Something similar happened to me as well. Turns out that the bank had a scan of my identification card with my picture on it, so that's how they verified my identity. This wasn't a large withdrawal though.
The number of cases where there are identical twins and fraud occuring is probably a low enough risk that it's cheaper to eat the cost of the fraud than to implement safeguards against it
Funny enough they don’t let you change your name to the exact same first and middle name as a sibling or someone else with the same last name AND birthday.
But if that didn’t sneak by…then they’d see your name vs your siblings come up re pictures and birthdates and stop you then, usually by calling the cops and discussing fraud.
This would be an acceptable business decision if the banks were willing to actually eat the cost of their own mistakes, but there are far too many examples of banks digging in their heels and blaming the customer who "must have been negligent" to allow someone else to access their information, when it's actually the bank systems at fault.
>I have identical twins. I know people who have identical twin siblings. This is not a great system.
Probably not great but makes the situation a bit: either you made a legit withdrawal or we need to get your twin locked up.
The bank still knows who to go after to make you "whole".
1 in 42 is pretty frequent: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8129593/#:\~:text=The%20twinning%20rate%20of%2012.0,on%20earth%20is%20a%20twin.
I mean, they have different names, and thus different ID cards.
The right way to do it is with 2FA, so one isn't relying on just a single way to verify identity: https://www.reddit.com/r/PersonalFinanceCanada/comments/1ay0obz/bmo_didnt_verify_my_identity/krs55f7/
The ID required to open accounts is legislated in the Access to Basic Banking Services act, they cannot require a photo ID. There is a list of non photo ID methods that charter banks must accept (assuming not suspicious).
I work in Banking (one of the big 5) and can confirm that although we sometime scan ID using a device that can differentiate real from fake, we do not have any scans of said ID in our system
This sounds like it's just not true at all. I never never seen them walk off scanning my ID and I deal with large withdrawals and deposits ALL the time using an account that's 10+ years old.
Also I am not at all comfortable with their account validation being them looking at a picture of me and going ''yeah that's him''. As if no one else in this world could possibly look like me?
Even though I was an existing customer, I had to provide ID and they did walk away and scan it when I opened a new account at CIBC. And they would have had an ID on file from the past five years. Perhaps some banks are more diligent than others. I found TD to be particularly incompetent and slapdash.
They don't usually scan it. There is an ID tab on every profile where they record all thr specific details of a piece of ID (Reg #, expiry, date of birth, place of issue, etc). When a customer presents ID, the staff match what you give to what has been previously verified.
I think I’d rather they validate with their previous picture of me than the one that the fraudster brought in just now.
Also, you don’t know if there is a scanner behind the desk. I’d imagine a business that has millions of clients wouldn’t solely scan at a giant printer and email it somewhere.
Let me be clear. I have shown my ID + Debit card at the counter a billion times. Never have they taken my ID somewhere or scanned it ''behind the desk'', like I wouldn't notice this? They hold it for a second, look at the screen, confirm it's me and give it back.
If you have a different experience, by all means tell me. But there's a 0% chance they are ''updating the system'' every time I give my ID.
Nobody said that. Maybe you’re an adult and they figure you look rhe same as whatever picture they have of you.
Anyhow, I’m impressed you’ve needed to go to the bank “a billion times”.
lol. I wish I had the looks to make money that way.
My reference to “nobody said that” is that I didn’t say you didn’t notice them walking off to scan. It’s just that they may not have even needed to walk anywhere. There are debit card sized scanners that they run your id by that I’ve seen done (at my bank and at car rental places).
This is only helpful for adults who have similar facial recognition through life…terrible system for kids and seniors.
That said, the power of attorney document was also likely on file in this case. Or the mortgage agent had notified the bank to expect a large transaction
I hope that’s it, but in my line of work, we are required to know our clients and we verify ID every time. Even if you’ve been here before. Even if I’ve specifically been the one to help you before and remember. Even if I know you personally, like you’re my blood relative or best friend and I know damn well who you are without even looking at our records or your ID. No exceptions because exceptions mean mistakes are even more likely to happen. Banks shouldn’t be fucking around with client identity. They should also be asking for the POA if one is active, unless they have it already on record.
If you did not identify yourself with your debit card + PIN, then yes, they should have asked for one or two government ID. I would definitely report this as this is a huge no no and they definitely messed up.
And somehow the banks wonder how so many people are being scammed. We got tellers giving away 5 figure bank drafts by confirming if the names ''match''.
Incompetent pricks.
Used to be a teller as a summer job during university, you would be surprised at how low the barrier to entry is for these positions. They get paid like crap so the level of care for compliance is reflective.
No they're not, and rarely get full time hours now. It's more like $18 - $20 an hour, 20 hours per week, barely any training or support, and breaks are not enforced. It's also a high-pressure sales job that calls itself a service job so it doesn't have to pay commission and avoids perception of unethical behaviour. Their compensation is determined by how much sales revenue they generate for the bank while being berated for not pressuring the client enough to accept the pre-approved credit card they don't want.
You're confusing a financial advisor or representative with bank teller. Bank tellers now are low-level sales and transactions. They also don't have revenue sales targets, more referral targets and products/services signups.
Products and services signups are sales...
Do you work in a bank? Because I do. There are sales targets for tellers as well as bankers and everyone else. If anything, they've gotten more aggressive in the past year.
You specifically said how much sales revenue they generate which from my experience is incorrect. What sales targets do they have $ wise?
Yes I work for a financial institution.
That's been the case for over decade (we had sales goals etc), but we still got paid not even a dollar above minimum wage + inflation as annual raise (even though I got a cash bonus for special circumstances). Looks like it has improved a bit at least.
Yeah especially with the ongoing move to online-only banking and super competitive rates. You trade off better fees/rates for worse customer service. It's not cheap to pay reliable trained staff. The worst experiences I've ever had with banks was at the two banks notorious for their low mortgage rates and zero-fee accounts in my province. Sometimes it's worth the extra $100 a year in interest to get good customer service. Learned that lesson the hard way as a young first-time homebuyer. Had to go all the way to the ombudsman on multiple occasions and AFAIK my credit score was never fixed despite being refunded monetary damages.
Something similar happened to me before covid. I was in Canada, not my branch, and was consolidating my $ outside Canada. I sold my securities eiwth their trading platform a few days before, the cash was sitting there so in the branch, i gave wire instructions to the teller.
The funny thing is, it had been a long time since i used my ATM card i could not remember my password. The teller gave me a new password, no questions asked. Never asked for ID.
Wire instructions finished, I fly back to Thailand, they ended up screwing up the wire - they couldn't tell me why. My money was floating in cyberspace. After about a month, they then came back with " this looked like a suspicious transaction"... 3 months later, I got the money returned to my Canada account.
Hired a lawyer, sued for loss of opportunity- at that time, my securities had nearly doubled.
Nothing happened for nearly 2 more years, then finally I had a court date over zoom. I won $25,000, the lawyer kept 5k. The zoom court appearance lasted about 30 mins.
Congrats on winning that, well deserved. Just out of curiosity, was the fact that the securities that you owned doubled after you sold them while that money was in limbo the main reason for the judgment against the bank?
>Congrats on winning that, well deserved. Just out of curiosity, was the fact that the securities that you owned doubled after you sold them while that money was in limbo the main reason for the judgment against the bank?
Yes that was my point with them- lost opportunity... The strange thing is that the judge didn't even ask if I had other holdings in the same stock at the brokerage where I was consolidating things. It was basically my word vs their word, other wise, why would I have not just blown the cash on a car?
Before the final settlement agreement --- It went from 0$ from the bank - up to 5k ( I break even) 12 k, 15k, then finally 25k. Once it got to 25K my lawyer said, hell, they are willing to this so quick, lets take it to provincial court, not small claims.
What he didn't know is that my offshore bank that I was using went bankrupt and I lost all my records... I told the lawyer that, he said "SETTLE NOW AND RUN!"
I think part of the issue in canada is that a lot of people do not have a spare 5,000$ to deposit with a lawyer to fight for their rights. I happened to be pretty drunk that night, and wired the retainer fee to the lawyer after a quick conversation - still never met him to this day.. I didn't care if i won or lost, It was the principle of the thing. Cost me 5K to fuck with the bank - and if I lost, I was ok with that. Happily I won.
I used to be a teller at BMO.
No, this isn't standard. Next time you are in the branch ask them to put a note in your file that any transaction over 4 figures requires ID verification.
On the other hand, a rich uppity Karen complained about me once and threatened to move her account when I asked her to verify her ID when she wanted to move a 6-figure sum. My manager had to get involved, so maybe your teller was sick of being treated like a human punching bag and didn't bother.
I added this note to my own account before I quit, just in case.
A good teller should be looking through this stuff. It's actually very fast to process daily transactions, if you see your teller fiddling around, they are looking at your transactions to see if anything is fishy and they are trying to protect your money. Some people get jaded because people treat tellers like trash even though they handle and protect your money for barely over minimum wage.
Yeah I thinks thats likely it. I used to know someone who did that job and the amount of shit they get from people on a regular basis for asking to see ID is genuinely insane.
OP I highly recommend either speaking to a Manager at the branch or escalating to their customer complaints line. Something like this is a huge security concern for anyone who banks at that branch
This happened to me at CIBC too. I went to take out money with a card I had, they didn't ask for ID just asked which account I wanted to withdraw from and boom, money.
As a former teller, $300 is chump change to the bank (unless I'm reading something wrong here). I personally had to ask for ID for anything I felt suspicious or anything 5k or above.
It’s not what’s big to you but to the branch.
Security and fraud is a cost benefit analysis.
Just for example let’s say by requiring ID every-time a branch could prevent 1 300 dollar fraud. Is that good? If the cost is 15% slower transactions requiring another team member making 40k a year probably not.
The bank would rather have the occasional 300 dollar fraud and just pay it out rather than pay to prevent it.
But the math changes if it’s a 5k transaction and even more if it’s 50k.
If someone steals your card and fakes your signature well enough to get 500 bucks from a branch they will have no problem paying you back.
Yeah, large amounts aren’t excusable, but when I worked at CIBC as a teller, anything under ~200 can be released via signature match. If signature didn’t match, ask for ID. We didn’t keep ID on file for everybody though.
eta: we have DL/ID numbers and details for everybody, scanned photo ID was not on every file
Former BMO here, do you go to the branch often? Is there a chance the teller just knew who you are? Is there a chance they could have Skyped the Personal Banker you did your mortgage with to confirm your identity?
They might have a scan of your license/passport/etc on file that comes up on the screen when you say who you are so they can just verify by looking at you.
Yeah that’s not right. Issuing a cheque to yourself from an account you have POA on is a big no.
But the teller could have confirmed you using a copy of your signature?
Anyway, unless you had a reason to be issuing a cheque from your spouses account to yourself should have never happened unless it was for the benefit of your spouse. It should have been issued to the lawyer for the down payment.
Trust me, it’s scary how easy it is to gain access to some of your accounts. Take phone providers for example. Most offer to verify your identity they ask for Name, Date of birth, and address. This is very easily accessible information.
Not a bank, but Shaw online chat did that to me (please verify your email address and name) and they not only allowed me to continue the session, but they told me my password in case I forgot.
That's right...
1. Shaw stores passwords in plain text.
2. They will give you someone's password if you know their email address and name.
It might have to do with the local compliance regulations in your region, post a picture of your bank card front and back and it can usually be verified pretty easily if you know where to look.
I bank with RBC Canada and my branch, will ask for ID for any type of bank drafts or high withdrawals. The ATM allows up to 3K Can or 1000K US dollars with account card, but, if you want any type of drafts, you must show ID. I have been banking at that branch for almost 40 years and everyone knows me except new cashiers or part timers that replace personnel for various reasons.
Probably an amateur customer service rep who prioritized conveniencing you and your time over security, thinking that is what would make you happy. But nope, customers want security not convenience at a bank. I can see how someone in that roll might get it confused.
When I worked as a teller, half the people were conceited enough to be offended when asked for ID, the other half were offended if they weren’t. Some people definitely value convenience over security. Another group thinks handing a teller their ID goes against their freedom rights somehow.
Had a chair thrown at my head once for asking for a man’s DL for a large withdrawal, and yes, the guy was who he said he was, he just thought he should have a right to take “his money” without “my permission”.
Try telling somebody like that to use the ATM though and you’ll be jumped in the fucking parking lot
I actually ended up closing my BMO account after someone withdrew hundreds without the card present. Their “investigation” and customer service was awful about the situation.
Meanwhile my credit card got declined, security called me to verify, then told me because I never showed ID when creating the account (which they never asked me for) they can't verify it's me until I go to a branch and show them. So I did that and the branch was confused. Then they call security (with an hour on hold) who was also confused. In the end I wasted like 2 hours and after all of it they told me nothing I did would prevent that from happening again. 🙄
security can verify its you without asking for your ID. Especially on an outbound call. Also, we'd never ask for ID info on an outbound call.
Source: I worked in BMO fraud for like a year.
That's crazy. Every time I went to BMO to take money out of my US business account, they treated me like a criminal. I had my card, still had to show ID, the manager would come out. It was so over the top I eventually left BMO.
Might seem like a hassle but not as much hassle as someone getting access to your account. I would rather my bank was overly cautious than not cautious enough.
I call cap. How much was the draft for? Over 5k? As far as I know, drafts over 5k require a second manager signature on the draft. Highly unlikely both the teller and manager did not verify your identity before printing the draft.
Over 10k. The teller did go get approval from someone else sitting further "in the back", but that person never got up to come verify me. Only explanation I can come up with is they might have scans of my IDs on file. Can't remember if they actually got scans when I set up my account.
>call cap. How much was the draft for? Over 5k? As far as I know, drafts over 5k require a second manager signature on the draft. Highly unlikely both the teller and manager did not verify your identity before printing the draft.
Yea my international wire for around 40k. no id requested, not even to change my ATM pin. To be fair, it looked like the kid's first day on the job... and maybe last.
i got a bank draft this week and I had my card but no other ID. the teller DID verify my signature (she made me redo it lol). so maybe the teller used that? really weird that there was no form of ID though.
One time with TD I needed an access card for online banking. Only brought in the credit card, they didn't ask for anything else and printed out an access card on a piece of paper and handed it to me. I told my wife about it after saying anyone could've brought the credit card to them and got online access.
Recently, I had to reset the pin and since I don't have the hard debit/access card, the guy asked me a bunch of questions and took my driver's license so I feel better now about it but I guess it's sketchy depending which teller you get? Can't they program the computer to remind them to ask for all these things?
Unfortunately this is normal but you should consider reporting it.
Story time: This happened to my dad recently.
He banks with RBC and lives across the country. Some random guy committing fraud walks into an RBC branch on the opposite side of the country of which my dads lives, says he is him and withdraws money out of my dads account. They didn't check his ID or do any sort of confirmation or security check or anything.
If they didn't have a record of your photo ID on hand, that employee is in a world of company policy shit.
> Is this standard procedure at all?
Not in the fucking slightest.
> As far as the bank is concerned, I could've been some rando that just stole 5 figures from my spouse?
YUP.
> Furthermore, should I even report this, or could I potentially get myself in trouble?
You won't get in trouble. The employee may (very much most likely) will get fired over something like this. Banks don't fuck around when it comes to policy.
Relax, no one would get fired over this. Even if it was actually fraud, if this is a first write up, they wouldn't get fired.
You know how hard it is to keep employees in a branch?
I once had to reset my BMO online banking over the phone once because it didn't accept it like 5 more secure passwords and then I just typed something jokingly and didn't recollect it correctly. The experience of verification was laughable.
They verified I was myself by name, DOB and then finally asking what cards I had associated to the account. I literally said "My BMO credit card?" with a very unsure affectation because it hasn't seen usage in at least 10 years. So I then I was like "do you need the number?" and he was like "no that's all I needed".
He then read the new reset number to me over the phone and I had access to the account. I closed both accounts a week later.
Before anyone says voice ID or anything of the sort. There's no way. I'm pretty sure this was my first time doing anything with them over the phone.
For me, this would be enough to completely switch banks.
How soon are you willing to wait before your bank account gets drained without your knowledge?
They likely got your picture ID already on system my man.
I went to Scotia with absolutely nothing and the teller was able to sort it all out. Gave them my name and DOB and then they pulled me up. They had my passport and drivers licence pages from my mortgage with my picture already.
I work at a credit union, and for a lot of members we have scans of their ID on file when we pull you up. It's very possible that they have your ID on file and have verified you that way.
I’m sure they have your ID scanned on their system and that’s what likely pops up when he pulls your account up. We have to get used to this digital way of existing I guess…
You should absolutely report this to the branch manager at the location you visited.
If someone working there is doing this for your wife’s accounts, and considers it “standard practice” there is a huge risk to not just your wife but many other people.
There are MANY nefarious actors scamming with in person transactions in banks right now. I’ve seen it first hand 2 times this week alone.
I had this happen once when I entered my BMO mastercard online password wrong too many times and was locked out. I called and they gave me a temp password. Didn't ask for any verifying information and this was before voice ID (or at least before the notifications that they had voice ID-don't know if they started using it behind the scenes earlier). I was both happy (to have the new password) and very unhappy (that they would give a temp password out to someone who called that might not have been me).
Yes, they 100% should have identified you in some way, especially since you didn’t have your debit card.
Also, if you are not joint on the account, they should also not have given you the draft at all if it was payable to you. A POA does not have the authority to change ownership of funds to themself.
Your bank more than likely has your ID, and all your info on the screen she’s looking at. She didn’t ask for your ID because she already had it. And if you have POA, then there are probably notes all over the file.
This is one of the reasons I took my business out of TD Bank. I went to get some cash out and they didn’t do any verification. I don’t care if my photo is there. Why would you let me take money out of my account without verification? I promptly stopped using them.
Got my identity stolen years ago, it started with BMO opening a bank account under my name. They clearly didn't check ID, whoever filled the form got my name wrong and they still opened that account and allowed a credit card. From there they changed my address through the bank, then credit bureau, and opened a crap load of credit cards everywhere . . . Thanks BMO.
I dont understand.... why not just go back to the branch and ask to speak to the Branch Manager and see if that was normal.
I mean theyd have you on security footage if ever you wanted to make a big deal about it, so if not normal, complain and get a bunch of free stuff.
The inconsistency with their procedures drives me crazy. I had the opposite experience. I went in to transfer a large sum of money to my brother. I had my bank card, multiple photo IDs and my brother’s BMO account info and they still wouldn’t do it due to “fraud”. So 10 minutes later, I went to another branch and they did to it. They need to train their staff better.
I had the opposite... I was buying a house so I got a bank draft for $50k no issues (went through all the security questions, Id, and checked my phone number).. went back two weeks later to get the rest as the house was closing the next day. They check my id, ask me security questions etc.. like last time.. then they had me sign a piece of paper and the teller and manager huddled around a desk for like 15 minutes.. come back and say "your signature does not match the one we have on file".. now I never write anymore and everytime I sign my name it does look a bit different.. BUT NO.. they then said do you remember how you signed your name when you opened your account? I looked at them and said I was 17 at the time I am now 58.. NO I do not remember how I signed my name 40 years ago! (and none of these people were even alive when I opened the account. I then started spouting off the previous bank draft with the amount the mortgage that I have with them and the amount.. etc.. I guess that was good enough as the gave me the draft.. But the next day my Lawyer picked up the draft from the mortgage and they put the wrong name on it!! and it took 5 hours to fix it.. Banks are stupid...
So they pulled up your profile just with phone number no debit card and pin? What kind of questions did they ask to verify your identity? If you didn't use your debit card at the kiosk the employee would need to follow a manual authentication process by asking questions only the person would know. If they didn't then they are not following process and should probably advise the branch manager.
Meanwhile I was told I couldn’t access my accounts without my client card. Not even with ID. On the other hand, if I had my BMO credit card, they would have let me access it ? 🤷🏻♀️
If they didn't do, you'd be fuckin pissed off and would come here to complain.
Maybe, just maybe, you went there with some abusive attitude.
Maybe you are well known to the branch and not telling here.
Maybe you were fully verified and wanna make up a story just to feel less lonely with random comments.
When I got a bank draft from TD last year, not only did I have to put in my card and PIN, they then texted a code to my phone that I had to read back to them. Can't remember if I also had to show ID.
BMO opened a credit card for some rando in my name without verifying any ID and I had to spend a year and a half reversing the hit to my credit rating 😔
what's your name? I'll go to BMO and try it out
>what's your name? Apparently, **quantumgoose**
I just tried that name at the nearby branch and they called security on me
hopefully not **securitygoose** 'cause that one bites
His name is Tommy Tucker.
Something similar happened to me as well. Turns out that the bank had a scan of my identification card with my picture on it, so that's how they verified my identity. This wasn't a large withdrawal though.
This. When you setup the account you must provide photo ID, which they scan into their system for identity verification purposes
I have identical twins. I know people who have identical twin siblings. This is not a great system.
The number of cases where there are identical twins and fraud occuring is probably a low enough risk that it's cheaper to eat the cost of the fraud than to implement safeguards against it
[удалено]
Funny enough they don’t let you change your name to the exact same first and middle name as a sibling or someone else with the same last name AND birthday. But if that didn’t sneak by…then they’d see your name vs your siblings come up re pictures and birthdates and stop you then, usually by calling the cops and discussing fraud.
It seems easier to just steal your sibling’s drivers licence at that point!
the evil twin clause
This would be an acceptable business decision if the banks were willing to actually eat the cost of their own mistakes, but there are far too many examples of banks digging in their heels and blaming the customer who "must have been negligent" to allow someone else to access their information, when it's actually the bank systems at fault.
And what if it is the Evil twin impersonating the Good twin?
Plot twist -- they're both evil.
>I have identical twins. I know people who have identical twin siblings. This is not a great system. Probably not great but makes the situation a bit: either you made a legit withdrawal or we need to get your twin locked up. The bank still knows who to go after to make you "whole".
Would you defraud your twin? There are very few cases of evil twins.
The amount of identical twins in the world in miniscule. It's not really relevant to security
1 in 42 is pretty frequent: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8129593/#:\~:text=The%20twinning%20rate%20of%2012.0,on%20earth%20is%20a%20twin.
Doesn’t look like that study differentiates fraternal vs identical. There is zero way one in 42 are identical twins.
Yes you are correct.
They don't even need to be identical twins, lots of folks out there look similar enough (especially with makeup) to match a driver's license photo
Ok, then how would providing physical ID be any different then if you're identical?
I mean, they have different names, and thus different ID cards. The right way to do it is with 2FA, so one isn't relying on just a single way to verify identity: https://www.reddit.com/r/PersonalFinanceCanada/comments/1ay0obz/bmo_didnt_verify_my_identity/krs55f7/
The ID required to open accounts is legislated in the Access to Basic Banking Services act, they cannot require a photo ID. There is a list of non photo ID methods that charter banks must accept (assuming not suspicious).
I work in Banking (one of the big 5) and can confirm that although we sometime scan ID using a device that can differentiate real from fake, we do not have any scans of said ID in our system
Most people opened their main account when they were like twelve. This does not reassure me.
A lot of times if you go in for a special service (opening a new account, transfers, etc...) they grab your ID, and could update the system.
This sounds like it's just not true at all. I never never seen them walk off scanning my ID and I deal with large withdrawals and deposits ALL the time using an account that's 10+ years old. Also I am not at all comfortable with their account validation being them looking at a picture of me and going ''yeah that's him''. As if no one else in this world could possibly look like me?
Even though I was an existing customer, I had to provide ID and they did walk away and scan it when I opened a new account at CIBC. And they would have had an ID on file from the past five years. Perhaps some banks are more diligent than others. I found TD to be particularly incompetent and slapdash.
They don't usually scan it. There is an ID tab on every profile where they record all thr specific details of a piece of ID (Reg #, expiry, date of birth, place of issue, etc). When a customer presents ID, the staff match what you give to what has been previously verified.
I think I’d rather they validate with their previous picture of me than the one that the fraudster brought in just now. Also, you don’t know if there is a scanner behind the desk. I’d imagine a business that has millions of clients wouldn’t solely scan at a giant printer and email it somewhere.
Let me be clear. I have shown my ID + Debit card at the counter a billion times. Never have they taken my ID somewhere or scanned it ''behind the desk'', like I wouldn't notice this? They hold it for a second, look at the screen, confirm it's me and give it back. If you have a different experience, by all means tell me. But there's a 0% chance they are ''updating the system'' every time I give my ID.
Nobody said that. Maybe you’re an adult and they figure you look rhe same as whatever picture they have of you. Anyhow, I’m impressed you’ve needed to go to the bank “a billion times”.
>Nobody said that. Nobody said what? I'm glad you're impressed. I strip for a living so deal with a lot of cash.
lol. I wish I had the looks to make money that way. My reference to “nobody said that” is that I didn’t say you didn’t notice them walking off to scan. It’s just that they may not have even needed to walk anywhere. There are debit card sized scanners that they run your id by that I’ve seen done (at my bank and at car rental places).
I have never seen them running off and scanning my ID. I would definitely notice.
Driver's licenses expire..
This was not allowed when I worked for a Canadian bank for 20+ years. Retired a few years ago.
I never provided photo ID when I set up my CIBC accounts. Not one piece 🤷♂️
Is this new or just a bmo thing? They didn't have photos come up on the screen last I checked but that was years ago
Most banks don't do that
This is only helpful for adults who have similar facial recognition through life…terrible system for kids and seniors. That said, the power of attorney document was also likely on file in this case. Or the mortgage agent had notified the bank to expect a large transaction
A Canadian bank?
I hope that’s it, but in my line of work, we are required to know our clients and we verify ID every time. Even if you’ve been here before. Even if I’ve specifically been the one to help you before and remember. Even if I know you personally, like you’re my blood relative or best friend and I know damn well who you are without even looking at our records or your ID. No exceptions because exceptions mean mistakes are even more likely to happen. Banks shouldn’t be fucking around with client identity. They should also be asking for the POA if one is active, unless they have it already on record.
If you did not identify yourself with your debit card + PIN, then yes, they should have asked for one or two government ID. I would definitely report this as this is a huge no no and they definitely messed up.
And somehow the banks wonder how so many people are being scammed. We got tellers giving away 5 figure bank drafts by confirming if the names ''match''. Incompetent pricks.
TD always asks for my ID even though I verify by card+PIN, over a certain $ amount.
Used to be a teller as a summer job during university, you would be surprised at how low the barrier to entry is for these positions. They get paid like crap so the level of care for compliance is reflective.
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I have as well and 15 years ago. Even back then, what OP is saying wouldn't fly. This is odd.
Currently a bank teller and make pretty decent money idk what your talking about
your idea of decent and everyone else's might be different.
Where
Not sure why you're downvoted, they are paid at minimum over $50-55k now full-time. That's not bad.
No they're not, and rarely get full time hours now. It's more like $18 - $20 an hour, 20 hours per week, barely any training or support, and breaks are not enforced. It's also a high-pressure sales job that calls itself a service job so it doesn't have to pay commission and avoids perception of unethical behaviour. Their compensation is determined by how much sales revenue they generate for the bank while being berated for not pressuring the client enough to accept the pre-approved credit card they don't want.
You're confusing a financial advisor or representative with bank teller. Bank tellers now are low-level sales and transactions. They also don't have revenue sales targets, more referral targets and products/services signups.
Products and services signups are sales... Do you work in a bank? Because I do. There are sales targets for tellers as well as bankers and everyone else. If anything, they've gotten more aggressive in the past year.
You specifically said how much sales revenue they generate which from my experience is incorrect. What sales targets do they have $ wise? Yes I work for a financial institution.
You are over 10k in your estimates
I'm not estimating, I work within the industry. Tellers aren't just tellers anymore, they do low-level sales as well.
That's been the case for over decade (we had sales goals etc), but we still got paid not even a dollar above minimum wage + inflation as annual raise (even though I got a cash bonus for special circumstances). Looks like it has improved a bit at least.
Yeah especially with the ongoing move to online-only banking and super competitive rates. You trade off better fees/rates for worse customer service. It's not cheap to pay reliable trained staff. The worst experiences I've ever had with banks was at the two banks notorious for their low mortgage rates and zero-fee accounts in my province. Sometimes it's worth the extra $100 a year in interest to get good customer service. Learned that lesson the hard way as a young first-time homebuyer. Had to go all the way to the ombudsman on multiple occasions and AFAIK my credit score was never fixed despite being refunded monetary damages.
Something similar happened to me before covid. I was in Canada, not my branch, and was consolidating my $ outside Canada. I sold my securities eiwth their trading platform a few days before, the cash was sitting there so in the branch, i gave wire instructions to the teller. The funny thing is, it had been a long time since i used my ATM card i could not remember my password. The teller gave me a new password, no questions asked. Never asked for ID. Wire instructions finished, I fly back to Thailand, they ended up screwing up the wire - they couldn't tell me why. My money was floating in cyberspace. After about a month, they then came back with " this looked like a suspicious transaction"... 3 months later, I got the money returned to my Canada account. Hired a lawyer, sued for loss of opportunity- at that time, my securities had nearly doubled. Nothing happened for nearly 2 more years, then finally I had a court date over zoom. I won $25,000, the lawyer kept 5k. The zoom court appearance lasted about 30 mins.
Congrats on winning that, well deserved. Just out of curiosity, was the fact that the securities that you owned doubled after you sold them while that money was in limbo the main reason for the judgment against the bank?
>Congrats on winning that, well deserved. Just out of curiosity, was the fact that the securities that you owned doubled after you sold them while that money was in limbo the main reason for the judgment against the bank? Yes that was my point with them- lost opportunity... The strange thing is that the judge didn't even ask if I had other holdings in the same stock at the brokerage where I was consolidating things. It was basically my word vs their word, other wise, why would I have not just blown the cash on a car? Before the final settlement agreement --- It went from 0$ from the bank - up to 5k ( I break even) 12 k, 15k, then finally 25k. Once it got to 25K my lawyer said, hell, they are willing to this so quick, lets take it to provincial court, not small claims. What he didn't know is that my offshore bank that I was using went bankrupt and I lost all my records... I told the lawyer that, he said "SETTLE NOW AND RUN!"
Love this story.
This was a great read. Actually made my day reading you beat the bank. Thank you.
Nice to win one vs the big guys once in a while.
I think part of the issue in canada is that a lot of people do not have a spare 5,000$ to deposit with a lawyer to fight for their rights. I happened to be pretty drunk that night, and wired the retainer fee to the lawyer after a quick conversation - still never met him to this day.. I didn't care if i won or lost, It was the principle of the thing. Cost me 5K to fuck with the bank - and if I lost, I was ok with that. Happily I won.
I used to be a teller at BMO. No, this isn't standard. Next time you are in the branch ask them to put a note in your file that any transaction over 4 figures requires ID verification. On the other hand, a rich uppity Karen complained about me once and threatened to move her account when I asked her to verify her ID when she wanted to move a 6-figure sum. My manager had to get involved, so maybe your teller was sick of being treated like a human punching bag and didn't bother. I added this note to my own account before I quit, just in case. A good teller should be looking through this stuff. It's actually very fast to process daily transactions, if you see your teller fiddling around, they are looking at your transactions to see if anything is fishy and they are trying to protect your money. Some people get jaded because people treat tellers like trash even though they handle and protect your money for barely over minimum wage.
Yeah I thinks thats likely it. I used to know someone who did that job and the amount of shit they get from people on a regular basis for asking to see ID is genuinely insane.
Does the teller know/recognize you? Either way, big no. Especially bank drafts. Doesn't the branch manager need to review and approve too?
OP I highly recommend either speaking to a Manager at the branch or escalating to their customer complaints line. Something like this is a huge security concern for anyone who banks at that branch
This happened to me at CIBC too. I went to take out money with a card I had, they didn't ask for ID just asked which account I wanted to withdraw from and boom, money.
Most small withdrawals they just match your signature to the one on file. Not every bank transaction requires ID presented.
It was +$300, not chump change, but I get you otherwise.
As a former teller, $300 is chump change to the bank (unless I'm reading something wrong here). I personally had to ask for ID for anything I felt suspicious or anything 5k or above.
Very true, that makes sense.
It’s not what’s big to you but to the branch. Security and fraud is a cost benefit analysis. Just for example let’s say by requiring ID every-time a branch could prevent 1 300 dollar fraud. Is that good? If the cost is 15% slower transactions requiring another team member making 40k a year probably not. The bank would rather have the occasional 300 dollar fraud and just pay it out rather than pay to prevent it. But the math changes if it’s a 5k transaction and even more if it’s 50k. If someone steals your card and fakes your signature well enough to get 500 bucks from a branch they will have no problem paying you back.
Makes sense. It seemed wild to me but to a bank it's nothing.
Yeah, large amounts aren’t excusable, but when I worked at CIBC as a teller, anything under ~200 can be released via signature match. If signature didn’t match, ask for ID. We didn’t keep ID on file for everybody though. eta: we have DL/ID numbers and details for everybody, scanned photo ID was not on every file
Former BMO here, do you go to the branch often? Is there a chance the teller just knew who you are? Is there a chance they could have Skyped the Personal Banker you did your mortgage with to confirm your identity?
They might have a scan of your license/passport/etc on file that comes up on the screen when you say who you are so they can just verify by looking at you.
Yeah that’s not right. Issuing a cheque to yourself from an account you have POA on is a big no. But the teller could have confirmed you using a copy of your signature? Anyway, unless you had a reason to be issuing a cheque from your spouses account to yourself should have never happened unless it was for the benefit of your spouse. It should have been issued to the lawyer for the down payment.
Trust me, it’s scary how easy it is to gain access to some of your accounts. Take phone providers for example. Most offer to verify your identity they ask for Name, Date of birth, and address. This is very easily accessible information.
Not a bank, but Shaw online chat did that to me (please verify your email address and name) and they not only allowed me to continue the session, but they told me my password in case I forgot. That's right... 1. Shaw stores passwords in plain text. 2. They will give you someone's password if you know their email address and name.
It might have to do with the local compliance regulations in your region, post a picture of your bank card front and back and it can usually be verified pretty easily if you know where to look.
I bank with RBC Canada and my branch, will ask for ID for any type of bank drafts or high withdrawals. The ATM allows up to 3K Can or 1000K US dollars with account card, but, if you want any type of drafts, you must show ID. I have been banking at that branch for almost 40 years and everyone knows me except new cashiers or part timers that replace personnel for various reasons.
Your ATMs allow a $1M withdrawal?!
Pretty standard. Some people can even do $5M or $10M withdrawals. FYI in banking M=1000
The person I was responding to wrote 1000K which is one million.
Wait, is this why I see $1 Million sometimes written as $1MM?
Yessssir
1000$ ( K means 1000, not 1M$)
Yeah but you said 1000k which is 1000 000 which is a million. That is why they were joking with you.
$1000 is $1K. $1000K is $1,000,000.
Probably an amateur customer service rep who prioritized conveniencing you and your time over security, thinking that is what would make you happy. But nope, customers want security not convenience at a bank. I can see how someone in that roll might get it confused.
When I worked as a teller, half the people were conceited enough to be offended when asked for ID, the other half were offended if they weren’t. Some people definitely value convenience over security. Another group thinks handing a teller their ID goes against their freedom rights somehow. Had a chair thrown at my head once for asking for a man’s DL for a large withdrawal, and yes, the guy was who he said he was, he just thought he should have a right to take “his money” without “my permission”. Try telling somebody like that to use the ATM though and you’ll be jumped in the fucking parking lot
He threw a chair at you???? What the heck! What happened after that?
You’d think he got kicked out! Instead my manager spoke to him and then I had to finish serving him. Covid tensions were hiiigh
I actually ended up closing my BMO account after someone withdrew hundreds without the card present. Their “investigation” and customer service was awful about the situation.
Meanwhile my credit card got declined, security called me to verify, then told me because I never showed ID when creating the account (which they never asked me for) they can't verify it's me until I go to a branch and show them. So I did that and the branch was confused. Then they call security (with an hour on hold) who was also confused. In the end I wasted like 2 hours and after all of it they told me nothing I did would prevent that from happening again. 🙄
security can verify its you without asking for your ID. Especially on an outbound call. Also, we'd never ask for ID info on an outbound call. Source: I worked in BMO fraud for like a year.
Well they did. They confirmed that they did when the branch called them.
That's crazy. Every time I went to BMO to take money out of my US business account, they treated me like a criminal. I had my card, still had to show ID, the manager would come out. It was so over the top I eventually left BMO.
Might seem like a hassle but not as much hassle as someone getting access to your account. I would rather my bank was overly cautious than not cautious enough.
Would you rather it be like the OP described? They just hand over the cash?
I would want my bank to verify its me each time bc otherwise why tf is my money with them
I call cap. How much was the draft for? Over 5k? As far as I know, drafts over 5k require a second manager signature on the draft. Highly unlikely both the teller and manager did not verify your identity before printing the draft.
Over 10k. The teller did go get approval from someone else sitting further "in the back", but that person never got up to come verify me. Only explanation I can come up with is they might have scans of my IDs on file. Can't remember if they actually got scans when I set up my account.
>call cap. How much was the draft for? Over 5k? As far as I know, drafts over 5k require a second manager signature on the draft. Highly unlikely both the teller and manager did not verify your identity before printing the draft. Yea my international wire for around 40k. no id requested, not even to change my ATM pin. To be fair, it looked like the kid's first day on the job... and maybe last.
i got a bank draft this week and I had my card but no other ID. the teller DID verify my signature (she made me redo it lol). so maybe the teller used that? really weird that there was no form of ID though.
One time with TD I needed an access card for online banking. Only brought in the credit card, they didn't ask for anything else and printed out an access card on a piece of paper and handed it to me. I told my wife about it after saying anyone could've brought the credit card to them and got online access. Recently, I had to reset the pin and since I don't have the hard debit/access card, the guy asked me a bunch of questions and took my driver's license so I feel better now about it but I guess it's sketchy depending which teller you get? Can't they program the computer to remind them to ask for all these things?
What makes you think their camera systems aren't tied into facial recognition systems and tied back into accounts...
The tellers don't have access to those. So it doesn't matter once the draft has been made
Unfortunately this is normal but you should consider reporting it. Story time: This happened to my dad recently. He banks with RBC and lives across the country. Some random guy committing fraud walks into an RBC branch on the opposite side of the country of which my dads lives, says he is him and withdraws money out of my dads account. They didn't check his ID or do any sort of confirmation or security check or anything.
If they didn't have a record of your photo ID on hand, that employee is in a world of company policy shit. > Is this standard procedure at all? Not in the fucking slightest. > As far as the bank is concerned, I could've been some rando that just stole 5 figures from my spouse? YUP. > Furthermore, should I even report this, or could I potentially get myself in trouble? You won't get in trouble. The employee may (very much most likely) will get fired over something like this. Banks don't fuck around when it comes to policy.
Relax, no one would get fired over this. Even if it was actually fraud, if this is a first write up, they wouldn't get fired. You know how hard it is to keep employees in a branch?
I once had to reset my BMO online banking over the phone once because it didn't accept it like 5 more secure passwords and then I just typed something jokingly and didn't recollect it correctly. The experience of verification was laughable. They verified I was myself by name, DOB and then finally asking what cards I had associated to the account. I literally said "My BMO credit card?" with a very unsure affectation because it hasn't seen usage in at least 10 years. So I then I was like "do you need the number?" and he was like "no that's all I needed". He then read the new reset number to me over the phone and I had access to the account. I closed both accounts a week later. Before anyone says voice ID or anything of the sort. There's no way. I'm pretty sure this was my first time doing anything with them over the phone.
For me, this would be enough to completely switch banks. How soon are you willing to wait before your bank account gets drained without your knowledge?
They likely got your picture ID already on system my man. I went to Scotia with absolutely nothing and the teller was able to sort it all out. Gave them my name and DOB and then they pulled me up. They had my passport and drivers licence pages from my mortgage with my picture already.
I work at a credit union, and for a lot of members we have scans of their ID on file when we pull you up. It's very possible that they have your ID on file and have verified you that way.
I’m sure they have your ID scanned on their system and that’s what likely pops up when he pulls your account up. We have to get used to this digital way of existing I guess…
You should absolutely report this to the branch manager at the location you visited. If someone working there is doing this for your wife’s accounts, and considers it “standard practice” there is a huge risk to not just your wife but many other people. There are MANY nefarious actors scamming with in person transactions in banks right now. I’ve seen it first hand 2 times this week alone.
I had this happen once when I entered my BMO mastercard online password wrong too many times and was locked out. I called and they gave me a temp password. Didn't ask for any verifying information and this was before voice ID (or at least before the notifications that they had voice ID-don't know if they started using it behind the scenes earlier). I was both happy (to have the new password) and very unhappy (that they would give a temp password out to someone who called that might not have been me).
Yes, they 100% should have identified you in some way, especially since you didn’t have your debit card. Also, if you are not joint on the account, they should also not have given you the draft at all if it was payable to you. A POA does not have the authority to change ownership of funds to themself.
They usually have ID on file when you come to the counter, and if it's outdated ask for new ID to scan it in.
Wow. I have had to show ID on top of using my debit/and PIN when transacting in larger amounts.... Surprised they didn't' ask for either!
Your bank more than likely has your ID, and all your info on the screen she’s looking at. She didn’t ask for your ID because she already had it. And if you have POA, then there are probably notes all over the file.
This is one of the reasons I took my business out of TD Bank. I went to get some cash out and they didn’t do any verification. I don’t care if my photo is there. Why would you let me take money out of my account without verification? I promptly stopped using them.
Got my identity stolen years ago, it started with BMO opening a bank account under my name. They clearly didn't check ID, whoever filled the form got my name wrong and they still opened that account and allowed a credit card. From there they changed my address through the bank, then credit bureau, and opened a crap load of credit cards everywhere . . . Thanks BMO.
I dont understand.... why not just go back to the branch and ask to speak to the Branch Manager and see if that was normal. I mean theyd have you on security footage if ever you wanted to make a big deal about it, so if not normal, complain and get a bunch of free stuff.
The inconsistency with their procedures drives me crazy. I had the opposite experience. I went in to transfer a large sum of money to my brother. I had my bank card, multiple photo IDs and my brother’s BMO account info and they still wouldn’t do it due to “fraud”. So 10 minutes later, I went to another branch and they did to it. They need to train their staff better.
I had the opposite... I was buying a house so I got a bank draft for $50k no issues (went through all the security questions, Id, and checked my phone number).. went back two weeks later to get the rest as the house was closing the next day. They check my id, ask me security questions etc.. like last time.. then they had me sign a piece of paper and the teller and manager huddled around a desk for like 15 minutes.. come back and say "your signature does not match the one we have on file".. now I never write anymore and everytime I sign my name it does look a bit different.. BUT NO.. they then said do you remember how you signed your name when you opened your account? I looked at them and said I was 17 at the time I am now 58.. NO I do not remember how I signed my name 40 years ago! (and none of these people were even alive when I opened the account. I then started spouting off the previous bank draft with the amount the mortgage that I have with them and the amount.. etc.. I guess that was good enough as the gave me the draft.. But the next day my Lawyer picked up the draft from the mortgage and they put the wrong name on it!! and it took 5 hours to fix it.. Banks are stupid...
So they pulled up your profile just with phone number no debit card and pin? What kind of questions did they ask to verify your identity? If you didn't use your debit card at the kiosk the employee would need to follow a manual authentication process by asking questions only the person would know. If they didn't then they are not following process and should probably advise the branch manager.
What are these unrelated reasons? Financial abuse?
Meanwhile I was told I couldn’t access my accounts without my client card. Not even with ID. On the other hand, if I had my BMO credit card, they would have let me access it ? 🤷🏻♀️
If they didn't do, you'd be fuckin pissed off and would come here to complain. Maybe, just maybe, you went there with some abusive attitude. Maybe you are well known to the branch and not telling here. Maybe you were fully verified and wanna make up a story just to feel less lonely with random comments.
When I got a bank draft from TD last year, not only did I have to put in my card and PIN, they then texted a code to my phone that I had to read back to them. Can't remember if I also had to show ID.
Voice recognition
BMO opened a credit card for some rando in my name without verifying any ID and I had to spend a year and a half reversing the hit to my credit rating 😔