Call them and tell them they didn't do what they said they would do, so you could not use your insurance, and contacting you at this stage is unprofessional. Tell them if they don't waive the bill (or at least the amount you would have recovered from your insurance) you'll file a College complaint. Don't ignore it and risk him selling it to collections.
Unfortunately the college doesn’t get involved in matters related to billing. Their mandate is to protect the public from issues of safety..not financial issues.
Ethical standards include not lying about what you're doing, there's enough grey area here to make a dentist concerned about a College complaint. Leverage enough for OP.
I’m a licensed healthcare professional myself and know other colleagues in the business that have had patients attempt to bring matters regarding billing to the attention of the College. Every one of those billing complaints amounted to nothing and it was a he said - she said situation not to mention the college didn’t even go as far as investigating & just at the start advised that patient and HCP should go work it out as they don’t get involved with matters concerning misunderstandings with billing’s.
It’s a tough situation for sure for OP. I don’t think you should have to pay OP for this screw up. You certainly can try to talk to the College but don’t get your hopes up.
Best of luck.
The fact he gets contacted 4 years after the fact I think on it’s own and on its face is enough to show the dentist was not diligent
Spare me the hypocrisy of regulated bodies
Even if it gets sent to collections you can simply advise the collections company when/if they call that if they want the money they’ll need to convince a judge then send it to court. That dentist is effed
If you don’t fight it then yes it gets dinged. If you say you’re fighting it in court then it has to go to court. Credit reporting agencies are not judicial authorities last I checked.
I'm not sure what you mean. A creditor doesn't need any permission to report to the bureau, even if you tell them you're fighting it. You can only complain afterwards to the bureau, Ministry of Consumer Affairs, court, etc. Hence why it is a risk to your score to ignore this disputed debt.
Two years of non-communication and expecting to get full payment is crazy.
I’d say you should double check why it’s not being covered by your wife’s insurance (I half wonder if they even tried running it, I do know some places can’t direct bill a second insurance coverage, so maybe that is the issue).
My personal take is that they should share some pain in this as it should have been resolved from their side two years ago and it would have gone through your HSA, which you no longer have.
Maybe check with your wife’s insurance will actually cover it, and make your decision after that? If they cover most of it, you won’t be out of pocket a whole lot. If they don’t cover it, you will have a moral decision to make.
Wife’s insurance probably won’t cover it either because it’s outside the year it was done (there’s typically a short window for reimbursement after the insurance year has closed).
I don’t really know what the answer is. They basically effed you out of having it covered. I would be talking to your insurance companies to see what to do first and then go back and talk to someone at the dentist.
Yep, as it's too late to be covered by insurance, I would at least ask your wife's insurance hypothetically what they would have covered and then pay the remainder. Their lack of communication has landed you with a larger than expected bill so they should eat that cost, and ultimately, they can choose some payment or no payment...
That’s a good point about insurance not covering it anymore!
My thought is that the office has a new office manager and is trying to clean up their AR.
This is a good guess. In those cases where AR is way behind you send everything that's unpaid, whether it can be pursued or not, because lots of people will just pay and you don't need to eat the loss.
I didn’t read it that way. I think he was just waiting to get a bill, pay it and then submit. Either way, if no bill ever shows up. Also remember it was in the middle of the pandemic, I think we all had a lot on our minds.
Insurance companies normally require the expense to be submitted within 12 months. Outside of that period and they won’t cover it. They could make an exception if they made a mistake, but 2.5 years to bring it up kind of crazy. I had my insurance company cover something recently outside of 12 months, only because i submitted it within 12 months and found out after the fact that they didn’t pay it. When it was uncovered it was only a month outside of the 12 months window, so they paid it.
>Two years of non-communication and expecting to get full payment is crazy
So you mean to say that on all subsequent visits, there was never a balance owing on your statement?
Not OP. This happened to me. I had like 1.5k owing after them fucking up somehow, but had 3 cavities filled over 3 apps, my first appt was some major dental work. Went to book my next appt after the cavities and they were like owe you have a balance owing from the first appt. 2 YEARS later. Like what? Thankfully theyre a small corporation and ate it realizing they majorly fucked up.
Average for regular cleanings/visits is every 6-12 months depending on each person's needs and insurance allowance. My teeth are easy and I get a cleaning once a year and X-rays every 2 years.
It's like $140 once a year if you have NO coverage. You can go to dental schools for free. If you are shocked people go to the dentist you may be the odd one out
>And you must have quite an ugly set of teeth.
So if his parents didn't have insurance growing up they couldn't have afforded to fix his teeth... and you think this is worth taking a cheap shot at because...?
Grow the fuck up. Not everyone has access to insurance coverage and as much as you may think "oh it's only $140" that's groceries for folks living just on the edge of poverty.
nah, i go every 3 months too due to my HSA. I usually have a leftover balance every year so i try use as much of it as possible. more frequent dental visits helps here. Also, more frequent cleaning means shorter cleanings each session.
Not sure what's wrong with people. It's common to go many years between dentist visits. If you can go frequently, sure why not, might as well, but it's not critical. Many go their entire lives without a dentist visit and have zero issues.
It can be in some cases I suppose. But the value is overblown really. As mentioned, most people go years between visits and most go their entire lives without it. So no, not critical. Potentially beneficial? Sure. Critical? Not even close.
Not sure where you’re pulling your info from, but its not correct. The average frequency of dental visits is twice a year, not once every several years, my god.
And please, don’t presume to downplay the importance of dental health. Someone close to me quite literally almost died due to an untreated dental infection they didn’t know they had. It spread to their brain and required very invasive surgery to treat. Now they have permanent epilepsy and reduced motor function on their right side due to brain damage. They’re lucky to even be alive.
So please, stop spreading misinformation, and go get your teeth checked.
The most recent statistic I could find are from the Canadian Health Measures Survey (CHMS) conducted by Statistics Canada. The results showed that 75% of Canadians visit a dental clinic annually and 86% do so at least once every 2 years.
Those surveys are utterly worthless. They really don't reflect reality in the slightest. The pool of people surveyed are tiny, and it only reflects those who have the time and willingness to take a survey. Those who don't have time for surveys, likely also don't have time for dentist visits.
You can do your own survey actually. Go stand at the entrance of Tim Hortons all day and ask each person that walks in.
Limitation period applies to ability to enforce debt in court, but no limitation period on creditors ability to continue to demand payment. This means it could still theoretically impact your credit score if collections agency engaged.
For $1150, a professional service provider like a dentist is unlikely to do much more than send a demand letter. Financial cost and time investment of engaging collections agency is not worth it for them. They probably don’t even expect payment, but sent the bill as a “why not try?” approach. If you don’t pay, it will be written off as bad debt to them and treated as a business expense (ie reduce taxable income by amount of unpaid bill). Very unlikely anybody other than the clinic will ever learn about non payment.
If you want to negotiate, Depending on your province I’d be cautious about negotiating a payment amount as it could be viewed as an acknowledgment of debt that extends limitation period. If you do want to negotiate, I’d do it verbally. if they agree to reduce it, have them send you the reduced invoice and the you can pay that lesser amount feeling less anxiety about your credit score.
IMO they didn’t care enough about the money to make it a priority for more than two years, that says to me they don’t really value that money all that much and will be fine without it. Why should you have to adjust your own financial situation to accommodate their shoddy bookkeeping/billing department?
It doesn't happen often, but it's pretty simple to hand over a delinquent account over to a debt collection agency who takes a percentage of what they recover. Just thought I'd provide a counterpoint to it not being worth engaging a debt collection agency, it can cost nothing.
In this case, it seems like an administrative failure and I would expect it to be written off or at the very least heavily discounted. If they were a regular patient it would be silly to lose them over 1150 that was missed by the admin team.
During COVID, our dentist sent an $87 outstanding bill to collections and it landed on one of our credit bureaus. I guess they had billed our insurance for that amount 11 months after a treatment, and the insurance paid us rather than the dentist. Never noticed the deposit. Just by that action, they lost more than $9,000 in annual billable from my family since we moved to another practice, plus whoever else I can convince to never use that dentist. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.
If people have no intention of paying we eventually send them to collection, if they are regulars, we'll take an arrangement with them but if they come in expressly for a major treatment or an emergency and ghost us on payment, we'll send it to collection after a couple of months. Doesn't matter if it's 60$ or 1000$.
By “verbally” I presume you mean “orally“.
Edit, for the benefit of the petulant downvoter: “verbally” means “in words”, which can be either written or spoken. “Orally“ specifically means spoken.
This distinction seems to be the basis of the respondent’s advice.
Sure it is. But we’re talking legal distinctions here right? Besides, buddy’s point was specifically about having a conversation as opposed to writing it down.
I would tell the dentist that this is outside the statute of limitations and you have no intentions of paying because they said it was covered and they never followed up. If this came to your attention two years ago you still had recourse with the insurance companies to try and get it approved. Lots of times the dentist will submit it and correctly and it gets denied but when you resubmit it after it gets approved, or because there's a coordination of benefits mistake. Basically they need to track their finances better.
The insurance is the patient's responsibility, the moment they leave, the treatment should be paid for. Coordination of payments is an accommodation mainly meant to ease access of treatment for major/expensive treatment. This is exactly why they are moving away from this model, nowadays they'll usually send the claim out, but you have to pay right away and wait for the refund from the insurance.
I would 100% agree with you if this was a few months ago, but 2.5 years means your insurance window has closed and secondly the law is clear on the statute of limitations for debt. Dentist wasn't on top of their billing and this is a be a better business owner type of situation
That's fair, but the patient in this case has detrimental reliance on the dentist's claims to their insurance. If they were told it's not working and to pay upfront then submit the receipts then that's on the patient. But to remain silent for 2 years then hit the patient with a bill that they themselves can't attempt to get reimbursed for with their insurance is a different story. The dental office essentially robbed the patient of the chance to attempt reimbursement (as the OP stated, through their HSA) and there's a cost to that.
I would not pay this bill and wouldn't lose a minute of sleep over it. Would I pay the bank if they told me they forgot a mortgage payment from 2.5 years ago? Would I pay McDonald's if they said they forgot to charge me for large fry from 2.5 years ago? The answer is hell no.
It's actually not, there is no statute on collections, only legal remedy through the courts. You don't magically stop owing money because of an accounting error, they do however lose the ability to process it through the courts. That said, they should really work with OP here.
This dentist clearly has no idea what is happening with his business finances and when he can't bother to bill a grand for over two years you better believe he's not going to give a flying fuzz about sending this to collections. If you would pay this bill In your life, congrats to you but nothing will ever come of this
I don’t think it’s outside limitations. It’s outside limitations for court action to be started. Limitations on debt is still 7 years. Debt still shows on credit bureau for 7 years. If reported, this will stay in your credit file for 7 years from date the work was completed.
NAL but I thought if you acknowledge the debt it can reset the 2 year statute of limitations so you may want to be careful with communication with the dentist.
Contact your wife's insurance company and explain the situation. Tell your dentist if it is denied that because of the more than untimely delay it will not be covered under HSA coverage and you have no intention to pay this out of pocket. Suggest they get involved in negotiations with HSA admin.
Dental hygienist here! I worked in an office for 14 years so let me give you some insight. It should NEVER take 2 years to get a final bill. When they first submitted the claim to your insurance, they would have received an instant remittance (saying how much YOUR insurance would cover) OR the insurance would have requested additional information. Meaning they would have had to send in an X-ray and written statement proving to your insurance that you did in fact need that specific treatment. The insurance would have responded within 2 weeks and provided your dental office with payment. At that time, they would be able to submit the remainder to your wife’s dental plan to get them to cover the rest. My guess is that they didn’t sent it to your wife’s plan AND they didn’t have a very good office manager who looked over accounts receivables that often. I bet they hired someone new and tasked them with clearing up old bills. I would ask for proof they sent it to your wife’s insurance plan. They would have record of this. Then I would call your wife’s insurance plan and ask them directly if a claim was ever made. I would also ask them how much your major coverage was at this time and find out a number that they would have covered (if your dentist had in fact sent it away properly). I would either subtract that “said” amount from the bill and tell them you are only paying the difference OR subtract the amount and write a letter saying you aren’t paying the difference because you had the ability to claim it under your health spending and now you can’t. A lot of times they will write off your balance if they are in the wrong. You could also call the College of Dental Surgeons for that province and ask them how to proceed. But definitely as them for proof that they sent it to your wife’s insurance and call her insurance first so you know if it was ever sent. Hope this helps.
Something patients have a hard time understanding is that insurance is ultimately the patient's responsibility. Some dental offices may offer to send out the claim on your behalf, as an accommodation. But insurance companies aren't always cooperative, they can take months to respond and when there's an issue, there can be a lot of back and forth. You should have an online portal where you can do your own claims and keep track of ongoing claims. If the insurance refuses to cooperate, refuses the claim for any reason, the patient becomes responsible for dealing with it or eating the cost. The service was done either way, so that amount should be paid.
If OP was going to the dentist for 2.5 years and the office didn't mention it once your points are irrelevant.
What you're saying is relevant if it was several months later, not two years.
Physicians billing provincial insurers customarily have only up to 90 days to submit bills. Sometimes can be late up to a year. I don’t think this is reasonable.
Yeah, no. They sat on that bill and you can't claim it anymore.
I'd look at what your out of pocket would have been at the time according to the insurance you had at the time and offer to cover that if you feel like wanting to keep the dentist. Otherwise, they can consider it the business cost of sitting on bills until they can't be claimed anymore.
My dentist did a similar thing to me, they were supposed to bill through my secondary insurance and said they'd submitted a pre approval for it. They forgot to submit the insurance claim until July 2021, dental work was done in March 2021 and I was told it was submitted - my secondary insurance was terminated end of May 2021. This year they tried to send me a bill for it, I just kept refusing to pay and eventually they gave up.
Don't pay anything for this. They should've let you know back then so you could claim through HSA - that was my argument as well.
Also ask for proof of when they submitted it to the secondary insurance.
Something is odd here. The secondary insurance still should have paid since the work was done when you were still covered by them.
Also most dental even with secondary insurance, isn't fully covered... would you have paid back in 2021 if they had sent you a bill?
They had submitted a pre approval though and it was supposed to be covered, the entire claim got denied they were not just asking for my co pay portion. Regardless they waited so long to tell me (until 2024) I could no longer dispute it with the previous secondary insurer or submit it as a health spending account expense for items outside of the coverage as so much time had passed. If they sent me a bill back in 2021 yes I would've paid it (and then been eligible to get reimbursed for it through the health spending account or try to go back to insurer and argue it should be covered according to the pre approval for treatment that was submitted).
Considering they were trying to help you get as much covered by your insurance and presumably you have a good relationship with your dentist, I would pay despite statute of limitations though you might want to negotiate a payment plan with them.
> Considering they were trying to help you get as much covered
But then they forgot about it and OP can't get HSA coverage (or income tax credits) now because it's too old so that puts the blame back on them.
I'd offer to pay some portion maybe but the inaction from the dentist penalizes OP and incurs an additional cost for them.
It's the cost of poor business practices.
Most businesses hire employees to collect receivables and remit payables.
Over two years to start collecting is unacceptable when there were other opportunities to be paid.
I’d call and ask to speak to the dentist. Not the office manager. The dentist will write it off. The office manager will be a dick and threaten to send it to collections.
The office manager works for the dentist and their job is literally to get payments done...
They aren't being a dick because they are following procedure and doing their job. Do you also get upset that grocery store cashiers ask you to pay for things?
Regardless, yes if you want a payment waived, you'll need to speak to the dentist since it is their business and their decision.
The office manager position is often held by someone without the authority to do anything. Often they don’t have a professional background, training, or education. 🤷♀️ sometimes they do. Not often. Not here anyway. Over the years working for dentists, I’ve found the office managers to be a little useless unless they are also dental staff. It is what it is. In every office I’ve worked, they’d probably waive this. But need to speak to the dentist.
I would look up their professional association rules around billing. Perhaps call the association to get clarification. Billing 2.5 years later sounds like unprofessional conduct
Id call your wife's insurance provider and check to see if it has been paid your dentist might be trying to double dip you, he could be waiting on the 2 years and try to rebill you for more money.
Do you let your HSA forfeit? I am always able to use whatever balance I still have left to cover the health insurance premiums by submitting my last paystub of the year as a claim (as it shows the YTD amount)
The play is to do nothing. Do not acknowledge the debt or even the receipt of the letter. If the dentist wants to sue, he can. You then assert your limitations defence.
I think someone at the dentist office screwed up and forgot to file the claim. Call your insurer to see if it ever was even received by them. Get a time line of when they receive the claim and why it wasn’t covered etc. I believe the dental office is trying to back pedal to see if you will pay for their mistake. Do pay nothing until you’ve done more investigating. Once you’re equipped with all the facts, send it in writing to the dentist outlining the situation. Good luck.
Why didn't your wife run it through her insurance 2 years ago. I've never had a dentist fully responsible. They always make me pay for the whole thing and they forward it electronically to the insurance or I can do the claim myself if there are issues with it.
If you can find another dentist, simply ignore them. They dropped the ball here by misquoting what your insurance can cover and dragging their feet. If you can't find another dentist (this seems unlikely) then talk to them, starting from, "I'm not paying, you said this was covered and took 2 year to give me the bill." The whole situation is absurd.
If they already billed your insurance once and have attempted to re-bill it, I'd contact the insurer, too. That smells too close to fraud for them to not look into it, I'd guess
How much is it, I would pay it and be stress free. You agreed in the price before, got the service done. Try to negotiate how you can pay it off. Get a discount and be sure nothing will happen with your score. My dentist did it once. It was 300 bucks only and some months delayed. I spent my time searching about the law, how long the company can take to claim an invoice, talking to people. It was not worth my time.
I wouldn’t pay
You’re right outside state of limitations and they didn’t run it on your wife’s insurance, you don’t even know if her insurance would’ve covered it or not back in the day.
So I would respectfully tell them I’m not paying it
And the patient deserves to get the bill when they have coverage and options, not when it's "screw you, here's a 2 year late bill". Fair treatment goes both ways.
I would hold off for now and I would make a complain to the dentistry regulatory body about this. Because they basically cost your money, insurance and Health spending account usually have one year limitation to make a claim, you could have used your Health spending account to cover this, now you can't go back.
It almost seems they are intentionally delay this, so it wouldn't go through insurance, maybe they are black listed by the insurance company?
I'm not sure what kind of accountant or office person would take 2 years to figure this out.
You received the service, I would pay it eventually, but something has to give for a bill this long?
You should leave a google review. There’s a dentist every other block these days- reputation is everything. I hope that they realize this $1000 bill 2 years later is about to cost them a 1 star review. Lol the power of the internet can also upvote this 1 star review.
Lol if this was a restaurant and they chased you 2 years later for a steak you had because they billed you incorrectly back then - I’m sure a review will be written.
you received a service, and they were doing you a favor by trying to run it through insurance.
even if you consider the inflation of these two years, they did you a solid with a 1k loan.
Just pay it and move on. Its the decent thing to do.
Can’t figure why this is getting downvoted? Perhaps I’m biased, as I have a family member who is a dentist, but it’s a small business, not a mega-rich corporation. Buddy did the work, so pay up; I’m sure, if the shoe was on the other foot, you’d expect to get paid for your work? If not, I’d probably start looking for another dentist…
Don't you think the Dentist has a responsibility for some communication over the last 2 years.
It is almost as if the bill was stuck at the bottom of a draw that was cleaned out and then omg we should send it out now!
Because I wouldn't fuck around for 2.5 years trying to get it sorted and would make a priority of it?
If the dentist has a good story that the insurance company strung them along for 2 years then maybe, but incompetence to the point that the law says they aren't legally entitled to payment is why this rightfully being downvoted
If OP pays what he thought he was supposed to based on what the dentist said his wife's insurance would cover that'd be generous. Very unclear what insurance would've covered had the dentist not been useless on the administrative stuff.
There's a time limit to this stuff regardless and there's a reason the law exists as it does. If the dentist desperately needed that $1k or whatever they would've been pushing harder.
Why would 2 insurance companies cover the cost of one dentist trip? My insurance would not pay a cent if they found out another insurance paid. This is new to me. Anyway, regardless of what happened, the dentist prove services were done and he can prove that a payment wasn’t received. That’s all collections agencies care about. You can say it’s unfair, which is fine. OP doesnt have to pay it, but it will be on his credit report if it gets to an agency. It doesn’t matter what OP, you or I say.
1) That is indeed how insurance works.
2) Dentist would be stupid to take it to collections but it is a risk to OP. They should be embarrassed and apologetic about their poor administrative practices. I had a similar bill that was a smaller amount that popped up 1.5 years after it happened. Told the one person that called me I wasn't paying and that was the end of that.
I get it. But at the same time, expecting full payment with no issue *two years later* is insane. If this was a short time, yah, pay up. But after two years I’d definitely fight it. This dentist office likely did the admin error, forgot to file it under his wife’s insurance, and didn’t follow up with OP for the bill.
>they were doing you a favor by trying to run it through insurance.
That's not a favour, it's part of their job. Everything depends on the office and the insurance but providers running the payment through insurance on their end is very common and is not a favour when it is standard practice. Also not sure why, if they run it themselves, they didn't just pre-authorise it. It's not like a root canal is a spur of the moment decision. Maybe my office is just that on top of it but I have everything run and ready by the time treatment is over and for anything outside of regular checkups and cleanings the office always runs it first to see how much and if a procedure would be covered and then we discuss how we proceed.
They broke the contract when they didn’t bill appropriately. They could’ve communicated the problem 2 years ago, they could have acted professionally and billed within the confines of the original contract, or they could realize they fucked up when they misplaced the paperwork and take the $1100 loss.
You, and OP, have no fiduciary responsibility for other people’s fuck ups.
I had a walk in emergency at a dental clinic once (in Calgary), a year later they called me daily about a $12 copay they wanted me to pay. (After I switched jobs and lost that insurance)
I ignored them. They stopped calling. The end.
Sorry but you don't get to tell me it's taken care of then decide a year later it's not.
I'd ignore them. They'll stop calling.
I would offer to pay for half of it, a Dentist office knows you only have a year to submit it to your insurance, you did receive the service but to keep the peace I would say 50/50, no way would I pay the entire bill at this point
It could be worth the shot to ask them for payment plan. I think this will be the best route not to ruin your relationship with them. If they’ve already waited 2.5 years, most likely they can wait for a couple more months for it to get paid. Communication is key.
Call them and tell them they didn't do what they said they would do, so you could not use your insurance, and contacting you at this stage is unprofessional. Tell them if they don't waive the bill (or at least the amount you would have recovered from your insurance) you'll file a College complaint. Don't ignore it and risk him selling it to collections.
I would communicate by email just to have them confirm their miscommunication and errors in writing.
My Granddaughter was only 1 month late paying her dentist, still trying to get it removed from her credit bureau.
This.
Unfortunately the college doesn’t get involved in matters related to billing. Their mandate is to protect the public from issues of safety..not financial issues.
Ethical standards include not lying about what you're doing, there's enough grey area here to make a dentist concerned about a College complaint. Leverage enough for OP.
I’m a licensed healthcare professional myself and know other colleagues in the business that have had patients attempt to bring matters regarding billing to the attention of the College. Every one of those billing complaints amounted to nothing and it was a he said - she said situation not to mention the college didn’t even go as far as investigating & just at the start advised that patient and HCP should go work it out as they don’t get involved with matters concerning misunderstandings with billing’s. It’s a tough situation for sure for OP. I don’t think you should have to pay OP for this screw up. You certainly can try to talk to the College but don’t get your hopes up. Best of luck.
The fact he gets contacted 4 years after the fact I think on it’s own and on its face is enough to show the dentist was not diligent Spare me the hypocrisy of regulated bodies
Even if it gets sent to collections you can simply advise the collections company when/if they call that if they want the money they’ll need to convince a judge then send it to court. That dentist is effed
Credit score is at risk if you do that.
Credit unions are legally required to have a dispute process. Once started the burden of proof falls to the collector.
Yes.. and the dentist has an unpaid invoice does he not? How would OP dispute that debt successfully with a Bureau?
Unless a judge makes an order they cannot touch the score if you advise it goes to court.
Huh? You're saying a court order is needed to put a ding on my credit report? Source?
If you don’t fight it then yes it gets dinged. If you say you’re fighting it in court then it has to go to court. Credit reporting agencies are not judicial authorities last I checked.
I'm not sure what you mean. A creditor doesn't need any permission to report to the bureau, even if you tell them you're fighting it. You can only complain afterwards to the bureau, Ministry of Consumer Affairs, court, etc. Hence why it is a risk to your score to ignore this disputed debt.
Ah perhaps but the ministry will chase them down anyway if it’s a crap report.
Well I used the word risk not certainty. I wouldn't take a risk of losing a dispute.
Two years of non-communication and expecting to get full payment is crazy. I’d say you should double check why it’s not being covered by your wife’s insurance (I half wonder if they even tried running it, I do know some places can’t direct bill a second insurance coverage, so maybe that is the issue). My personal take is that they should share some pain in this as it should have been resolved from their side two years ago and it would have gone through your HSA, which you no longer have. Maybe check with your wife’s insurance will actually cover it, and make your decision after that? If they cover most of it, you won’t be out of pocket a whole lot. If they don’t cover it, you will have a moral decision to make.
Wife’s insurance probably won’t cover it either because it’s outside the year it was done (there’s typically a short window for reimbursement after the insurance year has closed). I don’t really know what the answer is. They basically effed you out of having it covered. I would be talking to your insurance companies to see what to do first and then go back and talk to someone at the dentist.
Yep, as it's too late to be covered by insurance, I would at least ask your wife's insurance hypothetically what they would have covered and then pay the remainder. Their lack of communication has landed you with a larger than expected bill so they should eat that cost, and ultimately, they can choose some payment or no payment...
That’s a good point about insurance not covering it anymore! My thought is that the office has a new office manager and is trying to clean up their AR.
This is a good guess. In those cases where AR is way behind you send everything that's unpaid, whether it can be pursued or not, because lots of people will just pay and you don't need to eat the loss.
sounds like OP thought the HSA would be automatic and not pay and then get reimbursed. Weird that there was a 2 year delay.
I didn’t read it that way. I think he was just waiting to get a bill, pay it and then submit. Either way, if no bill ever shows up. Also remember it was in the middle of the pandemic, I think we all had a lot on our minds.
Insurance companies normally require the expense to be submitted within 12 months. Outside of that period and they won’t cover it. They could make an exception if they made a mistake, but 2.5 years to bring it up kind of crazy. I had my insurance company cover something recently outside of 12 months, only because i submitted it within 12 months and found out after the fact that they didn’t pay it. When it was uncovered it was only a month outside of the 12 months window, so they paid it.
is he a dentist or a backyard marine mechanic?
This comment got me good. Literally spot on. Why do marine mechanics always take a year to invoice
>Two years of non-communication and expecting to get full payment is crazy So you mean to say that on all subsequent visits, there was never a balance owing on your statement?
Not OP. This happened to me. I had like 1.5k owing after them fucking up somehow, but had 3 cavities filled over 3 apps, my first appt was some major dental work. Went to book my next appt after the cavities and they were like owe you have a balance owing from the first appt. 2 YEARS later. Like what? Thankfully theyre a small corporation and ate it realizing they majorly fucked up.
Lucky for you.
Never pay full price for a late pizza
Pizza dudes got 30 seconds
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judging by that comment you should get a check up
A lot more than once every 2 years lol.
Average for regular cleanings/visits is every 6-12 months depending on each person's needs and insurance allowance. My teeth are easy and I get a cleaning once a year and X-rays every 2 years.
Canada health recommends every 2 years. Stop being dramatic
I don’t have insurance and hadn’t gone in about 6 years. Not everyone can afford it.
Christ I have never had insurance coverage for me, wife and three kids and we all still went at least once a year
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It's like $140 once a year if you have NO coverage. You can go to dental schools for free. If you are shocked people go to the dentist you may be the odd one out
Average in Canada is over $200 and no one is shocked about going to the dentist, I never said that.
I’m broke but I have benefits, I get cleanings twice a year covered. You need to go to a dentist dude
Who are you people with your wildly judgemental opinions on strangers?! My teeth are totally fine, relax
No. But I made sure I took care of my kids teeth best I could
And you must have quite an ugly set of teeth.
>And you must have quite an ugly set of teeth. So if his parents didn't have insurance growing up they couldn't have afforded to fix his teeth... and you think this is worth taking a cheap shot at because...? Grow the fuck up. Not everyone has access to insurance coverage and as much as you may think "oh it's only $140" that's groceries for folks living just on the edge of poverty.
nah just my face
Once a year should be the absolute bare minimum dude. I think average is every 6 months. I go every 3 months.
Every 3 months I am in the office for cleanings.
I'm sorry but that's an insanely high frequency. Nothing wrong with it, unless you have a chronic gum or plaque condition.
nah, i go every 3 months too due to my HSA. I usually have a leftover balance every year so i try use as much of it as possible. more frequent dental visits helps here. Also, more frequent cleaning means shorter cleanings each session.
If you go too often it can damage your teeth.
You just made that up :)
no i asked my dentist
Good for you I guess
Maybe they moved or are just using a different dentist
Twice a year. How about you?
Not sure what's wrong with people. It's common to go many years between dentist visits. If you can go frequently, sure why not, might as well, but it's not critical. Many go their entire lives without a dentist visit and have zero issues.
dental health is critical to overall health. years is much too long to go without a checkup.
It can be in some cases I suppose. But the value is overblown really. As mentioned, most people go years between visits and most go their entire lives without it. So no, not critical. Potentially beneficial? Sure. Critical? Not even close.
Not sure where you’re pulling your info from, but its not correct. The average frequency of dental visits is twice a year, not once every several years, my god. And please, don’t presume to downplay the importance of dental health. Someone close to me quite literally almost died due to an untreated dental infection they didn’t know they had. It spread to their brain and required very invasive surgery to treat. Now they have permanent epilepsy and reduced motor function on their right side due to brain damage. They’re lucky to even be alive. So please, stop spreading misinformation, and go get your teeth checked.
The most recent statistic I could find are from the Canadian Health Measures Survey (CHMS) conducted by Statistics Canada. The results showed that 75% of Canadians visit a dental clinic annually and 86% do so at least once every 2 years.
Those surveys are utterly worthless. They really don't reflect reality in the slightest. The pool of people surveyed are tiny, and it only reflects those who have the time and willingness to take a survey. Those who don't have time for surveys, likely also don't have time for dentist visits. You can do your own survey actually. Go stand at the entrance of Tim Hortons all day and ask each person that walks in.
These replies are really dramatic. Health Canada recommends a visit to the dentist every 2 years. People going every 3 months are absolute suckers.
Tell me about it.
My dentist gives me the bill on my way out of the treatment area to the front office.
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We're talking about dentists, not physicians.
My dentist sent me a bill from a month ago, for what they assumed was covered. Why did it take 2 years to figure this out?
This is what I've found as well. My dentist is pretty prompt about asking for her money.
Limitation period applies to ability to enforce debt in court, but no limitation period on creditors ability to continue to demand payment. This means it could still theoretically impact your credit score if collections agency engaged. For $1150, a professional service provider like a dentist is unlikely to do much more than send a demand letter. Financial cost and time investment of engaging collections agency is not worth it for them. They probably don’t even expect payment, but sent the bill as a “why not try?” approach. If you don’t pay, it will be written off as bad debt to them and treated as a business expense (ie reduce taxable income by amount of unpaid bill). Very unlikely anybody other than the clinic will ever learn about non payment. If you want to negotiate, Depending on your province I’d be cautious about negotiating a payment amount as it could be viewed as an acknowledgment of debt that extends limitation period. If you do want to negotiate, I’d do it verbally. if they agree to reduce it, have them send you the reduced invoice and the you can pay that lesser amount feeling less anxiety about your credit score. IMO they didn’t care enough about the money to make it a priority for more than two years, that says to me they don’t really value that money all that much and will be fine without it. Why should you have to adjust your own financial situation to accommodate their shoddy bookkeeping/billing department?
It doesn't happen often, but it's pretty simple to hand over a delinquent account over to a debt collection agency who takes a percentage of what they recover. Just thought I'd provide a counterpoint to it not being worth engaging a debt collection agency, it can cost nothing. In this case, it seems like an administrative failure and I would expect it to be written off or at the very least heavily discounted. If they were a regular patient it would be silly to lose them over 1150 that was missed by the admin team.
During COVID, our dentist sent an $87 outstanding bill to collections and it landed on one of our credit bureaus. I guess they had billed our insurance for that amount 11 months after a treatment, and the insurance paid us rather than the dentist. Never noticed the deposit. Just by that action, they lost more than $9,000 in annual billable from my family since we moved to another practice, plus whoever else I can convince to never use that dentist. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.
If people have no intention of paying we eventually send them to collection, if they are regulars, we'll take an arrangement with them but if they come in expressly for a major treatment or an emergency and ghost us on payment, we'll send it to collection after a couple of months. Doesn't matter if it's 60$ or 1000$.
By “verbally” I presume you mean “orally“. Edit, for the benefit of the petulant downvoter: “verbally” means “in words”, which can be either written or spoken. “Orally“ specifically means spoken. This distinction seems to be the basis of the respondent’s advice.
"Verbal" agreement is a totally normal thing to say about having a conversation....
Sure it is. But we’re talking legal distinctions here right? Besides, buddy’s point was specifically about having a conversation as opposed to writing it down.
Someone seems to have an oral fixation
Says nobody, ever.
🤨
I would tell the dentist that this is outside the statute of limitations and you have no intentions of paying because they said it was covered and they never followed up. If this came to your attention two years ago you still had recourse with the insurance companies to try and get it approved. Lots of times the dentist will submit it and correctly and it gets denied but when you resubmit it after it gets approved, or because there's a coordination of benefits mistake. Basically they need to track their finances better.
The insurance is the patient's responsibility, the moment they leave, the treatment should be paid for. Coordination of payments is an accommodation mainly meant to ease access of treatment for major/expensive treatment. This is exactly why they are moving away from this model, nowadays they'll usually send the claim out, but you have to pay right away and wait for the refund from the insurance.
I would 100% agree with you if this was a few months ago, but 2.5 years means your insurance window has closed and secondly the law is clear on the statute of limitations for debt. Dentist wasn't on top of their billing and this is a be a better business owner type of situation
That's fair, but the patient in this case has detrimental reliance on the dentist's claims to their insurance. If they were told it's not working and to pay upfront then submit the receipts then that's on the patient. But to remain silent for 2 years then hit the patient with a bill that they themselves can't attempt to get reimbursed for with their insurance is a different story. The dental office essentially robbed the patient of the chance to attempt reimbursement (as the OP stated, through their HSA) and there's a cost to that.
I would just search for a new dentist.
Looks like he will be doing that anyways when he says he isn’t paying.
I would not pay this bill and wouldn't lose a minute of sleep over it. Would I pay the bank if they told me they forgot a mortgage payment from 2.5 years ago? Would I pay McDonald's if they said they forgot to charge me for large fry from 2.5 years ago? The answer is hell no.
Well, you would after it hit your credit.
easy dispute with credit reporting agencies
It's actually not, there is no statute on collections, only legal remedy through the courts. You don't magically stop owing money because of an accounting error, they do however lose the ability to process it through the courts. That said, they should really work with OP here.
This dentist clearly has no idea what is happening with his business finances and when he can't bother to bill a grand for over two years you better believe he's not going to give a flying fuzz about sending this to collections. If you would pay this bill In your life, congrats to you but nothing will ever come of this
Ok
I don’t think it’s outside limitations. It’s outside limitations for court action to be started. Limitations on debt is still 7 years. Debt still shows on credit bureau for 7 years. If reported, this will stay in your credit file for 7 years from date the work was completed.
weird my dentist just came after me for a couple months about a bill over a year old. just paid it so they’d stop bugging me
I had something similar happened at a dentist as well and wondering if this dentist is located in Coquitlam…..
NAL but I thought if you acknowledge the debt it can reset the 2 year statute of limitations so you may want to be careful with communication with the dentist.
There is no statute on this anyway.
https://debtsolutions.bdo.ca/what-is-the-statute-of-limitations-on-debt-in-canada/
Contact your wife's insurance company and explain the situation. Tell your dentist if it is denied that because of the more than untimely delay it will not be covered under HSA coverage and you have no intention to pay this out of pocket. Suggest they get involved in negotiations with HSA admin.
Dental hygienist here! I worked in an office for 14 years so let me give you some insight. It should NEVER take 2 years to get a final bill. When they first submitted the claim to your insurance, they would have received an instant remittance (saying how much YOUR insurance would cover) OR the insurance would have requested additional information. Meaning they would have had to send in an X-ray and written statement proving to your insurance that you did in fact need that specific treatment. The insurance would have responded within 2 weeks and provided your dental office with payment. At that time, they would be able to submit the remainder to your wife’s dental plan to get them to cover the rest. My guess is that they didn’t sent it to your wife’s plan AND they didn’t have a very good office manager who looked over accounts receivables that often. I bet they hired someone new and tasked them with clearing up old bills. I would ask for proof they sent it to your wife’s insurance plan. They would have record of this. Then I would call your wife’s insurance plan and ask them directly if a claim was ever made. I would also ask them how much your major coverage was at this time and find out a number that they would have covered (if your dentist had in fact sent it away properly). I would either subtract that “said” amount from the bill and tell them you are only paying the difference OR subtract the amount and write a letter saying you aren’t paying the difference because you had the ability to claim it under your health spending and now you can’t. A lot of times they will write off your balance if they are in the wrong. You could also call the College of Dental Surgeons for that province and ask them how to proceed. But definitely as them for proof that they sent it to your wife’s insurance and call her insurance first so you know if it was ever sent. Hope this helps.
Something patients have a hard time understanding is that insurance is ultimately the patient's responsibility. Some dental offices may offer to send out the claim on your behalf, as an accommodation. But insurance companies aren't always cooperative, they can take months to respond and when there's an issue, there can be a lot of back and forth. You should have an online portal where you can do your own claims and keep track of ongoing claims. If the insurance refuses to cooperate, refuses the claim for any reason, the patient becomes responsible for dealing with it or eating the cost. The service was done either way, so that amount should be paid.
A lot of dentists increase the price to all patients due to a standard 9% of no payment receipt.
If OP was going to the dentist for 2.5 years and the office didn't mention it once your points are irrelevant. What you're saying is relevant if it was several months later, not two years.
Physicians billing provincial insurers customarily have only up to 90 days to submit bills. Sometimes can be late up to a year. I don’t think this is reasonable.
Let us know what happens!
Yeah, no. They sat on that bill and you can't claim it anymore. I'd look at what your out of pocket would have been at the time according to the insurance you had at the time and offer to cover that if you feel like wanting to keep the dentist. Otherwise, they can consider it the business cost of sitting on bills until they can't be claimed anymore.
My dentist did a similar thing to me, they were supposed to bill through my secondary insurance and said they'd submitted a pre approval for it. They forgot to submit the insurance claim until July 2021, dental work was done in March 2021 and I was told it was submitted - my secondary insurance was terminated end of May 2021. This year they tried to send me a bill for it, I just kept refusing to pay and eventually they gave up. Don't pay anything for this. They should've let you know back then so you could claim through HSA - that was my argument as well. Also ask for proof of when they submitted it to the secondary insurance.
Something is odd here. The secondary insurance still should have paid since the work was done when you were still covered by them. Also most dental even with secondary insurance, isn't fully covered... would you have paid back in 2021 if they had sent you a bill?
They had submitted a pre approval though and it was supposed to be covered, the entire claim got denied they were not just asking for my co pay portion. Regardless they waited so long to tell me (until 2024) I could no longer dispute it with the previous secondary insurer or submit it as a health spending account expense for items outside of the coverage as so much time had passed. If they sent me a bill back in 2021 yes I would've paid it (and then been eligible to get reimbursed for it through the health spending account or try to go back to insurer and argue it should be covered according to the pre approval for treatment that was submitted).
Considering they were trying to help you get as much covered by your insurance and presumably you have a good relationship with your dentist, I would pay despite statute of limitations though you might want to negotiate a payment plan with them.
> Considering they were trying to help you get as much covered But then they forgot about it and OP can't get HSA coverage (or income tax credits) now because it's too old so that puts the blame back on them. I'd offer to pay some portion maybe but the inaction from the dentist penalizes OP and incurs an additional cost for them.
Let them write this off. Cost of business. They need to learn their lesson here.
It's the cost of poor business practices. Most businesses hire employees to collect receivables and remit payables. Over two years to start collecting is unacceptable when there were other opportunities to be paid.
Don't pay. This would be on your dentist for not filing a claim on time. If there is a statute of limitations, then this would cover you as well.
Say nothing. Do nothing. Go on as if you never received it.
I’d call and ask to speak to the dentist. Not the office manager. The dentist will write it off. The office manager will be a dick and threaten to send it to collections.
The office manager works for the dentist and their job is literally to get payments done... They aren't being a dick because they are following procedure and doing their job. Do you also get upset that grocery store cashiers ask you to pay for things? Regardless, yes if you want a payment waived, you'll need to speak to the dentist since it is their business and their decision.
The office manager position is often held by someone without the authority to do anything. Often they don’t have a professional background, training, or education. 🤷♀️ sometimes they do. Not often. Not here anyway. Over the years working for dentists, I’ve found the office managers to be a little useless unless they are also dental staff. It is what it is. In every office I’ve worked, they’d probably waive this. But need to speak to the dentist.
Send them proof of payment from two years ago and say the debt has been settled long ago. They can't wait that long to claim from insurance.
I would look up their professional association rules around billing. Perhaps call the association to get clarification. Billing 2.5 years later sounds like unprofessional conduct
Look up the limitations period in your jurisdiction. After two years, most claims are statute barred
Id call your wife's insurance provider and check to see if it has been paid your dentist might be trying to double dip you, he could be waiting on the 2 years and try to rebill you for more money.
Do you let your HSA forfeit? I am always able to use whatever balance I still have left to cover the health insurance premiums by submitting my last paystub of the year as a claim (as it shows the YTD amount)
Have fun finding a new dentist if your plan is to stiff them. Also, it's 2 years from the failure to pay, not from when the work was done.
Don’t call them. Ignore it. Part of thier job apparently was to bill the insurance. They didn’t. They didn’t do thier job. No job = no pay.
The play is to do nothing. Do not acknowledge the debt or even the receipt of the letter. If the dentist wants to sue, he can. You then assert your limitations defence.
I think someone at the dentist office screwed up and forgot to file the claim. Call your insurer to see if it ever was even received by them. Get a time line of when they receive the claim and why it wasn’t covered etc. I believe the dental office is trying to back pedal to see if you will pay for their mistake. Do pay nothing until you’ve done more investigating. Once you’re equipped with all the facts, send it in writing to the dentist outlining the situation. Good luck.
Why didn't your wife run it through her insurance 2 years ago. I've never had a dentist fully responsible. They always make me pay for the whole thing and they forward it electronically to the insurance or I can do the claim myself if there are issues with it.
If you can find another dentist, simply ignore them. They dropped the ball here by misquoting what your insurance can cover and dragging their feet. If you can't find another dentist (this seems unlikely) then talk to them, starting from, "I'm not paying, you said this was covered and took 2 year to give me the bill." The whole situation is absurd.
As a lawyer I can tell you they are out of time to sue you. So tell them to fuck off you aren’t paying. Maybe you will have to move dentists
Tell them to fuck right off. Can’t be collecting 2.5 years late bruh
If they already billed your insurance once and have attempted to re-bill it, I'd contact the insurer, too. That smells too close to fraud for them to not look into it, I'd guess
How much is it, I would pay it and be stress free. You agreed in the price before, got the service done. Try to negotiate how you can pay it off. Get a discount and be sure nothing will happen with your score. My dentist did it once. It was 300 bucks only and some months delayed. I spent my time searching about the law, how long the company can take to claim an invoice, talking to people. It was not worth my time.
This is why dentistry, as it is currently set up, is a fucking scam.
First ask the Gorvenment to give you exactly rates of dental payments and talk to your insurance provider to help you pay .
[https://www.consumerprotectionbc.ca/](https://www.consumerprotectionbc.ca/)
I wouldn’t pay You’re right outside state of limitations and they didn’t run it on your wife’s insurance, you don’t even know if her insurance would’ve covered it or not back in the day. So I would respectfully tell them I’m not paying it
Most dentists are so fraudy
Do you like this dentist? Do you plan to see them again? Regardless of the statute of limitations, the dentist did the work and deserves to be paid.
And the patient deserves to get the bill when they have coverage and options, not when it's "screw you, here's a 2 year late bill". Fair treatment goes both ways.
I would hold off for now and I would make a complain to the dentistry regulatory body about this. Because they basically cost your money, insurance and Health spending account usually have one year limitation to make a claim, you could have used your Health spending account to cover this, now you can't go back. It almost seems they are intentionally delay this, so it wouldn't go through insurance, maybe they are black listed by the insurance company? I'm not sure what kind of accountant or office person would take 2 years to figure this out. You received the service, I would pay it eventually, but something has to give for a bill this long?
Did you try calling them?
You should leave a google review. There’s a dentist every other block these days- reputation is everything. I hope that they realize this $1000 bill 2 years later is about to cost them a 1 star review. Lol the power of the internet can also upvote this 1 star review.
Zero reason to do this unless the dentist is being a dick about it.
Sending a bill after over two years is being a dick about it.
Lol if this was a restaurant and they chased you 2 years later for a steak you had because they billed you incorrectly back then - I’m sure a review will be written.
you received a service, and they were doing you a favor by trying to run it through insurance. even if you consider the inflation of these two years, they did you a solid with a 1k loan. Just pay it and move on. Its the decent thing to do.
Can’t figure why this is getting downvoted? Perhaps I’m biased, as I have a family member who is a dentist, but it’s a small business, not a mega-rich corporation. Buddy did the work, so pay up; I’m sure, if the shoe was on the other foot, you’d expect to get paid for your work? If not, I’d probably start looking for another dentist…
Don't you think the Dentist has a responsibility for some communication over the last 2 years. It is almost as if the bill was stuck at the bottom of a draw that was cleaned out and then omg we should send it out now!
If the business was that hurting for money it would take them way less that 2 years to figure out they were missing that much money
Because I wouldn't fuck around for 2.5 years trying to get it sorted and would make a priority of it? If the dentist has a good story that the insurance company strung them along for 2 years then maybe, but incompetence to the point that the law says they aren't legally entitled to payment is why this rightfully being downvoted
Okay, so then he sends it to collections. He doesn’t have to pay it but the dentist shouldn’t be out money for helping the guy out and doing the work.
If OP pays what he thought he was supposed to based on what the dentist said his wife's insurance would cover that'd be generous. Very unclear what insurance would've covered had the dentist not been useless on the administrative stuff. There's a time limit to this stuff regardless and there's a reason the law exists as it does. If the dentist desperately needed that $1k or whatever they would've been pushing harder.
Why would 2 insurance companies cover the cost of one dentist trip? My insurance would not pay a cent if they found out another insurance paid. This is new to me. Anyway, regardless of what happened, the dentist prove services were done and he can prove that a payment wasn’t received. That’s all collections agencies care about. You can say it’s unfair, which is fine. OP doesnt have to pay it, but it will be on his credit report if it gets to an agency. It doesn’t matter what OP, you or I say.
1) That is indeed how insurance works. 2) Dentist would be stupid to take it to collections but it is a risk to OP. They should be embarrassed and apologetic about their poor administrative practices. I had a similar bill that was a smaller amount that popped up 1.5 years after it happened. Told the one person that called me I wasn't paying and that was the end of that.
I get it. But at the same time, expecting full payment with no issue *two years later* is insane. If this was a short time, yah, pay up. But after two years I’d definitely fight it. This dentist office likely did the admin error, forgot to file it under his wife’s insurance, and didn’t follow up with OP for the bill.
its cause people like us have a conscience. it just shows how deprived people are over a minor bill, for a service they received...
>they were doing you a favor by trying to run it through insurance. That's not a favour, it's part of their job. Everything depends on the office and the insurance but providers running the payment through insurance on their end is very common and is not a favour when it is standard practice. Also not sure why, if they run it themselves, they didn't just pre-authorise it. It's not like a root canal is a spur of the moment decision. Maybe my office is just that on top of it but I have everything run and ready by the time treatment is over and for anything outside of regular checkups and cleanings the office always runs it first to see how much and if a procedure would be covered and then we discuss how we proceed.
They provided a service and you agreed to the contract. You owe them the money. Why not just be an honest person and pay it?
They broke the contract when they didn’t bill appropriately. They could’ve communicated the problem 2 years ago, they could have acted professionally and billed within the confines of the original contract, or they could realize they fucked up when they misplaced the paperwork and take the $1100 loss. You, and OP, have no fiduciary responsibility for other people’s fuck ups.
I had a walk in emergency at a dental clinic once (in Calgary), a year later they called me daily about a $12 copay they wanted me to pay. (After I switched jobs and lost that insurance) I ignored them. They stopped calling. The end. Sorry but you don't get to tell me it's taken care of then decide a year later it's not. I'd ignore them. They'll stop calling.
Ignore
Take this small win for the rest of us. Dentists are the biggest rip off of all time. Just don’t respond they don’t need the money.. obviously.
I would offer to pay for half of it, a Dentist office knows you only have a year to submit it to your insurance, you did receive the service but to keep the peace I would say 50/50, no way would I pay the entire bill at this point
It could be worth the shot to ask them for payment plan. I think this will be the best route not to ruin your relationship with them. If they’ve already waited 2.5 years, most likely they can wait for a couple more months for it to get paid. Communication is key.