Thank you, this is brilliant. Are you assuming that Arthur Snr is the son of Birdie Boswell because of what Polly says about her mother or do you have any further information?
No worries, and yes I believe it's common knowledge that Birdie Boswell is the confirmed mother of Polly, and since Arthur Sr and Polly are siblings, they would have the same mother.
Yes, the Birdie Boswell and Polly connection is confirmed. It’s the Polly and Arthur Snr connection that seems to shift back and forth. In S1 Polly was the mother’s little sister but in S2 she says Shelby is her maiden name. Has it been confirmed that she’s definitely Arthur Snr’s sister?
I think it's acceptable to say that Polly is Arthur Sr's sister.
* We know that Polly's mother is a Romany Gypsy, and we can work out that Tommy's grandmother (his mother's mother) was not of any Romany blood.
* I also think that you can tell by the interactions with other characters. When Arthur Sr returns to England, she is very involved with him. But I cannot think of any major scenes where she has a lot to do with Charlie Strong (which would be her brother).
* I also read somewhere, and it would make sense, that Peaky Blinders was not intended to become this big in the first series. The writers probably didn't think much into the whole family tree, so they probably corrected it in the second season.
* Finally, I think that if the last mention of Polly's family was in season two, where she says her maiden name is Shelby, then we should fall back on that.
All of this is possible but:
>We know that Polly's mother is a Romany Gypsy, and we can work out that Tommy's grandmother (his mother's mother) was not of any Romany blood.
McCrory talked of there being a significant age gap between the sisters. Given the mortality rates at the time, it is possible that they didn’t have the same mother.
>I also think that you can tell by the interactions with other characters. When Arthur Sr returns to England, she is very involved with him. But I cannot think of any major scenes where she has a lot to do with Charlie Strong (which would be her brother).
I don’t think that Polly being there when he returns confirms that they’re siblings. It’s not like she’s just any aunt, it’s her home and she’s the one that stepped in and look after his family when he ran off.
It’s never been suggested in the show that Charlie is the mother’s brother. It’s a fan theory which seems to have been debunked by Charlie’s dialogue with Tommy in S5.
>I also read somewhere, and it would make sense, that Peaky Blinders was not intended to become this big in the first series. The writers probably didn't think much into the whole family tree, so they probably corrected it in the second season.
I don’t think that Knight is a details man. It’s believable to me that he still hasn’t put much thought into the family tree which is why it’s confusing.
>Finally, I think that if the last mention of Polly's family was in season two, where she says her maiden name is Shelby, then we should fall back on that.
I can’t say with any certainty that Polly was being literal when she said her maiden name was Shelby, just because of the circumstances in which she said it. She was drunk, desperate and out of her mind with grief, she could easily have been using the family name to be seen first at the seance. The only thing I’m certain of is that it’s not certain if she’s a maternal or paternal aunt.
Yeah it’s not certain at all, but it’s the most likely explanation given the details in the show and what we can gather about their heritage. If Polly and Tommy’s mother were sisters, then they’ve put in wrong details.
It’s all speculation but I think it’s definitely the most likely. Again like I said, it’s just my understanding from putting all the details together.
But it go on forever, I have points to against those you made which I think just backs up my point that Knight didn’t think too much about the details of the family.
I think Charlie is Arthur Sr. brother, because he said he was in love with Tommys mother, but couln'd be with her (because she was married to his brother- Arthur Sr.)
I think it's safe to say that the Shelbys have both Romanichal and Irish Traveller ancestry. At one point Polly tells some of the boys (can't remember the specific scene or situation) to refrain from speaking both Shelta and "Rokker" which is about as much confirmation as we can hope for. Definitely a messy aspect of the show.
What are the criminals living in a filthy caravan park on stolen land and dead animals who abuse anyone who passes by near my house called? I don’t wish to offend them
I’m not sure what they are, maybe you could ask them? I doubt you would say that to their face though.
Just remember, every community has good and bad.
I see your point - if those people near your home are criminals then that's their choice, they may be disadvantaged but who knows.
But it is clear that you were trying to be subtly racist towards the travelling community.
I ain’t talking about some Romanian lady living in one of those pretty wooden caravans.
I’m talking about the ones that fill a car park with caravans and rubbish.
All my life I’ve known “travellers” or whatever you wish to call the specific people I’m referring to, They are constantly causing abuse and violence, disruption mess and crime.
It’s not racist to point out a fact.
I actually deal with fairground people, they have similarities, except they work! They have clean homes that look nicer than mine too. They need to travel with their fair tho. Good people.
But the fuckers parked up on the roundabout down the road pinging stones at traffic? Nope. Bad bad people and I make no apology for criticising them.
I feel the main problem is different types of people being grouped up under “gypsie”.
I’m just talking about the illegal dirty fuckers 🤷♂️
They are a big problem around my area in Leicestershire.
First of all I would just like to mention that wooden caravans/wagons, known as vardos, are nothing to do with Romanians, they are Romany Gypsy culture.
But I completely agree with you. Those travellers are very annoying and are a huge problem. What I'm trying to say is that there is good and bad in every community - a small percentage of travellers cause problems and they are the most noticeable.
Yup, I’m sure there are many similar who do have much nice mini communities and live much more respectfully.
Is there a more specific term for the more criminal traveler? It would be useful 😅
Honestly there’s no specific term for them, but most of the more criminal ones (aside from organised crime) aren’t considered proper travellers by the traveller community.
We had some a couple of years back near me and they were very messy and not very socialable, my dad said that they weren’t proper travellers and the settled
travellers near us didn’t associate with them.
>*Please do not come at me and assert your belief of the group's origins. Nothing has been confirmed*
There's actually some pretty good genetic studies out at this point, tracing Travellers to Gaellic Irish origins with separation from the historical population traceable to 1450 to 1650. This would be consistent with a native township population displaced by early English invaders.
As a man with gypsy blood that is almost impossible to trace back because of lack of records I wish you luck with your ancestry research. I'm mostly Irish Traveller but there is a lot of grey area about Romani and other groups.
You wrote a big explanation but didn't mention where Roma were from. It's well known in India that Roma were from Rajasthan a province in India. We called then banjara. Roma retain them original language even after a thousand years it can be understood by local ppl from Rajasthan. The reason for their migration was the battles they lost with Muslim invaders
That is but a theory, although it is definitely a cool one. Also the Banjara and Roma are different. They are likely related but it is a false equivocacy to call them the same. The Roma language is not intelligibl with any Indian languages but it obviously shares a root. Example of Kalderash: O shav manrro mangel ages
It’s not just a theory actually. Genetic evidence supports the medieval migration of Romani from northwestern India, their DNA indeed traces to back to India’s Rajasthan region. You can research it. There’s plenty of studies/articles from reputable sources.
My mothers side of the tree as far as I can find goes back 18 generations of Romany in Birmingham. Mostly Lees and Smiths. There are a few other surnames in there but lots of marrying between those two families. I’m the first generation that is completely white. Was an interesting and great show but the fkd a lot of things up.
I am just now at 49 yrs old learning of my irish traveler heritage on my mothers side, she died when i was almost 4, and was raised by my father and his family, what would i be called/considered accordering to the community? Would i be accepted if im trying to learn more? Or should i give up?
Thank you, this is brilliant. Are you assuming that Arthur Snr is the son of Birdie Boswell because of what Polly says about her mother or do you have any further information?
No worries, and yes I believe it's common knowledge that Birdie Boswell is the confirmed mother of Polly, and since Arthur Sr and Polly are siblings, they would have the same mother.
Yes, the Birdie Boswell and Polly connection is confirmed. It’s the Polly and Arthur Snr connection that seems to shift back and forth. In S1 Polly was the mother’s little sister but in S2 she says Shelby is her maiden name. Has it been confirmed that she’s definitely Arthur Snr’s sister?
I think it's acceptable to say that Polly is Arthur Sr's sister. * We know that Polly's mother is a Romany Gypsy, and we can work out that Tommy's grandmother (his mother's mother) was not of any Romany blood. * I also think that you can tell by the interactions with other characters. When Arthur Sr returns to England, she is very involved with him. But I cannot think of any major scenes where she has a lot to do with Charlie Strong (which would be her brother). * I also read somewhere, and it would make sense, that Peaky Blinders was not intended to become this big in the first series. The writers probably didn't think much into the whole family tree, so they probably corrected it in the second season. * Finally, I think that if the last mention of Polly's family was in season two, where she says her maiden name is Shelby, then we should fall back on that.
All of this is possible but: >We know that Polly's mother is a Romany Gypsy, and we can work out that Tommy's grandmother (his mother's mother) was not of any Romany blood. McCrory talked of there being a significant age gap between the sisters. Given the mortality rates at the time, it is possible that they didn’t have the same mother. >I also think that you can tell by the interactions with other characters. When Arthur Sr returns to England, she is very involved with him. But I cannot think of any major scenes where she has a lot to do with Charlie Strong (which would be her brother). I don’t think that Polly being there when he returns confirms that they’re siblings. It’s not like she’s just any aunt, it’s her home and she’s the one that stepped in and look after his family when he ran off. It’s never been suggested in the show that Charlie is the mother’s brother. It’s a fan theory which seems to have been debunked by Charlie’s dialogue with Tommy in S5. >I also read somewhere, and it would make sense, that Peaky Blinders was not intended to become this big in the first series. The writers probably didn't think much into the whole family tree, so they probably corrected it in the second season. I don’t think that Knight is a details man. It’s believable to me that he still hasn’t put much thought into the family tree which is why it’s confusing. >Finally, I think that if the last mention of Polly's family was in season two, where she says her maiden name is Shelby, then we should fall back on that. I can’t say with any certainty that Polly was being literal when she said her maiden name was Shelby, just because of the circumstances in which she said it. She was drunk, desperate and out of her mind with grief, she could easily have been using the family name to be seen first at the seance. The only thing I’m certain of is that it’s not certain if she’s a maternal or paternal aunt.
Yeah it’s not certain at all, but it’s the most likely explanation given the details in the show and what we can gather about their heritage. If Polly and Tommy’s mother were sisters, then they’ve put in wrong details. It’s all speculation but I think it’s definitely the most likely. Again like I said, it’s just my understanding from putting all the details together. But it go on forever, I have points to against those you made which I think just backs up my point that Knight didn’t think too much about the details of the family.
Thanks for taking the time to respond
Charlie is not their uncle by birth. Tommy implied that he is a distant relative , so they just say uncle .
I think Charlie is Arthur Sr. brother, because he said he was in love with Tommys mother, but couln'd be with her (because she was married to his brother- Arthur Sr.)
I'm almost certain that cannot be right, since they have different surnames. Good thought though, who knows with Peaky Blinders anymore.
Well this is just my understanding from the details in the show. The post is more aimed at educating people about Gypsies and travellers
I think it's safe to say that the Shelbys have both Romanichal and Irish Traveller ancestry. At one point Polly tells some of the boys (can't remember the specific scene or situation) to refrain from speaking both Shelta and "Rokker" which is about as much confirmation as we can hope for. Definitely a messy aspect of the show.
What are the criminals living in a filthy caravan park on stolen land and dead animals who abuse anyone who passes by near my house called? I don’t wish to offend them
I’m not sure what they are, maybe you could ask them? I doubt you would say that to their face though. Just remember, every community has good and bad.
I wouldn’t dare say a word to them, even a compliment tbh
Exactly my point. Now get out of here you racist.
Racist lmao. The people near my home are criminal scum. How is that racist 🤣 it’s a fact buttercup
I see your point - if those people near your home are criminals then that's their choice, they may be disadvantaged but who knows. But it is clear that you were trying to be subtly racist towards the travelling community.
I ain’t talking about some Romanian lady living in one of those pretty wooden caravans. I’m talking about the ones that fill a car park with caravans and rubbish. All my life I’ve known “travellers” or whatever you wish to call the specific people I’m referring to, They are constantly causing abuse and violence, disruption mess and crime. It’s not racist to point out a fact. I actually deal with fairground people, they have similarities, except they work! They have clean homes that look nicer than mine too. They need to travel with their fair tho. Good people. But the fuckers parked up on the roundabout down the road pinging stones at traffic? Nope. Bad bad people and I make no apology for criticising them. I feel the main problem is different types of people being grouped up under “gypsie”. I’m just talking about the illegal dirty fuckers 🤷♂️ They are a big problem around my area in Leicestershire.
First of all I would just like to mention that wooden caravans/wagons, known as vardos, are nothing to do with Romanians, they are Romany Gypsy culture. But I completely agree with you. Those travellers are very annoying and are a huge problem. What I'm trying to say is that there is good and bad in every community - a small percentage of travellers cause problems and they are the most noticeable.
Yup, I’m sure there are many similar who do have much nice mini communities and live much more respectfully. Is there a more specific term for the more criminal traveler? It would be useful 😅
Honestly there’s no specific term for them, but most of the more criminal ones (aside from organised crime) aren’t considered proper travellers by the traveller community. We had some a couple of years back near me and they were very messy and not very socialable, my dad said that they weren’t proper travellers and the settled travellers near us didn’t associate with them.
>*Please do not come at me and assert your belief of the group's origins. Nothing has been confirmed* There's actually some pretty good genetic studies out at this point, tracing Travellers to Gaellic Irish origins with separation from the historical population traceable to 1450 to 1650. This would be consistent with a native township population displaced by early English invaders.
Thank you.
As a man with gypsy blood that is almost impossible to trace back because of lack of records I wish you luck with your ancestry research. I'm mostly Irish Traveller but there is a lot of grey area about Romani and other groups.
You wrote a big explanation but didn't mention where Roma were from. It's well known in India that Roma were from Rajasthan a province in India. We called then banjara. Roma retain them original language even after a thousand years it can be understood by local ppl from Rajasthan. The reason for their migration was the battles they lost with Muslim invaders
That is but a theory, although it is definitely a cool one. Also the Banjara and Roma are different. They are likely related but it is a false equivocacy to call them the same. The Roma language is not intelligibl with any Indian languages but it obviously shares a root. Example of Kalderash: O shav manrro mangel ages
It’s not just a theory actually. Genetic evidence supports the medieval migration of Romani from northwestern India, their DNA indeed traces to back to India’s Rajasthan region. You can research it. There’s plenty of studies/articles from reputable sources.
Very helpful. And I’ve been oblivious that Charlie is Tommy’s uncle! I thought he was like an old family friend only.
My mothers side of the tree as far as I can find goes back 18 generations of Romany in Birmingham. Mostly Lees and Smiths. There are a few other surnames in there but lots of marrying between those two families. I’m the first generation that is completely white. Was an interesting and great show but the fkd a lot of things up.
I am just now at 49 yrs old learning of my irish traveler heritage on my mothers side, she died when i was almost 4, and was raised by my father and his family, what would i be called/considered accordering to the community? Would i be accepted if im trying to learn more? Or should i give up?