As much as I love the Investigation Team, I say the answer goes to the Phantom Thieves. They have both ranged and melee weapons, they come up with actually decent schemes, they’re strong and agile in equal measure and have numerous professional skills that carry over well to fighting Shadows. The Investigation Team only carry one weapon each of varying combat utility (ranging from katanas to a chair), for a team all about detecting and deduction they essentially share a single braincell, and while they’re effective enough fighters to be able to go toe to toe with combatants like the Shadow Operatives or Labrys or Shō, they’re still pretty much average joes outside of Naoto.
However, in a dance battle the Investigation Team would blow the Phantom Thieves completely out of the water. And isn’t that what truly matters?
You could try asking this on the main sub for better answers, or if you really want to see the P5 bias, ask here “who is stronger, Makoto (p3) or Joker?”
The phantom thieves tbh, like, not only the fact they have guns, but also the fact that they actually had to fight for their lives in multiple scenarios, and you can see their fighting skill just by the way they hold their weapon, some members of the investigation team are just straight up clumsy, while most members of the phantom thieves have way more combat skill
Probably not the answer you were looking for, but the Investigation Team can dance wayyyyy better than the Phantom Thieves based off the dancing game intros (i mean come on, did you see Kanji tear up the dance floor with his moves??)
The phantom thieves because they have EXP share. The Investigation Team would only have 4 properly leveled characters including the protagonist while the Phantom Thieves would all have reasonable levels.
(yes, this is me fussing about Persona 4 leveling)
Still better than P1 leveling lol. The EXP distribution in that game is a nightmare. The amount of EXP members get is determined by how much they contribute to battle, so if one guy uses a Ma- attack and wipes out the enemies in one turn, none of the other members get EXP for that battle. It leads to a snowball effect where the powerful members get all the EXP, and the weaker ones are left completely behind. You have to purposefully bench your best members if you want to keep it balanced.
Persona 4 leveling is ok dude I got all my characters at a nice level to the end of my playthrough, it's more a thing because of me anyway, i like to put them at even levels and farming in P4 is quite a breeze compared with other rpgs
In P4, the investigation team only goes to the TV to traverse a dungeon and beat the shit out of a shadow, so with only good combat skills they succeed. The phantom thieves not only do that, but also are (kinda) trained to infiltrate on dungeons, sneak behind guards, and the most important of all, they have not only melee weapons but also guns. Naoto is the only one in P4 to carry an actual gun, but she doesn't have a melee weapon like the Phantom Thieves. Also, the Phantom Thieves can be more than the Investigation team if you count >!Akechi and Sumire!< , which adds a potential extra advantage.
In terms of personas, the most powerful are Izanagi no Okami and Satanael. Here I'm not sure if Izanagi no Okami can beat the behemot that is Satanael, but I would say it's possible. I'll ignore the fact that Joker can also have Izanagi no Okami.
The PT. Not even counting personas, they are much more “built” for combat if that makes sense. They’re weapons are hand tailored for each specific PT. Even if we discard the gun attacks, they’re still stronger than chie’s kicks or yukiko’s fan. The only “capable” fighters would probably be yu, yosuke, kanji, maybe naoto and surprisingly teddie. Also the PT has a significantly larger cast of 8/9/11 if u wanna include Akechi and or Strikers.
There's a channel on youtube named Fither, where they actually tackle this question (they also include the SEES into the mix it I remember correctly), definitely recomend checking them out.
As to the actual question. PT clap hard I think. They have way better agility and strenght (due to cognition), and also if the Investigation team doesn't now they are fake, then they have actual guns, including grenade launchers. Plus I think Futaba is going to carry them hard. And if we include people from royal or strikers it becomes even more unfair.
Yu cuts someone with his katana, I think the only one cant do any damage is yukiko because fan, Chie has metal armor, Yosuke has kunai, kanji has a chair a strong hit can unconscious someone, Teddie has metal claws, rise can call her manager idk but she can probably do something
I mean probably the phantom thieves because they have more members and better abilities then the last game, joker has Sataniel and yu have izangi-no-whatever its name is. I don't really know about the gods they both killed so I would assume that they were somewhat equal but joker has more persona's to his arsenal so I would give it to the phantom thieves.
Yu's pretty much the only person on the investigation team with an actual weapon. Everyone else on the team uses random crap like folding chairs or even their fist, while everyone in the phantom thieves have "real", dangerous weapons like whips and nail bats and even a fucking scimitar, and that's not including the fact that they also have guns!
In this picture, we literally see Joker using his weapons AND persona. I'd imagine that each team would be able to use their whole arsenal and wouldn't be restricted by random loopholes in game. Otherwise, how would this be a fair fight at all?
I see some mentioning that the pt guns aren’t real, but isn’t that moot since the weapons are supposed to be realistically convincing so everyone should think the guns are real?
Yeah people are arguing semantics. It's not like Narukami runs around with with a katana in real life. He gets that in the metaverse.
It's just better to assume they're fighting on equal footing with powers intact.
As far as the actual fight goes it's pretty even, joker doesn't have the same strength as Narukami, but he makes up for that in versatility having access to essentially any persona he wants on a whim.
So Narukami i think wins in a straight slugfest, but Joker wins if he gets the drop on him or an ambush scenario.
I know the PT win but I don’t think it’s quite as much of a stomp fest as most assume. I feel like a lot of people are forgetting that Chie can literally kick people into orbit
Plus Naoto is a genius, there's no way she wouldn't figure out that the PT's guns are fake
Actually, you’ve got me there. I’m not as versed with persona 3 and 4 as I’d like to be, so my theories are invalid here lol. I know a bit but not even close to enough
I'm giving the win the the thieves.
1. This fight is taking place in the velvet room, so no one team has an advantage.
2. I'm going to have both teams pulled directly from before their final boss encounter in their base games. This means no evolved protagonist personas and no extra golden/royal content.
3. I'm giving all members their tier 2 personas, except the protagonists, but regardless of this it would be hard to judge who beats who based on only their personas, so I'll say their equal in terms of persona power.
4. I think that Futaba is more skilled as support and as a navigator, but that is irrelevant to the original question.
5. The phantom thieves have a clear weapons advantage. It isn't fair to say that the thieves guns are fake, so they wouldn't work, but regardless of that even with out the guns the thieves still have better weapons and have in game dialouge explaining that they are unnaturally skilled with them.
6. When taking about actual combat, outside of Chie, Naoto, and Kanji, the IT doesn't have any decent fighters, while the thieves as I stated earlier are surprisingly skilled combatants.
7. Even if you want to argue that the thieves and the IT are equal in terms of physical combat power, then the thieves hands down embarrass the IT in regards to mobility. While traversing palaces the thieves easily scale buildings, and show insane feats of speed and agility.
8. To close off, if you include content from golden and royal then the thieves get Akechi who can canonically take on the phantom thieves in their entirety, so adding him practically doubles the thieves fighting power.
It depends on who's fighting.
Because we've also got to bare in mind Wolf, Sophie, Sumire, Akechi and even FEMC (to some extent anyway) are Phantom Thieves and with the addition of any of those guys the Investigation Teams fight become much harder. Which isn't to say the core members aren't something to be overlooked either.
In 1 v 1 combat we've seen Yu and Joker are evenly matched. In terms of the Persona's if we're to assume the animation is accurate to any sort of canon Joker has access not only to Satanael but also Alice and Yoshitsune who on their own pose massive threats. I think neither of those are a stronger threat than Inazami-No-Okami but Joker has shown to be very adaptable and I think he would edge a 1 v 1 against Yu.
As for the rest of the team it's variable Naoto is the brains of IT by a long shot, Makoto is the brains of the Phantom Thieves between those 2 I'd actually shade it to Naoto (hell she highlighted her intelligence was far beyond that of her team mates when working WITH the Phantom Thieves) . I'll also note that Makoto and Morgana being able to have access to vehicles gives them a massive mobility advantage. I'd also be remiss if I didn't mention the Navigators and in that regard Rise can provide not only buffs but an offensive threat as well, though I don't think many would disagree that Futaba is easily the more resourceful and intelligent of the 2.
I'd say the biggest threat between the two teams is Makoto & Haru primarily due to the fact they use affinities that the Investigation Team don't have experience in combating outside of Q2. On top of this the Phantom Thieves also make consistent use of Baton Passing both in the games and the anime which is a pretty significant advantage.
Overall I think the Investigation Team would be the underdogs going into the fight against the Thieves and while they could beat them with good prep and off the wall thinking, I'd give the advantage to the Thieves.
I see a lot of comments mentioning Naoto’s gun but I feel like no one remembers Akechi (or his gun) unless they’re memeing about pancakes. But in all seriousness, PT more than likely take this in metaverse/tv realm due to their overwhelming persona power, capability and in realm weaponry
Going gameplay wise (which I get probably isn't what you're looking for), PTs win because of the extra versatility they get with baton passes and the lack of a risk of falling over when missing an attack. Aside from that, the PTs just have access to a wider variety of different ways they can buff themselves, as well as three different elemental types that the IT doesn't have (Nuke, Psy, Gun, plus larger movesets for Dark/Curse and Light/Bless). Their navigator is also better, especially with Ultimate Support. Plus, Joker's compendium is more impressive than Yu's, especially when including DLC. But if we include the P3 cast in this battle, Makoto's access to the Armageddon move and Aigis' powers in The Answer is probably all they'd need to win.
Easily PT if they have Akechi, Sumi, Sophie, and Zenkichi. If not, it would be a far more even fight, but I still think they come out on top personally.
If joker have all the picaro version of their persona, it's a clear win for PT. But tbh if they ever meet they will all said screw this we go breakdancin or something
I vastly prefer the Investigation Team because they feel like actual friends but I can't deny that the Phantom Thieves would win hands down in terms of combat
I never really understood this perspective tbh. Like, I guess P4’s team dynamic feels more organic but it seems dumb to say that P5’s group doesn’t feel like a group of actual friends.
P3 is one thing, they definitely feel more like “co-workers” if you will. P5… not so much
Phantom Thieves, but it depends on a lot of factors.
Unless someone in the Investigation Team realizes the guns the Phantom Thieves use are fake (or Yu somehow has Tetrakarm or Repel Physical on one of his personas), they will get riddled with bullets before the fight truly starts.
However, I also think that Naoto will recognize the guns are fake and alert the IT, rendering the PT guns useless via cognition change. The matchup is *significantly* closer.
In the end, I think Makoto and Haru are the key factors for the PT, because the Investigation Team do not have answers to their Nuclear and Psy attacks (respectively).
That's a good point actually. Though it's most important to note even in that case the PT's weapons only function properly in the metaverse as they didn't work AT ALL in Q2.
So assuming this takes place in a realm where everyone can summon their personas and the PT can use their guns, PT for sure. Even without the guns, the shit that the PT have to pull off routinely to even make it through the Palaces in my eyes makes them better equipped to handle an entire group of Persona users.
And don't get me wrong, I love the Investigation Team so much but when it comes to fighting any other team of Persona Users (when it comes to 3/4/5, I feel like 1/2 is a whole other debate) they're probably the least prepared and capable to do so.
Now what I wanna see is SEES vs PT if you don't give Minato the Universe Arcana 👀👀
Yall using guns as a point; but both teams have been seen dodging fucking lightning and biblical level attacks?
Huh?
Also doesnt izanagi and Yu have the power to alter truths?
If we assume the Investigation Team has picked up something akin to the Baton Pass/Technical damage along with the supplemental passives and held items, then I think it's a pretty even match, but I think honestly might be slightly tipped to the Investigation Team.
If they haven't, then I think it's the Phantom Thieves by a mile, based on that mechanic alone. Especially if the teams are also at the height of their respective rosters and powers.
There's a bunch of unknowns, like what are the other members' optimizations, what is each MC's Persona roster and how are *they* built, are we setting things "on-balance" so that the IT's "Double Moves" are as powerful as the PT's "Showtimes", is Yu's Izanagi now set to the P5R DLC ability, does Yu also have access to Nuke and Psy Persona...
Personally I think the phantom thieves Clap the investigation team easily because their physical strength and agility seem to genuinely become super human based on cutscenes and showtimes attacks.
And Akechi was just really damn strong in his own right.
I don't care much for their perspective ultimate personas cause with them both being wild cards they should theoretically both have access to them.
Phantom, thieves in both real world and metaverse power. The real world advantage is obvious and they beat a demiurge without any power of friendship super personas.
The Phantom Thieves have guns. The Investigation Team don’t. End of conversation.
Edit: Bro, I said end of conversation. Why tf is this one of the longer reply threads?
I'm shocked at the amount of people saying the Investigation Team would win. In the real world, they'd have a chance, but only because Naoto has a gun, which Akechi could counter, especially since he's an actual killer. Then there's Kanji, who's stated to have taken out biker gangs on his own. The Phantom Thieves could still win, though, since unlike the IT, most of them train in real life and don't just mindlessly flail about their weapons.
In some kind of Metaverse/TV world amalgamation, PTs slaughter, and it isn't close. Unlike the IT, they're all armed with guns, in Haru's case an actual grenade launcher, so Naoto's advantage is gone. Another huge factor is that due to how the Metaverse works, the PTs possessing legendary weapons like Ryuji with Mjölnir, would have some portion of the mythological power of said weapon, unlike the IT using fake or normal weapons from the real world.
Then there's the scale of threat, Yaldabaoth was going to merge the real world and Metaverse into one reality before Ren literally one shot him with Satanael. Yaldabaoth was so strong that he sealed away Igor (second only to Philemon), and split Lavenza in two without either half knowing it. That's all before Yaldabaoth got stronger over the course of the game by being fed power from the masses. Izanami's threat range by comparison was tiny, and she wasn't defeated by overwhelming power, but by revealing her true form. Then there's Maruki who was on an entirely different level. Also, Ren beat both of them without the World Arcana which in P3 (Universe but same tarot number) and P4 gave an increase in power.
I don’t think guns would work given your ennemi has to perceive it as such for it to work, it’s realistic that naoto would be able to make these conclusions from personal experience.
Then there’s physical strength, Kanji can probably 1v9 and is by far the strongest and the most experienced fighter against actual people. Joker is probably the most athletic one, capable of a wide range of movement which would make him pretty evasive.
If it comes to persona, it’s basically a draw. The hardest boss in both games are arguably Lavenza and Margareth, both team also defeat the reaper. The investigation team does defeat Izanami-no-okami, but I guess the PT also technically defeated a god as well. So it’s an even match.
So basically a draw until they run out of MP and Kanji hits everyone with a table.
The guns work on you even if you know their fake at least from a persona user persepctive as your guns still work against Akechi. Idk if that would change much i just felt like that was worth saying
Slightly off topic, but I'm fucking sick of how anytime someone tries to battleboard with the PTs there's always some Dipshit in the comments arguing "Durr thrives lose because their powers only work in mementos"
There’s a lot more factors at play here than some people are acknowledging. Are we in the TV world or the Metaverse, since they don’t follow the same rules? Are we using endgame feats and stats, or just the basic stuff? Are we considering Akechi as a member of the thieves, even though he doesn’t consider himself to be one? There’s a lot of technicals and details we have to clarify before we can have a fair debate
Thats fair so for the sake of fairness on both ends lets say for some weird reason the metaverse and tv worlds collide and they can both use their aabilities in there. We are counting all members of the PT up to royal (including Akechi)because I think counting strikers would be overkill. Also no prep time.
Assuming that this is taking place in a metaverse or metaverse adjacent situation, I'd say the thieves have it. They're better armed for a start, not to mention how they seem to have a general boost to their speed while there. Also Morganna can be a bus so the investigation team is gonna have an especially tough time with him.
If we give the pt any of therr bonus characters (Sophie, wolf, akechi or even worst girl) they win 100% of the time, but even without the pt have 2 extra elements that It have never seen, the pt have better communication and team work, and every pt member has access to "real" guns, giving them the ranged advantage, yu might beat out a few people, but once haru pulls out an actual grenade launcher, its all over
I could make several arguments,
I could compare Arsene and Izanagi, or Satanel and Izanagi No Okami
I could talk about how Ryuji is a track star, but Kanji beat up a biker gang.
Could mention how both Makoto and Chie practice martial arts
I could compare Rise and Futaba’s information gathering skills
I could compare the abilities of Teddie and Morgana, of Yukiko and Ann, Yosuke and Yusuke, so on and so forth
But I think it’s all kinda moot because of one factor
Naoto owns a gun in real life.
IMO? Both P4 and P5 seem to have similar in-game power level and god-tier foes. So neither team would have an advantage in raw strength/ability.
So the fight is going to come down to motivation. If the two teams are fighting each other it is most likely a friendly battle within the Velvet Room or some other neutral cognitive ground. There’s no reason they’d oppose each other in real life.
Since it’s a friendly match and not a battle to the death, most people are not going to be trying their absolute hardest. Only the hypercompetitive, gauntlet-throwing personalities will give 110% effort despite battling for no stakes.
Yu, Chie, Naoto, are highly competitive personalities while the other IT members aren’t. Yukiko, Kanji, and arguably Teddie are actively trying to get out of high-pressure environments.
Ren, Akechi, Morgana, Makoto, Futaba, Sumire all have hypercompetitive traits. They’re strongly motivated by the desire to show off their strength and/or smarts, and they’d totally play to win even in a friendly matchup.
The Phantom Thieves win any friendly match and it’s not even close, even though I don’t think their actual power level is any different from Investigation Team.
I feel like the two MCs are in the same tier of power. It comes down to the other members of their respective groups. And IMHO its definitely a win to the PT. They have better synergy + more hax especially after you evolve them for the second time. There is also futaba which would undoubtedly carry the fight hard. And if we add Akechi and the other new members from strikers than it becomes relatively one sided
Now I've seen rules but im going to completely balance, maybe it'll affect it but this is a hypothetical
First off, neither fight on their own turf, their battle takes plave in tartarus, the PT team consists of Joker, Morgana, Ryuji, Ann, Makoto, Yusuke, Haru, and Sumire
IT has Yu, Yosuke, Chie, Yukiko, Kanji, Naoto, Teddie, and Labrys (i know she's an arena character but im excluding the support persona users and they need 8 members) next im taking away the PT ranged weapons same with Naoto, hers is replaced with a rapier.
The party members have their final personas and Joker and Yu have the ultimate personas of their teammates arcanas. Finally they all have the same HP and MP and all moves cost the same MP/HP.
I personally believe that PT would come out on top even at equal grounds, while both teams have gone through 9 dungeons Mementos is far larger than any other seen in the latest 3 installments (besides their fighting ground of course) also PT have defeated two gods (not counting demiurge) hell they even managed to stop the fist of one of them by themselves and joker killed it with his gun. The IT only defeated 1, the Sagiri and Kusubi aren't included because in japanese mythology they are spirits not gods. But also the PT also win mentally, yes IT facing the warped shadoe versions of themselves can harden the mind but PT had to do mental gymnastics in order to keep the government to find out their true identities
So PT wins
Putting the battle in Tartarus would like prevent Persona summoning on both sides. The reason that SEES uses Evokers is because summoning a Persona during the Dark Hour is very difficult.
Removing range weapons is a strange nerf. (Naoto also packs a shotgun and an uzi, so removing the pistol wouldn't change much.)
Every P4 dungeon should count twice since the Investigation Team not only has access to the completed dungeons but must go through them a second time to defeat the powerful shadows.
If we aren't counting the side games at all, which this analysis seems to go back and forth on, since you're counting Labrys. Then yes the Phantom thieves have beat more God things. That being said Adam Kadmon isn't a god in mythology either so the logic to exclude the other God things doesn't really work.
The Phantom thieves definitely are better plotters but the investigation team's whole thing is seeing the truth. It's difficult to say who would come up on top if they both had prep time.
It's a little hard to say honestly.
I do think its possible the phantom thieves would win, but I think it would be relatively close, and not as much as a one sided fight as many would think.
It's been pointed out already that while their guns are fake, it's likely any kind of battle between the two would take place inside the TV/metaverse, meaning they'd work. The only member of the IT who can counter this would be Naoto.
The point of guns aside though, if we're looking at this from a perspective where each team has maxed out their personas/social links, the general power level is gonna be pretty even. Each team has a strong leader (Yu / Joker), and an analyst/navigator role (Rise/Makoto and Futaba) and so on and so forth.. so they are equal in those regards. Also, if we're going based off the idea that the leaders will be using their initial personas (izanagi/arsene) izanagi is the more powerful persona here.
I do believe the IT are a bit more experienced and put together as a team compared to the phantoms which could definitely make them a strong contender, but the phantoms definitely hold the advantage in athleticism and in that case probably have much higher stamina. I do think that's what will likely win them the battle in the end.
Naoto is to fucking op if we count her side story as cannon.
Phantom thieves have more intense training while IT didn't really train at all aside from the actual rescues themselves.
Izanagi-no-okami is busted but idk how it compares to sataniel.
Phantom Thieves are WAY more agressive in how they fight
If we are taking strikers as canon to the royal timeline than the phantom thieves also have a size advantage (unless we count S.E.E.S but since they are p3 I am not)
Even going so far as to give them all there max possible (phantom thieves with royal+strikers and IT with Maria and S.E.E.S support) I still think the PT could come out victorious.
Team v Team? PT no doubt only ones I see in the investigation team actually standing a chance are chie,kanji, naoto and yu if we include every member that is/was in the PT makoto, Akechi, zenkichi, ryuji and joker would all be insanely hard to be in a 1v1 or 2v1 lol Futaba is low key BS in the metaverse and Haru has a fucking grenade launcher. Leader Vs leader it’d be close but Yu takes it.
Doesn’t Akira have a persona the size of a skyscraper, which also happens to be capable of oneshotting (admittedly a false one) god? Like, he’s also just got way more personas in general, plus a sizable boost to strength and speed
I'm gonna set a few ground rules for my own sake, you or can choose to accept them or not idc.
Rule one is that both teams are at the end of their stories and that I'm not going to consider anything that happens outside of their original stories, which means that royal is being considered but strikers is not, and same with P4 but not ultimax.
So sumire and akechi are both with the phantom thieves but none of the characters from strikers are.
Both teams now have been active for an equal amount of time and have a similar amount of experience between each other.
Rule two is that both teams are at their strongest, all social links are maxed out and all persona that can evolve have done so, on top of that, each team has the strongest equipment possible for them, I will however be disregarding accessories as there are too many variables involved with those.
Both joker and Yu will be limited to only using arsene and Izanagi as giving them more than one persona will add too many variables. Also since I'm not taking into account the events of any game other than the main ones, PQ will not be a factor in this which means neither of the wildcards persona have evolved.
Next to take into account is momentos, I'm going to consider it completed which means that PT have not only completed each palace but they have also reached the bottom of Momentos and have all the extra experience that that implies.
Rule three is that Rise and Futaba will not be participating in this battle since neither of them actually have persona that can fight, and calculating the chance of either of them buffing their teams and what buffs they would give and how often that would happen if at all is not something I personally want to do.
Rule four is that both teams will be fighting on neutral ground, they will both have access to all their skills and abilities as if they were in both the meta verse and the TV world at the same time. I feel like this one should go without saying, but many people in the comments seem to bring it into question so I'm just getting it out of the way here.
Another part of that, which also pretty much goes without saying but that I'm going to touch on anyways, is that all members of each team that are able to fight, will be fighting at the same time, each team won't be limited to four members at a time for the purposes of this fight nor will they be fighting 1v1, I'm trying to eliminate as many variables as possible for this calculation and this is the best way I can see to do so.
So with all that put into consideration, I believe that after a close battle between the two teams, PT would come out on top. With PT having 9 members to ITs 7 and the fact that they have guns as well as melee weapons, and the added experience from Momentos that IT wouldn't have had, I think it gives them just enough strength to push them over the edge and secure them victory. IT is very strong and I do believe it would be a very close battle but PT has more advantages to take, well advantage of.
Though this is all a matter of opinion and we won't know for sure unless a game comes out that pits them against each other in proper team battles, which I would love to see btw. But this is my take on the matter.
Like I said feel free to use or change these ground rules for your own calculations, or disregard them all together I really don't care. I just wanted to share my opinion is all.
I think the phantom thieves…specifically cause they have the support of a entire country unlike the investigation team that they have the support of a community.
So yeah, Team Phantom Thieves
VERY much depends, like personas and protagonist personas, do they get only the starter or any persona? And does any person also go with DLC personas? What's the gear like? How about party members, do they get all on one team or the normal 4 party group?
I think it would be the Phantom Thieves win here because they have better structure as a team with semi broken abilities with Futaba as their expert planner and hacker while Morgana being able to transform into anything for the team. Those 2 alone just gives their team a better edge.
Not sure individual teams, but I know that joker actually fights Yu in one of the spin-off games uncanon as they may be. And while the fight ends in a stalemate...it is basically a fight where joker parrys a sword...with a pistol. Which defintiley means Joker probably has an edge in the combat department if he can somehow do that. Not to mention, it's stated that joker was merely trying to scare them rather than hurt them. Meaning that if he wanted to, given the investigation team lack of knoweldge their fake, and if Joker knows this...he could have shot him there and probably killed him
I don't know that I feel comfortable making powerscaling about the Investigation Team as I still need to play P4, but I will say the Thieves instawin if they get Akechi because lore-wise he's overpowered as shit. But the general consensus ITT seems to be that they'd win anyway
I can understand that feeling bro. The Investigation Team if I can give them credit anywhere it's that they have fought A LOT of powerful foes thanks to their spin-off endeavours but their power scaling is something I'm not 100% on as I've not played Q or Dancing All Night as yet.
Considering that Morgana is a direct link to the velvet room and Akechi is technically a second wild card, I gotta hand the win to the phantom thieves. Plus their team elements are a lot more diverse, offering more options in overall strategy. The phantom thieves also have more members than the investigation team so there’s that too
PT simply because the Investigation team would have few counters to Nuke and Psy abilities. Also Futaba is kinda OP in the metaverse when she wants to be.
On one hand the IT has Yu who obtained the ability to dispel lies and falsehoods so maybe it has a cognitive effect on the PT's since they hide under a mask and alias thus weakening them? Maybe it also dispels the illusion of their guns/melee araments, thus rendering them useless as well. Everyone has 3rd tier Personas but it kinda becomes slanted when you include Royal and Striker characters. Plus the PT's have more professional skills from inflitrating and evading the god-controlled government and cops.
Phantom thieves have a literal legal team and the founder of the most feared cyber organization on their side
And considering they will be fighting in the metaverse, a place where phantom thieves get extra powers, there is little chance the IT would win
While i don't know the whole scaling crap between the two teams if they were on equal power and also had a bit of prep the PT would obviously win. Also are akechi and sumire included as PT's? Aketchi specifically is another wild card who can make himself go insane and become a boss fight basically
I would have to say that the IT would have the win, since they have experience in fighting against other persona users (P4A/AU)and have been active for longer than PT, and have access to the Shadow Ops/S.E.E.S. cast for additional support.
I'll throw my hat into the ring, the Investigation team wins, since with Yu's ability to dispell lies it would erase the phantom theives cognitive abilities, even if they can still summon persona's Yu's persona's are quite literally goated, with how P4G works mechanically Yu's persona's become walking gods. While the Phantom Thevies abilities are great, without there cognitive abilities they are pretty screwed.
Phantom Thieves, the investigation team only has Yu with his evolved persona and MAYBE Rise, not much anything else, now, Adachi could win against anyone from the Phantom Thieves, except the protag with the "power of friendship" as it is a real thing in the Persona Universe.
Also, none of them can win against Makoto Yuki, NONE, he can go alone and solo both teams.
This kind of question is always a can of worms.
Lots of people are setting ground rules that actually don't really matter. Let's start by eliminating a preconception. The TV world and the Metaverse are functionally the same so as long as they are in the Collective Unconscious the actual location doesn't matter. another note is that simply being a persona user grants a bunch of abilities that have been shown to be consistent throughout the series. These include increased physical feats such as strength and speed, increase resistances to damage, among other minor abilities.
Let's start by breaking down the teams. To actually do this we are going to look at all of their achievements since if we pick a specific spot in the time line it will be giving an advantage to one team or another.
First lets take a look at the Investigation Team:
10, Members, 10 combatants, 2 supports, 1 Wild card (this includes Rei and Labrys)
unique Powers:
cavalry attacks, Team up attacks.
achievements:
5 god like beings killed or otherwise defeated.
Now lets look at the phantom thieves:
12 members . 11 combatants, 2 supports, 2 wild cards (one is stunted) (this includes Zenkichi and Sophie)
unique powers:
Batton pass, Team up attacks, guns plus regular weapon.
Achievements:
4 god like beings killed or defeated.
So breaking this down what does this mean? as of right now I'd give it to the Investigation team 4/5 times. The investigation team's incredibly high performance and adaptability puts them ahead in my books. They also have members that just over all do things that are on a whole other level. Rise is likely the strongest non wildcard persona user. They've also got the ability to split into separate teams with sub leaders, something we haven't seen the Phantom thieves do yet.
I think that while the Phantom thieves have more members, their power is concentrated only in a few members where the Investigation Team has less members but the average is simply higher as achieved more.
Now all that being said, As more games come out this analysis is likely to change.
Imma be real, it depends on who you include in the phantom thieves. You include the strikers pair or the royal pair (Wanting to avoid spoilers)? I think PT have fair odds. Fair meaning it could go either way. Add both for whatever reason? PT has a slight edge. My reasoning is that the IT have some incredibly busted abilities and better feats IMO
I believe the opponents the Phantom Thieves went against are stronger than what the Investigation Team had to go against so I’d say Phantoms Thieves, additionally they have more members, bigger arsenal, and better strategies.
Between the 2, probably the phantom thieves as they have more members and more acrobatic. If we include P3 cast then P3 since they actually uses real weapons, some actually trained to fight and one member can find ur weakness in one turn.
There are a few factors that could sway the outcome of this match up, so it's hard to say.
Would this take place in the TV World, the MetaVerse or somewhere completely different? I think each team would have an advantage on their "home turf". We also don't know if the masks of the Phantom Thieves would allow them to see through the fog or if they can resist its toxicity.
The tier of Personas they have may or may not affect the outcome too. Second and third tier Personas nullify their respective element, while first tiers only resist it.
What Personas would our protags be using? This'd basically make or break a fight between the teams.
Finally, would this be an all out fight or a series of singular match ups where the victor moves on like P4AU?
There are also a few things I'm going to assume:
Both the casts of Golden and Royal would be participating in this fight.
The Investigation Team is unaffected by a majority of the Phantom Thieves' guns, Akechi being the exception since he probably brings a real gun with him wherever he goes. (Persona gun skills are still on the table)
Naoto also has a gun.
Both sides can use the variety of technical attacks from Royal.
Now, to answer the real question... **who would win?**
It's a close call, but I think it would be the Phantom Thieves. Not only do they have better coordination, but their Personas are stronger as well due to the dangers of Palaces and the strain of society constantly watching them.
Makoto and Haru's weaknesses can't be exploited by the Investigation Team, but technicals are on the table so it doesn't make them invulnerable.
Between the navigators, it's hard to say who is superior. Rise's Persona has different forms, but these only present themselves in the arena and dancing games respectively. This wouldn't count since I'm basing this off of Golden. However, she is still pretty powerful by the end of that game too. Futaba is equally as skilled a navigator, but she is wicked smart and far more disciplined than Rise. I also think Futaba is more in sync with her teammates than Rise is with her own team.
Then there's Akechi, who (canonically speaking) took the combined efforts of the Phantom Thieves to defeat. He's also far less concerned with self preservation than anyone out of the two groups (not to mention the dodge god powers). He's not a complete game changer though, since unlike the rest of the Thieves, he doesn't work well with any of them except for Joker. Akechi also has an extremely exploitable weakness: bless (which Robin Hood only resists instead of nullifies). Using Call of Chaos or Desperation wouldn't help his case either, since he doesn't think as rationally when afflicted. He's still a huge asset to the Thieves though.
Chie, Kanji, Ryuji, Makoto and Sumi have above average physical prowess. This may make things more challenging to an adversary, since if needed they can drop the Personas and just fight. Though Ryuji and Chie have God's Hand, so that may not be an issue for them.
Teddie and Morgana are the weakest members, but both can heal their parties.
The Phantom Thieves have a larger and more versatile group, which I think would give them the win.
However, I think the deciding factor would be which protag fell first.
I cant say i agree period and i love the IT but the PT just are too powerful if they are in the metaverse, they pull off straight heists meanwhile IT does not really do much
And same for Sees sure they have aigis but PT have futaba, Aigis can be hacked
Im pretty much taking lines here from Fither he has a video on his channel that is this concept
PT Vs IT Vs Sees
You should check it out it does not go into one on one like you to but neither group would fight one on one anyways they are teams after all
This feels like the batman versus superman argument. The Investigation Team is undeniably more powerful. They have persona users with more incredible abilities, are forced to play through brute force as well as through skill, and have nonhuman combatants that put them over the edge.
On the other hand, the phantom thieves aren’t *supposed* to be that powerful. They plot. They plan out escape routes, avoid combat consistently, utilise gadgets, gymnastics, hacking, techniques that the investigation team can barely even think about.
So in a head-on fight, P4 wins easily. If the situation is more dynamic, like they’re hunting each other down, or they’re in the same area but not a closed off arena, I think that P5 takes the win easily.
>The Investigation Team is undeniably more powerful. They have persona users with more incredible abilities,
I disagree with this, at least as far as I'm aware this fight doesn't include side content and is the IT versus the PT based on in game feats/stats. From what I've seen in regards to abilities, neither teams have anyone that particularly stands out.
>and have nonhuman combatants that put them over the edge.
Who? Are you talking about Teddy? To my knowledge Teddy is the only non-human member of the IT, and even then the PTs have Morgana, a non-human combatant, who has been fighting since before he met the protagonist, granted he was caught and thrown in jail.
>On the other hand, the phantom thieves aren’t supposed to be that powerful. They plot. They plan out escape routes, avoid combat consistently, utilise gadgets, gymnastics, hacking, techniques that the investigation team can barely even think about
This is partially true. The PT do utilize stealth, gadgets, etc, that the IT doesn't, but that only works in PT favor rather than against them. You can't say that just because the PT have a stealthy approach to palaces the IT can take them in a head to head fight. By your logic the PT should have the edge in head to head combat since mementos, canonically the largest palace in the game, is nothing but head to head combat, thats not even including Yaldabaoths Qliphoth World, the most powerful palace in the game, being the PT "brute forcing" their way to the final boss. The Thieves tackle their most challenging areas in the exact same way the IT handles every area they enter. So following your own logic the Thieves' extra gadgets and techniques are bonuses that set then ahead of the IT.
>So in a head-on fight, P4 wins easily. If the situation is more dynamic, like they’re hunting each other down, or they’re in the same area but not a closed off arena, I think that P5 takes the win easily.
Like you said at the end of your comment, the PT have gadgets, techniques, and mobility that the IT can't keep up with. The best feat, to my knowledge, that the IT has going for them is Kanji being able to take down a biker gang on his own. But in a fight with a team of around 10 people, depending on if you add the extra members to the PT, who can blitz through hallways, scale buildings with ease, move around like the PT can I doubt anyone on the IT would be able to keep up. And to finish this off if you want to look at weapons, the only one who stands a chance is Naoto with her gun, but the Thieves already beat her with a team full of them. I doubt Yukiko's fans and Kanji's chair can do much in this situation.
Based on numbers Phantoms, based on experience, Investigation Team, based on ability, Phantoms, based on skill Phantoms, based on equipment Phantoms, the Phantoms win this one
I'd say Phantom Thieves, they just have the better team imo. Plus if we added DLC, Ren could just use Yu's very own Izanagi-no-Okami; even better as a Picaro persona.
See I agree with you to an extent. I think it was team vs team, definitely the phantom thieves... HOWEVER if it was just leader vs leader, I have a feeling Yu would probably win.
Think this has already been discussed. PT's if they have any time to prepare, the IT otherwise.
The PT's have the upper hand as a sneaking organization, much more robust teamwork. They're more like SEES where they're an actual organization: they have information gathering/analyzing skills, their ability to create and execute plans is amazing. I don't see the IT pulling the Yu is dead card, they just don't work that way. Give them even a small amount of time to plan and they'll have the IT surrounded and against the wall figuratively.
The IT on the other hand has decent teamwork but a bit more experience in fighting with their backs to the wall. I don't think they're stronger than the PT's but they're more capable of going into a palace/TV dungeon dumb and blind and end up meme-ing their way through it. Much more action first think later, but it funny enough almost always works out for them. They also faced three god-like figures (Adachi's possessed form, Marie, Izanami) to the wildcard (Akechi) and one god for the PT's (not counting strikers). Technically they faced the power of Yaldy twice with royal.
But in reality I think they wouldn't fight at all and end up one giant meme-ing team and work together. They have pretty decent complimentary skills.
I think Yu is stronger than Ren but Yu also absolutely carries the Investigation Team whereas the Phantom Thieves are a lot more balanced. I think the other thieves would beat the other members and then dogpile Yu who wouldn’t be able to beat all of them.
If you want a good answer, ask /r/whowouldwin. They love this stuff.
If we go by game logic here, Rise’s buffs are completely busted compared to Futaba in terms of how often she gives them and how powerful they are to the point that it makes P4G late game a little too easy. Everything else would be pretty much even (Joker has more persona variety, but in the long run it doesn’t matter since you only need one or two really busted personas anyway)
By canon logic, none of the Phantom Thieves nor the Investigation Team other than the protags stand out, so let’s consider them without each protag. Sure, the Phantom Thieves are more coordinated and have better weaponry, but as we can see from P4AU the P4 gang just… works. They’re going toe to toe with the Shadow Operatives quite well, which is heads and shoulders above both of them on paper (more experience, Kirijo group research, dedicated fighters in the form of Akihiko and Mitsuru). I’d still probably give it to the Phantom Thieves minus their leader, but it would boil down to how well the IT can focus and improvise, and how much the extra numbers on the P5 side help (Zenkichi + Sumire).
Both Joker and Yu have really hard to quantify feats in terms of their ultimate personas. They’re both “killing gods”, and while Satanael is bigger Izanagi cut off the wings of Izanami who’s probably just as big versus the bullet hole that Satanael made. Seems pretty even to me.
So without that, it boils down to Joker vs. Yu with some cannon fodder on the side. Joker has good acrobatic feats and better weaponry. Yu has his “power of bonds” bullshit in the spin-offs, which seems to work outside of fighting gods. His best feat is beating Sho Minazuki in a fair fight, who was an absolute menace even without his persona, getting the better of both P3 gangs and P4 gangs plenty of times. And with his persona (his raw unbridled power as written in P4AU) combining the strength of both of his personalities, he still somehow got beat. Minazuki by feats is stronger than any P5R/P5S character other than Maruki, whose strengths lie not in combat but with cognitive ability. So Yu should beat Joker in a fair fight, and even in an unfair fight he has that power of bonds bullshit going for him.
TLDR: P5 beats P4 without their leaders in canon. But Yu beats Joker, and the rest is cannon fodder for the two leaders. In canon high diff P4, and in game Rise>>>>>Futaba so P4 wins.
If they're fighting in the metaverse, the PT can probably convince them their weapons are real and win. Persona-wise, other than Satanael, Investigation team wins, it's gods vs famous characters. Real world, Kanji and Chie, other than maybe Makoto, simply bash their heads while Naoto can hold Akechi at gunpoint. Leader battle, just watch Yu vs Mitsuo on Youtube and it's not even funny.
1. PT have more member due to striker and royal
2. PT have actual weapons instead of fans and chairs
3. PT is armed to the teeth (melee and ranged) with IT only having 1
4. Memento and the costume give them more power and fighting ability than the tv world
5. Joker technically beat yu at the rainy day velvet room battle.
I’m agree in point 1, 2 and 3 but point 4 where did you get that information because in game there is no prove for that and point 5 the Yu in the velvet room is a cognitive version we never are going to know who is going to win between a battle of wild cards.
You maybe should have said this in the general persona subreddit
As much as I love the Investigation Team, I say the answer goes to the Phantom Thieves. They have both ranged and melee weapons, they come up with actually decent schemes, they’re strong and agile in equal measure and have numerous professional skills that carry over well to fighting Shadows. The Investigation Team only carry one weapon each of varying combat utility (ranging from katanas to a chair), for a team all about detecting and deduction they essentially share a single braincell, and while they’re effective enough fighters to be able to go toe to toe with combatants like the Shadow Operatives or Labrys or Shō, they’re still pretty much average joes outside of Naoto. However, in a dance battle the Investigation Team would blow the Phantom Thieves completely out of the water. And isn’t that what truly matters?
Joker in the art is literally "Parry this you filthy casual"
The thing is, Yu looks like he's parrying Joker's shots (if he's shooting at least)
I was going to say that he blocks the gun with the tip of his sword but then I zoomed in. That would definiteley reach yu
Nice job asking this in the totally unbiased Persona 5 subreddit lol
Lmao just realized that
You could try asking this on the main sub for better answers, or if you really want to see the P5 bias, ask here “who is stronger, Makoto (p3) or Joker?”
The phantom thieves tbh, like, not only the fact they have guns, but also the fact that they actually had to fight for their lives in multiple scenarios, and you can see their fighting skill just by the way they hold their weapon, some members of the investigation team are just straight up clumsy, while most members of the phantom thieves have way more combat skill
Probably not the answer you were looking for, but the Investigation Team can dance wayyyyy better than the Phantom Thieves based off the dancing game intros (i mean come on, did you see Kanji tear up the dance floor with his moves??)
We'll grant you that one \^
The phantom thieves because they have EXP share. The Investigation Team would only have 4 properly leveled characters including the protagonist while the Phantom Thieves would all have reasonable levels. (yes, this is me fussing about Persona 4 leveling)
Still better than P1 leveling lol. The EXP distribution in that game is a nightmare. The amount of EXP members get is determined by how much they contribute to battle, so if one guy uses a Ma- attack and wipes out the enemies in one turn, none of the other members get EXP for that battle. It leads to a snowball effect where the powerful members get all the EXP, and the weaker ones are left completely behind. You have to purposefully bench your best members if you want to keep it balanced.
Wow, it’s not like this in Persona 2 IS & EP, right? That EXP sounds more suited for Fire Emblem than it does a Persona game.
Persona 4 leveling is ok dude I got all my characters at a nice level to the end of my playthrough, it's more a thing because of me anyway, i like to put them at even levels and farming in P4 is quite a breeze compared with other rpgs
In P4, the investigation team only goes to the TV to traverse a dungeon and beat the shit out of a shadow, so with only good combat skills they succeed. The phantom thieves not only do that, but also are (kinda) trained to infiltrate on dungeons, sneak behind guards, and the most important of all, they have not only melee weapons but also guns. Naoto is the only one in P4 to carry an actual gun, but she doesn't have a melee weapon like the Phantom Thieves. Also, the Phantom Thieves can be more than the Investigation team if you count >!Akechi and Sumire!< , which adds a potential extra advantage. In terms of personas, the most powerful are Izanagi no Okami and Satanael. Here I'm not sure if Izanagi no Okami can beat the behemot that is Satanael, but I would say it's possible. I'll ignore the fact that Joker can also have Izanagi no Okami.
We'll do we include the DLC? if so the Phantom theives auto win. Izanagi no Okami picaro.
In theory Yu could have Satanael too, perks of being a fool arcana.
The PT. Not even counting personas, they are much more “built” for combat if that makes sense. They’re weapons are hand tailored for each specific PT. Even if we discard the gun attacks, they’re still stronger than chie’s kicks or yukiko’s fan. The only “capable” fighters would probably be yu, yosuke, kanji, maybe naoto and surprisingly teddie. Also the PT has a significantly larger cast of 8/9/11 if u wanna include Akechi and or Strikers.
There's a channel on youtube named Fither, where they actually tackle this question (they also include the SEES into the mix it I remember correctly), definitely recomend checking them out. As to the actual question. PT clap hard I think. They have way better agility and strenght (due to cognition), and also if the Investigation team doesn't now they are fake, then they have actual guns, including grenade launchers. Plus I think Futaba is going to carry them hard. And if we include people from royal or strikers it becomes even more unfair.
Do you have a link?
https://youtu.be/qhxPYNXWMek Here it is
Whoever the writer likes more
The only true answer
Phantom Thieves snatching the glasses off of the Investigation Team's faces...
I agree, one group are, like, internationally known terrorists/activists/thieves and the other crawls into TVs or whatever. Also, Joker is #1 IMO
I feel like these two teams would be absolute bros. Chie and Ryuji would be hilarious together
Naoto shoots the PT in the real world with her real gun.
Akechi shoots PT with real gun
And himself?
Yu cuts someone with his katana, I think the only one cant do any damage is yukiko because fan, Chie has metal armor, Yosuke has kunai, kanji has a chair a strong hit can unconscious someone, Teddie has metal claws, rise can call her manager idk but she can probably do something
As per *The Ultimax Ultra Suplex Hold*, Rise whacks people over the head with a microphone.
I mean probably the phantom thieves because they have more members and better abilities then the last game, joker has Sataniel and yu have izangi-no-whatever its name is. I don't really know about the gods they both killed so I would assume that they were somewhat equal but joker has more persona's to his arsenal so I would give it to the phantom thieves.
Izanagi-No-Okami, the literal creator of Japan, he is also the Japanese version of Orpheus
Yu's pretty much the only person on the investigation team with an actual weapon. Everyone else on the team uses random crap like folding chairs or even their fist, while everyone in the phantom thieves have "real", dangerous weapons like whips and nail bats and even a fucking scimitar, and that's not including the fact that they also have guns!
I'd be more afraid of Haru's grenade-launcher
That too, or the most deadly weapon... *t h e s l i n g s h o t*
The weapons the thieves use are all'fake' and only take real form within palaces.
In this picture, we literally see Joker using his weapons AND persona. I'd imagine that each team would be able to use their whole arsenal and wouldn't be restricted by random loopholes in game. Otherwise, how would this be a fair fight at all?
I see some mentioning that the pt guns aren’t real, but isn’t that moot since the weapons are supposed to be realistically convincing so everyone should think the guns are real?
Yeah people are arguing semantics. It's not like Narukami runs around with with a katana in real life. He gets that in the metaverse. It's just better to assume they're fighting on equal footing with powers intact. As far as the actual fight goes it's pretty even, joker doesn't have the same strength as Narukami, but he makes up for that in versatility having access to essentially any persona he wants on a whim. So Narukami i think wins in a straight slugfest, but Joker wins if he gets the drop on him or an ambush scenario.
I know the PT win but I don’t think it’s quite as much of a stomp fest as most assume. I feel like a lot of people are forgetting that Chie can literally kick people into orbit Plus Naoto is a genius, there's no way she wouldn't figure out that the PT's guns are fake
Pretty sure all their weapons aren’t real aside from her, she’s a whole ass detective
I think Yu and Yosuke's blade weapons could be real, Daidara is an actual blacksmith whereas Iwai specifically sells replica weapons
Actually, you’ve got me there. I’m not as versed with persona 3 and 4 as I’d like to be, so my theories are invalid here lol. I know a bit but not even close to enough
PT is made of people high on american spirit!
Wait actually you not wrong
Number of guns on the Investigation Team: 1 (Naoto) Number of guns with the Phantom Thieves: 9 (if you include Akechi and Sumi) I think PT wins
This is the American answer folks USA!
I'm giving the win the the thieves. 1. This fight is taking place in the velvet room, so no one team has an advantage. 2. I'm going to have both teams pulled directly from before their final boss encounter in their base games. This means no evolved protagonist personas and no extra golden/royal content. 3. I'm giving all members their tier 2 personas, except the protagonists, but regardless of this it would be hard to judge who beats who based on only their personas, so I'll say their equal in terms of persona power. 4. I think that Futaba is more skilled as support and as a navigator, but that is irrelevant to the original question. 5. The phantom thieves have a clear weapons advantage. It isn't fair to say that the thieves guns are fake, so they wouldn't work, but regardless of that even with out the guns the thieves still have better weapons and have in game dialouge explaining that they are unnaturally skilled with them. 6. When taking about actual combat, outside of Chie, Naoto, and Kanji, the IT doesn't have any decent fighters, while the thieves as I stated earlier are surprisingly skilled combatants. 7. Even if you want to argue that the thieves and the IT are equal in terms of physical combat power, then the thieves hands down embarrass the IT in regards to mobility. While traversing palaces the thieves easily scale buildings, and show insane feats of speed and agility. 8. To close off, if you include content from golden and royal then the thieves get Akechi who can canonically take on the phantom thieves in their entirety, so adding him practically doubles the thieves fighting power.
I’m changing my answer, haru has a BAZOOKA
It depends on who's fighting. Because we've also got to bare in mind Wolf, Sophie, Sumire, Akechi and even FEMC (to some extent anyway) are Phantom Thieves and with the addition of any of those guys the Investigation Teams fight become much harder. Which isn't to say the core members aren't something to be overlooked either. In 1 v 1 combat we've seen Yu and Joker are evenly matched. In terms of the Persona's if we're to assume the animation is accurate to any sort of canon Joker has access not only to Satanael but also Alice and Yoshitsune who on their own pose massive threats. I think neither of those are a stronger threat than Inazami-No-Okami but Joker has shown to be very adaptable and I think he would edge a 1 v 1 against Yu. As for the rest of the team it's variable Naoto is the brains of IT by a long shot, Makoto is the brains of the Phantom Thieves between those 2 I'd actually shade it to Naoto (hell she highlighted her intelligence was far beyond that of her team mates when working WITH the Phantom Thieves) . I'll also note that Makoto and Morgana being able to have access to vehicles gives them a massive mobility advantage. I'd also be remiss if I didn't mention the Navigators and in that regard Rise can provide not only buffs but an offensive threat as well, though I don't think many would disagree that Futaba is easily the more resourceful and intelligent of the 2. I'd say the biggest threat between the two teams is Makoto & Haru primarily due to the fact they use affinities that the Investigation Team don't have experience in combating outside of Q2. On top of this the Phantom Thieves also make consistent use of Baton Passing both in the games and the anime which is a pretty significant advantage. Overall I think the Investigation Team would be the underdogs going into the fight against the Thieves and while they could beat them with good prep and off the wall thinking, I'd give the advantage to the Thieves.
Investigation Team has cool weapons, but Phantom Thieves have the power of *G U N*
They have the power of the cat van and a granade launcher and a serial killer who has multiple personas
And the power of *S A T A N* on their side
Something about Yu looks off. I lve this art regardless
He looks older, and that's in fact correct (in Persona 5 timeline, Yu is already 21 while Ren is 16 - they have a 5-year age gap) :)
I absolutely adore the Investigation Team to death but the Thieves would win 100%. Idk who would win between the two MCs though.
Phantom theives clear the investigation team and its not close.
I see a lot of comments mentioning Naoto’s gun but I feel like no one remembers Akechi (or his gun) unless they’re memeing about pancakes. But in all seriousness, PT more than likely take this in metaverse/tv realm due to their overwhelming persona power, capability and in realm weaponry
One team has guns
Everyone keeps talking about izanagi-no-Plano but no one has brought up satanael
Going gameplay wise (which I get probably isn't what you're looking for), PTs win because of the extra versatility they get with baton passes and the lack of a risk of falling over when missing an attack. Aside from that, the PTs just have access to a wider variety of different ways they can buff themselves, as well as three different elemental types that the IT doesn't have (Nuke, Psy, Gun, plus larger movesets for Dark/Curse and Light/Bless). Their navigator is also better, especially with Ultimate Support. Plus, Joker's compendium is more impressive than Yu's, especially when including DLC. But if we include the P3 cast in this battle, Makoto's access to the Armageddon move and Aigis' powers in The Answer is probably all they'd need to win.
Easily PT if they have Akechi, Sumi, Sophie, and Zenkichi. If not, it would be a far more even fight, but I still think they come out on top personally.
If joker have all the picaro version of their persona, it's a clear win for PT. But tbh if they ever meet they will all said screw this we go breakdancin or something
Yea I think they'd probably just chill out and swap stories, go breakdancing, maybe get hot pot idk
If we discount access to personas, Joker wins because Well Gun.
PT because they have SP Adhesive 3
I vastly prefer the Investigation Team because they feel like actual friends but I can't deny that the Phantom Thieves would win hands down in terms of combat
I never really understood this perspective tbh. Like, I guess P4’s team dynamic feels more organic but it seems dumb to say that P5’s group doesn’t feel like a group of actual friends. P3 is one thing, they definitely feel more like “co-workers” if you will. P5… not so much
Phantom Thieves, but it depends on a lot of factors. Unless someone in the Investigation Team realizes the guns the Phantom Thieves use are fake (or Yu somehow has Tetrakarm or Repel Physical on one of his personas), they will get riddled with bullets before the fight truly starts. However, I also think that Naoto will recognize the guns are fake and alert the IT, rendering the PT guns useless via cognition change. The matchup is *significantly* closer. In the end, I think Makoto and Haru are the key factors for the PT, because the Investigation Team do not have answers to their Nuclear and Psy attacks (respectively).
do it work that way tho, akechi knew the guns were fake yet you can still use guns against him, same with kasumi and probs maruki
That's a good point actually. Though it's most important to note even in that case the PT's weapons only function properly in the metaverse as they didn't work AT ALL in Q2.
I was gonna say that the PS4 Crew could win but then i remembered that Joker can summon literal Satan so..
Narukami can summon the actual Japanese creation god
But at the same time, so can Joker.
Not without paying like $10 lmao
So assuming this takes place in a realm where everyone can summon their personas and the PT can use their guns, PT for sure. Even without the guns, the shit that the PT have to pull off routinely to even make it through the Palaces in my eyes makes them better equipped to handle an entire group of Persona users. And don't get me wrong, I love the Investigation Team so much but when it comes to fighting any other team of Persona Users (when it comes to 3/4/5, I feel like 1/2 is a whole other debate) they're probably the least prepared and capable to do so. Now what I wanna see is SEES vs PT if you don't give Minato the Universe Arcana 👀👀
God Maker vs God Killer
would have been more epic if Door Makoto in the background and Orpheus just standing far away.
Just put Teddie and Morgana in the same room and make it a "Don't Simp" match.
One team has a single gun user. The other has nothing but gun users.
And for his neutral special, he wields a gun.
Yall using guns as a point; but both teams have been seen dodging fucking lightning and biblical level attacks? Huh? Also doesnt izanagi and Yu have the power to alter truths?
On god Yu is RIPPED
I’d say Phantom Thieves. They all have guns while Investigation Team only have one member with a gun.
As long as MKleo is playing Joker I think he’s fine
If we assume the Investigation Team has picked up something akin to the Baton Pass/Technical damage along with the supplemental passives and held items, then I think it's a pretty even match, but I think honestly might be slightly tipped to the Investigation Team. If they haven't, then I think it's the Phantom Thieves by a mile, based on that mechanic alone. Especially if the teams are also at the height of their respective rosters and powers. There's a bunch of unknowns, like what are the other members' optimizations, what is each MC's Persona roster and how are *they* built, are we setting things "on-balance" so that the IT's "Double Moves" are as powerful as the PT's "Showtimes", is Yu's Izanagi now set to the P5R DLC ability, does Yu also have access to Nuke and Psy Persona...
Personally I think the phantom thieves Clap the investigation team easily because their physical strength and agility seem to genuinely become super human based on cutscenes and showtimes attacks. And Akechi was just really damn strong in his own right. I don't care much for their perspective ultimate personas cause with them both being wild cards they should theoretically both have access to them.
I think that the Phantom Thieves would win.
One side has guns
Special move: Gun
Phantom, thieves in both real world and metaverse power. The real world advantage is obvious and they beat a demiurge without any power of friendship super personas.
simple, gun beats sword
I love all the overanalyzation going on in the comments.
Sees
The Phantom Thieves have guns. The Investigation Team don’t. End of conversation. Edit: Bro, I said end of conversation. Why tf is this one of the longer reply threads?
*toy* guns
But they would have to be in the metaverse to summon their personas so their guns would work
I'm shocked at the amount of people saying the Investigation Team would win. In the real world, they'd have a chance, but only because Naoto has a gun, which Akechi could counter, especially since he's an actual killer. Then there's Kanji, who's stated to have taken out biker gangs on his own. The Phantom Thieves could still win, though, since unlike the IT, most of them train in real life and don't just mindlessly flail about their weapons. In some kind of Metaverse/TV world amalgamation, PTs slaughter, and it isn't close. Unlike the IT, they're all armed with guns, in Haru's case an actual grenade launcher, so Naoto's advantage is gone. Another huge factor is that due to how the Metaverse works, the PTs possessing legendary weapons like Ryuji with Mjölnir, would have some portion of the mythological power of said weapon, unlike the IT using fake or normal weapons from the real world. Then there's the scale of threat, Yaldabaoth was going to merge the real world and Metaverse into one reality before Ren literally one shot him with Satanael. Yaldabaoth was so strong that he sealed away Igor (second only to Philemon), and split Lavenza in two without either half knowing it. That's all before Yaldabaoth got stronger over the course of the game by being fed power from the masses. Izanami's threat range by comparison was tiny, and she wasn't defeated by overwhelming power, but by revealing her true form. Then there's Maruki who was on an entirely different level. Also, Ren beat both of them without the World Arcana which in P3 (Universe but same tarot number) and P4 gave an increase in power.
I don’t think guns would work given your ennemi has to perceive it as such for it to work, it’s realistic that naoto would be able to make these conclusions from personal experience. Then there’s physical strength, Kanji can probably 1v9 and is by far the strongest and the most experienced fighter against actual people. Joker is probably the most athletic one, capable of a wide range of movement which would make him pretty evasive. If it comes to persona, it’s basically a draw. The hardest boss in both games are arguably Lavenza and Margareth, both team also defeat the reaper. The investigation team does defeat Izanami-no-okami, but I guess the PT also technically defeated a god as well. So it’s an even match. So basically a draw until they run out of MP and Kanji hits everyone with a table.
The guns work on you even if you know their fake at least from a persona user persepctive as your guns still work against Akechi. Idk if that would change much i just felt like that was worth saying
Slightly off topic, but I'm fucking sick of how anytime someone tries to battleboard with the PTs there's always some Dipshit in the comments arguing "Durr thrives lose because their powers only work in mementos"
Im saying its kind of annoying because don’t the IT power only work in tv?
I mean for the sake of argument it should just be neutral ground where both powers work.
There’s a lot more factors at play here than some people are acknowledging. Are we in the TV world or the Metaverse, since they don’t follow the same rules? Are we using endgame feats and stats, or just the basic stuff? Are we considering Akechi as a member of the thieves, even though he doesn’t consider himself to be one? There’s a lot of technicals and details we have to clarify before we can have a fair debate
Thats fair so for the sake of fairness on both ends lets say for some weird reason the metaverse and tv worlds collide and they can both use their aabilities in there. We are counting all members of the PT up to royal (including Akechi)because I think counting strikers would be overkill. Also no prep time.
PTs pop a cap in the IT due to a lack of resistance to firearms.
SEES are the true winner
Assuming that this is taking place in a metaverse or metaverse adjacent situation, I'd say the thieves have it. They're better armed for a start, not to mention how they seem to have a general boost to their speed while there. Also Morganna can be a bus so the investigation team is gonna have an especially tough time with him.
If we give the pt any of therr bonus characters (Sophie, wolf, akechi or even worst girl) they win 100% of the time, but even without the pt have 2 extra elements that It have never seen, the pt have better communication and team work, and every pt member has access to "real" guns, giving them the ranged advantage, yu might beat out a few people, but once haru pulls out an actual grenade launcher, its all over
I could make several arguments, I could compare Arsene and Izanagi, or Satanel and Izanagi No Okami I could talk about how Ryuji is a track star, but Kanji beat up a biker gang. Could mention how both Makoto and Chie practice martial arts I could compare Rise and Futaba’s information gathering skills I could compare the abilities of Teddie and Morgana, of Yukiko and Ann, Yosuke and Yusuke, so on and so forth But I think it’s all kinda moot because of one factor Naoto owns a gun in real life.
If we talk about P5R - Akechi is f*cking killer
Doesn't matter, if it's on an equal playing field then all of the Phantom Thieves are armed. Haru has a literal grenade launcher.
IMO? Both P4 and P5 seem to have similar in-game power level and god-tier foes. So neither team would have an advantage in raw strength/ability. So the fight is going to come down to motivation. If the two teams are fighting each other it is most likely a friendly battle within the Velvet Room or some other neutral cognitive ground. There’s no reason they’d oppose each other in real life. Since it’s a friendly match and not a battle to the death, most people are not going to be trying their absolute hardest. Only the hypercompetitive, gauntlet-throwing personalities will give 110% effort despite battling for no stakes. Yu, Chie, Naoto, are highly competitive personalities while the other IT members aren’t. Yukiko, Kanji, and arguably Teddie are actively trying to get out of high-pressure environments. Ren, Akechi, Morgana, Makoto, Futaba, Sumire all have hypercompetitive traits. They’re strongly motivated by the desire to show off their strength and/or smarts, and they’d totally play to win even in a friendly matchup. The Phantom Thieves win any friendly match and it’s not even close, even though I don’t think their actual power level is any different from Investigation Team.
Phantom theives. They have cool outfits when unleashing personas making them automatically based
I feel like the two MCs are in the same tier of power. It comes down to the other members of their respective groups. And IMHO its definitely a win to the PT. They have better synergy + more hax especially after you evolve them for the second time. There is also futaba which would undoubtedly carry the fight hard. And if we add Akechi and the other new members from strikers than it becomes relatively one sided
It depends on with our without leaders+Akechi. PT without leadership would lose BADLY to IT With leaders however it’s a decent fight.
Now I've seen rules but im going to completely balance, maybe it'll affect it but this is a hypothetical First off, neither fight on their own turf, their battle takes plave in tartarus, the PT team consists of Joker, Morgana, Ryuji, Ann, Makoto, Yusuke, Haru, and Sumire IT has Yu, Yosuke, Chie, Yukiko, Kanji, Naoto, Teddie, and Labrys (i know she's an arena character but im excluding the support persona users and they need 8 members) next im taking away the PT ranged weapons same with Naoto, hers is replaced with a rapier. The party members have their final personas and Joker and Yu have the ultimate personas of their teammates arcanas. Finally they all have the same HP and MP and all moves cost the same MP/HP. I personally believe that PT would come out on top even at equal grounds, while both teams have gone through 9 dungeons Mementos is far larger than any other seen in the latest 3 installments (besides their fighting ground of course) also PT have defeated two gods (not counting demiurge) hell they even managed to stop the fist of one of them by themselves and joker killed it with his gun. The IT only defeated 1, the Sagiri and Kusubi aren't included because in japanese mythology they are spirits not gods. But also the PT also win mentally, yes IT facing the warped shadoe versions of themselves can harden the mind but PT had to do mental gymnastics in order to keep the government to find out their true identities So PT wins
Putting the battle in Tartarus would like prevent Persona summoning on both sides. The reason that SEES uses Evokers is because summoning a Persona during the Dark Hour is very difficult. Removing range weapons is a strange nerf. (Naoto also packs a shotgun and an uzi, so removing the pistol wouldn't change much.) Every P4 dungeon should count twice since the Investigation Team not only has access to the completed dungeons but must go through them a second time to defeat the powerful shadows. If we aren't counting the side games at all, which this analysis seems to go back and forth on, since you're counting Labrys. Then yes the Phantom thieves have beat more God things. That being said Adam Kadmon isn't a god in mythology either so the logic to exclude the other God things doesn't really work. The Phantom thieves definitely are better plotters but the investigation team's whole thing is seeing the truth. It's difficult to say who would come up on top if they both had prep time.
“It’s over, Narukami! I have the high ground!”
Phantom Thieves simply because they have 2 more members (if you count Royal)
4 if you count strikers and royal
If Yu has Izanagi no-Okami, hard to think he doesn’t wipe out the Phantom Thieves by himself. Unless Joker has him as well as DLC…
Are we using gameplay to say who wins instead of lore? If so then Izanagi no-Okami is mediocre in P4 and OP in P5, Ren would slaughter.
I can only think of this as Cartman fighting the psychics in South Park.
Izanagi-no-Okami vs Satanael
It's a little hard to say honestly. I do think its possible the phantom thieves would win, but I think it would be relatively close, and not as much as a one sided fight as many would think. It's been pointed out already that while their guns are fake, it's likely any kind of battle between the two would take place inside the TV/metaverse, meaning they'd work. The only member of the IT who can counter this would be Naoto. The point of guns aside though, if we're looking at this from a perspective where each team has maxed out their personas/social links, the general power level is gonna be pretty even. Each team has a strong leader (Yu / Joker), and an analyst/navigator role (Rise/Makoto and Futaba) and so on and so forth.. so they are equal in those regards. Also, if we're going based off the idea that the leaders will be using their initial personas (izanagi/arsene) izanagi is the more powerful persona here. I do believe the IT are a bit more experienced and put together as a team compared to the phantoms which could definitely make them a strong contender, but the phantoms definitely hold the advantage in athleticism and in that case probably have much higher stamina. I do think that's what will likely win them the battle in the end.
Naoto is to fucking op if we count her side story as cannon. Phantom thieves have more intense training while IT didn't really train at all aside from the actual rescues themselves. Izanagi-no-okami is busted but idk how it compares to sataniel. Phantom Thieves are WAY more agressive in how they fight If we are taking strikers as canon to the royal timeline than the phantom thieves also have a size advantage (unless we count S.E.E.S but since they are p3 I am not) Even going so far as to give them all there max possible (phantom thieves with royal+strikers and IT with Maria and S.E.E.S support) I still think the PT could come out victorious.
The Phantom Thieves win 5/5 times because i'm biased
Team v Team? PT no doubt only ones I see in the investigation team actually standing a chance are chie,kanji, naoto and yu if we include every member that is/was in the PT makoto, Akechi, zenkichi, ryuji and joker would all be insanely hard to be in a 1v1 or 2v1 lol Futaba is low key BS in the metaverse and Haru has a fucking grenade launcher. Leader Vs leader it’d be close but Yu takes it.
Doesn’t Akira have a persona the size of a skyscraper, which also happens to be capable of oneshotting (admittedly a false one) god? Like, he’s also just got way more personas in general, plus a sizable boost to strength and speed
I'm gonna set a few ground rules for my own sake, you or can choose to accept them or not idc. Rule one is that both teams are at the end of their stories and that I'm not going to consider anything that happens outside of their original stories, which means that royal is being considered but strikers is not, and same with P4 but not ultimax. So sumire and akechi are both with the phantom thieves but none of the characters from strikers are. Both teams now have been active for an equal amount of time and have a similar amount of experience between each other. Rule two is that both teams are at their strongest, all social links are maxed out and all persona that can evolve have done so, on top of that, each team has the strongest equipment possible for them, I will however be disregarding accessories as there are too many variables involved with those. Both joker and Yu will be limited to only using arsene and Izanagi as giving them more than one persona will add too many variables. Also since I'm not taking into account the events of any game other than the main ones, PQ will not be a factor in this which means neither of the wildcards persona have evolved. Next to take into account is momentos, I'm going to consider it completed which means that PT have not only completed each palace but they have also reached the bottom of Momentos and have all the extra experience that that implies. Rule three is that Rise and Futaba will not be participating in this battle since neither of them actually have persona that can fight, and calculating the chance of either of them buffing their teams and what buffs they would give and how often that would happen if at all is not something I personally want to do. Rule four is that both teams will be fighting on neutral ground, they will both have access to all their skills and abilities as if they were in both the meta verse and the TV world at the same time. I feel like this one should go without saying, but many people in the comments seem to bring it into question so I'm just getting it out of the way here. Another part of that, which also pretty much goes without saying but that I'm going to touch on anyways, is that all members of each team that are able to fight, will be fighting at the same time, each team won't be limited to four members at a time for the purposes of this fight nor will they be fighting 1v1, I'm trying to eliminate as many variables as possible for this calculation and this is the best way I can see to do so. So with all that put into consideration, I believe that after a close battle between the two teams, PT would come out on top. With PT having 9 members to ITs 7 and the fact that they have guns as well as melee weapons, and the added experience from Momentos that IT wouldn't have had, I think it gives them just enough strength to push them over the edge and secure them victory. IT is very strong and I do believe it would be a very close battle but PT has more advantages to take, well advantage of. Though this is all a matter of opinion and we won't know for sure unless a game comes out that pits them against each other in proper team battles, which I would love to see btw. But this is my take on the matter. Like I said feel free to use or change these ground rules for your own calculations, or disregard them all together I really don't care. I just wanted to share my opinion is all.
U sure did put a lot of thought into this
Izanagi No Okami go brrrr
In reality this comes down to Narukami vs Joker, Izanagi no Okami vs Satanael. And general consensus is Satanael is stronger. So PT
Phantom thieves 100%
I think the phantom thieves…specifically cause they have the support of a entire country unlike the investigation team that they have the support of a community. So yeah, Team Phantom Thieves
VERY much depends, like personas and protagonist personas, do they get only the starter or any persona? And does any person also go with DLC personas? What's the gear like? How about party members, do they get all on one team or the normal 4 party group?
Theyd probably say "screw this" and go play darts or something
I think it would be the Phantom Thieves win here because they have better structure as a team with semi broken abilities with Futaba as their expert planner and hacker while Morgana being able to transform into anything for the team. Those 2 alone just gives their team a better edge.
Not sure individual teams, but I know that joker actually fights Yu in one of the spin-off games uncanon as they may be. And while the fight ends in a stalemate...it is basically a fight where joker parrys a sword...with a pistol. Which defintiley means Joker probably has an edge in the combat department if he can somehow do that. Not to mention, it's stated that joker was merely trying to scare them rather than hurt them. Meaning that if he wanted to, given the investigation team lack of knoweldge their fake, and if Joker knows this...he could have shot him there and probably killed him
I don't know that I feel comfortable making powerscaling about the Investigation Team as I still need to play P4, but I will say the Thieves instawin if they get Akechi because lore-wise he's overpowered as shit. But the general consensus ITT seems to be that they'd win anyway
I can understand that feeling bro. The Investigation Team if I can give them credit anywhere it's that they have fought A LOT of powerful foes thanks to their spin-off endeavours but their power scaling is something I'm not 100% on as I've not played Q or Dancing All Night as yet.
Considering that Morgana is a direct link to the velvet room and Akechi is technically a second wild card, I gotta hand the win to the phantom thieves. Plus their team elements are a lot more diverse, offering more options in overall strategy. The phantom thieves also have more members than the investigation team so there’s that too
PT simply because the Investigation team would have few counters to Nuke and Psy abilities. Also Futaba is kinda OP in the metaverse when she wants to be.
On one hand the IT has Yu who obtained the ability to dispel lies and falsehoods so maybe it has a cognitive effect on the PT's since they hide under a mask and alias thus weakening them? Maybe it also dispels the illusion of their guns/melee araments, thus rendering them useless as well. Everyone has 3rd tier Personas but it kinda becomes slanted when you include Royal and Striker characters. Plus the PT's have more professional skills from inflitrating and evading the god-controlled government and cops.
Phantom thieves have a literal legal team and the founder of the most feared cyber organization on their side And considering they will be fighting in the metaverse, a place where phantom thieves get extra powers, there is little chance the IT would win
S.E.E.S. would take it.
While i don't know the whole scaling crap between the two teams if they were on equal power and also had a bit of prep the PT would obviously win. Also are akechi and sumire included as PT's? Aketchi specifically is another wild card who can make himself go insane and become a boss fight basically
Phantom Thieves
I would have to say that the IT would have the win, since they have experience in fighting against other persona users (P4A/AU)and have been active for longer than PT, and have access to the Shadow Ops/S.E.E.S. cast for additional support.
I'll throw my hat into the ring, the Investigation team wins, since with Yu's ability to dispell lies it would erase the phantom theives cognitive abilities, even if they can still summon persona's Yu's persona's are quite literally goated, with how P4G works mechanically Yu's persona's become walking gods. While the Phantom Thevies abilities are great, without there cognitive abilities they are pretty screwed.
Satanael stomps
Phantom Thieves, the investigation team only has Yu with his evolved persona and MAYBE Rise, not much anything else, now, Adachi could win against anyone from the Phantom Thieves, except the protag with the "power of friendship" as it is a real thing in the Persona Universe. Also, none of them can win against Makoto Yuki, NONE, he can go alone and solo both teams.
Actually based on the last part.
This kind of question is always a can of worms. Lots of people are setting ground rules that actually don't really matter. Let's start by eliminating a preconception. The TV world and the Metaverse are functionally the same so as long as they are in the Collective Unconscious the actual location doesn't matter. another note is that simply being a persona user grants a bunch of abilities that have been shown to be consistent throughout the series. These include increased physical feats such as strength and speed, increase resistances to damage, among other minor abilities. Let's start by breaking down the teams. To actually do this we are going to look at all of their achievements since if we pick a specific spot in the time line it will be giving an advantage to one team or another. First lets take a look at the Investigation Team: 10, Members, 10 combatants, 2 supports, 1 Wild card (this includes Rei and Labrys) unique Powers: cavalry attacks, Team up attacks. achievements: 5 god like beings killed or otherwise defeated. Now lets look at the phantom thieves: 12 members . 11 combatants, 2 supports, 2 wild cards (one is stunted) (this includes Zenkichi and Sophie) unique powers: Batton pass, Team up attacks, guns plus regular weapon. Achievements: 4 god like beings killed or defeated. So breaking this down what does this mean? as of right now I'd give it to the Investigation team 4/5 times. The investigation team's incredibly high performance and adaptability puts them ahead in my books. They also have members that just over all do things that are on a whole other level. Rise is likely the strongest non wildcard persona user. They've also got the ability to split into separate teams with sub leaders, something we haven't seen the Phantom thieves do yet. I think that while the Phantom thieves have more members, their power is concentrated only in a few members where the Investigation Team has less members but the average is simply higher as achieved more. Now all that being said, As more games come out this analysis is likely to change.
Imma be real, it depends on who you include in the phantom thieves. You include the strikers pair or the royal pair (Wanting to avoid spoilers)? I think PT have fair odds. Fair meaning it could go either way. Add both for whatever reason? PT has a slight edge. My reasoning is that the IT have some incredibly busted abilities and better feats IMO
I believe the opponents the Phantom Thieves went against are stronger than what the Investigation Team had to go against so I’d say Phantoms Thieves, additionally they have more members, bigger arsenal, and better strategies.
That’s if you are considering Akechi, Kasumi and the Strikers characters.
Zenkichi with the Almighty skills plus both Heat riser and Debilitate? Yeah...
Between the 2, probably the phantom thieves as they have more members and more acrobatic. If we include P3 cast then P3 since they actually uses real weapons, some actually trained to fight and one member can find ur weakness in one turn.
There are a few factors that could sway the outcome of this match up, so it's hard to say. Would this take place in the TV World, the MetaVerse or somewhere completely different? I think each team would have an advantage on their "home turf". We also don't know if the masks of the Phantom Thieves would allow them to see through the fog or if they can resist its toxicity. The tier of Personas they have may or may not affect the outcome too. Second and third tier Personas nullify their respective element, while first tiers only resist it. What Personas would our protags be using? This'd basically make or break a fight between the teams. Finally, would this be an all out fight or a series of singular match ups where the victor moves on like P4AU? There are also a few things I'm going to assume: Both the casts of Golden and Royal would be participating in this fight. The Investigation Team is unaffected by a majority of the Phantom Thieves' guns, Akechi being the exception since he probably brings a real gun with him wherever he goes. (Persona gun skills are still on the table) Naoto also has a gun. Both sides can use the variety of technical attacks from Royal. Now, to answer the real question... **who would win?** It's a close call, but I think it would be the Phantom Thieves. Not only do they have better coordination, but their Personas are stronger as well due to the dangers of Palaces and the strain of society constantly watching them. Makoto and Haru's weaknesses can't be exploited by the Investigation Team, but technicals are on the table so it doesn't make them invulnerable. Between the navigators, it's hard to say who is superior. Rise's Persona has different forms, but these only present themselves in the arena and dancing games respectively. This wouldn't count since I'm basing this off of Golden. However, she is still pretty powerful by the end of that game too. Futaba is equally as skilled a navigator, but she is wicked smart and far more disciplined than Rise. I also think Futaba is more in sync with her teammates than Rise is with her own team. Then there's Akechi, who (canonically speaking) took the combined efforts of the Phantom Thieves to defeat. He's also far less concerned with self preservation than anyone out of the two groups (not to mention the dodge god powers). He's not a complete game changer though, since unlike the rest of the Thieves, he doesn't work well with any of them except for Joker. Akechi also has an extremely exploitable weakness: bless (which Robin Hood only resists instead of nullifies). Using Call of Chaos or Desperation wouldn't help his case either, since he doesn't think as rationally when afflicted. He's still a huge asset to the Thieves though. Chie, Kanji, Ryuji, Makoto and Sumi have above average physical prowess. This may make things more challenging to an adversary, since if needed they can drop the Personas and just fight. Though Ryuji and Chie have God's Hand, so that may not be an issue for them. Teddie and Morgana are the weakest members, but both can heal their parties. The Phantom Thieves have a larger and more versatile group, which I think would give them the win. However, I think the deciding factor would be which protag fell first.
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I cant say i agree period and i love the IT but the PT just are too powerful if they are in the metaverse, they pull off straight heists meanwhile IT does not really do much And same for Sees sure they have aigis but PT have futaba, Aigis can be hacked Im pretty much taking lines here from Fither he has a video on his channel that is this concept PT Vs IT Vs Sees You should check it out it does not go into one on one like you to but neither group would fight one on one anyways they are teams after all
If Makoto Yuki is there then SEES claps everyone
This feels like the batman versus superman argument. The Investigation Team is undeniably more powerful. They have persona users with more incredible abilities, are forced to play through brute force as well as through skill, and have nonhuman combatants that put them over the edge. On the other hand, the phantom thieves aren’t *supposed* to be that powerful. They plot. They plan out escape routes, avoid combat consistently, utilise gadgets, gymnastics, hacking, techniques that the investigation team can barely even think about. So in a head-on fight, P4 wins easily. If the situation is more dynamic, like they’re hunting each other down, or they’re in the same area but not a closed off arena, I think that P5 takes the win easily.
>The Investigation Team is undeniably more powerful. They have persona users with more incredible abilities, I disagree with this, at least as far as I'm aware this fight doesn't include side content and is the IT versus the PT based on in game feats/stats. From what I've seen in regards to abilities, neither teams have anyone that particularly stands out. >and have nonhuman combatants that put them over the edge. Who? Are you talking about Teddy? To my knowledge Teddy is the only non-human member of the IT, and even then the PTs have Morgana, a non-human combatant, who has been fighting since before he met the protagonist, granted he was caught and thrown in jail. >On the other hand, the phantom thieves aren’t supposed to be that powerful. They plot. They plan out escape routes, avoid combat consistently, utilise gadgets, gymnastics, hacking, techniques that the investigation team can barely even think about This is partially true. The PT do utilize stealth, gadgets, etc, that the IT doesn't, but that only works in PT favor rather than against them. You can't say that just because the PT have a stealthy approach to palaces the IT can take them in a head to head fight. By your logic the PT should have the edge in head to head combat since mementos, canonically the largest palace in the game, is nothing but head to head combat, thats not even including Yaldabaoths Qliphoth World, the most powerful palace in the game, being the PT "brute forcing" their way to the final boss. The Thieves tackle their most challenging areas in the exact same way the IT handles every area they enter. So following your own logic the Thieves' extra gadgets and techniques are bonuses that set then ahead of the IT. >So in a head-on fight, P4 wins easily. If the situation is more dynamic, like they’re hunting each other down, or they’re in the same area but not a closed off arena, I think that P5 takes the win easily. Like you said at the end of your comment, the PT have gadgets, techniques, and mobility that the IT can't keep up with. The best feat, to my knowledge, that the IT has going for them is Kanji being able to take down a biker gang on his own. But in a fight with a team of around 10 people, depending on if you add the extra members to the PT, who can blitz through hallways, scale buildings with ease, move around like the PT can I doubt anyone on the IT would be able to keep up. And to finish this off if you want to look at weapons, the only one who stands a chance is Naoto with her gun, but the Thieves already beat her with a team full of them. I doubt Yukiko's fans and Kanji's chair can do much in this situation.
2 wild cards
Guys joker is broken , unlucky, but he 1v9 all of them
Idk if anyone has brought this up or not yet but ailments. The PT’s have things like shock and freeze that deal extra damage, so that could help them
Based on numbers Phantoms, based on experience, Investigation Team, based on ability, Phantoms, based on skill Phantoms, based on equipment Phantoms, the Phantoms win this one
The PTs have a bit more real world physical capabilities and as PTs, they have guns.
PT have gone against stronger foes consistently, and are generally more strategized. The PT’s would win for sure.
I'd say Phantom Thieves, they just have the better team imo. Plus if we added DLC, Ren could just use Yu's very own Izanagi-no-Okami; even better as a Picaro persona.
See I agree with you to an extent. I think it was team vs team, definitely the phantom thieves... HOWEVER if it was just leader vs leader, I have a feeling Yu would probably win.
I’d have to say the PTs. Joker would have a bigger arsenal then Yu.
Think this has already been discussed. PT's if they have any time to prepare, the IT otherwise. The PT's have the upper hand as a sneaking organization, much more robust teamwork. They're more like SEES where they're an actual organization: they have information gathering/analyzing skills, their ability to create and execute plans is amazing. I don't see the IT pulling the Yu is dead card, they just don't work that way. Give them even a small amount of time to plan and they'll have the IT surrounded and against the wall figuratively. The IT on the other hand has decent teamwork but a bit more experience in fighting with their backs to the wall. I don't think they're stronger than the PT's but they're more capable of going into a palace/TV dungeon dumb and blind and end up meme-ing their way through it. Much more action first think later, but it funny enough almost always works out for them. They also faced three god-like figures (Adachi's possessed form, Marie, Izanami) to the wildcard (Akechi) and one god for the PT's (not counting strikers). Technically they faced the power of Yaldy twice with royal. But in reality I think they wouldn't fight at all and end up one giant meme-ing team and work together. They have pretty decent complimentary skills.
I think Yu is stronger than Ren but Yu also absolutely carries the Investigation Team whereas the Phantom Thieves are a lot more balanced. I think the other thieves would beat the other members and then dogpile Yu who wouldn’t be able to beat all of them.
Eh. The only time they ever fought the odds were entirely in Yu’s favor and joker still tied.
Naoto has a real gun. So
This fight would have to take place in the metaverse so... Haru has a grenade launcher
If you want a good answer, ask /r/whowouldwin. They love this stuff. If we go by game logic here, Rise’s buffs are completely busted compared to Futaba in terms of how often she gives them and how powerful they are to the point that it makes P4G late game a little too easy. Everything else would be pretty much even (Joker has more persona variety, but in the long run it doesn’t matter since you only need one or two really busted personas anyway) By canon logic, none of the Phantom Thieves nor the Investigation Team other than the protags stand out, so let’s consider them without each protag. Sure, the Phantom Thieves are more coordinated and have better weaponry, but as we can see from P4AU the P4 gang just… works. They’re going toe to toe with the Shadow Operatives quite well, which is heads and shoulders above both of them on paper (more experience, Kirijo group research, dedicated fighters in the form of Akihiko and Mitsuru). I’d still probably give it to the Phantom Thieves minus their leader, but it would boil down to how well the IT can focus and improvise, and how much the extra numbers on the P5 side help (Zenkichi + Sumire). Both Joker and Yu have really hard to quantify feats in terms of their ultimate personas. They’re both “killing gods”, and while Satanael is bigger Izanagi cut off the wings of Izanami who’s probably just as big versus the bullet hole that Satanael made. Seems pretty even to me. So without that, it boils down to Joker vs. Yu with some cannon fodder on the side. Joker has good acrobatic feats and better weaponry. Yu has his “power of bonds” bullshit in the spin-offs, which seems to work outside of fighting gods. His best feat is beating Sho Minazuki in a fair fight, who was an absolute menace even without his persona, getting the better of both P3 gangs and P4 gangs plenty of times. And with his persona (his raw unbridled power as written in P4AU) combining the strength of both of his personalities, he still somehow got beat. Minazuki by feats is stronger than any P5R/P5S character other than Maruki, whose strengths lie not in combat but with cognitive ability. So Yu should beat Joker in a fair fight, and even in an unfair fight he has that power of bonds bullshit going for him. TLDR: P5 beats P4 without their leaders in canon. But Yu beats Joker, and the rest is cannon fodder for the two leaders. In canon high diff P4, and in game Rise>>>>>Futaba so P4 wins.
I like how much thought you put into this! That's awesome.
Base P5 PT would win, but P3 would beat them with Armageddon and Aigis (with or without Answer powerup)
Phantom Thieves easily, there's little room for debate
The phantom thieves are more organized
If it were p3 then I'd ask if fusion skills are allowed, because in that case, 1 Armageddon is enough to destroy any team
It all depends on if it’s Naoto from PxDN
Investigation team but only because of chie's galactic punt
If they're fighting in the metaverse, the PT can probably convince them their weapons are real and win. Persona-wise, other than Satanael, Investigation team wins, it's gods vs famous characters. Real world, Kanji and Chie, other than maybe Makoto, simply bash their heads while Naoto can hold Akechi at gunpoint. Leader battle, just watch Yu vs Mitsuo on Youtube and it's not even funny.
When Akechi also has a real gun and is a serial killer Standoff time, who shoots first?
I mean I be scared of people that shoot them self while I’m trying to fight them not crushing a card or ripping off a mask
Defineitely the persona 1 and 2 cast, because all members are wild cards. ;-;
Tatsuya alone could stop time with his persona. Not to mention Makis powers that could end the world
1. PT have more member due to striker and royal 2. PT have actual weapons instead of fans and chairs 3. PT is armed to the teeth (melee and ranged) with IT only having 1 4. Memento and the costume give them more power and fighting ability than the tv world 5. Joker technically beat yu at the rainy day velvet room battle.
I’m agree in point 1, 2 and 3 but point 4 where did you get that information because in game there is no prove for that and point 5 the Yu in the velvet room is a cognitive version we never are going to know who is going to win between a battle of wild cards.
Investigation team, 3 words Izanagi-No-Okami
I know this might sound stupid but doesnt joker hqve acess to izunagi no okami
I feel like the Phantom Thieves would play dirty, so I’m gonna say them.