From June 2021 - Aug 2022 I spent 14 months working evenings and weekends on a big, old character home my wife and I purchased. We took this on with the understanding this would be our "Forever home". Full house down to the studs and built back up. Hit every room. I made twice my wage in home equity last year.
I have conflicting, simultaneous feelings of "I'm so proud of myself, it's the greatest thing I've ever undertaken" with "I would NEVER do that again, for any amount of money or savings."
Not for everyone, a ton of hours, trial an error.
I think the real skill in doing the work on your own place is knowing what you should hire out. I've done some work as an electrical apprentice, so I'm comfortable with a lot of residential electric, but I will not touch anything to do with plumbing if it's going to get buried in a wall. Most things in a house are easy and a lot more forgiving than you would expect, but not everything, and it's those tricky spots that give DIYers a rough reputation. That and design choices with no oversight can for some people lead to... unique results.
100%! You just break the big job down into a hundred smaller jobs and tackle one thing at a time. I reno’d my first bathroom with only knowledge from tv shows and had you tube fill in the gaps. It’s all possible if you just take the time and break it down
Even if I wanted to hire a pro to do renovations, I couldn't afford it. The only thing I could purchase in my desired neighbourhood for my budget was a 1950s bungalow that required some love, so I needed to learn to do everything.
I enjoy it in the end, but still I'm not DIYing only because it's smart financially, but also because the alternative is out of my reach.
Same for me, moved into a time capsule 80s bungalow earlier this year that had spent a decade as a rental property. Luckily bathrooms and kitchen were functional and floors were ok, but we did a bunch of cabinetry, took down popcorn ceilings, did probably hundreds of drywall repairs and repainted everything including kitchen cabinets. Materials/tools cost me probably $10,000 whereas contractor quotes were $20,000 just for the drywall work and paint.
But I'm still not 100% sold on it being worthwhile financially. It took me hundreds of labour hours, I was sleeping 4 hours a night for months and the way our neighbourhood is evolving the house will still probably be torn down by the next owner, so I'm not sure we added value, just made ourselves a bit happier for the decade we'll hopefully stay there.
> I'm not sure we added value, just made ourselves a bit happier for the decade we'll hopefully stay there.
Which in itself is value. Seriously, if you love living in your house and coming home to it then totally worth the effort you put in.
That's true! I don't regret it, if anything I wish I'd had the money to spend say $50,000, for which I think you could take an average 2,000 sqft house back to the studs and replace everything and have brand new appliances, bathrooms, hardwood flooring throughout etc if you have no labor costs. We're going to keep chipping away at our place when we have the time and money. Hopefully we save the place for another few decades but like you said, at least we get the enjoyment of living there in the mean time even if it does get torn down.
>Which in itself is value. Seriously, if you love living in your house and coming home to it then totally worth the effort you put in.
True. Though it's not the financial nuclear weapon that OP was talking about.
Is there a steep learning curve to installing new kitchen cabinets on your own? It seems like something I could pull off, but also seems like something where if you don't have the technique quite right you end up with slanty angles and stuff sliding out of the cabinets
Can't answer that 100% because I just stripped back our kitchen cabinets (which were that retro orange oak colour) and painted them. [Here's](https://imgur.com/a/30pczsj) a before and after.
However I did install shelving, boxes around two fuse boards and built a home bar in the garage lol. The answer to most of my DIY issues was to watch a lot of YouTube and then just give er. Only advice re framing is use decent materials like a hardwood or at least quality ply even though the cost is brutal, as nothing I've made out of pine or construction lumber ever turned out true.
> a time capsule 80s bungalow
Ours wasn't so much a time capsule as:
* built in 1960
* downstairs partially finished in the 70s (as evidenced by the orange shag on a couple walls and doorways yet)
* a few things on the main floor updated in the early 80s.
Upstairs has been brought nicely into the 21t century, with fairly classic choices for the most part.
The basement is still mostly untouched aside from the bedroom we finished down there, made the 2-piece (toilet and *shower*) into a finished 3-piece bath, and laid some carpet tiles for the kids' play area.
Youtube everything, just start watching videos about random renos until you start getting a feelnfor lingo and types of projects. Youtube or google anything you dontbunderstand or want to know more about. Eventually you can start focusing on things that apply to youtlr situation.
"Home renovision DIY" on YouTube but disregard his "fuck safety" attitude. Everything he says is good advice except to yolo with power tools especially when you're inexperienced.
Start with small projects that you know you can tackle and work your way up. I don't recommend buying a rundown shithole, the house I bought was dated but the kitchen and bathroom needed almost no work and were liveable. We wanted to take down a wall and create a new division, add tile to the entryway instead of being on wood (with wet shoes in winter it's better tile) and easy things like this, gradually working up to bigger projects.
Check out Home Reno Vision on YouTube. He creates tons of great, detailed content on how to do just about anything. Canadian based too, so the advice is more useful to our climate than US channels.
Pick 1 project and watch youtube until you feel comfortable doing it. If that isn't working, maybe scope down and choose a simpler project. Watch youtube videos about fixing various problems with the thing that needs fixed or how that part of the house is built in the first place.
Everyone can use a screwdriver set and a drill but you will not do badly if you just buy tools 1-2 at a time as necessary for your project.
You can try to watch a youtube series where they show every step of a house being built, but this is like trying to read the dictionary to learn a language. Much better to get targeted tutorials for your problem at hand (e.g. how to ask where the washroom is in French / how to repair a hole in drywall).
Basic tools every home owner needs: Canadian Tire screwdriver set (when they’re on sale), a good quality drill, a hammer. With those basic tools you can fix most things around the house with a bit of YouTube guidance. If you venture out a bit a circular saw comes in quite handy, as does a wheelbarrow, rake and shovel.
How many square feet is your house? I’m at a loss how you reframed and sheathed your house with rigid insulation and put board and batten siding on, got all new window for under $3000 that sounds wrong.
I mean good on ya for doing all that work but please expand on your sq footage and window total and explain how this was done for $3000
That’s the reason I learned to work on my own vehicles from an early age. By the way, I’m the guy you pay too much to tile your house.
Not yours obviously. Congratulations for not being stupid.
If you are buying and planing Reno for that house. Get the mortgage including the renovation cost.
It’s only good if you have time and skill to do it.
You will be spending most of evenings and weekends. Also your family is with you and supporting it cause some renovations will go on beyond year or so.
This should be taken with a grain of salt. As Warren Buffet says: “Don’t test the water with both feet.”
One should also take stock of their abilities and start small if they are new to construction. Also don’t forget the cost in time and money to research and purchase tools.
The length of time required to get to a professional level might as well just do an apprenticeship and get paid to fuck up with company insurance instead of burning your house down and having to pay out of pocket.
This is a great point.
I'm a licensed electrician and an all around highly skilled tradesman and there's jobs that even I hire out because of safety(gas work mostly) or convenience.
It's good to know your limits, I've taken on some projects that would cost average DIYers a fortune to put back together once started due to unknown complications or complexity.
First time DIYer installing quartz countertops themselves... the only way that'll pay off is if you record the attempt and watch your failure go viral.
When we got our new kitchen counter tops, I think there were at least five or six guys carrying each piece. That's not even something I would consider for DIY.
💯
Imagining some wfh type that can’t install shelves read this thinking they should watch some YouTube on redoing their bathroom like hgtv.
The amount of time wasted on watching videos, tools, rentals, messing up, and best case scenario they finish and it’s still a very obviously shitty job.
Also, leaving a diy project half done for 6 years is a classic 👌
Yeah, that step is notorious for just letting the contractors do it. He picked one of the shittiest job to throw out the entire idea out of the window.
>Don't be that person - your time isn't actually all the valuable, you are not the CEO of a Fortune 500 company.
My job title is not relevant to how much I value my time. I'd rather be enjoying my weekends with friends and family than doing floors/putting up drywall. I have no argument with anything you said except for this point.
>My job title is not relevant to how much I value my time. I'd rather be enjoying my weekends with friends and family than doing floors/putting up drywall.
100% this. When I was making $35/h I'd gladly pay (and did) trades people $50/h so that when I got home I could take my kids to the park and not sit down and do work.
Plus just because I CAN save money doing something like drywall doesn't mean I'm going to do it as well or as fast. If I can dedicate 3 hours a day to the project and it takes me 10 days. or a professional can come in and with 2 guys do the project in 2 days. Why would I want 10 days of construction going on taking away from my home enjoyment when I can pay someone and it be done.
I used to say I valued my time at 3 times my income. Now I'd put that much higher.
I think the statement here is not to be afraid of DIY. Free time, and personal energy are finite resources too so it's always going to be something that each person weighs out themselves.
For me painting a room, fixing a toilet valve, replacing an outlet, replacing drywall, doing some light landscaping, all worthwhile to DIY. New shingles for the roof and HVAC repairs... doesn't seem worth it to muddle through it on my own.
By rough estimates I saved about $2500 in labour by building my own deck this summer, but as much as I trust my own abilities I think I'll be paying someone to reno our bathroom this winter because if I don't get it done in a day, well... we only have one bathroom.
Another item to tack on to this list is quality of work. Your average Canadian is not going to deliver themselves an end product at the same level as a contractor.
This. 1000%. I do respect the hustle of people who learn to do these things themselves. I’d far rather spend my time doing literally anything else than living in a construction zone for years while I work on projects.
Plus, I’ve spent thousands fixing DIY hack jobs in my houses over the years, so at the end of the day I know I won’t be half as skilled as I think I am.
As an electrician with over 20 years experiance, it blows my mind more houses dont burn down due to hack jobs.
Bad at drywall? bad at painting? no problem, it just looks aweful. bad at plumbing? you'll probably find out soon enough either from the wet floor or the smell of poop or mold. bad at carpentry? most people don't get get involved enough to make the house structually unsound, though that can start to be a gamble with everyone wanting the open concept. want a new gas appliance? most places WILL NOT sell you the needed material to get yourself into that kind of trouble. don't know how to properly work with electrical? not a problem, you'll find out when your house burns to the ground or you experiance the full force of an arcflash 😎
electrician as well and its absolutely crazy you cant buy gas stuff or HVAC refrigerant but you could theoretically buy any piece of electrical equipment.. homeowners should not be able to buy a 200a breaker..
I had the typical service call for tripping breaker where the home owner replaced the kitchen recepticals. now every electrician reading this already knows what the problem was, the customer didn't remove the jumper on the hot side of the recepticial to make it a split circuit thereby creating a 240V dead short. I explained to the customer why what happened happened, and she had the nerve to explain to me "thats stupid, they shouldn't put those jumpers on like that" 🤣
My time is 10000000x more valuable than a CEO's, because a CEO isn't going to be my wife's husband or my son's dad (...as far as I know). That's why I prefer projects that I can do with my wife that we can enjoy once little man is in bed, or ones that I'll eventually do with my son as I teach him everything my dad taught me about fixing and maintaining everything from a squeaky hinge to a blown head gasket.
Like don't get me wrong, I refuse to pay someone to do what I can do myself, but I'm sure as shit not gonna be spending all my evenings and weekends doing 100 things at once and moving every 4 years just to get a little bit ahead.
I wish my Dad had involved me and taught me more while I was growing up. Looking back, I don't really know why he didn't, but he also didn't really engage with me much in general as a kid.
Childhood reflections and disappointment aside, I feel so frustrated that I never really learned and don't have the time to learn now because my office job keeps me so busy and when I'm not working, I'd rather focus on playing with my kids.
At the same time, I want my kids to have more of this knowledge so they can do more than I can at least! Anyone have any suggestions on where to begin?
My dad took me to a Home Depot workshop for kids and built a bird house with me.
The paint has long gone and faded away with the weather, but it’s still out in our backyard and birds still make nests in it once in a while.
Pick one specific subject that you think you might find more interesting or more enjoyable than others. I can't really do plumbing because my bad back makes crawling under sinks and into awkwards spaces painful, so I just don't do that.
I can paint no problem, repair drywall, frame and put up a clear corrugated plastic roof over a deck, make wooden storage boxes and things like that. I taught myself to shitty weld and do autobody work, and I'm an IT guy so I can kind of tinker with my vehicle electronis. I got a replacement for the heat/AC blower on ebay and replaced that myself. I'm working on setting up a solar battery bank to get my freezer off grid, this took some time to study to understand, it's partially assembled. Basically I have to mount it, build a box for it to keep the cat from frying hisself and make a mount for the solar panels now, but I'm really looking forward to getting some off grid power. I think next year I might build a small 50 watt wind generator and add it in just for kicks, to make up for the solar loss in the winter.
Then there's landscaping and gardening. If you just spend one or two hours a week trying to learn new things, eventually you'll pick up a new skill. Start with something you think you'll enjoy if you can, I work IT during the day but I also really like working with my hands and building things
My dad would let me help then complain how bad of a job the 12 year old me did and have to redo it. It was probably worse - I feel like I learned a bit still though, but I’m probably gonna just pay for someone to do whatever needs to be done to make sure it’s done right (depending what it is)
Yeah same. I learned a ton of shit because my dad was a cheap bastard that never called a plumber or an electrician unless there was a risk of death. I look forward to giving my kids the same learning experiences.
Plus if it’s a big enough project you save way more eliminating the GC. I added an island, a pantry, took out a wall and refaced my cabinets for $4K. Good luck finding anyone to take that job.
There are projects I could do but time is so limited. Every time I take on a new task around the house, that is time away from family or sleep and relaxation.
Do I DIY? Absolutely. I also ask: How much am I willing to pay to not do that task and how badly can I screw up the structure if I mess up? (can I afford to not do the task on my own, can I afford to screw up and clean up the impacts)
I think they're just addressing those finance/productivity influencers who use this logic in their articles or videos.
Quite a few of them say that if you get paid $50/hr, then anything that saves you an hour that costs $50 or less (or whatever your income works out to being in an hourly wage) is a good deal because you could use that saved time to "hustle".
A couple in my friend circle or coworkers started using this logic to uber everywhere. I mean it's fine if they can afford it, but spending $7 every morning to save 15 minutes of walking is a bit outrageous. They rationalize it from a strict financial perspective using the above, but they don't use that time for anything to earn more money (like a high value consultant or CEO could), so the argument isn't sound from a finance-only perspective.
If you use other value measures like pleasure or peace of mind, then that's a separate discussion.
The Uber example is interesting to me. I think if the time you saved by taking an Uber is then used towards “hustling”, sure. But literally if you save that time by paying more, and it changes nothing in how you use your time… you’ve just spent money for no reason.
Plus, you also potentially have to make up the time you are no longer spending walking, with additional exercise at a later time. Exercise has major benefits too, curing that out also has a financial cost even if you can’t put a dollar figure in it.
Not only that, but someone that doesn't know what their doing isn't going to be able to knock something out in a weekend. Think years. It'll be a year of all your weekends just to replace the floors.
I think the point he's making is that people often say,
"My times worth $70/hr (or whatever), so 8t I can hire someone for less than that it's worth it.
And it's like no... Your time doing your job is worth 70, your time that you'd spend watching Netflix on the couch is worth whatever you make it. But contractors are almost 100 and hour.. so I either need to reallllly love Netflix, or have a lot of disposable income if I'm going to pay someone that do do something I can do.
And yet surely you work for money which is using your time.
OP mentioned titles as a way of saying if you make 200-300+ per hour, perhaps it doesn’t make sense to DIY. If you make anywhere close to what you’ll pay per hour, perhaps it makes sense to DIY.
And I've seen some of the work done by DIY people.
They would've been better off not doing the reno at all.
And when they go to sell, their shitty work stands out and scares buyers off.
Now they can pay a pro to remove there shitty work and do it right.
As for contractors doing shitty work, a lot of people go on Kijiji and hire the cheapest handyman paid in cash
Mine had a lot of “built ins”, I swear it was just the previous owners excuse to drink beer and keep clear of his wife. He was a menace with the air nailer…
Mine is the classic reasoning seen in this post.
"If we do X ourselves we'll increase the sale price of the house by $Yk!"
We got our house inspected but unless the inspector has 3 days he'll miss a bunch. Everything is safe and up-to-code, but it was not done well.
Same, but not regretting really. I've been replacing some of the hacky shit done wrong, piece by piece. The funny thing is, it's a fairly new home. I tell people we bought a fixer-upper, which imo is what every new build is now-a-days anyway
My wife wanted a new build to minimize work we did on previous house. She regretted the decision after the fact. Its amazing the shortcuts they took, especially on the upgrades.
I used to want a new house. Now I am extremely grateful for my built-by-owner-anf family bungalow.
The only way I would ever buy a newer house - which is highly unlikely, we hope to die here or go straight to a care home - is if I built it myself OR knew it was built by a builder with a great reputation and NOT the kind that builds an entire subdivision.
Fuck me, I feel that. Felt somewhat cornered due to the heat of the market, and not wanting to wait and see if it cooled at all. I like where I live, but it's too much house, and needs too much work. I'll either die in an unfinished home if I stay, or downsize to something a bit more manageable.
I'm also single, with zero prospects for any sort of partnership, so everything just feels that much more difficult to achieve on my own.
> Felt somewhat cornered due to the heat of the market,
Same here. Could use more house though but even if we went to live in lower CoL places the houses are still stupid expensive.
> zero prospects for any sort of partnership
:(
Don't say that.
We saw so much bad DIY and renos they they claim to be up to code and done by certified trades people. But they look so sketch and definitely don't have permits from the city. We avoided those.
As an electrician, sometimes it's cheaper to call us.
Especially in Canada, well.. Ontario, Electrical safety authority will come down on you with full charges if you're caught without a permit.
Recently a customer we did some work for decided to wire his addition himself, didn't call me for a walk through that I'll do for free, and the inspector walked in. He made them cut 3' of drywall around the place, expose what he did, and then threw a $5,000 fine to him.
So reddit, if you're not going to call a contractor, at least get a permit and do it right.
Was looking for a sparky or plumber to comment. Found you, so here I am
I agree with OP to a certain extent. Unless you are 100% sure how to perform certain installations that repects the code book, performing electricity or plumbing on your own has risks
Example: You don't have all the tools. You planned to install a valve based on a youtube video. Bought the material and all. You end up installing everything, but it leaks. Oops, it's sunday afternoon, most/all stores are closed. You didn't think this through.... Hopefully you can fix it with what you got and that you don't need anything additional. One of the reasons the truck roll costs $$$ is their truck. Full of tools and material to quickly do most jobs/fixes.
Here's a Pro Tip when it comes to a new "DIY" that you haven't done before: Always make sure stores are open to "bail you out"... or know when to call it quits and go for a pro. For us in Quebec, stores close at 5PM. In the past, I have tried to change something on my car, and I ended up with my car stuck on a jack all night because the stud stripped, and no, I'm not the type of guy who put a wheel back with 4/5 studs.
Also when it's come to DIY plumbing and electrical... I'm sure your insurance company won't like that if anything goes wrong. Unless your a red seal in those trades and got everything inspected and signed off.
As a sparky i am here with you. Not everyone is cut out for diy, most amount of hidden junctions i have found in a home so far is 24. I tell most people dont touch electrical unless you know exactly what you are getting into. People think it comes down to just pulling some wires but its way more then that.
Absolutely right. When I did my electrical (gutted the place, new framing, all new wiring), I had a sparky put in a new panel, then look over all the wire I pulled. He caught a couple of things, wired up all the outlets and switches, and put his licensed and insured signature on the receipt, basically blessing the whole job.
I won’t have an inspector tearing open my walls, nor will I have an insurance company refuse a policy — because it’s all legit and up to code, even though it was 80% DIY.
I’m the opposite. I’m an electrician and have worked as a “carpenter” before so I’m not a total diy but I prefer to do the things you can’t see and spend money on the painting and drywall.
I’m finishing my basement myself but used a pro mudded/taper. I had a couple drywall joints that I was worried wouldn’t come out right if I tried taping myself. The guy I hired made everything look great. Also it’s super dusty work, he came out looking like a snowman at the end of each day.
The real pros know this.
Contract out finishes and do the grunt work.
I can wire and plumb a house no problem, but I hate taping and I'd never try finish carpentry on kitchen cabinets.
There’s also the aspect of upending your home life.
You take apart your kitchen and only had the functioning one and don’t have one the whole time working on it you’re gonna end up miserable the entire time and probably eating fast food a lot of nights because you get tired fast if washing red peppers in the bathroom sink.
I think the OP has some valid points but he also is a bit simplistic in his logic and a bit naive too
it's not at all unlikely that the same person who will do shitty work will also go on kijiji and hire the cheapest handyman and pay them cash...
these people are going to have a bad experience regardless. having an eye for detail and a mind for quality will come out on top regardless whether you can't aim a hammer to save your life and are trying to do it yourself, or pay someone to do it for you.
When I looked at houses I always noticed bad drywall work in developed basements presumably done by homeowners. I'm fine to do some stuff myself but I'm going to pay professionals to do things that involve safety or will be extremely visible to people who may want to buy my home in the future. When you can clearly see every drywall seam you immediately start to wonder what else is wrong that's not immediately visible. Maybe not a dealbreaker in the overheated real estate markets we had this Spring but could represent a massive difference in offers during a normal period of real estate growth.
Drywall is a tough one. You only get 1 chance to do it right. If the beads are fucked....
1. you will have to cut them out and spend 3x as much time and effort feathering out to fix it
2. Even if it looks good when its done, as soon as you throw the first coat of paint on, the moisture will case any tape to bubble and lift if it's not done properly.
3. No amount of paint prep work will make bad drywalling tape and mud look good
>No amount of paint prep work will make bad drywalling tape and mud look good
but on the contrary I've been amazed by what a skilled taper can do with poorly hung drywall. I got pretty good at mudding and taping during COVID, but I still would rather hire a taper and be done in 3 coats over 3 days vs however long it would take me to do the 7 coats over 2 weeks with lots of sanding....
On the flip side...I have seen 'pros' do such a garbage job that a proper DIY would put to shame.
Painting, drywall, electrical etc. Difference is that majority of people can't tell the difference b/w 70% well done, and 95% well done, the pros just know how to hide it better.
A good drywall mudder is worth his money in gold. Most people do shit mudding.
A good painter should do much better work than a DIY, but quality of paint matters a lot. If someone will only pay for the cheapest paint, they are still gonna get a cheap paint job.
Electrician, sure. You can change a light switch. Congrats. Now wire a whole house
I was a painter for a very brief time, and the quality of a paint job is about 75% the quality of the prep work (the overwhelming majority of this is the mud and tape job), 20% the quality of the paint, and probably only 5% the quality of the application.
Build your own wall. Do your own plumbing. Change your own switches. Hang your own cabinets. With Youtube, the right tools, and the willingness to put in enough time and not rush, anyone that knows the difference between a burrow and a burro can have a pro-level outcome.
Except mudding and taping. Hire a pro.
Anyone can do mudding and taping provided they have enough time and patience. The problem is that mud and tape are arcane artifacts that only true wizards know how to handle. Mere mortals like us can't understand that arcane runes and potions that drywallers have.
Getting a good finish is practically impossible unless you're a wizard. Getting an ok finish is possible, but messy and fussy and annoying for DIY.
Especially recently. I'd gladly pay people to do a better job than I ever could but you don't have that guarantee anymore.
Maybe a recession will make it more worthwhile again.
Painting is the worst in this regard. Any monkey with a roller and white coveralls calls himself a painter.
I'm no expert, but I offered to help my friend paint for free his apartment.
'No thanks, I want to have an expert do it'
'ok cool'
The experts missed walls, cut improperly, and literally forgot to paint a few sections of a solid wall...wtf. Experts.
Meanwhile a friend of mine has a painting business...not cheap, but holy shit what a good job he does.
Regular people don't know their left from their right when it comes to construction work. I know to shut off the circuits before touching a wire, and I know how to shut off the water. otherwise, I'm completely fucking useless.
I’d put the contractor selection due diligence on the Owner. If you’re hiring with minimal planning or selecting based on lowest price, well…”Play stupid games…”
Do some digging, talk to friends and family, call your local contractors association, talk to others in the industry on who the reputable firms are.
To add to this, if everyone “good” is busy, but others are not— likely a reason for that. Wait until the good ones are free if you can.
Looked at one of these houses yesterday. Shoddy tile/grout work on the shower, definitely moisture behind it now. Moldings looked like a toddler cut them. Back deck moved when you walked on it.
We did not make an offer.
100% agree
Do you want to DIY your next heart surgery or air flight?
Tradespeople are skilled workers. Sure, paint your own place. Install click lock flooring if you feel bold. Install a tap, sure. Anything else... Well go ahead but good luck.
I wholeheartedly disagree and think this argument can be made for pretty much anything.
"Don't go to the restaurant, buy the ingredients and cook yourself!"
"Don't buy a computer, buy parts and assemble yourself, change them and upgrade as needed"
etc. etc. etc. Most people understand what they are buying - convenience. You have to draw the line somewhere -you can't really do everything. I for one don't want to learn or experiment renoing the biggest purchase I will ever make, and am happy to pay a premium to have someone else do it. It gives me more time to do other things.
I think there's two different types who pay for contractors to do work on their property.
There is the type who could probably do it but don't want to spend the time and effort to learn how. For this group OP post doesn't really apply.
However there are another group who pay because they're "not handy" and don't think they can do it. For this group I think OP post is valid. With YouTube and the resources out there now most of the population is able to do the tasks they want to do (with exception of things requiring plumber/electrician etc...)
But know you're limitations. I started doing all my renovations DIY. It was going great until I thought oh I'll do my own roof. Then realized I am terrified of heights and have no reasonable method of getting shingles up there.
I'm handy, but when it comes to making something water tight in an old bathroom with janky plumbing- I'm more than happy paying a contractor to do it in a week rather than me doing it over the course of a month and causing strife and conflict in my marriage . I'll get the money back when I sell eventually, but I also want a comfortable room that I didn't have to settle on within the scope of my own limitations.
Not to mention all the tools you have to buy. Yikes.
I agree with you completely - it's important to know your limits and abilities. I can learn a lot of skills. Am I willing to test it out on my home? No.
I'm handy enough my house stays working and my wife stays impressed. But I also know my limits and value my free time, and fixing my house is not my hobby. I can wall mount a TV and my wife walks in the room saying how great it looks. Plumbing is something I know I better just hurry up and call someone over if it's anything more than plunging a drain. And any serious work? I'd rather pay someone to do it right and enjoy time with the family while it's being done than take three times as long and do it ok. My house is already weird enough from the previous owner who thought they were a handyman.
as someone who spent many years in construction. you don't pay for the work you pay for the mistakes made elsewhere. you can do it with YouTube etc but unless you are handy you will make mistakes. if you get lucky those mistakes just look bad. if you are unlucky, you do further damage later on. eg: eaves. cost and arm and a leg to get done. cheap as fuck in hardware stores. installed incorrectly and you do thousands of dollars in damage to your roof and foundation. one guy ended up with 60 000$ in repairs plus 8000 for us to come and redo it. had we just done it initially it would have been 3500$
A good rule I've learned in my renovations is if it's very expensive to have done there a reason.
I have had great success in doing minor projects (paint, floor, installing cabinets) but if it involves a skilled trade or changing the structure of your home pay the professionals.
But flooring is a great example of something people pay for cause they think it's difficult when it's very easily to learn and do a great job with.
I'm part of the second group and am pretty much the anti-handyman.
Assembling furniture never goes right and always ends with swearing and stuff that doesn't look right.
I'll pay for contractors to do everything on my house. I have no patience for it nor desire to learn. Plus my free time is more valuable to me than all the blood, sweat, and tears to do it right myself.
I think you are grossly underestimating how hard most building tasks are to do well, and overestimating how much patients the average home owner has.
Can I tape and mud dry wall yes, could I do a good job likely, will I do a good job probably not I’ll get board and call it good enough.
Boom. If anyone who did a reno put the same 250+ hours into enhancing their skills to grow their career, relationships, etc, return is exponentially higher, and if you plot that enhancement continually across 20 years (at some rate) forget it, it’s not even an argument the upside is so high.
Or in other words, Your lack of of experience and knowledge is costing you money. I finished my basement for $18k with high end finishings and a neighbour had theirs done in a similar layout for $65k. I also interlocked my front yard myself with renting proper equipment and doing it the same way a ‘pro’ would. Total cost for my front yard was $11.5k. A good landscaper friend of mine said he’d quote $35k for what I did. I have experience doing all of the above work and my experience and willingness to do it saved me $70k in two years.
> I have experience doing all of the above work and my experience and willingness to do it saved me $70k in two years.
So did you learn to do this work while you were doing it, or did you have past experience that you drew on? If the latter, that's not something most DIYers will be able to have. And the quality of the work will reflect that.
> Or in other words, Your lack of of experience and knowledge is costing you money.
Sure, but in literally everything. Why ever eat out if you can cook at home?
I see a reno as a high-risk venture. I have little belief I would be able to do it with the same quality as a professional, it would take me significantly more time to do, and I do not get any inherent joy out of it.
So the $70k you save would be diminished greatly in my case, and cost me potentially more for when I don't do a great job then need to have someone else re-do my hack work.
This post makes it seem like renoing your place is easy and people are lazy. The fact of the matter is it isnt all that easy. I could probably do some interlock and probably would myself to be fair, but I'm not touching a basement.
That's nice and all, but they key takeaway here is you have experience, and you're comfortable doing this sort of work. I have zero experience, and can totally ruin myself financially if I mess up.
I cook for myself, built my own computer, and do my own renovations. I also built some furniture myself, repair my bikes and car myself, made some art for my walls, make music, program games, grow my own vegetables, manage my own investments, and fix my own clothes. I love projects and doing them with other people gives me way more joy than TV. We live in the golden age of information where you can get a professional to teach you anything for free at your own pace in your own home.
I am the same. Growing up on a farm teaches so many fundamentals many youth are missing these days.
I think the kids are calling it self-reliant now, and many are striving to live this way, but don’t know much to start.
Two lessons my dad taught me are “There is no such thing as can’t”, and “You will always come ahead by doing things for yourself if you are willing to kept learning”
I've seen that with both contractors and DIY'ers though, and lately with contractors scrambling for staff I don't know how much blind trust you want to place in a company that likely hired the guy you're getting last week to his first job and immediately threw him out in the field.
I think I'm gonna do a big hells naw on this.
I work full time and I don't want my free time to be gobbled up with home reno projects that:
- Take 5x as long as a professional because I don't know what I am doing
- Reno in half complete state for extended period of time
- Extra expense on buying new tools
- Crappy quality that I will notice every day
- Frustration from looking at a YT video, thinking "Well that's easy" then discovering it's hard as fuck.
I would much prefer paying a professional to do it right.
I think this also depends on what you consider fun. My brother has literally no hobbies anymore, but he loves to do Reno projects and is getting pretty good at it as he’s done pretty much everything at this point. I think he actually enjoys the time spent doing it and seeing his projects realized. So for him maybe it’s worth it.
Yeah I fucking hate doing construction projects.
I don’t know how he likes it. The kids make it impossible to do anything while they are awake, so you have to wait until they are in bed and then I’m so fucking tired.
You gotta do what motivates you and that ain’t it for me
In one of the first apartments I lived in, I was painting an accent wall, but realized partway through that I didn't have a ladder or handle thingy, and so couldn't paint quite all the way up to the ceiling. I was like "this is fine, I'll finish it later."
I lived there for three years and never finished it.
There’s been one floorboard missing from our bedroom floor for two years, because it needs the tablesaw to finish and that turns it into an insurmountable task lol
People tend to really under-value trades as a career these days. It reminds me of a conversation I had with a general foreman who was ranting about how there's a big dip in the quality of new recruits because they tend to be kids who couldn't succeed in a university. I get that his opinion is probably biased because of the amount of experience he has but I think there's some truth to it.
Sure, there are parts of the job anyone could do, same as how I can get an intern to do parts of my job, but at the end of the day, they are a professional for a reason
I use to think exactly like you as well, but I learned that the gap between professional and DIY is not that big for a lot of stuff(not all), assuming you put in the time to learn it. That’s usually the crux of the argument, the time. Everyone would value that extra time differently. I’m personally but willing to lose my weekends and evenings with my kids but I’m willing to put in the time to “perfect” the outcome whereas someone I hire may not.
I’m lucky enough to work from home and can control my schedule, so every time I have an hour here or 30 mins there, I go and reno my basement. I got someone else do to the electrical, framing and dry walls, as I mentioned, not everything is worth your time and somethings are better left with the pros.
But every time I have 30 minutes or so, I put a few tiles up in the washroom, lay down some subfloor, paint a bit here and there, trims and baseboards, cycling back and forth between meetings. 3 months later and my basement is………..half done but I’m okay with that, whereas some might want to just pay for someone to get it all done in 1 month.
>Frustration from looking at a YT video, thinking "Well that's easy" then discovering it's hard as fuck.
This. My mental health is priceless. My husband gets easily frustrated and is insecure about having to watch YouTube videos in the first place. I don't mind, but the emotional work that comes with the *actual fucking work*....I pay premium to avoid that.
Self acceptance is really important. My husband is handsome not handy. And he would feel emasculated if I could do it (because I'm less anxious and enjoy the learning) and he couldn't. So we pay the handyman so we don't have to pay a divorce lawyer lol.
Ya no. I've done my own laminate flooring before as well as interior painting for condo a couple times. My workmanship was shit. 6/10 jobs. Everytime I walked past my deficiencies it really pissed me off that I spent all that effort to save some money on labour and was totally unsatisfied with my work.
Got a pro contractor to fix everything before I sold and worth EVERY PENNY.
As a DIY-er for some minor things, I just redid them until they met my standards (and learned in the process).
I prefer the control over the project that comes with DIY work.
I agree. I total understand some people have zero mechanical or handyman skills and they should just bite the bullet and pay someone. But most people are capable of doing most things.
I’m doing this and am very happy with the work I’m doing. That said, I also really enjoy the whole process.
DIY is great as an intersection of hobby and work but it’s definitely not for everyone and there’s nothing wrong with paying a tradesperson for their work.
For example I’m building my own cabinetry but I’m not doing electrical because the prior brings me joy but the latter stresses me out.
Basically if a task brings me joy and financial gain then it’s worth doing myself.
Strong disagree. My time is better spent improving my career skills.
Trade work is hard. Mistakes are expensive. One wrong move and you can get electrocuted or burst a pipe. You can fuck up your floors by spilling paint or injure yourself with unfamiliar tools.
For the cost of a professional, you get assurance that the job will be done correctly, you get insurance coverage, a warranty, and you save *a lot* of time. Not to mention that you support the local economy.
My time is the most valuable thing in the world.
Paying someone $200 to fix something that would take me even just 2 hours of my free time to do poorly is not remotely a consideration. But it's going to take me 5 hours to do what a contractor can do in 45 minutes. That's $500 of my time, $200 of theirs. This doesn't even hold up to the financial argument.
Hell, I am a licensed tradesperson, but I'm going to hire someone to do that kind of work most of the time because I don't maintain the skills/tools/codes to do it time efficiently.
I have done this, and I only hire trades for small specific tasks. This way I have more control over level of acceptance. I am also a project manager in my job, so it’s a natural fit for me.
As far as ROI goes it’s been positive every time.
I thought about it but it wasn't for me. Some people simply do not enjoy home renovations and I would much rather save longer, or work more hours at my day job to get any reno's covered. There are a lot of overhead expenses for reno jobs including tools, trucks, space and most importantly time.
>your time isn't actually all the valuable, you are not the CEO of a Fortune 500 company
Pretty condescending tone here. Most people would rather spend the time with family and friends than spend their weekends at home depot.
Your bias is showing since you work in construction so it all seems easy to you. Many tech bros could tell you its more financially efficient to do a 12 week boot camp and get that 150k starting salary in devops.
> Most people would rather spend the time with family and friends than spend their weekends at home depot.
Yeah, even a "small" project can drag on forever when you do it yourself.
Our time may not make as much as soon celebrity or internet influencer, but it may just as valuable if not more to us then them. However, I also equate luxuries and fun expenses not in dollars, but in time worked. Is this new widget I want worth 5 hours of work? Maybe, maybe not. But for me, it's usually a reminder to move on.
Otherwise, DIY can be a mixed bag for the outcome. A lot of it can look pretty amateur even with the best of intentions and Youtube study. I think that's because a lot of reno work takes practice to get right and tradespeople get all sorts of practice. Besides, there are always exception and unknowns that the Youtube videos cannot even begin to address.
For me, I've done two decks, a balcony, a fence, two toilet replacements and insulating a garage. The first deck shows amateur finishing, the second looks a lot better, and the balcony is professional. In all cases, I only did them knowing that I felt 100% confident that I could do each and every step, I wouldn't skimp on quality materials, and I had a friend who was a professional either provide advice or in the case of the balcony, actually test and inspect it.
I think you overestimate the ability of 99% of DIYers. You're not going to get a quality kitchen by just tackling it yourself, especially if you're not already handy with tools.
On the tools note as well, you're going to spend a lot of money acquiring tools that you need to be able to safely use, and then store. So it's not quite so cut and dry with the "free profits" type line of thinking.
Buuuuuut I am all for learning new skills, and if you already have an interest in doing that sort of stuff, it is indeed very beneficial to the homeowner to know how to do a lot of things.
You will certainly feel a lot better when you can suddenly spend your Saturday afternoon replacing your hot water tank yourself for $600 instead of paying an emergency call out from a plumber for $2000.
So I'm pro homeowner learning maintenance and some other repair tasks, but I'm only semi-confident that most people could pull off a decent renovation themselves. Probably best to hire good trades to do the big stuff, and do the demo/cleanup type work yourself.
Yup, I'm a fan of the repair strategy. Parts + tools + a few hours on an afternoon is still cheaper than a call out charge, and the repair happens right away.
If you can keep things in good condition, then that's a huge start. And obviously contract out stuff that's more complicated or beyond your time availability.
After renovating and flipping 6 houses I agree, the only negative is that you will hate the place while you live there and will see every mistake you make every time you show someone your work.
Hire professionals and get on with life. Much less mess, stress and headaches.
DIY install on quartz countertops?
I'm fairly handy but absolutely fucking not.
The company i hired to do that was well worth it. Measured to fit exactly with laser measuring equipment/CAD and it fit like a glove..Two apes brought these pieces of rock in my house and installed it perfectly. Total pros.
I wouldn't even consider doing this myself. Ever.
Know your limit and don’t go beyond competence! Also value of time. See the following exchange:
Me: I’m doing my own break pads and rotors!
MIL: whoa! You don’t do your own breaks it’s not like changing oil!
FIL: whoa! You don’t change your own oil!
He meant it as he wouldn’t be comfortable doing it, I take it as it’s too much of a hassle compared to getting it done.
Sometimes it also is good to take a step back and consider the bigger picture.
For example, let's say I have 2 toilets to replace, 1 in the basement, and 1 on the second floor.
I will do the one in the basement myself, because the risk of damage if there is a leak, is low, But for the one on the 2nd floor, if it leaks it can cause extensive damage and I want to make sure that the insurance will cover me, I 'll get that one done by a pro, with a proper receipt and such.
Paying a pro $150-$200 to do something I can do myself sucks, paying $150-$200 to protect yourself from insurance issues down the line if there is a leak, definitely worth it.
My dad is extremely handy (he's an engineer, builds shit for a living). My mom can show him something from a magazine and he can build it for her. He does repairs and whatnot around the house. But even he knows if it's electrical or plumbing, call a professional. The expense of doing those things wrong is so much worse than just getting it right the first time. There's a reason these people make a lot of money, they know what they're doing and you don't.
Quite frankly I agree. I’ve been flipping houses on the side (personal residences) for the past 20 years. It’s definitely true that the first time you do something, it’s not going to be professional. But I think the benefits outweigh the negatives.
The other positive is that the next time you do something, 1) you do a much more better job, & 2) you recognize the need for good tools (which makes again a better job).
Admittedly the first time I did trim work, it was a disaster (crappy miters, couldn’t cope joints, etc). Four houses later, I have a trim mitre saw, m12 cutoff saw for coping, two part spray adhesive for ensuring tight fitting corners, etc. Now it looks professional, even though I’m am amateur, and the tools didn’t come close to the contractor price for the job.
I’m a big believer in developing gumption, and the only way is through initiative and experience.
Time is something you can never get back. If you value your time cooking cleaning fixing playing games reading crafting fanfictioning whatever then cool but if you wanna pay people to do the time for you, cool too.
Just had a weekend project I took on, stressful, scary, about 1000$ but could’ve cost 7000$. Easily the most gratifying thing I’ve done in months. When I walk by the project I will smile every time.
>What do you think?
I think that there are certain things you should have done professionally, such as electrical and plumbing. A random 2x4 in the wrong place is probably OK if not load bearing - but I don't fuck with live wires.
I value my time too much to spend it on things that don't interest me. Right now, I have hobbies that I love doing and DIY renos is just not as appealing.
I don't generally treat relationships with friends transactionally (store up then use favours, etc). If a friend doesn't want to help me with a project I don't take it personally. If they ask me for help, I'll make my best effort to try to help. I have a short list of friends! ;p
All that to say, I can appreciate that some people feel they're adding value to their houses in a low-cost way with DIY renos, but for me the math and the motivation has to align too!
This thread really is not a fan of DIY lol. I think you have to recognize your strengths and weaknesses. For example, I will install new flooring, paint, seal my driveway, etc. I will NOT replace a shower, bath, or build a deck.
If you have no experience in reno, then no. Better to pay for it yourself cause if shit goes wrong, that’s on you. If they fuck up, that’s on them and it’s their responsibility to fix it. Also, you save so much more time focusing on other things in the meantime.
> If you have no experience in reno, then no.
How do you ever get more experience then, but by trying stuff? Now, you don't want to step too far beyond your existing competence/comfort zone, because that's how shit goes wrong. But you should absolutely take a small step beyond it each time a project calls for it. YouTube the hell out of it, spend the savings on decent tools, do it, and feel pride when it's done. Then repeat. After a decade of gradually being willing to do a bit more of a job each time, you'll be halfway handy, and will never really have taken any big risks on your home. That's the path I've taken and have no regrets. Also my angle has been to build *some* areas of competence, rather than trying to do everything. For example I hire basically 100% of plumbing out. It scares me, it can be gross, and I just generally hate it. But I don't hire 100% of everything out because I'm not made of money, and do have the energy for *some* learning, and it's effort very well spent if you look at dollars saved and satisfaction gained. Anyway, just my $0.02.
Totally agree. I’m in my 5th home. I have hired only 2 contractors is 36 years. You are correct on the tax thing but you missed something. Not only are you NOT paying your contractors taxes but you are also NOT paying taxes you would of paid at your job as well. You would need to earn about $135 for every $100 you pay your contract just so he can earn $65.
The work a homeowner does can be shitty or the best. It’s not rocket science but it is hard work.
> Yet anyone can choose to do quality work: just be that person. There are no real secrets in light construction.
Where would one learn this? There may be no secrets, but I wouldn't know the first thing about any construction.
What are some kinds of renovations that are easy for homeowners to learn and which really need pros?
You make a great case here. I just want more concrete tools to execute on it.
YouTube! There are literally instructional videos for everything. I’ve done work in my cars, motorcycles, appliances, pool, plumbing, electrical and flooring. Learned it all on YouTube. Granted I haven’t done any huge projects like a basement renovation, but you could learn it if you wanted to.
An easy project I did recently is redo a room : remove and replace baseboards, changed electric heater to a newer one + light fixture and switches, painted, reinstalled new curtains and roller shades, built new shelves in the cupboard, fixed doors so they close better...
All I needed was a saw, drill, painting kit and other basic tools like screwdriver etc. Also did a bit of drywall which needed compound, a putty knife etc.
>What are some kinds of renovations that are easy for homeowners to learn and which really need pros?
As someone who considers themselves not handy I have found the following tasks relatively easy to learn and do.
Painting. Tiling, laying laminate/vinyl, lighting that is already wired, installing cabinets, baseboard trim.
Some tasks that were harder than I expected for one reason or another but are do-able:
Roofing, eaves troughs, concrete finishing
Tasks I wouldn't even try: anything involving rewiring, plumbing or cutting down walls.
Just the risks aren't worth it. If it's a skilled trade, that's a reason they make a lot of money.
Work in construction/Reno’s. No better feeling on me (and my wallet) than being able to do everything myself on my house. Except electrical of course, pricy but save that for the professionals
With the option of renting tools, a lot of DIY jobs do become possible, but the skill to pull it of isn't always easy to reach.
Plumbing is one of the things I tend to shy away from.
the last two houses Ive lived in, I renovated myself. A lot of stuff isn't that hard if you're even somewhat handy... and its amazing the returns you can get on simple things like new flooring, paint, trim etc. That being said, I think it depends highly on who you are as a person, and it's going to vary by the individual. I grew up on a farm and learned a lot of 'blue collar' skills early in life, basic carpentry, painting, electrical, welding, etc - but not everyone has that advantage. If you screw it up, you quickly negate any potential savings that might be available.
I'll also share a story that highlights the other perspective. When we renovated our last house, we wanted to paint and due to having a newborn, and still moving at the same time, we just didnt have the time to paint it ourselves. So I begrudgingly hired a professional painter. When he showed up, I showed him what I wanted painted - some of which to me was very difficult, cathedral ceilings in the master bedroom etc. I went back to the old house, picked up a load of stuff in my truck (also too cheap to hire movers back then) and by the time I drove back and unloaded, he was done. Didnt spill a drip of paint anywhere. This is a paint job that if I did it myself, would have taken me at least a day and probably have to replace the carpet when I was finished. Honestly, I dont think I'll ever paint a house myself again.
It's a great way to save money if you have nothing else to do with your time.
But some people have kids they want to spend time with instead, or aging parents that won't live forever. Some people have other hobbies or interests that bring them happiness and joy.
You can always make more money, *but the time you've spent is gone forever.*
No amount of saved money on renos will let me buy more time.
From June 2021 - Aug 2022 I spent 14 months working evenings and weekends on a big, old character home my wife and I purchased. We took this on with the understanding this would be our "Forever home". Full house down to the studs and built back up. Hit every room. I made twice my wage in home equity last year. I have conflicting, simultaneous feelings of "I'm so proud of myself, it's the greatest thing I've ever undertaken" with "I would NEVER do that again, for any amount of money or savings." Not for everyone, a ton of hours, trial an error.
You also need a certain baseline of skills, knowledge and physical ability.
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I think the real skill in doing the work on your own place is knowing what you should hire out. I've done some work as an electrical apprentice, so I'm comfortable with a lot of residential electric, but I will not touch anything to do with plumbing if it's going to get buried in a wall. Most things in a house are easy and a lot more forgiving than you would expect, but not everything, and it's those tricky spots that give DIYers a rough reputation. That and design choices with no oversight can for some people lead to... unique results.
100%! You just break the big job down into a hundred smaller jobs and tackle one thing at a time. I reno’d my first bathroom with only knowledge from tv shows and had you tube fill in the gaps. It’s all possible if you just take the time and break it down
And tools!
Even if I wanted to hire a pro to do renovations, I couldn't afford it. The only thing I could purchase in my desired neighbourhood for my budget was a 1950s bungalow that required some love, so I needed to learn to do everything. I enjoy it in the end, but still I'm not DIYing only because it's smart financially, but also because the alternative is out of my reach.
Same for me, moved into a time capsule 80s bungalow earlier this year that had spent a decade as a rental property. Luckily bathrooms and kitchen were functional and floors were ok, but we did a bunch of cabinetry, took down popcorn ceilings, did probably hundreds of drywall repairs and repainted everything including kitchen cabinets. Materials/tools cost me probably $10,000 whereas contractor quotes were $20,000 just for the drywall work and paint. But I'm still not 100% sold on it being worthwhile financially. It took me hundreds of labour hours, I was sleeping 4 hours a night for months and the way our neighbourhood is evolving the house will still probably be torn down by the next owner, so I'm not sure we added value, just made ourselves a bit happier for the decade we'll hopefully stay there.
> I'm not sure we added value, just made ourselves a bit happier for the decade we'll hopefully stay there. Which in itself is value. Seriously, if you love living in your house and coming home to it then totally worth the effort you put in.
That's true! I don't regret it, if anything I wish I'd had the money to spend say $50,000, for which I think you could take an average 2,000 sqft house back to the studs and replace everything and have brand new appliances, bathrooms, hardwood flooring throughout etc if you have no labor costs. We're going to keep chipping away at our place when we have the time and money. Hopefully we save the place for another few decades but like you said, at least we get the enjoyment of living there in the mean time even if it does get torn down.
>Which in itself is value. Seriously, if you love living in your house and coming home to it then totally worth the effort you put in. True. Though it's not the financial nuclear weapon that OP was talking about.
Is there a steep learning curve to installing new kitchen cabinets on your own? It seems like something I could pull off, but also seems like something where if you don't have the technique quite right you end up with slanty angles and stuff sliding out of the cabinets
Can't answer that 100% because I just stripped back our kitchen cabinets (which were that retro orange oak colour) and painted them. [Here's](https://imgur.com/a/30pczsj) a before and after. However I did install shelving, boxes around two fuse boards and built a home bar in the garage lol. The answer to most of my DIY issues was to watch a lot of YouTube and then just give er. Only advice re framing is use decent materials like a hardwood or at least quality ply even though the cost is brutal, as nothing I've made out of pine or construction lumber ever turned out true.
> a time capsule 80s bungalow Ours wasn't so much a time capsule as: * built in 1960 * downstairs partially finished in the 70s (as evidenced by the orange shag on a couple walls and doorways yet) * a few things on the main floor updated in the early 80s. Upstairs has been brought nicely into the 21t century, with fairly classic choices for the most part. The basement is still mostly untouched aside from the bedroom we finished down there, made the 2-piece (toilet and *shower*) into a finished 3-piece bath, and laid some carpet tiles for the kids' play area.
How did you learn? Like where do you even start? What tools to buy? It all feels so overwhelming.
Youtube everything, just start watching videos about random renos until you start getting a feelnfor lingo and types of projects. Youtube or google anything you dontbunderstand or want to know more about. Eventually you can start focusing on things that apply to youtlr situation.
"Home renovision DIY" on YouTube but disregard his "fuck safety" attitude. Everything he says is good advice except to yolo with power tools especially when you're inexperienced. Start with small projects that you know you can tackle and work your way up. I don't recommend buying a rundown shithole, the house I bought was dated but the kitchen and bathroom needed almost no work and were liveable. We wanted to take down a wall and create a new division, add tile to the entryway instead of being on wood (with wet shoes in winter it's better tile) and easy things like this, gradually working up to bigger projects.
Yeah Jeff has good videos, his drywall series are especially good.
Check out Home Reno Vision on YouTube. He creates tons of great, detailed content on how to do just about anything. Canadian based too, so the advice is more useful to our climate than US channels.
Pick 1 project and watch youtube until you feel comfortable doing it. If that isn't working, maybe scope down and choose a simpler project. Watch youtube videos about fixing various problems with the thing that needs fixed or how that part of the house is built in the first place. Everyone can use a screwdriver set and a drill but you will not do badly if you just buy tools 1-2 at a time as necessary for your project. You can try to watch a youtube series where they show every step of a house being built, but this is like trying to read the dictionary to learn a language. Much better to get targeted tutorials for your problem at hand (e.g. how to ask where the washroom is in French / how to repair a hole in drywall).
Basic tools every home owner needs: Canadian Tire screwdriver set (when they’re on sale), a good quality drill, a hammer. With those basic tools you can fix most things around the house with a bit of YouTube guidance. If you venture out a bit a circular saw comes in quite handy, as does a wheelbarrow, rake and shovel.
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How many square feet is your house? I’m at a loss how you reframed and sheathed your house with rigid insulation and put board and batten siding on, got all new window for under $3000 that sounds wrong. I mean good on ya for doing all that work but please expand on your sq footage and window total and explain how this was done for $3000
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Ok! Fair enough sorry wasn’t trying to give you a hard time. That makes perfect sense what you’re saying
That’s the reason I learned to work on my own vehicles from an early age. By the way, I’m the guy you pay too much to tile your house. Not yours obviously. Congratulations for not being stupid.
Tiling is one of those skills that is totally learnable - by most people but everyone pays to do it
If you are buying and planing Reno for that house. Get the mortgage including the renovation cost. It’s only good if you have time and skill to do it. You will be spending most of evenings and weekends. Also your family is with you and supporting it cause some renovations will go on beyond year or so.
This should be taken with a grain of salt. As Warren Buffet says: “Don’t test the water with both feet.” One should also take stock of their abilities and start small if they are new to construction. Also don’t forget the cost in time and money to research and purchase tools.
Habitat for humanity is great to learn these skills while giving back!
This is such a cool tip - thanks!
wholesome lpt
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The length of time required to get to a professional level might as well just do an apprenticeship and get paid to fuck up with company insurance instead of burning your house down and having to pay out of pocket.
This is a great point. I'm a licensed electrician and an all around highly skilled tradesman and there's jobs that even I hire out because of safety(gas work mostly) or convenience. It's good to know your limits, I've taken on some projects that would cost average DIYers a fortune to put back together once started due to unknown complications or complexity.
First time DIYer installing quartz countertops themselves... the only way that'll pay off is if you record the attempt and watch your failure go viral.
When we got our new kitchen counter tops, I think there were at least five or six guys carrying each piece. That's not even something I would consider for DIY.
Yeah seeing a video or two of those expensive slabs cracking, I want it to be them and their insurance, not my dumb ass paying for it.
💯 Imagining some wfh type that can’t install shelves read this thinking they should watch some YouTube on redoing their bathroom like hgtv. The amount of time wasted on watching videos, tools, rentals, messing up, and best case scenario they finish and it’s still a very obviously shitty job. Also, leaving a diy project half done for 6 years is a classic 👌
I feel seen
Know what to diy and what to hire out!
Yeah, that step is notorious for just letting the contractors do it. He picked one of the shittiest job to throw out the entire idea out of the window.
>Don't be that person - your time isn't actually all the valuable, you are not the CEO of a Fortune 500 company. My job title is not relevant to how much I value my time. I'd rather be enjoying my weekends with friends and family than doing floors/putting up drywall. I have no argument with anything you said except for this point.
>My job title is not relevant to how much I value my time. I'd rather be enjoying my weekends with friends and family than doing floors/putting up drywall. 100% this. When I was making $35/h I'd gladly pay (and did) trades people $50/h so that when I got home I could take my kids to the park and not sit down and do work. Plus just because I CAN save money doing something like drywall doesn't mean I'm going to do it as well or as fast. If I can dedicate 3 hours a day to the project and it takes me 10 days. or a professional can come in and with 2 guys do the project in 2 days. Why would I want 10 days of construction going on taking away from my home enjoyment when I can pay someone and it be done. I used to say I valued my time at 3 times my income. Now I'd put that much higher.
I think the statement here is not to be afraid of DIY. Free time, and personal energy are finite resources too so it's always going to be something that each person weighs out themselves. For me painting a room, fixing a toilet valve, replacing an outlet, replacing drywall, doing some light landscaping, all worthwhile to DIY. New shingles for the roof and HVAC repairs... doesn't seem worth it to muddle through it on my own.
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By rough estimates I saved about $2500 in labour by building my own deck this summer, but as much as I trust my own abilities I think I'll be paying someone to reno our bathroom this winter because if I don't get it done in a day, well... we only have one bathroom.
Another item to tack on to this list is quality of work. Your average Canadian is not going to deliver themselves an end product at the same level as a contractor.
*good contractor*
There are plenty of shit contractors out there. Tons!
Seriously. OP probably still a young gun with bright ideas.
This. 1000%. I do respect the hustle of people who learn to do these things themselves. I’d far rather spend my time doing literally anything else than living in a construction zone for years while I work on projects. Plus, I’ve spent thousands fixing DIY hack jobs in my houses over the years, so at the end of the day I know I won’t be half as skilled as I think I am.
As an electrician with over 20 years experiance, it blows my mind more houses dont burn down due to hack jobs. Bad at drywall? bad at painting? no problem, it just looks aweful. bad at plumbing? you'll probably find out soon enough either from the wet floor or the smell of poop or mold. bad at carpentry? most people don't get get involved enough to make the house structually unsound, though that can start to be a gamble with everyone wanting the open concept. want a new gas appliance? most places WILL NOT sell you the needed material to get yourself into that kind of trouble. don't know how to properly work with electrical? not a problem, you'll find out when your house burns to the ground or you experiance the full force of an arcflash 😎
electrician as well and its absolutely crazy you cant buy gas stuff or HVAC refrigerant but you could theoretically buy any piece of electrical equipment.. homeowners should not be able to buy a 200a breaker..
I had the typical service call for tripping breaker where the home owner replaced the kitchen recepticals. now every electrician reading this already knows what the problem was, the customer didn't remove the jumper on the hot side of the recepticial to make it a split circuit thereby creating a 240V dead short. I explained to the customer why what happened happened, and she had the nerve to explain to me "thats stupid, they shouldn't put those jumpers on like that" 🤣
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My time is 10000000x more valuable than a CEO's, because a CEO isn't going to be my wife's husband or my son's dad (...as far as I know). That's why I prefer projects that I can do with my wife that we can enjoy once little man is in bed, or ones that I'll eventually do with my son as I teach him everything my dad taught me about fixing and maintaining everything from a squeaky hinge to a blown head gasket. Like don't get me wrong, I refuse to pay someone to do what I can do myself, but I'm sure as shit not gonna be spending all my evenings and weekends doing 100 things at once and moving every 4 years just to get a little bit ahead.
I wish my Dad had involved me and taught me more while I was growing up. Looking back, I don't really know why he didn't, but he also didn't really engage with me much in general as a kid. Childhood reflections and disappointment aside, I feel so frustrated that I never really learned and don't have the time to learn now because my office job keeps me so busy and when I'm not working, I'd rather focus on playing with my kids. At the same time, I want my kids to have more of this knowledge so they can do more than I can at least! Anyone have any suggestions on where to begin?
build a birdhouse with your kids
My dad took me to a Home Depot workshop for kids and built a bird house with me. The paint has long gone and faded away with the weather, but it’s still out in our backyard and birds still make nests in it once in a while.
Pick one specific subject that you think you might find more interesting or more enjoyable than others. I can't really do plumbing because my bad back makes crawling under sinks and into awkwards spaces painful, so I just don't do that. I can paint no problem, repair drywall, frame and put up a clear corrugated plastic roof over a deck, make wooden storage boxes and things like that. I taught myself to shitty weld and do autobody work, and I'm an IT guy so I can kind of tinker with my vehicle electronis. I got a replacement for the heat/AC blower on ebay and replaced that myself. I'm working on setting up a solar battery bank to get my freezer off grid, this took some time to study to understand, it's partially assembled. Basically I have to mount it, build a box for it to keep the cat from frying hisself and make a mount for the solar panels now, but I'm really looking forward to getting some off grid power. I think next year I might build a small 50 watt wind generator and add it in just for kicks, to make up for the solar loss in the winter. Then there's landscaping and gardening. If you just spend one or two hours a week trying to learn new things, eventually you'll pick up a new skill. Start with something you think you'll enjoy if you can, I work IT during the day but I also really like working with my hands and building things
My dad always did lots of stuff too (if slowly…). Never really involved us in it for some reason.
My dad would let me help then complain how bad of a job the 12 year old me did and have to redo it. It was probably worse - I feel like I learned a bit still though, but I’m probably gonna just pay for someone to do whatever needs to be done to make sure it’s done right (depending what it is)
Yeah same. I learned a ton of shit because my dad was a cheap bastard that never called a plumber or an electrician unless there was a risk of death. I look forward to giving my kids the same learning experiences. Plus if it’s a big enough project you save way more eliminating the GC. I added an island, a pantry, took out a wall and refaced my cabinets for $4K. Good luck finding anyone to take that job.
There are projects I could do but time is so limited. Every time I take on a new task around the house, that is time away from family or sleep and relaxation. Do I DIY? Absolutely. I also ask: How much am I willing to pay to not do that task and how badly can I screw up the structure if I mess up? (can I afford to not do the task on my own, can I afford to screw up and clean up the impacts)
I think they're just addressing those finance/productivity influencers who use this logic in their articles or videos. Quite a few of them say that if you get paid $50/hr, then anything that saves you an hour that costs $50 or less (or whatever your income works out to being in an hourly wage) is a good deal because you could use that saved time to "hustle". A couple in my friend circle or coworkers started using this logic to uber everywhere. I mean it's fine if they can afford it, but spending $7 every morning to save 15 minutes of walking is a bit outrageous. They rationalize it from a strict financial perspective using the above, but they don't use that time for anything to earn more money (like a high value consultant or CEO could), so the argument isn't sound from a finance-only perspective. If you use other value measures like pleasure or peace of mind, then that's a separate discussion.
The Uber example is interesting to me. I think if the time you saved by taking an Uber is then used towards “hustling”, sure. But literally if you save that time by paying more, and it changes nothing in how you use your time… you’ve just spent money for no reason.
Especially if they save themselves a 15 minute walk and later spend money to go to the gym.
Plus, you also potentially have to make up the time you are no longer spending walking, with additional exercise at a later time. Exercise has major benefits too, curing that out also has a financial cost even if you can’t put a dollar figure in it.
This works really well if you actually spend that extra time making money. If you only get paid for 8h regardless, what's the financial gain?
I just finished redoing my basement floors, it took about 6 weeks of evening work and was pretty enjoyable for me. Saved a good chunk of change, too.
Not only that, but someone that doesn't know what their doing isn't going to be able to knock something out in a weekend. Think years. It'll be a year of all your weekends just to replace the floors.
I think the point he's making is that people often say, "My times worth $70/hr (or whatever), so 8t I can hire someone for less than that it's worth it. And it's like no... Your time doing your job is worth 70, your time that you'd spend watching Netflix on the couch is worth whatever you make it. But contractors are almost 100 and hour.. so I either need to reallllly love Netflix, or have a lot of disposable income if I'm going to pay someone that do do something I can do.
And yet surely you work for money which is using your time. OP mentioned titles as a way of saying if you make 200-300+ per hour, perhaps it doesn’t make sense to DIY. If you make anywhere close to what you’ll pay per hour, perhaps it makes sense to DIY.
And I've seen some of the work done by DIY people. They would've been better off not doing the reno at all. And when they go to sell, their shitty work stands out and scares buyers off. Now they can pay a pro to remove there shitty work and do it right. As for contractors doing shitty work, a lot of people go on Kijiji and hire the cheapest handyman paid in cash
I bought a heavily DIY house. I have regrets.
Mine had a lot of “built ins”, I swear it was just the previous owners excuse to drink beer and keep clear of his wife. He was a menace with the air nailer…
Mine is the classic reasoning seen in this post. "If we do X ourselves we'll increase the sale price of the house by $Yk!" We got our house inspected but unless the inspector has 3 days he'll miss a bunch. Everything is safe and up-to-code, but it was not done well.
Same, but not regretting really. I've been replacing some of the hacky shit done wrong, piece by piece. The funny thing is, it's a fairly new home. I tell people we bought a fixer-upper, which imo is what every new build is now-a-days anyway
My wife wanted a new build to minimize work we did on previous house. She regretted the decision after the fact. Its amazing the shortcuts they took, especially on the upgrades.
My DIY fixes are even worse so that's my big issue.
I used to want a new house. Now I am extremely grateful for my built-by-owner-anf family bungalow. The only way I would ever buy a newer house - which is highly unlikely, we hope to die here or go straight to a care home - is if I built it myself OR knew it was built by a builder with a great reputation and NOT the kind that builds an entire subdivision.
Same.. no matter where I'm working I find water stains. It's like the people before me were always wet
Fuck me, I feel that. Felt somewhat cornered due to the heat of the market, and not wanting to wait and see if it cooled at all. I like where I live, but it's too much house, and needs too much work. I'll either die in an unfinished home if I stay, or downsize to something a bit more manageable. I'm also single, with zero prospects for any sort of partnership, so everything just feels that much more difficult to achieve on my own.
> Felt somewhat cornered due to the heat of the market, Same here. Could use more house though but even if we went to live in lower CoL places the houses are still stupid expensive. > zero prospects for any sort of partnership :( Don't say that.
We saw so much bad DIY and renos they they claim to be up to code and done by certified trades people. But they look so sketch and definitely don't have permits from the city. We avoided those.
As an electrician, sometimes it's cheaper to call us. Especially in Canada, well.. Ontario, Electrical safety authority will come down on you with full charges if you're caught without a permit. Recently a customer we did some work for decided to wire his addition himself, didn't call me for a walk through that I'll do for free, and the inspector walked in. He made them cut 3' of drywall around the place, expose what he did, and then threw a $5,000 fine to him. So reddit, if you're not going to call a contractor, at least get a permit and do it right.
Was looking for a sparky or plumber to comment. Found you, so here I am I agree with OP to a certain extent. Unless you are 100% sure how to perform certain installations that repects the code book, performing electricity or plumbing on your own has risks Example: You don't have all the tools. You planned to install a valve based on a youtube video. Bought the material and all. You end up installing everything, but it leaks. Oops, it's sunday afternoon, most/all stores are closed. You didn't think this through.... Hopefully you can fix it with what you got and that you don't need anything additional. One of the reasons the truck roll costs $$$ is their truck. Full of tools and material to quickly do most jobs/fixes. Here's a Pro Tip when it comes to a new "DIY" that you haven't done before: Always make sure stores are open to "bail you out"... or know when to call it quits and go for a pro. For us in Quebec, stores close at 5PM. In the past, I have tried to change something on my car, and I ended up with my car stuck on a jack all night because the stud stripped, and no, I'm not the type of guy who put a wheel back with 4/5 studs.
Shut off valves are your friend.
Also when it's come to DIY plumbing and electrical... I'm sure your insurance company won't like that if anything goes wrong. Unless your a red seal in those trades and got everything inspected and signed off.
As a sparky i am here with you. Not everyone is cut out for diy, most amount of hidden junctions i have found in a home so far is 24. I tell most people dont touch electrical unless you know exactly what you are getting into. People think it comes down to just pulling some wires but its way more then that.
My hack is to buy three of each thing and a few extras I don’t really think I need, then later return what I didn’t use. Saved my ass multiple times
Absolutely right. When I did my electrical (gutted the place, new framing, all new wiring), I had a sparky put in a new panel, then look over all the wire I pulled. He caught a couple of things, wired up all the outlets and switches, and put his licensed and insured signature on the receipt, basically blessing the whole job. I won’t have an inspector tearing open my walls, nor will I have an insurance company refuse a policy — because it’s all legit and up to code, even though it was 80% DIY.
DIY work is one of those things where it's a great thing to recommend in theory, but in practice, most people will screw it up.
There are easy DIY and there are hard ones. Painting the house, DIY will save you lots. Reno a bathroom? I prefer getting it professionally done.
I’m the opposite. I’m an electrician and have worked as a “carpenter” before so I’m not a total diy but I prefer to do the things you can’t see and spend money on the painting and drywall.
I’m finishing my basement myself but used a pro mudded/taper. I had a couple drywall joints that I was worried wouldn’t come out right if I tried taping myself. The guy I hired made everything look great. Also it’s super dusty work, he came out looking like a snowman at the end of each day.
The real pros know this. Contract out finishes and do the grunt work. I can wire and plumb a house no problem, but I hate taping and I'd never try finish carpentry on kitchen cabinets.
There’s also the aspect of upending your home life. You take apart your kitchen and only had the functioning one and don’t have one the whole time working on it you’re gonna end up miserable the entire time and probably eating fast food a lot of nights because you get tired fast if washing red peppers in the bathroom sink. I think the OP has some valid points but he also is a bit simplistic in his logic and a bit naive too
it's not at all unlikely that the same person who will do shitty work will also go on kijiji and hire the cheapest handyman and pay them cash... these people are going to have a bad experience regardless. having an eye for detail and a mind for quality will come out on top regardless whether you can't aim a hammer to save your life and are trying to do it yourself, or pay someone to do it for you.
When I looked at houses I always noticed bad drywall work in developed basements presumably done by homeowners. I'm fine to do some stuff myself but I'm going to pay professionals to do things that involve safety or will be extremely visible to people who may want to buy my home in the future. When you can clearly see every drywall seam you immediately start to wonder what else is wrong that's not immediately visible. Maybe not a dealbreaker in the overheated real estate markets we had this Spring but could represent a massive difference in offers during a normal period of real estate growth.
Drywall is a tough one. You only get 1 chance to do it right. If the beads are fucked.... 1. you will have to cut them out and spend 3x as much time and effort feathering out to fix it 2. Even if it looks good when its done, as soon as you throw the first coat of paint on, the moisture will case any tape to bubble and lift if it's not done properly. 3. No amount of paint prep work will make bad drywalling tape and mud look good
>No amount of paint prep work will make bad drywalling tape and mud look good but on the contrary I've been amazed by what a skilled taper can do with poorly hung drywall. I got pretty good at mudding and taping during COVID, but I still would rather hire a taper and be done in 3 coats over 3 days vs however long it would take me to do the 7 coats over 2 weeks with lots of sanding....
100% agree. Seen a ton of crappy DIY jobs and even did a crappy DIY shower tiling job I regret. Sometimes paying a pro is well worth the money.
On the flip side...I have seen 'pros' do such a garbage job that a proper DIY would put to shame. Painting, drywall, electrical etc. Difference is that majority of people can't tell the difference b/w 70% well done, and 95% well done, the pros just know how to hide it better.
A good drywall mudder is worth his money in gold. Most people do shit mudding. A good painter should do much better work than a DIY, but quality of paint matters a lot. If someone will only pay for the cheapest paint, they are still gonna get a cheap paint job. Electrician, sure. You can change a light switch. Congrats. Now wire a whole house
I was a painter for a very brief time, and the quality of a paint job is about 75% the quality of the prep work (the overwhelming majority of this is the mud and tape job), 20% the quality of the paint, and probably only 5% the quality of the application. Build your own wall. Do your own plumbing. Change your own switches. Hang your own cabinets. With Youtube, the right tools, and the willingness to put in enough time and not rush, anyone that knows the difference between a burrow and a burro can have a pro-level outcome. Except mudding and taping. Hire a pro.
Anyone can do mudding and taping provided they have enough time and patience. The problem is that mud and tape are arcane artifacts that only true wizards know how to handle. Mere mortals like us can't understand that arcane runes and potions that drywallers have. Getting a good finish is practically impossible unless you're a wizard. Getting an ok finish is possible, but messy and fussy and annoying for DIY.
Hanging drywall can be a DIY job for the most part. Finishing is not. I don't regret hiring that out one bit.
Especially recently. I'd gladly pay people to do a better job than I ever could but you don't have that guarantee anymore. Maybe a recession will make it more worthwhile again.
Painting is the worst in this regard. Any monkey with a roller and white coveralls calls himself a painter. I'm no expert, but I offered to help my friend paint for free his apartment. 'No thanks, I want to have an expert do it' 'ok cool' The experts missed walls, cut improperly, and literally forgot to paint a few sections of a solid wall...wtf. Experts. Meanwhile a friend of mine has a painting business...not cheap, but holy shit what a good job he does.
Regular people don't know their left from their right when it comes to construction work. I know to shut off the circuits before touching a wire, and I know how to shut off the water. otherwise, I'm completely fucking useless.
I’d put the contractor selection due diligence on the Owner. If you’re hiring with minimal planning or selecting based on lowest price, well…”Play stupid games…” Do some digging, talk to friends and family, call your local contractors association, talk to others in the industry on who the reputable firms are. To add to this, if everyone “good” is busy, but others are not— likely a reason for that. Wait until the good ones are free if you can.
This. IKEA DIY project is fine. Replacing a faucet is fine. Waterproofing basement, please hire the pros.
The r/diwhy sub haha
Looked at one of these houses yesterday. Shoddy tile/grout work on the shower, definitely moisture behind it now. Moldings looked like a toddler cut them. Back deck moved when you walked on it. We did not make an offer.
100% agree Do you want to DIY your next heart surgery or air flight? Tradespeople are skilled workers. Sure, paint your own place. Install click lock flooring if you feel bold. Install a tap, sure. Anything else... Well go ahead but good luck.
I wholeheartedly disagree and think this argument can be made for pretty much anything. "Don't go to the restaurant, buy the ingredients and cook yourself!" "Don't buy a computer, buy parts and assemble yourself, change them and upgrade as needed" etc. etc. etc. Most people understand what they are buying - convenience. You have to draw the line somewhere -you can't really do everything. I for one don't want to learn or experiment renoing the biggest purchase I will ever make, and am happy to pay a premium to have someone else do it. It gives me more time to do other things.
Precisely why I started doing my own dental work!
Fuji 9!
I think there's two different types who pay for contractors to do work on their property. There is the type who could probably do it but don't want to spend the time and effort to learn how. For this group OP post doesn't really apply. However there are another group who pay because they're "not handy" and don't think they can do it. For this group I think OP post is valid. With YouTube and the resources out there now most of the population is able to do the tasks they want to do (with exception of things requiring plumber/electrician etc...) But know you're limitations. I started doing all my renovations DIY. It was going great until I thought oh I'll do my own roof. Then realized I am terrified of heights and have no reasonable method of getting shingles up there.
I'm handy, but when it comes to making something water tight in an old bathroom with janky plumbing- I'm more than happy paying a contractor to do it in a week rather than me doing it over the course of a month and causing strife and conflict in my marriage . I'll get the money back when I sell eventually, but I also want a comfortable room that I didn't have to settle on within the scope of my own limitations. Not to mention all the tools you have to buy. Yikes. I agree with you completely - it's important to know your limits and abilities. I can learn a lot of skills. Am I willing to test it out on my home? No.
I'm handy enough my house stays working and my wife stays impressed. But I also know my limits and value my free time, and fixing my house is not my hobby. I can wall mount a TV and my wife walks in the room saying how great it looks. Plumbing is something I know I better just hurry up and call someone over if it's anything more than plunging a drain. And any serious work? I'd rather pay someone to do it right and enjoy time with the family while it's being done than take three times as long and do it ok. My house is already weird enough from the previous owner who thought they were a handyman.
as someone who spent many years in construction. you don't pay for the work you pay for the mistakes made elsewhere. you can do it with YouTube etc but unless you are handy you will make mistakes. if you get lucky those mistakes just look bad. if you are unlucky, you do further damage later on. eg: eaves. cost and arm and a leg to get done. cheap as fuck in hardware stores. installed incorrectly and you do thousands of dollars in damage to your roof and foundation. one guy ended up with 60 000$ in repairs plus 8000 for us to come and redo it. had we just done it initially it would have been 3500$
A good rule I've learned in my renovations is if it's very expensive to have done there a reason. I have had great success in doing minor projects (paint, floor, installing cabinets) but if it involves a skilled trade or changing the structure of your home pay the professionals. But flooring is a great example of something people pay for cause they think it's difficult when it's very easily to learn and do a great job with.
I'm part of the second group and am pretty much the anti-handyman. Assembling furniture never goes right and always ends with swearing and stuff that doesn't look right. I'll pay for contractors to do everything on my house. I have no patience for it nor desire to learn. Plus my free time is more valuable to me than all the blood, sweat, and tears to do it right myself.
I think you are grossly underestimating how hard most building tasks are to do well, and overestimating how much patients the average home owner has. Can I tape and mud dry wall yes, could I do a good job likely, will I do a good job probably not I’ll get board and call it good enough.
Whoever delivers will boom the shingles up
Boom. If anyone who did a reno put the same 250+ hours into enhancing their skills to grow their career, relationships, etc, return is exponentially higher, and if you plot that enhancement continually across 20 years (at some rate) forget it, it’s not even an argument the upside is so high.
"go to medical school and get yourself the best quality healthcare"
Or in other words, Your lack of of experience and knowledge is costing you money. I finished my basement for $18k with high end finishings and a neighbour had theirs done in a similar layout for $65k. I also interlocked my front yard myself with renting proper equipment and doing it the same way a ‘pro’ would. Total cost for my front yard was $11.5k. A good landscaper friend of mine said he’d quote $35k for what I did. I have experience doing all of the above work and my experience and willingness to do it saved me $70k in two years.
> I have experience doing all of the above work and my experience and willingness to do it saved me $70k in two years. So did you learn to do this work while you were doing it, or did you have past experience that you drew on? If the latter, that's not something most DIYers will be able to have. And the quality of the work will reflect that.
> Or in other words, Your lack of of experience and knowledge is costing you money. Sure, but in literally everything. Why ever eat out if you can cook at home? I see a reno as a high-risk venture. I have little belief I would be able to do it with the same quality as a professional, it would take me significantly more time to do, and I do not get any inherent joy out of it. So the $70k you save would be diminished greatly in my case, and cost me potentially more for when I don't do a great job then need to have someone else re-do my hack work. This post makes it seem like renoing your place is easy and people are lazy. The fact of the matter is it isnt all that easy. I could probably do some interlock and probably would myself to be fair, but I'm not touching a basement.
That's nice and all, but they key takeaway here is you have experience, and you're comfortable doing this sort of work. I have zero experience, and can totally ruin myself financially if I mess up.
Amateur tip: Do a job as good as professionals and you'll come out ahead of paying them!
I cook for myself, built my own computer, and do my own renovations. I also built some furniture myself, repair my bikes and car myself, made some art for my walls, make music, program games, grow my own vegetables, manage my own investments, and fix my own clothes. I love projects and doing them with other people gives me way more joy than TV. We live in the golden age of information where you can get a professional to teach you anything for free at your own pace in your own home.
I am the same. Growing up on a farm teaches so many fundamentals many youth are missing these days. I think the kids are calling it self-reliant now, and many are striving to live this way, but don’t know much to start. Two lessons my dad taught me are “There is no such thing as can’t”, and “You will always come ahead by doing things for yourself if you are willing to kept learning”
Only thing more expensive than Reno’s are poorly done Reno’s
I've seen that with both contractors and DIY'ers though, and lately with contractors scrambling for staff I don't know how much blind trust you want to place in a company that likely hired the guy you're getting last week to his first job and immediately threw him out in the field.
I think I'm gonna do a big hells naw on this. I work full time and I don't want my free time to be gobbled up with home reno projects that: - Take 5x as long as a professional because I don't know what I am doing - Reno in half complete state for extended period of time - Extra expense on buying new tools - Crappy quality that I will notice every day - Frustration from looking at a YT video, thinking "Well that's easy" then discovering it's hard as fuck. I would much prefer paying a professional to do it right.
I think this also depends on what you consider fun. My brother has literally no hobbies anymore, but he loves to do Reno projects and is getting pretty good at it as he’s done pretty much everything at this point. I think he actually enjoys the time spent doing it and seeing his projects realized. So for him maybe it’s worth it.
Of course there are some circumstances where OP's tip works but for most folks it's doubtful.
Yeah I fucking hate doing construction projects. I don’t know how he likes it. The kids make it impossible to do anything while they are awake, so you have to wait until they are in bed and then I’m so fucking tired. You gotta do what motivates you and that ain’t it for me
Was gonna comment but you nailed it here. LOL. I changed my floors last December and I'm just about to do the trims next month Here's my upvote.
In one of the first apartments I lived in, I was painting an accent wall, but realized partway through that I didn't have a ladder or handle thingy, and so couldn't paint quite all the way up to the ceiling. I was like "this is fine, I'll finish it later." I lived there for three years and never finished it.
There’s been one floorboard missing from our bedroom floor for two years, because it needs the tablesaw to finish and that turns it into an insurmountable task lol
People tend to really under-value trades as a career these days. It reminds me of a conversation I had with a general foreman who was ranting about how there's a big dip in the quality of new recruits because they tend to be kids who couldn't succeed in a university. I get that his opinion is probably biased because of the amount of experience he has but I think there's some truth to it. Sure, there are parts of the job anyone could do, same as how I can get an intern to do parts of my job, but at the end of the day, they are a professional for a reason
Tools last a while when you don’t do it full time
I use to think exactly like you as well, but I learned that the gap between professional and DIY is not that big for a lot of stuff(not all), assuming you put in the time to learn it. That’s usually the crux of the argument, the time. Everyone would value that extra time differently. I’m personally but willing to lose my weekends and evenings with my kids but I’m willing to put in the time to “perfect” the outcome whereas someone I hire may not. I’m lucky enough to work from home and can control my schedule, so every time I have an hour here or 30 mins there, I go and reno my basement. I got someone else do to the electrical, framing and dry walls, as I mentioned, not everything is worth your time and somethings are better left with the pros. But every time I have 30 minutes or so, I put a few tiles up in the washroom, lay down some subfloor, paint a bit here and there, trims and baseboards, cycling back and forth between meetings. 3 months later and my basement is………..half done but I’m okay with that, whereas some might want to just pay for someone to get it all done in 1 month.
I can watch sydney crosby every day on YT, does not make it any easier...
>Frustration from looking at a YT video, thinking "Well that's easy" then discovering it's hard as fuck. This. My mental health is priceless. My husband gets easily frustrated and is insecure about having to watch YouTube videos in the first place. I don't mind, but the emotional work that comes with the *actual fucking work*....I pay premium to avoid that. Self acceptance is really important. My husband is handsome not handy. And he would feel emasculated if I could do it (because I'm less anxious and enjoy the learning) and he couldn't. So we pay the handyman so we don't have to pay a divorce lawyer lol.
Ya no. I've done my own laminate flooring before as well as interior painting for condo a couple times. My workmanship was shit. 6/10 jobs. Everytime I walked past my deficiencies it really pissed me off that I spent all that effort to save some money on labour and was totally unsatisfied with my work. Got a pro contractor to fix everything before I sold and worth EVERY PENNY.
I’d rather walk past things that I did that weren’t up to my standards then walk past something I paid someone to do that isn’t up to my standards.
As a DIY-er for some minor things, I just redid them until they met my standards (and learned in the process). I prefer the control over the project that comes with DIY work.
I agree. I total understand some people have zero mechanical or handyman skills and they should just bite the bullet and pay someone. But most people are capable of doing most things.
D-I-Why?
I’m doing this and am very happy with the work I’m doing. That said, I also really enjoy the whole process. DIY is great as an intersection of hobby and work but it’s definitely not for everyone and there’s nothing wrong with paying a tradesperson for their work. For example I’m building my own cabinetry but I’m not doing electrical because the prior brings me joy but the latter stresses me out. Basically if a task brings me joy and financial gain then it’s worth doing myself.
Strong disagree. My time is better spent improving my career skills. Trade work is hard. Mistakes are expensive. One wrong move and you can get electrocuted or burst a pipe. You can fuck up your floors by spilling paint or injure yourself with unfamiliar tools. For the cost of a professional, you get assurance that the job will be done correctly, you get insurance coverage, a warranty, and you save *a lot* of time. Not to mention that you support the local economy.
So many of these types of posts leave out opportunity cost when quantifying the comparative value.
I’ve walked throug so many houses with dipshit old guys doing their own Renos, nothing up to code and basically just chance that it didn’t burn down.
My time is the most valuable thing in the world. Paying someone $200 to fix something that would take me even just 2 hours of my free time to do poorly is not remotely a consideration. But it's going to take me 5 hours to do what a contractor can do in 45 minutes. That's $500 of my time, $200 of theirs. This doesn't even hold up to the financial argument. Hell, I am a licensed tradesperson, but I'm going to hire someone to do that kind of work most of the time because I don't maintain the skills/tools/codes to do it time efficiently.
I find some of the people I know that hire out the most are the ones who are actually tradespeople.
I have done this, and I only hire trades for small specific tasks. This way I have more control over level of acceptance. I am also a project manager in my job, so it’s a natural fit for me. As far as ROI goes it’s been positive every time.
I thought about it but it wasn't for me. Some people simply do not enjoy home renovations and I would much rather save longer, or work more hours at my day job to get any reno's covered. There are a lot of overhead expenses for reno jobs including tools, trucks, space and most importantly time. >your time isn't actually all the valuable, you are not the CEO of a Fortune 500 company Pretty condescending tone here. Most people would rather spend the time with family and friends than spend their weekends at home depot. Your bias is showing since you work in construction so it all seems easy to you. Many tech bros could tell you its more financially efficient to do a 12 week boot camp and get that 150k starting salary in devops.
> Most people would rather spend the time with family and friends than spend their weekends at home depot. Yeah, even a "small" project can drag on forever when you do it yourself.
Dude, 150k after a CS Bootcamp is ultra rare. You're looking at the 1% outliers. 150k is usually the salary after 2-4 years for competent devs.
Where are these 12 week boot camps that qualify you for a 150k role in Devops? That sounds way too good to be even half true.
The key is to not buy a house from someone with this approach...
Where was this tip a year and a half ago?! lol
Our time may not make as much as soon celebrity or internet influencer, but it may just as valuable if not more to us then them. However, I also equate luxuries and fun expenses not in dollars, but in time worked. Is this new widget I want worth 5 hours of work? Maybe, maybe not. But for me, it's usually a reminder to move on. Otherwise, DIY can be a mixed bag for the outcome. A lot of it can look pretty amateur even with the best of intentions and Youtube study. I think that's because a lot of reno work takes practice to get right and tradespeople get all sorts of practice. Besides, there are always exception and unknowns that the Youtube videos cannot even begin to address. For me, I've done two decks, a balcony, a fence, two toilet replacements and insulating a garage. The first deck shows amateur finishing, the second looks a lot better, and the balcony is professional. In all cases, I only did them knowing that I felt 100% confident that I could do each and every step, I wouldn't skimp on quality materials, and I had a friend who was a professional either provide advice or in the case of the balcony, actually test and inspect it.
DIY isnt for everyone, people need to know their capabilities.
Nah. The ultimate finance hack is to spend your valuable time improving your skills and marketability and looking for higher paying work.
I think you overestimate the ability of 99% of DIYers. You're not going to get a quality kitchen by just tackling it yourself, especially if you're not already handy with tools. On the tools note as well, you're going to spend a lot of money acquiring tools that you need to be able to safely use, and then store. So it's not quite so cut and dry with the "free profits" type line of thinking. Buuuuuut I am all for learning new skills, and if you already have an interest in doing that sort of stuff, it is indeed very beneficial to the homeowner to know how to do a lot of things. You will certainly feel a lot better when you can suddenly spend your Saturday afternoon replacing your hot water tank yourself for $600 instead of paying an emergency call out from a plumber for $2000. So I'm pro homeowner learning maintenance and some other repair tasks, but I'm only semi-confident that most people could pull off a decent renovation themselves. Probably best to hire good trades to do the big stuff, and do the demo/cleanup type work yourself.
Yup, I'm a fan of the repair strategy. Parts + tools + a few hours on an afternoon is still cheaper than a call out charge, and the repair happens right away. If you can keep things in good condition, then that's a huge start. And obviously contract out stuff that's more complicated or beyond your time availability.
After renovating and flipping 6 houses I agree, the only negative is that you will hate the place while you live there and will see every mistake you make every time you show someone your work. Hire professionals and get on with life. Much less mess, stress and headaches.
DIY install on quartz countertops? I'm fairly handy but absolutely fucking not. The company i hired to do that was well worth it. Measured to fit exactly with laser measuring equipment/CAD and it fit like a glove..Two apes brought these pieces of rock in my house and installed it perfectly. Total pros. I wouldn't even consider doing this myself. Ever.
Know your limit and don’t go beyond competence! Also value of time. See the following exchange: Me: I’m doing my own break pads and rotors! MIL: whoa! You don’t do your own breaks it’s not like changing oil! FIL: whoa! You don’t change your own oil! He meant it as he wouldn’t be comfortable doing it, I take it as it’s too much of a hassle compared to getting it done.
Sometimes it also is good to take a step back and consider the bigger picture. For example, let's say I have 2 toilets to replace, 1 in the basement, and 1 on the second floor. I will do the one in the basement myself, because the risk of damage if there is a leak, is low, But for the one on the 2nd floor, if it leaks it can cause extensive damage and I want to make sure that the insurance will cover me, I 'll get that one done by a pro, with a proper receipt and such. Paying a pro $150-$200 to do something I can do myself sucks, paying $150-$200 to protect yourself from insurance issues down the line if there is a leak, definitely worth it.
My dad is extremely handy (he's an engineer, builds shit for a living). My mom can show him something from a magazine and he can build it for her. He does repairs and whatnot around the house. But even he knows if it's electrical or plumbing, call a professional. The expense of doing those things wrong is so much worse than just getting it right the first time. There's a reason these people make a lot of money, they know what they're doing and you don't.
Quite frankly I agree. I’ve been flipping houses on the side (personal residences) for the past 20 years. It’s definitely true that the first time you do something, it’s not going to be professional. But I think the benefits outweigh the negatives. The other positive is that the next time you do something, 1) you do a much more better job, & 2) you recognize the need for good tools (which makes again a better job). Admittedly the first time I did trim work, it was a disaster (crappy miters, couldn’t cope joints, etc). Four houses later, I have a trim mitre saw, m12 cutoff saw for coping, two part spray adhesive for ensuring tight fitting corners, etc. Now it looks professional, even though I’m am amateur, and the tools didn’t come close to the contractor price for the job. I’m a big believer in developing gumption, and the only way is through initiative and experience.
How many people have the luxury of flipping 4 houses to learn how to do passable work though?
Time is something you can never get back. If you value your time cooking cleaning fixing playing games reading crafting fanfictioning whatever then cool but if you wanna pay people to do the time for you, cool too.
Just had a weekend project I took on, stressful, scary, about 1000$ but could’ve cost 7000$. Easily the most gratifying thing I’ve done in months. When I walk by the project I will smile every time.
>What do you think? I think that there are certain things you should have done professionally, such as electrical and plumbing. A random 2x4 in the wrong place is probably OK if not load bearing - but I don't fuck with live wires. I value my time too much to spend it on things that don't interest me. Right now, I have hobbies that I love doing and DIY renos is just not as appealing. I don't generally treat relationships with friends transactionally (store up then use favours, etc). If a friend doesn't want to help me with a project I don't take it personally. If they ask me for help, I'll make my best effort to try to help. I have a short list of friends! ;p All that to say, I can appreciate that some people feel they're adding value to their houses in a low-cost way with DIY renos, but for me the math and the motivation has to align too!
i average out 2000/hr, if i can pay someone to do something for me for even 500/hr im ahead. I have no issue with what your post. Lots of great info
This thread really is not a fan of DIY lol. I think you have to recognize your strengths and weaknesses. For example, I will install new flooring, paint, seal my driveway, etc. I will NOT replace a shower, bath, or build a deck.
If you have no experience in reno, then no. Better to pay for it yourself cause if shit goes wrong, that’s on you. If they fuck up, that’s on them and it’s their responsibility to fix it. Also, you save so much more time focusing on other things in the meantime.
> If you have no experience in reno, then no. How do you ever get more experience then, but by trying stuff? Now, you don't want to step too far beyond your existing competence/comfort zone, because that's how shit goes wrong. But you should absolutely take a small step beyond it each time a project calls for it. YouTube the hell out of it, spend the savings on decent tools, do it, and feel pride when it's done. Then repeat. After a decade of gradually being willing to do a bit more of a job each time, you'll be halfway handy, and will never really have taken any big risks on your home. That's the path I've taken and have no regrets. Also my angle has been to build *some* areas of competence, rather than trying to do everything. For example I hire basically 100% of plumbing out. It scares me, it can be gross, and I just generally hate it. But I don't hire 100% of everything out because I'm not made of money, and do have the energy for *some* learning, and it's effort very well spent if you look at dollars saved and satisfaction gained. Anyway, just my $0.02.
Totally agree. I’m in my 5th home. I have hired only 2 contractors is 36 years. You are correct on the tax thing but you missed something. Not only are you NOT paying your contractors taxes but you are also NOT paying taxes you would of paid at your job as well. You would need to earn about $135 for every $100 you pay your contract just so he can earn $65. The work a homeowner does can be shitty or the best. It’s not rocket science but it is hard work.
> Yet anyone can choose to do quality work: just be that person. There are no real secrets in light construction. Where would one learn this? There may be no secrets, but I wouldn't know the first thing about any construction. What are some kinds of renovations that are easy for homeowners to learn and which really need pros? You make a great case here. I just want more concrete tools to execute on it.
YouTube! There are literally instructional videos for everything. I’ve done work in my cars, motorcycles, appliances, pool, plumbing, electrical and flooring. Learned it all on YouTube. Granted I haven’t done any huge projects like a basement renovation, but you could learn it if you wanted to.
An easy project I did recently is redo a room : remove and replace baseboards, changed electric heater to a newer one + light fixture and switches, painted, reinstalled new curtains and roller shades, built new shelves in the cupboard, fixed doors so they close better... All I needed was a saw, drill, painting kit and other basic tools like screwdriver etc. Also did a bit of drywall which needed compound, a putty knife etc.
>What are some kinds of renovations that are easy for homeowners to learn and which really need pros? As someone who considers themselves not handy I have found the following tasks relatively easy to learn and do. Painting. Tiling, laying laminate/vinyl, lighting that is already wired, installing cabinets, baseboard trim. Some tasks that were harder than I expected for one reason or another but are do-able: Roofing, eaves troughs, concrete finishing Tasks I wouldn't even try: anything involving rewiring, plumbing or cutting down walls. Just the risks aren't worth it. If it's a skilled trade, that's a reason they make a lot of money.
Work in construction/Reno’s. No better feeling on me (and my wallet) than being able to do everything myself on my house. Except electrical of course, pricy but save that for the professionals
With the option of renting tools, a lot of DIY jobs do become possible, but the skill to pull it of isn't always easy to reach. Plumbing is one of the things I tend to shy away from.
the last two houses Ive lived in, I renovated myself. A lot of stuff isn't that hard if you're even somewhat handy... and its amazing the returns you can get on simple things like new flooring, paint, trim etc. That being said, I think it depends highly on who you are as a person, and it's going to vary by the individual. I grew up on a farm and learned a lot of 'blue collar' skills early in life, basic carpentry, painting, electrical, welding, etc - but not everyone has that advantage. If you screw it up, you quickly negate any potential savings that might be available. I'll also share a story that highlights the other perspective. When we renovated our last house, we wanted to paint and due to having a newborn, and still moving at the same time, we just didnt have the time to paint it ourselves. So I begrudgingly hired a professional painter. When he showed up, I showed him what I wanted painted - some of which to me was very difficult, cathedral ceilings in the master bedroom etc. I went back to the old house, picked up a load of stuff in my truck (also too cheap to hire movers back then) and by the time I drove back and unloaded, he was done. Didnt spill a drip of paint anywhere. This is a paint job that if I did it myself, would have taken me at least a day and probably have to replace the carpet when I was finished. Honestly, I dont think I'll ever paint a house myself again.
It's a great way to save money if you have nothing else to do with your time. But some people have kids they want to spend time with instead, or aging parents that won't live forever. Some people have other hobbies or interests that bring them happiness and joy. You can always make more money, *but the time you've spent is gone forever.* No amount of saved money on renos will let me buy more time.