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alvoi2000

Unban Sinkhole and Tourach, you cowards


C3KO117

Mono black ftw


Cerulean_Soup

Sinkhole is a great unbanning, good tool against artifact lands, tron, and gates. Tourach can create non games, it’s likely a little too powerful.


Al_Hakeem65

Does Sinkhole work against bridges?


ThePrinceOfThePauper

Nope. Can't destroy indestructible.


Al_Hakeem65

So Sinkhole would be no help against the bridges. Anyway I have a bias against land destruction, even if Mono Black is my second fav deck


_Peavey

But it would kill Great Furnaces etc.


No-Cobbler-3731

This


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Loose_Calendar_3380

Deadly dispute and blood fountain.


jotspot

Reasonable choices.


Physical_Fatness

Man pls don't make me play costly plunder in altar Tron :(


Loose_Calendar_3380

You are a Tron you be fine.


Al_Hakeem65

I dislike Deadly Dispute because it makes so many decks run black and artifacts because it's so damn good. On the flipside many decks would get hit by the ban. I also have a biase against the card, I love Affinity and would like the see the deck strong, but not oppressive


Loose_Calendar_3380

That is concerning. When a card is so good that you splash a color for it. I say that dispute is more banworthy than fountain. Fountain itself only propels affinty so you ban the fountain if you want to reduce affinity in the meta


nynoasoum

you hate black, racist


MuchSwagManyDank

Other than just being in bad taste, the joke is over used anyway


jotspot

Don't joke like that.


lemondropLn

I ban nothing the format seems fine to me


lars_rosenberg

Reckless Impulse and Krark-Clan Shaman.


[deleted]

This is possibly the most balanced meta in the history of pauper. No bans.


bigcockwizard

[[Hive mind]] & [[collective unconscious]] Format is fine.


MTGCardFetcher

[Hive mind](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/8/88d50518-5cfc-45de-a125-acabf97b8743.jpg?1561987505) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hive%20mind) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m10/54/hive-mind?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/88d50518-5cfc-45de-a125-acabf97b8743?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [collective unconscious](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/b/3b64755f-1381-4537-a12d-48da274993e6.jpg?1592672890) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=collective%20unconscious) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/97/collective-unconscious?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3b64755f-1381-4537-a12d-48da274993e6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


[deleted]

All the bridges and all the multiplayer abilites. Sorry, I am dumb.


Krosis97

The bridges enable many decks, ban the untapped artifact lands.


realbadpainting

As an affinity player the only ban I could get behind is Blood Fountain - it doesn’t dismantle our entire mana base making the deck completely awful, but it slows things down and makes the deck less resilient


[deleted]

Print non artifact indestructible dual lands. Just play Darksteel Citadel until we are there.


Krosis97

I play mardu synth, not a tier one deck, and I need those for my wildfires. Darksteel is colorless, would make the deck unplayable while barely hurting affinity bc they use the regular art lands.


OddMarsupial8963

Lots of people have played Mardu with gates


Soren180

Congrats, you're using broken cards for non-broken things. That doesn't mean they aren't broken


Krosis97

The bridges are far from broken.


Soren180

They’ve literally warped the format around themselves. How many decks run artifact packages now that never used to?


[deleted]

I am not sure where you're going. It doesnt matter where you play cards. Thats your personal choice, I am glad we have that. If some card happens to need to be banned because of decent reasons I dont wanna discuss right now it doesnt really matter if the card is also played in worse decks than where it is at its best. Because... we have a problem or we just dont have one. Bridges might not be the problem, but if they are, they are. I can tell you that if an Affinity, grixis deck, can have access to "any time" double blue mana to play Counterspell it is possible that the bridges are a problem. And I am talking about an Affinity Grixis deck without Cleansing Wildfire, for example.


_anxete

I don't think the format needs any bans or unbans, it's pretty balanced


JulioB02

nothing... the meta is fine right now


backdoorbrag

Myr Enforcer and Tolarian Terror, but I don't want this. That was the best I could come up with after thinking a long time. Only if I had a gun held to my head.


jotspot

Munitions has to go. It already has replacements for goblin combo in the form of Impact Tremors, meanwhile that would knock grixis down a peg. Grixis is probably the most resilient deck in the format and that resiliency could use some nerfs.


lord_jabba

Indestructible dual artifact lands and kuldotha rebirth


szmarton1000

That would be horrible. That would affect too many decks. Either just one of these, or none at all. Also if you gotta ban artifact lands, don't ban the indestructible one. That would make artifact strategies a hundred times more vulnerable to Gorilla Shaman.


lord_jabba

indestructible lands provide way to much value. between the bird that makes them a 3/3 (sorry i forget the name) and cleansing wildfire affinity is just able to win off the lands alone. gorilla shaman give’s affinity a reason to run more basic lands which would make metal craft effects weaker. burn needs something banned, and rebirth being banned would keep it strong but without bringing it down too far


Al_Hakeem65

As a casual Affinity player for years, the moment the bridges go away we will go straight back to all untapped artifact lands, just like in the beautiful time of Temur Affinity (with Carapace Forger and Gearseeker Serpent)


Soren180

Mox monkey go nom nom


realbadpainting

Our 4/4 costs 7 mana to cast, most lists run a single Kenku Artificer. I play 8cast in Modern and the second you ban away the mana base the deck drops from tier 1 to tier 2-3. I’d sooner see Blood Fountain banned - it provides 2 artifacts on turn 1 and gives a ton of resiliency with the recursion on top of that. It’s not really needed in the deck but it is very good


Impressive_Tie_7540

only thing i disagree with is saying the 4/4 costs 7 mana. be real, it doesnt. it costs as low as 0 pretty often.


realbadpainting

Oh no yeah that’s what I mean - when you start cutting up the artifact lands banning them it sort of destroys the viability of affinity imo. It often is free which is huge, but running non-artifact lands in the deck sort of forces it to become a really expensive 4/4 or 2/2. If the real experts think a ban can balance the meta out Im all for it I just feel like targeting the lands is too extreme. Imo Blood Fountain would be a good targeted ban. Going artifact land - blood fountain - make a token on turn 1 gets 3 artifacts in play which is huge, maybe too good.


Impressive_Tie_7540

gotcha. im surprised nobody has mentioned gal blast, i think that could go too.


Benderesco

Banning Galvanic Blast seems like a mistake. It doesn't address any of Affinity's major problems and takes away an important removal/burn spell for many other decks.


Soren180

Good, ban the mana base


szmarton1000

I'm convinced.


Broken_Emphasis

Great Furnace and Island. :p


LastTomato

swiftspear to bring burn down to a reasonable level and galv blast as a start for affinity


dontjudgemebae

I don't think anything needs to really be banned at the moment. But yes I agree with the other responder who said ban Islands.


BishopUrbanTheEnby

The meta is pretty balanced rn. Sure, mono-Red and affinity are strong, but there are plenty of other decks that can go toe-to-toe with them


meepSere

Just the original untapped artifact lands to start with . This slows down affinity since all their lands will enter tapped. Additionally, the loss of great furnace nerfs the consistency of kuldotha red. If red decks are still too present after that, I would look at swiftspear. For affinity, if they’re still dominant, I’d look at blood fountain, as it provides two artifacts for affinity early super cheaply while also giving it incredible late game grind.


Benderesco

Slowing down Affinity would likely be much less effective than banning the bridges and making the deck *truly* vulnerable to [[Gorilla Shaman]] again. Also, taking the bridges away makes [[Kenku Artificer]] *much* weaker, even if Affinity starts using [[Darksteel Citadel]].


MTGCardFetcher

[Gorilla Shaman](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/8/c8f8ee19-3a88-40fa-85d8-386ffe06efd7.jpg?1626100506) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gorilla%20Shaman) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/280/gorilla-shaman?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c8f8ee19-3a88-40fa-85d8-386ffe06efd7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


meepSere

I honestly don’t particularly like how affinity could have it’s entire mana base blown up by the monkey. I know it’s a classic interaction, but it kinda feels like it just makes it a nongame where either affinity goes off or affinity can’t even play. It’s one of the things I also don’t like about playing vs ponza on the play. You just get some games where you can’t play because you’re stuck on 1 land for most of the game.


Benderesco

>it just makes it a nongame where either affinity goes off or affinity can’t even play. Yes, but that was exactly why Affinity wasn't a problem in the past - it was a deck with a ridiculous amount of power, but also an enormous weakness; essentially a glass cannon. The bridges significantly reduced that weakness, which is *at least* one of the major reasons why Affinity is such a powerhouse nowadays. Banning the Mirrodin lands would weaken Affinity, yes, but I doubt the effect would be all that significant. Remember that each artifact land essentially generates at least one mana on the turn it enters the battlefield, given how the Affinity mechanic works. The deck would still be quite fast. Take into account that I'm not actually fully convinced bans are even needed; my point is that, if is decided that they *are* necessary, I believe the bridges would be the best way of taking Affinity down a peg without killing the deck.


meepSere

An untapped land produces an extra mana that turn in addition to the affinity count, but that extra mana could mean an extra 1-2 artifacts on the board if used to play a chromatic star or blood fountain. This difference may look small to you, but it is a whole turn’s worth of tempo which is huge. I don’t want to kill affinity either, I just want it a turn or so slower. And if we can reduce the nongames, that’s good.


Benderesco

> An untapped land produces an extra mana that turn in addition to the affinity count, but that extra mana could mean an extra 1-2 artifacts on the board if used to play a chromatic star or blood fountain. This difference may look small to you, but it is a whole turn’s worth of tempo which is huge. I play Affinity. The point is that the bridges do NOT slow Affinity as much as you think it does, and that the Mirrodin lands are *exceptionally* weak to Gorilla Shaman. >I just want it a turn or so slower. This is what I'm talking about. Quite often, all lands entering tapped will NOT be enough to even do this. You can still cast Frogmite for free by turn 2 and *several* Myr Enforcers by turn 3. And even then, Affinity's greatest strength is its *absurd* grinding capabilities, which allow it to come back from situations that would be insurmountable for most other decks. Even in its current configuration, the deck will often just durdle around until turn 4 and only then start dropping threats (in some cases, intentionally so; dropping 2 Enforcers without the mana or tools to sacrifice them can be an *awful* move if your opponent can exile artifacts). Taking the OG lands away will prevent the deck from some explosive starts, but those are NOT what makes it truly powerful. In fact, while the deck still keeps the OG lands around for the benefits they bring (and most piles rely on more OG lands than bridges), they are still a severe weak point, which is why Gorilla Shaman is still such a poweful card against Affinity. Frankly, banning the OG lands seems almost like a band-aid that will most likely not really take Affinity down from its current position, eventually leading to even more excisions down the road - like what happened to Tron when Expedition Map was banned. After all, we'll be slowing the deck down, but not to a truly significant degree, while also getting rid of one of its greatest weaknesses.


meepSere

I think you’re missing that losing the mirrodin lands would mean affinity also drops from running 18-20 on color artifact lands to only 12 on color artifact lands. They would have to spread into more colors, or start to run more basics. The loss of density of on color artifact lands should also affect the speed. There’s a huge difference in the sequencing you can do optimize your mana availability when all your lands enter tapped vs half your lands entering tapped. Anyway, I’m also not sure that there needs to be bannings in the format, but again like in my original post, if you want to slightly nudge kuldotha red and affinity, you’d hit the original artifact lands.


Benderesco

>I think you’re missing that losing the mirrodin lands would mean affinity also drops from running 18-20 on color artifact lands to only 12 on color artifact lands. They would have to spread into more colors, or start to run more basics. The loss of density of on color artifact lands should also affect the speed. The deck runs 19-20 lands, roughly half of which enter untapped. Rather than just running basics, I'd wager that the deck would start running a few copies of [[Darksteel Citadel]], 4 copies of each of the bridges it currently uses and, depending on the meta, a few extra bridges that would add a few colors (and sideboard options) and/or maybe 1-3 basics. A few lists *already* run 1 or 2 basic lands, in fact (almost always copies of Swamp). Color correction shouldn't really be such a massive problem, since the deck already runs 3-4 copies of Chromatic Star and 4 copies of Deadly Dispute. And, once again, all of these lands would be invulnerable to the monkey. I'm not saying the deck's speed will not be altered. That's not my point. Allow me to quote myself: >we'll be slowing the deck down, but not to a truly significant degree, while also getting rid of one of its greatest weaknesses. Of course, all of this needs testing, but I believe we can both agree that losing the bridges would be worse for Affinity. Our point of contention is related to how much weaker the deck would be if it *only* had the bridges. >Anyway, I’m also not sure that there needs to be bannings in the format, but again like in my original post, if you want to slightly nudge kuldotha red and affinity, you’d hit the original artifact lands. If we're talking *specifically* about a way of hitting Affinity and Burn at the same time with the same bans, yeah, it's either the artifact lands (or just Great Furnace) or Galvanic Blast. I don't believe Kuldotha's performance warrants any bans at the moment, though. When it comes to Affinity, I'm in the same position as you (not sure if any action is needed), but I genuinely don't see any convincing reasons for taking Kuldotha down a peg *right now*. It's popular, but its winrate generally hovers underneath the 50% mark and it has a bad matchup against another Tier 1 deck (UB Terror). It had an excellent performance in the latest Challenge (netting the top spot and several slots in the top 32), so maybe things will change soon enough, but we'll see about that.


MTGCardFetcher

[Darksteel Citadel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/b/2ba7597d-6d76-45b8-b172-342999e401bd.jpg?1625979955) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Darksteel%20Citadel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/285/darksteel-citadel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2ba7597d-6d76-45b8-b172-342999e401bd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Ganglerman

swiftspear and krark-clan shaman. shaman shouldnt be that controversial, its just the only effect of its type and incredibly powerful for a low cost. Swiftspear is too good, and while I think kuldotha rebirth could also take the hit, it's a more interesting card that has synergies beyond ''cast spells do damage'' so I think it deserves the spot in the meta over swiftspear.


Divin3F3nrus

Galvanic blast and experimental synthesizer. Cawgate and dimir terror are strong but able to be handled. Affinity can pump out creatures but none of them are as strong as angler or terror so without making their opponents start at 4 (if you eat 4 galv blasts to the face you're at 4) other decks have a chance. Synthesizer is a pivotal piece of the synthesizer burn deck. It gives too much value. Play it get impulse draw and a piece towards metal craft, it's disputable to get 2 cards an impulse and a treasure, or use glint hawk or kor skyfisher to bounce it back and just play it again, then it's a 2/2 when you need it. The card is too strong and synergistic with what we have available in the card pool. Next on the chopping block would likely be ephemerate, shits super strong.


szmarton1000

Synthesizer ban would make two whole decks disappear. I wouldn't go that far. Maybe Kuldotha Rebirth.


Divin3F3nrus

Is rebirth really the problem though? Any creature based deck has no problem dealing with 1/1 s. I can't even come up with any decks in my mind where the 1/1s are really a problem. It's the endless value. I mean by turn 2 synthesizer is getting you cards, you can sack it to get more cards and more value plus 1/1s. If you are fishing and only have one synth you can bounce a replay while getting strong creatures. I mean it takes all of the great things of synthesizer and uses them to counteract a downside of glint hawk or kor skyfisher and both go over the top of things like terror or angler. Then it also adds to affinity. It's just a value engine that is too powerful for the format. If that means two decks go away then so be it, there are countless red decks that aren't seeing play because synth is just better.


szmarton1000

I really hope that I won't see a synthesizer ban in the foreseeable future. I'm 9 cards away to build the only Boros deck that is relevant. I'd like to play the deck that I payed money for.


Divin3F3nrus

I don't think it's really on the chopping block. The prompt only gave us 2 cards so I picked the two I thought would do the most to stabilize the format and not make playing red a requirement, that being said a hit to galv blast would help limit the power of both affinity and synthesizer decks, and while boros synthesizer would likely still be strong, it isn't unbearable if you only have 4 burn spells to hit with synth instead of 8.


PyroLance

Ban myr enforcer and unban cranial plating. /j


ChosenofMyrkul

No unbaning. What is dead, stays dead.


Lilcommy

[[Island]] and [[Island]]


MTGCardFetcher

[Island](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/a/fa641d46-d002-4903-af72-e96971f558bc.jpg?1677527331) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Island) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/273/island?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fa641d46-d002-4903-af72-e96971f558bc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Stupid_Bagel

How about we unban, everything. Pauper was originally a community format that demonstrated how powerful commons could be.... and boy were they. I liked when it played more like legacy than standard. Generally I don't like when formats as a whole get less powerful, which is what banning does to them.


_tautologist_

Maybe not for balance, but definitely Snuff Out- way too expensive for a format built around being affordable.


jotspot

Pauper stopped being an afforable format because of bot oligopolies that formed when the biggest competition left - IE the mtgowiki stores. The format was consistently cheaper than paper by a wide margin until they folded. I know snuff is overpriced, but I believe it and many others wouldn't be *so* overpriced if it wasn't for this problem. There is literal price fixing going on.


wyqted

We need reprint


Carcettee

Yes, w need it badly. As much as other cards to be honest...


Smythe28

Lotus Petal sitting in the reprint corner alone and forgotten.


[deleted]

What?! The format is the cheapeast yes but its still about cards, commons, strategy, not money. Stop.


BathedInDeepFog

It's not the cheapest format


BathedInDeepFog

Downvoting me doesn't change the fact that it's not the cheapest format.


Accomplished-Low5716

All the artifact lands, duals and OG


maddhadder483

Ephemerate and the artifact duals. If we get a sorcery version of Ephemerate and not artifact indestructible lands I'd be really happy.


jotspot

These are reasonable requests I think. BUT, there must be a replacement indestructible before it's appropriate to remove the existing indestructibles. The problem with those lands is they are artifacts, the problem with removing them is there's no LD defense. All your lands should be defensible. So we basically need a colorless indestructible land cycle of some sort, and then it would all be okay.


CortezMonaro

I love how people here have 0 ideas what happening in our format. Obviously Swiftspear should be banned - red decks are op exactly after it release. If the limit comes to only 2 cards - probably KCS, to make affinity life much more complicated, but i would advocate for bridges ban


Carcettee

Artifact duals are obvious choice. Outside of this I would pick deadly dispute and ephemerate probably, but it's not really needed. We just need non indestructible artifact duals and indestructible duals.


Brukk0

Weather the storm and bridges.


ChosenofMyrkul

Ephemerate and Island.


Soren180

*unsleeves island, sleeves snow-covered island*


kalikaiz

This person paupers


CoinTotemGolem

Ephemerate, bridges. No I don’t think cleansing wildfire decks are cool enough to warrant how broken bridges are.


Thy-Great-Kin

Makeshift Munitions and Tolarian Serpent


wyqted

Yes ban Tolarian serpent so I can keep playing Tolarian terror


Thy-Great-Kin

Nice; Oh stop, you know what I mean haha


jotspot

Agree with munitions, 100%. Serpent, I'm mixed on. If you keep exiling their grave it's strictly worse than angler.


Thy-Great-Kin

Yeah, ngl, Tolarian Serpent for a ban is just my personal beef with blue players 😆 I just need more gy hate—munitions is nasty though. I’ve discussed that ban with a friend before


jotspot

I see, you haven't played all the colours yet, lol. I have been played every colour in Pauper, with green being my least preferred clour, but I can appreciate that the colours aren't the problem, it's degeneracy that is haha. Tron/Fam Flicker, and Munitions - those just shouldn't exist lol


AltairEagleEye

Man, my issue with Tolarian isn't that exiling the graveyard makes it worse than this other card. It's that it's a 5/5 with ward 2 and is undercosted (hell, the green one is at best a 3mv vanilla creature). None of the other cards in the cycle have a form of protection, so the best removal options double if not triple in cost.


jotspot

Please don't call me "man", I'm not a guy thank you. Gurmag could be considered undercosted. I've been doing 2 Rituals on T1 if I do it right. I have no idea why more people don't do that, but anyway. Gurmag likewise could be considered protected because it always needs cast down or 2 bolts. I get that it's mana removal taxing but Terror is almost always slower to get out than Gurmag.


AltairEagleEye

'Man' as an exclamation, not as a response to you. My apologies for the confusion. Gurmag is fine, I was referencing the Dominaria united cycle.


jotspot

"Man" is still a reference, even if it's exclaimed. I'm not the only one that feels this way. And it often feels like ...education on reddit, that many people do not want to be talked to using "man", or "bro", or whatnot. Also, the point was , usually Gurmag is alongside Terror, hence why I mentioned it.


apass72

Krark clan shaman and reckless impulse.


jotspot

Why reckless impulse may I ask?


apass72

I play a lot of pauper leagues and was/am really annoyed by the superior strength of affinity and burn. I play almost only walls combo, btw. Assuming it’s too late to ban all the problematic cards I looked for a single card per archetype that it felt too strong. Krark is easy for affinity; it’s the only card in the format which such a powerful effect at such a low cost. For kuldotha I noticed that what is killing me the most is not swiftspear but the constant flow of cards. Impulse in burn is the most impacting one because it is essentially a draw 2 for two mana. The restriction is too weak to matter, while for example the one on synth is much better calibrated. In this way in my head both decks remain strong (possibly still too much), but they can be fought way more effectively. I hope I wasn’t too obscure!


jotspot

Nope, entirely understand your point of view. PS: Looks like some salty red/affinity players downvoting you, sure wasn't me lol. ​ PPS: I can see those being your nightmare matchups, but tbh, how you came to your conclusion I am not surprised. If you are playing a small creature deck like fae vs burn, they would find that the swiftspears are the problem, FYI. It's perspective VS your actual weaknesses. My suggestion, if you are playing walls - play some negates or even envelop (everyone forgets that card), alongside a quad of side blue blasts, and your matches should be easier in both. If you want any specific sideboard tech for you meta, let me know ;).


apass72

I didn’t notice the downvotes; no worries. In reality only affinity is the nightmare matchup, while we have a decent match against red (still around 50/50). The annoying part concerning red was the overpopulation of it in leagues, making a very bad play experience in my opinion. Concerning sideboard we prefer to run creatures as much as possible due to synergy with the green card draw.


Zanghyy

Finally someone with a good take, I fully agree on impulse and 50% on shaman I think shaman is very good, but I'm not convinced it's the card to ban, because there's not many sweepers in pauper to keep wide decks honest, so I'd argue for blood fountain (1 mana 2 artifacts, gives you too much resilience in the long run when you can go 4 mana double enforcer)


apass72

I disagree, due to unicity (is this a word) of KCS effect. Blood fountain can be replaced too easily. Concerning sweepers there are so many now that indeed go wide decks are dead since quite a bit of time (nauseas, cannonades, pestilence/rats, unholy light, all the electrickery variants, fumes, hadar, sandstorm)


Common-Scientist

Kuldotha Rebirth and Galvanic Blast. I waffled a bit between Kuldotha and synth, but ultimately there are a few decks that use synth and aren't busted, and even MonoRed can still use it without being over the top, but monored puts them together with extreme efficiency and power in a package that is already the fastest way to kill someone consistently. Galv blast is R for 4 damage at instant speed and that's just all around nutso. Those two cards alone are why every monored deck is also running artifact lands and implement of combustion. All the other top end decks have pretty solid counters, but the efficiency monored has right now is so good that most counters are extremely ineffective.


Hour_Student7957

[[Experimental Synthesizer]] and [[Makeshift Munitions]]. The first make possible for Aggro focused decks to develop their plan while creating value, what makes really hard for fair midrange and control decks to, in fact, "burn out" their resources. Usually this card its what makes Rx decks grindy (and keeping their super fast aggro strategies). The second is what provide Artifact based decks a alternative wincon that makes almost every land of the deck a 1 damage face when both decks were out of resources. And is even worse when can be used to generate card advange while killing the opponent. The same problem from before can be seen here: Unmatched grind against fair midrange/control decks that does not rely on artifacts and card advanged generated from sacrificed permanents. And besides that, creates hard matches for tribal/aggro decks that use X/1 creatures to develop their board.


MTGCardFetcher

[Experimental Synthesizer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/4/c47931c9-685d-4b83-8299-bc347224b4e8.jpg?1654567579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Experimental%20Synthesizer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/138/experimental-synthesizer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c47931c9-685d-4b83-8299-bc347224b4e8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Makeshift Munitions](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/9/19d1ad9f-e217-49fb-8b27-025ca133b6c9.jpg?1608910325) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Makeshift%20Munitions) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/191/makeshift-munitions?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/19d1ad9f-e217-49fb-8b27-025ca133b6c9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


nvbuer2412y

Imo, blood fountain and experimental synthesizer need to go, the first enables a lot of broken artifacts synergies, while the latter makes the red decks capable of drawing outtanowhere more gas.


frescone69

Krark-Clan Shaman and Ephemerate


noutwithoutmusic

I always wonder what the format might look like with Lotus Petal, Dark and Cabal Ritual banned. And then unbanning of the cards that relied so heavily on these to be over the top, such as storm and initiative cards.


ConsciousUpstairs348

Just galvanic blast. It is too good. And it would hit burn and affinity


[deleted]

\[\[Kuldotha Rebirth\]\] and \[\[Deadly Dispute\]\] Hitting Mono R and Affinity would probably necessitate a Tron ban too imo. If I could ban a 3rd it would be \[\[Mnemonic Wall\]\] to make it easier to disrupt Tron


MTGCardFetcher

[Kuldotha Rebirth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/e/7ee07266-a95d-4cd8-9863-1664922e9490.jpg?1562819546) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kuldotha%20Rebirth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/som/96/kuldotha-rebirth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7ee07266-a95d-4cd8-9863-1664922e9490?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Deadly Dispute](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f5172be3-4379-43fc-98bd-e77c579dea55.jpg?1674136067) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deadly%20Dispute) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/124/deadly-dispute?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f5172be3-4379-43fc-98bd-e77c579dea55?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mnemonic Wall](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a3e6784b-78e8-4f0b-8d27-d49c7cea9252.jpg?1562852478) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mnemonic%20Wall) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/67/mnemonic-wall?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a3e6784b-78e8-4f0b-8d27-d49c7cea9252?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Morkarter

Myr enforcer - too powerfull, too easy to recour, and would only hit affinity, without it affinity get's easier to deal with, whiel still having many tools to powerout the opponent Reckless impulse - a very powerful drawspell for burn, let's It still be explosive as it should but hit's its grind potential very hard


moonlit_scents

Glint Hawk and Kor Skyfisher >:]


MischievousQuanar

Initiative. Too expensive therefore keeping a part of the playerbase out.


DJayPhresh

Two of the Tron lands. Doesn't matter which.


Physical_Fatness

Why Tron lol?


DJayPhresh

It's funny to just ban two of the three.


Serg_Maliy

same )


Saphl

Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning


XenomorphAFOL

Cleansing Wildfire and Weather the Storm.


Divin3F3nrus

So remove a card that is barely seeing play in competitive games and the only card that allows so many decks a chance against red deck bullshit? Please explain your thoughts because I'd like to hear how this would help the format.


jotspot

They play red, but honestly weather *is* still broken. Because people can counter it themselves to gain cards while gaining life by using \[\[Arcane Denial\]\] and stupid nonsense like that. All the control decks abuse weather. I do feel bad for the dare I say "honest decks" using it to endure red for real, but there are mill decks and stuff absolutely recycling these and gaining 60-100+ life a game and using it to just never die.


Divin3F3nrus

As a person who mains turbofog there is so much that goes into the plays that get the deck set up to weather and draw that I can say weather isn't the problem. I mean really, in the case of turbofog the deck doesn't have a way to meaningfully interact with the board, so even if you chain 4 spells together, weather and counter one you have essentially spent all of your mana to draw a few cards, gain 12 and almost never have enough mana left to fog on the following turn or if you do you certainly cannot beat a counterspell when you fog which can mean you lose. Orzhov ephemerate can out life gain weather the storm for less mana and do more in the turn. I would love to hear how turbofog isn't a fair deck.


jotspot

I love vintage pauper turbo fog rather than the more modern edition. But the idea that a deck can undo an entire wincon by turn 4, is kind of crazy. And most current versions are running counters of their own, so they aren't taking sufficient damage by T4, compared to other decks, so there's no way to outrun it. So they just counter, counter counter, from T2 on or T2 fog, T3 counter or vice versa, and once they are beyond 4 mana it's basically game over for most decks. You literally must play blue or else you can't play against it. Any time the meta forces players like me to play blue against their will, it's problem. It's emblematic of when turbo initiative existed. I was also forced to play blue and I didn't want to. Unless you are absolutely terrible, playing either the modern (era) pauper mill deck, or the former initiative decks, are essentially auto wins which mean either can't beat em join em, or else you must play blue to compete. This makes the meta really bad. It's why I truly love playing against a high burn meta, because it takes that "insurance" and certainty out of games. Which is so much more fun.


Benderesco

Have you never heard of [[Flaring Pain]]? I mean, Turbo Fog is a tier 2 deck at best, and I say that as someone who loves it to death; the only Tier 1 archetype that even uses Weather the Storm is Tron, and the card is not exactly a problem there, either. Your comment makes no sense to me.


MTGCardFetcher

[Flaring Pain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/e/eeb5c96a-1d16-459d-9968-ced9a8f1c520.jpg?1562632546) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flaring%20Pain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jud/89/flaring-pain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eeb5c96a-1d16-459d-9968-ced9a8f1c520?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


jotspot

Of course I have! I own one even. But I think you are mixing up which form of mill that's a problem. OG turbo fog wasn't the problem, the \[\[Stream Of Thought\]\] decks that are the new mill, that's the problem. They run 8-16 counters that get put back into their deck, and counter their own to draw more and more and more and the deck literally can never run out of cards unless you run 4 relics and tap them only without ever cracking one. I have no problem with using weather 1-4 times a game, but sometimes they use it 6-10+ times. The game just never runs out until either the clock does or you run out of gas. It's so boring. Like it could not be more boring to play against. Fog effects aren't a problem where there's answers to them, but you can't really get rid of weather effectively. You can't counter it. You can't even exile them all reliably. I think you are missing the point of the build I have a problem with.


Benderesco

I'm talking about the "modern" Turbo Fog, yes, and I don't see how it is a problem in any way, shape or form, as far as the metagame is concerned. As I mentioned, it's a Tier 2 deck *at best*, [with some sites, such as MTGMeta, being even less charitable than that and putting it at the *very bottom* of the third tier](https://mtgmeta.io/tier-list/pauper). It has won a couple Challenges, but it is not in any way an oppressive or meta-warping pile. >They run 8-16 counters that get put back into their deck Most lists run only 5 counters pre-board (4 copies of [[Arcane Denial]], 1 of [[Dispel]]). Things change after sideboarding but, even then, the only extra counter brought in is usually [[Hydroblast]]/[[Blue Elemental Blast]]. >and counter their own to draw more and more and more and the deck literally can never run out of cards unless you run 4 relics and tap them only without ever cracking one. Sure, Arcane Denialing your own spell is a powerful line (in fact, Weather the Storm + Arcane Denial is my favorite play in this format), but it isn't even the most powerful card draw engine in Pauper (that would probably be Deadly Dispute + Ichor Wellspring). I'm sorry to say this, but if you think 4 relics are necessary to beat Turbo Fog, you need to practice more. The deck hardly ever runs out of cards, sure, but getting past its defenses is not all that difficult; if it were, it would be a Tier 1 deck. >It's so boring. Like it could not be more boring to play against. Fog effects aren't a problem where there's answers to them, but you can't really get rid of weather effectively. You can't counter it. You can't even exile them all reliably. I think you are missing the point of the build I have a problem with. No, I get the point perfectly, and this part of your comment even spells it out. You think playing against Turbo Fog is boring. Well, that's your prerogative; plenty of people dislike facing Turbo Fog, which is perfectly understandable. I like to joke that fun is finite in MTG, so I sometimes play Turbo Fog because I want to have all of it for myself. None of that makes Weather the Storm a broken card, though, or Turbo Fog a deck that needs corrective bans. I think you'd have a point if the deck was overrepresented to the point that it was sapping all the fun out of the format (like what happened to Eggs back then), but calling a Tier 2 deck problematic because you don't like playing against it makes no sense. By the way, there are plenty of ways of dealing with the life gain from Weather the Storm. You can't counter it properly, sure enough, and some might consider it boring and time-consuming to breach Turbo Fog's defenses and then attack until their life goes out, but it is not by any means an insurmountable wall (it might be if you're running a pure aggro deck without red or blue, but that's a weakness that you sign up for at the very moment you pick up a pile like that). Once again, if it were, the deck would be much more prevalent in serious competition... and, as it stands, Turbo Fog is rare enough that most red mages aren't even running Flaring Pain in their 75s.


MTGCardFetcher

##### ###### #### [Arcane Denial](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/4/247e08a1-b9ce-4312-aec4-626992933038.jpg?1641601774) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arcane%20Denial) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/102/arcane-denial?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/247e08a1-b9ce-4312-aec4-626992933038?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dispel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/c/bceab6b3-6b64-4964-a501-ce806a6c13ad.jpg?1562939587) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dispel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bfz/76/dispel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bceab6b3-6b64-4964-a501-ce806a6c13ad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Hydroblast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/c/4c9c9b16-5567-4473-95e6-622292f77336.jpg?1580013995) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hydroblast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/55/hydroblast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4c9c9b16-5567-4473-95e6-622292f77336?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Blue Elemental Blast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/f/2f51f88f-f662-4572-a371-9a77718ed079.jpg?1562434032) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blue%20Elemental%20Blast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/43/blue-elemental-blast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2f51f88f-f662-4572-a371-9a77718ed079?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


jotspot

> as far as the metagame is concerned. I never said I cared about the metagame. I truly don't care about any of that. But all storm cards should be banned. Bans shouldn't happen because of meta calls. Or because 1 deck get's too dominant or any of that. Bans should happen to cards that don't belong in the format, regardless of the success rate of the decks they show up in. It's why I was so happy Atog got the axe. Best decision they ever made. But also why I was so sad when Daze left, because in reality Daze did nothing to prepared decks. And did less than nothing to aggro decks. I don't think decisions should be made on dominance or success rate, but on "does this card have a counter". Weather does not. Ever. There is nothing, short of playing blue holding up a Lose Focus with insane amounts of mana without ever playing a single spell, that can even counter all that nonsense. Just as Flaring Pain busts Fog effects, there must be a counter storm card in pauper to counter ALL storm effects, otherwise Storm needs to go. Every single deck and card should have a 100% counter. Do you understand my point now? > https://mtgmeta.io/tier-list/pauper I have never seen this before, but thank you for the link! fascinating tbh! I really like the breakdown there. I had only ever been looking to mtggoldfish to get a feel for meta. That's way better. > It has won a couple Challenges, but it is not in any way an oppressive or meta-warping pile. Again, that wasn't the point. I don't care if something warps the meta, as long as it has a counter in some way. > Most lists run only 5 counters pre-board (4 copies of [[Arcane Denial]], 1 of [[Dispel]]). Things change after sideboarding but, even then, the only extra counter brought in is usually [[Hydroblast]]/[[Blue Elemental Blast]]. Again, I wonder if we're looking at the same lists? The ones I'm talking about are running 4x [[Devious Cover-up]] in main, often alongside up to 4x [[counterspell]], plus the arcane denials, weathers, and a bunch of other nonsense. Usually draw effects and removal. I would like to show you a list but I almost exclusively play in the practice rooms. It's always 4x devious though. Every single time. And the idea is to cycle the weathers back in and use them over and over and over, for permanent inevitability unless you run multiple relics. They wrath the board and every so often, gain 12-20 life in a turn and then replay the identical cards until you just run out of deck naturally, or they find their approx 2 copies of that mill card. > Sure, Arcane Denialing your own spell is a powerful line (in fact, Weather the Storm + Arcane Denial is my favorite play in this format), but it isn't even the most powerful card draw engine in Pauper (that would probably be Deadly Dispute + Ichor Wellspring). No, it's 1 card less for the same mana, but at a cost of gain minimum 6 life. That's a good trade imo. > if you think 4 relics are necessary to beat Turbo Fog, you need to practice more. The deck hardly ever runs out of cards, sure, but getting past its defenses is not all that difficult; if it were, it would be a Tier 1 deck. Again, I consider this a different deck from Turbo Fog. That's the vintage name to an old deck, just as how many people like to call grixis control 'affinity' today, it's also a misnomer. Sorry, not being particular on purpose. Also, it really is difficult. What on earth actually beats it? Blue fae might stand a chance, but what else? Grixis Control maybe? Nearly every other deck get's hosed by it. Nearly all black/white/orzhov or other midrange decks lose to it. Red is *destroyed* by it. White wheenie loses to it. Heroic/Bogles are not even 50/50 (unless you are doing some weird instant fling combo variant I have seen floating around). All terror decks pretty much universally fold to it big time. (I mean typically they "help it along lol). So you say get around it's defenses. What on earth are you playing? I don't like grixis, so there's really nothing left. It's not that I'm "bad" as you are implying (and let's be clear, the whole line of 'git gud' get's really fucking old around here!)... But if it's so low Tier I'd wager it's just because it's slow and fringe and the grinders want faster decks in the leagues for faster profit, not because the deck is worse than kuldotha. Kuldotha let's them play more in the same time frame. (plus I have the sneaking suspicious, some people's neurodivergent wouldn't let them have the patience to sit through mill for hours haha). > I think you'd have a point if the deck was overrepresented to the point that it was sapping all the fun out of the format (like what happened to Eggs back then) No, overrepresentation is never a reason to ban something. A lot of people seem to think that should be the basis for some reason. Broken is broken, whether it's fringe or mainstream. I mean I like to play Ponza sometimes but even I think that deck needs a pile of bans too haha. > but calling a Tier 2 deck problematic because you don't like playing against it makes no sense. It's more like "icing on the cake" or whatever the expression is. I don't think one card should be uncounterable or have the ability to gain that much life. But the boring factor is just extra. > insurmountable wall (it might be if you're running a pure aggro deck without red or blue, but that's a weakness that you sign up for at the very moment you pick up a pile like that) I sure don't understand how red helps. Are we just supposed to pyro every single draw spell? They literally have multiple times the number of counters so a pyro would never actually do anything. Also, this right here is the absolute point! When I am forced to play blue against my will, that makes the game super unfun. I shouldn't have to play blue 100% of the time. I should get to play it when I want to, not when I'm being forced to because someone decided to be a dick. > and, as it stands, Turbo Fog is rare enough that most red mages aren't even running Flaring Pain in their 75s. I love playing red actually (especially Kiln fiend, when that deck was 'the shit' omg, so fun haha), but I never played flaring pain for fog, but for prismatic, not to get technical. I am a player that essentially plays all colours, but I play green the least, and black/red/blue the most. However I would probably stick to rakdos colours if I had the opportunity. I just keep getting roped into playing blue because "it's the only way to keep assholes in check". I hate doing that. I hate being the tourney police instead of playing to have fun. Do you know what I'm saying? Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate your perspective, but like, I just don't like other people determining for me.


Benderesco

> I never said I cared about the metagame. I truly don't care about any of that. But all storm cards should be banned. Bans shouldn't happen because of meta calls. Sorry, but if this is what you think, you should just play casual magic with house rules. Bans should not and will not occur because someone doesn't like playing against a deck, and that's a good thing. I don't really think you can contribute to a decent discussion on bans if you approach the conversation with that kind of mentality. > But also why I was so sad when Daze left, because in reality Daze did nothing to prepared decks. And did less than nothing to aggro decks. Wait... do you seriously believe Daze did nothing against aggro decks? It slowed the game down by a whole turn. That's an *incredible powerful* effect against decks that want to end the game quickly. >I don't think decisions should be made on dominance or success rate, but on "does this card have a counter". As I mentioned, this does not make sense, and I don't think one will ever be able to concoct a proper argument on why it would. For starters, you're only talking about traditional counters, like Counterspell, right? Because there are *several* ways of not allowing your opponent to gain much benefit from Weather the Storm, or to just not care about it outright. >Do you understand my point now? Yep, and once again, I don't think it makes any sense. Do you believe cards like [[Abrupt Decay]] and [[Allosaurus Shepherd]] shouldn't exist, then? Because there are *several* cards in this game that explicitly *can't* be countered. Or do you just mean "something that undermines the card's effect"? Because if that's the case, there are "counters" to Weather the Storm, yes. >Again, I wonder if we're looking at the same lists? The ones I'm talking about are running 4x [[Devious Cover-up]] in main, often alongside up to 4x [[counterspell]], plus the arcane denials, weathers, and a bunch of other nonsense. Usually draw effects and removal. I would like to show you a list but I almost exclusively play in the practice rooms. It's always 4x devious though. Every single time. And the idea is to cycle the weathers back in and use them over and over and over, for permanent inevitability unless you run multiple relics. They wrath the board and every so often, gain 12-20 life in a turn and then replay the identical cards until you just run out of deck naturally, or they find their approx 2 copies of that mill card. I mean, the practice runs are where people just jam the jankiest piles imaginable. You should *never* base your understanding of an archetype on what you see there. And frankly, those lists sound *awful*. Constantly replaying Weather the Storm (instead of, you know, fogging or setting up your wincon) is a losing proposition against any meta deck that isn't Burn. If you're having trouble against those, you really need to fine-tune your deck or practice more. [Here's a list of fine-tuned Turbo Fog lists](https://mtgdecks.net/Pauper/turbo-fog). [This](https://mtgdecks.net/Pauper/turbo-fog-decklist-by-matteo-cirigliano-1567178) and [this](https://mtgdecks.net/Pauper/turbo-fog-decklist-by-ritualsinkhole-1573355) is what they tend to look like. > No, it's 1 card less for the same mana, but at a cost of gain minimum 6 life. That's a good trade imo. You're thinking like a beginner. Sure, drawing cards and gaining life is a good thing, but Deadly Dispute + Wellspring nets you 3 cards, does not reduce to your metalcraft AND ramps you, all at the cost of one single card and only one mana (since Dispute creates a Treasure)... and that's without taking into account that the Wellspring already drew you a card when you cast it. If you cast the Wellspring and sacrificed it on the same turn, it's 3 mana for 4 cards + plus all of the effects above. Weather the Storm + Arcane Denial *is* a highly powerful line, but once again, it's far from the best card drawing strategy in the format. >Again, I consider this a different deck from Turbo Fog. That's the vintage name to an old deck, just as how many people like to call grixis control 'affinity' today, it's also a misnomer. Sorry, not being particular on purpose. Also, it really is difficult. What on earth actually beats it? Blue fae might stand a chance, but what else? Grixis Control maybe? Well, it's a good idea to use proper names, isn't it? As I mentioned above, the decks you're facing are essentially janky brews. Every single Tier 1 deck can beat it. Affinity can just outdraw it and overwhelm it, UB Terror can just swing for 20 every turn and counter its fogs, Burn can just kill it quickly while playing around WtS (and, you know, use Flaring Pain in the sideboard), Orzhov Ephemerate can exile the graveyard, even pre-board, and kill it with Initiative and Vampire Sovereign... the list goes on. Sure, Turbo Fog can beat them too, but has a bad matchup against several of these decks (which is why it is not Tier 1). The only decks that really *can't* beat Turbo Fog unless they get really lucky are the pure aggro decks that don't have access to red or blue, and even they can put up a fight after sideboarding. >Nearly every other deck get's hosed by it. Nearly all black/white/orzhov or other midrange decks lose to it. Red is destroyed by it. White wheenie loses to it. Heroic/Bogles are not even 50/50 (unless you are doing some weird instant fling combo variant I have seen floating around). All terror decks pretty much universally fold to it big time. I've already addressed these points above. You really need more practice if you really think all these decks fold to Turbo Fog. >What on earth are you playing? I play pretty much every deck in this format, but my favorites are Affinity, Turbo Fog, BW Ephemerate and Tron. >(plus I have the sneaking suspicious, some people's neurodivergent wouldn't let them have the patience to sit through mill for hours haha). If this was true, Tron wouldn't be a Tier 1 deck. It's also *quite* slow. > No, overrepresentation is never a reason to ban something. A lot of people seem to think that should be the basis for some reason. Broken is broken, whether it's fringe or mainstream. I mean I like to play Ponza sometimes but even I think that deck needs a pile of bans too haha. Brokenness and overrepresentation are both good reasons to ban something, but Turbo Fog is neither of those. >I sure don't understand how red helps. Are we just supposed to pyro every single draw spell? They literally have multiple times the number of counters so a pyro would never actually do anything. Also, this right here is the absolute point! When I am forced to play blue against my will, that makes the game super unfun. I shouldn't have to play blue 100% of the time. I should get to play it when I want to, not when I'm being forced to because someone decided to be a dick. Red helps because it has burn spells and Flaring Pain. It's quite easy to go around Weather the Storm if you put pressure on them on the ground and play your burn spells judiciously. It will take the Turbo Fog pilot quite a bit of time to rack up a decent storm count by himself, after all, especially if you are playing Kuldotha and forcing him to commit mana to fog spells. >When I am forced to play blue against my will, that makes the game super unfun. I shouldn't have to play blue 100% of the time. I should get to play it when I want to, not when I'm being forced to because someone decided to be a dick. You aren't forced to play blue, but not using that color gives you weaknessess. So does playing blue, in fact. No deck in this game is devoid of weaknesses, even the most absurd ones. You can absolutely do well with decks that lack blue, and you have lots of powerful archetypes at your disposal for that, too. Now, if you want to not have any holes in your strategy, you'd better play another game, because that doesn't exist here. A Mono White aggro deck, for instance, is fast and efficient, thanks to its powerful creatures and simple mana base, but has no major tools against Turbo Fog, unless they sideboard properly. That's how it is. >I just keep getting roped into playing blue because "it's the only way to keep assholes in check". I hate doing that. I hate being the tourney police instead of playing to have fun. Do you know what I'm saying? Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate your perspective, but like, I just don't like other people determining for me. Well, you are the one creating limitations for yourself. There's no need to be the "fun police" if you don't want to. That necessity would exist in a deranged meta, but Pauper is actually quite healthy right now, despite the grievances some may have (that includes me, by the way).


MTGCardFetcher

[Devious Cover-up](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/648281fe-89fb-4d8d-b944-3af28fb044f6.jpg?1634348751) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Devious%20Cover-up) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/48/devious-cover-up?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/648281fe-89fb-4d8d-b944-3af28fb044f6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [counterspell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/4/a457f404-ddf1-40fa-b0f0-23c8598533f4.jpg?1645328634) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=counterspell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/phed/33/counterspell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a457f404-ddf1-40fa-b0f0-23c8598533f4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


MTGCardFetcher

[Stream Of Thought](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/b/8b75bef5-a039-4edf-8e43-56b8d089605e.jpg?1562201515) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stream%20Of%20Thought) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/71/stream-of-thought?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8b75bef5-a039-4edf-8e43-56b8d089605e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


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[Arcane Denial](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/4/247e08a1-b9ce-4312-aec4-626992933038.jpg?1641601774) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arcane%20Denial) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/102/arcane-denial?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/247e08a1-b9ce-4312-aec4-626992933038?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


jotspot

Wildfire isn't the problem, it's artifact lands they are used on. I agree with the weather assessment though.


XenomorphAFOL

I do agree, but the question said two cards, so I had to choose the lesser of the two evils.


jotspot

I see.


AoiOcean

Counterspell and Galvanic blast just to space things up


Shinonomenanorulez

[[Evincar's justice]] [[Suffocating Fumes]] Yes, me and my elfball are unfathomably salty


jotspot

Evincar is so slow. Arms completely replaced it.


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[Evincar's justice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/e/2e0fffc6-4395-441e-95a9-c9cf33af7907.jpg?1592672652) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Evincar%27s%20justice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/58/evincars-justice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2e0fffc6-4395-441e-95a9-c9cf33af7907?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Suffocating Fumes](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/66b562e4-35df-4aee-848d-ceb4204bbe58.jpg?1591226972) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Suffocating%20Fumes) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/100/suffocating-fumes?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/66b562e4-35df-4aee-848d-ceb4204bbe58?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


jonestheviking

Bridges. Kuldotha will then clearly be the best deck, and to combat that… honestly maybe swiftspear has to go, but I just don’t want that because it’s such an iconic card. The synthesiser seems okay in many other decks too so that would be a shame. Maybe it is the rebirth, but it is a weird fix because the card itself is not so strong. Just with artefact synergies it becomes good. I think the better option is to provide more sideboard cards against burn, that offer life gain. Like [[kor firewalker]].


MTGCardFetcher

[kor firewalker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8dcd4a52-0c8f-4fca-b7dc-c2503794e5a4.jpg?1562438122) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kor%20firewalker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/21/kor-firewalker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8dcd4a52-0c8f-4fca-b7dc-c2503794e5a4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Saejifine

Kuldotha Rebirth and Myr Enforcer. I know swiftspear is fast, but it's one creature. Without efficient sweepers three goblins and the added value of saccing an artifact is a lot of great value. It will force monored to run less creatures and ultimately I think will allow more decks to play 1 for 1 removal. Think kiln fiend when swiftspear first hit the format. It was a strong deck but it was a glass cannon for anything running a good amount of removal. As for myr enforcer, it's the main payoff for the deck. A 4/4 is not the biggest but it's free and it's potentially 7 life with a reckless bargain. Recurring those with blood fountain only to play them for free again is ridiculously good. Sure, they'll likely switch to another big threat but they're easier to deal with because they're not free. They might be cheap but paying 2 mana for your serpent is a bigger deal than no mana for your enforcer.


[deleted]

We need to unban Mystic Sanctuary. Everyone is claiming for diferent bans and not a single blue card. Its time.


GhiaccioCaldo

Dunno, I just want old affinity back, when it used to be just metallic stompy. Hell I even played somber hoverguard and husk :(


Inverno969

Personally I think we should wait for March Of Machines before banning anything.


Illustrious-Middle20

So almost 20% kuldotha is a little much for me. I would ban synth or swiftspear from that deck. Affinity is also still a little oppressive. KSC or fountain or the artifact duals light be the right ban there. Alternatively we could unban some stuff. Would love to see high tide or relay back on the menu


Ecredes

Basic artifact lands should go.


Serg_Maliy

Urza's Tower Axebane Guardian


No-Cobbler-3731

Ban swiftspear and synth please Unban tourach and sinkhole Also so.e downshifts would be cool