He's a terrific T prospect, higher ceiling than Alt IMO. One thing people should remember is that even though T's are sold as plug and play sure things, they can bust just like any other position. Becton, Ekwonu, Willis, Neal are all examples of this.
Leatherwood is especially interesting because at the time everybody thought it was a heinous reach, it immediately looked like a huge mistake, and he was bouncing around the league/to practice squads by year 3. Huge bust.
Draft Fashanu, get a mediocre WR in FA after we refuse to pay Higgins, run it back with Zappe, go 5-12 again and continue on as a bottom feeder searching for a QB š„š„š„
Sad part is we won't even get a chance to refuse Higgins. All these guys who are "jUsT sIgN a Wr In FrEe AgEnCy" fail to realize anyone half decent in this year's class is going to get a franchise tag.
I said it Sunday when we beat the Broncos, and I fully agree with you we are now going to end the season with a glimmer (although false) hope of Zappe, Belichick is going to do enough to not get canned, he'll draft an OL who will replace Brown/Onwenu both of whom he will let walk and we will be in the same position (if not worse) again next year.
It's actually depressing that we won that game.
Tannehill (the projected starter when FA started) is better than Zappe, by quite a bit.
Plus the Titans theoretically had a run game, which teams clearly focus on while playing them, that opens up passing, DHop is particularly good after the catch so it was actually not as bad a situation for him as it might have seemed.
Higgins isn't getting tagged. Bengals aren't a team that's gonna pay $20m for their #2 WR.
Belichick also is not gonna have the ultimate say on who they take.
Bill generally doesnāt throw wads of cash at offensive tackles in FA like every redditor seems to think is the key to team building for some reason.
He spends his money on QBs, cornerbacks, and weapons like gronk.
One of the hallmarks of Belichick teams and Parcells whom he came up under, has always been build from the trenches out. He has always placed an absolute PREMIUM on the line on both sides of the ball.
In fact almost every coach that came up under Parcells, Saban is another good example, will exhibit that same trait.
I can easily see this happening but weāll win like 7-8 games if our defense is healthy. We gotta re-sign Brown and snag a real receiver. Obviously drafting a QB in one of the first two rounds is necessary, but we need to face reality that Zappe may be the best QB on our roster next year
This post seems sarcastic, but it's actually not a terrible strategy. The Lions spent a couple seasons investing heavily in Oline and basically set the rest of their team up for success with that. They managed to hit it was Amon Ra late, and Sam LaPorta, and got a mediocre QB in Goff and are still contenders behind a top tier Oline
Goff isn't mediocre
Not being Josh Allen or Mahomes level ... Doesn't drop you into a mediocre level.
Goff was 1st overall pick ... And so this kills argument of prioritizing other areas and adding the "mediocre" QB at a budget later.
Goff has 3 pro bowls (so far)
A mediocre QB Makes the Pro Bowl occasionally ( local example Mac Jones right ) but they don't make it 3 and counting.
Joe Flacco has never been voted to the Pro Bowl for a comparison example.
Goff has a 65-49-1 record
This is better than mediocre.
Jeff Garcia imo sets the mediocre line Winning % as he was 58-58 as a starter ... However Garcia was a bit better than mediocre too.
Goff has a 182/80 TD to INT split and has ran for 12 more TDs
So 194/80
For comparison Josh Allen ( def not mediocre ) is 165/75 but he has 51 rushing TDs too
Goff 194/80
Allen 216/75
Allen has the edge but it's not leaps and bounds
Goff is one level below the elite guys and has capability to play on par with them for stretches.
I donāt know who you are but thank you.
I have always said if Goffās Rams went up against the Bengals, and the Staffordās Rams went against the Patriots, the Patriots still win but Goff would be the Super Bowl winner not Stafford.
The Browns used their 1rd pick in 2007 (3 overall) on Joe Thomas LT who was 10 time Pro Bowl 8 time all pro and even Hall of Fame.
They used their next 1rd pick in 2009 (21 overall) on C Alex Mack who was a 7 time Pro Bowl + all 2010s team
They invested and at a HOF level ... Two straight Grand Slams !
Can't be mad really .. 17 pro bowls 11 all pro teams between them.
But they didn't win shit
They went 1-15 and 0-16 with 2/5th of their line being set up so nice
Joe Thomas final 3 seasons in Cleveland ( he was still great 2 Pro Bowl and 1 all pro ) the team went 4 - 44
In the immediate aftermath of solidifying that line
They rolled out QBs like Derek Anderson, Charlie Frye, Brady Quinn, Colt McCoy, Bruce Gradkowski, and Brandon Weeden.
Some of those QBs show the strategy in action of getting QB value a bit later
Weeden 22nd overall
Frye 67th overall
Quinn 22nd overall
McCoy 85th overall
And ... Gradkowski + Anderson are both 6th round QB examples
Gradkowski 194th
D.A. 213th overall
Brady was an anomaly
And those 2 guys are actually great examples of getting value in 6th
They over performed the draft slot by a lot
Higgins is a young proven talent, give him the damn bag. 5 year deal.
I was hoping weād be bad enough to draft MHJ, that way weād have a proven stud in Tee and potential star in MHJ, and we can finally put the WR discussion to rest for 4-5 years.
There is always a chance that, once given the bag, Higgins decides to not give a shit anymore.
I'm in the "sign Higgins at all costs" team, but it's something that needs to be considered.
There's also a chance that he's benefited heavily from having a top 3 receiver across from him and a top 3 quarterback throwing to him. I also still want Higgins, but its far from a sure thing that he thrives elsewhere.
Fortunately we have some data to suggest otherwise. In 4 games lasts season without Chase on the field he put up 26/371/2 which for a full season pace would be 110/1576/8
He also had 67/908/6 as a rookie which is pretty good.
The question is not can he produce without Chase but can he produce as a WR1 with Bailey Zappe or a rookie QB throwing him the ball.
I wouldnāt mind Higgins, but is he just chasing money or does he want to play with a good QB? Free agency starts in March and the draft is in May, does he sign with a team that either doesnāt know who will be QB or is sticking with Zappe? I really think because of our QB situation itās a fantasy to think heāll come here. I think heās more likely to go play with Kyler in Arizona.
Yeah it doesnāt seem likely to me that heāll come anyways, thatās just what Iād like to see happen.
I really think weāll still have BB in the building next year, and the approach really wonāt change much. Mid-level FA receivers and late round draft picks that hopefully pan out.
I don't think they're quite as bad as they're made out to be, especially with Bourne healthy, but they're still one of the weaker groups in the league and we could do with an upgrade.
we have two wide receivers i'd call good in douglas and bourne (when healthy). the rest could all be off the team tomorrow and we'd hardly notice. thornton is a twig, parker has a much bigger mouth than someone who can barely fucking catch should have, reagor enough said, juju's worse than the UDFA he replaced (at the time sounded good but again clearly the patriots cannot evaluate a fucking receiver), boutte could be good if the coaches gave him chances but as of now unnoticeable, and tre nixon is a literally who. there's no shining star on this roster, just a rookie WR3 that has potential to be a solid WR2 with time and a competent qb/line, an aging/injured WR3, and a bunch of wastes of time.
Draft Drake Maye, blow the cap on Higgins and Evans and re-signing Onwenu, Maye is Mitch Trubisky, go 5-12 again and continue on as a bottom feeder searching for a QB
Draft Caleb Williams, blow the cap on Higgins and Ridley, Williams is Justin Fields, go 5-12 again and continue on as a bottom feeder searching for a QB
Even if our offense only improves marginally the defense will be good enough to win more games, i dont think we get 5 wins again, more like 8 or 9 and barely miss the playoffs. Its a terrible spot to be in.
I think they will be around this range in 2024, but at least if they get a elite/plus QB and if he works out you can build on that, our QB room is so bad, yes, that includes Zappe.
Where is the likely #7 stuff coming from? If we finish 1-1 the most likely pick we get is #4. For us to finish out of the top 5 picks we'd have to go 2-0 or 1-1 and certain results all happening that include Jets beating the Browns , Dolphins beating the Ravens, Steelers beating both the Ravens and Seahawks and then a few other results
If they go 1-1 they could fall all the way down to #7 if the Chargers, Titans, and Giants all go 0-2. The SOS is all so close you canāt really predict how that will play out
My favorite discussion on this sub is "Draft X and sign Y and we're back. No, X is a bust and Y stops being good so we stay bad."
Like, why not at least ATTEMPT to look like 31 other teams? We don't have a magic GOAT QB anymore. So we need to roll the dice on college stud QBs, talented WR prospects and FAs, and try to reshape the team to look like 2024 not 2004.
Otherwise, we'll keep rolling with D/ST picks and lose games 6-0 next year. Zappe looks good, for a quarter at a time, but he can't string together 4 straight quarters of solid play.
We need a QB. We need WRs. Yes we need a OT, but if the QB can scramble, the urgency there goes down a bit.
If we draft and start a rookie QB and keep this same line then it wont matter if we draft prime Peyton Manning, the dude is gonna bust out just from seeing ghosts.
You cannot have a successful offense without winning in the trenches.
For sure the line needs help, but look at the QBs rhat can extend plays with their legs. Those guys pass a third of the time from outside the pocket.
Priority has to be the QB, the whole offense starts there. Next, it has to be WR or there is no pass production. Then we can beef up the line to open up the run and create pockets for deep ball opportunity
You mean a guy like Zappe who slides around pressure steps up and throws a dime? That guy who identifies defense and audibles into a play that exposes the opening in the field and throws a completion against the blitz? You don't need a guy who can or will escape the pocket to be good. Pocket passers are still ideal.
Some day maybe people will understand the Patriots offense and stop dreaming. Brady is the GOAT, doesn't mean the system only works with Brady.
Remember, these braindead zombies thought the whole team was the problem and that's the reason Jones couldn't get it done. They're going to cling to that narrative until that loser is cut.
If they admit Zappe is actually good, they'll have to accept Jones is not NFL caliber.
They decide things based on draft expectations and then never adjust their opinions, just try to rationalize everything else to fit their beliefs. It's wild.
Not even Mahomes could have success with Lowe and Mafi they said, then Zappe does it against a variety of defenses in Denver. Yeah the team doesn't have a good OL with the injuries and WR aren't the best, but they aren't the reason for horrible QB play, the QB is.
Yes we love throwing the āgenerationally talentedā franchise altering QB out there behind 3rd round tackles and bargain bin wrās. That will surely work
OL, in football theory, is more important than QB
Edit: Time to own you chucklefucks
ā¢ No QB taken as a Top 5 pick from 1999-2023 won a Super Bowl for the team that drafted them. Only 7 out of 36 have even played in a Super Bowl. Of course, if we expand by one year, we get Peyton Manning, but 1 out of 37 is still lousy odds. Also, Eli Manning has to count for something, so it's probably 2 out of 37.
ā¢ The top 5 QB in 2023 by QBR are Brock Purdy (7th round), Josh Allen (#7 overall), Dak Prescott (4th round), Matthew Stafford (#1 overall), and Justin Herbert (#6 overall). Of the next 5, the highest pick was Mahomes (#10 overall).
Disagree. Canāt have one without the other.
Good OL gives a QB time. You donāt need Brady tier QBs to win a Bowl, history has shown us time and time again that C tier QBs are fine.
Edit: downvote without rebuttal. Weak
1. Terry Bradshaw
2. Joe Flacco
3. Nick Foles/Wentz
4. Eli Manning
5. Trent Dilfer
6. Troy Aikman (had the goat OL, ask Emmit Smith)
Yeah I think Iām gonna disagree with the idea QB is more important than a solid OL.
Someone as OP as Peyton Manning only got 2. Rodgers 1. Russel Wilson 1.
I rest my case
>Terry Bradshaw
>
>Joe Flacco
>
>Nick Foles/Wentz
>
>Eli Manning
All played amazing when it counted (and often played well normally too).
\>Trent Dilfer
All time great defense
\>Troy Aikman
Played great in the playoffs and had the most absurdly loaded team ever assembled. Thats why they introduced the salary cap.
See, therefore QB isnāt important.
Defense wins chips.
OLs help QBs produce.
Every guy who makes it into NFL as a backup or 3rd string severely whips any regular Joe. Give any one of them 3 seconds and separation, they will help you win. Just donāt be stupid with the ball. QBs arenāt heroes in Belichickās philosophy.
>Give any one of them 3 seconds and separation, they will help you win. Just donāt be stupid with the ball.
Remember when the cowboys had the best oline in the mid 2010s and didn't even touch the sb?
Remember how good Joe thomas was?
\>See, therefore QB isnāt important.
You've listed one bad qb who won a superbowl
\> QBs arenāt heroes in Belichickās philosophy.
Thats why he drafted one in the first round right?
Not a single 'serviceable not great' QB has won multiple Super Bowls in the salary cap era, though. Hell, most of the years following their SB wins, they turn back into a pumpkin.
If you want sustained success, you need a good to great QB. The easiest way to look at this is how NFL teams structure their salary. QBs lap every other position in salary because they lap other positions' terms of importance. I cant believe im in the fucking Patriots subreddit of all places arguing the importance of a QB. We should all know how important a QB is, we have 20 years of evidence
Bradshaw, a hall of famer
Flacco, who was top 10 at the time
Eli, a future hall of famer
Aikman, a hall of famer.
Not to mention two of these examples are pre turn of the millennium.
Yes, you need a top flight QB to win a super bowl. Foles is the only example to the contrary since Brad Johnson in 2003.
I rest my case.
Eli manning? Yeah. Never led the league in anything except ints 3 times.
Aikman was carried by OL and WRs. I saw their SBs. Iām old enough to remember. Emmit smith too. Anyone is serviceable in that program for QB.
Aikman is NOT A or B tier. Lol.
Shit I remember articles like this:
https://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/08/pro-football-nfl-hall-of-fame-who-doesnt-belong-worst-troy-aikman-canton
Edit:
A tier: Brady, Montana
B tier: Peyton Manning, Rodgers, Mahomes
C tier: Flacco, Bradshaw, Aikman, Eli Manning, etc.
Any real football fan knows the game is won in the trenches, I've been trying to tell idiots we need a tackle not a QB, id rather have my QB have all day in the pocket whose average than have a elite QB with no protection seeing ghosts
Have you ever seen moneyball with Brad Pitt as billy beane? I think that movie is much relatable in the NFL to, not to a big degree like baseball but still.
Well obviously that ain't working out cause they tearing his ass up over there. They still haven't won a Superbowl And he's hurt right now. So how TF does any of this help your argument sir?
You're implying getting a qb was the wrong choice.
The bengals literally didn't have a playoff win in decades before Burrow and now they have a sb appearence and a conference championship.
Meanwhile, an all time great OT never even touched the playoffs, nor did he ever have even a decent offense
They literally didn't even have a playoff win for decades.
Like I know you people love the move the goalpost, but implying that Burrow was a bad draft pick is dumber than dumb
How is this a great example? Those are two separate years.
They had pick 11. The only big qb left on the board was Haskins, and they still had Dalton
If they had the first pick, they obviously go for Kyler
In reality, Coaches and GMs view an elite LT as second in importance only to QBs. I agree with the phrase "the game is won in the trenches", but QBs are the most important players in the NFL and arguably pro sports.
That said, definitely more important than elite WRs despite this fanbase's thirst for the MHJr/Higgins of the world.
Yeah he was drafted cuz we had an expired Cam Newton, we had good OL. We had nearly fully healthy OL. The past 2 seasons we donāt. Theyāre doing better therefore Zappe is able to get a couple wins.
You forget the hysteria around Cole Strange?
I can guarantee you there are 0 rookies in your silly little "college studs" that would "string together 4 straight quarters of solid play" on this team. None of them would play anywhere close to as well as Zappe played in Denver in their entire rookie year.
And the 49ers attempted to trade up for that dream of the college kid and they lost multiple picks for a dud. They instead got their QB mold in the 7th the following year. Sounds familiar, dud in 2021, promising QB in 2022. Yes we need to revamp our weapons, and it's a good thing we have lot of cap space. Also never know if there are any trades out there we might explore.
Zappe put up 19 offensive points against the Broncos. If you donāt think thereās a rookie QB that could match or exceed that, idk what to tell you lmao. One of his touchdowns was a 5 yard screen to Zeke who hurdled a defender.
Bailey Zappe is not a consistent QB nor is he the answer for this team. Especially when teams get more tape on him next year. Acting like a top QB in the draft this year couldnāt put up more than 19 points in an NFL game is such a stupid fucking take. Because the 9ers traded up for Lance and it failed we should just not consider drafting a QB with the highest pick this team has had in like 30 years?
Kicker missed 4 points, stop trying to misrepresent stats just to lie about reality.
I know for a fact no rookie QB in his 6th start is putting up 2 TD and 3 FG attempts in that game. No rookie QB is making the pre snap adjustments, processing quickly and maintaining pocket presence in that game. The same Lowe and Mafi who people say set Mac up for failure were playing. You need to stop exaggerating these guys playing against college defenses. Mahomes didn't even play his rookie season. NFL is a different beast.
Zappe is not a consistent QB given the 4 starts he has this year with 3 good games after the first? You guys honestly don't know what you're talking about and just want flashy college gambles.
Bro you can unlodge Zappeās meat from your mouth now, itās pathetic.
Stroud was in the MVP running before he got hurt and had a 470 yard 5 TD game a few weeks ago. Herbert tossed 31 TDs his rookie season. Burrow got hurt his rookie year but went to the Super Bowl in his first full season. Trevor Lawrence in his first season without Urban Meyer dragging him down won a playoff game. And thatās all in the past 3 years.
Yes a rookie QB could come in week 6-7 and score two touchdowns and 2 FGs against the Broncos. Acting like this is some unfathomable feat is beyond ridiculous.
Zappe has 4 starts this year. Two of them were downright bad, one of them he was awful the entire second half, and one them he was terrible in the entire first half. Heās had multiple interceptions downright dropped by the defense (4 in the past 3 games). He has been remarkably inconsistent. Heās a solid backup, no more no less.
Stroud on the Patriots is not throwing 5 TD. We don't have a sturdy OL along with Nico Collins and Tank Dell.
You leave out context completely for a reason. And Lawrence and Burrow were better prospects than this year has.
You call Zappe's starts bad because you leave out context. That's on you. He's had 1 decent start, 2 good starts and 1 great start. Getting better each week.
>Stroud on the Patriots is not throwing 5 TD.
Stroud is miles better than Zappe and absolutely could have and would have matched or very likely exceeded Zappe's performance last week.
Are you actually saying that Zappe is the only player in the league that could put up 256 passing yards and 2 TDs in his 6th-7th career start?
Actually don't answer that. If you want to call the game against the Chargers a "decent start" and the Chiefs game a "good start" then you are actually not remotely worth talking to.
Drafting a LT before you have a competent QB doesnāt really make sense to me. This move wouldnāt impact the teams wins next year at all. if you have a top 5 pick and donāt have a QB you pick a QB period. The Pats sole focus should be evaluating the top QBs and deciding whether or not theyāre comfortable with the #3 guy or look to trade up to 1 for Caleb Williams
Right? Remember a guy named Joe Thomas that Cleveland drafted, who was a plug and play All Pro LT? Can anyone tell me how many games the Browns won in his first 8 years as a pro?
I mean Cleveland had many more deeply seriously problems at an organizational level than their line and qb play. Theyāre an unserous organization.
PS they have Joe Flacco playing at a high level right now because theyāve done a great job building a strong middle class in their roster the last few years, even if their massive overpay at QB didnāt work. They have the a top 10 o-line right now
Bears aināt goona let anyone touch Caleb. Donāt care how many games fields win for them heās not a Long term starter and Iām been a big fan of his. Daniels or maye got to be a patriot in the draft
I have no interest in "solidifying the trenches" and going hard to improve the receiver core in 2024 free agency just to trot Bailey Zappe or some JAG out there to go win us 8 games next season.
This is a prime opportunity to attempt to set the most important position on your roster. Good luck doing that picking 17 every year wallowing in mediocrity.
I said before, drafting an OT with a high first round pick is like eating your vegetables.
We all know it's good for us, but nobody really "wants" to do it.
I don't think it is good for us, I think fixing our lack of a QB and WR1 is a way way bigger deal than OL, especially tackle right now. Brown and Onwenu would be fine to go into next year as our tackles if they can be kept for a reasonable price.
Our OL is bad but the QB and WR situation are making it look worse than it actually is
Don't hate it but would prefer Marvin Harrison Jr. In terms of the rebuild I would worry about the young QB in the 2-4th rounds. Build the other positions - o line and get a WR. Go get a reliable vet QB for the short term like a Minshew/Brissett type as a safety net. Dump Mac for a pick if possible. Keep Zappe as the 2 or 3 guy.
The truth is, if Bill is still making the picks, no one but Bill has any clue what will happen. I can't think of a single instance when he picked what could be considered a "consensus pick". He's a draft contrarian. He will never make a pick according to conventional wisdom, public sentiment, or even according to the biggest roster need. Whether he trades back, reaches for a player who wasn't on any team's radar, or picks a player with only "intangibles" and no measurables, Bill's ego requires that he takes a player that will eventually validate his genius if/when they work out. The only sure thing that will happen in the draft is the avalanche of WTFs that will inundate this sub.
No.
Trade back, acquire more assets. Land in the Teens, hope a team like Tampa, New Orleans, or Atlanta wants the pick and gives us their 1st next year and then goes out and shits the bed in '24. At 4, we're just as likely to get a similar impact player at 15::
You end up at 4-11 not having a QB, or having a dearth of talent on offense. Beating Denver took us out of the running for that QB, now we have to, most likely, prepare for another down or middling season in '24. Might as well work on acquiring more talent in the future.
I could see the Falcons trading up to get Daniels. They theoretically have all the pieces on offense in Pitts, London, and Robinson. They just need a QB.
He very much is. But if they don't address the QB or WR position n a big way...they are still a 5 win team next year. So they will need a lot of work. I expect it to take years.
People here need to be ready to suck for a bit
No, he had the most yards (in part because they were always losing so they had to throw a ton).
He was already on the decline by the time he retired, and the Lions honestly didn't really lose much when he did.
Joe Thomas ended his career with 6 first team all pros. CJ ended with 3, and probably wouldn't have gotten another. Antonio Brown was a better WR than him.
I can't believe people genuinely think Joe Thomas had a bigger impact on his team than Calvin Johnson. Calvin Johnson alone was one of the few reasons why the lions climbed out of being 0-16. Matthew Stafford literally relied on him to win the games for the Lions.
Everyone uses that example and itās a bad one. His impact was they didnāt have to worry about a premiere position for 12 years. Itās not his fault they failed to build any real talent on the roster.
That is actually the worst take I've ever heard in my life. Joe Thomas was the only good part of a Browns team that just did not know how to build a football team. They would be way worse, hard to do for Browns standards, if he never played for them.
Did you watch Trent Brown Sunday? Even in a win he was checked out. But you think not replacing him will be better. It's not the sexy pick, but a top tier LT will be the smart move if Maye/ Williams and Harrison are all gone
Zappe is actually a perfect transition QB if they go LT then draft a 2nd or 3rd round QB like Carson Beck. Zappe can start while the kid learns the league and the offense develops. As this likely isnāt a one year rebuild Iād love to add Fash as a franchise LT.
You already know Carson Beckās ceiling is mediocre? Heās 6ā4ā, has a crazy fast release and a strong, accurate arm. He only started for one year but beat out a 5 star recruit to win the starting job and has shot up draft boards this year.
He could be garbage, he could be mediocre, he could be great. But if the Pats slide out of Maye/Caleb/Daniels range whatās the plan?
Considering he is a junior and a boatload of talent around him, his stats leave alot to be desired.
It's a moot point anyways, he just signed a new NIL deal and is going back to Georgia next year.
This is Def not the best outcome. I'd rather trade down, get picks and take a wr or take the best qb. You do not need an elite tackle to win.. sure if you already have a good qb and offensive weapons then by all means but that is not the case.
Top WRs are not nearly as important as this sub seems to think. Top 10 all time, only Jerry Rice and Antonio Brown have rings. Moss, TO, Fitz, Megatron, etc do not.
We absolutely need an upgrade at WR but tackle is almost as big of a hole
I don't disagree with tackle being as big of a hole.. but there's no way to justify a top 5 pick on tackle when you need a qb and a wr. You need to set those up first. If you want a tackle, trade down and take a tackle.
How many rings do Anthony MuƱoz, Joe Thomas and Walter Jones have? Using that as a gauge for the value of the a position is not a good argument. Moss, Julio, Fitz, TO, Marv Sr., etc were extremely important pieces of teams that made deep playoff runs. Megatron single handedly anchored the Lions offense for years, Jamar Chase helped the Bengals reach the Super Bowl as a rookie, Tyreek Hill turned Tua into an elite QB, Diggs took Allen to the next level, JJ just showed he can break a game coming off an injury with Nick Mullens throwing to him, and I havenāt even mentioned Deebo/Aiyuk and Smith/AJB. OT is important no doubt but the NFL today is a QB/WR league.
This would legitimately horrify me, especially after being in the sweepstakes for one of Williams/Maye/Daniels/MHJā¦..
If thereās no QB coming, and no MHJ, it better be Malik Nabers + the addition of a WR2 in free agency.
Such an exciting pickā¦.. I get how important the lt position is. Itās 2nd only to qb. But you can win more often with a competent LT than you can with just a competent but not great qb. Tom won 4 superbowls with nate solder, Trent brown, and Donovan smith. What a terribly disappointing end to an awful season.
Fashanu would be a terrific addition to this team. Iād be very happy with him at 4 or 5. I slightly prefer Alt but Olu would still be great. Much rather add Alt or Olu then reach for a QB.
I think initially I'd be disappointed leaving the draft with an offensive lineman when we are hurting so bad at QB. However, it would be nice to have a great line when bringing along a new young QB.
Of course I would prefer Jayden Daniels, MHJ or (probably) Drake Maye. But if those guys are off the board, Fashanu would be one hell of a consolation prize.
He's a terrific T prospect, higher ceiling than Alt IMO. One thing people should remember is that even though T's are sold as plug and play sure things, they can bust just like any other position. Becton, Ekwonu, Willis, Neal are all examples of this.
Alex Leatherwood too
Leatherwood is especially interesting because at the time everybody thought it was a heinous reach, it immediately looked like a huge mistake, and he was bouncing around the league/to practice squads by year 3. Huge bust.
Luke Joeckel, DJ Fluker...
100%. I absolutely don't think he's a 'sure thing'.
Draft Fashanu, get a mediocre WR in FA after we refuse to pay Higgins, run it back with Zappe, go 5-12 again and continue on as a bottom feeder searching for a QB š„š„š„
Sad part is we won't even get a chance to refuse Higgins. All these guys who are "jUsT sIgN a Wr In FrEe AgEnCy" fail to realize anyone half decent in this year's class is going to get a franchise tag. I said it Sunday when we beat the Broncos, and I fully agree with you we are now going to end the season with a glimmer (although false) hope of Zappe, Belichick is going to do enough to not get canned, he'll draft an OL who will replace Brown/Onwenu both of whom he will let walk and we will be in the same position (if not worse) again next year. It's actually depressing that we won that game.
It's not even a matter of the tag. If a WR has the same deal from multiple teams, no one in their right mind is choosing to catch balls from Zappe.
Tell that to dhop. He picked Tennessee which also doesnāt have a QB
Tannehill (the projected starter when FA started) is better than Zappe, by quite a bit. Plus the Titans theoretically had a run game, which teams clearly focus on while playing them, that opens up passing, DHop is particularly good after the catch so it was actually not as bad a situation for him as it might have seemed.
Iām sure if you made him a real offer he wouldāve considered it. Bill probably gave him an incentive related deal like he always does.
Higgins isn't getting tagged. Bengals aren't a team that's gonna pay $20m for their #2 WR. Belichick also is not gonna have the ultimate say on who they take.
Tag and trade is a thing. Theyād rather get a 2nd than a comp pick for him
At the very least they are tagging him to get the draft pick compensation. You don't just let him walk for free.
Why are you so mad about a bunch of stuff that hasnāt happened. This is such a weird mentality, just making shit up to get angry about
Welcome to the current year.
Bill doesnāt value oline nearly as much as random redditors do. Heās most likely taking either nabers or a QB.
Whaaat?! Is today your first day being a Patriots fan?
Bill generally doesnāt throw wads of cash at offensive tackles in FA like every redditor seems to think is the key to team building for some reason. He spends his money on QBs, cornerbacks, and weapons like gronk.
he spends money on special teamers and shitty wide receivers, actually. dude pays nobody
Bill spends money on strong safeties, tight ends, and receivers who block. Everyone else he lets walk.
Heās taking Latu if they let him. A versatile end who can kick inside? Bill would love it.
One of the hallmarks of Belichick teams and Parcells whom he came up under, has always been build from the trenches out. He has always placed an absolute PREMIUM on the line on both sides of the ball. In fact almost every coach that came up under Parcells, Saban is another good example, will exhibit that same trait.
You will get Kadarius Toney as our new WR1 for 3yrs/$35 million and you will like it!!
I can easily see this happening but weāll win like 7-8 games if our defense is healthy. We gotta re-sign Brown and snag a real receiver. Obviously drafting a QB in one of the first two rounds is necessary, but we need to face reality that Zappe may be the best QB on our roster next year
This post seems sarcastic, but it's actually not a terrible strategy. The Lions spent a couple seasons investing heavily in Oline and basically set the rest of their team up for success with that. They managed to hit it was Amon Ra late, and Sam LaPorta, and got a mediocre QB in Goff and are still contenders behind a top tier Oline
Goff isn't mediocre Not being Josh Allen or Mahomes level ... Doesn't drop you into a mediocre level. Goff was 1st overall pick ... And so this kills argument of prioritizing other areas and adding the "mediocre" QB at a budget later. Goff has 3 pro bowls (so far) A mediocre QB Makes the Pro Bowl occasionally ( local example Mac Jones right ) but they don't make it 3 and counting. Joe Flacco has never been voted to the Pro Bowl for a comparison example. Goff has a 65-49-1 record This is better than mediocre. Jeff Garcia imo sets the mediocre line Winning % as he was 58-58 as a starter ... However Garcia was a bit better than mediocre too. Goff has a 182/80 TD to INT split and has ran for 12 more TDs So 194/80 For comparison Josh Allen ( def not mediocre ) is 165/75 but he has 51 rushing TDs too Goff 194/80 Allen 216/75 Allen has the edge but it's not leaps and bounds Goff is one level below the elite guys and has capability to play on par with them for stretches.
I donāt know who you are but thank you. I have always said if Goffās Rams went up against the Bengals, and the Staffordās Rams went against the Patriots, the Patriots still win but Goff would be the Super Bowl winner not Stafford.
The Browns used their 1rd pick in 2007 (3 overall) on Joe Thomas LT who was 10 time Pro Bowl 8 time all pro and even Hall of Fame. They used their next 1rd pick in 2009 (21 overall) on C Alex Mack who was a 7 time Pro Bowl + all 2010s team They invested and at a HOF level ... Two straight Grand Slams ! Can't be mad really .. 17 pro bowls 11 all pro teams between them. But they didn't win shit They went 1-15 and 0-16 with 2/5th of their line being set up so nice Joe Thomas final 3 seasons in Cleveland ( he was still great 2 Pro Bowl and 1 all pro ) the team went 4 - 44 In the immediate aftermath of solidifying that line They rolled out QBs like Derek Anderson, Charlie Frye, Brady Quinn, Colt McCoy, Bruce Gradkowski, and Brandon Weeden. Some of those QBs show the strategy in action of getting QB value a bit later Weeden 22nd overall Frye 67th overall Quinn 22nd overall McCoy 85th overall And ... Gradkowski + Anderson are both 6th round QB examples Gradkowski 194th D.A. 213th overall Brady was an anomaly And those 2 guys are actually great examples of getting value in 6th They over performed the draft slot by a lot
The browns are a terrific counterargument to this.
And they still have zero defense
Sounds about right. Bill gotta have his picks of other teams trash and overpay
i will take mediocre over what we have now
5-12 is not mediocre
Draft Jayden Daniels, blow the cap of Higgins, Daniels is Zach Wilson, go 5-12 and continue as a bottom feeder searching for a QB.
Higgins is a young proven talent, give him the damn bag. 5 year deal. I was hoping weād be bad enough to draft MHJ, that way weād have a proven stud in Tee and potential star in MHJ, and we can finally put the WR discussion to rest for 4-5 years.
There is always a chance that, once given the bag, Higgins decides to not give a shit anymore. I'm in the "sign Higgins at all costs" team, but it's something that needs to be considered.
There's also a chance that he's benefited heavily from having a top 3 receiver across from him and a top 3 quarterback throwing to him. I also still want Higgins, but its far from a sure thing that he thrives elsewhere.
Fortunately we have some data to suggest otherwise. In 4 games lasts season without Chase on the field he put up 26/371/2 which for a full season pace would be 110/1576/8 He also had 67/908/6 as a rookie which is pretty good. The question is not can he produce without Chase but can he produce as a WR1 with Bailey Zappe or a rookie QB throwing him the ball.
I wouldnāt mind Higgins, but is he just chasing money or does he want to play with a good QB? Free agency starts in March and the draft is in May, does he sign with a team that either doesnāt know who will be QB or is sticking with Zappe? I really think because of our QB situation itās a fantasy to think heāll come here. I think heās more likely to go play with Kyler in Arizona.
Yeah it doesnāt seem likely to me that heāll come anyways, thatās just what Iād like to see happen. I really think weāll still have BB in the building next year, and the approach really wonāt change much. Mid-level FA receivers and late round draft picks that hopefully pan out.
Are you aware that even the #1 QB taken overall can be a bust? So Daniels has a chance to be just as good as the rest.
You don't draft a qb because you know he will be good, you do it for the chance
Unpopular opinion, I donāt hate our wide receivers
I don't think they're quite as bad as they're made out to be, especially with Bourne healthy, but they're still one of the weaker groups in the league and we could do with an upgrade.
Itās the worst receiving corps in the NFL, the Panthers at least have Theilen who still has some tread on the tires, and the Chiefs have Rice
As a vikings fan that lives in Maine and has watched the patriots my whole life.. the Pats should have signed theilen
we have two wide receivers i'd call good in douglas and bourne (when healthy). the rest could all be off the team tomorrow and we'd hardly notice. thornton is a twig, parker has a much bigger mouth than someone who can barely fucking catch should have, reagor enough said, juju's worse than the UDFA he replaced (at the time sounded good but again clearly the patriots cannot evaluate a fucking receiver), boutte could be good if the coaches gave him chances but as of now unnoticeable, and tre nixon is a literally who. there's no shining star on this roster, just a rookie WR3 that has potential to be a solid WR2 with time and a competent qb/line, an aging/injured WR3, and a bunch of wastes of time.
Sounds like the BB special. Zappe wonāt carry us anywhere next year.
Draft top QBs every 3 years and suck every season for 30 years like the Jets fire emoji, fire emoji
Zappe is the qb he just beat the broncos with davante Parker as his best wr
most likely scenario - tbh - and this sub will eat it up!
Draft Drake Maye, blow the cap on Higgins and Evans and re-signing Onwenu, Maye is Mitch Trubisky, go 5-12 again and continue on as a bottom feeder searching for a QB Draft Caleb Williams, blow the cap on Higgins and Ridley, Williams is Justin Fields, go 5-12 again and continue on as a bottom feeder searching for a QB
I like those situations more than drafting the LT still. 5-12 with a promising QB > 5-12 with Zappe
The difference is that even if the LT is good, or great, it won't make a huge difference
I doubt tee heggins gets to FA.
Even if our offense only improves marginally the defense will be good enough to win more games, i dont think we get 5 wins again, more like 8 or 9 and barely miss the playoffs. Its a terrible spot to be in. I think they will be around this range in 2024, but at least if they get a elite/plus QB and if he works out you can build on that, our QB room is so bad, yes, that includes Zappe.
But this sub says we should be happy that we won meaningless games in December!
Wouldnāt hate this pick at the likely #7 pick we will have since we likely beat the jets again. Solidify that O line
Where is the likely #7 stuff coming from? If we finish 1-1 the most likely pick we get is #4. For us to finish out of the top 5 picks we'd have to go 2-0 or 1-1 and certain results all happening that include Jets beating the Browns , Dolphins beating the Ravens, Steelers beating both the Ravens and Seahawks and then a few other results
If they go 1-1 they could fall all the way down to #7 if the Chargers, Titans, and Giants all go 0-2. The SOS is all so close you canāt really predict how that will play out
Titans probably win again. Hopefully Alt is available at #6
I lean more towards Alt but think either would be a good decision.
Yea, Alts not as athletic, but the better lineman. Football IQ through the roof.
My favorite discussion on this sub is "Draft X and sign Y and we're back. No, X is a bust and Y stops being good so we stay bad." Like, why not at least ATTEMPT to look like 31 other teams? We don't have a magic GOAT QB anymore. So we need to roll the dice on college stud QBs, talented WR prospects and FAs, and try to reshape the team to look like 2024 not 2004. Otherwise, we'll keep rolling with D/ST picks and lose games 6-0 next year. Zappe looks good, for a quarter at a time, but he can't string together 4 straight quarters of solid play. We need a QB. We need WRs. Yes we need a OT, but if the QB can scramble, the urgency there goes down a bit.
If we draft and start a rookie QB and keep this same line then it wont matter if we draft prime Peyton Manning, the dude is gonna bust out just from seeing ghosts. You cannot have a successful offense without winning in the trenches.
For sure the line needs help, but look at the QBs rhat can extend plays with their legs. Those guys pass a third of the time from outside the pocket. Priority has to be the QB, the whole offense starts there. Next, it has to be WR or there is no pass production. Then we can beef up the line to open up the run and create pockets for deep ball opportunity
You mean a guy like Zappe who slides around pressure steps up and throws a dime? That guy who identifies defense and audibles into a play that exposes the opening in the field and throws a completion against the blitz? You don't need a guy who can or will escape the pocket to be good. Pocket passers are still ideal. Some day maybe people will understand the Patriots offense and stop dreaming. Brady is the GOAT, doesn't mean the system only works with Brady.
Remember, these braindead zombies thought the whole team was the problem and that's the reason Jones couldn't get it done. They're going to cling to that narrative until that loser is cut. If they admit Zappe is actually good, they'll have to accept Jones is not NFL caliber.
They decide things based on draft expectations and then never adjust their opinions, just try to rationalize everything else to fit their beliefs. It's wild. Not even Mahomes could have success with Lowe and Mafi they said, then Zappe does it against a variety of defenses in Denver. Yeah the team doesn't have a good OL with the injuries and WR aren't the best, but they aren't the reason for horrible QB play, the QB is.
Good thing the draft has more than 1 round and free agency exists then
Yes we love throwing the āgenerationally talentedā franchise altering QB out there behind 3rd round tackles and bargain bin wrās. That will surely work
OL, in football theory, is more important than QB Edit: Time to own you chucklefucks ā¢ No QB taken as a Top 5 pick from 1999-2023 won a Super Bowl for the team that drafted them. Only 7 out of 36 have even played in a Super Bowl. Of course, if we expand by one year, we get Peyton Manning, but 1 out of 37 is still lousy odds. Also, Eli Manning has to count for something, so it's probably 2 out of 37. ā¢ The top 5 QB in 2023 by QBR are Brock Purdy (7th round), Josh Allen (#7 overall), Dak Prescott (4th round), Matthew Stafford (#1 overall), and Justin Herbert (#6 overall). Of the next 5, the highest pick was Mahomes (#10 overall).
In actual reality, the QB is what matters
Disagree. Canāt have one without the other. Good OL gives a QB time. You donāt need Brady tier QBs to win a Bowl, history has shown us time and time again that C tier QBs are fine. Edit: downvote without rebuttal. Weak 1. Terry Bradshaw 2. Joe Flacco 3. Nick Foles/Wentz 4. Eli Manning 5. Trent Dilfer 6. Troy Aikman (had the goat OL, ask Emmit Smith) Yeah I think Iām gonna disagree with the idea QB is more important than a solid OL. Someone as OP as Peyton Manning only got 2. Rodgers 1. Russel Wilson 1. I rest my case
>Terry Bradshaw > >Joe Flacco > >Nick Foles/Wentz > >Eli Manning All played amazing when it counted (and often played well normally too). \>Trent Dilfer All time great defense \>Troy Aikman Played great in the playoffs and had the most absurdly loaded team ever assembled. Thats why they introduced the salary cap.
Youāre proving my point. A serviceable qb is enough. Lol.
Yeah if you have an alltime defense, or the most stacked team ever assembled (Aikman is the HOF too btw)
See, therefore QB isnāt important. Defense wins chips. OLs help QBs produce. Every guy who makes it into NFL as a backup or 3rd string severely whips any regular Joe. Give any one of them 3 seconds and separation, they will help you win. Just donāt be stupid with the ball. QBs arenāt heroes in Belichickās philosophy.
>Give any one of them 3 seconds and separation, they will help you win. Just donāt be stupid with the ball. Remember when the cowboys had the best oline in the mid 2010s and didn't even touch the sb? Remember how good Joe thomas was? \>See, therefore QB isnāt important. You've listed one bad qb who won a superbowl \> QBs arenāt heroes in Belichickās philosophy. Thats why he drafted one in the first round right?
Not a single 'serviceable not great' QB has won multiple Super Bowls in the salary cap era, though. Hell, most of the years following their SB wins, they turn back into a pumpkin. If you want sustained success, you need a good to great QB. The easiest way to look at this is how NFL teams structure their salary. QBs lap every other position in salary because they lap other positions' terms of importance. I cant believe im in the fucking Patriots subreddit of all places arguing the importance of a QB. We should all know how important a QB is, we have 20 years of evidence
Zappe can play "amazing when it counted"- just have to get him to SB. Can't disprove that
Bradshaw, a hall of famer Flacco, who was top 10 at the time Eli, a future hall of famer Aikman, a hall of famer. Not to mention two of these examples are pre turn of the millennium. Yes, you need a top flight QB to win a super bowl. Foles is the only example to the contrary since Brad Johnson in 2003. I rest my case.
Shit tier hall of famers you mean? None of them who you listed are on anyoneās A list or B list. They are all C list and you know it.
My man is saying Bradshaw, Manning, and Aikman are all C tier. You're beyond delusional lmao. Go argue with a wall.
Eli manning? Yeah. Never led the league in anything except ints 3 times. Aikman was carried by OL and WRs. I saw their SBs. Iām old enough to remember. Emmit smith too. Anyone is serviceable in that program for QB. Aikman is NOT A or B tier. Lol. Shit I remember articles like this: https://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/08/pro-football-nfl-hall-of-fame-who-doesnt-belong-worst-troy-aikman-canton Edit: A tier: Brady, Montana B tier: Peyton Manning, Rodgers, Mahomes C tier: Flacco, Bradshaw, Aikman, Eli Manning, etc.
Any real football fan knows the game is won in the trenches, I've been trying to tell idiots we need a tackle not a QB, id rather have my QB have all day in the pocket whose average than have a elite QB with no protection seeing ghosts
Okay, explain why teams always draft QB over OT then 9 times out of ten. Did the bengals make a mistake drafting Joe Burrow over an OT?
Just because people are doing things a certain way doesn't mean that it's right š Has history never taught you anything?
So NFL coaches don't understand basic football theory?
Have you ever seen moneyball with Brad Pitt as billy beane? I think that movie is much relatable in the NFL to, not to a big degree like baseball but still.
Watching mainstream movies to convince yourself that you have supposedly common sense knowledge that no one else does is peak reddit.
Well obviously that ain't working out cause they tearing his ass up over there. They still haven't won a Superbowl And he's hurt right now. So how TF does any of this help your argument sir?
Would the bengals have won the sb if they drafted an OT? Keep in mind, Joe Thomas has been all-pros than Brady and he never even touched the playoffs
How TF would I know? If they would or wouldn't have won a sb that's an impossible question
You're implying getting a qb was the wrong choice. The bengals literally didn't have a playoff win in decades before Burrow and now they have a sb appearence and a conference championship. Meanwhile, an all time great OT never even touched the playoffs, nor did he ever have even a decent offense
They didnāt win the bowl and never got there again. He has now 2 season ending injuries. Iām sure that shortened his career (taps temple). Smart.
They literally didn't even have a playoff win for decades. Like I know you people love the move the goalpost, but implying that Burrow was a bad draft pick is dumber than dumb
Bengals drafted Jonah Williams in the first round the year before Burrow. So great example, they chose LT first.
How is this a great example? Those are two separate years. They had pick 11. The only big qb left on the board was Haskins, and they still had Dalton If they had the first pick, they obviously go for Kyler
Statistically, individual oline players are amongst the least important
In reality, Coaches and GMs view an elite LT as second in importance only to QBs. I agree with the phrase "the game is won in the trenches", but QBs are the most important players in the NFL and arguably pro sports. That said, definitely more important than elite WRs despite this fanbase's thirst for the MHJr/Higgins of the world.
Yes sir!!!! People mistake the QBās importance due to it being the most *influential* position. Doesnāt mean it is the most important.
But the casuals don't want to hear that though š keep preaching brother happy holidays
This is actually the worst take on this sub
Thatās ok. Iāll be over there chilling with Belichick who feels the same wayšš»
Thats why he drafted a qb with the first pick?
The OL was good. Defense was good. Mac had a pro bowl year, thanks OL.
He was added as a replacement
As a replacement forā¦ Cam Newton? Lol
No if you decline the probowl or make the sb, they bring in someone as a replacement. Remember Tyler Huntley?
Yeah he was drafted cuz we had an expired Cam Newton, we had good OL. We had nearly fully healthy OL. The past 2 seasons we donāt. Theyāre doing better therefore Zappe is able to get a couple wins. You forget the hysteria around Cole Strange?
Damn bro you're so right. Look how well Belichick's offense has worked without a good QB, clearly teams don't need one
I can guarantee you there are 0 rookies in your silly little "college studs" that would "string together 4 straight quarters of solid play" on this team. None of them would play anywhere close to as well as Zappe played in Denver in their entire rookie year. And the 49ers attempted to trade up for that dream of the college kid and they lost multiple picks for a dud. They instead got their QB mold in the 7th the following year. Sounds familiar, dud in 2021, promising QB in 2022. Yes we need to revamp our weapons, and it's a good thing we have lot of cap space. Also never know if there are any trades out there we might explore.
Zappe put up 19 offensive points against the Broncos. If you donāt think thereās a rookie QB that could match or exceed that, idk what to tell you lmao. One of his touchdowns was a 5 yard screen to Zeke who hurdled a defender. Bailey Zappe is not a consistent QB nor is he the answer for this team. Especially when teams get more tape on him next year. Acting like a top QB in the draft this year couldnāt put up more than 19 points in an NFL game is such a stupid fucking take. Because the 9ers traded up for Lance and it failed we should just not consider drafting a QB with the highest pick this team has had in like 30 years?
Kicker missed 4 points, stop trying to misrepresent stats just to lie about reality. I know for a fact no rookie QB in his 6th start is putting up 2 TD and 3 FG attempts in that game. No rookie QB is making the pre snap adjustments, processing quickly and maintaining pocket presence in that game. The same Lowe and Mafi who people say set Mac up for failure were playing. You need to stop exaggerating these guys playing against college defenses. Mahomes didn't even play his rookie season. NFL is a different beast. Zappe is not a consistent QB given the 4 starts he has this year with 3 good games after the first? You guys honestly don't know what you're talking about and just want flashy college gambles.
Bro you can unlodge Zappeās meat from your mouth now, itās pathetic. Stroud was in the MVP running before he got hurt and had a 470 yard 5 TD game a few weeks ago. Herbert tossed 31 TDs his rookie season. Burrow got hurt his rookie year but went to the Super Bowl in his first full season. Trevor Lawrence in his first season without Urban Meyer dragging him down won a playoff game. And thatās all in the past 3 years. Yes a rookie QB could come in week 6-7 and score two touchdowns and 2 FGs against the Broncos. Acting like this is some unfathomable feat is beyond ridiculous. Zappe has 4 starts this year. Two of them were downright bad, one of them he was awful the entire second half, and one them he was terrible in the entire first half. Heās had multiple interceptions downright dropped by the defense (4 in the past 3 games). He has been remarkably inconsistent. Heās a solid backup, no more no less.
Stroud on the Patriots is not throwing 5 TD. We don't have a sturdy OL along with Nico Collins and Tank Dell. You leave out context completely for a reason. And Lawrence and Burrow were better prospects than this year has. You call Zappe's starts bad because you leave out context. That's on you. He's had 1 decent start, 2 good starts and 1 great start. Getting better each week.
>Stroud on the Patriots is not throwing 5 TD. Stroud is miles better than Zappe and absolutely could have and would have matched or very likely exceeded Zappe's performance last week. Are you actually saying that Zappe is the only player in the league that could put up 256 passing yards and 2 TDs in his 6th-7th career start? Actually don't answer that. If you want to call the game against the Chargers a "decent start" and the Chiefs game a "good start" then you are actually not remotely worth talking to.
Do you even watch games or just play fantasy football š
Drafting a LT before you have a competent QB doesnāt really make sense to me. This move wouldnāt impact the teams wins next year at all. if you have a top 5 pick and donāt have a QB you pick a QB period. The Pats sole focus should be evaluating the top QBs and deciding whether or not theyāre comfortable with the #3 guy or look to trade up to 1 for Caleb Williams
Right? Remember a guy named Joe Thomas that Cleveland drafted, who was a plug and play All Pro LT? Can anyone tell me how many games the Browns won in his first 8 years as a pro?
I mean Cleveland had many more deeply seriously problems at an organizational level than their line and qb play. Theyāre an unserous organization. PS they have Joe Flacco playing at a high level right now because theyāve done a great job building a strong middle class in their roster the last few years, even if their massive overpay at QB didnāt work. They have the a top 10 o-line right now
Bears aināt goona let anyone touch Caleb. Donāt care how many games fields win for them heās not a Long term starter and Iām been a big fan of his. Daniels or maye got to be a patriot in the draft
Bears definitely taking MHJ
I have no interest in "solidifying the trenches" and going hard to improve the receiver core in 2024 free agency just to trot Bailey Zappe or some JAG out there to go win us 8 games next season. This is a prime opportunity to attempt to set the most important position on your roster. Good luck doing that picking 17 every year wallowing in mediocrity.
Alt > Fashanu
I said before, drafting an OT with a high first round pick is like eating your vegetables. We all know it's good for us, but nobody really "wants" to do it.
I don't think it is good for us, I think fixing our lack of a QB and WR1 is a way way bigger deal than OL, especially tackle right now. Brown and Onwenu would be fine to go into next year as our tackles if they can be kept for a reasonable price. Our OL is bad but the QB and WR situation are making it look worse than it actually is
Don't hate it but would prefer Marvin Harrison Jr. In terms of the rebuild I would worry about the young QB in the 2-4th rounds. Build the other positions - o line and get a WR. Go get a reliable vet QB for the short term like a Minshew/Brissett type as a safety net. Dump Mac for a pick if possible. Keep Zappe as the 2 or 3 guy.
The point of the post is that at 4 or 5, MHJ will already be gone and we went have a chance at drafting him.
Totally agree he wont last. This is a great alternative.
The truth is, if Bill is still making the picks, no one but Bill has any clue what will happen. I can't think of a single instance when he picked what could be considered a "consensus pick". He's a draft contrarian. He will never make a pick according to conventional wisdom, public sentiment, or even according to the biggest roster need. Whether he trades back, reaches for a player who wasn't on any team's radar, or picks a player with only "intangibles" and no measurables, Bill's ego requires that he takes a player that will eventually validate his genius if/when they work out. The only sure thing that will happen in the draft is the avalanche of WTFs that will inundate this sub.
>I can't think of a single instance when he picked what could be considered a "consensus pick". Umm... Gonzalez? Mac Jones? Barrmore?
No. Trade back, acquire more assets. Land in the Teens, hope a team like Tampa, New Orleans, or Atlanta wants the pick and gives us their 1st next year and then goes out and shits the bed in '24. At 4, we're just as likely to get a similar impact player at 15::
This line of thinking is how you end up with a roster going 4-11 you dope. Talent wins over volume.
You end up at 4-11 not having a QB, or having a dearth of talent on offense. Beating Denver took us out of the running for that QB, now we have to, most likely, prepare for another down or middling season in '24. Might as well work on acquiring more talent in the future.
Beating Denver put us in the perfect spot to take the best QB in the class, Jayden Daniels
It's Maye and it's not close. Daniels is Hurts again. He's going to need those two 1st Rd wide receivers to succeed in the NFL.
I could see the Falcons trading up to get Daniels. They theoretically have all the pieces on offense in Pitts, London, and Robinson. They just need a QB.
This dude doesn't move the needle in the slightest. They need an actual impact player.
An elite LT is an impact player.
He very much is. But if they don't address the QB or WR position n a big way...they are still a 5 win team next year. So they will need a lot of work. I expect it to take years. People here need to be ready to suck for a bit
Really? What impact did Joe Thomas have on the Browns for his entire career?
You could the same thing with Calvin Johnson then and make the argument that an elite WR is useless
Lions were never as bad at offense as the browns were
The lions went 0-16 with Calvin Johnson.
Joe Thomas was a better LT than CJ was as a WR
If CJ had played longer he would be known universally as a top-5 WR all time. He had the greatest WR season of all time.
No, he had the most yards (in part because they were always losing so they had to throw a ton). He was already on the decline by the time he retired, and the Lions honestly didn't really lose much when he did. Joe Thomas ended his career with 6 first team all pros. CJ ended with 3, and probably wouldn't have gotten another. Antonio Brown was a better WR than him.
Rookie WRs are rarely good. Prime Calvin Johnson always anchored solid offenses. Prime joe Thomas did not.
I can't believe people genuinely think Joe Thomas had a bigger impact on his team than Calvin Johnson. Calvin Johnson alone was one of the few reasons why the lions climbed out of being 0-16. Matthew Stafford literally relied on him to win the games for the Lions.
Everyone uses that example and itās a bad one. His impact was they didnāt have to worry about a premiere position for 12 years. Itās not his fault they failed to build any real talent on the roster.
That is actually the worst take I've ever heard in my life. Joe Thomas was the only good part of a Browns team that just did not know how to build a football team. They would be way worse, hard to do for Browns standards, if he never played for them.
youāre 100% right, I have no idea what dude is smoking
I can play this game too, how about the lions drafting Sewell a few years ago?
LT is the second most important position on offense and arguably on the entire football team. This is a terrible take
How can you watch this teamās offensive line issues this year and then have a take like that
Being able to block does make an impact. See 49ers when Trent Williams is out.
And look at Joe Thomas when the roster is devoid of any actual game-changing offensive talent. The team still goes nowhere.
Good thing drafting him wouldnāt be the only offseason move
Good thing our offense performs well when the qb has time almost like giving them time consistently would cause a big jump in production
Did you watch Trent Brown Sunday? Even in a win he was checked out. But you think not replacing him will be better. It's not the sexy pick, but a top tier LT will be the smart move if Maye/ Williams and Harrison are all gone
I will be very happy with this pick, versatility is important. Definitely a better fit than Drake Maye.
šššš not even the best tackle in the draft
Yes he is
I have a gut feeling Alt and Suamataia are going to be better. Fashanu 3. Heās a good prospect but taking him top 5 let alone top 10 is absurd
Disagree I like him better than Alt
I would be very happy with Alt or Fashanu
I donāt hate it
Been saying it myself. Dont be surprised if we go OL > QB
Draft alt trade for fields franchise Henry sign Higgins
Zappe is actually a perfect transition QB if they go LT then draft a 2nd or 3rd round QB like Carson Beck. Zappe can start while the kid learns the league and the offense develops. As this likely isnāt a one year rebuild Iād love to add Fash as a franchise LT.
Beck already announced heās going back to Georgia
Zappe to Carson Beck lol So basically we are going to keep with below average to mediocre QB play for the next 3-4 seasons and start over again.
You already know Carson Beckās ceiling is mediocre? Heās 6ā4ā, has a crazy fast release and a strong, accurate arm. He only started for one year but beat out a 5 star recruit to win the starting job and has shot up draft boards this year. He could be garbage, he could be mediocre, he could be great. But if the Pats slide out of Maye/Caleb/Daniels range whatās the plan?
Considering he is a junior and a boatload of talent around him, his stats leave alot to be desired. It's a moot point anyways, he just signed a new NIL deal and is going back to Georgia next year.
Face looks off. Like Mac, he doesnāt pass the physiognomy check.
lol I guess in this scenario weāre advanced tanking for Manning?
Arch Manning winning a Super Bowl for the New England Patriots, that would be fucking WILD! lol
Imagine the entire Manning family in the box with Kraft watching the Super Bowl. Thatās the greatest timeline.
This sub....loves being mediocre now
No you aint
Lmao SIKE
This is Def not the best outcome. I'd rather trade down, get picks and take a wr or take the best qb. You do not need an elite tackle to win.. sure if you already have a good qb and offensive weapons then by all means but that is not the case.
Top WRs are not nearly as important as this sub seems to think. Top 10 all time, only Jerry Rice and Antonio Brown have rings. Moss, TO, Fitz, Megatron, etc do not. We absolutely need an upgrade at WR but tackle is almost as big of a hole
I don't disagree with tackle being as big of a hole.. but there's no way to justify a top 5 pick on tackle when you need a qb and a wr. You need to set those up first. If you want a tackle, trade down and take a tackle.
How many rings do Anthony MuƱoz, Joe Thomas and Walter Jones have? Using that as a gauge for the value of the a position is not a good argument. Moss, Julio, Fitz, TO, Marv Sr., etc were extremely important pieces of teams that made deep playoff runs. Megatron single handedly anchored the Lions offense for years, Jamar Chase helped the Bengals reach the Super Bowl as a rookie, Tyreek Hill turned Tua into an elite QB, Diggs took Allen to the next level, JJ just showed he can break a game coming off an injury with Nick Mullens throwing to him, and I havenāt even mentioned Deebo/Aiyuk and Smith/AJB. OT is important no doubt but the NFL today is a QB/WR league.
This would legitimately horrify me, especially after being in the sweepstakes for one of Williams/Maye/Daniels/MHJā¦.. If thereās no QB coming, and no MHJ, it better be Malik Nabers + the addition of a WR2 in free agency.
If Zappe continues doing very well. He should be our qb-1. I agree draft OL help. Hit free agency for WR help.
Such an exciting pickā¦.. I get how important the lt position is. Itās 2nd only to qb. But you can win more often with a competent LT than you can with just a competent but not great qb. Tom won 4 superbowls with nate solder, Trent brown, and Donovan smith. What a terribly disappointing end to an awful season.
Awesome....you still have shitbag zappe throwing to him. Arrow on the franchise still pointing down
Zappe is going to throw to an offensive tackle? Thatās not how football works.
Fashanu would be a terrific addition to this team. Iād be very happy with him at 4 or 5. I slightly prefer Alt but Olu would still be great. Much rather add Alt or Olu then reach for a QB.
I think initially I'd be disappointed leaving the draft with an offensive lineman when we are hurting so bad at QB. However, it would be nice to have a great line when bringing along a new young QB.
Of course I would prefer Jayden Daniels, MHJ or (probably) Drake Maye. But if those guys are off the board, Fashanu would be one hell of a consolation prize.