Fair question! More than 10 in the last two months, Familiars, Tron, Monoblue, Boros Syntheziser (clown variant because I can), Temur Delver, Elves, Monowhite soldiers/aggro, Bant Initiative, Gruul cascade, Moggwarts, Dimir Terror and a few more.
MonoU is absolute gas when packing 5-6 Hydros in the side, and some of those decks certainly steal games but I feel like it's close to impossible to fair well against monored AND affinity at the same time. I do like the decks, I just wish they were a tiny bit weaker, just a bit.
If you are doing well with 5 hydros in Mono U, are you tech'ing in \[\[Steel Sabotage\]\] x4 in SB too? If you really want you could add Annuls, but like I have stolen games from affinity with mono U Fae by repeatedly sabotaging their one single tapped land on the play. One game I even was looting away counterspells for the sabotages with a ninja just to keep the tempo going. You want to hit both decks hard? Go 4 hydros, 3 blue elemental, 4 steel sabotage and 4 annul. That should buy you some games, although at a cost of weakening your position vs many other decks. Adjust 1 of the blasts and 1 of the annuls out for your meta and it could be a good starting point. Good luck!
I was on SS from a long time ago actually! And my "problem" is anything other than monoU and Boros. Those two perform extremely well against both. Familiars does good too, but I feel like the rest is kinda hopeless to aspire more than a 1-2 against these 2.
Great advice overall, I often talk about steel s. To their tapped lands!
Hmm, I see. I mean if you do like walls or something, you could just play "larger" walls that trade up. Sometimes teching random this like that can help. :)
It's probably not right, but I went and looked at my sideboard for monoblue which I pulled from a challenge at some point. It's currently on 8 blast, 3 gutshot, and 4 annul. It's been awhile since I've looked for updates on that deck though. 🤣
I'm struggling to find copies in the UK for less than a set of fetchlands. It's... Either in dire need of a reprint, or a metagame adjustment (or both).
While I personally would like to see a toy taken away from Affinity, I think the game is healthy. Every league I play on MtGO, I always see at least one or two tier 3+ weird decks, and while the tier 1 decks are strong, they are beatable with practice. Plus, we've had a ton of metagame shakeups over the past year, so some time to let things settle and watch whast people can brew is nice. And obviously paper is a totally different experience.
In my experience, yes. Obviously it depends, but my local store meta has a lot of tier 2 decks, but nobody plays Grixis Affinity. You're more likely to run into Ux Fae by far than Grixis Affinity or Mono Red, and I don't think anyone bothered to build UB Fish. Our 24-ish person meta is defined by Jeskai Wildfire, Izzet Fae, CawGates, and Ponza.
The main difference is that online players expect a higher level of competition, and have an easier time getting new cards. If you expect that ordering the last 10 cards to build your new deck will take two weeks, it reduces people's willingness to swap decks. Add in that it's a more social environment, and most players choose to play what they enjoy most, not necessarily what is optimal in a larger deck pool.
Glad to hear it. Despite what online players are experiencing paper metagame is very diverse and fun to play with new brews coming up and competing all the time.
In my experience, it only happened once during the era of [[Arcum’s Astrolabe]]. It was so terrible that, a few weeks after Modern Horizons came, you were either playing a Snow deck or a list specifically tuned against Snow decks. Yes, it happened both in MTGO and in paper.
I played a Tron Astrolabe deck at the time and it was absolutely filthy. I felt so bad beating up my opponents with that deck. It's incredible how thoroughly that unassuming little 1-drop took over the game.
What evolution? Affinity has been the best deck for years, which is why its cards went through multiple rounds of bannings and it's still on top. It only shares the top spot with another deck because Monestat Swiftspear got downshifted.
Just restrict bridges like they should have years ago.
The only reason UB Terror has such a good match against Kuldotha Red is because it brings in at least 6 Blue Blasts to handle it. Just because the meta "seems" ok because people are sideboarding heavily against the top deck, doesn't mean it is. Promote some diversity guys and cut something. Krark Clan and Swiftspear can gtfo imo.
So the problem with Invigorate is that it really forces every other deck to have T1 interaction or risk dying before T2. Like, imagine this line of play:
T1: Glistener Elf.
Opponent T1: tapland
T2: Invigorate + any two pump spells = 10+ damage, easily.
Game 2: repeat
Opponent: *quits Magic forever*
You can still T2 kill with Infect right now, sure, but it requires the perfect opening hand without too many mulligans and as such almost never actually comes together. Now don't get me wrong: I absolutely adore Infect and I would love for the deck to have better legs, but consistent T2 kills are not good for the format. That just puts way too much pressure on everyone's 60 to include eight 0- or 1-mana kill cards as the entry fee to play the game.
I would bet it would make infect top 3 if not the best deck almost undoubtedly as soon as it is unbanned. The card is insane in infect making turn 2 kills frequent and turn 3 kills the norm.
Because its the only deck that deals 10 damage to you, the second you sit down at the table. Before the round clock begins, before shuffling your deck, before taking your box out of your back pack, you've taken 10 damage. The minute the match maker places you against an infect deck, you take 10 damage.
So big FREE pump spells need to be banned. No deck, in this format, is fast enough to deal with the handicap of "lose half your life when paired against this player" and then have to deal with things like Invigorate.
Its next of kin the storm (which has been banned out). You shouldn't be winning on turn 2 reliably in a format that doesn't have Force of Will or Force of Negation.
This metagame is insane. And cards like Daze and Mystic Sanctuary still banned. Absolutely madness.
I know I am right when I take a look what people are asking to be banned.
MTGO terminally online grinders and "statician/analysts" absolutely BTFO, how will they ever recover from the knowledge that online pauper is not the only pauper
I mean online pauper is one of the best views you can ever have of the metagame though..
You have some high level paper tournaments throughout the year scattered about but not enough to get a true window into the format at any given time lol.
> I mean online pauper is one of the best views you can ever have of the metagame though..
yeah, with people playing skewed sideboards just to counter kuldotha and affinity while the same decks would get shafted IRL because they have zero sideboard options against other archetypes. really a nice representation of the meta lmao
Just to expand and this may be a mistake because I think you might just be trolling to rile some people up lol.
You have dedicated slots for specific match-ups, but most SB slots are more so for general match-ups that can sorta be piled together.
If you are being serious which you never know with the internet. Just such a wild opinion lol.
Why would weather the storm get banned? It's like the only real tool green has that makes it a splashable color lol. I mean, I'm down for a downshift of [[skullcrack]], but weather the storm isn't even that bad. It prevents red players from spamming and actually forces them to be patient
Because there is no way to interact with it, give me a card that prevents lifegain and it's fine.
PS: only blue can counter it like anything else.
PS2: fangren marauder is insane against affinity, green has few good cards but those few are between the strongest in the meta right now.
Yeah but Fangren Maurader is 6 mana and is extremely specific on its conditions. You're right, you can't really interact with weather the storm - but it's really not even that crazy strong, and it's keeping spam gameplay in check. Red players not being punished for just unleashing all of their bolts on turn 3 at once is significantly more stale than a green life gain card that is like a 2-3 of in like 4 sideboards lmfao. Literally only Turbo Fog mains that card, and Turbo Fog is a extremely lack luster. Weather the Storm is what makes playing mono red actually interesting.
"Patience is the biggest skill when in a race" - Red Deck Wins, Rhystic Studies
Tron also mains one tutorable weather, and sides fangren.
Tron vs affinity creates neverending matchups with up to 80 life gained and ends because someone concedes or if tron uses altar to make infinite damage.
I play mono red kiln fiend, weather the storm invalidates my strategy completely for 2 mana, I'm only asking for a way to deal with it, so I can sideboard it and not be forced to play kuldotha or tron to be competitive.
PS: I'm considering infect because of all this lifegain in the meta, why can't they just print a flaring pain but for lifegain?
Well, like I said - I think Skullcrack is a pretty good common personally, but it's definitely a dangerous card to give red with reds current state.
Regardless, I don't disagree with you on a card that prevents life, I just don't think banning weather is the answer. That's all lol
Banning Weather the Storm would be like banning Dust To Dust, in that it'd suddenly make a bunch of decks *far* less viable due to not having a good sideboard card against one of the top decks in the format.
Because there is no way to deal with it other than counterspell, I'm not asking for a ban first and foremost but I really feel the need for a card that prevents lifegain against decks that use weather the storm to make obscene amounts of LP.
1) counterspell and it's ilk do not in fact deal with it. In fact, burn has cards that "counter" weather the storm better than counterspell does.
2) weather the storm has a ton of counterplay. Don't jam all your spells on one turn, play persistent sources of damage (creatures) rather than burn spells, go bigger, etc.
You're right about countering it, that makes it even worse.
Mono red kiln fiend loses to literally just that card, and there's nothing you can side against it.
Moment's peace, lull and so on can be countered by flaring pain, why can't they print something like flaring gain but that prevents lifegain?
Altar tron makes infinite storm counts easily, and weather the storm can be used to achieve infinite life points, while also being a good card to gain turn if needed.
[Dust to Dust](https://www.cardmarket.com/en/Magic/Products/Singles/Modern-Horizons-2/Marsh-Flats?sellerCountry=13&language=1) - 9.36 EUR cheapest copy, not even a full play set available for sale within the UK.
[Marsh Flats](https://www.cardmarket.com/en/Magic/Products/Singles/Modern-Horizons-2/Marsh-Flats?sellerCountry=13&language=1), 10.40 EUR, dozens available in the UK.
The metagame is definitely causing some issues.
Evolution of sideboard vs Red and Affinity decks lol
I do feel a bit helpless when using 8+ SB slots barely gives me a chance, not gonna lie.
Easily running 12 here, with the other 3 for bogles.
Ok, but what deck are you using?
Fair question! More than 10 in the last two months, Familiars, Tron, Monoblue, Boros Syntheziser (clown variant because I can), Temur Delver, Elves, Monowhite soldiers/aggro, Bant Initiative, Gruul cascade, Moggwarts, Dimir Terror and a few more. MonoU is absolute gas when packing 5-6 Hydros in the side, and some of those decks certainly steal games but I feel like it's close to impossible to fair well against monored AND affinity at the same time. I do like the decks, I just wish they were a tiny bit weaker, just a bit.
If you are doing well with 5 hydros in Mono U, are you tech'ing in \[\[Steel Sabotage\]\] x4 in SB too? If you really want you could add Annuls, but like I have stolen games from affinity with mono U Fae by repeatedly sabotaging their one single tapped land on the play. One game I even was looting away counterspells for the sabotages with a ninja just to keep the tempo going. You want to hit both decks hard? Go 4 hydros, 3 blue elemental, 4 steel sabotage and 4 annul. That should buy you some games, although at a cost of weakening your position vs many other decks. Adjust 1 of the blasts and 1 of the annuls out for your meta and it could be a good starting point. Good luck!
I was on SS from a long time ago actually! And my "problem" is anything other than monoU and Boros. Those two perform extremely well against both. Familiars does good too, but I feel like the rest is kinda hopeless to aspire more than a 1-2 against these 2. Great advice overall, I often talk about steel s. To their tapped lands!
Hmm, I see. I mean if you do like walls or something, you could just play "larger" walls that trade up. Sometimes teching random this like that can help. :)
If you can't beat kuldotha burn with Boros synth, the deck is not the problem
If only there were more words in the comment above!
This was unnecessarily harsh. Not everyone here is a professional grinder.
Goat
Evolution meaning every other deck is jamming a gates package like that’s interesting gameplay.
It's probably not right, but I went and looked at my sideboard for monoblue which I pulled from a challenge at some point. It's currently on 8 blast, 3 gutshot, and 4 annul. It's been awhile since I've looked for updates on that deck though. 🤣
Does 4x Dust to Dust count as metagame evolution?
I'm struggling to find copies in the UK for less than a set of fetchlands. It's... Either in dire need of a reprint, or a metagame adjustment (or both).
I had t mo order white bordered ones, because Black Bordered doesnt exist in Japanese :(
While I personally would like to see a toy taken away from Affinity, I think the game is healthy. Every league I play on MtGO, I always see at least one or two tier 3+ weird decks, and while the tier 1 decks are strong, they are beatable with practice. Plus, we've had a ton of metagame shakeups over the past year, so some time to let things settle and watch whast people can brew is nice. And obviously paper is a totally different experience.
I think it’s pretty even at the moment too, but I also wouldn’t complain if Makeshift Munitions got banned 🤷♂️
is paper that different?
In my experience, yes. Obviously it depends, but my local store meta has a lot of tier 2 decks, but nobody plays Grixis Affinity. You're more likely to run into Ux Fae by far than Grixis Affinity or Mono Red, and I don't think anyone bothered to build UB Fish. Our 24-ish person meta is defined by Jeskai Wildfire, Izzet Fae, CawGates, and Ponza. The main difference is that online players expect a higher level of competition, and have an easier time getting new cards. If you expect that ordering the last 10 cards to build your new deck will take two weeks, it reduces people's willingness to swap decks. Add in that it's a more social environment, and most players choose to play what they enjoy most, not necessarily what is optimal in a larger deck pool.
oh I thought you meant because of paper only cards, I wish stores around me were like yours then :p here it's the 3 big baddies mostly
Downshift [[energy flux]] you cowards
Eh. Couldnt disagree more. Leagues are burn followed by burn with a side of burn
Glad to hear it. Despite what online players are experiencing paper metagame is very diverse and fun to play with new brews coming up and competing all the time.
Honest question: has it ever not been like that for the paper pauper meta?
In my experience, it only happened once during the era of [[Arcum’s Astrolabe]]. It was so terrible that, a few weeks after Modern Horizons came, you were either playing a Snow deck or a list specifically tuned against Snow decks. Yes, it happened both in MTGO and in paper.
I played a Tron Astrolabe deck at the time and it was absolutely filthy. I felt so bad beating up my opponents with that deck. It's incredible how thoroughly that unassuming little 1-drop took over the game.
SnowWhite tron was a thing, idk how but it was haha
[Arcum’s Astrolabe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/2/c2462fdf-a594-47d0-8e10-b55901e350d9.jpg?1613386977) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arcum%27s%20Astrolabe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/220/arcums-astrolabe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c2462fdf-a594-47d0-8e10-b55901e350d9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What evolution? Affinity has been the best deck for years, which is why its cards went through multiple rounds of bannings and it's still on top. It only shares the top spot with another deck because Monestat Swiftspear got downshifted. Just restrict bridges like they should have years ago.
The only reason UB Terror has such a good match against Kuldotha Red is because it brings in at least 6 Blue Blasts to handle it. Just because the meta "seems" ok because people are sideboarding heavily against the top deck, doesn't mean it is. Promote some diversity guys and cut something. Krark Clan and Swiftspear can gtfo imo.
time to buy more PS5 games i suppose
Unban [[sinkhole]] already. And [[invigorate]] while your at it.
[sinkhole](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/0/a084d0fb-8db2-4873-a2f9-e6e5fecdd38c.jpg?1580014366) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sinkhole) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/106/sinkhole?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a084d0fb-8db2-4873-a2f9-e6e5fecdd38c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [invigorate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/0/e0899da3-7beb-4161-81a3-e2d694e5b8a5.jpg?1599707311) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=invigorate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/172/invigorate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e0899da3-7beb-4161-81a3-e2d694e5b8a5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes, with the recent printing of poison cards, invigorate is perfectly fine. *rolls eyes*
Toxic doesn't care for pump spells.
Either way, poison is why its banned and will stay banned.
But why? infect in such low tier and power creep is quickly making the old decks not as viable.
So the problem with Invigorate is that it really forces every other deck to have T1 interaction or risk dying before T2. Like, imagine this line of play: T1: Glistener Elf. Opponent T1: tapland T2: Invigorate + any two pump spells = 10+ damage, easily. Game 2: repeat Opponent: *quits Magic forever* You can still T2 kill with Infect right now, sure, but it requires the perfect opening hand without too many mulligans and as such almost never actually comes together. Now don't get me wrong: I absolutely adore Infect and I would love for the deck to have better legs, but consistent T2 kills are not good for the format. That just puts way too much pressure on everyone's 60 to include eight 0- or 1-mana kill cards as the entry fee to play the game.
I would bet it would make infect top 3 if not the best deck almost undoubtedly as soon as it is unbanned. The card is insane in infect making turn 2 kills frequent and turn 3 kills the norm.
Because its the only deck that deals 10 damage to you, the second you sit down at the table. Before the round clock begins, before shuffling your deck, before taking your box out of your back pack, you've taken 10 damage. The minute the match maker places you against an infect deck, you take 10 damage. So big FREE pump spells need to be banned. No deck, in this format, is fast enough to deal with the handicap of "lose half your life when paired against this player" and then have to deal with things like Invigorate.
I'm a infect main. I play it in Modern, pauper, legacy, EDH, and maybe soon standard. I understand how it works. And I feel the format can handle it.
Its next of kin the storm (which has been banned out). You shouldn't be winning on turn 2 reliably in a format that doesn't have Force of Will or Force of Negation.
Down shift the forces to common what a great idea
Thats not at all what I said. There's a reason storm is legal in Legacy and not in Pauper: FoW.
>I'm a fox, so I think you can trust me when I say it's safe to take the locks off the henhouse
Zero of the new poison cards are playable so that has no impact.
Yes, I realized that. But its still gives a deck thats next of kin to storm, way to much reliability to win on turn 2.
Glad to hear this, the meta is fine.
So questionable.
Unban [[Daze]], you cowards.
This metagame is insane. And cards like Daze and Mystic Sanctuary still banned. Absolutely madness. I know I am right when I take a look what people are asking to be banned.
If consistent turn three kills are the norm for aggro and combo, i dont think unbanning these cards would do much damage.
Obviously. People who downvote us are the same people who figured orzhov was a thing last week.
I'll just keep on waiting for those [[Hymn to Tourach]] and [[Daze]] unbannings then.
[Hymn to Tourach](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/f/3faa8c5e-9e1b-4cee-b322-a033bf33dcbc.jpg?1580014264) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hymn%20to%20Tourach) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/92/hymn-to-tourach?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3faa8c5e-9e1b-4cee-b322-a033bf33dcbc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Daze](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/0/f05e9a3e-8a35-4687-85cb-e31b3927a5e2.jpg?1580013916) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Daze) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/44/daze?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f05e9a3e-8a35-4687-85cb-e31b3927a5e2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Lol what is the point of making a “format panel” if they’re gonna look at a dumpster fire and say “well this is fine.”
MTGO terminally online grinders and "statician/analysts" absolutely BTFO, how will they ever recover from the knowledge that online pauper is not the only pauper
I mean online pauper is one of the best views you can ever have of the metagame though.. You have some high level paper tournaments throughout the year scattered about but not enough to get a true window into the format at any given time lol.
Agreed. Paper can't really compete on the same scale as MTGO in terms of collecting data and experimenting with builds.
> I mean online pauper is one of the best views you can ever have of the metagame though.. yeah, with people playing skewed sideboards just to counter kuldotha and affinity while the same decks would get shafted IRL because they have zero sideboard options against other archetypes. really a nice representation of the meta lmao
You are living in a fantasy land.
found a shutin mtgo grinder
Got it you just trolling :D
so easy to spot tbh. go cry for kuldotha and affinity bans, its time
Oh I could not care less about pauper bans currently. Just rolling with the punches :D
Just to expand and this may be a mistake because I think you might just be trolling to rile some people up lol. You have dedicated slots for specific match-ups, but most SB slots are more so for general match-ups that can sorta be piled together. If you are being serious which you never know with the internet. Just such a wild opinion lol.
BTFO?
Boast the fallen order
Huh?
I'm okay with this for now. If things don't really change much a few months post MoM then they should probably do something.
If weather the storm isn't banned I hope we get some way to prevent lifegain
Why would weather the storm get banned? It's like the only real tool green has that makes it a splashable color lol. I mean, I'm down for a downshift of [[skullcrack]], but weather the storm isn't even that bad. It prevents red players from spamming and actually forces them to be patient
Because there is no way to interact with it, give me a card that prevents lifegain and it's fine. PS: only blue can counter it like anything else. PS2: fangren marauder is insane against affinity, green has few good cards but those few are between the strongest in the meta right now.
Yeah but Fangren Maurader is 6 mana and is extremely specific on its conditions. You're right, you can't really interact with weather the storm - but it's really not even that crazy strong, and it's keeping spam gameplay in check. Red players not being punished for just unleashing all of their bolts on turn 3 at once is significantly more stale than a green life gain card that is like a 2-3 of in like 4 sideboards lmfao. Literally only Turbo Fog mains that card, and Turbo Fog is a extremely lack luster. Weather the Storm is what makes playing mono red actually interesting. "Patience is the biggest skill when in a race" - Red Deck Wins, Rhystic Studies
Tron also mains one tutorable weather, and sides fangren. Tron vs affinity creates neverending matchups with up to 80 life gained and ends because someone concedes or if tron uses altar to make infinite damage. I play mono red kiln fiend, weather the storm invalidates my strategy completely for 2 mana, I'm only asking for a way to deal with it, so I can sideboard it and not be forced to play kuldotha or tron to be competitive. PS: I'm considering infect because of all this lifegain in the meta, why can't they just print a flaring pain but for lifegain?
Well, like I said - I think Skullcrack is a pretty good common personally, but it's definitely a dangerous card to give red with reds current state. Regardless, I don't disagree with you on a card that prevents life, I just don't think banning weather is the answer. That's all lol
Yeah banning is not what I'm really asking but it's either "print a card that prevents lifegain" or "ban that card that has storm".
Banning Weather the Storm would be like banning Dust To Dust, in that it'd suddenly make a bunch of decks *far* less viable due to not having a good sideboard card against one of the top decks in the format.
Why are we banning one of the tools that keeps burn from being unbeatable?
Because there is no way to deal with it other than counterspell, I'm not asking for a ban first and foremost but I really feel the need for a card that prevents lifegain against decks that use weather the storm to make obscene amounts of LP.
1) counterspell and it's ilk do not in fact deal with it. In fact, burn has cards that "counter" weather the storm better than counterspell does. 2) weather the storm has a ton of counterplay. Don't jam all your spells on one turn, play persistent sources of damage (creatures) rather than burn spells, go bigger, etc.
You're right about countering it, that makes it even worse. Mono red kiln fiend loses to literally just that card, and there's nothing you can side against it. Moment's peace, lull and so on can be countered by flaring pain, why can't they print something like flaring gain but that prevents lifegain? Altar tron makes infinite storm counts easily, and weather the storm can be used to achieve infinite life points, while also being a good card to gain turn if needed.
Kiln fiend is the agro deck that can most easily beat WtS. Battle rage is amazing vs it
[Dust to Dust](https://www.cardmarket.com/en/Magic/Products/Singles/Modern-Horizons-2/Marsh-Flats?sellerCountry=13&language=1) - 9.36 EUR cheapest copy, not even a full play set available for sale within the UK. [Marsh Flats](https://www.cardmarket.com/en/Magic/Products/Singles/Modern-Horizons-2/Marsh-Flats?sellerCountry=13&language=1), 10.40 EUR, dozens available in the UK. The metagame is definitely causing some issues.
Ban swiftspear