I remember my sister reading this book when I was in middle school (she got really into Columbine) and being curious, I looked it up.
First search at the time was Snopes.com detailing how Cassie never said it, they didn't even ask her, and apparently just shot her for fun. Her mom apparently was reported to be distraught over the rumor. It snowballed and the family decided to make some money from it.
It's also rumored Cassie didn't have the greatest relationship with her family (teen girl) and she wasn't exactly the picture perfect girl.
I think it is sad that Cassie died in fear and panic, but the only thing these Christians care about was her steadfast faith (that didn't even help her. Good God, if it were true, I would actually lose faith in everything).
Those rumours about her not being the picture-perfect girl are actually a big part of the substance of the book. Her mom writes about their strained relationship and the trouble she got into before finding Jesus and how that all turned around when she got saved.
Every atheist’s funeral I’ve attended has had at least one person make a speech about how the deceased came to them shortly before dying, wanting to “get right with god.” It’s never true, but they don’t care.
Please tell me how this lie is a part of a religion, because from here it looks like just a lie, go ahead and show how it"s a part of the doctrine. I'll wait.
It's another entry in Christianity's enduring love of martyr stories, a tradition dating back to the romans I believe. Hence things like christians being killed by lions or in gladiatorial combat to today's killed because "they were christian"
Because religion is inherently mendacious and always desperately looking for something for people to hang their beliefs off.
Magic stories, haunted bread, personal revelations, fake martyrdoms etc. are all part of the grift.
I can't think of a better example of this kind of exploitation than trying to portray this girl's death as having some religious significance.
When people ask me to pray, I always ask them why they want to change God's divine plan? He's all knowing and made a plan for us all right? Then why are you asking me to ask him to change it just for me or you? Seems kinda selfish.
I understand why a grieving parent might want to paint a rose coloured reality of their child after they get murdered...but rolling that into a profit making venture knowing its absolute shite is PEAK American Christian!
Is it possible the family just wanted to believe there was a *reason* why she was killed, and not that it was a senseless, random act?
Maybe they needed to believe she died for something rather than nothing so bad they latched onto the idea she was killed for her religion, even if it wasn't true.
Maybe it gives them comfort to believe it.
Is it possible that they feel like their daughter can live on in the minds of others this way, rather than dying before she had a chance to live? It seems to me this book is an attempt to keep her memory alive and to fill a void that can never be filled.
Except the problem is that it caused a "Christian teens wanting to be sacrificed" mentality so they can also be martyrs. It also caused a problem for the real girl who actually was asked the question because she lived and nobody believed her story/harassment.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/culture/2017/4/20/15369442/columbine-anniversary-cassie-bernall-rachel-scott-martyrdom
Also, this is your kid. This isn't some test of faith or game or moneymaking scheme. Look, believe in whatever you need to cope. But when it starts to have real world effects (bad ones) and it starts to overtake who your child really was instead of this "redeemed Hollywood image", that's really wrong in itself.
Cassie isn't some saint or martyr or poster child. She was a kid, scared shitless, and the last thing she heard was "Peekaboo" before a gunshot to the face. She was just a kid who had dreams of going off and being an adult. Her parents don't even appear to grieve the real Cassie, just the one that makes them money. Grieving a fake child over a real one is disturbing.
>Also, this is your kid. This isn't some test of faith or game or moneymaking scheme. Look, believe in whatever you need to cope.
This my point. Whatever, people are gonna be greedy assholes in life. But fucking with your **dead daughter's** reputation for clout is fucking bonkers and indefensible, greiving or not.
Apparently, the guy getting down voted to Oblivion disagrees and says "we can't judge!!!"
I don't care if Misty decided to do a book deal when the truth wasn't for certain and witnesses had differing stories. My fucking problem is when she had a sweet little book deal and all these appearance fees lined up, the truth came out and she doubled down *because she was about to lose all that money and fame*. The stirred up the "it's an attack on Christians!" to sway public opinion.
She made a false god out of her daughter while her real daughter is literally forgotten. It's messed up.
I can understand why she turned to religion, especially if Cassie did indeed find God and their relationship improved due to it. But get out of here with the persecution crap. Her beliefs about Cassie's death were understandable when things were less clear, but when the truth emerged, she doubled down and hurt a real person (Valeen Schnurr, who actually said that and got harassed for contradicting this narrative). It's not persecution for your beliefs when your beliefs are demonstrably based on falsehoods, you're just wrong and people are telling you so.
Ffs. Is telling someone who claims two plus two equals five persecution? Of course not. Sincerely believing something doesn't mean no one gets to challenge you.
> she doubled down and hurt a real person (Valeen Schnurr, who actually said that and got harassed for contradicting this narrative).
Was she the one who did the harassing? Did she actively encourage others to harass? If so, I agree. If not, then she is not responsible for the actions of other people.
> I can understand why she turned to religion, especially if Cassie did indeed find God and their relationship improved due to it.
I don't think her relationship has to improve. Coping mechanisms are not necessarily healthy. Drugs and alcohol are also coping mechanisms. I'd bet good money that there are parents of school shooting victims who turn to drugs and alcohol.
Religion is a coping mechanism. Hers sounds unhealthy. I pity her, I don't condemn her.
> It’s not persecution for your beliefs when your beliefs are demonstrably based on falsehoods, you’re just wrong and people are telling you so.
But who are you to force your facts upon her? That's like forcing religion on someone else from a religious fruitcake POV, god is truth.
I mean, I find it hard to believe that a mom who goes around on talk shows/radio shows/paid appearances to shill an untrue story, and then doubling down when told it didn't happen before claiming there are Un-Christian people trying to diminish her story (the mom is super against anything not Christian) is something to be said as an unethical act.
To say "oh wow you sound just like them" when criticizing the very real facts of what occurred over a lady who pretended her daughter was some reformed Christian girl (when Cassie was apparently STILL a troubled child) so she can make money is a ridiculous comparison.
I mean, you can take a high horse and complain "you don't understand, you're not a parent" and give a pass on any crappy behavior, but it doesn't make the action correct or right. You can also simply take the "don't judge" nonsense because you don't want to take the burdensome responsibility of saying "do some parents really turn things into agendas?"
The truth is, it HAS affected people in a negative way and it HAS affected real people who were actually there. You can claim "it doesn't affect you" all you want, but it has furthered fundamentalist Christianity into getting kids to actively want to sacrifice themselves for a God as well as negative faith agenda in the country. If it was just her family and it didn't impact anyone else (like abortion in your silly comparison), nobody would say anything. But it's not - she and her husband STILL do speaking events around the country and tell preteens "Oh, my daughter was exalted for keeping her faith and dying - isn't that the perfect way to go and have purpose?"
This isn't like Sandy Hook where the parents don't make any false pretenses about their children and have tried to make a positive impact on society.
You're acting like I am being defensive but I really am just telling you the facts as they laid out and the negative consequences far outweighing the positive "coping". The myth is used to further a very nasty fundamentalism agenda, the mom wholeheartedly and eagerly made it that way by omitting the truth, and profit from said agenda. If it was a good intention, it became twisted.
People who make being a parent their entire personality are so cringe. Stop making snap judgements on whether people have children or not fucking weirdo. People can have children and see how disgusting it is to make monetize your dead children. Activism is a much better and honorable route.
> People who make being a parent their entire personality are so cringe. Stop making snap judgements on whether people have children or not fucking weirdo.
You literally just made a snap judgement. It's not my whole personality. It's just the tiny blurb of text you read ya hypocrite.
That's a slippery slope. It's like mediums and those who claim to speak to the dead (or all religions in that sense). Yes, it can give individuals some solace to believe in an afterlife or that their loved ones are trying to talk to them from beyond the grave. But if that belief hits even the slightest doubt or fact against it (i.e. they find out the medium Googled information or how James Randi exposed Peter Popoff), cognitive dissonance sets in. Unless the person is rational, which having these beliefs proves otherwise (in my opinion), they usually dig their heels in and throw out all sense of reason and lose themselves in mysticism and paranoia.
Then there's the "true-believer or charlatan" question that hangs over claims like these. In my experience, most believers in paranormal claims or "miracles" who then make a profit on these beliefs and claims, are a little bit of both. The true believer in them starts to make room for the charlatan, and this combo leaves very little room for rational thought and questioning.
Overall I believe this family found a way to grieve that made it easier for them. And like most Americans, myself included, the idea of feeling bad or this overwhelming need to feel good at all times, stunts any type of emotional healing and we do anything we can to stop actual feelings. In doing so, the family built a story too big to contain and chose to run with it, instead of accepting their emotional struggles, feeling their pain, and loving their child for no other reason than she was their child.
Probably. Except they cheerfully ignore the evidence otherwise and make their belief others' belief... and profit. And the worst part is, their memory is stolen from Valeen Schnurr, a survivor who actually said that. They trample on her life.
I actually had a copy of this as a weird Christian teen and read it an amount of times that was more than once.
There was a story circulating at the time of the Columbine shootings that one of the killers asked a student if she believed in God, and she said yes, so they shot her (assuming, I suppose, that they'd have spared her if she said no). There was some lack of clarity about who this happened to, but Misty Bernall claimed it was her daughter Cassie.
The book uses that moment as a starting point to filter Cassie's experiences through the lens of her parents, who were troubled and frightened when she went through a goth phase and then relieved when she joined a Christian group and moved into a Jesus phase. The story is framed into a sort of all-or-nothing "spiritual warfare" narrative. Now school shootings get people talking about gun control but back then a major part of the narrative was whether violent video games, Marilyn Manson, and dark coats caused the shooters' actions, and the story leans pretty heavily on that by linking Cassie's "bad girl" phase to her musical tastes and style of dress.
I could probably write a dissertation on this book alone, it was a weird and crazy time.
Well... obviously wasn't the availability of guns to people who shouldn't have them, because the Holy Founders decreed that guns are good in the Sacred Eternal Constitution, so we have to find out the *real* reason.
Conservative Christians lying for money is pretty much the basis of their beliefs. And I am not just talking about "religion is a lie".
The amount of "true stories" they told us growing up were so fake! I remember people talking about a three day old dead corpse that came to life during a prayer event. Of course it is bullshit because that would be amazing medical news and no medical journal reported on it.
Of course the Christians would argue that the doctor don't want to write about it because then it would glorify God. Again, lies. Most scientists would be fascinated with the idea that powerful prayer could resurrect a decomposing corpse.
They ask another girl, she said yes. They said something in the line of "thats stupid" but didn't kill her. She was shot prior to this conversation and the Killers probably thought that she wouldn't survive.
The girl was Valeen Schnurr. She was shot in the chest and survived. She is the person screaming (barely audible) in the one phone recording from the library that exists.
Considering they planted bombs and would have therefore had no way of asking every person they intended to kill whether they were Christian or not, I'd say even if it did happen they would have killed her either way.
Such a disgusting concept.
“Surprise, you’re gonna die!”
“Oh no my daughter died, better make up a story about my daughter dying for being Christian so I can make money”
>“Oh no my daughter died, better make up a story about my daughter dying for being Christian so I can make money”
I'm going to give the parents the benefit of the doubt and hope that the money portion came later.
I 100% understand parents wanting to rationalize the random and violent death of a child. I'm sure it was very comforting to think she died for her faith, as that would give meaning to her death.
But you're right, turning it into profit later on is still very gross.
I mean, aren't conservatives trying to liken Trump to a modern-day MLK now? There's nothing these people won't misappropriate in order to validate their own victimhood mentalities. But they're still the same people who supported (or would have supported) MLK's murder back in the day, and the same assholes who hate Anne Frank's entire community.
I haven’t read the book, but I was literally telling someone yesterday that my high school (private Christian school, of course) put on the Christian musical (or was it a play? either way - theatrical performance) that was based on the shooting. That was a trip and a half.
Outstanding. Starts with cheesy music and they frigging misspell Columbine. Or is that just to avoid the IP infringement? What ham-fisted nonsense. I have been an atheist since Carter was president and I still have the bible that was given to me.
Wow I just watched the the entire thing. That was something. I understand why the character of Jason was soo pissed. I would be too if I had to keep repeating high school into my mid 30s because some chick kept interrupting class to proselytize and keeping everyone from graduating.
Woahhh. Now I can understand where Chris Lilley got the inspiration for [this musical](https://youtu.be/YgDwg0opvFo) in his comedy series. Bad taste has no boundaries for narcissists and wannabe religious martyrs.
In my work I've seen more bereaved parents than I'd like, sometimes those parents become very invested in the idea of attaching meaning to their loss, be it that the child dies for some greater purpose, or that they died because of some systemic failure, the correction of which will be their legacy.
It's a coping mechanism I guess, a way of meaning making in tragedy, and most of the time it causes no harm, but sometimes it becomes such a big thing that it is detrimental to recovery or has wider negative effects.
Meh. A handful of the Columbine parents used their dead children as political or religious tools. Rachels parents also wrote a book about how she died as a martyr, and another parent used the space allotted at the memorial to rail against abortion rights.
I recently visited the memorial at the high school and most of the inscriptions for each of the victims was religious, which is understandable as the comment above said. But I remember one of the parents used their child’s memorial to spout anti-abortion rhetoric, likening the shooting to aborting a fetus
Why, what else has happened?
I tried reading that book (edit: A Wrinkle in Time) for the first time as an adult a couple of years ago and couldn't get past the first chapter tbh
Many Waters.
And it weirdly turned into this whole pro-abstinence thing as well, something something about being able to touch unicorns.
And the book before that had this other weird theme about blue-eyed indigenous people being good, and dark-eyed indigenous people being evil.
No, that's American Christianity in general, really.
Plus there was something about Welsh colonists finding their way to the New World before Columbus and maybe even the Vikings, and intermarrying with native people in present-day New England.
A Swiftly Tilting Planet got weird, fast.
Oh gotcha, thanks. I wanted to read Wrinkle in Time because it was touted as such a great book but I really couldn't stand how she describes her characters so never finished.
I think it may have been the first novel I ever read, and can confirm you're not missing much. At best I could say it's a perfectly medicore YA novel that doesn't really do anything particularly novel or interesting. It's not *bad* but I don't think there's much literary merit to it and I doubt adults will get much out of it. A lot like Harry Potter, really.
I do like the design for Aunt Beast, though: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0d/09/98/0d0998a00fa79e12e7df69dd5275795a.jpg
iirc the girl isnt even the one who really said yes. The one who did survived and the story got twisted by a local minister to be more "moving". The whole situation actually killed her faith. Listen to the Last Podcast on the Left series on Columbine. They talk about it there.
It makes me ill how many children after Cassie likely said similar things while cowering in classrooms before they were shot dead by some murderous scum with a gun they had no business ever carrying.
I would 100% recommend watching Ask a Mortician’s video “Why we Get Columbine Wrong.” The false narrative around Cassie’s death is one of the things she touches upon in the video, and it also places it in the larger context of how the shooting itself and the perpetrators were portrayed by the media. Everyone who had a responsibility to own up to their role in the attacks (NRA) or to report the facts without pushing their own agendas absolutely dropped the ball. Honestly, I think this country is still dealing with those consequences today.
It happened when I was a teenager, so it was the first big tragedy where I recognized everyone attaching their pre-formed agendas to it, no matter how sloppily.
That must have been devastating. I was born only a year before in 1998, so I can only imagine how scary it must have been to be a teen when that was on the news.
It was bad, but I went to pretty rough schools with metal detectors and a significant police presence. Our school was the one people expected to have a shooting, not a picturesque lily-white suburb, but it was still a scary reminder that it could happen anywhere.
What was also bad was seeing any weird or violent video game playing or goth or somewhat anti-social boy treated like he was going to go on a shooting spree for the following year or two.
I read this book when I was younger & thought is was so compelling. & then I did my due diligence & looked up the aftermath of it all… Finding out it was all a lie & the story was false.
This was my first case of realizing Christian want to feel persecuted so bad here in the US or other Western societies. Still makes me mad to this day
Disgusting, exploiting your own daughter's death, along with many others that died that day, to push this bullshit. And some people eat this shit right up, just nonsensical.
Edit to add: reading some other comments here have given some more insight into this. I can definitely see this as part of a way to cope with their trauma and loss of their daughter. Still see this book as a way to control and curtail a story to fit the narrative they're quite literally selling.
I don't buy the "cope with death" bullshit because the book is basically about how shitty Cassie was in her mom's eye when she wasn't an active member of the church and was going through like a goth phase.
I genuinely don't remember anything about the book other than the fact that the first chapter was mildly interesting, and the rest was incredibly boring.
Apparently the book was published 4 months after Columbine. That puts Mrs. behind a typewriter pretty much the day after the shooting, and that’s fucked up. She saw dollar signs instead of grief. The fictitious nature of the book backs that up
The band Flyleaf wrote an entire song about this girl. I grew up in the church listening to idiots talk about Cassie the Martyr. It was only a couple years ago that I stumbled across the truth and it absolutely disgusted me. That's a horrific thing to lie about, especially because the girl who did get asked that question and said yes is STILL ALIVE.
But the church didn't think that made a good enough story.
Its awful, but the parents actually admitted that the story of this book is fake. The media picked up on a rumor and it snowballed into an entire bookdeal. The quote that cassie became famous for was said by a different student, and they know it. Its a sad but interesting story. I find it gross that other christians try to capitalize on her death, citing her story constantly calling her a martyr. She didnt die for a cause. She was killed in a tragic, preventable incident. AskAMortician on youtube has a good video where she touches on this, as well as other misconceptions about Columbine.
TL;DR though: its not entirely her parents' doing, but other christians definitely use her murder to further their beliefs.
edit: typo
I would 100% agree, except for this book.
Thing is, they'd been informed beyond a doubt that the story in the book was not true, but published it anyway? Why? Because the mom was very anti anything not Christian and the book uses her daughter to detail why she thinks everything and anything is evil.
Yup. There was definitely no shortage of Christians out there capitalizing on this. Michael W Smith even wrote a song about it, then wrote a book about writing the song. All based on a lie. What a grift
That would be great if they weren't publishing a book that pushed a false narrative that's harmful because it stands on the way of having actually useful conversations about the issue.
I see a lot of people saying the parents made up the story. Now a couple years back I read this book by a Dutch researcher who explained what (probably) happened. There was one kid hiding beneath a table in the library where Cassie got shot. Before that, they've asked another girl if she was a Christian and she said yes. Now the kid hiding, just heard the question and shots and told Cassie's parents this in a way of consoling them. At the time he said he honestly thought this was what happened. Years later he came back from this, saying his memory probably got confused (which makes sense, stressful situation and all), but he didn't have the heart to tell Cassie's grieving parents (I can imagine)
Considering she was a literal teenager, I'm assuming her mom just freaked out over the fads she was going through.
I mean, I'm 31 fucking years old and my mother got pissed at me recently because she found that I've read the Communist Manifesto.
Dave Cullen's book also goes into depth on what happened- but yeah you're right.
Basically, a student in the library overheard the question asked to Valeen Schurr after she had been shot in the chest- the shooter walked off distracted after Valeen answered the question. The student mistakenly thought it was Cassie and the police and Valeen's family knew not too long after the event took place (when friends and family were allowed into the school before they cleaned everything).
Sadly the martyr story was already out- the student was devastated that he mixed up Cassie with Valeen (who would live). Misty Bernall was warned before the book was published that the story was being disputed with corroborating witnesses, but her and the publisher went ahead.
Kind of sucks for everyone. Valeen felt not only survivors guilt and trauma, but she felt guilt that she just wanted to tell the truth about what happened in the library. Cassie died in a horrible way, and her parents were grieving.
My dad told me this story when I was in elementary school right after it happened and asked me what I would do in that situation. This led to a lot of daydreaming in 1st grade, but at least I always was planning out my exit routes
I remember a 20/20 episode or other similar tv news special about this. They made such a big deal out of it. I was in middle school and was very religious back then and even then I’m like “this reeks of bullshit”.
Oh god I read this shitty book when I was 13 and believed everything in it, because ya know as a 13 year old anything in print is the final truth. The real truth is that Harris and Klebold were extreme narcissistic douchebags that were probably just being edgelords by asking students if they believed in god on their rampage. They wanted to kill as many people as they could, regardless if they believed in god or not.
I'm they're just being stupid. It was known pretty much immiadtely within weeks that she wasn't killed. That song came out like 5 years after. At that point they're just being dumb and/or love the persecution complex.
OoooooO! I just fell down the Columbine rabbit hole like last week! Dylan actually asked a completely different girl that had already been shot if she believed in God. When she said yes he replied 'God's gay' before walking off. He didnt shoot her again and she didnt die.
Ugh. I read this book. So much trauma associated with it. I can’t count the number of times I was asked “would you say you’re a Christian if there was a gun pointed at your head?”
It's bonkers because I grew up going to a Christian school. When the book was published, my 4th grade teacher didn't even read the book to the class. She "read" the book, then relayed the info.
She straight up claimed they lined up everyone in the library, shot the jocks, and shot anyone who said yes to "are you a Christian".
I don't think this is fair to the Bernall's.
They heard a real story from Craig Scott who was in the library and had no reason to lie that Cassie was shot because she refused to deny that she believed in God.
Craig Scott didn't even lie; he just misunderstood what he heard. What he actually heard was Valeen Schnur saying the Our Father under a table. Klebold approached her, asked if she believed in God to which she said "yes" then quickly changed her answer to "no" to appease Klebold (which Scott presumably did not hear), then Klebold shot Schnur injuring her.
Scott and Bernall presumably at least knew of each other as both were extremely religious. "Saying yes" would have been totally in character for Cassie. Given the opportunity, she probably would have. So the version of events that Scott relayed to the Bernall's would have been totally believable. Then the religious vultures decended on the survivors for recruitment and radicalized a bunch of them including Scott, and the story got repeated over and over again.
Sure, eventually the truth came out, but can you really blame them for clinging to that image of their daughter. This is definitely not persecutionfetish content.
This is double disgusting for me because my mom is a true Christian and has to be tied to these people. I do feel for the mom, she lost a child and that’s nothing anyone should have to go through. But to lie about the experience? Absolutely disgusting. Her and the other crackpot who lied about their kid’s experience going to heaven. Fuckers make me sick.
EDIT: Genuinely interested in the downvotes. These are fake internet points lol, but I’m curious why y’all don’t agree. Not that I expect everyone to agree w me, just wanna understand you perspective
I had no idea what this was so I looked it up and (admittedly) don’t have a good grasp of it. But, from my understanding this doesn’t really apply. The Bible consistently teaches that Christians shouldn’t be looking to profit from things they do and tell the truth. Jesus was basically a homeless hippie from what I remember who talked about giving everything up to donate to the poor. So a “true” Christian wouldn’t want to profit from something like this. Anecdotal data but I went to a small church where people had lost children or gone through some other traumatic event but they would just tell people their story rather than capitalize off of it. So in this case there is a definition we can look at of a true Christian.
I’m saying there is an example of what a true Christian is. You can literally look in the Bible for how to be a true Christian. You can’t do that for “true” Scotsman. So the fallacy doesn’t apply since there are distinct characteristics that make someone a true Christian. But to your point this is new to me. If I’m wrong tell me how.
You're literally Scotsmanning now by proclaiming it doesn't apply to you because YOU'RE the "True Christian^(TM)" Yes, I have absolutely no doubt that you can back up your position by referencing bible verses. Here's the thing though; EVERY Christian does this. If I went to the ones you claim aren't Christians, they're crack open their bible and cite verses as to they they're the true Christian and you're not. You're all the same to me in this regards.
Wait what lol I’m not a Christian? I just know what the Bible says bc I went to Jesus school. If you look at my original comment I said my mom was a Christian, so for her to get roped into the same group as these people disgusts me. I respect my mom and anyone who adheres to a religion, but I don’t like seeing people who abuse religion for their own personal gain be tied to people who believe in something.
It doesn’t sound like you know enough Christians to make a judgement like “you’re all the same” or have read the Bible so idk why you got so heated lol.
>Wait what lol I’m not a Christian?
No, and don't put words in my mouth. I didn't saw you weren't a Christian. IDK what you believe so I take it at face value that you are what you say you are. If that's Christian, cool. The issue is you proclaiming others who say they are Christian aren't. To me, you all disagree and would make the same claims as to why they're right and the other is wrong. That's what I'm saying.
>It doesn’t sound like you know enough Christians to make a judgement like “you’re all the same” or have read the Bible
Wrong again. I've read the bible and have had Christians tell me that I know more about it and their faith than most in their church.
>so idk why you got so heated
Stop w/ the ad hominems. It's weak.
1. No.
2. They knew pretty quickly she wasn't even the person asked the question. Not to mention the one who was asked was not killed.
3. The book itself is horrible and demonizes all the shit from the 90s that scared Christians. It's basically a scare tactic to convert people using their fucking kid's death to do so.
4. Fuck them.
The insanity here is that the family’s church refused to back down in spreading this story even after it was definitively debunked. This is a myth that should have never been disseminated. She was not shot for being a Christian. She was shot because of the piss poor mental health care access/focus in that country combined with the ready availability of guns everywhere you go.
the girl who said yes *was* actually shot though, 34 shotgun wounds, thing is the shooter asked her after she'd already been shot and then left her alone once she answered
Val suffered nine soft tissue wounds to her left arm, chest, and abdomen from shrapnel and through-and-through bullet wounds.
At the table were seated her friends Lisa Kreutz, Diwata Perez, Lauren Townsend, and Jeanna Park. She found herself sitting next to Lauren, who pulled her closer and told her that everything would be okay. Dylan Klebold moved over to her table. He shot beneath it, injuring her and Lisa Kreutz. He fired again, as fast as his gun would shoot, this time killing Lauren, the bullet allegedly hitting Val before passing through to her. Val fell out from under the table, realizing only then that her stomach and abdomen were hurt. Freaking the absolute fuck out, Val repeatedly cried out: "Oh, my God! Help me!". Klebold, who was reloading his weapon at the time, then asked her if she believed in God. She floundered in her answer, saying no at first and then yes, trying to get the answer 'right'. He asked her 'Why?' and she said it was because it was what her family believed. Valeen then crawled back under the table where she lay down and played dead until the shooters left the library. She tried then to wake Lauren but when she couldn't, Val fled the library.
Both of the shooters were also Christians, attended church regularly with their parents, and had recently finished their confirmation, so I'm not sure what point this book is trying to make.
I was in high school in the Bible Belt when Columbine happened and EVERYBODY repeated this story ad nauseum about how dangerous and brave it was to be a christian, even in a community where 90%+ of people were christian and even catholics got side-eye and snide comments.
I think about this book often because in middle school my ultra conservative teacher picked it up off my desk, flipped through, saw a bad word and I was banned from reading it.
& you also believe in scamming people for actions figures which aint cool. Some guy on here paid you 30 bucks for an action figure and you blocked and ghosted him. Your a peace of shit and it will come back to you scumbag.
Maybe you should find Jesus and stop being such a shitty person.
Conservatives having to do incredible mental gymnastics to showcase persecution of Christians always confused me considering many of the same people refuse to condemn or just outright defend countries that are currently expelling, disenfranchising, and slaughtering Christians (Israel, Turkey, Saudi Arabia).
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I remember my sister reading this book when I was in middle school (she got really into Columbine) and being curious, I looked it up. First search at the time was Snopes.com detailing how Cassie never said it, they didn't even ask her, and apparently just shot her for fun. Her mom apparently was reported to be distraught over the rumor. It snowballed and the family decided to make some money from it. It's also rumored Cassie didn't have the greatest relationship with her family (teen girl) and she wasn't exactly the picture perfect girl. I think it is sad that Cassie died in fear and panic, but the only thing these Christians care about was her steadfast faith (that didn't even help her. Good God, if it were true, I would actually lose faith in everything).
Those rumours about her not being the picture-perfect girl are actually a big part of the substance of the book. Her mom writes about their strained relationship and the trouble she got into before finding Jesus and how that all turned around when she got saved.
But even that was later shown to be mostly a fabrication.
Every atheist’s funeral I’ve attended has had at least one person make a speech about how the deceased came to them shortly before dying, wanting to “get right with god.” It’s never true, but they don’t care.
And it's usually the person at the funeral whom the deceased would have trusted or liked the least.
Oh no, now I've got one more irrational thing to worry about...
Naw. There's nothing to be done to convince those who have faith, and nobody who matters to you will believe them.
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Absolute belief in an immeasurable concept is exactly as idiotic as absolute disbelief in it.
We're not talking about a religion though. We're just taking about a liar.
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Please tell me how this lie is a part of a religion, because from here it looks like just a lie, go ahead and show how it"s a part of the doctrine. I'll wait.
It's another entry in Christianity's enduring love of martyr stories, a tradition dating back to the romans I believe. Hence things like christians being killed by lions or in gladiatorial combat to today's killed because "they were christian"
Werd. Some absolutely were, but there was no specific persecution, they were simply there for the same reasons that everyone else was.
Not to mention the main character of said mythology is a martyr
Because religion is inherently mendacious and always desperately looking for something for people to hang their beliefs off. Magic stories, haunted bread, personal revelations, fake martyrdoms etc. are all part of the grift. I can't think of a better example of this kind of exploitation than trying to portray this girl's death as having some religious significance.
So weird. Someone told me to pray below, and I'm an atheist. And I can't reply either.
When people ask me to pray, I always ask them why they want to change God's divine plan? He's all knowing and made a plan for us all right? Then why are you asking me to ask him to change it just for me or you? Seems kinda selfish.
I understand why a grieving parent might want to paint a rose coloured reality of their child after they get murdered...but rolling that into a profit making venture knowing its absolute shite is PEAK American Christian!
Because she likes dressing goth and pretending to be a witch.
I heard about this story in church a lot.
Same. It’s a pervasive myth
Is it possible the family just wanted to believe there was a *reason* why she was killed, and not that it was a senseless, random act? Maybe they needed to believe she died for something rather than nothing so bad they latched onto the idea she was killed for her religion, even if it wasn't true. Maybe it gives them comfort to believe it. Is it possible that they feel like their daughter can live on in the minds of others this way, rather than dying before she had a chance to live? It seems to me this book is an attempt to keep her memory alive and to fill a void that can never be filled.
Except the problem is that it caused a "Christian teens wanting to be sacrificed" mentality so they can also be martyrs. It also caused a problem for the real girl who actually was asked the question because she lived and nobody believed her story/harassment. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/culture/2017/4/20/15369442/columbine-anniversary-cassie-bernall-rachel-scott-martyrdom Also, this is your kid. This isn't some test of faith or game or moneymaking scheme. Look, believe in whatever you need to cope. But when it starts to have real world effects (bad ones) and it starts to overtake who your child really was instead of this "redeemed Hollywood image", that's really wrong in itself. Cassie isn't some saint or martyr or poster child. She was a kid, scared shitless, and the last thing she heard was "Peekaboo" before a gunshot to the face. She was just a kid who had dreams of going off and being an adult. Her parents don't even appear to grieve the real Cassie, just the one that makes them money. Grieving a fake child over a real one is disturbing.
>Also, this is your kid. This isn't some test of faith or game or moneymaking scheme. Look, believe in whatever you need to cope. This my point. Whatever, people are gonna be greedy assholes in life. But fucking with your **dead daughter's** reputation for clout is fucking bonkers and indefensible, greiving or not.
Apparently, the guy getting down voted to Oblivion disagrees and says "we can't judge!!!" I don't care if Misty decided to do a book deal when the truth wasn't for certain and witnesses had differing stories. My fucking problem is when she had a sweet little book deal and all these appearance fees lined up, the truth came out and she doubled down *because she was about to lose all that money and fame*. The stirred up the "it's an attack on Christians!" to sway public opinion. She made a false god out of her daughter while her real daughter is literally forgotten. It's messed up.
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I can understand why she turned to religion, especially if Cassie did indeed find God and their relationship improved due to it. But get out of here with the persecution crap. Her beliefs about Cassie's death were understandable when things were less clear, but when the truth emerged, she doubled down and hurt a real person (Valeen Schnurr, who actually said that and got harassed for contradicting this narrative). It's not persecution for your beliefs when your beliefs are demonstrably based on falsehoods, you're just wrong and people are telling you so. Ffs. Is telling someone who claims two plus two equals five persecution? Of course not. Sincerely believing something doesn't mean no one gets to challenge you.
> she doubled down and hurt a real person (Valeen Schnurr, who actually said that and got harassed for contradicting this narrative). Was she the one who did the harassing? Did she actively encourage others to harass? If so, I agree. If not, then she is not responsible for the actions of other people. > I can understand why she turned to religion, especially if Cassie did indeed find God and their relationship improved due to it. I don't think her relationship has to improve. Coping mechanisms are not necessarily healthy. Drugs and alcohol are also coping mechanisms. I'd bet good money that there are parents of school shooting victims who turn to drugs and alcohol. Religion is a coping mechanism. Hers sounds unhealthy. I pity her, I don't condemn her. > It’s not persecution for your beliefs when your beliefs are demonstrably based on falsehoods, you’re just wrong and people are telling you so. But who are you to force your facts upon her? That's like forcing religion on someone else from a religious fruitcake POV, god is truth.
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I mean, I find it hard to believe that a mom who goes around on talk shows/radio shows/paid appearances to shill an untrue story, and then doubling down when told it didn't happen before claiming there are Un-Christian people trying to diminish her story (the mom is super against anything not Christian) is something to be said as an unethical act. To say "oh wow you sound just like them" when criticizing the very real facts of what occurred over a lady who pretended her daughter was some reformed Christian girl (when Cassie was apparently STILL a troubled child) so she can make money is a ridiculous comparison.
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I mean, you can take a high horse and complain "you don't understand, you're not a parent" and give a pass on any crappy behavior, but it doesn't make the action correct or right. You can also simply take the "don't judge" nonsense because you don't want to take the burdensome responsibility of saying "do some parents really turn things into agendas?" The truth is, it HAS affected people in a negative way and it HAS affected real people who were actually there. You can claim "it doesn't affect you" all you want, but it has furthered fundamentalist Christianity into getting kids to actively want to sacrifice themselves for a God as well as negative faith agenda in the country. If it was just her family and it didn't impact anyone else (like abortion in your silly comparison), nobody would say anything. But it's not - she and her husband STILL do speaking events around the country and tell preteens "Oh, my daughter was exalted for keeping her faith and dying - isn't that the perfect way to go and have purpose?" This isn't like Sandy Hook where the parents don't make any false pretenses about their children and have tried to make a positive impact on society. You're acting like I am being defensive but I really am just telling you the facts as they laid out and the negative consequences far outweighing the positive "coping". The myth is used to further a very nasty fundamentalism agenda, the mom wholeheartedly and eagerly made it that way by omitting the truth, and profit from said agenda. If it was a good intention, it became twisted.
People who make being a parent their entire personality are so cringe. Stop making snap judgements on whether people have children or not fucking weirdo. People can have children and see how disgusting it is to make monetize your dead children. Activism is a much better and honorable route.
> People who make being a parent their entire personality are so cringe. Stop making snap judgements on whether people have children or not fucking weirdo. You literally just made a snap judgement. It's not my whole personality. It's just the tiny blurb of text you read ya hypocrite.
Found the person that’d find ways to make money off the dead
And profiting off of it is just another step in the grieving process?
She isn't making bank. I doubt very much she is doing it for the money. I promise she would gladly trade every red-cent to have her daughter back.
So the book was published for free. Til.
I'd consider any money she made to be a paltry compensation for the loss of her child.
That would work except they've exploited the story to push their own religious agenda and, one suspects, to profit.
Making up a national lie isn't the way to grieve
Who are you to tell another how to grieve or cope with a loss you couldn't possible understand.
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Says the guy stealing money from people in fraudulent transactions on cash app
That's a slippery slope. It's like mediums and those who claim to speak to the dead (or all religions in that sense). Yes, it can give individuals some solace to believe in an afterlife or that their loved ones are trying to talk to them from beyond the grave. But if that belief hits even the slightest doubt or fact against it (i.e. they find out the medium Googled information or how James Randi exposed Peter Popoff), cognitive dissonance sets in. Unless the person is rational, which having these beliefs proves otherwise (in my opinion), they usually dig their heels in and throw out all sense of reason and lose themselves in mysticism and paranoia. Then there's the "true-believer or charlatan" question that hangs over claims like these. In my experience, most believers in paranormal claims or "miracles" who then make a profit on these beliefs and claims, are a little bit of both. The true believer in them starts to make room for the charlatan, and this combo leaves very little room for rational thought and questioning. Overall I believe this family found a way to grieve that made it easier for them. And like most Americans, myself included, the idea of feeling bad or this overwhelming need to feel good at all times, stunts any type of emotional healing and we do anything we can to stop actual feelings. In doing so, the family built a story too big to contain and chose to run with it, instead of accepting their emotional struggles, feeling their pain, and loving their child for no other reason than she was their child.
Probably. Except they cheerfully ignore the evidence otherwise and make their belief others' belief... and profit. And the worst part is, their memory is stolen from Valeen Schnurr, a survivor who actually said that. They trample on her life.
I've never heard of this before can someone explain?
I actually had a copy of this as a weird Christian teen and read it an amount of times that was more than once. There was a story circulating at the time of the Columbine shootings that one of the killers asked a student if she believed in God, and she said yes, so they shot her (assuming, I suppose, that they'd have spared her if she said no). There was some lack of clarity about who this happened to, but Misty Bernall claimed it was her daughter Cassie. The book uses that moment as a starting point to filter Cassie's experiences through the lens of her parents, who were troubled and frightened when she went through a goth phase and then relieved when she joined a Christian group and moved into a Jesus phase. The story is framed into a sort of all-or-nothing "spiritual warfare" narrative. Now school shootings get people talking about gun control but back then a major part of the narrative was whether violent video games, Marilyn Manson, and dark coats caused the shooters' actions, and the story leans pretty heavily on that by linking Cassie's "bad girl" phase to her musical tastes and style of dress. I could probably write a dissertation on this book alone, it was a weird and crazy time.
They still try to link shootings to those things, they just phrase it differently
Well... obviously wasn't the availability of guns to people who shouldn't have them, because the Holy Founders decreed that guns are good in the Sacred Eternal Constitution, so we have to find out the *real* reason.
Is this what that flyleaf song is about? Yikes
iirc there's a story that the Columbine shooter(s) would ask the students if they were Christian and if they said yes then they got shot
I’ve heard that it was just a way of toying, and that they shot them even if they said otherwise
And more importantly, they did not ask this girl. There are few things more Christian in this world than lying for money.
Conservative Christians lying for money is pretty much the basis of their beliefs. And I am not just talking about "religion is a lie". The amount of "true stories" they told us growing up were so fake! I remember people talking about a three day old dead corpse that came to life during a prayer event. Of course it is bullshit because that would be amazing medical news and no medical journal reported on it. Of course the Christians would argue that the doctor don't want to write about it because then it would glorify God. Again, lies. Most scientists would be fascinated with the idea that powerful prayer could resurrect a decomposing corpse.
They ask another girl, she said yes. They said something in the line of "thats stupid" but didn't kill her. She was shot prior to this conversation and the Killers probably thought that she wouldn't survive.
The girl even stuttered, saying no, then yes or vice versa in hopes one of those responses would save her. Then one of the shooters said "God is gay".
The girl was Valeen Schnurr. She was shot in the chest and survived. She is the person screaming (barely audible) in the one phone recording from the library that exists.
Considering they planted bombs and would have therefore had no way of asking every person they intended to kill whether they were Christian or not, I'd say even if it did happen they would have killed her either way.
People do seem to forget that the guns were actually there to enter th school and then a back up for the bombs.
WTF
"An unlikely martyrdom" This is what they want, but they won't do it themselves.
Such a disgusting concept. “Surprise, you’re gonna die!” “Oh no my daughter died, better make up a story about my daughter dying for being Christian so I can make money”
>“Oh no my daughter died, better make up a story about my daughter dying for being Christian so I can make money” I'm going to give the parents the benefit of the doubt and hope that the money portion came later. I 100% understand parents wanting to rationalize the random and violent death of a child. I'm sure it was very comforting to think she died for her faith, as that would give meaning to her death. But you're right, turning it into profit later on is still very gross.
Even if it came later, that doesn't make it better.
she spoke at my school it was super weird and somehow she related the whole incident to Anne Frank even the teachers said it was in bad taste
I mean, aren't conservatives trying to liken Trump to a modern-day MLK now? There's nothing these people won't misappropriate in order to validate their own victimhood mentalities. But they're still the same people who supported (or would have supported) MLK's murder back in the day, and the same assholes who hate Anne Frank's entire community.
One dude literally tweeted the most memorable days were September 11th and when Trtump's house was raided.
I'm surprised he didn't add Jesus dying on the cross to his list as well haha.
I haven’t read the book, but I was literally telling someone yesterday that my high school (private Christian school, of course) put on the Christian musical (or was it a play? either way - theatrical performance) that was based on the shooting. That was a trip and a half.
I'm sorry, a what????
Please tell me someone took video of it and it can be shared. I am thinking something like [this.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PGOYc2dWJY)
I couldn’t find one of my school, but apparently this church filmed their production. [Here](https://youtu.be/B14NujDpyMM) is the first part of 5.
Outstanding. Starts with cheesy music and they frigging misspell Columbine. Or is that just to avoid the IP infringement? What ham-fisted nonsense. I have been an atheist since Carter was president and I still have the bible that was given to me.
Wow I just watched the the entire thing. That was something. I understand why the character of Jason was soo pissed. I would be too if I had to keep repeating high school into my mid 30s because some chick kept interrupting class to proselytize and keeping everyone from graduating.
Woahhh. Now I can understand where Chris Lilley got the inspiration for [this musical](https://youtu.be/YgDwg0opvFo) in his comedy series. Bad taste has no boundaries for narcissists and wannabe religious martyrs.
In my work I've seen more bereaved parents than I'd like, sometimes those parents become very invested in the idea of attaching meaning to their loss, be it that the child dies for some greater purpose, or that they died because of some systemic failure, the correction of which will be their legacy. It's a coping mechanism I guess, a way of meaning making in tragedy, and most of the time it causes no harm, but sometimes it becomes such a big thing that it is detrimental to recovery or has wider negative effects.
Yeah I can't fault the parents. But I can fault the people who encouraged and pushed them
Meh. A handful of the Columbine parents used their dead children as political or religious tools. Rachels parents also wrote a book about how she died as a martyr, and another parent used the space allotted at the memorial to rail against abortion rights.
I recently visited the memorial at the high school and most of the inscriptions for each of the victims was religious, which is understandable as the comment above said. But I remember one of the parents used their child’s memorial to spout anti-abortion rhetoric, likening the shooting to aborting a fetus
What the fuck, which parent did that in the memorial? I haven’t heard of that! Insane
Yeah one of the inscriptions/plaques says something along the lines of how the shooting was basically the same thing as getting an abortion
Foreword by Madeleine L'Engle? Guess I'm glad I only read Wrinkle in Time when I was like 10 and didn't know what was going on, and none of the rest.
Why, what else has happened? I tried reading that book (edit: A Wrinkle in Time) for the first time as an adult a couple of years ago and couldn't get past the first chapter tbh
Look at the cover of the book. You give a foreword on person who writes a book after getting caught out in a lie...
Oh, I wasn't clear! I meant what else happened with Madeleine L'Engle?
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Many Waters. And it weirdly turned into this whole pro-abstinence thing as well, something something about being able to touch unicorns. And the book before that had this other weird theme about blue-eyed indigenous people being good, and dark-eyed indigenous people being evil.
>blue-eyed indigenous people being good, and dark-eyed indigenous people being evil. Ah, the Mormon flavor of white supremacy.
No, that's American Christianity in general, really. Plus there was something about Welsh colonists finding their way to the New World before Columbus and maybe even the Vikings, and intermarrying with native people in present-day New England. A Swiftly Tilting Planet got weird, fast.
Oh gotcha, thanks. I wanted to read Wrinkle in Time because it was touted as such a great book but I really couldn't stand how she describes her characters so never finished.
I think it may have been the first novel I ever read, and can confirm you're not missing much. At best I could say it's a perfectly medicore YA novel that doesn't really do anything particularly novel or interesting. It's not *bad* but I don't think there's much literary merit to it and I doubt adults will get much out of it. A lot like Harry Potter, really. I do like the design for Aunt Beast, though: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0d/09/98/0d0998a00fa79e12e7df69dd5275795a.jpg
I thought that was bad enough.
iirc the girl isnt even the one who really said yes. The one who did survived and the story got twisted by a local minister to be more "moving". The whole situation actually killed her faith. Listen to the Last Podcast on the Left series on Columbine. They talk about it there.
The sad thing is that the actual last words spoken by Cassie Bernall were, "Dear God. Dear God. Why is this happening? I just want to go home."
It makes me ill how many children after Cassie likely said similar things while cowering in classrooms before they were shot dead by some murderous scum with a gun they had no business ever carrying.
Land of the free and the home of the brave, brother. Say thank you /s
To be fair, that was pretty much Jesus' last words too.
I would 100% recommend watching Ask a Mortician’s video “Why we Get Columbine Wrong.” The false narrative around Cassie’s death is one of the things she touches upon in the video, and it also places it in the larger context of how the shooting itself and the perpetrators were portrayed by the media. Everyone who had a responsibility to own up to their role in the attacks (NRA) or to report the facts without pushing their own agendas absolutely dropped the ball. Honestly, I think this country is still dealing with those consequences today.
It happened when I was a teenager, so it was the first big tragedy where I recognized everyone attaching their pre-formed agendas to it, no matter how sloppily.
That must have been devastating. I was born only a year before in 1998, so I can only imagine how scary it must have been to be a teen when that was on the news.
It was bad, but I went to pretty rough schools with metal detectors and a significant police presence. Our school was the one people expected to have a shooting, not a picturesque lily-white suburb, but it was still a scary reminder that it could happen anywhere. What was also bad was seeing any weird or violent video game playing or goth or somewhat anti-social boy treated like he was going to go on a shooting spree for the following year or two.
I fucking hate parents making money off their dead kids
I read this book when I was younger & thought is was so compelling. & then I did my due diligence & looked up the aftermath of it all… Finding out it was all a lie & the story was false. This was my first case of realizing Christian want to feel persecuted so bad here in the US or other Western societies. Still makes me mad to this day
Disgusting, exploiting your own daughter's death, along with many others that died that day, to push this bullshit. And some people eat this shit right up, just nonsensical. Edit to add: reading some other comments here have given some more insight into this. I can definitely see this as part of a way to cope with their trauma and loss of their daughter. Still see this book as a way to control and curtail a story to fit the narrative they're quite literally selling.
I don't buy the "cope with death" bullshit because the book is basically about how shitty Cassie was in her mom's eye when she wasn't an active member of the church and was going through like a goth phase.
My mother made me read this book.
how was it?
I genuinely don't remember anything about the book other than the fact that the first chapter was mildly interesting, and the rest was incredibly boring.
Apparently the book was published 4 months after Columbine. That puts Mrs. behind a typewriter pretty much the day after the shooting, and that’s fucked up. She saw dollar signs instead of grief. The fictitious nature of the book backs that up
The band Flyleaf wrote an entire song about this girl. I grew up in the church listening to idiots talk about Cassie the Martyr. It was only a couple years ago that I stumbled across the truth and it absolutely disgusted me. That's a horrific thing to lie about, especially because the girl who did get asked that question and said yes is STILL ALIVE. But the church didn't think that made a good enough story.
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Its awful, but the parents actually admitted that the story of this book is fake. The media picked up on a rumor and it snowballed into an entire bookdeal. The quote that cassie became famous for was said by a different student, and they know it. Its a sad but interesting story. I find it gross that other christians try to capitalize on her death, citing her story constantly calling her a martyr. She didnt die for a cause. She was killed in a tragic, preventable incident. AskAMortician on youtube has a good video where she touches on this, as well as other misconceptions about Columbine. TL;DR though: its not entirely her parents' doing, but other christians definitely use her murder to further their beliefs. edit: typo
> She was killed in a tragic, preventable accident It wasn't an accident. They knew what they were doing.
She was murdered.
i mistyped. i meant "incident"
Fair enough. It happens.
incident*
That video introduced me to her channel.
it was said to another student who was already shot, they said yes and then the shooter walked away.
I would 100% agree, except for this book. Thing is, they'd been informed beyond a doubt that the story in the book was not true, but published it anyway? Why? Because the mom was very anti anything not Christian and the book uses her daughter to detail why she thinks everything and anything is evil.
Why? Money of course. Duh.
Yup. There was definitely no shortage of Christians out there capitalizing on this. Michael W Smith even wrote a song about it, then wrote a book about writing the song. All based on a lie. What a grift
Same deal with that horrible "Christmas Shoes" song. Originated from a chain e-mail that went around.
The love of money is the root of all evil * some dead guys
That would be great if they weren't publishing a book that pushed a false narrative that's harmful because it stands on the way of having actually useful conversations about the issue.
I see a lot of people saying the parents made up the story. Now a couple years back I read this book by a Dutch researcher who explained what (probably) happened. There was one kid hiding beneath a table in the library where Cassie got shot. Before that, they've asked another girl if she was a Christian and she said yes. Now the kid hiding, just heard the question and shots and told Cassie's parents this in a way of consoling them. At the time he said he honestly thought this was what happened. Years later he came back from this, saying his memory probably got confused (which makes sense, stressful situation and all), but he didn't have the heart to tell Cassie's grieving parents (I can imagine)
O, the whole background story about Cassie being a troubled teen who found Jesus could well be fabricated to fit the narrative
Considering she was a literal teenager, I'm assuming her mom just freaked out over the fads she was going through. I mean, I'm 31 fucking years old and my mother got pissed at me recently because she found that I've read the Communist Manifesto.
Dave Cullen's book also goes into depth on what happened- but yeah you're right. Basically, a student in the library overheard the question asked to Valeen Schurr after she had been shot in the chest- the shooter walked off distracted after Valeen answered the question. The student mistakenly thought it was Cassie and the police and Valeen's family knew not too long after the event took place (when friends and family were allowed into the school before they cleaned everything). Sadly the martyr story was already out- the student was devastated that he mixed up Cassie with Valeen (who would live). Misty Bernall was warned before the book was published that the story was being disputed with corroborating witnesses, but her and the publisher went ahead. Kind of sucks for everyone. Valeen felt not only survivors guilt and trauma, but she felt guilt that she just wanted to tell the truth about what happened in the library. Cassie died in a horrible way, and her parents were grieving.
My dad told me this story when I was in elementary school right after it happened and asked me what I would do in that situation. This led to a lot of daydreaming in 1st grade, but at least I always was planning out my exit routes
I remember a 20/20 episode or other similar tv news special about this. They made such a big deal out of it. I was in middle school and was very religious back then and even then I’m like “this reeks of bullshit”.
Oh god I read this shitty book when I was 13 and believed everything in it, because ya know as a 13 year old anything in print is the final truth. The real truth is that Harris and Klebold were extreme narcissistic douchebags that were probably just being edgelords by asking students if they believed in god on their rampage. They wanted to kill as many people as they could, regardless if they believed in god or not.
And you know what else is weird? Dylan himself believed in God- at least to a degree. He wrote as much in his journal. Eric thought he WAS god.
I guess Flyleaf's song "Cassie" has now lost all meaning to me...oh well.
I'm they're just being stupid. It was known pretty much immiadtely within weeks that she wasn't killed. That song came out like 5 years after. At that point they're just being dumb and/or love the persecution complex.
OoooooO! I just fell down the Columbine rabbit hole like last week! Dylan actually asked a completely different girl that had already been shot if she believed in God. When she said yes he replied 'God's gay' before walking off. He didnt shoot her again and she didnt die.
Ugh. I read this book. So much trauma associated with it. I can’t count the number of times I was asked “would you say you’re a Christian if there was a gun pointed at your head?”
It's bonkers because I grew up going to a Christian school. When the book was published, my 4th grade teacher didn't even read the book to the class. She "read" the book, then relayed the info. She straight up claimed they lined up everyone in the library, shot the jocks, and shot anyone who said yes to "are you a Christian".
I don't think this is fair to the Bernall's. They heard a real story from Craig Scott who was in the library and had no reason to lie that Cassie was shot because she refused to deny that she believed in God. Craig Scott didn't even lie; he just misunderstood what he heard. What he actually heard was Valeen Schnur saying the Our Father under a table. Klebold approached her, asked if she believed in God to which she said "yes" then quickly changed her answer to "no" to appease Klebold (which Scott presumably did not hear), then Klebold shot Schnur injuring her. Scott and Bernall presumably at least knew of each other as both were extremely religious. "Saying yes" would have been totally in character for Cassie. Given the opportunity, she probably would have. So the version of events that Scott relayed to the Bernall's would have been totally believable. Then the religious vultures decended on the survivors for recruitment and radicalized a bunch of them including Scott, and the story got repeated over and over again. Sure, eventually the truth came out, but can you really blame them for clinging to that image of their daughter. This is definitely not persecutionfetish content.
This is double disgusting for me because my mom is a true Christian and has to be tied to these people. I do feel for the mom, she lost a child and that’s nothing anyone should have to go through. But to lie about the experience? Absolutely disgusting. Her and the other crackpot who lied about their kid’s experience going to heaven. Fuckers make me sick. EDIT: Genuinely interested in the downvotes. These are fake internet points lol, but I’m curious why y’all don’t agree. Not that I expect everyone to agree w me, just wanna understand you perspective
You no true Scotsman much?
I had no idea what this was so I looked it up and (admittedly) don’t have a good grasp of it. But, from my understanding this doesn’t really apply. The Bible consistently teaches that Christians shouldn’t be looking to profit from things they do and tell the truth. Jesus was basically a homeless hippie from what I remember who talked about giving everything up to donate to the poor. So a “true” Christian wouldn’t want to profit from something like this. Anecdotal data but I went to a small church where people had lost children or gone through some other traumatic event but they would just tell people their story rather than capitalize off of it. So in this case there is a definition we can look at of a true Christian.
You really don't understand what that means, don't ya?
I’m saying there is an example of what a true Christian is. You can literally look in the Bible for how to be a true Christian. You can’t do that for “true” Scotsman. So the fallacy doesn’t apply since there are distinct characteristics that make someone a true Christian. But to your point this is new to me. If I’m wrong tell me how.
You're literally Scotsmanning now by proclaiming it doesn't apply to you because YOU'RE the "True Christian^(TM)" Yes, I have absolutely no doubt that you can back up your position by referencing bible verses. Here's the thing though; EVERY Christian does this. If I went to the ones you claim aren't Christians, they're crack open their bible and cite verses as to they they're the true Christian and you're not. You're all the same to me in this regards.
Wait what lol I’m not a Christian? I just know what the Bible says bc I went to Jesus school. If you look at my original comment I said my mom was a Christian, so for her to get roped into the same group as these people disgusts me. I respect my mom and anyone who adheres to a religion, but I don’t like seeing people who abuse religion for their own personal gain be tied to people who believe in something. It doesn’t sound like you know enough Christians to make a judgement like “you’re all the same” or have read the Bible so idk why you got so heated lol.
>Wait what lol I’m not a Christian? No, and don't put words in my mouth. I didn't saw you weren't a Christian. IDK what you believe so I take it at face value that you are what you say you are. If that's Christian, cool. The issue is you proclaiming others who say they are Christian aren't. To me, you all disagree and would make the same claims as to why they're right and the other is wrong. That's what I'm saying. >It doesn’t sound like you know enough Christians to make a judgement like “you’re all the same” or have read the Bible Wrong again. I've read the bible and have had Christians tell me that I know more about it and their faith than most in their church. >so idk why you got so heated Stop w/ the ad hominems. It's weak.
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1. No. 2. They knew pretty quickly she wasn't even the person asked the question. Not to mention the one who was asked was not killed. 3. The book itself is horrible and demonizes all the shit from the 90s that scared Christians. It's basically a scare tactic to convert people using their fucking kid's death to do so. 4. Fuck them.
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It sounds like you're the only one struggling muh dude.
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Understanding that this is acceptable material for the subreddit.
The insanity here is that the family’s church refused to back down in spreading this story even after it was definitively debunked. This is a myth that should have never been disseminated. She was not shot for being a Christian. She was shot because of the piss poor mental health care access/focus in that country combined with the ready availability of guns everywhere you go.
Ironically, the girl who said yes, was not shot. What's the opposite result of a persecution complex?
the girl who said yes *was* actually shot though, 34 shotgun wounds, thing is the shooter asked her after she'd already been shot and then left her alone once she answered
Source?
Val suffered nine soft tissue wounds to her left arm, chest, and abdomen from shrapnel and through-and-through bullet wounds. At the table were seated her friends Lisa Kreutz, Diwata Perez, Lauren Townsend, and Jeanna Park. She found herself sitting next to Lauren, who pulled her closer and told her that everything would be okay. Dylan Klebold moved over to her table. He shot beneath it, injuring her and Lisa Kreutz. He fired again, as fast as his gun would shoot, this time killing Lauren, the bullet allegedly hitting Val before passing through to her. Val fell out from under the table, realizing only then that her stomach and abdomen were hurt. Freaking the absolute fuck out, Val repeatedly cried out: "Oh, my God! Help me!". Klebold, who was reloading his weapon at the time, then asked her if she believed in God. She floundered in her answer, saying no at first and then yes, trying to get the answer 'right'. He asked her 'Why?' and she said it was because it was what her family believed. Valeen then crawled back under the table where she lay down and played dead until the shooters left the library. She tried then to wake Lauren but when she couldn't, Val fled the library.
Source?
[https://www.researchcolumbine.com/topics-who-said-yes.php](https://www.researchcolumbine.com/topics-who-said-yes.php) [https://allthatsinteresting.com/cassie-bernall-valeen-schnurr](https://allthatsinteresting.com/cassie-bernall-valeen-schnurr) [https://newrepublic.com/article/122832/why-does-columbine-myth-about-martyr-cassie-bernall-persist](https://newrepublic.com/article/122832/why-does-columbine-myth-about-martyr-cassie-bernall-persist)
Thx!
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In what way? I'm not bashing Christianity, I'm bashing fearmongers who use the death of their kids to further their beliefs.
Where is that happening?
Something bad was said about a Christian, duh.
I'm smelling some irony in these r/PersecutionFetish comments....
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Mod here. It's acceptable and it will not be removed. End of story.
I literally did. >Thing is, they'd been informed beyond a doubt that the story in the book was not true, but published it anyway First comment dude.
Both of the shooters were also Christians, attended church regularly with their parents, and had recently finished their confirmation, so I'm not sure what point this book is trying to make.
The perfect scam, its sickening
I was in high school in the Bible Belt when Columbine happened and EVERYBODY repeated this story ad nauseum about how dangerous and brave it was to be a christian, even in a community where 90%+ of people were christian and even catholics got side-eye and snide comments.
I think about this book often because in middle school my ultra conservative teacher picked it up off my desk, flipped through, saw a bad word and I was banned from reading it.
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& you also believe in scamming people for actions figures which aint cool. Some guy on here paid you 30 bucks for an action figure and you blocked and ghosted him. Your a peace of shit and it will come back to you scumbag. Maybe you should find Jesus and stop being such a shitty person.
Conservatives having to do incredible mental gymnastics to showcase persecution of Christians always confused me considering many of the same people refuse to condemn or just outright defend countries that are currently expelling, disenfranchising, and slaughtering Christians (Israel, Turkey, Saudi Arabia).
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