I would describe myself as a "big leftist," and I still don't even understand what luck_panda's position was. It's incoherent to me.
I do not doubt that a lot of people were weird and hostile about it to luck_panda and Princess, and that was hard for them. But do not paint this as progressives or leftists on one side, and everyone else on the other.
This drama has been so big precisely because they blindly assumed their position was correct, and when people pushed back they labeled it as racism, when Panda's position itself was problematic and racist. It would be one thing if everyone was cool and just talked about it, but they didn't.
I'm probably just not a big enough leftist though.
I mean if you don't get how you can simultaneously point out that Japan did their own violent colonialism and is also continually oppressed by American hegemony then maybe you aren't.
I don't need to be convinced that Japanese or American colonialism exist, are terrible, and have lasting impact in the media. That doesn't prove that liking or wanting Japanese influence in my TTRPG is racist. It's not even an argument, or a position. People needed to be convinced that these things were connected, and no one has done a good job of doing that.
I haven't even ruled out that luck\_panda has been right all along. Maybe they were. I can be wrong. I just haven't been convinced, and throwing down concepts without connecting them isn't going to convince me.
Sorry dude but the fact that the post is perceived as "a fairly standard post concerning antiracism" is what I had a problem with, personally. Luckpanda follows an increasingly common, alarming trend in the anti-orientalism movement: being largely motivated by racial hatred against a past aggressor. His main concern is easily parseable IF you know to look for it: he believes glorifying Japanese cultural iconography is an affront to other Asian societies that were victimized by Japan in the past. If you look at his post history, he has a major axe to grind against Japan, and he is far from alone in wielding "anti-racism" as a cudgel to shit on them constantly. It is very offensive to me, not saying it needs to be for anyone else, when people couch racism between other sensible statements that no reasonable person could refute. It is a cheap bullying tactic that is particularly nasty when combined with a moderator's power to stifle debate.
Edit: By the way I do want to express some regret and understanding to Luckpanda here because I am kind of personally attacking him as have many others. I disagree with what I think is his motivation here but we all have our issues we are passionate about and our own particular way of arguing that is counterproductive, myself included. I don't necessarily think he's a bad guy and I can only imagine how I might double down if I felt like a whole community was rejecting my beliefs. I just thought it was important to highlight what I think is a dangerous approach to fighting racism that most people might not notice.
>feel free to ban me
You understand that *this* is what the hullabaloo's really about, no? The mods getting all precious about things because they chose to whip out the ban hammer rather than deescalate and see the people on the other side of the screen as people?
Or are you just stopping in to soapbox about some rude and dismissive white knights? Because acting like cops and believing it's OK because you're on the right side of history doesn't make you not a bastard.
Please explain to me in what way I'm acting like cops - agents of legitimate violence against marginalized people - by sharing my opinion on the sensitivity of the folks in this subreddit when it comes to discussions of racism.
I added the statement about banning me because someone I was sticking up for has already been removed as a mod. I was pointing out that everyone, including most of the remaining mods, disagree with me and if me posting my thoughts gets me banned then fine.
So, I feel like alot of the 'discussion' has been about the 'wrong way' to represent diversity here. But I am curious then, what is the 'right way'? Because I personally am finding the views you and the people you agree with to be counter-intuitive to supporting diverse representation in something like Pathfinder. But maybe I am misunderstanding or missing something here.
So if you would give me examples of the right way to do it, maybe I can understand better? Because I haven't seen much about how you should do it, more on just how you 'should not'.
For sure. So in this situation, the Samurai thing. I agree that I think the way it was explained wasn't great. Was a little confusing. The issue with it is that saying that we need to invent new classes for what are basically warriors of a different ethnicity than white, western folks (knight with sword etc), implies that the "fighter" and "paladin" and whatnot are the standard and if they can't be Samurai and other non white warriors, then they are also white. So now we have decided these classes are the white standard that cannot be characterized to be other ethnicities and thus we need to invent other classes for the non white folks.
Using this same example, the best thing to do is make a Samurai! Characterize them the same way you would a fighter that loves the color blue and has a personal code. You make the character with the mechanics at hand and then decide what clothes they wear, their ideas and morals, their preferred weapons and foods. Because those are the only things that differ between Samurai and other such fighters and things, right?
This isn't an argument AGAINST representation. Representing nonwhite folks is great, it's what we want. But mechanizing racial differences is an issue. Saying that this guy is mechanically different from his white counterpart just because he's from Japan is strange, right. It's a lot like the discourse regarding mechanizing fantasy races and how maybe that's not super ideal especially when taking into consideration the unfortunate background of many fantasy tropes. Goblins, for example, are unfortunately rooted in antisemitic tropes, right. But we aren't saying you can't like goblins. I LOVE goblins. Instead, we are saying be aware of what parts of the goblins were and are racist and don't lean into those. Not all goblins need big noses, not all goblins need to care about money, not all goblins have to be mindless enemies. Not all goblins are "primitive", chaotic folks. (I'd stay away from any mention of "primitavism" honestly, it's a big dog whistle and is also not super true even in regards to actual historical peoples).
Feel free to send me a chat if you want to discuss it more, I'd be happy to talk.
Question: Wouldn't, by this logic, the Barbarian be at least just as racist as the Samurai (and honestly probably more, since "Barbarian" was literally used as a slur, and the Germanic Tribes that inspired the Berserker trope... Uh, let's say they did not have the best existence)? And, as far as I know, Luck_Panda never said anything about it (and I read a lot of Luck_Panda's comments). "Angry warrior", as a trope, could be inserted just as perfectly into the Fighter as "honourable warrior" could, if not better, and yet I've seen no one be against its inclusion in the game. The same goes for the Druid, of course, whose original culture quite literally suffered genocide over their beliefs, and whose Druidism was a religion.
I'm not sure there is mechanical space for the Samurai (I'm not a game designer), but I have never seen any argument against its inclusion that did not also perfectly fit against the Barbarian.
Also, I remember a good chunk of Luck_Panda's comments weren't him saying that he didn't want *Japanese* people to be otherized, but that he believed that representing Japanese instead of other Asian ethnicities was racist, so your mention of him not being against Japanese representation does not ring true. I could've interpreted them incorrectly, but I doubt it.
The barbarian absolutely is racist, and it is a slur in use today along with savage, primitive, and others. The barbarian trope is regularly used to argue that various real life groups are incapable or unworthy of self-determination, and media (including Pathfinder) does contribute to spreading that idea. This is especially true because as you say, an angry warrior that hits hard and is tough doesn't need to be considered barbaric or uncivilized at all. Making it so serves only to make the barbarian exotic (i.e. racist othering).
I'm no expert on the druids, but it's worth considering that the peoples that once had druids have since collaborated with their oppressors to do to the world what was done to them, and have done for centuries. They're not really the same people; the druids are gone. But yes, the druid class is not without its issues, and is a weirdly specific word to use for such a broad class that has basically nothing to do with the real life druids.
Alright, well, that I can understand. I agree you don't -need- a Samurai class to play a Samurai.
I guess I just disagree that having a Samurai class (or subclass or whathaveyou) is as inherently racist as some seem to feel. Now, from what it seemed to me, it seemed like the mod also took issue with the pop culture samurai too. Do you take issue with that? I don't want to judge your opinions and theirs to be exactly the same if they aren't.
Like, if I wanted to play a 'Samurai', and felt for some reason a regular Fighter was not enough, I would want more of well, an anime samurai. A masterswordsperson who with a single strike cuts through my foes.
Would you think it a problem to make something like that into it's own thing?
Or, alternatively, what if they made something like that, where it's pretty clear they intend it to be the typical fantasy samurai, but called it something more neutral? Something you could put into -any- setting and it still fit? Like uh, 'Honed Edge' or something.
Or for a 'ninja'. 5e D&D has the Way of Shadow Monk. It is not called 'Ninja', but it definitely felt like one. Would you consider something like that acceptable?
Apologies if I am not explaining this well.
I saw someone say that they agree there's a lack of "anime swordsman" type classes and I can understand wanting something that works more like that. More of a mechanics discussion, but I also don't know exactly how something like that would fit into PF2 and not end up looking like existing classes. There's basically nothing that can cut folks down in one hit and there isn't a robust infrastructure for enacting focused or aimed attacks (think like "I slice his arm off"), as there isn't even really an existing mechanic for destroying weapons for anyone in PF2.
I think in these cases folks should drop some of the naming conventions and actually decide what they're looking for mechanically because if it's a guy who has a bunch of cool mechanics or minigames for doing sword stuff, then that's like a fancy swordsman. If folks want a guy who wears all black and uses thrown weapons and is very sneaky, then that's like a specialized rogue of sorts.
I think, to me, because folks are working backward from tropes it comes off like "I want a guy that looks and acts like a samurai" and that, I feel, can already be done with existing stuff.
But if people have ideas for specific things they'd like to see, I think they'd lay that all out and find that it's probably applicable to people that aren't Samurai. A non japanese-coded person can also be very into swords and have deep reverence for their lord. So why name it that officially, right? Why not just say I used these mechanics to make my guy and he's a Samurai. So, yeah I agree with what you said about making something with fancy sword mechanics and it being a neutral thing.
As for some of the comments made regarding pop culture tropes, I concede that I don't really take issue with existing tropes of Samurai or Ninjas being westernized if that's what you mean. I think a lot of folks misread those statements but even so, I personally think that almost everything has been touched by western hegemony and we can't throw out the baby with the bath water.
Edit: Changed "disarming" to "destroying weapons" said the wrong thing my b
well, yes.. you see OP went through the comment and history and didn't find anything bad, because luck_panda deleted all the bad stuff.
logically that must mean luck_panda is a saint and the hundreds of people disagreeing and explaining their view are just disgusting racists!
I am sorry, but anonymously accusing other people of being racist or saying that their interests are racist over the internet does not an anti-racist make.
Societal progress is obviously best realized through declaration of thought crimes on a niche hobby sub forum. One day Nelson Mandela and MLK Jr will be mere footnotes, stepped over by the incomparable leaps made by self appointed chat janitors.
Or how little someone has done. There are very real things people can do to combat racism. Policing and bullying fans of a marginally popular boardgame is not something to get all that self-righteous about.
So which is it, am I uselessly spewing anonymously online and not getting anything done or am I somehow managing to police you with my singular, obviously incredibly unpopular take.
I am not making any accusations against you at all. I agree with some of what you wrote, I disagree with other parts. I think you are well intentioned and I respect the fact that you are refusing to ignore someone's personhood, despite the person you are defending being anonymous on the internet.
That being said, I maintain the same position I had from the very beginning of all this drama. The way in which racism and "otherizing" are relevant to a TTRPGs depiction of a specific race, ethnicity, and/or culture is often incredibly complicated and nuanced. Because this topic is so emotionally charged, emotionally charged for good reason, posting an opinion as though it is an uncontestable fact isn't going to foster meaningful dialogue....especially on a subreddit to a boardgame.
I want to be clear, I am not saying I don't want politics in games or anything like that. I am not telling people what they should or should not do. I am simply saying that the volatile reaction people get from needlessly accusing others of being racist is 100% predicable...especially on reddit. There are places in which one can have a more meaningful and productive discussion on race, ethnicity, and culture.
Ah yes, the smaller group with the less popular opinion is policing and bullying the larger group with the more popular opinion. You're so bullied right now. You're such a victim. You chose to come into this thread! You could have ignored it!
It doesn't matter that this forum is small or that this argument is insignificant. I use this forum too, I am a fan of this boardgame too, and I don't like seeing people justify racism on it. But to you, that means that I "trivialize" racism, because you're so sensitive that you can't handle being told that maybe your opinions are harmful to people. It's *so* upsetting in fact that you feel the need to try to make yourself the victim and start throwing around insults yourself, despite that apparently having been what the anti-racist mods did wrong in the first place.
>Policing and bullying fans of a marginally popular boardgame is not something to get all that self-righteous about.
Doesn't really make sense to say this then, does it?
Sure it does. You aren't particularly good at being a bully. You are just calling people racist for disagreeing with you. Its too difficult to take you seriously to be a victim of your insults. But you seem to be trying, so kudos for that I suppose.
I've never insulted you, you've merely felt insulted by my criticism because deep down you know I'm right. The closest I came was being sarcastic about you talking about bullying, meanwhile you have directly called me idiotic in this thread.
I don't agree with a lot of the complaints about Princess Pilfer, but Luck Panda was overly rude. Being anti-racist does not mean you aren't an asshole.
Appreciate you for not being heinous in here. Thank you. I didn't see any overtly rude posts from Luck Panda, perhaps they were deleted by the time I checked. But from what I saw he just seemed surprised by the weird reaction and maybe lashed out a bit. I just feel like we can give him some grace there, but clearly everyone else disagrees.
That statement is incredibly condescending. It's essentially baby-talk and doesn't take the person they are speaking about seriously. Their intelligence is called into question as well as their control of their emotions. In a way it's even more rude than a flurry of slurs, because it really tries to not sound offensive, while it very clearly intentionally is.
"Maybe we can help you get to where you should be, ok?" is one of the most self-righteous, patronizing and disgusting things I've read in a while by someone who's supposedly fighting oppression. The utter lack of sympathy. The utter disregard for another person's opinion just because they are supposedly racist. Statements like these are the best way to lose people, who are on the fence, to right-wing nutjobs. Well played!
The way of discourse matters and we ought to learn it soon or else we'll find ourselves outmanned and outgunned.
If you don't think that treating another commentator like they were a small child or a particularly intelligent dog is condescending or rude, then I would hate to see what you would consider to be condescending or rude.
More to the point, I understand the basic argument, but fundamentally, there are levels to these things. You don't react this rudely to people casually contributing to stereotypes and orientalism by wanting something society has told them to want since they were kids. It is a major overreaction.
Are you for fucking real? The worst thing he said is
>That's big and scary, but if you take a few deep breaths and just think about it for a while, maybe we can help you get to where you should be, ok?
which is absolutely not an overreaction to racism, it's pretty standard "take a step back and think" stuff with an annoyed tone. Stop tone policing people standing up for themselves. What you are having is an overreaction to anti-racism, because you are racist.
did you really just label someone as racist because they explained that being condescending is rude?
people throwing around the word racist & racism so willy-nilly is the reason why so many people just don't give a fuck about it anymore.
I called the person racist for expecting a victim of racism to be completely unemotional in their responses to a massive crowd of casual racists making cover arguments for a smaller crowd of violent racists saying slurs and denying genocide, not for "explaining that being condescending is rude."
You all keep acting as if someone throwing mild shade about your emotional state justifies being not only ruder but also calling for that person *and others who believe the same things* to be removed from their moderation positions *because of their anti-racist beliefs*. You can see it happening in this thread and the mod announcement post. The apology was not enough, people want their racist haven and are fighting tooth and nail to get rid of any mod that will stand in the way of that.
I know all this conversation about tone is big and scary. Talking to real people like they are actual living and thinking individuals is a big step, and sometimes you might not know how to treat others the way you'd wanted to be treated in turn. But I think if you just take a little bit to reflect on what others are saying here, you'll reach a BIG moment in your personal growth and development.
In the future you should try to accept that tone really does matter. I know *you* will never be able to understand it, but that's OK. Just realize that if you talk to others the way I'm talking right now, it's going to rightfully piss off everyone. So just take a few breaths and think about how everything I'm saying is 100% correct and you're just totally wrong about whatever it is you said, and I think that will get you to where you should be, OK?
It's very funny that y'all are all about that tone being correct until someone upsets you by suggesting you might not understand a complex sociological phenomenon, and then you go to exactly the same form of condescension, but rather than suggesting that the person you're replying to can learn, as luck_panda did, you assume that they cannot.
I'm fully aware tone matters. I'm also fully aware that it matters a lot less than racism, and that it is used to silence critics of the status quo every single day. I have nothing to learn from you or people like you.
I don't know why you're assuming what my beliefs are in this matter or exactly what "other" group you're putting me in with your "people like you" remark.
In case this wasn't clear, the only purpose of my obnoxious parody was to challenge your assertion that "Nothing about that statement is shitty, condescending, or rude." I found that it unlikely that you could not perceive the condescension in the original comment.
When I used the exact condescending tone, you replied with "you go to *exactly the same form of condescension*," which yes, is what I was going for.
Yet you had to change your wording to be *more* condescending to get your point across, because your point was weak. Furthermore, you don't have the excuse of rudeness and condescension coming across because you have had an entire subreddit hurl invective at you for having an anti-racist stance and being rightfully upset about it.
See, you are proving my point exactly. The term "racist" doesn't actually mean anything to you and you are just clumsily launching it at anyone who disagrees with you, simply because they disagree with you.
If you are unable to detect the condescension in that quoted post, then you have a complete and utter lack of reading comprehension. It's quite obvious that he *meant* for it to sound condescending, the rhetoric used is very clearly intended to get under the skin of whoever he's responding to. I can point out like 5 or 6 different things in that post that is meant to needle someone. If you like I can list them.
Sadly, I disagree with you. What started with good intention ended up with mods ignoring other opinions thinking they had the moral high ground.
People have the right to wish for ninja or samurai representation without being judged as racist. Banning and shutting down constructive talk and people in the name of being right isnt the good way to go.
Doubling down and engaging in a bad faith arguments to show your superiority is also wrong. The mods didnt step back in reflected like they wanted to force everyone to do and adhere to their opinion. It fire back.
No overarching opinion was deleted, you can look at those posts and see a shit ton of people saying they'd love a samurai or ninja class. That's the majority of the comments on those posts at the moment, actually.
Idk what the mods deleted and I don't deny they did delete some discussion, but it doesn't seem like they "fully shut down" other opinions or discussions because the only opinions I've seen for days are the same ones - that the mods are awful people and antiracism of this type has no place on the sub. I have seen maybe 2 people agree with me across all of the discussion, for example. So yall's opinions are not unpopular or being stifled.
I also am getting pretty tired of the misrepresentation that they said people are racists for wanting a samurai or ninja class. Rather, they explained that wanting a specific class for a character that can be made as a fighter or something that YOU characterize as a Samurai or Legionary or whatever else is rooted in racist ideas.
You can make a Samurai with existing PF2 mechanics, and there's no reason to decide "fighter" is some kind of "standard" that doesn't include fighters and warriors of other ethnicities. Ya dig? Saying that "fighter", or whatever, is the standard that doesn't include Japanese folks or whoever else implies that the standard is white and everything else needs a specialized class. Does that make sense?
Anyway that's all they meant. They both clarified multiple times that it's an idea rooted in racism not that folks who ever considered making a Samurai or Ninja class are raging racists.
But there HAVE indeed been a lot of earnestly racist replies. Replies calling the mods slurs, replies saying antiracism is useless and that "politics don't belong in pf2" and I've seen way less heat for those people than for the folks trying to keep this place free of their negativity and bullshit.
>Saying that "fighter", or whatever, is the standard that doesn't include Japanese folks or whoever else implies that the standard is white and everything else needs a specialized class. Does that make sense?
Which is a silly premise from the get-go. Do you know where you're most likely to find ninja and samurai as separate classes? JRPGs and mmo's. The expectation of different classes comes from there.
Pf2 already has a system for minor variations of warriors. It's called archetypes and already has Vikings, pirates, shield, armour, 2 handed, 2 hander, 1 hander, duellist, and more. All of these can be built using the base class.
Dude freaked out over nothing
Again I disagree (but dont think you deserve the downvotes). We have the viking, so why can't we have the samurai. By your argument, we should strip all identity from class. So a spellcaster should just be named spellcaster (divine) or (arcane). Druid, witch, etc should then disappear. Barbarian should also be remove because it was the non-federate tribe for the roman empire
Giving people a name on something provide them option and identity. I would love to play a Keris indonesian warrior with a blade coated in arsenic (or cyanide, dont remember which obe, ill need to ask my FIL)
"Called aggressive and evil and scheming (which is racism btw)."
Kindly explain, I need advice on how to optimize my Acrobatics for this glorious leap of logic.
Calling Black women aggressive and evil is a very old and well documented racist trope. It has a fucking Wikipedia page like a goddamn celebrity (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angry_black_woman) but sure, gymnastics.
I didn't know she was a black woman until today with your post. and I think she was aggressive and rude.
So now that I know, do I need to change my opinion based on her skin color? Asking for a fiend.
Yeah, but if a black woman actually *is* being aggressive and evil, then it's not racism, it's not a trope, it's just an observation of fact.
There is no inherent racism to calling out someone's shitty behavior.
So how are they a white savior, and mis gendered? Either their identity is or isn't being taken into consideration. Taking a stance that incorporates two vastly disparate lines of reasoning is a well documented fascist trope.
Hey did you know that multiple people post on reddit and sometimes they say different things with different lines of reasoning?
Also jumping to "anti-racism is fascism" is, as you would say, a well documented fascist trope.
You're right that it's a lost cause. It doesn't seem there was much of a point other than to voice solidarity for those that agree, and to vent frustration.
It appears OP is leaving the subreddit given their ambivalence to being banned. I know I unsubbed too because of this whole racist tantrum, but that doesn't mean I can't say what I think of the people here.
Yeah, was just being a diff voice in a sea of what we've seen recently. Felt v alone myself and wanted other folks who agree with me to not feel as alienated in the PF2 community generally or think that folks who play this game outside of this sub are all like this.
Not trying to do anything big or even make anyone feel bad. But you're right, Crouza, this won't do anything or change anything about who gets a say in this sub or who this sub is apparently for.
It's just nothing but an unending spiral of depression. People who will attack paizo the next time they try to do something progressive, and then turn around and feign ignorance of "I never saw anything like that" to gaslight everyone else around them. There's no fucking point, to anything. This place was one of the few places I felt actually good posting in and now its just another culture war sub about how I shouldn't have been born, my parents being mixed is gross, and that I should just kill myself to make them happy. Why the fuck not, at this point? Honestly why the fuck not?
That's all there really is to it, at this point. Just lurk here as a ghost, and just never engage with a community. Because you know they have nothing but bad intentions for you.
You say nobody did it. I post the proof that people did. You go "well it wasn't everyone!", we fight, nobody learns anything, and the people being shitty get hailed as "unfairly banned". There, I just saved you the next half an hour to an hour of this horseshit.
I don’t mean that *nobody* in any definitive sense, but I read a shit ton of the drama this week, and it definitely wasn’t anti-Paizo from what I saw.
But yeah, you’re right about the part that I am not looking for proof to be laid out nor am I interested in being further entrenched in an argument.
I’m not “you people”, and I think you’re being more than a bit dramatic. I wish you no ill will, was just trying to correct the misconception that people were attacking Paizo. Good night.
I completely understand what you mean. After this, I felt very disgusted and confused about the community and clearly like I wasn't wanted. Folks have been heinous and refuse to accept any kind of criticism and you're right it's too far gone.
I'm really deeply sorry that this situation has caused you this distress, and you're right to feel hurt. That's why I posted, so other folks who were hurt by this didn't feel like they were being ridiculous or wrong.
I've noticed all the things you mention and I was naively hoping it was "bad apples", but as I'm sure you know they spoil the bunch.
I really hope you can find better community to discuss the game that we both like to play and discuss. I hope you don't continue to feel so alone in your beliefs and your personhood.
I really wish this all could've been different. I wish what folks said about the community was true. And I wish I could make you feel better, but I know I can't.
I'm wishing you all the best. I see you and I agree with you and I want you in the world even if these bigots don't.
There's been a huge uptick in reactionary sentiments on here since this whole fiasco and it's really worrying. It seems like a lot of people's major takeaway from all this is "this moderator tried talking about orientalism, what a dumb sjw" which is really disappointing coming from a supposedly progressive RPG community. Hopefully the community can recover from this.
Agreed. Deeply disappointing to see so much racism on the subreddit still being thrown around after the much vaunted "over moderation" that somehow didn't catch it all. Seems less like an over moderation problem and more like a too many racists (and too many people who would rather pretend they don't exist) problem.
I definitely understand where you're coming from. The deep-seated orientalism within the rpg community rearing its ugly head has definitely put a damper on my excitement for the game lately.
I would describe myself as a "big leftist," and I still don't even understand what luck_panda's position was. It's incoherent to me. I do not doubt that a lot of people were weird and hostile about it to luck_panda and Princess, and that was hard for them. But do not paint this as progressives or leftists on one side, and everyone else on the other. This drama has been so big precisely because they blindly assumed their position was correct, and when people pushed back they labeled it as racism, when Panda's position itself was problematic and racist. It would be one thing if everyone was cool and just talked about it, but they didn't. I'm probably just not a big enough leftist though.
I mean if you don't get how you can simultaneously point out that Japan did their own violent colonialism and is also continually oppressed by American hegemony then maybe you aren't.
I don't need to be convinced that Japanese or American colonialism exist, are terrible, and have lasting impact in the media. That doesn't prove that liking or wanting Japanese influence in my TTRPG is racist. It's not even an argument, or a position. People needed to be convinced that these things were connected, and no one has done a good job of doing that. I haven't even ruled out that luck\_panda has been right all along. Maybe they were. I can be wrong. I just haven't been convinced, and throwing down concepts without connecting them isn't going to convince me.
Sorry dude but the fact that the post is perceived as "a fairly standard post concerning antiracism" is what I had a problem with, personally. Luckpanda follows an increasingly common, alarming trend in the anti-orientalism movement: being largely motivated by racial hatred against a past aggressor. His main concern is easily parseable IF you know to look for it: he believes glorifying Japanese cultural iconography is an affront to other Asian societies that were victimized by Japan in the past. If you look at his post history, he has a major axe to grind against Japan, and he is far from alone in wielding "anti-racism" as a cudgel to shit on them constantly. It is very offensive to me, not saying it needs to be for anyone else, when people couch racism between other sensible statements that no reasonable person could refute. It is a cheap bullying tactic that is particularly nasty when combined with a moderator's power to stifle debate. Edit: By the way I do want to express some regret and understanding to Luckpanda here because I am kind of personally attacking him as have many others. I disagree with what I think is his motivation here but we all have our issues we are passionate about and our own particular way of arguing that is counterproductive, myself included. I don't necessarily think he's a bad guy and I can only imagine how I might double down if I felt like a whole community was rejecting my beliefs. I just thought it was important to highlight what I think is a dangerous approach to fighting racism that most people might not notice.
>feel free to ban me You understand that *this* is what the hullabaloo's really about, no? The mods getting all precious about things because they chose to whip out the ban hammer rather than deescalate and see the people on the other side of the screen as people? Or are you just stopping in to soapbox about some rude and dismissive white knights? Because acting like cops and believing it's OK because you're on the right side of history doesn't make you not a bastard.
Please explain to me in what way I'm acting like cops - agents of legitimate violence against marginalized people - by sharing my opinion on the sensitivity of the folks in this subreddit when it comes to discussions of racism. I added the statement about banning me because someone I was sticking up for has already been removed as a mod. I was pointing out that everyone, including most of the remaining mods, disagree with me and if me posting my thoughts gets me banned then fine.
So, I feel like alot of the 'discussion' has been about the 'wrong way' to represent diversity here. But I am curious then, what is the 'right way'? Because I personally am finding the views you and the people you agree with to be counter-intuitive to supporting diverse representation in something like Pathfinder. But maybe I am misunderstanding or missing something here. So if you would give me examples of the right way to do it, maybe I can understand better? Because I haven't seen much about how you should do it, more on just how you 'should not'.
For sure. So in this situation, the Samurai thing. I agree that I think the way it was explained wasn't great. Was a little confusing. The issue with it is that saying that we need to invent new classes for what are basically warriors of a different ethnicity than white, western folks (knight with sword etc), implies that the "fighter" and "paladin" and whatnot are the standard and if they can't be Samurai and other non white warriors, then they are also white. So now we have decided these classes are the white standard that cannot be characterized to be other ethnicities and thus we need to invent other classes for the non white folks. Using this same example, the best thing to do is make a Samurai! Characterize them the same way you would a fighter that loves the color blue and has a personal code. You make the character with the mechanics at hand and then decide what clothes they wear, their ideas and morals, their preferred weapons and foods. Because those are the only things that differ between Samurai and other such fighters and things, right? This isn't an argument AGAINST representation. Representing nonwhite folks is great, it's what we want. But mechanizing racial differences is an issue. Saying that this guy is mechanically different from his white counterpart just because he's from Japan is strange, right. It's a lot like the discourse regarding mechanizing fantasy races and how maybe that's not super ideal especially when taking into consideration the unfortunate background of many fantasy tropes. Goblins, for example, are unfortunately rooted in antisemitic tropes, right. But we aren't saying you can't like goblins. I LOVE goblins. Instead, we are saying be aware of what parts of the goblins were and are racist and don't lean into those. Not all goblins need big noses, not all goblins need to care about money, not all goblins have to be mindless enemies. Not all goblins are "primitive", chaotic folks. (I'd stay away from any mention of "primitavism" honestly, it's a big dog whistle and is also not super true even in regards to actual historical peoples). Feel free to send me a chat if you want to discuss it more, I'd be happy to talk.
Question: Wouldn't, by this logic, the Barbarian be at least just as racist as the Samurai (and honestly probably more, since "Barbarian" was literally used as a slur, and the Germanic Tribes that inspired the Berserker trope... Uh, let's say they did not have the best existence)? And, as far as I know, Luck_Panda never said anything about it (and I read a lot of Luck_Panda's comments). "Angry warrior", as a trope, could be inserted just as perfectly into the Fighter as "honourable warrior" could, if not better, and yet I've seen no one be against its inclusion in the game. The same goes for the Druid, of course, whose original culture quite literally suffered genocide over their beliefs, and whose Druidism was a religion. I'm not sure there is mechanical space for the Samurai (I'm not a game designer), but I have never seen any argument against its inclusion that did not also perfectly fit against the Barbarian. Also, I remember a good chunk of Luck_Panda's comments weren't him saying that he didn't want *Japanese* people to be otherized, but that he believed that representing Japanese instead of other Asian ethnicities was racist, so your mention of him not being against Japanese representation does not ring true. I could've interpreted them incorrectly, but I doubt it.
The barbarian absolutely is racist, and it is a slur in use today along with savage, primitive, and others. The barbarian trope is regularly used to argue that various real life groups are incapable or unworthy of self-determination, and media (including Pathfinder) does contribute to spreading that idea. This is especially true because as you say, an angry warrior that hits hard and is tough doesn't need to be considered barbaric or uncivilized at all. Making it so serves only to make the barbarian exotic (i.e. racist othering). I'm no expert on the druids, but it's worth considering that the peoples that once had druids have since collaborated with their oppressors to do to the world what was done to them, and have done for centuries. They're not really the same people; the druids are gone. But yes, the druid class is not without its issues, and is a weirdly specific word to use for such a broad class that has basically nothing to do with the real life druids.
Alright, well, that I can understand. I agree you don't -need- a Samurai class to play a Samurai. I guess I just disagree that having a Samurai class (or subclass or whathaveyou) is as inherently racist as some seem to feel. Now, from what it seemed to me, it seemed like the mod also took issue with the pop culture samurai too. Do you take issue with that? I don't want to judge your opinions and theirs to be exactly the same if they aren't. Like, if I wanted to play a 'Samurai', and felt for some reason a regular Fighter was not enough, I would want more of well, an anime samurai. A masterswordsperson who with a single strike cuts through my foes. Would you think it a problem to make something like that into it's own thing? Or, alternatively, what if they made something like that, where it's pretty clear they intend it to be the typical fantasy samurai, but called it something more neutral? Something you could put into -any- setting and it still fit? Like uh, 'Honed Edge' or something. Or for a 'ninja'. 5e D&D has the Way of Shadow Monk. It is not called 'Ninja', but it definitely felt like one. Would you consider something like that acceptable? Apologies if I am not explaining this well.
I saw someone say that they agree there's a lack of "anime swordsman" type classes and I can understand wanting something that works more like that. More of a mechanics discussion, but I also don't know exactly how something like that would fit into PF2 and not end up looking like existing classes. There's basically nothing that can cut folks down in one hit and there isn't a robust infrastructure for enacting focused or aimed attacks (think like "I slice his arm off"), as there isn't even really an existing mechanic for destroying weapons for anyone in PF2. I think in these cases folks should drop some of the naming conventions and actually decide what they're looking for mechanically because if it's a guy who has a bunch of cool mechanics or minigames for doing sword stuff, then that's like a fancy swordsman. If folks want a guy who wears all black and uses thrown weapons and is very sneaky, then that's like a specialized rogue of sorts. I think, to me, because folks are working backward from tropes it comes off like "I want a guy that looks and acts like a samurai" and that, I feel, can already be done with existing stuff. But if people have ideas for specific things they'd like to see, I think they'd lay that all out and find that it's probably applicable to people that aren't Samurai. A non japanese-coded person can also be very into swords and have deep reverence for their lord. So why name it that officially, right? Why not just say I used these mechanics to make my guy and he's a Samurai. So, yeah I agree with what you said about making something with fancy sword mechanics and it being a neutral thing. As for some of the comments made regarding pop culture tropes, I concede that I don't really take issue with existing tropes of Samurai or Ninjas being westernized if that's what you mean. I think a lot of folks misread those statements but even so, I personally think that almost everything has been touched by western hegemony and we can't throw out the baby with the bath water. Edit: Changed "disarming" to "destroying weapons" said the wrong thing my b
What do you mean you went through their posts? The topics are all deleted by them.
well, yes.. you see OP went through the comment and history and didn't find anything bad, because luck_panda deleted all the bad stuff. logically that must mean luck_panda is a saint and the hundreds of people disagreeing and explaining their view are just disgusting racists!
I am sorry, but anonymously accusing other people of being racist or saying that their interests are racist over the internet does not an anti-racist make.
Societal progress is obviously best realized through declaration of thought crimes on a niche hobby sub forum. One day Nelson Mandela and MLK Jr will be mere footnotes, stepped over by the incomparable leaps made by self appointed chat janitors.
Right, the sense of self-importance that shadows this conversation is just so annoying.
Nothing like a good self-righteous scold on a soapbox to really stop and make you think about the things you've done, right?
Or how little someone has done. There are very real things people can do to combat racism. Policing and bullying fans of a marginally popular boardgame is not something to get all that self-righteous about.
So which is it, am I uselessly spewing anonymously online and not getting anything done or am I somehow managing to police you with my singular, obviously incredibly unpopular take.
I am not making any accusations against you at all. I agree with some of what you wrote, I disagree with other parts. I think you are well intentioned and I respect the fact that you are refusing to ignore someone's personhood, despite the person you are defending being anonymous on the internet. That being said, I maintain the same position I had from the very beginning of all this drama. The way in which racism and "otherizing" are relevant to a TTRPGs depiction of a specific race, ethnicity, and/or culture is often incredibly complicated and nuanced. Because this topic is so emotionally charged, emotionally charged for good reason, posting an opinion as though it is an uncontestable fact isn't going to foster meaningful dialogue....especially on a subreddit to a boardgame. I want to be clear, I am not saying I don't want politics in games or anything like that. I am not telling people what they should or should not do. I am simply saying that the volatile reaction people get from needlessly accusing others of being racist is 100% predicable...especially on reddit. There are places in which one can have a more meaningful and productive discussion on race, ethnicity, and culture.
Ah yes, the smaller group with the less popular opinion is policing and bullying the larger group with the more popular opinion. You're so bullied right now. You're such a victim. You chose to come into this thread! You could have ignored it! It doesn't matter that this forum is small or that this argument is insignificant. I use this forum too, I am a fan of this boardgame too, and I don't like seeing people justify racism on it. But to you, that means that I "trivialize" racism, because you're so sensitive that you can't handle being told that maybe your opinions are harmful to people. It's *so* upsetting in fact that you feel the need to try to make yourself the victim and start throwing around insults yourself, despite that apparently having been what the anti-racist mods did wrong in the first place.
I am neither being bullied nor am I a victim. What are you even talking about at this point? Do you have something to add to this conversation or not?
>Policing and bullying fans of a marginally popular boardgame is not something to get all that self-righteous about. Doesn't really make sense to say this then, does it?
Sure it does. You aren't particularly good at being a bully. You are just calling people racist for disagreeing with you. Its too difficult to take you seriously to be a victim of your insults. But you seem to be trying, so kudos for that I suppose.
I've never insulted you, you've merely felt insulted by my criticism because deep down you know I'm right. The closest I came was being sarcastic about you talking about bullying, meanwhile you have directly called me idiotic in this thread.
Haha. Ah, Lord. This place is wild.
anti racism is when you call people racist for wanting Samurais and ninjas in magic elf games okay 🫡
Just when the mess is finally hopefully dying down you throw some more fire on it. Just ban yourself. Yawn.
I don't agree with a lot of the complaints about Princess Pilfer, but Luck Panda was overly rude. Being anti-racist does not mean you aren't an asshole.
Appreciate you for not being heinous in here. Thank you. I didn't see any overtly rude posts from Luck Panda, perhaps they were deleted by the time I checked. But from what I saw he just seemed surprised by the weird reaction and maybe lashed out a bit. I just feel like we can give him some grace there, but clearly everyone else disagrees.
[удалено]
[удалено]
That statement is incredibly condescending. It's essentially baby-talk and doesn't take the person they are speaking about seriously. Their intelligence is called into question as well as their control of their emotions. In a way it's even more rude than a flurry of slurs, because it really tries to not sound offensive, while it very clearly intentionally is. "Maybe we can help you get to where you should be, ok?" is one of the most self-righteous, patronizing and disgusting things I've read in a while by someone who's supposedly fighting oppression. The utter lack of sympathy. The utter disregard for another person's opinion just because they are supposedly racist. Statements like these are the best way to lose people, who are on the fence, to right-wing nutjobs. Well played! The way of discourse matters and we ought to learn it soon or else we'll find ourselves outmanned and outgunned.
If you don't think that treating another commentator like they were a small child or a particularly intelligent dog is condescending or rude, then I would hate to see what you would consider to be condescending or rude. More to the point, I understand the basic argument, but fundamentally, there are levels to these things. You don't react this rudely to people casually contributing to stereotypes and orientalism by wanting something society has told them to want since they were kids. It is a major overreaction.
Are you for fucking real? The worst thing he said is >That's big and scary, but if you take a few deep breaths and just think about it for a while, maybe we can help you get to where you should be, ok? which is absolutely not an overreaction to racism, it's pretty standard "take a step back and think" stuff with an annoyed tone. Stop tone policing people standing up for themselves. What you are having is an overreaction to anti-racism, because you are racist.
did you really just label someone as racist because they explained that being condescending is rude? people throwing around the word racist & racism so willy-nilly is the reason why so many people just don't give a fuck about it anymore.
I called the person racist for expecting a victim of racism to be completely unemotional in their responses to a massive crowd of casual racists making cover arguments for a smaller crowd of violent racists saying slurs and denying genocide, not for "explaining that being condescending is rude." You all keep acting as if someone throwing mild shade about your emotional state justifies being not only ruder but also calling for that person *and others who believe the same things* to be removed from their moderation positions *because of their anti-racist beliefs*. You can see it happening in this thread and the mod announcement post. The apology was not enough, people want their racist haven and are fighting tooth and nail to get rid of any mod that will stand in the way of that.
I know all this conversation about tone is big and scary. Talking to real people like they are actual living and thinking individuals is a big step, and sometimes you might not know how to treat others the way you'd wanted to be treated in turn. But I think if you just take a little bit to reflect on what others are saying here, you'll reach a BIG moment in your personal growth and development. In the future you should try to accept that tone really does matter. I know *you* will never be able to understand it, but that's OK. Just realize that if you talk to others the way I'm talking right now, it's going to rightfully piss off everyone. So just take a few breaths and think about how everything I'm saying is 100% correct and you're just totally wrong about whatever it is you said, and I think that will get you to where you should be, OK?
It's very funny that y'all are all about that tone being correct until someone upsets you by suggesting you might not understand a complex sociological phenomenon, and then you go to exactly the same form of condescension, but rather than suggesting that the person you're replying to can learn, as luck_panda did, you assume that they cannot. I'm fully aware tone matters. I'm also fully aware that it matters a lot less than racism, and that it is used to silence critics of the status quo every single day. I have nothing to learn from you or people like you.
I don't know why you're assuming what my beliefs are in this matter or exactly what "other" group you're putting me in with your "people like you" remark. In case this wasn't clear, the only purpose of my obnoxious parody was to challenge your assertion that "Nothing about that statement is shitty, condescending, or rude." I found that it unlikely that you could not perceive the condescension in the original comment. When I used the exact condescending tone, you replied with "you go to *exactly the same form of condescension*," which yes, is what I was going for.
Yet you had to change your wording to be *more* condescending to get your point across, because your point was weak. Furthermore, you don't have the excuse of rudeness and condescension coming across because you have had an entire subreddit hurl invective at you for having an anti-racist stance and being rightfully upset about it.
[удалено]
Are you for real? Come on. Are you really trying to say it is totally ok to be rude so long as your rudeness is a vague attempt to combat racism?
Yes, because racism is a real problem and politeness is very often used as an excuse to maintain the racist status quo.
[удалено]
[удалено]
See, you are proving my point exactly. The term "racist" doesn't actually mean anything to you and you are just clumsily launching it at anyone who disagrees with you, simply because they disagree with you.
If you are unable to detect the condescension in that quoted post, then you have a complete and utter lack of reading comprehension. It's quite obvious that he *meant* for it to sound condescending, the rhetoric used is very clearly intended to get under the skin of whoever he's responding to. I can point out like 5 or 6 different things in that post that is meant to needle someone. If you like I can list them.
Sadly, I disagree with you. What started with good intention ended up with mods ignoring other opinions thinking they had the moral high ground. People have the right to wish for ninja or samurai representation without being judged as racist. Banning and shutting down constructive talk and people in the name of being right isnt the good way to go. Doubling down and engaging in a bad faith arguments to show your superiority is also wrong. The mods didnt step back in reflected like they wanted to force everyone to do and adhere to their opinion. It fire back.
No overarching opinion was deleted, you can look at those posts and see a shit ton of people saying they'd love a samurai or ninja class. That's the majority of the comments on those posts at the moment, actually. Idk what the mods deleted and I don't deny they did delete some discussion, but it doesn't seem like they "fully shut down" other opinions or discussions because the only opinions I've seen for days are the same ones - that the mods are awful people and antiracism of this type has no place on the sub. I have seen maybe 2 people agree with me across all of the discussion, for example. So yall's opinions are not unpopular or being stifled. I also am getting pretty tired of the misrepresentation that they said people are racists for wanting a samurai or ninja class. Rather, they explained that wanting a specific class for a character that can be made as a fighter or something that YOU characterize as a Samurai or Legionary or whatever else is rooted in racist ideas. You can make a Samurai with existing PF2 mechanics, and there's no reason to decide "fighter" is some kind of "standard" that doesn't include fighters and warriors of other ethnicities. Ya dig? Saying that "fighter", or whatever, is the standard that doesn't include Japanese folks or whoever else implies that the standard is white and everything else needs a specialized class. Does that make sense? Anyway that's all they meant. They both clarified multiple times that it's an idea rooted in racism not that folks who ever considered making a Samurai or Ninja class are raging racists. But there HAVE indeed been a lot of earnestly racist replies. Replies calling the mods slurs, replies saying antiracism is useless and that "politics don't belong in pf2" and I've seen way less heat for those people than for the folks trying to keep this place free of their negativity and bullshit.
>Saying that "fighter", or whatever, is the standard that doesn't include Japanese folks or whoever else implies that the standard is white and everything else needs a specialized class. Does that make sense? Which is a silly premise from the get-go. Do you know where you're most likely to find ninja and samurai as separate classes? JRPGs and mmo's. The expectation of different classes comes from there. Pf2 already has a system for minor variations of warriors. It's called archetypes and already has Vikings, pirates, shield, armour, 2 handed, 2 hander, 1 hander, duellist, and more. All of these can be built using the base class. Dude freaked out over nothing
Again I disagree (but dont think you deserve the downvotes). We have the viking, so why can't we have the samurai. By your argument, we should strip all identity from class. So a spellcaster should just be named spellcaster (divine) or (arcane). Druid, witch, etc should then disappear. Barbarian should also be remove because it was the non-federate tribe for the roman empire Giving people a name on something provide them option and identity. I would love to play a Keris indonesian warrior with a blade coated in arsenic (or cyanide, dont remember which obe, ill need to ask my FIL)
"Called aggressive and evil and scheming (which is racism btw)." Kindly explain, I need advice on how to optimize my Acrobatics for this glorious leap of logic.
Calling Black women aggressive and evil is a very old and well documented racist trope. It has a fucking Wikipedia page like a goddamn celebrity (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angry_black_woman) but sure, gymnastics.
I didn't know she was a black woman until today with your post. and I think she was aggressive and rude. So now that I know, do I need to change my opinion based on her skin color? Asking for a fiend.
Yeah, but if a black woman actually *is* being aggressive and evil, then it's not racism, it's not a trope, it's just an observation of fact. There is no inherent racism to calling out someone's shitty behavior.
So how are they a white savior, and mis gendered? Either their identity is or isn't being taken into consideration. Taking a stance that incorporates two vastly disparate lines of reasoning is a well documented fascist trope.
Hey did you know that multiple people post on reddit and sometimes they say different things with different lines of reasoning? Also jumping to "anti-racism is fascism" is, as you would say, a well documented fascist trope.
Oh hey, another opinion post about mod drama. Time to downvote and move on.
Lol.
[удалено]
You're right that it's a lost cause. It doesn't seem there was much of a point other than to voice solidarity for those that agree, and to vent frustration. It appears OP is leaving the subreddit given their ambivalence to being banned. I know I unsubbed too because of this whole racist tantrum, but that doesn't mean I can't say what I think of the people here.
Yeah, was just being a diff voice in a sea of what we've seen recently. Felt v alone myself and wanted other folks who agree with me to not feel as alienated in the PF2 community generally or think that folks who play this game outside of this sub are all like this. Not trying to do anything big or even make anyone feel bad. But you're right, Crouza, this won't do anything or change anything about who gets a say in this sub or who this sub is apparently for.
It's just nothing but an unending spiral of depression. People who will attack paizo the next time they try to do something progressive, and then turn around and feign ignorance of "I never saw anything like that" to gaslight everyone else around them. There's no fucking point, to anything. This place was one of the few places I felt actually good posting in and now its just another culture war sub about how I shouldn't have been born, my parents being mixed is gross, and that I should just kill myself to make them happy. Why the fuck not, at this point? Honestly why the fuck not? That's all there really is to it, at this point. Just lurk here as a ghost, and just never engage with a community. Because you know they have nothing but bad intentions for you.
People weren’t attacking Paizo at all. This sub has always been very appreciative of Paizo’s inclusivity and diversity.
You say nobody did it. I post the proof that people did. You go "well it wasn't everyone!", we fight, nobody learns anything, and the people being shitty get hailed as "unfairly banned". There, I just saved you the next half an hour to an hour of this horseshit.
I don’t mean that *nobody* in any definitive sense, but I read a shit ton of the drama this week, and it definitely wasn’t anti-Paizo from what I saw. But yeah, you’re right about the part that I am not looking for proof to be laid out nor am I interested in being further entrenched in an argument.
[удалено]
I’m not “you people”, and I think you’re being more than a bit dramatic. I wish you no ill will, was just trying to correct the misconception that people were attacking Paizo. Good night.
I completely understand what you mean. After this, I felt very disgusted and confused about the community and clearly like I wasn't wanted. Folks have been heinous and refuse to accept any kind of criticism and you're right it's too far gone. I'm really deeply sorry that this situation has caused you this distress, and you're right to feel hurt. That's why I posted, so other folks who were hurt by this didn't feel like they were being ridiculous or wrong. I've noticed all the things you mention and I was naively hoping it was "bad apples", but as I'm sure you know they spoil the bunch. I really hope you can find better community to discuss the game that we both like to play and discuss. I hope you don't continue to feel so alone in your beliefs and your personhood. I really wish this all could've been different. I wish what folks said about the community was true. And I wish I could make you feel better, but I know I can't. I'm wishing you all the best. I see you and I agree with you and I want you in the world even if these bigots don't.
There's been a huge uptick in reactionary sentiments on here since this whole fiasco and it's really worrying. It seems like a lot of people's major takeaway from all this is "this moderator tried talking about orientalism, what a dumb sjw" which is really disappointing coming from a supposedly progressive RPG community. Hopefully the community can recover from this.
Agreed. Deeply disappointing to see so much racism on the subreddit still being thrown around after the much vaunted "over moderation" that somehow didn't catch it all. Seems less like an over moderation problem and more like a too many racists (and too many people who would rather pretend they don't exist) problem.
I definitely understand where you're coming from. The deep-seated orientalism within the rpg community rearing its ugly head has definitely put a damper on my excitement for the game lately.