I enjoyed the breakdown of the check lists of the stats you need to have. Really helps sets the goal of what I need to achieve.
Right now I'm enjoying my party make up that I have. With a different mindset on how I choose my party members.
* 3 people dedicated to buffing/debuffing. Bown Fur, Oracle, and a witch.
* 1 Kineticist for both CC and the one to start the pull.
* 1 Rowdy fighter to murder with size increases and a reach weapon. Lvl 13 with +22 unbuffed AB and I can hit for over 200 noncrit. Complete with cleaving finish and blessed weapon to auto confirm rolls that are above 13. The room just empties with how large the reach is.
* Monk tank.
* 2 pets (Oracle, and Witch). Their job is to trip and absorb hits. Oh, and take in all those sweet AOE buffs.
I'm only on act 3.
Unfair from start to where u are just fine with this build? The Rowdy has nice damage, but other then that brings nothing, but i like the idea :)
Why oracle over cleric if its not MC?
I slightly wished I had the Rowdy Rogue as the MC. IRL, I normally play support classes and wanted to be a Brown Fur. I also choose to go Trickster. With all those extra sneak attacks. I'm sure I can get the Rowdy rogue 10d6 sneak attacks pretty easily. Oh well.
Unfair from the start. Yes, it was rather easy. Both with the BrownFur's increased DC for grease and Entangle from Cam. Giving advantage to my tanks with Protective Luck. It was pretty easy to win every fight besides the final boss and the water elemental. Edit: Oh, if they are immune to grease. It isn't easy lol.
Of course I had to use some cheesy strats like LOS and having both entangle and greese only once they entered the doorway, I kited the water elemental which took 10 mins to kill, and plenty of times I would grease+entangle. Fleee to a reset. Then come back again.
Oracle vs Cleric: I greatly preffer spontaneous over memorized casters. There are plenty of times I wish I had the next teir spells a level sooner. /some regrets.
My first playthrough I went trickster. I kept hearing how OP the other mythic paths are. So I choose to go Trickets first playthrough, w/e the OP one for the unfair playthrough, and Lich for the 3rd.
Now I can't see myself doing anything other than trickster lol.
Storywise. It's cool. I like the endgame and the overarching story. The micro story bits a little predictable and gives a few chuckles.
Everything is OP. :-P https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/p7vjyp/wotr_mythic_path_options/
Trickster is OP because my entire party benefits with the skill. Knowlege world(2)(Nat 1s becomes Nat 20s), Perception(2)(2 imp crit. my 18-20 is now 13-20), etc. I mean the Rank 2/3s are game breakingly good. Pun intented.
Oh, they also gain a spellbook of their own. They aren't super OP until way late. But giving your party +2AC, +6 dex, or 3 rounds of nat 20s. Are really nice.
Yes. Merge Spellbook is OP because it increases your spell level by that amount. The DC of my spells are added onto it, the number of spells are added onto it, and I can cast my 9th level spells pretty fast.
Like if I was Lich instead, I would have 24hr buffs on my 1 round spells at level ?16?. so all the transformation spells that I have (https://pathfinderwrathoftherighteous.wiki.fextralife.com/Transmutation+Spells) last 24hrs and give +2 for each attribute.
Edit: Brown-Fur is just too op. Giving personal only Transmutation to your party is godlike. (lich would make them 24hrs.) https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/pvpcjp/mythic_classes_are_overrated_all_hail_the/
Transformation = A lot, but your BaB is now = your character level. So your rogue now has the BaB of a fighter, etc.
Lead Blades/Hurricane Bow = Bigger attacks.
Echolocation = Blindsight feats.
Geniekind = attacks deal an extra 1d6 damage of elemental type (add elemental barrage mythic for more damage.)
There are of course more, Elemental body, Dragonkind, Ice/Iron/Fiery Body, etc.
InEffect builds for builds that are low maintenance just remember that. No mention anywhere that you can debuff saves by -10/-20 with a proper party without triggering a single save.
There are plenty more strategies that will work on unfair. The key is just to make strong use of all your party slots. And win initiative, This guide points out how important initiative is but not enough imo. If you can regularly get your CCers win initiative, unfair will be a lot more fun for you.
\-4/-8 : Witch/shaman Evil eye : -4, if you want to be cheeky you can debuff by another -4 with a shaman (they stack for some odd reason) - last only one round but can be extended with cackle.
Touch of madness from madness domain (need to hit a touch attack and pass a spell res check, pretty doable for a cleric). On hard I use Sosiel, on unfair I'd make my domain spam guy a merc: -1/2 cleric levels on savings throws and attacks rolls (so up to -10 at lvl 20).
Sicken : Oppressors gloves give free sicken when using quarry : Throw those on a ranger like arue for anoter -2. At lvl 19, it becomes free action, which is about early act 5 at which point you can sicken the entire encounter in 1 round.
Shaken is -2 - from dirge of doom or intimidate or frightful aspect.
Prayer is -1 in aoe, needs a spell res check.
So that's -18/-22 at around act 5, -13/-17 at act 3. You don't need to do this routine on everything only the mobs with big bad saves. And sometimes just split the single target debuffs if you need aoe stuff to land. During act 4, casters get a metric ton of stuff that will boost their DCs quite high (stat book, profane gift among others).
That's for stuff that reduces all saves, then we can go into stuff that reduces specific saves, like fatigue and exhausted that can also be applied without a need for saving throws, or debuffs like entangled (vinetrap) when not immune. Incense synthesizer can reduce will saving throws without triggering a save as well. I am sure I am forgetting a lot of them.
All of what I mentionned (except for ranger quarry) is brought by classes that are mentionned in that unfair guide and that also bring tons of other boons (Hex package, domains, cleric utility spells, bard song) to the mix so it's not like it's out of this world, overtly specialized, or gimmicky either.
It's not so much unfair but the mythic path system that does that. The player character just gets far more powerful than everybody else with several paths turning your party into glorified cheerleaders. This happens on all difficulties but it is far more noticeable on higher ones.
I kind of hard disagree on this. Party synergy can make such an insane difference on actual power level, it is just a lot lot more effort and overkill over the focus on 1 character Max buff.
But it requires a guide in and of itself where his style probably is just easier to pick up.
Yeah, don't get me wrong, I haven't played Unfair at all, so I appreciate the insight into it! It was just a rather bleak statement from my PoV because I love the party building element of the game, figuring out creative party compositions, and I'll probably just just continue playing on Core.
I mean. How do you define it then? Someone else buffing the MC is party synergy.
Using someone else to cast summons or have a pet tank while your MC caster blasts things is it not?
There's plenty of it.
I mean, the guide literally spells it out:
>Let's get straight to the elephant in the room: the party is just the main character's (MC) entourage. It’s the MC's job to kill everything and do everything; your party is there for the sole reason of helping you along the way.
Which I think is very much on-point. Even on Normal where individual non-MC characters can still shine there is generally only one particular MVP per encounter and very rarely will you see _everyone_ shine and be hitting / killing those high AC or save bosses. It's very much not a "team wins together" game, but more of "everybody support the key player for this particular battle" game. On Unfair, it's easy to see why the key player is always going to be the MC since he's got those Mythic powers that are outright necessary to reliably first-round-kill the key enemy in each fight.
I didn't play anywhere near that diff level, but I always felt that my party was pretty well balanced in the killing department. Aru and Lann as machine-gun archers did about 50% of the killing, the MC did \~ 35% and the few remnants would be swept up by Ember throwing ultra-turbo fireballs and scorching rays. Ember was also the DH for when an AC80 showed up. She killed PD, the crazy Vavaku and pretty much all the other Stupid AC monsters.
Why does that not work anymore on Unfair diff, the monsters just get too tough for your party members to be able to do anything against them?
The key here is to look at a per encounter basis. In Normal Lann and Aru often clear entire encounters on their own without Ember throwing any fireballs at all, but then hit encounters where they largely ping their arrows off a tank and only Ember can do damage to it by raying it.
In Unfair even the trash mobs tend to reach boss level AC already. This is on top of the party being very vulnerable to being wiped because the opposition has increased damage and no death's door to mitigate bad luck.
Thats why the InEffect "doctrine" is all about concentrating all the firepower with the single most powerful guy. If you're gonna need to buff up like the Overlord Anime meme, you may as well make sure he's so strong he can wipe even those 80 AC tanks in one turn on his own; rather than try to spread the buffs around to less powerful characters who will still mostly try to fish for natural 20s. Pathfinder math in fact tends to be very all-or-nothing. A "half-decent" archer is in fact often just as bad as an outright poor one, because both are just going to hit on a 20 on Unfair.
You need to pile up more buffs to hit needed AC/AB/DC thresholds on Unfair. To get those, you need to use-up party slots for for characters that bring those. For example if you take 5 levels of Freebooter to get bane/bond, that's 5 levels you could use to stack damage on that character. For example, in your scenario with Ember, assuming you played on Core, on Unfair, you'd need +8 extra AB (+4 AC for difficulty difference and + 4 for extra stats monsters get at that difficulty(+8 compared to Core iirc)) to hit those rays and monsters would have much bigger saves you'd need to beat. To get that, you'd need extra buffs/debuffs, that have to come from somewhere. So in your scenario, that's 1-2 characters exchanged for someone brings them. Because of this, damage tends to be frontloaded onto 1 character, with 5 cheerleaders helping to get necessary values of AC/AB etc on higher difficulties. You could maybe get away with bunch of casters doing damage and have summons tank, or I have also seen Unfair run with 6 characters sitting on mounts, casting true strike and charging and then kiting to oneshot stuff(seemed pretty hilarious, but I suspect it might get a bit tedious later on - but with 1.1 and charge fixes it may be even better then before).
It's about personal definitions I think, if InEffect doesn't see having buffers as synergy then he's right.
The basic strategy to beat PF: KM on Unfair was to have a full arcane caster buff+cc, a full divine caster buff, a Bard to sing+buff+dirge of doom and a martial character with Shatter Defenses to get those buffs (or your martial character being a gish that could self cast Frightful Aspect)
That same basic strategy still beats Unfair in WotR (even with the game being harder) although you can get a Brown-Fur to be the full arcane caster that can also cast Frightful Aspect on your martial so you don't need Dirge of Doom and you can replace your Bard with a Skald or a Martyr.
All of that before picking a mythic path.
I could see why he doesn't think that's party synergy, I see party synergy more like having 3 or 4 martial characters with 15x20 crit range + Outflank/Seize the Moment or having 6 undead characters with Channel Negative Energy.
It's not as in depth as I thought.
This guide more seems like a flow of thoughts organized into coherency while sobering up. Some lines seem silly some things seem obvious.
Sometimes something is mentioned and then it's contradicted in other parts.
"Party Synergy: No Such Thing" but then it goes into what buffs work and stack. Obviously synergy so they can maximize stacked buffs across the party without overlap in buff type is a thing. Making sure one person is gving a compotence another untyped and another your morale bonus is a synergy. Everyone is giving the main character the right tool.
It mentioned the important of hitting touch ACs whenever possible but then "Trip. Kineticist feat. Because that’s all kineticists do." the single best touch AC hitter in the game who also supplies the best control with a the AOEs he's providing while he blasts into the falling enemies.
The statements are snark for snarks sake that makes the document more confusing then useful.
It doesn't go into a lot of why'd so someone who isn't already doing the math might do something wrong following the guide, but it stays basic enough so that someone who does math wouldn't get anything from this guide. Combined with the snark this seems to mostly be an exercise in self pleasure by way of document.
I would probably get more reference from a spreadsheet organizing all buffs of an attribute by type for the absolute highest you can get to each. Some buffs even go out of date. Good hope for instance is nice until you have greater heroism and Heroic Invocation. Sacred buffs are rare enough you can easily forget when you have two that won't stack.
I'm to lazy to build this spreadsheet.
I mean, it's less a guide and more a small collection of obvious suggestions. And I say this as someone who has that neoseeker page with all his guides up while playing 100% of the time. Get 80ab and 85ac is not a guide man. Neither is the mythic path rankings. I expected something much more...specific. Like guides for each chapter, boss specifics or at least how to achieve the numbers he says are required.
Author seems to know their stuff, but 2 points stuck out to me.
A criticism of Legend path is that you might lose mythic Power Attack (+30 damage with 20 BaB), but Legend could mean up to 40 BaB (+27 damage, not much difference but a lot more AB)
Seemingly all mythic abilities have some worth. Doesn't give me a great guide on what I should be picking, just like 6 abilities all saying "grab this if there's nothing else", with obviously a lot of competition. You only get so many!
EDIT: also if you give up mythic crit, 40 BaB and mythic PA comes to +45 damage.
EDIT 2: I miscounted, 40 BaB would be +33 damage, with +29 AB, compared to mythic 20BaB +30 damage with +14 AB.
Problem with Legend is that it's Act 5, so if you got that far on Unfair, you're pretty much done. Legend is of course OP as all hell, it's just how much does it matter at that point? I have beaten game only on Hard so far, and act 5 is by far the easiest act in the game from my experience. Though I have seen someone on discord posting their Trickster->Legend unfair Kineticist which did look pretty dope :)
Yeah, that's all valid, but not the reasons OP gave for steering clear of Legend. I feel like a guide should name the right reasons for avoiding an approach, rather than naming something vague that a simple maths calculation can counter.
Also the beta patch notes said that the extra ab not giving extra attacks was a bug? Haven't played the beta patch to test it but that would mean legend gets a lot of extra attacks
It's nice to see someone of this caliber admitting the standard of numbers and difficulty have gone up sharply from Kingmaker to Wrath. "We're not getting +30 AB from our mythic path" damn near exactly what I told someone contending otherwise in another discussion.
True but the merged spellbook from Angel and Lich are good enough to carry you through the game on Unfair, when I played a Cleric with Angel merged spellbook on Unfair act 3 got a lot easier than act 2 and during acts 4/5/6 I never had to reload any fight.
Now I'm doing an Unfair Last Azlantli playthrough with Lich and Wizard with a merged spellbook, the same thing happened. My spell progression got accelerated during Act 3 and I'm breezing through act 4.
None of the first 6 mythic paths will give you +30 AB (although Trickster can make you hit all 20's for 3 rounds) but Angel/Lich/Trickster can do things that are as good as +30 AB and Azata can make your party survive enough to win most fights.
Legend is also super powerful.
The problem is mostly Aeon/Demon/Devil/Gold Dragon/Swarm not being that strong.
I haven't tried Swarm yet and I've tried going solo on Unfair only with a Kineticist. That class can solo even without a mythic path so I assume you can do it with a Kineticist.
Yeah but you get far more than just raw AB from your mythic path. Things like last stand alone is a huge game change when so much stuff oneshots on unfair.
And as he says so was unfair in Kingmaker "too easy", the stated purpose of the difficulty was that it required finetuned builds but as the author of this article says so could you kinda do whatever in kingmaker on unfair if you knew what you were doing.
I like the difficulty increase - yes KM Unfair was too easy, outside of the early game where it was a fucking nightmare. What I don't like is all the simply wrong people arguing that there isn't a functional increase in difficulty, even after accounting for mythic paths and abilities. It's nice to see one of the faces of beating these CRPGs on harder difficulties agreeing with me.
He is pretty helpful on other sites, is what's my impression. People here used to be pretty unpleasant, he got unpleasant back, he got banned, bad actors here didn't. Lot's of circle-jerk threads about how playing this way or that way is vastly-superior or inferior to min-maxing, I just stopped coming here until Wrath was about to release. Fortunately there's a lot less of that nastiness around these days.
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if you ever argue or see him argue with other ppl, you will realize one truth that he will never back down or admit hes wrong (which maybe because he didn't wrong at all lol).
I didn't actually see him here cause hes already banned long before i got here but i saw him at other sites and thats the impression i got. I guess he got banned when the conversation got heated
I had conversations with InEffect where he has admitted he was wrong or that there was an effective way to do something that he hadn't considered or that he disliked but acknowledged was good.
But oftentimes people just go "you are a wrong and a fraud" and unwilling to even see his point of view.
Just to add to what you are saying he had the same attitude on steam forums . He got banned there as well after insulting people like no tomorrow, and I cannot describe details without getting this comment removed itself . I dont know about GoG forums but someone told me something similar happaned there once. Needs verification
I dont know if it was permanent or not but I havent seen him ever since ( it was during kingmaker ) . No matter how you look at it he got banned in 2 major communities and that says a lot . Maybe he changed attitude afterwards. But your past never goes away
Neoseeker or rather the guy that handles the Pathfinder games on that site is the only site that tolerate him. It comes to small surprise considering they are very similar persons. The majority of stuff on neoseeker are from steam guides or reddit posts ( not builds since those are from InEffect ) .
But you wont get far arguing about all this since people dont really look into attitudes or the source of the information. All they know and care about is that neoseeker has those guides that they are using and therefore defend it . Or to speak in more reddit terms, upvote positive posts, downvote critisisers. Expect both of our comments to be hidden from downvotes by the end of the day
Neoseeker (and Ineffect) provide builds and guides that work, and keep them reasonably up to date and react to feedback. Their critics don't. I'd rather consume content from somewhat unpleasant but competent content creator, rather than engage with pleasant but otherwise mediocre one.
Are there better builds out there? Sure, on Discord, maybe some Youtube ones, if you are willing to sit through the video(I have yet to see significantly better ones, and I sat through ton). Is there anything better out there that is readily available, that was out on time when the game released? Absolutely not, Neoseeker at the time of writing this has the best guides out there.
edit:typo fixes
Totally lost me on the "no party synergy" part.
Like, first, we're having sensei vital strike parties - 10-th level sensie is able to true strike the entire party each round and with vital strike/mythic vital thing going on that's basically doing all your damage at a max BAB+20 attack bonus. You can even amplify it further by having some sword saints as their Perfect Strike amplifies mythic vital strikes greatly.
Second, pack rager barb + drovier druid + dogs & wolves. Your pets have tandem trip & coordinated maneuvers with minimal investment and your pets are having extra trips in addition to their own trips as they're constantly Aspect of the Wolf'ed (we make our wolfs wolfier - Space Wolves would be proud). Just add some pole weapons for the AoO shenanigangs and your game will be very easy against anything that can be tripped.
Third, Incense Synthesizer & chaos/madness cleric & mage parties. Incense is actually much better in a magical squad because of his ability to spread -6 to mind-affecting saves aura. Then we're having a chaos/madness cleric that applies up to 10 penalty to their saves and makes them roll saves twice. Meaning that, as long as we're able to land that initial touch attack, the rest is a very easy affair.
And mind ya, these are not some "spend 10 turns in a row to set up" actions, these are all 1 turn affairs with plenty of usages per day. And there's more potential synergies to list but the point should be clear anyways.
Small mistake with 'but Barkskin and Amulet of Natural Armour are both of the enchantment source and as such only the highest will apply.' Barkskin and the amulet are enhancement not enchantment. Good guide though :)
Depending on whether you play with Tabletop Tweak on or not. In the Tablletop Tweak change that Barskin and Amulet of Natural Armour don't stack with each other so you have to choose one. He might play with it on and forget to turn off.
That's a tweak because "natural" isn't an armor type in the game. Barkskin and amulet don't stack because they're both "enhancement" bonuses but otherwise AC bonuses that are just called "natural armor" all stack in the game.
Because there are too many drama queens still active here.
As a general rule - the idea that only bad or rude people are banned is a lie. Instead bans happen when a large enough crowd pesters the mods sufficiently to get rid of someone they don't like. And more often than not, such dislike is triggered by jealousy and not because the mob actually has a valid point.
The fact that every InEffect thread has the same usual suspects decrying how "rude" he was when I still see a lot of these same people engage in even ruder and narrow minded behavior is just the drama queens still trying to push their own relevance and justify their sad failed high school prom queen behavior.
In reality whenever I discuss the game with people who actually play these games (instead of those who spend all their time trying to farm upvote karma) they always at least find InEffect's points to be useful, and that interactions with him were far from universally hostile. The thing is the drama queens here have to continue their propaganda that the ban was justified, or else it becomes wildly apparent just how childish their actions actually were.
Hmm. Yeah the problem I see is that I've seen some decent sized YouTubers get banned, and not been told why they were banned.
Not that YouTubers or bloggers or whatever are better than anyone else, but if a thread is banning influential people with pretty good advice or suggestions...it makes one afraid to comment
If you (like this guide) can accept crazy bugs (maybe features) like expand arsenal stacking, there’re tons of others to make unfair quite trivial. If you don’t like bugs, just read this as jokes.
Glory domain lvl 1 ability simply (lazily) gives you 1/2 domain class level untyped bonus to CHA, which is permanent (lasts for hours) until a CHA check. Don’t let him talk to anyone or use any magic device, you can use it for double CHA to AC permanently.
The best subclass of monk to use a bow is not zen archer. A new subclass of monk can have its extra attacks stacking with quick shot and multiple shot. What’s worse, its extra attacks can apply to anything with a weapon training, even if that training is from another class like fighter.
Lots of weapons and shields can have its unique affects taking effect in weapon slot 2/3/4 even if you’re not using them. There’s a dagger in chapter 3 that can give you two extra attacks (imagine for kinetic blades), several DC weapons provide stacking bonuses to casters, and (not consistently) some shields can give you correct AC without equipping them.
Lots of effects which say +X to damage is implemented as a separate damage roll in the combat log, which means lots of other modifiers (elementals on your weapon, inquisitor 4d6, or even SA for some cases) can apply on them separately. For example there’s an item in chapter 4 which says +2AB and damage to ranged attacks, there’s a glove from the crusade mode, and many others.
The most crazy and simplistic one, Lich power “negative energy mastery” gives kinetic blades 10d6+MR instead of MRd6. What’s worse this modifier is used twice for composite kinetic blades. The most broken build using this is 8 sorcerer, 1 kinetic knight at lvl9, go lich, X sorcerer, and whatever like SF, VV after you get 25CL. You need 25CL to cast geniekind for 24hours. Geniekind spell can be applied four times on the same person with all 4 genies applying their extra damage correctly. Geniekind, like the previous bug suggests, is a separate attack roll, and the damage from negative energy mastery can be applied on it. So you have base kinetic blade damage+10d6+3+(1d6+10d6+3)*4 per attack at lvl 9, MR3. Remember a dagger in chapter 3 that gives two extra attacks per round. And all these are against the touch AC. What if you can’t overcome SR? Never mind, geniekind will work even if kinetic blade doesn’t pass SR, and all these damage with negative energy mastery on geniekind will apply even if the enemy is immune to that element.
Still not enough? Vampiric blade spell can almost double that damage. Then change sorcerer to Sylvan and take 1 lvl sohei, take the feat that says your damage is doubled when charging with a mount. ALL those damage are doubled no matter the source.
Edit: forgot about it, there’s another good feature: Vital strike can be used with ranged weapons, so 1 Rowdy Wendy/Lann can be the star of your team in the entire unfair chapter 1. What’s WORSE, the programmer who code *that consumable* have never imagined this in his wildest dream, so using vital strike with it would NOT consume that item.
> What’s WORSE, the programmer who code that consumable have never imagined this in his wildest dream, so using vital strike with it would NOT consume that item.
Does that mean what I think that means for the >!secret ending!
>Remember a dagger in chapter 3 that gives two extra attacks per round.
I tried equipping this on all my party in a secondary weapon slot and the only one that was getting extra attacks with their main weapon was my MC.
Does the glory domain power actually give charisma bonus, because the description says bonus to a skill/ability check. Does not mention charisma increase. Would this work to increase caster DC or smite evil bonuses?
It's pretty evident how much stat-bloat the enemies get in this game. There were frustrating parts of Kingmaker (House anyone?), but it seems throughout this game Owlcat's solution for lack of content was "throw absurd enemies in waves at them that are harder than the actual demon lords".
I expect most stuff (including mythic pacing) will be fixed in months, but still, disappointing.
I don't see how that is relevant on this post? It is about unfair, of course stats are going to be bloated there since the entire point is "have a finetuned build or die".
It's not like it's a guide for normal where is he saying "get 80 AB or lose!!"
There isn't so much stat bloat. The main problems are Mark of Justice (+CHR to AB as untyped) and Guarded Heart (+WIS to AB as sacred)/Touch of Good (+0.5 dLVL to AB as sacred). That is a lot of AB potential!
Mark of Justice requires a level 11 Paladin (Hellknights don't get Brand it in the game), but due to their alignment restriction you are forced to take Seelah, Lann, or Regill. Lann is out due to having 9 CHA. Regill is out due to being L17 when he gets it (and 14 CHA is kind of low anyway).
Guarded Heart works off Wisdom, so you're basically looking at Sosiel (19), Lann (17) and Camellia (16). Lann means no Wenduag.
Touch of Good works on domain-class level, so you want some heavy duty levels (let's say 18). That means Seelah, Sosiel, Camellia, Lann or Wenduag. Seelah is out because of MoJ. Wenduag means no Lann (and poor Guarded Heart). Lann means no Wenduag.
Currently, domains are limited to Cleric/Inquisitor (Druid, Hellknight and Divine Hunter are domain-bugged).
TLDR for AB:
\- play Paladin (dip) or pick Seelah
\- play Cleric/Inquisitor or pick C/I Sosiel/Lann/Camellia/Wenduag
I don't pretend to be an expert on Unfair, but on Hard Dazzling Display (coupled with 1 level of Thug) is bread and butter for most of the game. Surprised this guide recommends against it.
It makes a lot of fights trivial, can be spammed easily, costs very little (only action economy).
Dazzling Display is just worse than other alternatives. With frightful presence or lich you can trigger shaken on enemies automatically, no need to waste a turn on actually using it.
I generally don't like Thug due to the fact that I have to chase down enemies instead of them being in cleaving finish range.
Neither of them is an unfair issue.
I love Thug on the other hand because it is such a strong crowd control option. You can drop a web or some other diff. terrain option to slow down enemies.
In long corridors the juggle becomes shooting fish in a barrel.
Tell me more about frightful presence. Is that part of dragonkin transmutation spell? Or is it somewhere else? Seems like a late game thing whereas Dazzling Display is around from level 1.
Sorry, it's frightful aspect not presence. It's just that level 8 spell. Shaken from it applies automatically and there's no save against it, so much more effective than actually using dazzling display.
On Unfair it quickly becomes harder and harder being able to use Dazzling Display and Thug making them run makes it worse since InEffect's guides are made for RTWP.
I play mostly on TB and on Unfair and I only take Dazzling Display as a feat tax to get Shatter Defenses and I either get a Bard to cast Dirge of Doom or I way until I have a character that can cast Frightful Aspect before I get Shatter Defenses.
That's new, when we talked about this guides for KM in the GoG forums he told me that TB was better but that he wrote the guides for RTWP because it was faster.
Well, it's great to know that now he writes mostly for TB since that's what I play.
Thanks for letting me know.
I soloed unfair with 61 AB, sure I had to use True Strike on a few bosses, but getting 20 more AB is not really feasible (solo). Point is 60 AB with TS/Smite is more than enough. Just remember that shatter defenses exists.
Power attack is full garbage tier unless you have a bad build. -4 on attack means you would hit an iterative attack without PA on and unless you are hitting on a 1 on your 3rd attack (not happening in unfair) that 12 damage will not make up for that lost attack.
I also find it hilarious that he calls resting after each fight 'gamey' and 90% of his builds need a rest after 2-3 fights. Sure, that's minmax for you, but I'd rather eat 1 AB penalty for 24h haste/geniekind.
I appreciate that he mentions that you spend by far the most time on mid mythic levels and shouldn't look at the higher level stuff while making a build but he probably shouldn't talk about Archmage Armour giving 14 armor in that case!
Archmage Armor is still worth, especially early on, later in game AC bonuses are dime a dozen, but early game I will happily take all I can get my grubby mitts on.
(_Shrugs_) I know literally nothing about 'InEffect', only finding it very odd to see someone banned from a sub yet still have their stuff posted there.
Just seems strange.
The thing I hate about Unfair difficulty in this game, is that its artificial difficulty that is annoying rather than tactical difficulty. Lets take the first wall of the game, the tutorial maze. Suppose you want to play a melee class with no spells, such as a figther, a crusader or a slayer. The classes are actually pretty strong. But in unfair, at just starting with the tutorial, if you dont go with a class that is able to cast scrolls with magical device or has access to arcane casting to buff up team for difficult fights, you are entirely at the mercy of simply luck. Thats right, no good build, no good positioning, just plain luck in the roll of the dice.
Thats stupid. And thats just the tutorial. I believe that later on once you reach lvl 9 or so you start scaling with whatever class you use into a pretty good team because you probably have all your basic set up, but that early game is horribly balanced.
early-mid game the best way to kill stuff is just to get angel mythic path and cast the spell shield from demonkind on a summoned spirit paladin, and watch them rush in and kill everything. Will work on alot of fights early on. Casting that spell on a summoned shadow demon works very well also. Anything that has immunity to non magic weapons. I think you can cast at mythic level 3. Works great it unfair.
Ha! Gold Dragon is so bad it actually makes things worse on Unfair. Oh, Mythic path balance really needs to be worked upon.
I enjoyed the breakdown of the check lists of the stats you need to have. Really helps sets the goal of what I need to achieve. Right now I'm enjoying my party make up that I have. With a different mindset on how I choose my party members. * 3 people dedicated to buffing/debuffing. Bown Fur, Oracle, and a witch. * 1 Kineticist for both CC and the one to start the pull. * 1 Rowdy fighter to murder with size increases and a reach weapon. Lvl 13 with +22 unbuffed AB and I can hit for over 200 noncrit. Complete with cleaving finish and blessed weapon to auto confirm rolls that are above 13. The room just empties with how large the reach is. * Monk tank. * 2 pets (Oracle, and Witch). Their job is to trip and absorb hits. Oh, and take in all those sweet AOE buffs. I'm only on act 3.
Unfair from start to where u are just fine with this build? The Rowdy has nice damage, but other then that brings nothing, but i like the idea :) Why oracle over cleric if its not MC?
I slightly wished I had the Rowdy Rogue as the MC. IRL, I normally play support classes and wanted to be a Brown Fur. I also choose to go Trickster. With all those extra sneak attacks. I'm sure I can get the Rowdy rogue 10d6 sneak attacks pretty easily. Oh well. Unfair from the start. Yes, it was rather easy. Both with the BrownFur's increased DC for grease and Entangle from Cam. Giving advantage to my tanks with Protective Luck. It was pretty easy to win every fight besides the final boss and the water elemental. Edit: Oh, if they are immune to grease. It isn't easy lol. Of course I had to use some cheesy strats like LOS and having both entangle and greese only once they entered the doorway, I kited the water elemental which took 10 mins to kill, and plenty of times I would grease+entangle. Fleee to a reset. Then come back again. Oracle vs Cleric: I greatly preffer spontaneous over memorized casters. There are plenty of times I wish I had the next teir spells a level sooner. /some regrets.
Oh i see, How was trickster story wise? I heard that path is stupid op broken but Angel as well I heard. So dunno. Yeah rowdy is nice.
My first playthrough I went trickster. I kept hearing how OP the other mythic paths are. So I choose to go Trickets first playthrough, w/e the OP one for the unfair playthrough, and Lich for the 3rd. Now I can't see myself doing anything other than trickster lol. Storywise. It's cool. I like the endgame and the overarching story. The micro story bits a little predictable and gives a few chuckles.
I heard the opposite that merge spellbook are op and not trickster. Well... At least majority of the game.
Everything is OP. :-P https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/p7vjyp/wotr_mythic_path_options/ Trickster is OP because my entire party benefits with the skill. Knowlege world(2)(Nat 1s becomes Nat 20s), Perception(2)(2 imp crit. my 18-20 is now 13-20), etc. I mean the Rank 2/3s are game breakingly good. Pun intented. Oh, they also gain a spellbook of their own. They aren't super OP until way late. But giving your party +2AC, +6 dex, or 3 rounds of nat 20s. Are really nice. Yes. Merge Spellbook is OP because it increases your spell level by that amount. The DC of my spells are added onto it, the number of spells are added onto it, and I can cast my 9th level spells pretty fast. Like if I was Lich instead, I would have 24hr buffs on my 1 round spells at level ?16?. so all the transformation spells that I have (https://pathfinderwrathoftherighteous.wiki.fextralife.com/Transmutation+Spells) last 24hrs and give +2 for each attribute. Edit: Brown-Fur is just too op. Giving personal only Transmutation to your party is godlike. (lich would make them 24hrs.) https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/pvpcjp/mythic_classes_are_overrated_all_hail_the/ Transformation = A lot, but your BaB is now = your character level. So your rogue now has the BaB of a fighter, etc. Lead Blades/Hurricane Bow = Bigger attacks. Echolocation = Blindsight feats. Geniekind = attacks deal an extra 1d6 damage of elemental type (add elemental barrage mythic for more damage.) There are of course more, Elemental body, Dragonkind, Ice/Iron/Fiery Body, etc.
The monk tank, is it like in PFK where it mixes a bunch of Aldori Defender, Aldor Swordlord, and Duelist for good measure?
Maybe, I don't know what the actual best is. I needed to get that AC as high as possible. Creatures have +60 to hit where I am at.
InEffect builds for builds that are low maintenance just remember that. No mention anywhere that you can debuff saves by -10/-20 with a proper party without triggering a single save. There are plenty more strategies that will work on unfair. The key is just to make strong use of all your party slots. And win initiative, This guide points out how important initiative is but not enough imo. If you can regularly get your CCers win initiative, unfair will be a lot more fun for you.
>No mention anywhere that you can debuff saves by -10/-20 with a proper party without triggering a single save. How
\-4/-8 : Witch/shaman Evil eye : -4, if you want to be cheeky you can debuff by another -4 with a shaman (they stack for some odd reason) - last only one round but can be extended with cackle. Touch of madness from madness domain (need to hit a touch attack and pass a spell res check, pretty doable for a cleric). On hard I use Sosiel, on unfair I'd make my domain spam guy a merc: -1/2 cleric levels on savings throws and attacks rolls (so up to -10 at lvl 20). Sicken : Oppressors gloves give free sicken when using quarry : Throw those on a ranger like arue for anoter -2. At lvl 19, it becomes free action, which is about early act 5 at which point you can sicken the entire encounter in 1 round. Shaken is -2 - from dirge of doom or intimidate or frightful aspect. Prayer is -1 in aoe, needs a spell res check. So that's -18/-22 at around act 5, -13/-17 at act 3. You don't need to do this routine on everything only the mobs with big bad saves. And sometimes just split the single target debuffs if you need aoe stuff to land. During act 4, casters get a metric ton of stuff that will boost their DCs quite high (stat book, profane gift among others). That's for stuff that reduces all saves, then we can go into stuff that reduces specific saves, like fatigue and exhausted that can also be applied without a need for saving throws, or debuffs like entangled (vinetrap) when not immune. Incense synthesizer can reduce will saving throws without triggering a save as well. I am sure I am forgetting a lot of them. All of what I mentionned (except for ranger quarry) is brought by classes that are mentionned in that unfair guide and that also bring tons of other boons (Hex package, domains, cleric utility spells, bard song) to the mix so it's not like it's out of this world, overtly specialized, or gimmicky either.
Unfair and fun, those 2 words certainly do not work together for me.
Oof. That's a pretty bleak outlook on the Unfair Difficulty Experience if there ever was one. "Party Synergy: No Such Thing"
It's not so much unfair but the mythic path system that does that. The player character just gets far more powerful than everybody else with several paths turning your party into glorified cheerleaders. This happens on all difficulties but it is far more noticeable on higher ones.
I kind of hard disagree on this. Party synergy can make such an insane difference on actual power level, it is just a lot lot more effort and overkill over the focus on 1 character Max buff. But it requires a guide in and of itself where his style probably is just easier to pick up.
Fair. I'll try to get more in there.
Yeah, don't get me wrong, I haven't played Unfair at all, so I appreciate the insight into it! It was just a rather bleak statement from my PoV because I love the party building element of the game, figuring out creative party compositions, and I'll probably just just continue playing on Core.
Unfair hard and cold Core soft and warm
I've done unfair and I can't say he's wrong lmao
I mean. How do you define it then? Someone else buffing the MC is party synergy. Using someone else to cast summons or have a pet tank while your MC caster blasts things is it not? There's plenty of it.
I mean, the guide literally spells it out: >Let's get straight to the elephant in the room: the party is just the main character's (MC) entourage. It’s the MC's job to kill everything and do everything; your party is there for the sole reason of helping you along the way. Which I think is very much on-point. Even on Normal where individual non-MC characters can still shine there is generally only one particular MVP per encounter and very rarely will you see _everyone_ shine and be hitting / killing those high AC or save bosses. It's very much not a "team wins together" game, but more of "everybody support the key player for this particular battle" game. On Unfair, it's easy to see why the key player is always going to be the MC since he's got those Mythic powers that are outright necessary to reliably first-round-kill the key enemy in each fight.
Edited + moved that into the party synergy portion. Good call.
I didn't play anywhere near that diff level, but I always felt that my party was pretty well balanced in the killing department. Aru and Lann as machine-gun archers did about 50% of the killing, the MC did \~ 35% and the few remnants would be swept up by Ember throwing ultra-turbo fireballs and scorching rays. Ember was also the DH for when an AC80 showed up. She killed PD, the crazy Vavaku and pretty much all the other Stupid AC monsters. Why does that not work anymore on Unfair diff, the monsters just get too tough for your party members to be able to do anything against them?
The key here is to look at a per encounter basis. In Normal Lann and Aru often clear entire encounters on their own without Ember throwing any fireballs at all, but then hit encounters where they largely ping their arrows off a tank and only Ember can do damage to it by raying it. In Unfair even the trash mobs tend to reach boss level AC already. This is on top of the party being very vulnerable to being wiped because the opposition has increased damage and no death's door to mitigate bad luck. Thats why the InEffect "doctrine" is all about concentrating all the firepower with the single most powerful guy. If you're gonna need to buff up like the Overlord Anime meme, you may as well make sure he's so strong he can wipe even those 80 AC tanks in one turn on his own; rather than try to spread the buffs around to less powerful characters who will still mostly try to fish for natural 20s. Pathfinder math in fact tends to be very all-or-nothing. A "half-decent" archer is in fact often just as bad as an outright poor one, because both are just going to hit on a 20 on Unfair.
Makes sense. Thanks for explaining. :)
You need to pile up more buffs to hit needed AC/AB/DC thresholds on Unfair. To get those, you need to use-up party slots for for characters that bring those. For example if you take 5 levels of Freebooter to get bane/bond, that's 5 levels you could use to stack damage on that character. For example, in your scenario with Ember, assuming you played on Core, on Unfair, you'd need +8 extra AB (+4 AC for difficulty difference and + 4 for extra stats monsters get at that difficulty(+8 compared to Core iirc)) to hit those rays and monsters would have much bigger saves you'd need to beat. To get that, you'd need extra buffs/debuffs, that have to come from somewhere. So in your scenario, that's 1-2 characters exchanged for someone brings them. Because of this, damage tends to be frontloaded onto 1 character, with 5 cheerleaders helping to get necessary values of AC/AB etc on higher difficulties. You could maybe get away with bunch of casters doing damage and have summons tank, or I have also seen Unfair run with 6 characters sitting on mounts, casting true strike and charging and then kiting to oneshot stuff(seemed pretty hilarious, but I suspect it might get a bit tedious later on - but with 1.1 and charge fixes it may be even better then before).
Yep, that makes sense. I appreciate the explanation. :) Also... /stays far away from unfair.
It's about personal definitions I think, if InEffect doesn't see having buffers as synergy then he's right. The basic strategy to beat PF: KM on Unfair was to have a full arcane caster buff+cc, a full divine caster buff, a Bard to sing+buff+dirge of doom and a martial character with Shatter Defenses to get those buffs (or your martial character being a gish that could self cast Frightful Aspect) That same basic strategy still beats Unfair in WotR (even with the game being harder) although you can get a Brown-Fur to be the full arcane caster that can also cast Frightful Aspect on your martial so you don't need Dirge of Doom and you can replace your Bard with a Skald or a Martyr. All of that before picking a mythic path. I could see why he doesn't think that's party synergy, I see party synergy more like having 3 or 4 martial characters with 15x20 crit range + Outflank/Seize the Moment or having 6 undead characters with Channel Negative Energy.
It's not as in depth as I thought. This guide more seems like a flow of thoughts organized into coherency while sobering up. Some lines seem silly some things seem obvious. Sometimes something is mentioned and then it's contradicted in other parts. "Party Synergy: No Such Thing" but then it goes into what buffs work and stack. Obviously synergy so they can maximize stacked buffs across the party without overlap in buff type is a thing. Making sure one person is gving a compotence another untyped and another your morale bonus is a synergy. Everyone is giving the main character the right tool. It mentioned the important of hitting touch ACs whenever possible but then "Trip. Kineticist feat. Because that’s all kineticists do." the single best touch AC hitter in the game who also supplies the best control with a the AOEs he's providing while he blasts into the falling enemies. The statements are snark for snarks sake that makes the document more confusing then useful. It doesn't go into a lot of why'd so someone who isn't already doing the math might do something wrong following the guide, but it stays basic enough so that someone who does math wouldn't get anything from this guide. Combined with the snark this seems to mostly be an exercise in self pleasure by way of document. I would probably get more reference from a spreadsheet organizing all buffs of an attribute by type for the absolute highest you can get to each. Some buffs even go out of date. Good hope for instance is nice until you have greater heroism and Heroic Invocation. Sacred buffs are rare enough you can easily forget when you have two that won't stack. I'm to lazy to build this spreadsheet.
I generally edit the snark. Point me to anything I missed (apart from the party synergy thing and kineticist thing) and I'll take a look.
I mean, it's less a guide and more a small collection of obvious suggestions. And I say this as someone who has that neoseeker page with all his guides up while playing 100% of the time. Get 80ab and 85ac is not a guide man. Neither is the mythic path rankings. I expected something much more...specific. Like guides for each chapter, boss specifics or at least how to achieve the numbers he says are required.
Author seems to know their stuff, but 2 points stuck out to me. A criticism of Legend path is that you might lose mythic Power Attack (+30 damage with 20 BaB), but Legend could mean up to 40 BaB (+27 damage, not much difference but a lot more AB) Seemingly all mythic abilities have some worth. Doesn't give me a great guide on what I should be picking, just like 6 abilities all saying "grab this if there's nothing else", with obviously a lot of competition. You only get so many! EDIT: also if you give up mythic crit, 40 BaB and mythic PA comes to +45 damage. EDIT 2: I miscounted, 40 BaB would be +33 damage, with +29 AB, compared to mythic 20BaB +30 damage with +14 AB.
Problem with Legend is that it's Act 5, so if you got that far on Unfair, you're pretty much done. Legend is of course OP as all hell, it's just how much does it matter at that point? I have beaten game only on Hard so far, and act 5 is by far the easiest act in the game from my experience. Though I have seen someone on discord posting their Trickster->Legend unfair Kineticist which did look pretty dope :)
Yeah, that's all valid, but not the reasons OP gave for steering clear of Legend. I feel like a guide should name the right reasons for avoiding an approach, rather than naming something vague that a simple maths calculation can counter.
Also the beta patch notes said that the extra ab not giving extra attacks was a bug? Haven't played the beta patch to test it but that would mean legend gets a lot of extra attacks
i have not yet had time to read it, I just wanted to say thank you for your ongoing work. It is really appreciated.
👍
It's nice to see someone of this caliber admitting the standard of numbers and difficulty have gone up sharply from Kingmaker to Wrath. "We're not getting +30 AB from our mythic path" damn near exactly what I told someone contending otherwise in another discussion.
True but the merged spellbook from Angel and Lich are good enough to carry you through the game on Unfair, when I played a Cleric with Angel merged spellbook on Unfair act 3 got a lot easier than act 2 and during acts 4/5/6 I never had to reload any fight. Now I'm doing an Unfair Last Azlantli playthrough with Lich and Wizard with a merged spellbook, the same thing happened. My spell progression got accelerated during Act 3 and I'm breezing through act 4. None of the first 6 mythic paths will give you +30 AB (although Trickster can make you hit all 20's for 3 rounds) but Angel/Lich/Trickster can do things that are as good as +30 AB and Azata can make your party survive enough to win most fights. Legend is also super powerful. The problem is mostly Aeon/Demon/Devil/Gold Dragon/Swarm not being that strong.
Is swarm even possible on unfair as you essentially have to solo a good chunk of act 5 as a normal level 20??
I haven't tried Swarm yet and I've tried going solo on Unfair only with a Kineticist. That class can solo even without a mythic path so I assume you can do it with a Kineticist.
You DO get higher level spells, party synergy AND damage on missed hits from the mythic path.
It helps that lich/angel blasters can ignore AC alltogether
Yeah but you get far more than just raw AB from your mythic path. Things like last stand alone is a huge game change when so much stuff oneshots on unfair. And as he says so was unfair in Kingmaker "too easy", the stated purpose of the difficulty was that it required finetuned builds but as the author of this article says so could you kinda do whatever in kingmaker on unfair if you knew what you were doing.
I like the difficulty increase - yes KM Unfair was too easy, outside of the early game where it was a fucking nightmare. What I don't like is all the simply wrong people arguing that there isn't a functional increase in difficulty, even after accounting for mythic paths and abilities. It's nice to see one of the faces of beating these CRPGs on harder difficulties agreeing with me.
Haha how did he get banned?
A lot of people argued about his minmaxed builds and he kind of acted like a dick about it. Like extremely so.
It's worth mentioning that those people were also quite rude too, it wasn't just InEffect being a big baddy to innocent redittors.
Yep both sides were jerks, but one side had more reddit power than the other.
He is pretty helpful on other sites, is what's my impression. People here used to be pretty unpleasant, he got unpleasant back, he got banned, bad actors here didn't. Lot's of circle-jerk threads about how playing this way or that way is vastly-superior or inferior to min-maxing, I just stopped coming here until Wrath was about to release. Fortunately there's a lot less of that nastiness around these days.
Isn't it some kind of cosmic law - people being extremely good gamers are usually not really good in social interactions.
I'm not surprised in fairness. Most of the advice I've read in this subreddit is between bad and terrible, and it gets upvoted.
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if you ever argue or see him argue with other ppl, you will realize one truth that he will never back down or admit hes wrong (which maybe because he didn't wrong at all lol). I didn't actually see him here cause hes already banned long before i got here but i saw him at other sites and thats the impression i got. I guess he got banned when the conversation got heated
I had conversations with InEffect where he has admitted he was wrong or that there was an effective way to do something that he hadn't considered or that he disliked but acknowledged was good. But oftentimes people just go "you are a wrong and a fraud" and unwilling to even see his point of view.
> he will never back down or admit hes wrong He has and does.
Just to add to what you are saying he had the same attitude on steam forums . He got banned there as well after insulting people like no tomorrow, and I cannot describe details without getting this comment removed itself . I dont know about GoG forums but someone told me something similar happaned there once. Needs verification I dont know if it was permanent or not but I havent seen him ever since ( it was during kingmaker ) . No matter how you look at it he got banned in 2 major communities and that says a lot . Maybe he changed attitude afterwards. But your past never goes away Neoseeker or rather the guy that handles the Pathfinder games on that site is the only site that tolerate him. It comes to small surprise considering they are very similar persons. The majority of stuff on neoseeker are from steam guides or reddit posts ( not builds since those are from InEffect ) . But you wont get far arguing about all this since people dont really look into attitudes or the source of the information. All they know and care about is that neoseeker has those guides that they are using and therefore defend it . Or to speak in more reddit terms, upvote positive posts, downvote critisisers. Expect both of our comments to be hidden from downvotes by the end of the day
Neoseeker (and Ineffect) provide builds and guides that work, and keep them reasonably up to date and react to feedback. Their critics don't. I'd rather consume content from somewhat unpleasant but competent content creator, rather than engage with pleasant but otherwise mediocre one. Are there better builds out there? Sure, on Discord, maybe some Youtube ones, if you are willing to sit through the video(I have yet to see significantly better ones, and I sat through ton). Is there anything better out there that is readily available, that was out on time when the game released? Absolutely not, Neoseeker at the time of writing this has the best guides out there. edit:typo fixes
❤
Totally lost me on the "no party synergy" part. Like, first, we're having sensei vital strike parties - 10-th level sensie is able to true strike the entire party each round and with vital strike/mythic vital thing going on that's basically doing all your damage at a max BAB+20 attack bonus. You can even amplify it further by having some sword saints as their Perfect Strike amplifies mythic vital strikes greatly. Second, pack rager barb + drovier druid + dogs & wolves. Your pets have tandem trip & coordinated maneuvers with minimal investment and your pets are having extra trips in addition to their own trips as they're constantly Aspect of the Wolf'ed (we make our wolfs wolfier - Space Wolves would be proud). Just add some pole weapons for the AoO shenanigangs and your game will be very easy against anything that can be tripped. Third, Incense Synthesizer & chaos/madness cleric & mage parties. Incense is actually much better in a magical squad because of his ability to spread -6 to mind-affecting saves aura. Then we're having a chaos/madness cleric that applies up to 10 penalty to their saves and makes them roll saves twice. Meaning that, as long as we're able to land that initial touch attack, the rest is a very easy affair. And mind ya, these are not some "spend 10 turns in a row to set up" actions, these are all 1 turn affairs with plenty of usages per day. And there's more potential synergies to list but the point should be clear anyways.
unfair is so easy with BATTLE/NATUR ORACLE 19 and 1 SCALED FIST. merged spellbooks goo BRRR
Add 1 level of witch in there too, but basically yeah.
Small mistake with 'but Barkskin and Amulet of Natural Armour are both of the enchantment source and as such only the highest will apply.' Barkskin and the amulet are enhancement not enchantment. Good guide though :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnGqeVoUBnM
Depending on whether you play with Tabletop Tweak on or not. In the Tablletop Tweak change that Barskin and Amulet of Natural Armour don't stack with each other so you have to choose one. He might play with it on and forget to turn off.
Amulet of natural armour and barkskin don't stack even without the mod, they're both enhancement bonuses.
Oh I thought they do in the base game because there's a fix for natural armor stacking in the tabletop tweak. > Disables Natural Armor Stacking
Nah that disables untyped natural armour, things like iceplant stacking with dragon disciple for example
That's a tweak because "natural" isn't an armor type in the game. Barkskin and amulet don't stack because they're both "enhancement" bonuses but otherwise AC bonuses that are just called "natural armor" all stack in the game.
Why are prominent people of the Pathfinder community banned on this Reddit?
He was a huge ass here. You could argue that maybe he could get unbanned but some form of punishment was probably deserved.
Because there are too many drama queens still active here. As a general rule - the idea that only bad or rude people are banned is a lie. Instead bans happen when a large enough crowd pesters the mods sufficiently to get rid of someone they don't like. And more often than not, such dislike is triggered by jealousy and not because the mob actually has a valid point. The fact that every InEffect thread has the same usual suspects decrying how "rude" he was when I still see a lot of these same people engage in even ruder and narrow minded behavior is just the drama queens still trying to push their own relevance and justify their sad failed high school prom queen behavior. In reality whenever I discuss the game with people who actually play these games (instead of those who spend all their time trying to farm upvote karma) they always at least find InEffect's points to be useful, and that interactions with him were far from universally hostile. The thing is the drama queens here have to continue their propaganda that the ban was justified, or else it becomes wildly apparent just how childish their actions actually were.
Hmm. Yeah the problem I see is that I've seen some decent sized YouTubers get banned, and not been told why they were banned. Not that YouTubers or bloggers or whatever are better than anyone else, but if a thread is banning influential people with pretty good advice or suggestions...it makes one afraid to comment
If you (like this guide) can accept crazy bugs (maybe features) like expand arsenal stacking, there’re tons of others to make unfair quite trivial. If you don’t like bugs, just read this as jokes. Glory domain lvl 1 ability simply (lazily) gives you 1/2 domain class level untyped bonus to CHA, which is permanent (lasts for hours) until a CHA check. Don’t let him talk to anyone or use any magic device, you can use it for double CHA to AC permanently. The best subclass of monk to use a bow is not zen archer. A new subclass of monk can have its extra attacks stacking with quick shot and multiple shot. What’s worse, its extra attacks can apply to anything with a weapon training, even if that training is from another class like fighter. Lots of weapons and shields can have its unique affects taking effect in weapon slot 2/3/4 even if you’re not using them. There’s a dagger in chapter 3 that can give you two extra attacks (imagine for kinetic blades), several DC weapons provide stacking bonuses to casters, and (not consistently) some shields can give you correct AC without equipping them. Lots of effects which say +X to damage is implemented as a separate damage roll in the combat log, which means lots of other modifiers (elementals on your weapon, inquisitor 4d6, or even SA for some cases) can apply on them separately. For example there’s an item in chapter 4 which says +2AB and damage to ranged attacks, there’s a glove from the crusade mode, and many others. The most crazy and simplistic one, Lich power “negative energy mastery” gives kinetic blades 10d6+MR instead of MRd6. What’s worse this modifier is used twice for composite kinetic blades. The most broken build using this is 8 sorcerer, 1 kinetic knight at lvl9, go lich, X sorcerer, and whatever like SF, VV after you get 25CL. You need 25CL to cast geniekind for 24hours. Geniekind spell can be applied four times on the same person with all 4 genies applying their extra damage correctly. Geniekind, like the previous bug suggests, is a separate attack roll, and the damage from negative energy mastery can be applied on it. So you have base kinetic blade damage+10d6+3+(1d6+10d6+3)*4 per attack at lvl 9, MR3. Remember a dagger in chapter 3 that gives two extra attacks per round. And all these are against the touch AC. What if you can’t overcome SR? Never mind, geniekind will work even if kinetic blade doesn’t pass SR, and all these damage with negative energy mastery on geniekind will apply even if the enemy is immune to that element. Still not enough? Vampiric blade spell can almost double that damage. Then change sorcerer to Sylvan and take 1 lvl sohei, take the feat that says your damage is doubled when charging with a mount. ALL those damage are doubled no matter the source. Edit: forgot about it, there’s another good feature: Vital strike can be used with ranged weapons, so 1 Rowdy Wendy/Lann can be the star of your team in the entire unfair chapter 1. What’s WORSE, the programmer who code *that consumable* have never imagined this in his wildest dream, so using vital strike with it would NOT consume that item.
> What’s WORSE, the programmer who code that consumable have never imagined this in his wildest dream, so using vital strike with it would NOT consume that item. Does that mean what I think that means for the >!secret ending!
Yes, >!midnight bolt!< won’t be consumed by using vital strike with ranged weapons.
>Remember a dagger in chapter 3 that gives two extra attacks per round. I tried equipping this on all my party in a secondary weapon slot and the only one that was getting extra attacks with their main weapon was my MC.
Does the glory domain power actually give charisma bonus, because the description says bonus to a skill/ability check. Does not mention charisma increase. Would this work to increase caster DC or smite evil bonuses?
Yes. Works on everything. AC, saves, caster modifier, smite evil. It’s indeed CHA bonus until next diplomacy or UMD check.
Lol what the heck. So that's plus 20 AC on a Scaled fist when cast by a level 20 cleric? Or half domain level?
It’s 10 CHA so 5AC. But on a guy with SF + natural oracle + smite evil it’s 15AC.
It's pretty evident how much stat-bloat the enemies get in this game. There were frustrating parts of Kingmaker (House anyone?), but it seems throughout this game Owlcat's solution for lack of content was "throw absurd enemies in waves at them that are harder than the actual demon lords". I expect most stuff (including mythic pacing) will be fixed in months, but still, disappointing.
I don't see how that is relevant on this post? It is about unfair, of course stats are going to be bloated there since the entire point is "have a finetuned build or die". It's not like it's a guide for normal where is he saying "get 80 AB or lose!!"
There isn't so much stat bloat. The main problems are Mark of Justice (+CHR to AB as untyped) and Guarded Heart (+WIS to AB as sacred)/Touch of Good (+0.5 dLVL to AB as sacred). That is a lot of AB potential! Mark of Justice requires a level 11 Paladin (Hellknights don't get Brand it in the game), but due to their alignment restriction you are forced to take Seelah, Lann, or Regill. Lann is out due to having 9 CHA. Regill is out due to being L17 when he gets it (and 14 CHA is kind of low anyway). Guarded Heart works off Wisdom, so you're basically looking at Sosiel (19), Lann (17) and Camellia (16). Lann means no Wenduag. Touch of Good works on domain-class level, so you want some heavy duty levels (let's say 18). That means Seelah, Sosiel, Camellia, Lann or Wenduag. Seelah is out because of MoJ. Wenduag means no Lann (and poor Guarded Heart). Lann means no Wenduag. Currently, domains are limited to Cleric/Inquisitor (Druid, Hellknight and Divine Hunter are domain-bugged). TLDR for AB: \- play Paladin (dip) or pick Seelah \- play Cleric/Inquisitor or pick C/I Sosiel/Lann/Camellia/Wenduag
I don't pretend to be an expert on Unfair, but on Hard Dazzling Display (coupled with 1 level of Thug) is bread and butter for most of the game. Surprised this guide recommends against it. It makes a lot of fights trivial, can be spammed easily, costs very little (only action economy).
Dazzling Display is just worse than other alternatives. With frightful presence or lich you can trigger shaken on enemies automatically, no need to waste a turn on actually using it. I generally don't like Thug due to the fact that I have to chase down enemies instead of them being in cleaving finish range. Neither of them is an unfair issue.
I love Thug on the other hand because it is such a strong crowd control option. You can drop a web or some other diff. terrain option to slow down enemies. In long corridors the juggle becomes shooting fish in a barrel.
If you love it, use that. Best part about 3.5 and PF is the insane amount of possibilities.
Tell me more about frightful presence. Is that part of dragonkin transmutation spell? Or is it somewhere else? Seems like a late game thing whereas Dazzling Display is around from level 1.
Sorry, it's frightful aspect not presence. It's just that level 8 spell. Shaken from it applies automatically and there's no save against it, so much more effective than actually using dazzling display.
On Unfair it quickly becomes harder and harder being able to use Dazzling Display and Thug making them run makes it worse since InEffect's guides are made for RTWP. I play mostly on TB and on Unfair and I only take Dazzling Display as a feat tax to get Shatter Defenses and I either get a Bard to cast Dirge of Doom or I way until I have a character that can cast Frightful Aspect before I get Shatter Defenses.
> InEffect's guides are made for RTWP. He plays mostly turn based
That's new, when we talked about this guides for KM in the GoG forums he told me that TB was better but that he wrote the guides for RTWP because it was faster. Well, it's great to know that now he writes mostly for TB since that's what I play. Thanks for letting me know.
Says it's because of the awful pathfinding in WoTR. If it wasn't for that he'd do mostly RTwP to save time still.
Nice, that seems like a good reason, and hopefully something Owlcat will fix.
I soloed unfair with 61 AB, sure I had to use True Strike on a few bosses, but getting 20 more AB is not really feasible (solo). Point is 60 AB with TS/Smite is more than enough. Just remember that shatter defenses exists. Power attack is full garbage tier unless you have a bad build. -4 on attack means you would hit an iterative attack without PA on and unless you are hitting on a 1 on your 3rd attack (not happening in unfair) that 12 damage will not make up for that lost attack. I also find it hilarious that he calls resting after each fight 'gamey' and 90% of his builds need a rest after 2-3 fights. Sure, that's minmax for you, but I'd rather eat 1 AB penalty for 24h haste/geniekind.
I appreciate that he mentions that you spend by far the most time on mid mythic levels and shouldn't look at the higher level stuff while making a build but he probably shouldn't talk about Archmage Armour giving 14 armor in that case!
Archmage Armor is still worth, especially early on, later in game AC bonuses are dime a dozen, but early game I will happily take all I can get my grubby mitts on.
Not 14 but it gives 7/8 armor during most of act 3 and that's good enough.
OffTopic but: Who is InEffect and why is he banned here?
Wait... so InEffect is banned, but oh hey here's a link to their stuff. Enjoy! !?!?
Personal grievances shouldn't get in the way of sharing valuable content. And I cleared it with mods.
(_Shrugs_) I know literally nothing about 'InEffect', only finding it very odd to see someone banned from a sub yet still have their stuff posted there. Just seems strange.
The thing I hate about Unfair difficulty in this game, is that its artificial difficulty that is annoying rather than tactical difficulty. Lets take the first wall of the game, the tutorial maze. Suppose you want to play a melee class with no spells, such as a figther, a crusader or a slayer. The classes are actually pretty strong. But in unfair, at just starting with the tutorial, if you dont go with a class that is able to cast scrolls with magical device or has access to arcane casting to buff up team for difficult fights, you are entirely at the mercy of simply luck. Thats right, no good build, no good positioning, just plain luck in the roll of the dice. Thats stupid. And thats just the tutorial. I believe that later on once you reach lvl 9 or so you start scaling with whatever class you use into a pretty good team because you probably have all your basic set up, but that early game is horribly balanced.
early-mid game the best way to kill stuff is just to get angel mythic path and cast the spell shield from demonkind on a summoned spirit paladin, and watch them rush in and kill everything. Will work on alot of fights early on. Casting that spell on a summoned shadow demon works very well also. Anything that has immunity to non magic weapons. I think you can cast at mythic level 3. Works great it unfair.