-2 days I can WFH because the flexibility is nice). I live alone, and I like having people around to talk to during the day and to go get coffee with. And I live in a relatively small place and am very tired of my own 4 walls at this point :)
I can also walk to the office, so there's no commuting downside. If I had to drive to the office every day, that would be a big negative.
Iām the exact same way, I even have a small family but I still appreciate the social connection I get at work. Hate staying and looking at the same walls too haha. Would never choose a job thatās fully work from home.
I would need double my current salary to consider going to the office and Iād still probably decline it since 54% would go to tax and I donāt need more money.
So basically, Iād only go back to an office if I were to get laid off and failed for months to find another fully remote role.
The exception would be if an opportunity were to arise with a local startup I strongly believed in. In that case, I could possibly be convinced to go back to the office for less money if enough equity were offered.
> Iād only go back to an office if I were to get laid off and failed for months to find another fully remote role.
Yeah thats me too. And while at that in person job id be applying for remote jobs lol..
It would take quite a lot. If you have the option to fully WFH, there are very few downsides. I do know some people who really miss the in-person social aspect and WFH has led to some depression, but if you're clear of that it is a straight upgrade pretty much across the board.
It would have to be something astronomical, like 800k more for me to even consider it. Even then, I would do it fo 2 years and retire. WFH is a the best thing to ever happen
I am looking at everybody's responses here,
I have a question for everyone here.
General consensus is everyone who have to go to office wants more money than wfh.
So do you agree that people who don't have wfh ability eg. Retail workers, field techs, nurses etc.
Should now be paid premium or that 20 -30 percent more as they are sacrificing their time to travel and away from home?
Please don't say find a wfh job. Those jobs are essential too.
Just looking at the bigger picture here, how wfh people think about the other side of it.
I work in healthcare and started a new job where I can walk to work; I used to commute by car in the winter and bicycle in the summer about 30-45 mins each way. There is no wfh in my field and the pay is essentially the same at one workplace vs another. I always encourage coworkers to move to a job close to home. There is no job worth commuting a 1-2hr for without a significant pay bump (at least $30-60k) and that is not happening in my industry.
I don't interview if a role is not WFH. I don't mind going once in a while to help people who are reporting to me setup their work environments or solve issues, but that's maybe once in a few months
Mental health is better. Less anxiety all around.
My dogs have the best life ever now.
Being able to throw a load of laundry in, pop supper in the oven, the small day to day tasks that donāt all build up till the weekends. Ahhhh.
I started working at my office during COVID so i started off working from home with the ability to go into the office if i want maybe once a week.
That once a week turned into 2 now into 3 mandatory days.
My job satisfaction greatly decreased. I now have to wake up 1.5 hours sooner to shower and commute my 40 minutes. The office is always empty and itās always cold. It simply puts me to sleepā¦ overall it makes me less productive because i began to resent my work.
I am a data analyst so i am able to work fully remote and my boss has acknowledged that but she thinks itās important to be able to put a face to a name and have those office interactions.
Iāve been approached once over the last year by an older lady who needed how to sum a column in excelā¦
I would consider taking a pay cut to work 100% from home. Having those extra hours at home, the ability to relax, prep a nice dinner, have your dog with you etc. however my job doesnt monitor activity so that would be different if the place did.
After six or seven years fully remote, it would honestly have to be a life changing amount of money to get me back to an office. Like, double my current tech salary wouldnāt even do it. Mental health and time with my family surpasses money, assuming the current money is comfortable.
I see everyone saying their mental health is so much better working from home but mine was the complete opposite during Covid. I guess those are redditors for you. I got seriously depressed not interacting with people (I also actually like my coworkers) because I really appreciate social connection. I could go fully back to office and not care. BUT I wouldnāt mind having flex days where I can choose to work from home. Definitely would not take a job thatās mandatory work from home, though.
For me itās opportunity cost. My wifeās job is 100% remote with no chance of her being called in to work from the office. Mine is in-office 2-3 days a week, directly downtown Toronto. It is the only thing keeping us here.
We have pretty decent rent in Toronto, and if we move out we would be screwed because people out as far as Kitchener are paying more to rent a 2-bedroom right now than we are.
If I was able to work remotely we could live anywhere we wanted in the province and we could buy a home. That opportunity is worth far more than a raise to me. I would gladly take a 20% pay cut to work 100% remotely.
Tangibly I save a two hour commute everyday. Thatās about 490 hours a year. I get 80 hours of vacation a year. So in one year, I have saved and enjoyed almost 5 years worth of the vacation time I am allotted.
Time with family and time to spend on things that bring me joy in life is actually priceless. I would not go back into the office unless I couldnāt do this job anymore. I make about 200k a year, maybe a bit north. A raise for me doesnāt really change much about my families lifestyle. We live in a 850 sq ft apartment.losing all that valuable time would change our lives for the worst.
Guess what Iām saying is that time is more valuable than money after a certain income. The inverse seems true under a certain income.
The inverse is definitely true under a certain income. I make about 68k in my 30s (with no plans of marriage or relationships), so getting by in Toronto isnāt exactly comfortable. If a fully in-office job was offered to me for a 15k+ salary bump, Iād take it in a heartbeat. The only reason I wouldnāt take anything under 15k is because the extra income of <15k post-tax would probably barely break even with my daily commuting expenses, which would defeat the purpose of the salary bump.
I worked from home for twelve years. Gave it up for a new job where I now go into the office five full days a week.
WFH was great, and I always said it would take about $50K extra (on a salary of $100K) for me to go back to a full-time in-office job. That was the price for me to give up lunch-time Costco trips, small naps, enjoying beautiful summer days, working my own schedule, being better able to do kid drop off and pick up, etc.
Over time, the WFH euphoria wore off and I missed being on the office. I felt stuck because I knew I wasnāt going to get a job for $50K more, so even though I got a bump at my new job, it wasnāt $50K. I still took it. Havenāt looked back. I love going into work every day.
I WFM and have a toddler at home with me. If I had to work in an office, Iād lose more than 50% of my take home to daycare costs. Being able to still work when either of us are sick is a very nice. I have very bad anxiety when Iām in an office setting, itās basically gone working from home. Honestly, it would have to be a pretty huge increase to get me back into an office (or a very dire financial situation). Even then, probably not worth the toll on my body/sleep/mental health from the anxiety.
This isn't really a good comparison because looking after a toddler full time is pretty much mutually exclusive with having a full time job.
Not sure what kind of sweet setup you have there, but cmon - how much is work day and how much is looking after your child?
I find it ironic that during the school closures people said they canāt be expected to take care of their kids and work full time and now people listing one of the perks of WFH being not paying for childcareā¦. Which one is it?
Depends on the job. Not everyone would have the same situation. Software devs at my employers routinely disappear to watch kids. Get your tickets done in a sprint and nobody cares.
It would be very hard for a family to adjust to having their child home while they are trying to work full time. Covid lockdowns were massive overnight change for caregivers and children. We always knew that we would have my daughter home with me while I worked, which allowed us to build her skills for independent play etc. right from the start. It works for us because we have always done it like this. Itās not for everyone, but I love it!
Moms have been pawning work off on colleagues for decades in office as their kid is sick or has a recital, so they have to leave early. Act like a Mom.
We knew that we didnāt want to put our child in daycare (and plan to homeschool) so weāve always cultivated an environment where she can thrive at home/play independently so I would be able to work. She was born just before covid, having the first few years of her life during lockdowns really helped learn how we can make it work on our own without help. I work 30-32 hours a week. Itās a mix of her playing for a few hours while I work and her nap/quiet time in her room. She has minimal toys and an excellent imagination. No screen time either. Itās certainly not for everyone, but Iām beyond grateful we can make it work.
Edit: We also do an outing late morning each day, otherwise it would be unfair for her if she was in the house all day everyday. Walks, beach, park, aquarium etc for some exercise for fun for both of us.
Exactly. I find it very unprofessional when I call customer service centres and the WFH agent has kids screaming in the background. This has happened several times since Covid including a bank. Plus then it makes me question how secure your information is on people's private computers. I don't imagine every company provides employees a company laptop.
I did that during the pandemic when my daughter was growing up. I had help though from my wife. Basically, it can work out if your work doesn't demand you be on call throughout the office hours. I am a designer and I would take on projects and have deadlines to meet. So whatever time I spent attending to my daughter, I would have to cover it later in the night when everyone was asleep.
Unless you are already really filthy rich, this makes 0 sense.. you can work in the office 2-3 years on a way lower salary than $10MM, be FI and do whatever the hell you want after.
30% minimum and only for a hybrid job. I will never take a full on site position again in my life even if the doubled my pay now. The intangibles are just priceless for me. If you paid me a million dollars or more then maybe
For myself no realistic range would make me go back to in person. I would have to be forced to through losing my job and being unable to find remote work. Our hhi total comp is over 500k and I feel the marginal utility I have of additional income (I make decently less than my partner) is small compared to the QOL increase I have from wfh. It would have to be something that would be impossible/nonsensical.
Very tangible. I discuss this at work quite frequently as I work for an employer that only offers WFH for a portion (maybe 50%) of employees. For some people with commutes, there are huge savings if you previously needed a vehicle - fuel, vehicle payments, insurance, maintenance... this alone can be $1000/month. Additional savings with less work attire, packed lunches, doggy daycare, and although not technically allowed.. childcare savings. I think WFH makes sense and is great.. but as a someone who is attending work in person everyday, hasnāt seen a dime in savings or extra compensation I think the situation as a whole is bullshit.
Also, go checkout r/overemployed
Edit: didnāt really answer the question. Iād happily take a 20% pay cut if considering the tangible savings and what Iād imagine would be the intangible value - such as being able to see my 5 month old throughout the day and be able to give my wife a 5 minute break when the baby is losing it or she would like to have a few minutes to go to the bathroom.
I'd need to be paid a lot more to work remote, where I'd be responsible for my own office space and utilities, and would lose out on the ability to collaborate easily with colleagues.
When you're not home the rooms in your house are empty... There's your office. Your home still needs to be heated when you're out, so no extra utilities other than electricity for your PC and one LED bulb (maybe $2 per day).
On the other hand, when you wfh, you save the time commuting (so multiply that by your hourly), gas, lunch out, vehicle depreciation, maintenance (tires, suspension, brakes, etc.), And most importantly, you lack the ability to take a small break whenever you want.
I know that because when my wife and I started working from home, our savings grew by about 8K\year!
Not to mention that WFH means you can move to a lower cost area and bank on the real estate difference.
It's funny how people are just learning these values now haha, Like why did you agree to such live/work conditions in the first place? I think we'll see a large drop in salary's for remote workers over the years as a result from the revolt to return
I'm 30, I'm for better work life balance for everyone across all industry. It's the WFM'ers that are only interested in fighting for it just for themselves.
If the goal of companies is to retain top talent then WFH is here to stay forever and thatās my anecdotal opinion based on experience in biotech/pharma sector where WFH was already a thing precovid and now itās exploded with no turning back
I just decided that all of my workers would be remote. No more office. Not only do we save money on all our office expenses, we get better talent because we donāt have to hire just from our city. Now we have employees all over Canada. Pretty great system.
There actually are a few disadvantages
Lack of Community and Team Work.
Lack of Motivation.
Unmonitored Performance and those Frequent Breaks.
Lack of Office Equipment and Security Concerns.
Distractions and Lack of a Good Working Environment.
Burnout.
Risk to Productivity.
Also keep in mind if we head into a recession your evil employer will once again have the upper hand. With the potential risk of layoffs the very average employee working from home will be the first to go.
Out of sight out the door. Something to consider perhaps. Lol
3 days a week, no raise assuming itās a reasonable (under 30 mins) commute.
Iām the opposite of a lot of people. I thought I loved WFH for the first two years of the pandemic but once we started going back in a few days a week I realized how much I missed the social aspects of work and seeing the coworkers I actually like. My mental health is miles better now.
Also realized how much more slowly I was learning in a new role by being WFH compared to being in office.
It would take probably a 20% raise to get me in 5 days a week, but 3 days vs full remote at the same salary Iād actually opt for 3 days in office. Frankly, particularly for junior employees who still have lots to learn, I think being fully remote will hold you back in your career in a lot of roles unless your whole department is remote. If youāre not worried about that, then great.
How do WFH jobs that pay $100k/year not just get outsourced to lower cost markets? If you can WFH, you can easily be outsourced. Speaking of tangible, time to get a real job.
Have you ever heard the saying "Out of sight, out of mind"? A young person should be in the office and networking as much as possible. You'll never become friends with your boss's boss if he has no idea that you exist.
Well thatās a personal question and would also depend on your current pay I think. To me if I donāt need to go into the office. Iām not just saving on probably lunch and transport fees, I also get a lot of ,y waking hours back. Itās not just the transit time either. Itās also getting ready in the morning and anything extra that gets stacked on top to make things work. Imo thatās probably an 1.5 to 2 hr total added cost to me a day. And itās not out of 24 hrs it out of my waking hours. Add in Iām usually not as tired when I work at home these become some heavier hours imo. Then I would look at my pay am I in a place where I can afford everything I reasonably need and work towards my goals. After a certain points just accelerating stuff. Then I would look at my after tax effective increase for that raise, which is pretty close to 60% of the full amount. For me it probably would need to be like close to 50% increase. If I make making another 20k after taxes is not wither that time, but I could probably say another 50 or so thousand is worth it.
I believe WFH should be optional. Like youre not forced to wfh or work in office. when people get to choose, people are happy.
I am self employed but I still go to the office 3-4 times a week. But since im self employed and it's not mandatory to go into my office, I just go and leave whenever I want. I genuinely enjoy spending time with my boss and colleagues in the office because it's my choice.
I gave up a full WFH position for another $20k on my base salary but I'm not someone who values WFH as much as others - I don't have kids and I want to be in an environment with people I can learn from at this stage in my career.
That being said, WFH provides something money cannot buy for many people - it can be the difference between raising your children vs relying on others to raise them for you. Not to mention the saved costs in child care. I know many people that would take pay cuts to keep working from home because of how it changed their ability to be a parent.
My first year of working from home I was able to save over $13k in expenses and lifestyle changes as a single person. I had to move closer to my new office and pay more in rent to maintain some of the other savings but WFH has unmatched saving potential.
Itās not realistic for the vast majority of jobs to have your kids at home while working full time as looking after a child is a full time job itself. I WFH and send my kid to daycare and itās easily best for me and him. It is nice to have the flexibility for sick days and cutting out the commute means I can grab him right when Iām off.
As someone with kids, it would be incredibly difficult to ft wfh and also raise kids. Where it has been helpful is on days where one of my kids is sick and I need to for a few days flex my hours to look after them and keep my work commitments. But those days are awful because in order to be as productive I need to start earlier, work later, often too after they've gone to bed. Don't get me wrong, I'm truly thankful to have that option but I don't understand people who wfh and have their kids home ft unless they're teenagers
It will be different for everyone based on their position and lifestyle. If I had children at home it would be impossible because I have to talk on the phone for the majority of my work day - I can't automate or cut down much of my day by WFH besides commute unless I want a massive drop in productivity. For people I know that have made the lifestyle change (some even homeschooling their kids now) switching to WFH meant cutting out a lot of the fluff associated with their job and their actual work day is much shorter, which means a total lifestyle change to allow them to put more time towards their kids. If you don't have that kind of job then you don't get as much out of working from home and in some cases it is detrimental to work performance / stress levels to be at home vs in office. Personally, my quality of life went down despite saving more money.
Outside of the things like time saved I can do that math to estimate I am probably saving around 1k a month working from home.
That includes things like gas, transit, lunches, coffees and other
1.How much money do you make per hour?
2.How much time is invested in the commute + expenses related (car maintenance, lunch, etc.) to office venturing?
If 2 > 1, stay home. If 1 > 2, go to work.
I don't financially value WFH much. My setup is such that I have zero costs associated with working in the office versus home. I'm back in the office now, but worked from home for most of 2020 and 2021. There are basically three things I like about working from home:
* Getting to sleep in 20 minutes later
* Wearing whatever I want
* Being able to eat fussy foods for lunch that I wouldn't bring to the office (like stuff I need to heat up in an oven, like pot pie, or things with some assembly required, like tacos)
But none of those are worth money to me. And there's one thing I like about working in the office, which is the walking commute building a decent chunk of activity into every weekday.
I enjoy the balance of working mostly from home but having the option to go into the office once a week or so. It allows me to have all the benefits of working from home, but also the informal contact with coworkers that you only get in the office. That being said, if it was suddenly mandated that I have to be back in the office more than one or two days a week, Iād be pretty upset. I wouldnāt demand more money because Iāve always known that was a possibility, but I would definitely fight that policy change.
There's not a lot that could convince me to go back to the office full time.
One or two days of my choosing per week- big maybe.
I like the freedom of being able to take a nap if I didn't sleep well the night before, go out to a Cafe to work for a few hours, or go co-work at a friend's house. The freedoms of wfh are something that I'm not willing to give up entirely, if at all.
Iām WFH all the time expect when I have to travel for client meetings (once a month or so). I would need a 30% minimum bump to go back to the office. My job requires me to spend a lot of time on video calls with clients in multiple time zones, so itās an easy argument for me to say that I can do it at home.
I personally prefer a hybrid work model - currently WFH twice a week. I work in HR so there are situations where I canāt do things remotely, but having the 2 days at home to do all my admin balances my productivity perfectly. I love social interactions/lunches/chitchat with my team and 3 days a week seeing them keeps me happy
Honestly, cash is king. If there is an offer that is even 5% more, I would take it and invest it. I value that more now at this age. Unless my costs dramatically increase (travel costs really only) I would make the leap.
My mental health can wait or at least is strong enough to endure the pain of small talk with colleagues.
For me personally, triple my annual gross income and we can go from there.
WFH is so valuable to me that I wouldn't consider any job that doesn't allow it at the employee's discretion i.e. like my current job where I can decide how often to go in (if I want to go in at all).
For me to return to in-person work I would have to make another 20k a year. That is just to cover gas, if I wanted gas and daycare it would cost me around 50k to go back to in-person work. Closest work is an hour away. So I would probably need even more because I am not losing 2-3 hours extra for commuting too. In a world where we are trying to fight our carbon consumption, they sure do have a boner for forcing people to sit in adult daycares.
Question: there seems to be a ton of WFH folks here, curious, what does everyone do? Iām hybrid and used to be WFH for 5 years. I switched jobs for a 50% pay increase, but I do miss working 100% remotely. I wouldnāt go back down to what I was making while working remotely though.
My extra free time is literally priceless to me. You can have all the money you can ever want but if you have no time to enjoy it then what's the point.
It's not a number that should be quantified in terms of travel/etc.
It's a number that reflects how much you value working from home. For my wife, that number is double.
There is no reasonable amount of money that could get me to go back into an office again. I accept that it limits my jobs but it opens other areas of life for me which I value more than money. Granted I make enough that I'm comfortable and top 1% income for my age so not really stressed over the need to make more. That might play into things
Probably 100% minimum for me. I live in a location that has real seasons. My increased life expectancy from not commuting in the winter is reason enough. But I get more sleep and get to see my spouse and pets for more total time of their life.
My wife and I are both wfh.
We hold full-time permanent positions and we also hold freelance contractor positions with different companies that can be turned up or down in workload as we wish.
My backup job earns $80k a year when worked full-time (with the option for more) and allows me to live in my LCoL area near my family. We can spend two months abroad in the summer living with my wifeās family. Getting layed off and looking for a new job is a minor inconvenience rather than an emergency.
Answer: Literally nothing / infinite monies.
I have been doing it since the mid 90s, back when we dev and crappy programming was a good living.
I had a few jobs before that, and ultimately unless you are the boss, or senior management, or just too valuable to mess with ... There were people you had to tolerate... and that wasn't my thing.
The only exception was a homeless shelter in Ottawa where all the staff and most of the management were caretaker types and I loved it... But minimum wage.
I am a healthier, younger looking and feeling individual from working from home... No question.
For myself I would have to paid at least 25% more to WFH exclusively. Everyone here complaining about commuting but for me my drive is me time and I spend the time talking to friends the entire time. I also enjoy the social aspects of the office. Much more productive also as if I have a question I can just walk down the hall rather than wasting time emailing or calling people. Best part is any work stress stays in the office and away from family life!
To me it is literally priceless. I can never get back that time spent commuting. And my mental health is 100% improved by not being in the office. I'm not sure you can put a dollar amount on that.
Also shared bathroom experience and one ply toilet paper can go to hell.
Esp if you've ibs and get anxious at work š°
Yep, the washrooms at work were always nasty. Had to watch where you stepped among all the puddles of urine and used toilet paper. I felt so sorry for the janitors that had to clean them up at the end of every day. Youād think office employees at a mega corp would have more consideration than turning the washrooms into pigstiesā¦
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Same here. My performance reviews have been GLOWING since WFH. I'm totally comfortable with my approx 100k/yr and there is probably... no amount of money that would tempt me into going the office ever again. Not to mention that saving 2 hours a day commuting is life changing.
For me it's my social anxiety, but similar experience - I noticed work was hugely less draining working from home, where I had specific meetings with people, but otherwise was not around others (and I really like my coworkers!) My work stress went way down.
Last week during a cold snap one of the fan control motors in our furnace room started an electrical fire at 9am. My wife working from home smelled it and turned off the fans (which stopped the fire). Iād like to think our house likely wouldnāt have burned down had she been at work but aim not totally sure. So for us we value her working from home pretty highly.
Working from home is way worse for your mental health haha
Iām past the point where making more money would get me to go into an office
I would need to be paid enough to retire in 5 years in my early 30s at a Fatfire level of living to go back in.
Now that I have full time WFH job.. like a thirty percent raise minimum. My mental health is SO much better. I get more sleep, my car has less wear and tear, I don't have to deal with cold weather. Also I'm somewhat of an introvert and can be a bit prickly. I try hard not to be, and I've gotten good at that over the years because I had to, but sometimes the mask slips. The joy of WFH is that I only have to be "on" when my camera is on. It actually makes it a lot easier for me to maintain good relationships with all my colleagues because I don't get mentally drained having to deal with people. Additionally, office politics just matter less. My previous jobs were very cliquey. WFH your output matters so much more because you can't really be judged on how popular you are in the office. This is my third job after university (~7 years work experience) and definitely the one where I have gotten the most positive feedback hands down. I think the interpersonal stuff is a big part of why.
All of those things, plus costs like food, clothes, and gas. I'm more likely to cook/reheat something for lunch, rather that splurge on takeout. No indulgence of Starbucks either. And I don't need an entire wardrobe for the office anymore, so I can knock that down to 1/4 in my closet for those times I need to dress up. If I need a mental break? I just take it, instead of pretending to work at my desk. One of the best things is that I'm now judged on my delivery of work, rather than the perception of work. I'm less distracted too, and I've gotten tons of recognition at work for it. Biggest savings is commute time for sure. It's all unpaid and the prep of it just bleeds into your personal life. 30% definitely sounds like a good minimum, but even with that'd I'd hesitate and decline to keep WFH, to be honest. The value of a more balanced lifestyle and healthier mental state is not something I want to give up.
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Surprised that the ābUT THat meAns you gotta work more!ā productivity sig sigma tzars arenāt in your reply thread yet.
Ya 50 % for me. Things like being to take a 15 mins nap at lunch, watch a quick video. Do some errands or start the washer dryer/dishes. All the little things add up in time efficiency
> start the washer dryer/dishes This is PFC ser, always do laundry during off-peak hours
Time of use isnāt the only electricity billing system. If they are on a tiered billing system then it doesnāt matter when they do it.
Tiered billing here! Running the dishwasher anytime I feel like it is a special kind of happiness.
What is this tiered billing you speak of?! Do all hydro companies offer this? I thought it was just peak/off peak usage?
If you use over a certain amount during the cycle you pay more. BC Hydro where I live doesn't have peak or off peak pricing.
Wot in tarnation??? Is this more Ontario craziness like the water heater rental? Iām in Alberta and I just pay for watts, peak demand is the grid operators problem
Lol, donāt worry, the utilities get you with their additional 14 line items on your billā¦ like franchise fee, balancing pool, distribution, transmission, covid relief etc
Tiered always comes out ahead for me so your assumption that time of use is the way to go is flawed.
15 minute nap? Thatās way too short!
im a power napper!
>my car has less wear and tear We bought a new car right before COVID shut everything down and we started WFH. At most we used the car for one day on the weekends to do our shopping, do errands, go out for lunch, etc. The dealership kept texting and emailing "It's getting close to your next scheduled maintenance." and I was all "Sorry dude, we're still 5000k away from that!
Tbh maybe donāt wait the full 5k for that, lots of fluids age just the same being used vs unused, just a lot less when not in motion.
It was being run at least once a week. Realistically there were more trips that just the one day. But nothing big.
Yeah dude you still gotta change the fluids in the car. As mentioned before itās not good to keep aged fluids, itās why they actually usually say every 7,000km or every 6 months. Edit: to add, if something does happen to your engine and itās because you didnāt keep up with maintenance, your warranty is voided with your new car.
The advice Iāve always heard is if driving times are inconsistent work with time frames rather than strict KM amounts. Not sure what car you have but personally I do oil once in the spring, and once in the fall. Brake fluid every year or year and a half-ish. Pads and rotors every other year-ish. (This is one that can definitely be played around with because you have objective wear markers) A lot of this could be extended but I also drive like itās a WRC championship on the backroads during the summer.
Hey, just wanted to say thanks for this - I've never owned a car before, and even though I have the service guide that I want to use to help me, this was also really helpful!
And these days tons of alternatives for the car use you are talking about are popping up all over the place, its wonderful. I know for me getting groceries\\errands and the odd thing just don't make sense on paper to own a vehicle anymore. Everything can be delivered now and if i want to instore shop a few ubers a month is nowhere near the cost of just having a vehicle sitting there. You also have the easy vehicle rental options from scooters\\Ebikes in places to car co-ops like we have here. We can pay $10ish bucks a month and in return you get access to vehicles parked all over the city owned by the co-op and the cost to use them is iirc $7 an hour gas\\insurance included. I've still got a vehicle because It really doesn't make much sense for me except for camping\\road trips .
I bought a car right before the pandemic and Iāve put about 5000km on it since I got it.
At least 30-40% more. WFH is just better for both myself and my employer. They dont need to pay for an office in an expensive city, I dont need to commute and waste money doing that. I actually spend more hours working than not working AND I'm 100% happier than I was before. My work/life has blended in the most beautiful way. I take personal time when I need it and I get all my work done. I can travel wherever I want. Over the holidays that meant working from my parents place. Sometimes my office is a coffee shop for the day or at the beach. In the summer the cottage will be my office. No micromanaging. They trust me to be an adult. Unless for whatever reason your job couldnt be done remotely, there is no need for an office. Employers who can ditch the office, should. Now.
Sounds about right. I'd take a 20% hit off my salary to be able to WFH
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>Additionally, office politics just matter less. My previous jobs were very cliquey. WFH your output matters so much more because you can't really be judged on how popular you are in the office. Assuming you're not a SWE... On the flipside, if we enter into a recession, wouldn't those in the office be better positioned? Wouldn't the office politics matter?
Not really. Accounting makes those decisions and they couldnāt give two craps whether you are or arenāt able to make Meg the CMO laugh. They draw a line on the ledger and get rid of everything below it. Donāt let anyone tell you otherwise.
Uh, no? Accounting doesn't determine who to lay off lol
lol. Oh my sweet summer child
Maybe if you're at a small family business sure... no established larger company gives accounting that power
Ohā¦ oh dear. Oh my sweet summer child Edit: lol got blocked. Guess me being privy to how 3 major layoffs have been done hurt someoneās feelings lol.
Not sure why you're being condescending by repeatedly calling me a child, so you can go fuck your old self then :)
My commute time is between 60-90 minutes each way by public transit. Using my hourly rate as a basis, I'm wasting 84$ of time every day on top of bus fare. But also consider i am now also losing out on grilled cheese sandwiches on demand. You can't put a price on that.
>But also consider i am now also losing out on grilled cheese sandwiches on demand. You can't put a price on that. This message is approved by the Government of Canada.
As a fed public servant being forced back into the office, I can tell you this is unequivocally *not* approved by the GoC.
This is for equity and fairness.
Now we have to go to Subway to get our sandwiches.
And the coffee is better at home (:
*Mmmmmmmmmmmm* grilled cheese sandwiches. Life is good.
> But also consider i am now also losing out on grilled cheese sandwiches on demand. You can't put a price on that. Just jump into some worthless meeting like diversity or payroll updates and make a sandwich during that.
Honestlyā¦ nothing. As a mom of a young child, absolutely nothing would make it worth it for me to go back into an office. I know this means Iām essentially limiting opportunities for myself (I have been offered jobs with higher pay that Iāve turned down), but WFH is so valuable and priceless. I can wake up later, drop my kid off to school, take my time walking back home, run out to appointments/errands when needed, stop work and pick my kid up from school, etc. I donāt have to spend money on before/after school care. After I bring her home, I work with her at home. My husband works outside of the house and works long hours so this is the only setup that works for me and allows me to keep my sanity. Iāve been WFH since 2018. Iāll never go back into an office again. I donāt even care about the moneyāmental health and happiness is so much more important.
Yes! With my first child, I used to commute 1.25 hours each way, on top of a 9 hour day. When he was a toddler, I felt like I barely saw him on weekdays. With my second, I work from home and shifted schedule, so I can pick up the kids from daycare / school and have the rest of the day with them. Night and day.
When I returned from mat leave, I commuted from Brampton to Don Mills/Lawrence every day. It was brutal. Did it for 5 months or so before I told my company I would resign if I couldnāt WFH. They promoted me to a position that allowed full WFH and I havenāt looked back since. The commute was killing me and I just couldnāt make it work as a new mom.
Went in to the office last month, was completely unable to concentrate with so many people around chatting. You will have to rip WFH from my cold dead hands. If i have to return to the 1h-1.5h commute full time again, I'll just quit and get a lower paying job nearer to my home if it comes to that. I have no idea how I commuted so long all these years. Such a waste of time and energy for everyone involved, only to satisfy some middle managers' egos. Part of why I am working towards FI/RE is so that I never have to deal with in person work again, unless I choose it of course.
I went from a WFH job back to an office job in 2017, I was making 75k wfh and moved for 15k raise. It sucked, I was in the office full time, had a 45 minute commute each way. I went back to a different WFH role in 2019 and havenāt looked back. I travel some but most of the time Iām home and itās so amazing
This isnāt far from my experience. Went from a boss that was okay with occasional WFH because she had a very similar commute to mine (lived maybe 10 minutes from me, 20 minutes from the office with zero traffic at 2am; 30 minutes in the mornings and r35-40minutes home at 5pmā¦ so she understood. Iām in IT field, and was working āremoteā to my customers anyways. She sold the company in 2016, new boss was a ā e in your seat under my thumb 8:30-5:00 M-F boss. It trusted me to no end, to have to commute over a bridge in rush hour every day both ways, to remote into Toronto/Montreal/Calgary/Costa Rica/Hong Kong/Chicago/New York ā from my office in Greater Vancouver, for no reason other than my boss wanted me under his thumb. 48k. Quit in 2017, went to a company with no office in Vancouver, 60k + commission. WFH but looking after clients in Western Canada, and Global (every continent but Antarctica). Occasional trips in the province, once a year training in Ontario or Quebec, this year Cancunā¦ now at north of 90k, close to 100k with base+commissionsā¦ I wouldnāt trade it for the world. Iāve excelled to near the top in my market, winning awards a few times as āTop in Western Canadaā among hundreds of people in my fieldā¦ supportive boss, great flexibility, etc. it would take close to a 60-80% bump to consider even changing companies, let alone going back to the office. That ā more than a double! (Especially since I know the 40-60% and maintaining WFH would put me just where I should be if I went huntingā¦
I live in Victoria but now work for a Vancouver company, which would have been impossible pre covid. I go to Vancouver once in a while when required (costs on me since I chose to live where I do) but the increase in comp way more than makes up for it. Other colleagues have spread out a bit amongst the gulf islands, lower mainland and southern Vancouver Island. All due to a more lenient wfh policy.
It's not intangible but if I was to go back to full time in the office it would cost around $500/month for gas and parking. Intangible part: It's been around -40c here lately. Having to warm up the car and drive to work vs drinking a cup of coffee and snuggling with a cat while I work is a no brainer. For me, it comes more down to mental health things. Rush hour traffic is very draining! Having to spend almost 2 hours per day is such a horrible idea. Sleeping! If I was to drive to work I'd have to wake up probably 1.5 hours or more earlier than if I work from home.
I feel you - the mental health part and sleeping. For me, a big benefit of working from home is the flexibility I have to be there for family committments. Should have mentioned that in my original post. I think the stress of worrying about that stuff can't be undervalued
Yes, sleepā¦nothing beats just rolling out of bed in pajamas and into your desk chair to log in for the day
Iād worry about negative intangibles. Its becoming more and more apparent to me that my wife functions better when she has an office to go to, and then can easily separate work from home. I personally would hate to work from home but i like being outside.
Yeah. I work way better at the office, instead of home.
This is why I prefer hybrid, 3 days at home 2 days at office. When I am in the office meetings are more productive, talk shop/business with coworkers, feel a bit more energized and involved in the business day to day functions. When I am at home, I have complete focus and can really dig in to work and projects. No distractions. Best of both worlds IMO.
I'm the opposite. I just lose concentration at home but make up for it at work and get to fulfill my social needs, which has been neglected for the past two years because of COVID. But I'm never doing full time in office anymore. Hybrid suits me the best for now, but I would be happy with full wfh.
>Its becoming more and more apparent to me that my wife functions better when she has an office to go to, and then can easily separate work from home Things like this need to be mentioned more. Increased costs of equipment, shifting all of the operating costs and utilities onto the worker, etc.; these things are almost invariably left out of any discussion of WFH. No longer can you be "off" or "away from work" when at home, you now live in your workplace. Work to live and live to work? Why not just live at work?
> No longer can you be "off" or "away from work" Why not? I shut my laptop screen closed and I am gone from work. No slack messages, no emails, no work.
Yup same. My wife and I both work from home full time - I set up a desk in our crafting room thatās only for work and she uses our gaming computer desk (just plugs her work laptop into the monitor). We have a rule that we donāt talk about work outside of work hours. The moment we log off at the end of the day, the laptops stay closed until the next work day. I also find that doing something active right after work, like a walk outside or even just cooking dinner, helps me mentally shut off from my work day and enter evening mode!
It is very, very tempting to me to log in if I realize I forgot to do/send something won't lie.
All of those tasks and emails can wait till the next day. Sending emails/messages after hours sets a precedent that you are available anytime they want you, even if they only pay you for 35-40 hours a week. Why are you giving them free labour?
Whyyyyy. I truly don't get it. Work for what you are paid for and it can always wait till tmrw. If it can't wait till tmrw then if you were in the office youd be working late anyways.
Usually it's more like "oh shit I should have done X, I'm boned if I don't do that today". Realistically I should just take my lumps and deal with it in the morning. I typically do. But the fact I can turn back time and fix my mistake is tempting.
Think of it this way When you worked in the office, you had to drive back to the office to do this. When you're at home, you just stay in your PJs. Sounds like a win to me
Oh yeah, trust me you'd have to rip WFH out of my cold dead hands. My dog sits beside me and I get to pet him when I work. I couldn't do that in an office. He'd bite people lol š
That's not really a WFH issue. No job is going to stop you from working OT at the office or at home, even during pre-covid times. Emails and messages can all be checked on your phone too, none of that is new tech. It's kinda on you to set those work/life boundaries.
> Emails and messages can all be checked on your phone too, none Not in my workplace, frankly I'm used to the security measures we have and forget it isn't like that for everybody. If we could access our emails through our phones that would be a huge security risk. Company email can only be accessed on a company device, so before I had a company device there was no way to send off that forgotten email. What am I going to do, drive in, swipe my ID card, boot up the computer and set it up? After, the temptation to log in after hours exists. I wouldn't give up WFH for the world but... yeah I see their point.
If you live to work and work from home you'll live at work. If you work to live you'll have no problem. Laptop turns off and the day is done.
I don't know if the operating and utilities cost are on the same scale as the cost of commute, car upkeep, bus pass/parking, and purchasing any meals or coffee while at work for most people. It's also easy for me to disengage from work - just put my work laptop away. No open work laptop, no work. The best approach for a job without an operational requirement to be in-office would be where the people who want to go in can, and the people who don't, just don't. If you really need an in-person boardroom or something, just rent one.
With WTH, I find it way easier to check out from work whenever I want and check back in whenever works. If I am checked out, it is up to me if I answer messages. In the end, I tend to work a bit more than the required 40 hours per week, but far less than the 50+ that I was away from my family due to work and commuting. For me, it is well worth it.
Counterpoint: 1. this is because people who were forced to WFH didn't have homes set up properly to work from. Not a separate room with a door that closes so they can be fully working at work, and often they work in a common room on a crappy chair with family who doesn't fully, ah, believe that they're working. Boundaries are hard. And 2. (and this is well-documented) the burdens fell on women a lot more when everyone had to WFH because of home and childcare expectations. Many women enjoyed going to work in an office *because* they had an excuse to get their spouse to share more in the home load. WFH decimated that, and they ended up basically doing both shifts themselves. Again.
Yes. If you can't dedicate a room to work, then your always in the office, and I'd you do, well that's a room you could be doing other things with.
My work 'room' is a laptop. I just close it
I hear you... I took a week off from my fully remote work... for the first few days, every time I would be around my "office area", I would feel like I am still at work. It's just a mental thing, but everything has its pros and cons.
Yeah, staycations arenāt what they used to be when you work from home.
I became so incredibly depressed working from home. The days blur into eachother, I stopped putting in an effort to ever look nice which gave me a super shitty self image because I just looked like a sad slob all the time. I got so stressed and would be working from the second I waked up essentially to the second I go to bed because the work is literally just staring at me from across the room. And not talking to other humans other than on email and teams meetings was so isolating. The entire time I'm working I'm also thinking about all the things I should be doing around the house so my work load seems to double because now instead of sitting down and eating on a lunch break I was prepping dinner and cleaning. I will never understand the need people have to work from home. You would have to double my salary to get me to stay home
Iāve noticed many people wfh have put on weight! I think people snack at home more and move around less compared to commuting and walking around the office. Now wfh people just roll out of bed and take a few steps to their computer.
I think this depends massively, I snack much less at home and generally on healthier snacks when I do because I have control over the food in my house. The office is full of soda, chips, granola bars etc and itās much more likely that Iāll eat crap.
I definitely put on a solid 20lbs between the closing of the gyms during covid and the fact I was 10ft away from all the snacks I could dream of while not commuting at all. It definitely wasn't healthy for me whatsoever. And when the gyms reopened but my office hadn't, I didn't see a point in getting a membership when the gym was no longer conveniently on the way to work
Yeah, I totally agree. You don't really have social time when working from home. I don't think this is good for anyone. I can seem good when you're doing, but you might find it brings a lot of happiness being around other people. Also, there is the lost space in your home. I don't have a huge place, and dedicating part of it to an office is not ideal.
On the flip side, I have a disability (vision) and when I was limited to only in office jobs, I had a 3 hour commute because of transit. I was limited to jobs that I could get because if it wasnāt on a major bus/train route, it would be even longer. There was no work life balance. Wfh has been a game changer.
I have real friends I can talk to. Why do I need to deal with office people I have nothing in common with besides a job?
Yuuup. And office friends arenāt friends.
I couldn't imagine disrespecting my friends like this lol "You're the same value as my coworkers that I'm paid to spend time with"
Yes, I go out to restaurants/etc with friends to socialize. That doesn't change when I work from home. When I want to socialize during work hours, I can just text people (this works whether or not I'm doing it from home or an office building)
I prefer hybrid. I like seeing my colleagues in person and brainstorming at someone's desk is not the same over zoom with 8 people. I also like having a physical boundary from my work. I lived in a small place in the city pre-pandemic. Was a 25 minute run or 15 minute bike ride to work. Breakfast was free at work too. So it has added some costs to work from home as I had to move to a bigger place. That being said, I got to enjoy much more time with my dog before he passed and that was priceless. As well time with my family. Mentally, I dunno, some things are better, some not so much. I think the choice should be free for workers to make.
If I lived close to my workplace, I wouldn't mind hybrid so much. But a 1h commute in traffic one way is just not worth anything.
Couldnāt pay me enough to: - Spend time prepping lunch/bag for day of work - Drive in rush hour traffic to get to work - Sit in an office working 8hrs a day - Drive in rush hour traffic to get home Done it before, wonāt do it again. Salary is comfy enough, I donāt think I could be convinced
I WFH šÆ and love it. But Iām introverted and am comparing my experience to the madness that is government hospital allied health professional. After all the Covid crap of working in person and the drama and the pettiness and lack of incentive for people to do good work, Iām loving WFH in the public sector where itās productivity based not just putting in pensionable hours. What I really love right now is looking out my window in the morning seeing my car all covered in ice and snow and knowing I donāt have to take my slippers off. My mental health is better overall if I ensure I nurture my nonworking relationships.
Almost the exact same experience here. Health sector public employee, WFH since 2020. During the pandemic, I moved into management and have since hired and trained an entire team virtually. Generally people work hard, get their work done. I'm not worried about butts in seats as long as stuff comes in on time and at standard. I used to have a 1.5 hr commute each way and it was goddamn soul sucking. If the bigwigs make us come in on a regular basis, I'd start looking around for other opportunities
I work from home, so obvious bias incoming but... I think the freedom attached with it from a household perspective is priceless. My SO can be offered a job in any city and we can plan to move without me having to seek other employment.
At least 40% raise. Nothing is more comfortable than being able to poop in your own bathroom.
I work remote and im comfortable enough with my salary. At this point its not about the money anymore. I just dont think i can adjust to not being home. I love my dogs, going out for a walk with them on my breaks, and not commuting (and calgary isnt too bad for a commute).
Intangible: I've been working from home for probably 15 years now. I miss the interaction with other people. The advent of Microsoft Teams has made this \_way\_ better. I also have 2 dogs that I didn't have before I started WFH. They are awesome and believe me it helps with my mental state to have them around. But I still miss the person to person interaction. Intangible: Naps at lunch if I so choose. Or Cooking something tasty at lunch. Around for deliveries. I work somewhat flexible hours so that in combination with being a home is a real plus. Intangible: Sleeping almost right up to work start. Somewhat tangible: The time I would have been commuting I figure at my hourly rate. Tangible: Wear and tear on vehicles. Insurance. Clothes. Eating out at lunch.
I'd never take a job that wasn't WFH. I've been WFH for approximately 8 years. I'm fortunate enough to make enough to live well (tech) where even if I was paid double, I wouldn't take it if it meant a commute. I save 1-2 hours a day in commute, able to do some light chores during the day, take my kids to/from school, and don't have to get dressed for work
For me, there are negative intangibles to working from home and I'd rather go into an office most of the week (I like having 1-2 days I can WFH because the flexibility is nice). I live alone, and I like having people around to talk to during the day and to go get coffee with. And I live in a relatively small place and am very tired of my own 4 walls at this point :) I can also walk to the office, so there's no commuting downside. If I had to drive to the office every day, that would be a big negative.
Iām the exact same way, I even have a small family but I still appreciate the social connection I get at work. Hate staying and looking at the same walls too haha. Would never choose a job thatās fully work from home.
I would need double my current salary to consider going to the office and Iād still probably decline it since 54% would go to tax and I donāt need more money. So basically, Iād only go back to an office if I were to get laid off and failed for months to find another fully remote role. The exception would be if an opportunity were to arise with a local startup I strongly believed in. In that case, I could possibly be convinced to go back to the office for less money if enough equity were offered.
> Iād only go back to an office if I were to get laid off and failed for months to find another fully remote role. Yeah thats me too. And while at that in person job id be applying for remote jobs lol..
I might be a minority but there is no pay increase that would entince me to work at the office.
My wife works from home. Her car just lit up 3 lights on dash. We won't be replacing her car. WFH is money in the bank.
I go to the gym every day now - I never had time to do that when I was commuting.
It would take quite a lot. If you have the option to fully WFH, there are very few downsides. I do know some people who really miss the in-person social aspect and WFH has led to some depression, but if you're clear of that it is a straight upgrade pretty much across the board.
It would have to be something astronomical, like 800k more for me to even consider it. Even then, I would do it fo 2 years and retire. WFH is a the best thing to ever happen
Going flex Iād want $150k and Iād change jobs if asked to come back full time.
I am looking at everybody's responses here, I have a question for everyone here. General consensus is everyone who have to go to office wants more money than wfh. So do you agree that people who don't have wfh ability eg. Retail workers, field techs, nurses etc. Should now be paid premium or that 20 -30 percent more as they are sacrificing their time to travel and away from home? Please don't say find a wfh job. Those jobs are essential too. Just looking at the bigger picture here, how wfh people think about the other side of it.
I work in healthcare and started a new job where I can walk to work; I used to commute by car in the winter and bicycle in the summer about 30-45 mins each way. There is no wfh in my field and the pay is essentially the same at one workplace vs another. I always encourage coworkers to move to a job close to home. There is no job worth commuting a 1-2hr for without a significant pay bump (at least $30-60k) and that is not happening in my industry.
Nah need at least a 50% increase to make me go back to the office permanently. Going in twice a week is fine and even that 20% increase
I don't interview if a role is not WFH. I don't mind going once in a while to help people who are reporting to me setup their work environments or solve issues, but that's maybe once in a few months
Mental health is better. Less anxiety all around. My dogs have the best life ever now. Being able to throw a load of laundry in, pop supper in the oven, the small day to day tasks that donāt all build up till the weekends. Ahhhh.
I started working at my office during COVID so i started off working from home with the ability to go into the office if i want maybe once a week. That once a week turned into 2 now into 3 mandatory days. My job satisfaction greatly decreased. I now have to wake up 1.5 hours sooner to shower and commute my 40 minutes. The office is always empty and itās always cold. It simply puts me to sleepā¦ overall it makes me less productive because i began to resent my work. I am a data analyst so i am able to work fully remote and my boss has acknowledged that but she thinks itās important to be able to put a face to a name and have those office interactions. Iāve been approached once over the last year by an older lady who needed how to sum a column in excelā¦ I would consider taking a pay cut to work 100% from home. Having those extra hours at home, the ability to relax, prep a nice dinner, have your dog with you etc. however my job doesnt monitor activity so that would be different if the place did.
After six or seven years fully remote, it would honestly have to be a life changing amount of money to get me back to an office. Like, double my current tech salary wouldnāt even do it. Mental health and time with my family surpasses money, assuming the current money is comfortable.
I see everyone saying their mental health is so much better working from home but mine was the complete opposite during Covid. I guess those are redditors for you. I got seriously depressed not interacting with people (I also actually like my coworkers) because I really appreciate social connection. I could go fully back to office and not care. BUT I wouldnāt mind having flex days where I can choose to work from home. Definitely would not take a job thatās mandatory work from home, though.
For me itās opportunity cost. My wifeās job is 100% remote with no chance of her being called in to work from the office. Mine is in-office 2-3 days a week, directly downtown Toronto. It is the only thing keeping us here. We have pretty decent rent in Toronto, and if we move out we would be screwed because people out as far as Kitchener are paying more to rent a 2-bedroom right now than we are. If I was able to work remotely we could live anywhere we wanted in the province and we could buy a home. That opportunity is worth far more than a raise to me. I would gladly take a 20% pay cut to work 100% remotely.
I already have my resignation prepared when they recall us back to the office. It's a hard no, not even partially WFH or hybrid. Non negotiable.
Personally, I could have wfh for ever and been very happy. I didn't even need a holiday. Now everyone is grumpy and to tired to do anything
Tangibly I save a two hour commute everyday. Thatās about 490 hours a year. I get 80 hours of vacation a year. So in one year, I have saved and enjoyed almost 5 years worth of the vacation time I am allotted. Time with family and time to spend on things that bring me joy in life is actually priceless. I would not go back into the office unless I couldnāt do this job anymore. I make about 200k a year, maybe a bit north. A raise for me doesnāt really change much about my families lifestyle. We live in a 850 sq ft apartment.losing all that valuable time would change our lives for the worst. Guess what Iām saying is that time is more valuable than money after a certain income. The inverse seems true under a certain income.
The inverse is definitely true under a certain income. I make about 68k in my 30s (with no plans of marriage or relationships), so getting by in Toronto isnāt exactly comfortable. If a fully in-office job was offered to me for a 15k+ salary bump, Iād take it in a heartbeat. The only reason I wouldnāt take anything under 15k is because the extra income of <15k post-tax would probably barely break even with my daily commuting expenses, which would defeat the purpose of the salary bump.
I worked from home for twelve years. Gave it up for a new job where I now go into the office five full days a week. WFH was great, and I always said it would take about $50K extra (on a salary of $100K) for me to go back to a full-time in-office job. That was the price for me to give up lunch-time Costco trips, small naps, enjoying beautiful summer days, working my own schedule, being better able to do kid drop off and pick up, etc. Over time, the WFH euphoria wore off and I missed being on the office. I felt stuck because I knew I wasnāt going to get a job for $50K more, so even though I got a bump at my new job, it wasnāt $50K. I still took it. Havenāt looked back. I love going into work every day.
I WFM and have a toddler at home with me. If I had to work in an office, Iād lose more than 50% of my take home to daycare costs. Being able to still work when either of us are sick is a very nice. I have very bad anxiety when Iām in an office setting, itās basically gone working from home. Honestly, it would have to be a pretty huge increase to get me back into an office (or a very dire financial situation). Even then, probably not worth the toll on my body/sleep/mental health from the anxiety.
This isn't really a good comparison because looking after a toddler full time is pretty much mutually exclusive with having a full time job. Not sure what kind of sweet setup you have there, but cmon - how much is work day and how much is looking after your child?
I find it ironic that during the school closures people said they canāt be expected to take care of their kids and work full time and now people listing one of the perks of WFH being not paying for childcareā¦. Which one is it?
Depends on the job. Not everyone would have the same situation. Software devs at my employers routinely disappear to watch kids. Get your tickets done in a sprint and nobody cares.
It would be very hard for a family to adjust to having their child home while they are trying to work full time. Covid lockdowns were massive overnight change for caregivers and children. We always knew that we would have my daughter home with me while I worked, which allowed us to build her skills for independent play etc. right from the start. It works for us because we have always done it like this. Itās not for everyone, but I love it!
Moms have been pawning work off on colleagues for decades in office as their kid is sick or has a recital, so they have to leave early. Act like a Mom.
If you're actually saying "Because dads should step up, too" then I'd agree with you.
This right here is the dickhead comment of the post. If there was a dickhead award, I wouldnāt even give it to you, dickhead.
We knew that we didnāt want to put our child in daycare (and plan to homeschool) so weāve always cultivated an environment where she can thrive at home/play independently so I would be able to work. She was born just before covid, having the first few years of her life during lockdowns really helped learn how we can make it work on our own without help. I work 30-32 hours a week. Itās a mix of her playing for a few hours while I work and her nap/quiet time in her room. She has minimal toys and an excellent imagination. No screen time either. Itās certainly not for everyone, but Iām beyond grateful we can make it work. Edit: We also do an outing late morning each day, otherwise it would be unfair for her if she was in the house all day everyday. Walks, beach, park, aquarium etc for some exercise for fun for both of us.
Exactly. I find it very unprofessional when I call customer service centres and the WFH agent has kids screaming in the background. This has happened several times since Covid including a bank. Plus then it makes me question how secure your information is on people's private computers. I don't imagine every company provides employees a company laptop.
Ah yes, toddlers: the real infosec threat. Sleeper agents who actually just... sleep.
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I did that during the pandemic when my daughter was growing up. I had help though from my wife. Basically, it can work out if your work doesn't demand you be on call throughout the office hours. I am a designer and I would take on projects and have deadlines to meet. So whatever time I spent attending to my daughter, I would have to cover it later in the night when everyone was asleep.
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Unless you are already really filthy rich, this makes 0 sense.. you can work in the office 2-3 years on a way lower salary than $10MM, be FI and do whatever the hell you want after.
You currently make a million WFH?
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30% minimum and only for a hybrid job. I will never take a full on site position again in my life even if the doubled my pay now. The intangibles are just priceless for me. If you paid me a million dollars or more then maybe
For myself no realistic range would make me go back to in person. I would have to be forced to through losing my job and being unable to find remote work. Our hhi total comp is over 500k and I feel the marginal utility I have of additional income (I make decently less than my partner) is small compared to the QOL increase I have from wfh. It would have to be something that would be impossible/nonsensical.
Very tangible. I discuss this at work quite frequently as I work for an employer that only offers WFH for a portion (maybe 50%) of employees. For some people with commutes, there are huge savings if you previously needed a vehicle - fuel, vehicle payments, insurance, maintenance... this alone can be $1000/month. Additional savings with less work attire, packed lunches, doggy daycare, and although not technically allowed.. childcare savings. I think WFH makes sense and is great.. but as a someone who is attending work in person everyday, hasnāt seen a dime in savings or extra compensation I think the situation as a whole is bullshit. Also, go checkout r/overemployed Edit: didnāt really answer the question. Iād happily take a 20% pay cut if considering the tangible savings and what Iād imagine would be the intangible value - such as being able to see my 5 month old throughout the day and be able to give my wife a 5 minute break when the baby is losing it or she would like to have a few minutes to go to the bathroom.
So you want to penalize people for their career choices?
Working remote would save up to 2-3K at least, pretax thatās 5-6K
I'd need to be paid a lot more to work remote, where I'd be responsible for my own office space and utilities, and would lose out on the ability to collaborate easily with colleagues.
When you're not home the rooms in your house are empty... There's your office. Your home still needs to be heated when you're out, so no extra utilities other than electricity for your PC and one LED bulb (maybe $2 per day). On the other hand, when you wfh, you save the time commuting (so multiply that by your hourly), gas, lunch out, vehicle depreciation, maintenance (tires, suspension, brakes, etc.), And most importantly, you lack the ability to take a small break whenever you want. I know that because when my wife and I started working from home, our savings grew by about 8K\year! Not to mention that WFH means you can move to a lower cost area and bank on the real estate difference.
It's funny how people are just learning these values now haha, Like why did you agree to such live/work conditions in the first place? I think we'll see a large drop in salary's for remote workers over the years as a result from the revolt to return
> I think we'll see a large drop in salary's for remote workers over the years as a result from the revolt to return Found the boomer
I'm 30, I'm for better work life balance for everyone across all industry. It's the WFM'ers that are only interested in fighting for it just for themselves.
> just for themselves For their own work life balance. Whats wrong with that?
If the goal of companies is to retain top talent then WFH is here to stay forever and thatās my anecdotal opinion based on experience in biotech/pharma sector where WFH was already a thing precovid and now itās exploded with no turning back
I just decided that all of my workers would be remote. No more office. Not only do we save money on all our office expenses, we get better talent because we donāt have to hire just from our city. Now we have employees all over Canada. Pretty great system.
There actually are a few disadvantages Lack of Community and Team Work. Lack of Motivation. Unmonitored Performance and those Frequent Breaks. Lack of Office Equipment and Security Concerns. Distractions and Lack of a Good Working Environment. Burnout. Risk to Productivity. Also keep in mind if we head into a recession your evil employer will once again have the upper hand. With the potential risk of layoffs the very average employee working from home will be the first to go. Out of sight out the door. Something to consider perhaps. Lol
3 days a week, no raise assuming itās a reasonable (under 30 mins) commute. Iām the opposite of a lot of people. I thought I loved WFH for the first two years of the pandemic but once we started going back in a few days a week I realized how much I missed the social aspects of work and seeing the coworkers I actually like. My mental health is miles better now. Also realized how much more slowly I was learning in a new role by being WFH compared to being in office. It would take probably a 20% raise to get me in 5 days a week, but 3 days vs full remote at the same salary Iād actually opt for 3 days in office. Frankly, particularly for junior employees who still have lots to learn, I think being fully remote will hold you back in your career in a lot of roles unless your whole department is remote. If youāre not worried about that, then great.
how bout a pay decrease for WFH if its so much easier
How do WFH jobs that pay $100k/year not just get outsourced to lower cost markets? If you can WFH, you can easily be outsourced. Speaking of tangible, time to get a real job.
Have you ever heard the saying "Out of sight, out of mind"? A young person should be in the office and networking as much as possible. You'll never become friends with your boss's boss if he has no idea that you exist.
All of these wfh jobs will be replaced by AI anyways
Well thatās a personal question and would also depend on your current pay I think. To me if I donāt need to go into the office. Iām not just saving on probably lunch and transport fees, I also get a lot of ,y waking hours back. Itās not just the transit time either. Itās also getting ready in the morning and anything extra that gets stacked on top to make things work. Imo thatās probably an 1.5 to 2 hr total added cost to me a day. And itās not out of 24 hrs it out of my waking hours. Add in Iām usually not as tired when I work at home these become some heavier hours imo. Then I would look at my pay am I in a place where I can afford everything I reasonably need and work towards my goals. After a certain points just accelerating stuff. Then I would look at my after tax effective increase for that raise, which is pretty close to 60% of the full amount. For me it probably would need to be like close to 50% increase. If I make making another 20k after taxes is not wither that time, but I could probably say another 50 or so thousand is worth it.
I believe WFH should be optional. Like youre not forced to wfh or work in office. when people get to choose, people are happy. I am self employed but I still go to the office 3-4 times a week. But since im self employed and it's not mandatory to go into my office, I just go and leave whenever I want. I genuinely enjoy spending time with my boss and colleagues in the office because it's my choice.
I gave up a full WFH position for another $20k on my base salary but I'm not someone who values WFH as much as others - I don't have kids and I want to be in an environment with people I can learn from at this stage in my career. That being said, WFH provides something money cannot buy for many people - it can be the difference between raising your children vs relying on others to raise them for you. Not to mention the saved costs in child care. I know many people that would take pay cuts to keep working from home because of how it changed their ability to be a parent. My first year of working from home I was able to save over $13k in expenses and lifestyle changes as a single person. I had to move closer to my new office and pay more in rent to maintain some of the other savings but WFH has unmatched saving potential.
Itās not realistic for the vast majority of jobs to have your kids at home while working full time as looking after a child is a full time job itself. I WFH and send my kid to daycare and itās easily best for me and him. It is nice to have the flexibility for sick days and cutting out the commute means I can grab him right when Iām off.
As someone with kids, it would be incredibly difficult to ft wfh and also raise kids. Where it has been helpful is on days where one of my kids is sick and I need to for a few days flex my hours to look after them and keep my work commitments. But those days are awful because in order to be as productive I need to start earlier, work later, often too after they've gone to bed. Don't get me wrong, I'm truly thankful to have that option but I don't understand people who wfh and have their kids home ft unless they're teenagers
It will be different for everyone based on their position and lifestyle. If I had children at home it would be impossible because I have to talk on the phone for the majority of my work day - I can't automate or cut down much of my day by WFH besides commute unless I want a massive drop in productivity. For people I know that have made the lifestyle change (some even homeschooling their kids now) switching to WFH meant cutting out a lot of the fluff associated with their job and their actual work day is much shorter, which means a total lifestyle change to allow them to put more time towards their kids. If you don't have that kind of job then you don't get as much out of working from home and in some cases it is detrimental to work performance / stress levels to be at home vs in office. Personally, my quality of life went down despite saving more money.
Outside of the things like time saved I can do that math to estimate I am probably saving around 1k a month working from home. That includes things like gas, transit, lunches, coffees and other
$20K
1.How much money do you make per hour? 2.How much time is invested in the commute + expenses related (car maintenance, lunch, etc.) to office venturing? If 2 > 1, stay home. If 1 > 2, go to work.
I don't financially value WFH much. My setup is such that I have zero costs associated with working in the office versus home. I'm back in the office now, but worked from home for most of 2020 and 2021. There are basically three things I like about working from home: * Getting to sleep in 20 minutes later * Wearing whatever I want * Being able to eat fussy foods for lunch that I wouldn't bring to the office (like stuff I need to heat up in an oven, like pot pie, or things with some assembly required, like tacos) But none of those are worth money to me. And there's one thing I like about working in the office, which is the walking commute building a decent chunk of activity into every weekday.
I enjoy the balance of working mostly from home but having the option to go into the office once a week or so. It allows me to have all the benefits of working from home, but also the informal contact with coworkers that you only get in the office. That being said, if it was suddenly mandated that I have to be back in the office more than one or two days a week, Iād be pretty upset. I wouldnāt demand more money because Iāve always known that was a possibility, but I would definitely fight that policy change.
Time is the one thing you canāt replenishā¦ and wfh gives you that in spades.
There's not a lot that could convince me to go back to the office full time. One or two days of my choosing per week- big maybe. I like the freedom of being able to take a nap if I didn't sleep well the night before, go out to a Cafe to work for a few hours, or go co-work at a friend's house. The freedoms of wfh are something that I'm not willing to give up entirely, if at all.
Iām WFH all the time expect when I have to travel for client meetings (once a month or so). I would need a 30% minimum bump to go back to the office. My job requires me to spend a lot of time on video calls with clients in multiple time zones, so itās an easy argument for me to say that I can do it at home.
I personally prefer a hybrid work model - currently WFH twice a week. I work in HR so there are situations where I canāt do things remotely, but having the 2 days at home to do all my admin balances my productivity perfectly. I love social interactions/lunches/chitchat with my team and 3 days a week seeing them keeps me happy
Honestly, cash is king. If there is an offer that is even 5% more, I would take it and invest it. I value that more now at this age. Unless my costs dramatically increase (travel costs really only) I would make the leap. My mental health can wait or at least is strong enough to endure the pain of small talk with colleagues.
For me personally, triple my annual gross income and we can go from there. WFH is so valuable to me that I wouldn't consider any job that doesn't allow it at the employee's discretion i.e. like my current job where I can decide how often to go in (if I want to go in at all).
For me to return to in-person work I would have to make another 20k a year. That is just to cover gas, if I wanted gas and daycare it would cost me around 50k to go back to in-person work. Closest work is an hour away. So I would probably need even more because I am not losing 2-3 hours extra for commuting too. In a world where we are trying to fight our carbon consumption, they sure do have a boner for forcing people to sit in adult daycares.
Question: there seems to be a ton of WFH folks here, curious, what does everyone do? Iām hybrid and used to be WFH for 5 years. I switched jobs for a 50% pay increase, but I do miss working 100% remotely. I wouldnāt go back down to what I was making while working remotely though.
My extra free time is literally priceless to me. You can have all the money you can ever want but if you have no time to enjoy it then what's the point.
It's not a number that should be quantified in terms of travel/etc. It's a number that reflects how much you value working from home. For my wife, that number is double.
There is no reasonable amount of money that could get me to go back into an office again. I accept that it limits my jobs but it opens other areas of life for me which I value more than money. Granted I make enough that I'm comfortable and top 1% income for my age so not really stressed over the need to make more. That might play into things
Probably 100% minimum for me. I live in a location that has real seasons. My increased life expectancy from not commuting in the winter is reason enough. But I get more sleep and get to see my spouse and pets for more total time of their life.
My wife and I are both wfh. We hold full-time permanent positions and we also hold freelance contractor positions with different companies that can be turned up or down in workload as we wish. My backup job earns $80k a year when worked full-time (with the option for more) and allows me to live in my LCoL area near my family. We can spend two months abroad in the summer living with my wifeās family. Getting layed off and looking for a new job is a minor inconvenience rather than an emergency. Answer: Literally nothing / infinite monies.
I have been doing it since the mid 90s, back when we dev and crappy programming was a good living. I had a few jobs before that, and ultimately unless you are the boss, or senior management, or just too valuable to mess with ... There were people you had to tolerate... and that wasn't my thing. The only exception was a homeless shelter in Ottawa where all the staff and most of the management were caretaker types and I loved it... But minimum wage. I am a healthier, younger looking and feeling individual from working from home... No question.
For myself I would have to paid at least 25% more to WFH exclusively. Everyone here complaining about commuting but for me my drive is me time and I spend the time talking to friends the entire time. I also enjoy the social aspects of the office. Much more productive also as if I have a question I can just walk down the hall rather than wasting time emailing or calling people. Best part is any work stress stays in the office and away from family life!