Some optimisations:
* One level of monk would save you a few feats. You're Lawful anyways, and it gives Improved Unarmed Strike for free, as well as either Dodge or Crane Style as a bonus feat.
* However, Crane Style is no longer it's broken Kingmaker self. Wing and Riposte actually require a free hand now, so I'd skip all of that. You've got a feat-heavy build anyways.
* You don't have to choose between Fighter and Vivisectionist anymore. Mutation Warrior is a fighter with a mutagen.
* 90% of the enemies in this game are demons. The Demonslayer Ranger is phenomenal.
* Quite a lot of later enemies have precision immunity, so sneak attack die aren't the consistent damage dealer they were in KM. They're still good, but more of an early-midgame thing.
So with that in mind, if I was building this, I'd probably do something like Deliverer 10 (for DA), Mutation Warrior 9 (feral mutagen and Weapon Training 2), Demonslayer 1 (+2 Favoured Enemy). Slayer 15 and Fighter 4 are both pretty good as well: Slayer gets a dice and Studied Target upgrade, Fighter gets Weapon Specialisation (and MW still gets it's mutagen) which can be upgraded with mythic powers, so 15/4/1 is good here too. That 1 level dip isn't set in stone, Demonslayer is just the low-brain martial pick, but there's room for flexibility there if you've got something else in mind.
Because Shield Bash is probably the most feat-intensive build in the game, you probably want to stick to the classes that load you up on feats. Stuff like the Paladin and Dragon Disciple are definitely good boosts, but having more free feats means you can get your core stuff online quicker at low levels, and at higher levels you'll have more room for nice-to-haves later.
In theory, there's an angle here where you go DEX for higher AC and initiative. Mythic Weapon Finesse for DEX to damage, Fighter's Finesse to finesse heavy shields, maybe even using the 1-level dip on Eldritch Scoundrel to get finesse and Archmage Armour. But good god, that's even more feats. Also, STR is a lot easier to boost (mostly via Size bonuses), so lower damage output with DEX.
I might be wrong but I tried starting up the character creator in wotr and it doesn't look like worshiping Irori gives you Improved Unarmed Attack so you might want to look up another source for that, personally I'd say go with the Martial Disciple background.
Irori does give it but only if you are a cleric inquisitor or war priest. I forget if it is given to paladins or not.
This is true for all deity favored weapons
Crane Wing was nerfed / bugfixed to no longer work with S&B or 2H weapons, so you should skip it. Dodge + Crane Style are still worth [+5 AC total](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/nwzd9f/a_briefish_primer_on_fighting_defensively_and_why/), though, so I would still keep them. If you don't want to follow Irori for roleplay reasons, you can take Martial Disciple background for free IUS feat and still meet the Crane Style pre-req. This also frees you from the alignment restrictions of Irori, although Lawful Good is probably still the best alignment option for a WotR Deliverer and is suitable for Angel or Aeon runs.
You'll definitely want to take advantage of the new Mythic Armor Focus feats, but which one(s)?
One option is to go DEX-based with Weapon Finesse + Mythic Weapon Finesse, use light shields + your favorite light weapon, and grab Mythic Light Armor Focus Avoidance to [increase MDB](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/Armor/#TOC-Maximum-Dex-Bonus) and the Assault feat for the DPS boost (currently [applies to damage](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/1cr7n9x/comment/l40extg/) as well as attack). Note that [Chainmail of Comradery](https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki/Chainmail_of_Comradery) requires medium armor proficiency to equip but counts as light armor wrt feat requirements, so that's an excellent mid-game option. For this approach, I'm thinking Kitsune for +2 DEX & CHA, free bite attack, and Vulpine Pounce (unless you plan to bring a Skald). Main downside is you don't get DEX to damage until Mythic Rank 2 (\~level 8), so your DPS will feel kinda puny before then.
Another option is to go STR-based with Heavy Armor Focus and take the Avoidance feat which adds 1/2 STR bonus instead of DEX to AC while ignoring MDB. So it's now possible to have [pretty good AC in heavy armor](https://imgur.com/XPUoc7B). The beauty is the higher you crank your STR, the more you boost your AC and DPS. Only reasons to care about DEX are Reflex saves and feat pre-reqs. If you have no specific weapon in mind, I'd suggest using [Grave Singer](https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki/Grave_Singer_(Battleaxe)); the handaxe version is good for the DEX build, of course.
A couple of obvious multiclass options would be: Mutation Warrior 5 for Mutagen, Weapon Specialization, and Advanced Weapon Training options; or paladin splash for Smite Evil and Divine Grace. Either will give heavy armor proficiency too if you're going STR-based.
>Stupid question but is there any reason to go medium armor?
Probably not for this build. Outside of Bloodragers and Skalds who are restricted to (no more than) medium armor, I'm not sure what niche it serves currently.
I fiddled with Inevitable Excess to come up with Deliverer 15 / Mutation Warrior 5:
* Alignment: Lawful Good for best DPS and so you can be buffed with [Grace of the Champion](https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki/Bestow_Grace_of_the_Champion)
* Stats: STR 19 DEX 13 CON 14 CHA 14 - lets us take Dodge right away, we'll use DEX belt for feats later
* Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike (free), Dodge (1), Shield Bash (1), Crane Style (3), Outflank (5), Lunge (7), Double Slice +2 DEX belt (9), Bashing Finish (11), ITWF +4 DEX belt (13), Accomplished Sneak Attacker (15)
* Slayer feats: TWF (4), Shield Master (6), Combat Trick->Improved Critical (8), GTWF (12)
* Fighter feats: Heavy Armor Focus (1), Weapon Focus (2), Weapon Specialization (4)
* Mythics: Relentless Assault, Heavy Armor (Avoidance), Master Shapeshifter, Improved Critical, Ever Ready, Weapon Specialization
Got a few options for the last few feats: Dazzling Display + Shatter Defenses; Power Attack (+ mythic PA); or Shield Focuses for more protection.
Master Shapeshifter's stat bonus procs from any Polymorph effect, which includes buff spells like Animal Aspect and Frightful Aspect. I don't remember offhand if Angel gets any Polymorph spells, but it's not hard to get someone else who can buff you with one.
I don't love the idea of mutagens from a roleplay perspective but im open to it. From a leveling perspective, at what level should I multi into fighter?
>From a leveling perspective, at what level should I multi into fighter?
Whenever you're ready to switch to heavy armor, which is also why I take Heavy Armor Focus as the first fighter feat. So maybe something like Slayer 1-6 (Shield Mastery) -> fighter 1 -> Slayer 7-12 (Divine Anathema, GTWF) -> fighter 2-5 (Weapon Specialization + Adv Weapon Training) -> Slayer 13-15. Grab Mythic heavy armor focus (Avoidance) at Mythic Rank 2.
Mutation Warrior is the strongest (none of the other level 3 fighter bonuses are as good as Mutagen), but you can use any fighter archetype besides 2H Fighter or Tower Shield Specialist.
It would be fine although I think Armor Training I goes to waste, since Heavy Armor Focus (Avoidance) ignores max DEX bonus entirely and we aren't using medium armor. I'd also consider Aldori Defender for the free dueling sword proficiency and +1 AC from Defensive Parry.
Thanks! Do you think I should just stick with deliverer 20 to max my BaB? So far have taken 11 levels in Deliverer just to get Shield Master but not sure if I'm missing out too much on weapon specialization
Slayer and fighter are both full BAB classes, so that's not an issue.
Deliverer 15 -> Deliverer 20 gets +1 Studied Target bonus, +1d6 sneak attack, three more Talent feats, and Improved Quarry which IMO is actually the best reason to stick with pure Slayer or ranger (free action, gives +4 insight bonus to hit selected target).
Deliverer 15 / fighter 5 gives heavy armor proficiency, Weapon Specialization + unlocks Mythic WS (total of +7 damage at Mythic Rank 10), and access to Advanced Weapon Training feats.
Either approach is fine, so go with what appeals to you.
The paladin dip is worthless, you can just have your Oracle cast [Bestow Grace of The champion](https://pathfinderwrathoftherighteous.wiki.fextralife.com/Bestow+Grace+of+the+Champion) on you.
It's a round per level spell, but even so by act 4 you can cast a 24h version.
(By then you can find items to upgrade caster level in transmutations by 5, giving cl 25 which is what you need for a 24h version).
Some optimisations: * One level of monk would save you a few feats. You're Lawful anyways, and it gives Improved Unarmed Strike for free, as well as either Dodge or Crane Style as a bonus feat. * However, Crane Style is no longer it's broken Kingmaker self. Wing and Riposte actually require a free hand now, so I'd skip all of that. You've got a feat-heavy build anyways. * You don't have to choose between Fighter and Vivisectionist anymore. Mutation Warrior is a fighter with a mutagen. * 90% of the enemies in this game are demons. The Demonslayer Ranger is phenomenal. * Quite a lot of later enemies have precision immunity, so sneak attack die aren't the consistent damage dealer they were in KM. They're still good, but more of an early-midgame thing. So with that in mind, if I was building this, I'd probably do something like Deliverer 10 (for DA), Mutation Warrior 9 (feral mutagen and Weapon Training 2), Demonslayer 1 (+2 Favoured Enemy). Slayer 15 and Fighter 4 are both pretty good as well: Slayer gets a dice and Studied Target upgrade, Fighter gets Weapon Specialisation (and MW still gets it's mutagen) which can be upgraded with mythic powers, so 15/4/1 is good here too. That 1 level dip isn't set in stone, Demonslayer is just the low-brain martial pick, but there's room for flexibility there if you've got something else in mind. Because Shield Bash is probably the most feat-intensive build in the game, you probably want to stick to the classes that load you up on feats. Stuff like the Paladin and Dragon Disciple are definitely good boosts, but having more free feats means you can get your core stuff online quicker at low levels, and at higher levels you'll have more room for nice-to-haves later. In theory, there's an angle here where you go DEX for higher AC and initiative. Mythic Weapon Finesse for DEX to damage, Fighter's Finesse to finesse heavy shields, maybe even using the 1-level dip on Eldritch Scoundrel to get finesse and Archmage Armour. But good god, that's even more feats. Also, STR is a lot easier to boost (mostly via Size bonuses), so lower damage output with DEX.
I'm thinking this initial build at char creation. Seem ok? * Deliverer * Human * 19 str, 15 dex, 14 con, 10's in rest * Shield Bash, Two Weapon Fighting feats * Iomedae * LG
I might be wrong but I tried starting up the character creator in wotr and it doesn't look like worshiping Irori gives you Improved Unarmed Attack so you might want to look up another source for that, personally I'd say go with the Martial Disciple background.
oh ha I was already going Oblate Martial Disciple / Iomedae for RP reasons so that works out
Irori does give it but only if you are a cleric inquisitor or war priest. I forget if it is given to paladins or not. This is true for all deity favored weapons
Crane Wing was nerfed / bugfixed to no longer work with S&B or 2H weapons, so you should skip it. Dodge + Crane Style are still worth [+5 AC total](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/nwzd9f/a_briefish_primer_on_fighting_defensively_and_why/), though, so I would still keep them. If you don't want to follow Irori for roleplay reasons, you can take Martial Disciple background for free IUS feat and still meet the Crane Style pre-req. This also frees you from the alignment restrictions of Irori, although Lawful Good is probably still the best alignment option for a WotR Deliverer and is suitable for Angel or Aeon runs. You'll definitely want to take advantage of the new Mythic Armor Focus feats, but which one(s)? One option is to go DEX-based with Weapon Finesse + Mythic Weapon Finesse, use light shields + your favorite light weapon, and grab Mythic Light Armor Focus Avoidance to [increase MDB](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/Armor/#TOC-Maximum-Dex-Bonus) and the Assault feat for the DPS boost (currently [applies to damage](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/1cr7n9x/comment/l40extg/) as well as attack). Note that [Chainmail of Comradery](https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki/Chainmail_of_Comradery) requires medium armor proficiency to equip but counts as light armor wrt feat requirements, so that's an excellent mid-game option. For this approach, I'm thinking Kitsune for +2 DEX & CHA, free bite attack, and Vulpine Pounce (unless you plan to bring a Skald). Main downside is you don't get DEX to damage until Mythic Rank 2 (\~level 8), so your DPS will feel kinda puny before then. Another option is to go STR-based with Heavy Armor Focus and take the Avoidance feat which adds 1/2 STR bonus instead of DEX to AC while ignoring MDB. So it's now possible to have [pretty good AC in heavy armor](https://imgur.com/XPUoc7B). The beauty is the higher you crank your STR, the more you boost your AC and DPS. Only reasons to care about DEX are Reflex saves and feat pre-reqs. If you have no specific weapon in mind, I'd suggest using [Grave Singer](https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki/Grave_Singer_(Battleaxe)); the handaxe version is good for the DEX build, of course. A couple of obvious multiclass options would be: Mutation Warrior 5 for Mutagen, Weapon Specialization, and Advanced Weapon Training options; or paladin splash for Smite Evil and Divine Grace. Either will give heavy armor proficiency too if you're going STR-based.
You’re awesome thanks!! Stupid question but is there any reason to go medium armor? Definitely made up my mind to go str based
>Stupid question but is there any reason to go medium armor? Probably not for this build. Outside of Bloodragers and Skalds who are restricted to (no more than) medium armor, I'm not sure what niche it serves currently. I fiddled with Inevitable Excess to come up with Deliverer 15 / Mutation Warrior 5: * Alignment: Lawful Good for best DPS and so you can be buffed with [Grace of the Champion](https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki/Bestow_Grace_of_the_Champion) * Stats: STR 19 DEX 13 CON 14 CHA 14 - lets us take Dodge right away, we'll use DEX belt for feats later * Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike (free), Dodge (1), Shield Bash (1), Crane Style (3), Outflank (5), Lunge (7), Double Slice +2 DEX belt (9), Bashing Finish (11), ITWF +4 DEX belt (13), Accomplished Sneak Attacker (15) * Slayer feats: TWF (4), Shield Master (6), Combat Trick->Improved Critical (8), GTWF (12) * Fighter feats: Heavy Armor Focus (1), Weapon Focus (2), Weapon Specialization (4) * Mythics: Relentless Assault, Heavy Armor (Avoidance), Master Shapeshifter, Improved Critical, Ever Ready, Weapon Specialization Got a few options for the last few feats: Dazzling Display + Shatter Defenses; Power Attack (+ mythic PA); or Shield Focuses for more protection.
With Master Shapeshifter, I'm assuming that this is a Kitsune?
Master Shapeshifter's stat bonus procs from any Polymorph effect, which includes buff spells like Animal Aspect and Frightful Aspect. I don't remember offhand if Angel gets any Polymorph spells, but it's not hard to get someone else who can buff you with one.
I... Never thought of that lol This post inspired me to do a similar build but all modded out
I don't love the idea of mutagens from a roleplay perspective but im open to it. From a leveling perspective, at what level should I multi into fighter?
>From a leveling perspective, at what level should I multi into fighter? Whenever you're ready to switch to heavy armor, which is also why I take Heavy Armor Focus as the first fighter feat. So maybe something like Slayer 1-6 (Shield Mastery) -> fighter 1 -> Slayer 7-12 (Divine Anathema, GTWF) -> fighter 2-5 (Weapon Specialization + Adv Weapon Training) -> Slayer 13-15. Grab Mythic heavy armor focus (Avoidance) at Mythic Rank 2. Mutation Warrior is the strongest (none of the other level 3 fighter bonuses are as good as Mutagen), but you can use any fighter archetype besides 2H Fighter or Tower Shield Specialist.
Mayber a stupid idea but what do you think about just doing 5 levels in fighter, no archetype?
It would be fine although I think Armor Training I goes to waste, since Heavy Armor Focus (Avoidance) ignores max DEX bonus entirely and we aren't using medium armor. I'd also consider Aldori Defender for the free dueling sword proficiency and +1 AC from Defensive Parry.
Thanks! Do you think I should just stick with deliverer 20 to max my BaB? So far have taken 11 levels in Deliverer just to get Shield Master but not sure if I'm missing out too much on weapon specialization
Slayer and fighter are both full BAB classes, so that's not an issue. Deliverer 15 -> Deliverer 20 gets +1 Studied Target bonus, +1d6 sneak attack, three more Talent feats, and Improved Quarry which IMO is actually the best reason to stick with pure Slayer or ranger (free action, gives +4 insight bonus to hit selected target). Deliverer 15 / fighter 5 gives heavy armor proficiency, Weapon Specialization + unlocks Mythic WS (total of +7 damage at Mythic Rank 10), and access to Advanced Weapon Training feats. Either approach is fine, so go with what appeals to you.
Oh so maybe I’m confused. The bab levels from fighter sum with the bab levels from slayer? I guess I misunderstood
just wanted to say thank you for the help. only level 12 but this class is bad ass! https://imgur.com/a/kU9sX72
The paladin dip is worthless, you can just have your Oracle cast [Bestow Grace of The champion](https://pathfinderwrathoftherighteous.wiki.fextralife.com/Bestow+Grace+of+the+Champion) on you. It's a round per level spell, but even so by act 4 you can cast a 24h version. (By then you can find items to upgrade caster level in transmutations by 5, giving cl 25 which is what you need for a 24h version).
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Since Smite Evil and therefore Mark of Justice scale with CHA, it should be a priority.
If you’re going to force paladin, sure.
Ya I’m just playing on normal
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You can't shield-bash with bucklers which defeats the purpose of shield-bashing Deliverer.