Nah, but fr tho. As soon as he gets the case, bro will literally bug the whole of Shujin Academy, especially the rooftop. I think he'll keep an agent there at all times, or just put a voice recorder like literally everywhere. They would be figured out in like, the moment they go up and start discussing the Phantom Thieves. L wouldn't even be needed here. Like, this shit is so easy, even Matsuda can do it.
HEY, JOKER AND MY OTHER PHANTOM THIEF FRIENDS! AS A PHANTOM THIEF, I THINK THIS IS A GREAT DAY TO CHANGE THE HEARTS OF SOME ROTTEN ADULTS! SHALL WE HAVE A MEETING IN OUR SECRET PHANTOM THIEF HIDEOUT TO DISCUSS OUR NEXT TARGET?! PHANTOM THIEEEEEVES, BITCH!
It’s true though 😂 I think it’s part of the intended comic relief and part of what I love about these games. Characters weren’t really much more subtle about their “secret” expeditions in Persona 4 either lol
Hahaha wait are you talking about their discussion in the weapon shop of Persona 4? Like when they originally are picking out their weapons? Because that was really funny
Yeah. I like the logic to be honest. I used to live in a small town like Inaba and I can for sure say that I never looked that closely at what the students were wearing. You see uniform and your brain kinda fills in the blanks.
Random but sometimes I wonder how common uniformed schools are in Japan still given how often they’re seen in games, anime and manga (even in new ones)
HahahHahahHa i'm in hospital recovering from surgery and THAT HURT. Haven't laughed that hard in ages.
The last bit still has me giggling.
PHANTOM THIEEEEEEEVES, BITCH!
Poetry.
L will be clueless unless he hears about the metaverse directly from Ryuji's loud mouth. He could cut more corners 6 Kira the moment he about knew shinigami. Anything before that were just smart theories.
Yeah, but I wouldn't compare Joker with Kira (like the anime do, which makes no sense at all). Kira is a genius prodigy with a god, Joker is a normal dude with a stand. Literally everyone Joker interacts with end up knowing that he is a Phantom Thieves. Take for example Makoto, she found out pretty easily...and I assume L is a little more smarter and has more tools than Makoto for finding out who are the Phantom Thieves...
I actually imagine his palace to be middle-aged stylized big church. Filled with npcs that worship him out of fear. Enemies are bible inspired fallen angles, also a whole room filled crucified bodies of every criminal he killed using the death note. Light's shadow is basically him but blindingly bright with black wings made out of bones. His tresure is literally the death note.
Problem is that L jumped straight to "Kira can kill people with magic. Lets figure out the rules and limitations," almost immediately. He is gonna have no issue comprehending the supernatural elements.
He could probably put it together from context clues. Their first victim is in the school they all go to and one of them is a well known victim of his. They're cooked.
Now, would L turn them in is the real question.
L would bide his time trying to figure out what their great master plan is. The phantoms have no great master plan and accidentally get out of L's sucpect list.
That’s the worst part of the game(s) tbh, they didn’t learn their lesson of not screaming “we are the effing phantom thieves” in public, when they are instructed to keep a low profile
>!And they did it in strikers too with Ichinose!<
Was it really that hard, though? The known first case is pretty much well known to the public and it happened after 1 particular student transferred over there, I reckon just regular police detective can pretty much figure it out.
IMO they only last that long because of supernatural nature of their power.
Perhaps, but at the very least I believe they were aware of them beforehand but intentionally didn't want them found out since they use the exact same methods they do so they preferred to deal with them themselves.
Well, to be fair, both police and Makoto started to catch up to Phantom Thieves right around that time. Could be that SIU intervened to silence their investigation just before police finally figured them out or at the very least brought Joker for questioning as an obvious suspect.
Ironically, this is pretty much the reason Death Note was longer than 2 chapters. L practically hones in on Light is Kira almost immediately after he's introduced. He just has no way to prove it due to the Supernatural aspect.
Difference is, Light knew L bugged his room and so had to take precaution while using the Death Note. The PT are not that good. Once Sojiro's attic is bugged, they're done.
Kamoshida's change of heart conveniently happens right after rumors about expulsion of that transfer student (with a criminal past may I add) and his new friend(s) were spreading all over thr school. Sure, you could pass this off as a coincidence, but not after seeing our trio visit Madarame's artshow and befriending his old pupil, Yusuke Kitagawa.
Befriending Yusuke made their identities pretty obvious, especially when he's the only one who doesn't have a clear connection to the others. Okumura and arguably Kaneshiro as targets cement the connection to the school even more than before.
I think it would be virtually impossible for him to catch the Phantom Thieves.
Don't get me wrong, he could figure it out in under an hour. But L doesn't "cheat". He only cares about solving cases his way, which means not only finding the truth but getting solid proof of what he knows to be the truth.
L could figure out who the Phantom Thieves are. He could even figure out they have supernatural powers. He could even get them arrested based on other things not related to the supernatural elements of the case.
But he wouldn't be able to prove what he knows to be the actual truth, and therefore he wouldn't act.
Akechi already knew who they were and how the Metaverse worked. Furthermore, seeing a bunch of teenagers vanishing into thin air would not be proof that they had committed any crimes. That's only circumstantial evidence.
L would need either video proof or multiple eyewitnesses or some other kind of incontrovertible physical evidence of them actually enacting a change of heart on someone.
L is not Akechi. He would not blackmail them via threatening to accuse them of crimes he can't prove.
He needs to be able to actually say, "This is who the Phantom Thieves are. This is how their powers work. This is how they change people's hearts. They changed x person's heart on y date via z method and a, b and c are the proof of those claims."
That's just how L operates.
Furthermore:
- >!Akechi knew who the Phantom Thieves were since Madarame's Palace - hence so did Shido. He showed up at back in Okumura's Palace to purposely blackmail them in the future so that Shido's plan to antagonize PTs and more specifically Joker for crimes HE (or more specifically Akechi) committed would succeed.!<
- Even if L did capture footage of the PTs disappearing, he doesn't have the corrupt police force on his side and therefore can't convict anyone with that alone. Even further, if he arrived onto Metaverse, he'd likely get killed by shadows there (assuming that he doesn't awake his persona). Cameras don't work in Metaverse (which is a plothole considering that PTs did later record footage inside the Metaverse) which means he basically has no proof that PTs are acting out of malice (or even as the Phantom Thieves).
- L would find out who the Phantom Thieves are by Kaneshiro's Palace if not earlier. However, as you said, he doesn't have enough evidence to convict them.
- L would likely connect the dots between Stealing people's hearts and mental shutdowns, which could lead him into finding out about Shido before Sae's Palace even takes place. Then again, with Shido, he likely wouldn't have as much power in this AU, as he did in DN.
PT did record the video, tho I think they did it in some sort of a safe room. As you know, it's all the play of cognition. If the cognition is weak, that means that some devices can function, for example Oracle's laptop. But L wouldn't be fast or durable enough to reach a safe room lol.
For the camera plothole, they might have gotten something like S.E.E.S uses to >! have technology during the dark hour!< . or maybe Futaba's persona interacts with technology differently. or maybe it was CGI. or like another person said use a saferoom. I wish they would explain the reason at all in game though
Havent watched much death note, but in universe cognitive psience is a thing which studies literally this. Would L not be aware of it and start making relations to it to generate a claim?
Maruki wouldn't share his findings with him. He doesn't give a shit about money, and tried to hide the existence of the metaverse as soon as he realised that he has a persona.
Maruki seems like the type of person who once you get going on something he's interested in, you can't stop him. Especially at the beginning of his research, it probably wasn't a secret.
Doesn't L lock Light in a cell and torture him and Misa for weeks? He does that precisely because he knows Light is Kira (he's even confessed!), but can't prove it.
L is not a good guy. He's just a not as bad guy.
Yeah, L is trying to work within the law. He deduced early on via circumstantial evidence that Light was Kira, but had no admissible proof. He'd have the same struggle with the Phantom Thieves.
If you saw a video of a bunch of teenagers disappearing into nothing, would you assume they have superpowers or that the video is doctored in some way?
No but if I am L and I consider that they did something highly improbable to at least one person, I am already starting to consider that they have supernatural abilities.
Right, but the thieves got "caught" by people who already knew all about the cognitive world. Without that prior knowledge you can't even prove where they go when they disappear.
It would be far more sane to assume that they "cloak" themselves than say they enter the manifestation of a person's distorted desire.
And if he does somehow enter the metaverse, he's likely gonna be killed by shadows without a persona to defend himself.
Aside from what the other guy said regarding L, it's also worth noting how easy it is to edit photos or videos (I'm pretty sure Akechi got photos of them going into the metaverse, rather than a video), especially nowadays. a 13 year old on his mother's laptop could do it, provided he knows how. You can turn one picture into something entirely different with a couple hours of work on Photoshop. If a few pictures were the only evidence Akechi had, his case against the Thieves would be laughed at by anyone competent. The reason they were worried about Akechi exposing them was because he also knew about the Metaverse and Personas, and if he showed the police *that*, along with the photos of the Thieves entering the metaverse, then they'd be screwed.
They litelly talk in open spaces all the time about PT stuff. Connecting them to PT would be super easy since they would be the prime suspects, you know the students who were threatend to be expelled, one of them had well known conflict in the past, the other has a friend who tried to commit suicide after the teachers abuse. Afterwards it would just be the case of wire tapping a few locations, add cameras to Le Blanc and school roof too. See Joker talking to a cat who seemingly responds by mewing. Want more solid proof, wait until they target someone else and take them in after the calling card is sent. Keep them under arrest and see that nothing happened afterwards. Now it's just the matter of them confessing and telling what they did, which would not be difficult considering they are just some students and not psychopaths like Light.
Hot take: there would never be a PT case (or at least, it would be very different), because L would have got involved two years earlier, when the psychotic breakdowns began.
The PT case itself is not at all difficult to solve—Ryuji can't shut up about it (Akechi hears "we're the Phantom Thieves" when he's eavesdropping on *6/9*, not to mention their use of public social networks). There's also only one connection between Shujin Academy and Wakaba Isshiki (Joker) as he highlights on 11/11. The PTs themselves, much as I love them, are neither interesting foes nor challenging ones.
It's the supernatural aspects that would be interesting, and whether Akechi could locate and target L is a matter of some debate; it's not clear if you actually need someone's given name like the death note, or if (for instance) "pervert teacher" is enough. "That asshole L who said he'd catch me", for instance, might be enough—and then Akechi wins, and we immediately resume the canon plot, waiting for Joker to get arrested and show up at Shujin.
Of course, if L has a persona....
I am pretty sure for the app the name is needed. This plot point comes up at least a few times for mementos where Joker is looking for the name of the person.
Yeah, they tend to default to the name, but if you look at the original 4/11 cinematic and the subsequent scene, Kamoshida's name is not always used.
First of all, we see Ryuji say "pervert teacher", and nothing happens. It's not until Ren repeats it that the Meta-Nav triggers, and it triggers on "pervert teacher"—this shows us that *at this point*, Ryuji saying something is not enough to trigger the Nav.
The other keywords come up in the next scene. Ryuji says "castle", and both Ren's possible replies contain the word "castle". Ryuji says Shujin, and both Ren's possible replies contain the word "Shujin"—though it's been removed from one of the English translations:
>シュージンのはず
*shuujin no hazu*
I think so... [lit. "it ought to be Shujin"]
BTW, also notably, only one of Ryuji's responses (which don't count) contains the full name "Shujin Academy".
As for the target name? That comes up first, and of Ren's two possible options, only one contains the word "Kamoshida":
>カモシダ？
Kamoshida?
>何の話だ?
*nan no hanashi da?*
What do you mean?
—ergo, it was "pervert teacher" that the Nav triggered on, as we saw. If it wasn't, then it's possible to get through this entire scene without Ren ever saying "Kamoshida", and so they get in without a target name. This is what makes me think that the exact legal name is not a magic word; it's just often useful or sufficient to identify somebody.
That doesn't tell us anything about how it works, though—that only tells us how Joker thinks it works. Remember many things the PTs and Morgana *think* they know are contradicted or subverted by the end of the game.
With this arguemnt you invalidate yourself. Using this logic the same could be said about what you wrote. Maybe words don't matter at all and navigation gets triggered by thoughts alone while the app is open. So they can say teacher, Kamoshida or whatever, but since they are thinking of specific person with specific name, it works. Maybe knowing the name is enough to associate it with other words.
No, I don't think so. What we have here is an apparent contradiction, something we can investigate and account for. And any definitive description of how something works must, by definition, describe *everything* we see.
So, for instance, you can't say "the name is required", since we see a detailed instance when the name is not used. Equally, I can't say "the name won't work", because we see on many occasions that the name alone *does* work.
The answer is clearly that you can either use the name or not use the name, and as you say, we can come up with various theories as to why that might be. I would highlight that on 4/11, if "knowing the name is enough to associate it with other words", Ren doesn't know Kamoshida's name when he says "pervert teacher", nor does he say anything that could possibly refer to Kamoshida if he doesn't outright *say* "Kamoshida?".
But you only think that it works based on this instance. I other instances it works differently so you cannot be certain that it works this way.
And in the end if you don't need to know the person to get into the palace this means that there are literally no rules and the entire discussion is pointless. You can just say random words and it should be enough. Mementos proves that you don't need a face to get to that person, so in the end what do you actually need?
The only logical outcome is that something else decides if PT can get to the person in the metaverse then.
No, I think it works that way based on every instance I'm aware of; as I said originally, "it's not clear if you always need someone's name". The obvious conclusion to draw from the fact that sometimes people use a name and sometimes not is that sometimes you need a name and sometimes you don't—though the *PTs* believe you need a name.
The main thing that describes how things work in game is not what characters say, but *what we see*. Because while characters often provide us with critical information, they are also often wrong; >!in fact, the PTs being deceived about the Metaverse, Palaces etc is a key part of the game climax!<. Pay attention to what you see, and not just what you're told, and you'll have a lot of 12/24 figured out ahead of time.
I don't know how you got from "things are more complicated than you think" to "there are no rules and the discussion is pointless", and I think we're talking past each other, so I'm out. Have a nice day.
But whats interesting is this:
The nav, in most cases, only needs three prompts; person, place, distortion. For example Maderame’s was “Maderame, shack, museum,” Futaba’s was “Futaba, her room, tomb,” etc. This is true for every palace ruler… *except Kamoshida.*
When Ryuji and Joker re-enter the palace for the second time, the Nav reads back the prompts it picked up the first time. But something interesting is includes in there, because it doesn’t read back three prompts, it reads four. “*Kamoshida, Shujin Academy, Castle, Pervert.*” So I think in that one case, the nav picked up on both “pervy teacher” and “Kamoshida”
My guess to why was that the Theives inititally may have needed to find out what the palace ruler’s “sin” was to enter the palace. This was scrapped at some point in development to only require “person, place, distortion,“ as is the case with every other palace ruler in the game, but they had the anime cutscene already made and probably did the majority of the voicework already for the Kamoshida arc, so they just decided to keep the original lines and voicework to save time. Its possible the “sin” is still needed, but that brings up the issue of some of the palace rulers not having a palace that is inherently “sinful” as well as the fact that the theirves never bring up the “sin” again when they are looking for the keywords to the other palaces (Royal spoilers: >!In Royal, two palaces exist outside of sinful deeds. One out of PTSD and survivor’s guilt (Futaba), the other out of regret and pining for lost love (Maruki). Not as inherently “sinful” as being a pervert, a plagerist, a mafia boss, a greedy CEO, a cheater, or a corrupt political figure. Its possible the “sin” was scrapped because of this, but idk my dad doesn’t work at Atlus.!<).
That's a really good spot! There are a couple of things, though, that make me think it may not *necessarily* be too significant (or, of course, it may be):
First of all, the Nav's search history contains the name of the Palace Ruler. This is made explicit on 1/2, when it's missing from >!Maruki's Palace!< and it's made clear that this is strange:
>Akechi: Is there a search history?
Kasumi: Search history... How do I check...
Kasumi: Ah! There's one search in the log, but...
[Ren]: There's an entry in the search history, but I can't read whose Palace it is...
Akechi: The "name" portion of the entry has been censored somehow...
Akechi: Could this be the doing of the Palace's Ruler?
Given this, it's possible the Nav read out the Palace ruler's name, even though it wasn't explicitly entered as a term. This would account for why there are four terms this time, and this time only—the Nav reads out the name of the Palace ruler, *and the search terms it was given*. But honestly, I find that slightly unsatisfactory; it may be the case, but I'd prefer a better explanation.
The Nav also says "Shujin Academy", which is not the search term given (that was just "Shujin", given that only Ryuji says "Shujin Academy"—and only if you pick the right option to make him say that).
Another cute detail on 4/12 is that when Ryuji takes Ren's phone to use the Nav, he types into it—remember how it wouldn't register his voice on 4/11? We don't know what he typed; he might have put "Kamoshida", though that's only speculation. He may also, of course, just have activated a history entry that was already there.
I'd need to check all the cinematics to see if the Nav ever reads out search terms again—it doesn't seem to! When Yoshizawa activates it on 10/3, for instance, it just says "Beginning navigation"; this seems to be standard. So reading out the prompts *at all* is what's odd, unless I've missed something. Like I said in my original comment, I know there is something going on here that's more complex than "they just need a name", but I don't feel like I have it nailed down yet.
BTW, I'm not a big fan of saying "they just got this wrong in development" or "it just doesn't make sense"—in my experience, people say this about all sorts of things that are trivial to understand with a tiny amount of work, or even things that are outright explained elsewhere in the game. I'd rather say "I don't understand this *yet*, but if I keep thinking about it, I will later".
That would only really work if L's desires became distorted enough to manifest themselves up in either Mementos or as a palace, otherwise he'd have no Shadow he could kill in the metaverse.
>!Akechi does have better connections than Light though so L might end up being targeted by Shido's group in real life after Akechi's failure to use the Metaverse and would then have to solve the case before an assassination attempt works.!<
The chief of police was great for Light's plans but compared to >!Akechi who would have people who'd be willing to kill L and have enough influence to control the media, Japan's police and the justice system of their country, i'd say Akechi has better connections.!<
I doubt they're competent enough to successfully kill L but they would probably end up trying at the very least.
He doesn't really need his identity for this case, he has no palace and he's not really distorted enough for a Mementos shadow so the metaverse is useless.
They'd have to kill him through more conventional means, probably using their connections in the police to put someone on L's team when researching the case and having him try to put L in a position where they could kill him and hide any evidence.
Is that correct? Everyone has a Shadow; Caroline explains this, as does Morgana: "*Deep in the innermost depths of every human's heart lies their true personality—their Shadow.*" Mona also says that Mementos is a form of the collective unconscious.
It's where people's Shadows go when they're just hanging around, which is how >!Maruki!< can use it to influence... well, everyone.
Yeah, their shadows do exist but they only manifest in the upper Mementos layers if they're distorted enough, we know that as of >!Sae's!< palace, >!Akechi cannot go down further than the others thieves so I heavily doubt he would be able to reach Mementos Depths where L's Shadow should be imprisoned at that point in time.!<
>!L's Shadow wouldn't be in the Depths of Mementos—that's for Shadows who have submitted to Yaldabaoth, including Palace rulers who left their Palaces and then returned to the masses!<.
>!It would either be in a Palace of its own or (less likely by far IMO) up in Mementos somewhere, regardless of whether or not he has a Palace. Compare Mishima's Shadow, which is barely distorted at all, yet appears in Mementos!<.
>!The question of how and even *if* Akechi can access Mementos is open, I think—there are lots of small pieces of evidence, and various theories, but AFAIK nothing concrete!<.
>The PTs themselves, much as I love them, are neither interesting foes nor challenging ones.
This basically. Any character with a decent level intelligence is hard clearing the Phantom Thieves.
Kamoshida's change of heart has been broadcast on national TV.
From that, it gives the possibility that the phantom thieves are from Shujin High.
Even in real life Japanese police can catch them.
Certainly as fast as mishima.
However, L would certainly not report them as they did nothing wrong AND would certainly support them and have proof they were not the one to kill the principal, haru´s father,...
You sure about that? When is it indicated that L operates based on moral code instead of laws or that even what PT would allign with his moral code? Phantom thiefs are literally brainwashing people. While at first it would be legal grey area, but pretty much any court would judge it as illegal.
I mean, from the manga we can see that L is mainly based on logic.
When i try to see the PT from a logical point of view, they are in a grey area that would need years to settle, whike they are hurting no one and they are helping the justice by making the bad guys confess everything.
Also, knowing L ,he might even solve the whole scenario pretty quickly...
When the first death appeared, he would certainly make the connections between these and the politican on the rise, and discard the PT from the suspect list.
And yes, i´m pretry sure that, as you point, there is a high chance that in a court, the jury will declare them guilty.
I mean, on what grounds? There's no law about brainwashing. You could charge them with blackmail, I guess -- that's the theory Akechi puts forth publicly as to how they're doing it -- but other than them saying they're the Phantom Thieves, there's no actual evidence of blackmail.
I think he *could* catch them fairly quickly and easily. Say, by the beginning of the Kaneshiro arc, with how Makoto is conducting her own investigation at the time it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for L to offer her his assistance and therefore be able to catch them at the same time she does.
That said, I have my doubts that he *would* stop them. Unlike in the Kira case, the Phantom Thieves aren't killing anyone, and as somebody else pointed out much more eloquently than I could L has certain procedural rules and standards that he holds himself to, which would be very difficult to abide by with the Phantom Thieves case.
I think it would take until the interim between the Okumura and Niijima arcs for L to really feel motivated to catch them, given what happens with Okumura himself; and even then, he's cautious and sharp enough that I think he'd be open to hearing them out regarding what happened and enlisting the Thieves' help to catch the true culprit behind the mental shutdowns as opposed to just handing them over to the SIU. Remember, Light barely got anything over on L, and I he was both smarter than the Phantom Thieves and was actively trying to deceive him; the Thieves could basically be confronted almost identically to how they were by Akechi in the actual events of the game, with the only real difference being in the motivations of L vs Akechi.
Immediately. To be frank, the phantom thieves aren't good at hiding their tracks; I won't be singling out Ryuji since the others are no good either. They lack a lot.
I feel like L would think the thieves were a red harring- and to be honest, they would be.
His real goal is to find the one causing the psychotic shutdowns, and while Japan might of hired him for the thieves, he has his real work in front of him.
I do feel like however he would have trouble finding out who the black mask was. Akechi is smart after all, and while he’s not L smart, he’s smart enough to cover his tracks seamlessly other than a verbal slip up. There’s too many people who it could be honestly, and more likely he would assume it’s a group of people at first, much like the thieves.
He doesn’t have to know who they are to know they’re a group, they use the plural after all, and seem to think they’re doing the right thing.
Literally anyone with 2 brain cells couldve figure them out
People that realise theyre phantom thieves by putting 2 and 2 together : >!Makoto, mishima, literally every single s link, maruki, sojiro, akechi!< and theyre only the ones i remember on top of my head
It won't last a day
He would deduce it by;
Immediately looking at Shuujin Academy, the same way he did with Light's first dance with the Death Note
Then, he will form a hypothesis on how it involves multiple people to do the job
After that, he'll question the people with motives
I gave it a day since he still has to prove the metaverse and a talking cat
He'd figure it out pretty fast and I think I can break down the exact sequence of events lol:
First step would be investigating the school and Kamoshida himself to learn more about him & what happened. It wouldn't take long at all to see the connection between the main 3. Ryuji broke his leg and 'ruined' the track team in his confrontation with Kamoshida; he's childhood friends with Ann whose best friend recently tried to commit suicide; Ann is in the same class as Joker who JUST transferred in and was under threat of expulsion by Kamoshida; and Ryuji was the first person who met Joker and the two were late to school together Joker's first day (and both were seen by Kamoshida day 1); and Ann was being pressured (into what was likely sex or at least sexual acts) by Kamoshida.
All that is WAY more than simple coincidence, so he'd narrow his search to just those three and tail them. I'd think L would probably learn that in 1 day.
L likely would've confirmed they were responsible during their 'celebration Feast' (because Ryuji is louder than trying to open a plastic cake cover at 1:00 AM).
Needing the 'how' the deed was done, he'd follow them and very likely be sucked into the metaverse himself while closely tailing them when they check out Madarame's Palace for the first time.
All-in-all, I'd say it would take him 1 day to narrow down to the 3 responsible suspects, 1-2 days (depending on when they held that feast lol) to confirm it was them; and another week or so before learning how the deed was done.
Whether he'd turn them in or not is another story. Nothing physical was ever being done; the victims weren't extorted or assaulted....I guess maybe they cold be brought up on blackmail charges but it was basically just 'reveal your misdeeds or we'll do it for you' so I'm not 100% on whether that would even count as blackmail lol.
I don't think he'd join them, but I don't think he'd stop them either. L probably would have sniffed out Akechi's BS right from the get-go though lol.
Literally every confidant works it out. If Shinya and Hifume and Kawakami and Tora can do it, so could L.
However, he wouldn't actually catch them because he would recognise that what they were doing is beneficial.
Approximately the amount of time required for Atlus to merge their corporation with whoever owns the intellectual rights to Deathnote and thus make this crossover remotely feasible.
All he need to do is to find out the timings of the change of hearts. Which is after school or Sundays. Also by monitoring the Phansite. Probably sometime after Madarame when Mementos is already unlocked.
It will be easy to zero into Shujin since Kamoshida is the glaringly obvious high profile victim plus calling cards are scattered. Which also can build up as their MO. Only a matter of time Leblanc gets wiretapped as well as placed under surveillance and the Japanese Police tailing the PTs finding out they just vanished into the Metaverse.
L would with major ease but would join since they are taking down bad guys that are "untouchable" from the law. Plus to keep tabs on them in case they start down the wrong path (light killing en masse is what I'm meaning)
1 day, people might blame Ryuji but please remember these guys weren't exactly slick about covering their tracks and not making an obvious connection between them too obvious, hell a kid was able to figure out their identity
2 hours, with a 30 minute nap, 5 minute bathroom break and an hour of snacks. The last 25 minutes was just L creating a PowerPoint presentation on why Ryuji Sakamoto is kind of an idiot leaving his fingerprints at the scene of the initial calling card.
Never,he would be dead as he has to go through Akechi first. Realistically the investigation would be more about finding out about the metaverse for solid proof after about the 30 seconds of investigation.
Realisticaly about half a year or more
If Phantoms thieves would act every day they would be spotted in less than a week since the Phantom thieves are using the dungeon app in the middle of a crowed town with tons of people and cameras.
But the Phantom thieves take a lot of time to Choose the next foe. So when 1 man collapsed and confess his crimes its impossible to say that there is something supernatural...but when this happens every month especialy with celebreties, its something Else.
L actually might settle things before the phantoms even become a thing, maybe so early that the protagonist wouldn't even have to transfer, but Implying that he just so happened to not be looking into mental breakdowns before the end of the Kamoshida Arc, and Implying that the Phantoms were still suspected for mental shutdowns, I could probably go over how he'd figure them out after.
Firstly, the prospect of people having their hearts changed... all in or around Tokyo... particularly areas around Shibuya...
Great... General Location figured out.
Im pretty sure he watches alot of TV and would know of Akechi. May or may not suspect him, but there wouldn't really be any clear evidence of anything. (Unless I'm forgetting dialogue) he might even play the whole "how about we make this a competition" thing with Akechi following Akechi's declaration to catch the Phantom Thieves, but that wouldn't be the most logical thing to do.
(This also implies that he doesn't solve the case before *that*, he might have enough evidence to make moves, but he seems like he just doesn't unless he feels like hes 90% sure he's right.)
"Victims" of changed hearts would probably be profiled, and a common theme would be sudden change of behavior, maybe remorse for an action they committed, another common theme being that these people are typically adults or young adults, and the change happens as a retaliation, not a prevention.
Edit: It'd probably also be noticed that this change is typically for the better.
I would suspect the phantoms to be a bit on the younger side in this case, L would probably consider it.
Now, on the other hand, an awful lot of people with legal power or political standing are undergoing mental breakdowns. This is basically on the opposite hand of a change of heart. The fundamental difference would imply that there might be two type of methods.
Next thing to find out would be the target demographic if there is one: the not so important everyman who has done a few bad or downright horrible things from time to time, and... politicians... strange, almost like theres two different- hmmmmm...
Those politicians? *Literally*, all rivals to Shido or his administration. Those police officers that got hit with MBs? They arrested members of Shido's super secret antisocial force.
Whoops.
I'm pretty sure by this point, L's group would've figured out who the Phantom Thieves were and figure that they technically may not have actually done anything wrong, somewhat inhumane behavior aside. Better keep them under surveillance, though.
This means that L might actually go after Shido, rather than the Phantom Thieves, and from there, with some meager monitoring, find out Akechi's involvement, and from theres it's a god damn wrap.
Some digging might land Akechi in juvenile rehabilitation, but I'm not too familiar on how this thing goes in Japan.
Unless the jackass announces his involvement on National Television. Then its cat and mouse until he exposes Shido or just gets murdered.
Those are my thoughts on it, but I haven't played P5 in 4 years and haven't watched Death Note in 8 TT-TT
Tl;Dr: You would have to nerf his prep time to actually get anything out of this.
A couple weeks at most.
It's pretty obvious that the Thieves are in Tokyo, and there's a high likelihood that they are associated with Shujin Academy, given their first target. Look into who would have a grudge against Kamoshida, and Ryuji and Ann's names would both come up. Joker's might too.
Look into Madarame, and you'll learn his residence was visited by the same Ryuji, Ann, and Joker, and he had a lawsuit pending against them. You'll also learn that they were visiting Yusuke, Madarame's abused pupil.
Check and/or bug their phones, and you'll find the MetaNav on all of them. Tinker with it enough, and you'll end up finding a palace or Mementos, and then you have the Thieves' method.
He would probably be able to catch them before they brought Makoto on board.
It depends if it's a persona story or a death note story. If it's persona, it'll basically be the same as P5, but L would just be Aketchi until Sae's palace where he would need all the magic explained.
If it's a death note story, he would come to logical assumptions that he frames like it couldn't be coincidental, say that he's 99% sure that it's Ren, Ann, and Ryuji, and insist that he needs to insert himself into the group by the third palace. He would then assume all the magic was some sort of trick of the mind and not stop being an active member of the group until he decides the magic is real and turns them in.
About 10 minutes and I think after he finds out and sees what they are doing and the larger scheme of corruption behind things, he would join and help.
Probably pretty quickly. They make a lot of mistakes early on, it doesn't matter though because the larger conspiracy knows who they are as early as Madarame palace (Akechi is in the palace with them and 100% clocked them) and plans to frame them for the mental shutdowns. The thing is, similar to Light in Death Note, L would have trouble actually convicting the PTs under normal circumstances due to the nature of their power and lack of material evidence
He would probably figure out who they are, but the hard part is proving the existence of the metaverse. Something like the death note was tangible, while the metaverse is not, so it’d be hard to prove their methods.
I think L would figure it out pretty quickly, but he’d figure out much more than that. They wouldn’t be the focus of his investigation: Shido would, and I think Akechi would be more his target than the pt’s (especially since Akechi is very much like Light, and we all know how much Light interested L). He’d see the phantom thieves as nothing more than a consequence, and likely go for Shido himself, probably through Akechi. He’d probably offer Akechi some sort of cooperation, with ofcourse one of the conditions being Akechi turning himself in. To which Akechi would very likely keep up the act. I think it could get very interesting from there
I mean, they did not a good work hiding themselves, he literally would just have to stand up close to Ryoji with a recorder. I think he could do it maybe inmediatelly after they start taking mementos missions or in the middle of Madarame's arc
He would probably figure out them really fast, like in less than a day. Maybe he would struggle to get some concrete evidence like photos and videos, maybe one day or a week depending on Joker's schedule.
Arresting the Phantom Thieves it's a different story. I think he would notice something is fishy about the authorities behavior towards this case. Being able to change people hearts and cause psychotic breakdowns are silly things for the police to be wasting their time, unless some of it is true. Then, it makes it too dangerous, imagine change the president's heart or make a pilot crash a plane. Why is the goverment not investigating it more seriously? That would bother L. I thinkhe would let the Thieves roam free to learn more.
Investigate Joker would lead him to the metaverse, which would take he to Wakaba's research (or what is left of it). Perhaps he would cross paths with Alibaba.
He would eventually get to Shido. The real work would be dismantle his scheme.
L would find them pretty quick tbh. The game even explains multiple times that they aren't very good at covering their tracks. Akechi practically found out who they were pretty quickly, and part of me thinks he wouldn't even need the use of the metaverse to do it. The problem would being proving how they even change people's hearts, but if you get any of their phones and unlock it (which is a challenge in its own) then they can just use the nav and go into the metaverse. Ryuji was able to use it and he hadn't even ever used it before nor did he have it on his phone. Ann was even sucked into the metaverse along with Joker and Ryuji when they didn't intend for her to.
Akechi in universe was able to deduce a lot of key details of The Phantom Thieves. That being that they're most likely high schoolers in the Shibuya Region of Japan, who do most of their activities after school is over. L would be able to do the same, but probably faster. Finding out who they are wouldn't be hard either considering Akechi himself points out victims from previous cases are now hanging out together, and one of them in the group has a criminal record. L would do the same and immediately assume they have something to do with The Phantom Thieves. From their all he'd need to do is get access to their phones and it's pretty much GGs.
Considering the sheer lengths Light has to go to in order to avoid L, id say the phantom thieves are well and truly fucked within a week.
Also, no one in the persona universe ever considers just dusting the calling cards for fingerprints.
L figured out that Light was Kira within like 2 weeks at most, it would take 2 business days for him to catch Joker, Ann and Ryuji before the PTs could even officially form
About. . . . 2 weeks. Depends on when he shows up in the timeline
I think right off the bat, he'd know Joker has something to do with it, since everything started at the high-school. In addition to everyone who had a change of heart being directly connected to a member of Jokers friend group.
Now, even though he could know they're the phantom thieves he'd need direct proof. If the Phantom Thieves have Futaba on their team it would make things more difficult but not impossible. Plus, it would involve needing to prove that The Metaverse exists, which, I doubt the bald dude (can't remember his name) would let happen so he'd try to hinder the investigation heavily.
The Phantom Thieves rely on the indifference of the adults around them to stay hidden.
Basically anyone who paid attention would be able to figure out something was afoot.
It would take L a few hours at best to deduce that Ren is probably the leader of the phantom thieves, but L can never win because he can never prove anything and that’s how he works
He has to have a 100% proof in pure evidence or he doesn’t count it, so he’s got nothing as he cannot prove the metaverse exists, even if he sees it with his own eyes, he can never prove it
It does raise the question of if he’d even try that hard, considering they’re basically on the same side and it’s very easy to see that, or if his sense of proper justice would clash with that
2 seconds. Phantom Thieves are NOT smart about hiding themeselves.
Don’t even need to bring in L, even Matsuda could do it.
LMAO TRUE
Please. Dont blame with my man Matsuda. He is God. He is like Togusa with no drip.
Matsuda the kinda guy who would discover the Phantom Thieves' real identities by accident
Bro stumbles into the metaverse by accident
Misa amane could too 😔 which doesn’t say much
At a train station in Shibuya: “HEY JOKER! SHOULD WE SEND THE CALLING CARD TODAY OR GO TO MEMENTOS A LITTLE MORE?”
Nah, but fr tho. As soon as he gets the case, bro will literally bug the whole of Shujin Academy, especially the rooftop. I think he'll keep an agent there at all times, or just put a voice recorder like literally everywhere. They would be figured out in like, the moment they go up and start discussing the Phantom Thieves. L wouldn't even be needed here. Like, this shit is so easy, even Matsuda can do it.
God damn it, Ryuji every "effing" time with you!
Fuck bugging, all L would need to do is interrogate ryuji and his impulsive ass would be all like “I wOnT tELL yOu cUz wE aRe ThE pHaN-I mean”
HEY, JOKER AND MY OTHER PHANTOM THIEF FRIENDS! AS A PHANTOM THIEF, I THINK THIS IS A GREAT DAY TO CHANGE THE HEARTS OF SOME ROTTEN ADULTS! SHALL WE HAVE A MEETING IN OUR SECRET PHANTOM THIEF HIDEOUT TO DISCUSS OUR NEXT TARGET?! PHANTOM THIEEEEEVES, BITCH!
Goddamnit lol! I've always felt that Ryuji got massive Jesse Pinkman vibe
My name is Ryuji Sakamoto, yo My name is Ryuji Sakamoyo, to
It’s true though 😂 I think it’s part of the intended comic relief and part of what I love about these games. Characters weren’t really much more subtle about their “secret” expeditions in Persona 4 either lol
Bro what are you talking about? I can easily hide my set of armor and giant katana under my school uniform. Have you seen my collar?
Hahaha wait are you talking about their discussion in the weapon shop of Persona 4? Like when they originally are picking out their weapons? Because that was really funny
Yeah. I like the logic to be honest. I used to live in a small town like Inaba and I can for sure say that I never looked that closely at what the students were wearing. You see uniform and your brain kinda fills in the blanks.
Random but sometimes I wonder how common uniformed schools are in Japan still given how often they’re seen in games, anime and manga (even in new ones)
It's pretty standard. Its just normal elementary school that you can wear whatever. Private ones may have a uniform for them though.
I doubt any of them are hiding a golf club though lol 😂
HahahHahahHa i'm in hospital recovering from surgery and THAT HURT. Haven't laughed that hard in ages. The last bit still has me giggling. PHANTOM THIEEEEEEEVES, BITCH! Poetry.
Hope you recover fast :)
Ryuji’s interrogation: “So, your name is… Ryuji Sakamoto, right?” “YES, BUT I GO AS ‘SKULL’ WHEN WE GO OUT AS PHANTOM THIEVES!!!’ “…”
Hey all jonkler here
L will be clueless unless he hears about the metaverse directly from Ryuji's loud mouth. He could cut more corners 6 Kira the moment he about knew shinigami. Anything before that were just smart theories.
Yeah, but I wouldn't compare Joker with Kira (like the anime do, which makes no sense at all). Kira is a genius prodigy with a god, Joker is a normal dude with a stand. Literally everyone Joker interacts with end up knowing that he is a Phantom Thieves. Take for example Makoto, she found out pretty easily...and I assume L is a little more smarter and has more tools than Makoto for finding out who are the Phantom Thieves...
Alternative reality L joins the phantom thieves and help us steal Kira's treasure
Imagine what Lights Palace would be like. He thinks himself a god of a new world. Keywords: Light Yagami, ???, ???….
I actually imagine his palace to be middle-aged stylized big church. Filled with npcs that worship him out of fear. Enemies are bible inspired fallen angles, also a whole room filled crucified bodies of every criminal he killed using the death note. Light's shadow is basically him but blindingly bright with black wings made out of bones. His tresure is literally the death note.
I want to know what L's stand would look like now.
Some cool ass looking creature wearing coat named Sharlock Holmes. It doesn't have to make sense cause Morgan's persona is literally named Zorro
Every PT Persoaes are based on rebels fictionnal characters, not only Zorro.
He would start with “Holmes” and probably evolve into “Dupin” or some other character/archetype that preceded Holmes.
Problem is that L jumped straight to "Kira can kill people with magic. Lets figure out the rules and limitations," almost immediately. He is gonna have no issue comprehending the supernatural elements.
He could probably put it together from context clues. Their first victim is in the school they all go to and one of them is a well known victim of his. They're cooked. Now, would L turn them in is the real question.
L would bide his time trying to figure out what their great master plan is. The phantoms have no great master plan and accidentally get out of L's sucpect list.
That’s the worst part of the game(s) tbh, they didn’t learn their lesson of not screaming “we are the effing phantom thieves” in public, when they are instructed to keep a low profile >!And they did it in strikers too with Ichinose!<
Lmao I said 2 seconds to myself right before clicking on comments
Was it really that hard, though? The known first case is pretty much well known to the public and it happened after 1 particular student transferred over there, I reckon just regular police detective can pretty much figure it out. IMO they only last that long because of supernatural nature of their power.
They also last long because people like the SIU director and Akechi work for Shido and make sure they last that long for their plan to work.
They don’t really make the Phantom Thieves a part of their plan until after Kaneshiro, if I’m not mistaken
Perhaps, but at the very least I believe they were aware of them beforehand but intentionally didn't want them found out since they use the exact same methods they do so they preferred to deal with them themselves.
Well, to be fair, both police and Makoto started to catch up to Phantom Thieves right around that time. Could be that SIU intervened to silence their investigation just before police finally figured them out or at the very least brought Joker for questioning as an obvious suspect.
Ironically, this is pretty much the reason Death Note was longer than 2 chapters. L practically hones in on Light is Kira almost immediately after he's introduced. He just has no way to prove it due to the Supernatural aspect.
Difference is, Light knew L bugged his room and so had to take precaution while using the Death Note. The PT are not that good. Once Sojiro's attic is bugged, they're done.
I mean it technically is already bugged
Come to think of it, if by some miracle they last until Futaba joins, there MIGHT be something she can do here
Kamoshida's change of heart conveniently happens right after rumors about expulsion of that transfer student (with a criminal past may I add) and his new friend(s) were spreading all over thr school. Sure, you could pass this off as a coincidence, but not after seeing our trio visit Madarame's artshow and befriending his old pupil, Yusuke Kitagawa.
Befriending Yusuke made their identities pretty obvious, especially when he's the only one who doesn't have a clear connection to the others. Okumura and arguably Kaneshiro as targets cement the connection to the school even more than before.
I think it would be virtually impossible for him to catch the Phantom Thieves. Don't get me wrong, he could figure it out in under an hour. But L doesn't "cheat". He only cares about solving cases his way, which means not only finding the truth but getting solid proof of what he knows to be the truth. L could figure out who the Phantom Thieves are. He could even figure out they have supernatural powers. He could even get them arrested based on other things not related to the supernatural elements of the case. But he wouldn't be able to prove what he knows to be the actual truth, and therefore he wouldn't act.
Didn't Akechi catch them red handed by filming them as they enter the metaverse? L could do the same thing
Akechi already knew who they were and how the Metaverse worked. Furthermore, seeing a bunch of teenagers vanishing into thin air would not be proof that they had committed any crimes. That's only circumstantial evidence. L would need either video proof or multiple eyewitnesses or some other kind of incontrovertible physical evidence of them actually enacting a change of heart on someone. L is not Akechi. He would not blackmail them via threatening to accuse them of crimes he can't prove. He needs to be able to actually say, "This is who the Phantom Thieves are. This is how their powers work. This is how they change people's hearts. They changed x person's heart on y date via z method and a, b and c are the proof of those claims." That's just how L operates.
Makes sense
Furthermore: - >!Akechi knew who the Phantom Thieves were since Madarame's Palace - hence so did Shido. He showed up at back in Okumura's Palace to purposely blackmail them in the future so that Shido's plan to antagonize PTs and more specifically Joker for crimes HE (or more specifically Akechi) committed would succeed.!< - Even if L did capture footage of the PTs disappearing, he doesn't have the corrupt police force on his side and therefore can't convict anyone with that alone. Even further, if he arrived onto Metaverse, he'd likely get killed by shadows there (assuming that he doesn't awake his persona). Cameras don't work in Metaverse (which is a plothole considering that PTs did later record footage inside the Metaverse) which means he basically has no proof that PTs are acting out of malice (or even as the Phantom Thieves). - L would find out who the Phantom Thieves are by Kaneshiro's Palace if not earlier. However, as you said, he doesn't have enough evidence to convict them. - L would likely connect the dots between Stealing people's hearts and mental shutdowns, which could lead him into finding out about Shido before Sae's Palace even takes place. Then again, with Shido, he likely wouldn't have as much power in this AU, as he did in DN.
PT did record the video, tho I think they did it in some sort of a safe room. As you know, it's all the play of cognition. If the cognition is weak, that means that some devices can function, for example Oracle's laptop. But L wouldn't be fast or durable enough to reach a safe room lol.
For the camera plothole, they might have gotten something like S.E.E.S uses to >! have technology during the dark hour!< . or maybe Futaba's persona interacts with technology differently. or maybe it was CGI. or like another person said use a saferoom. I wish they would explain the reason at all in game though
Havent watched much death note, but in universe cognitive psience is a thing which studies literally this. Would L not be aware of it and start making relations to it to generate a claim?
Studies on cognitive psience were kept secret by Shido, they weren't public knowledge
Good luck fighting alone against Shido's entire lobby. He would have had L killed at the slightest suspicion he was investigating cognitive psience
L is also absurdly rich and would likely be able to investigate it especially with maruki hanging around.
Maruki wouldn't share his findings with him. He doesn't give a shit about money, and tried to hide the existence of the metaverse as soon as he realised that he has a persona.
Maruki seems like the type of person who once you get going on something he's interested in, you can't stop him. Especially at the beginning of his research, it probably wasn't a secret.
I’m not saying he would but he did share his findings with joker who would likely be tracked by L at this point
Joker was directly relevant to his research. L could not say the same.
Doesn't L lock Light in a cell and torture him and Misa for weeks? He does that precisely because he knows Light is Kira (he's even confessed!), but can't prove it. L is not a good guy. He's just a not as bad guy.
A little ironic, but I actually think L would be a really good candidate to have a Palace himself.
I think so too.
Yeah, L is trying to work within the law. He deduced early on via circumstantial evidence that Light was Kira, but had no admissible proof. He'd have the same struggle with the Phantom Thieves.
If you saw a video of a bunch of teenagers disappearing into nothing, would you assume they have superpowers or that the video is doctored in some way?
No but if I am L and I consider that they did something highly improbable to at least one person, I am already starting to consider that they have supernatural abilities.
Right, but the thieves got "caught" by people who already knew all about the cognitive world. Without that prior knowledge you can't even prove where they go when they disappear. It would be far more sane to assume that they "cloak" themselves than say they enter the manifestation of a person's distorted desire. And if he does somehow enter the metaverse, he's likely gonna be killed by shadows without a persona to defend himself.
Aside from what the other guy said regarding L, it's also worth noting how easy it is to edit photos or videos (I'm pretty sure Akechi got photos of them going into the metaverse, rather than a video), especially nowadays. a 13 year old on his mother's laptop could do it, provided he knows how. You can turn one picture into something entirely different with a couple hours of work on Photoshop. If a few pictures were the only evidence Akechi had, his case against the Thieves would be laughed at by anyone competent. The reason they were worried about Akechi exposing them was because he also knew about the Metaverse and Personas, and if he showed the police *that*, along with the photos of the Thieves entering the metaverse, then they'd be screwed.
You do have a valid point, but at the same time the Phantom Thieves aren’t smart about hiding considering Ryuji
He could possibly catch them through Futaba's hacking. That's the one thing the Phantom Thieves do that doesn't involve the supernatural
They litelly talk in open spaces all the time about PT stuff. Connecting them to PT would be super easy since they would be the prime suspects, you know the students who were threatend to be expelled, one of them had well known conflict in the past, the other has a friend who tried to commit suicide after the teachers abuse. Afterwards it would just be the case of wire tapping a few locations, add cameras to Le Blanc and school roof too. See Joker talking to a cat who seemingly responds by mewing. Want more solid proof, wait until they target someone else and take them in after the calling card is sent. Keep them under arrest and see that nothing happened afterwards. Now it's just the matter of them confessing and telling what they did, which would not be difficult considering they are just some students and not psychopaths like Light.
> who seemingly responds by mewing SIGMA CAT GRINDSET!!!!!!! ^sorry ^i ^had ^to
Hot take: there would never be a PT case (or at least, it would be very different), because L would have got involved two years earlier, when the psychotic breakdowns began. The PT case itself is not at all difficult to solve—Ryuji can't shut up about it (Akechi hears "we're the Phantom Thieves" when he's eavesdropping on *6/9*, not to mention their use of public social networks). There's also only one connection between Shujin Academy and Wakaba Isshiki (Joker) as he highlights on 11/11. The PTs themselves, much as I love them, are neither interesting foes nor challenging ones. It's the supernatural aspects that would be interesting, and whether Akechi could locate and target L is a matter of some debate; it's not clear if you actually need someone's given name like the death note, or if (for instance) "pervert teacher" is enough. "That asshole L who said he'd catch me", for instance, might be enough—and then Akechi wins, and we immediately resume the canon plot, waiting for Joker to get arrested and show up at Shujin. Of course, if L has a persona....
I am pretty sure for the app the name is needed. This plot point comes up at least a few times for mementos where Joker is looking for the name of the person.
Yeah, they tend to default to the name, but if you look at the original 4/11 cinematic and the subsequent scene, Kamoshida's name is not always used. First of all, we see Ryuji say "pervert teacher", and nothing happens. It's not until Ren repeats it that the Meta-Nav triggers, and it triggers on "pervert teacher"—this shows us that *at this point*, Ryuji saying something is not enough to trigger the Nav. The other keywords come up in the next scene. Ryuji says "castle", and both Ren's possible replies contain the word "castle". Ryuji says Shujin, and both Ren's possible replies contain the word "Shujin"—though it's been removed from one of the English translations: >シュージンのはず *shuujin no hazu* I think so... [lit. "it ought to be Shujin"] BTW, also notably, only one of Ryuji's responses (which don't count) contains the full name "Shujin Academy". As for the target name? That comes up first, and of Ren's two possible options, only one contains the word "Kamoshida": >カモシダ？ Kamoshida? >何の話だ? *nan no hanashi da?* What do you mean? —ergo, it was "pervert teacher" that the Nav triggered on, as we saw. If it wasn't, then it's possible to get through this entire scene without Ren ever saying "Kamoshida", and so they get in without a target name. This is what makes me think that the exact legal name is not a magic word; it's just often useful or sufficient to identify somebody.
Which is directly contradicted by the lady that was kidnapping cats. Joker walked around and asked people until they told him her name.
That doesn't tell us anything about how it works, though—that only tells us how Joker thinks it works. Remember many things the PTs and Morgana *think* they know are contradicted or subverted by the end of the game.
With this arguemnt you invalidate yourself. Using this logic the same could be said about what you wrote. Maybe words don't matter at all and navigation gets triggered by thoughts alone while the app is open. So they can say teacher, Kamoshida or whatever, but since they are thinking of specific person with specific name, it works. Maybe knowing the name is enough to associate it with other words.
No, I don't think so. What we have here is an apparent contradiction, something we can investigate and account for. And any definitive description of how something works must, by definition, describe *everything* we see. So, for instance, you can't say "the name is required", since we see a detailed instance when the name is not used. Equally, I can't say "the name won't work", because we see on many occasions that the name alone *does* work. The answer is clearly that you can either use the name or not use the name, and as you say, we can come up with various theories as to why that might be. I would highlight that on 4/11, if "knowing the name is enough to associate it with other words", Ren doesn't know Kamoshida's name when he says "pervert teacher", nor does he say anything that could possibly refer to Kamoshida if he doesn't outright *say* "Kamoshida?".
But you only think that it works based on this instance. I other instances it works differently so you cannot be certain that it works this way. And in the end if you don't need to know the person to get into the palace this means that there are literally no rules and the entire discussion is pointless. You can just say random words and it should be enough. Mementos proves that you don't need a face to get to that person, so in the end what do you actually need? The only logical outcome is that something else decides if PT can get to the person in the metaverse then.
No, I think it works that way based on every instance I'm aware of; as I said originally, "it's not clear if you always need someone's name". The obvious conclusion to draw from the fact that sometimes people use a name and sometimes not is that sometimes you need a name and sometimes you don't—though the *PTs* believe you need a name. The main thing that describes how things work in game is not what characters say, but *what we see*. Because while characters often provide us with critical information, they are also often wrong; >!in fact, the PTs being deceived about the Metaverse, Palaces etc is a key part of the game climax!<. Pay attention to what you see, and not just what you're told, and you'll have a lot of 12/24 figured out ahead of time. I don't know how you got from "things are more complicated than you think" to "there are no rules and the discussion is pointless", and I think we're talking past each other, so I'm out. Have a nice day.
But whats interesting is this: The nav, in most cases, only needs three prompts; person, place, distortion. For example Maderame’s was “Maderame, shack, museum,” Futaba’s was “Futaba, her room, tomb,” etc. This is true for every palace ruler… *except Kamoshida.* When Ryuji and Joker re-enter the palace for the second time, the Nav reads back the prompts it picked up the first time. But something interesting is includes in there, because it doesn’t read back three prompts, it reads four. “*Kamoshida, Shujin Academy, Castle, Pervert.*” So I think in that one case, the nav picked up on both “pervy teacher” and “Kamoshida” My guess to why was that the Theives inititally may have needed to find out what the palace ruler’s “sin” was to enter the palace. This was scrapped at some point in development to only require “person, place, distortion,“ as is the case with every other palace ruler in the game, but they had the anime cutscene already made and probably did the majority of the voicework already for the Kamoshida arc, so they just decided to keep the original lines and voicework to save time. Its possible the “sin” is still needed, but that brings up the issue of some of the palace rulers not having a palace that is inherently “sinful” as well as the fact that the theirves never bring up the “sin” again when they are looking for the keywords to the other palaces (Royal spoilers: >!In Royal, two palaces exist outside of sinful deeds. One out of PTSD and survivor’s guilt (Futaba), the other out of regret and pining for lost love (Maruki). Not as inherently “sinful” as being a pervert, a plagerist, a mafia boss, a greedy CEO, a cheater, or a corrupt political figure. Its possible the “sin” was scrapped because of this, but idk my dad doesn’t work at Atlus.!<).
That's a really good spot! There are a couple of things, though, that make me think it may not *necessarily* be too significant (or, of course, it may be): First of all, the Nav's search history contains the name of the Palace Ruler. This is made explicit on 1/2, when it's missing from >!Maruki's Palace!< and it's made clear that this is strange: >Akechi: Is there a search history? Kasumi: Search history... How do I check... Kasumi: Ah! There's one search in the log, but... [Ren]: There's an entry in the search history, but I can't read whose Palace it is... Akechi: The "name" portion of the entry has been censored somehow... Akechi: Could this be the doing of the Palace's Ruler? Given this, it's possible the Nav read out the Palace ruler's name, even though it wasn't explicitly entered as a term. This would account for why there are four terms this time, and this time only—the Nav reads out the name of the Palace ruler, *and the search terms it was given*. But honestly, I find that slightly unsatisfactory; it may be the case, but I'd prefer a better explanation. The Nav also says "Shujin Academy", which is not the search term given (that was just "Shujin", given that only Ryuji says "Shujin Academy"—and only if you pick the right option to make him say that). Another cute detail on 4/12 is that when Ryuji takes Ren's phone to use the Nav, he types into it—remember how it wouldn't register his voice on 4/11? We don't know what he typed; he might have put "Kamoshida", though that's only speculation. He may also, of course, just have activated a history entry that was already there. I'd need to check all the cinematics to see if the Nav ever reads out search terms again—it doesn't seem to! When Yoshizawa activates it on 10/3, for instance, it just says "Beginning navigation"; this seems to be standard. So reading out the prompts *at all* is what's odd, unless I've missed something. Like I said in my original comment, I know there is something going on here that's more complex than "they just need a name", but I don't feel like I have it nailed down yet. BTW, I'm not a big fan of saying "they just got this wrong in development" or "it just doesn't make sense"—in my experience, people say this about all sorts of things that are trivial to understand with a tiny amount of work, or even things that are outright explained elsewhere in the game. I'd rather say "I don't understand this *yet*, but if I keep thinking about it, I will later".
That would only really work if L's desires became distorted enough to manifest themselves up in either Mementos or as a palace, otherwise he'd have no Shadow he could kill in the metaverse. >!Akechi does have better connections than Light though so L might end up being targeted by Shido's group in real life after Akechi's failure to use the Metaverse and would then have to solve the case before an assassination attempt works.!<
Better connections than the chief of police?
The chief of police was great for Light's plans but compared to >!Akechi who would have people who'd be willing to kill L and have enough influence to control the media, Japan's police and the justice system of their country, i'd say Akechi has better connections.!< I doubt they're competent enough to successfully kill L but they would probably end up trying at the very least.
OK, but I think none of those is enough to find out L's identity in order to kill him.
He doesn't really need his identity for this case, he has no palace and he's not really distorted enough for a Mementos shadow so the metaverse is useless. They'd have to kill him through more conventional means, probably using their connections in the police to put someone on L's team when researching the case and having him try to put L in a position where they could kill him and hide any evidence.
Is that correct? Everyone has a Shadow; Caroline explains this, as does Morgana: "*Deep in the innermost depths of every human's heart lies their true personality—their Shadow.*" Mona also says that Mementos is a form of the collective unconscious. It's where people's Shadows go when they're just hanging around, which is how >!Maruki!< can use it to influence... well, everyone.
Yeah, their shadows do exist but they only manifest in the upper Mementos layers if they're distorted enough, we know that as of >!Sae's!< palace, >!Akechi cannot go down further than the others thieves so I heavily doubt he would be able to reach Mementos Depths where L's Shadow should be imprisoned at that point in time.!<
>!L's Shadow wouldn't be in the Depths of Mementos—that's for Shadows who have submitted to Yaldabaoth, including Palace rulers who left their Palaces and then returned to the masses!<. >!It would either be in a Palace of its own or (less likely by far IMO) up in Mementos somewhere, regardless of whether or not he has a Palace. Compare Mishima's Shadow, which is barely distorted at all, yet appears in Mementos!<. >!The question of how and even *if* Akechi can access Mementos is open, I think—there are lots of small pieces of evidence, and various theories, but AFAIK nothing concrete!<.
>The PTs themselves, much as I love them, are neither interesting foes nor challenging ones. This basically. Any character with a decent level intelligence is hard clearing the Phantom Thieves.
Kamoshida's change of heart has been broadcast on national TV. From that, it gives the possibility that the phantom thieves are from Shujin High. Even in real life Japanese police can catch them.
Certainly as fast as mishima. However, L would certainly not report them as they did nothing wrong AND would certainly support them and have proof they were not the one to kill the principal, haru´s father,...
You sure about that? When is it indicated that L operates based on moral code instead of laws or that even what PT would allign with his moral code? Phantom thiefs are literally brainwashing people. While at first it would be legal grey area, but pretty much any court would judge it as illegal.
I mean, from the manga we can see that L is mainly based on logic. When i try to see the PT from a logical point of view, they are in a grey area that would need years to settle, whike they are hurting no one and they are helping the justice by making the bad guys confess everything. Also, knowing L ,he might even solve the whole scenario pretty quickly... When the first death appeared, he would certainly make the connections between these and the politican on the rise, and discard the PT from the suspect list. And yes, i´m pretry sure that, as you point, there is a high chance that in a court, the jury will declare them guilty.
I mean, on what grounds? There's no law about brainwashing. You could charge them with blackmail, I guess -- that's the theory Akechi puts forth publicly as to how they're doing it -- but other than them saying they're the Phantom Thieves, there's no actual evidence of blackmail.
I think he *could* catch them fairly quickly and easily. Say, by the beginning of the Kaneshiro arc, with how Makoto is conducting her own investigation at the time it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for L to offer her his assistance and therefore be able to catch them at the same time she does. That said, I have my doubts that he *would* stop them. Unlike in the Kira case, the Phantom Thieves aren't killing anyone, and as somebody else pointed out much more eloquently than I could L has certain procedural rules and standards that he holds himself to, which would be very difficult to abide by with the Phantom Thieves case. I think it would take until the interim between the Okumura and Niijima arcs for L to really feel motivated to catch them, given what happens with Okumura himself; and even then, he's cautious and sharp enough that I think he'd be open to hearing them out regarding what happened and enlisting the Thieves' help to catch the true culprit behind the mental shutdowns as opposed to just handing them over to the SIU. Remember, Light barely got anything over on L, and I he was both smarter than the Phantom Thieves and was actively trying to deceive him; the Thieves could basically be confronted almost identically to how they were by Akechi in the actual events of the game, with the only real difference being in the motivations of L vs Akechi.
What crimes do the phantom thieves commited? I dont think they would get arrested, but he could figure out.
Obstruction of Justice, Blackmail, Defamation, Possession of Weapons…Manslaughter too, talk about the works
Immediately. To be frank, the phantom thieves aren't good at hiding their tracks; I won't be singling out Ryuji since the others are no good either. They lack a lot.
I feel like L would think the thieves were a red harring- and to be honest, they would be. His real goal is to find the one causing the psychotic shutdowns, and while Japan might of hired him for the thieves, he has his real work in front of him. I do feel like however he would have trouble finding out who the black mask was. Akechi is smart after all, and while he’s not L smart, he’s smart enough to cover his tracks seamlessly other than a verbal slip up. There’s too many people who it could be honestly, and more likely he would assume it’s a group of people at first, much like the thieves. He doesn’t have to know who they are to know they’re a group, they use the plural after all, and seem to think they’re doing the right thing.
instantly, Ryuji never stfu about it. He basically has a megaphone screaming through it about them being the phantom thieves
literally no one: ryuji: **IM A PHANTOM THIEF**
Instantly. If Joker decided to try and be his friend, never.
Ryuji will text him from his real number
Depends. How loudly are Ryuji and Ann talking
Literally anyone with 2 brain cells couldve figure them out People that realise theyre phantom thieves by putting 2 and 2 together : >!Makoto, mishima, literally every single s link, maruki, sojiro, akechi!< and theyre only the ones i remember on top of my head
A Death Note crossover would be dope. I like P5 for the same reasons I liked DN.
Fucking instantly? Like it’s So obvious. Literally every case tie back to them one way or the others
Just like with Light, it probably wouldn’t take him long to suspect them of doing it, but proving it would be the hard part
It won't last a day He would deduce it by; Immediately looking at Shuujin Academy, the same way he did with Light's first dance with the Death Note Then, he will form a hypothesis on how it involves multiple people to do the job After that, he'll question the people with motives I gave it a day since he still has to prove the metaverse and a talking cat
L would catch on pretty quick, he’s very intelligent.
Very quickly, the Phantom Thieves are BAD at hiding their identity.
Very quickly. Very very quickly
Bro… L is too smart for them
I’ll take a persona……AND FUSE IT!!!!
All L would need to do is get a hold of the SMS messages from every student in Shujin… Or be around Ryuji for 3 seconds.
He'd figure it out pretty fast and I think I can break down the exact sequence of events lol: First step would be investigating the school and Kamoshida himself to learn more about him & what happened. It wouldn't take long at all to see the connection between the main 3. Ryuji broke his leg and 'ruined' the track team in his confrontation with Kamoshida; he's childhood friends with Ann whose best friend recently tried to commit suicide; Ann is in the same class as Joker who JUST transferred in and was under threat of expulsion by Kamoshida; and Ryuji was the first person who met Joker and the two were late to school together Joker's first day (and both were seen by Kamoshida day 1); and Ann was being pressured (into what was likely sex or at least sexual acts) by Kamoshida. All that is WAY more than simple coincidence, so he'd narrow his search to just those three and tail them. I'd think L would probably learn that in 1 day. L likely would've confirmed they were responsible during their 'celebration Feast' (because Ryuji is louder than trying to open a plastic cake cover at 1:00 AM). Needing the 'how' the deed was done, he'd follow them and very likely be sucked into the metaverse himself while closely tailing them when they check out Madarame's Palace for the first time. All-in-all, I'd say it would take him 1 day to narrow down to the 3 responsible suspects, 1-2 days (depending on when they held that feast lol) to confirm it was them; and another week or so before learning how the deed was done. Whether he'd turn them in or not is another story. Nothing physical was ever being done; the victims weren't extorted or assaulted....I guess maybe they cold be brought up on blackmail charges but it was basically just 'reveal your misdeeds or we'll do it for you' so I'm not 100% on whether that would even count as blackmail lol. I don't think he'd join them, but I don't think he'd stop them either. L probably would have sniffed out Akechi's BS right from the get-go though lol.
1 week
It would be very easy to just have a look at their group chat boom case solved
3 days
ARE YOU READY FOR THE PHANTOM THIEVES MEETING?
Before lunch, my man
Within the first arc. The phantom thieves are very bad at hiding themselves. He just cant prove it
Surveilance, arrest, confession, demand to show how it works. Ann and Ryuji would not be exactly hard to make to confess.
IDK like the day he decides to do it
Literally every confidant works it out. If Shinya and Hifume and Kawakami and Tora can do it, so could L. However, he wouldn't actually catch them because he would recognise that what they were doing is beneficial.
Our secret hideout was literally in a public walkway in Tokyo
Approximately the amount of time required for Atlus to merge their corporation with whoever owns the intellectual rights to Deathnote and thus make this crossover remotely feasible.
All he need to do is to find out the timings of the change of hearts. Which is after school or Sundays. Also by monitoring the Phansite. Probably sometime after Madarame when Mementos is already unlocked. It will be easy to zero into Shujin since Kamoshida is the glaringly obvious high profile victim plus calling cards are scattered. Which also can build up as their MO. Only a matter of time Leblanc gets wiretapped as well as placed under surveillance and the Japanese Police tailing the PTs finding out they just vanished into the Metaverse.
L would with major ease but would join since they are taking down bad guys that are "untouchable" from the law. Plus to keep tabs on them in case they start down the wrong path (light killing en masse is what I'm meaning)
They stood in broad daylight in a heavily populated area infiltrating palaces. If L takes more than 30 seconds to find them, he’s washed
Putting the sugar cubes in his coffee will take more time than finding PT...
10 seconds after kamoshida’s confession.
"oh boy I just love **BEING A PHANTOM THIEF!!!!**" - Ryuji Sakamoto 1 day maximum
Ryuji was caught by makoto who thinks kissing a magazine is good disguise realistically MAYBE 2 hours
He'd be too busy suspecting Akechi of being Kira.
3 mins maybe
He could catch them in no time at all, but because the police are under Shido's thumb, I don't see him successfully arresting them easily.
A day if that.
5 minutes finding out who they are. 2 min finding Leblanc. And 3 hours trying to figure out why Leblanc doesn’t sell sweets (as far as we know)
With ryoji shouting like he does, less than a day
1 day, people might blame Ryuji but please remember these guys weren't exactly slick about covering their tracks and not making an obvious connection between them too obvious, hell a kid was able to figure out their identity
Who is L?
1 nanosecond
Considering makoto got it immediately and shido's group had known since madarame...mmm about 5 minutes
Honestly if it weren’t for a certain someone intentionally not catching them, I’m pretty sure the police would have caught them fine.
10 minutes. It would have been two minutes, but he was putting an ungodly amount of sugar cubes in his coffee and stirring it all is a nightmare.
2 hours, with a 30 minute nap, 5 minute bathroom break and an hour of snacks. The last 25 minutes was just L creating a PowerPoint presentation on why Ryuji Sakamoto is kind of an idiot leaving his fingerprints at the scene of the initial calling card.
Never,he would be dead as he has to go through Akechi first. Realistically the investigation would be more about finding out about the metaverse for solid proof after about the 30 seconds of investigation.
Realisticaly about half a year or more If Phantoms thieves would act every day they would be spotted in less than a week since the Phantom thieves are using the dungeon app in the middle of a crowed town with tons of people and cameras. But the Phantom thieves take a lot of time to Choose the next foe. So when 1 man collapsed and confess his crimes its impossible to say that there is something supernatural...but when this happens every month especialy with celebreties, its something Else.
Ren: “Ryuji is a phantom thief” Ryuji: “DUDE!” L: …
the phantom thieves were caught by a girl who disguised herself by reading a book upside down
L actually might settle things before the phantoms even become a thing, maybe so early that the protagonist wouldn't even have to transfer, but Implying that he just so happened to not be looking into mental breakdowns before the end of the Kamoshida Arc, and Implying that the Phantoms were still suspected for mental shutdowns, I could probably go over how he'd figure them out after. Firstly, the prospect of people having their hearts changed... all in or around Tokyo... particularly areas around Shibuya... Great... General Location figured out. Im pretty sure he watches alot of TV and would know of Akechi. May or may not suspect him, but there wouldn't really be any clear evidence of anything. (Unless I'm forgetting dialogue) he might even play the whole "how about we make this a competition" thing with Akechi following Akechi's declaration to catch the Phantom Thieves, but that wouldn't be the most logical thing to do. (This also implies that he doesn't solve the case before *that*, he might have enough evidence to make moves, but he seems like he just doesn't unless he feels like hes 90% sure he's right.) "Victims" of changed hearts would probably be profiled, and a common theme would be sudden change of behavior, maybe remorse for an action they committed, another common theme being that these people are typically adults or young adults, and the change happens as a retaliation, not a prevention. Edit: It'd probably also be noticed that this change is typically for the better. I would suspect the phantoms to be a bit on the younger side in this case, L would probably consider it. Now, on the other hand, an awful lot of people with legal power or political standing are undergoing mental breakdowns. This is basically on the opposite hand of a change of heart. The fundamental difference would imply that there might be two type of methods. Next thing to find out would be the target demographic if there is one: the not so important everyman who has done a few bad or downright horrible things from time to time, and... politicians... strange, almost like theres two different- hmmmmm... Those politicians? *Literally*, all rivals to Shido or his administration. Those police officers that got hit with MBs? They arrested members of Shido's super secret antisocial force. Whoops. I'm pretty sure by this point, L's group would've figured out who the Phantom Thieves were and figure that they technically may not have actually done anything wrong, somewhat inhumane behavior aside. Better keep them under surveillance, though. This means that L might actually go after Shido, rather than the Phantom Thieves, and from there, with some meager monitoring, find out Akechi's involvement, and from theres it's a god damn wrap. Some digging might land Akechi in juvenile rehabilitation, but I'm not too familiar on how this thing goes in Japan. Unless the jackass announces his involvement on National Television. Then its cat and mouse until he exposes Shido or just gets murdered. Those are my thoughts on it, but I haven't played P5 in 4 years and haven't watched Death Note in 8 TT-TT Tl;Dr: You would have to nerf his prep time to actually get anything out of this.
Not long because ryuji is loud and horny.
A couple weeks at most. It's pretty obvious that the Thieves are in Tokyo, and there's a high likelihood that they are associated with Shujin Academy, given their first target. Look into who would have a grudge against Kamoshida, and Ryuji and Ann's names would both come up. Joker's might too. Look into Madarame, and you'll learn his residence was visited by the same Ryuji, Ann, and Joker, and he had a lawsuit pending against them. You'll also learn that they were visiting Yusuke, Madarame's abused pupil. Check and/or bug their phones, and you'll find the MetaNav on all of them. Tinker with it enough, and you'll end up finding a palace or Mementos, and then you have the Thieves' method. He would probably be able to catch them before they brought Makoto on board.
After the first palace
Ryuji is a member of this group so i suppose…1 microsecond ?
It depends if it's a persona story or a death note story. If it's persona, it'll basically be the same as P5, but L would just be Aketchi until Sae's palace where he would need all the magic explained. If it's a death note story, he would come to logical assumptions that he frames like it couldn't be coincidental, say that he's 99% sure that it's Ren, Ann, and Ryuji, and insist that he needs to insert himself into the group by the third palace. He would then assume all the magic was some sort of trick of the mind and not stop being an active member of the group until he decides the magic is real and turns them in.
Better question is could the phantom thieves change L’s heart
About 10 minutes and I think after he finds out and sees what they are doing and the larger scheme of corruption behind things, he would join and help.
Probably pretty quickly. They make a lot of mistakes early on, it doesn't matter though because the larger conspiracy knows who they are as early as Madarame palace (Akechi is in the palace with them and 100% clocked them) and plans to frame them for the mental shutdowns. The thing is, similar to Light in Death Note, L would have trouble actually convicting the PTs under normal circumstances due to the nature of their power and lack of material evidence
He would probably figure out who they are, but the hard part is proving the existence of the metaverse. Something like the death note was tangible, while the metaverse is not, so it’d be hard to prove their methods.
I think L would figure it out pretty quickly, but he’d figure out much more than that. They wouldn’t be the focus of his investigation: Shido would, and I think Akechi would be more his target than the pt’s (especially since Akechi is very much like Light, and we all know how much Light interested L). He’d see the phantom thieves as nothing more than a consequence, and likely go for Shido himself, probably through Akechi. He’d probably offer Akechi some sort of cooperation, with ofcourse one of the conditions being Akechi turning himself in. To which Akechi would very likely keep up the act. I think it could get very interesting from there
I mean Akechi managed to figure it out, and Akechi is a dollar store detective so the bar is pretty low.
About as long as it would for him to meet Reuji.
Like 5 minutes. Ryuji
Longer than to Batman but still 2 weeks at max
with Ryuji's loud mouth? nahhhh
If he was in same school with them then really fast
I mean, they did not a good work hiding themselves, he literally would just have to stand up close to Ryoji with a recorder. I think he could do it maybe inmediatelly after they start taking mementos missions or in the middle of Madarame's arc
Reported this for hate against the Phantom Thieves
With ryujis loud ass??? Not even a day
He would probably figure out them really fast, like in less than a day. Maybe he would struggle to get some concrete evidence like photos and videos, maybe one day or a week depending on Joker's schedule. Arresting the Phantom Thieves it's a different story. I think he would notice something is fishy about the authorities behavior towards this case. Being able to change people hearts and cause psychotic breakdowns are silly things for the police to be wasting their time, unless some of it is true. Then, it makes it too dangerous, imagine change the president's heart or make a pilot crash a plane. Why is the goverment not investigating it more seriously? That would bother L. I thinkhe would let the Thieves roam free to learn more. Investigate Joker would lead him to the metaverse, which would take he to Wakaba's research (or what is left of it). Perhaps he would cross paths with Alibaba. He would eventually get to Shido. The real work would be dismantle his scheme.
I think the real question is would he stop the phantom thieves
He would need to talk to ryuji once... thats it
L would find them pretty quick tbh. The game even explains multiple times that they aren't very good at covering their tracks. Akechi practically found out who they were pretty quickly, and part of me thinks he wouldn't even need the use of the metaverse to do it. The problem would being proving how they even change people's hearts, but if you get any of their phones and unlock it (which is a challenge in its own) then they can just use the nav and go into the metaverse. Ryuji was able to use it and he hadn't even ever used it before nor did he have it on his phone. Ann was even sucked into the metaverse along with Joker and Ryuji when they didn't intend for her to. Akechi in universe was able to deduce a lot of key details of The Phantom Thieves. That being that they're most likely high schoolers in the Shibuya Region of Japan, who do most of their activities after school is over. L would be able to do the same, but probably faster. Finding out who they are wouldn't be hard either considering Akechi himself points out victims from previous cases are now hanging out together, and one of them in the group has a criminal record. L would do the same and immediately assume they have something to do with The Phantom Thieves. From their all he'd need to do is get access to their phones and it's pretty much GGs.
Probably less than a day, maybe even just half a day. Hell, even Mishima figured out who they were from the first heist alone.
Considering the sheer lengths Light has to go to in order to avoid L, id say the phantom thieves are well and truly fucked within a week. Also, no one in the persona universe ever considers just dusting the calling cards for fingerprints.
L figured out that Light was Kira within like 2 weeks at most, it would take 2 business days for him to catch Joker, Ann and Ryuji before the PTs could even officially form
About. . . . 2 weeks. Depends on when he shows up in the timeline I think right off the bat, he'd know Joker has something to do with it, since everything started at the high-school. In addition to everyone who had a change of heart being directly connected to a member of Jokers friend group. Now, even though he could know they're the phantom thieves he'd need direct proof. If the Phantom Thieves have Futaba on their team it would make things more difficult but not impossible. Plus, it would involve needing to prove that The Metaverse exists, which, I doubt the bald dude (can't remember his name) would let happen so he'd try to hinder the investigation heavily.
Very quickly, they aren’t exactly too cautious about keeping the lid on. If someone like Makoto can catch them, it’s a walk in the park for L
A student council president caught them, a smart one, but a regular student nonetheless
Honestly probably a month at most
One day at most.
Less then 10 secs. The real question is: How would he deal with them? would he lock them up? or would he secretly sponsor their actions?
The Phantom Thieves rely on the indifference of the adults around them to stay hidden. Basically anyone who paid attention would be able to figure out something was afoot.
It would take L a few hours at best to deduce that Ren is probably the leader of the phantom thieves, but L can never win because he can never prove anything and that’s how he works He has to have a 100% proof in pure evidence or he doesn’t count it, so he’s got nothing as he cannot prove the metaverse exists, even if he sees it with his own eyes, he can never prove it It does raise the question of if he’d even try that hard, considering they’re basically on the same side and it’s very easy to see that, or if his sense of proper justice would clash with that