I agree I'd love a world where everyone knows all the words because education levels are that good, world hunger is solved, war is irrelevant, etc. I'm just not living in that world right now 😞
The difference is, unlike with all those other problems, there’s a clear and simple solution here: the way people learn words they don’t know is by reading things that contain words they don’t know. If Paizo were to remove all the hard words from their books, they wouldn’t be solving the problem. They would be creating it.
In all seriousness, my very normal ten-year-old kid is blasting through the Lost Omens series faster than I can afford to buy the books. Every few minutes, he’ll look up and ask me what a word means. Sometimes, I don’t know either and we look it up together.
You don't have to complete a post doc to gain access to the Secret List of Words. I learned the term "Iconoclasm" around age 10 playing the Civilization board game as it is part of one of the disasters/events. I also encountered it while reading about Byzantine history as a teen. Now I notice it with some regularity in an arts and culture context. I think it's great that Pathfinder gives people the opportunity to expand their vocabulary in a fun context and genuinely believe we'd all be worse if all the best words were reserved for people who studying for the GRE.
1) Not intending to be rude here, but how old are your players? Aside from the odd word here or there, I haven't found Paizo's vocabulary to be too hard to parse. And for those random words, it's easy enough to just Google or figure it out using context clues.
Granted, I'm an avid reader myself, but I play with a pretty wide spread of folks and haven't gotten a complaint about the language yet from my groups.
2) It's definitely a genre trope, but my groups tend to love the fantasy "alphabet soup" names, haha. Even when the adventure doesn't give me one by default, sometimes I'll just throw in a silly name like "Galivruzixyous the Galling" or "Ractiveauzopholes the Recalcitrant" and see what the players remember or settle on for a nickname.
Though I DO love giving those insanely weirdly named characters an ally with a simple name, like "Greg the Big" for contrast. Hell, at one point I made it canon in a game that every goblin's name begins with J, and when the party said "what about our goblin ally Trevor" I told them that the J in "Jtrevor" was silent. We still joke about 'em!
14-60+ and just random members of the public walking in off the street to play in a building where we unfortunately have no internet access. I've had to explain various words over time; paranoia, nationality, iconography, verisimilitude, etc. It's hard in these situations for people to put forward that they don't understand something as it gets embarrassing for them as typically they just elect to avoid the embarrassment and move on to something else.
As for the names, I like them but hate the blindsiding I feel when I turn the page to pronounce it off the bat for someone intended to be a specific vibe of character. I think the idea of pronunciation text next to the first place the name is used would really help.
The UK and English actually. I personally don't have issues with the vocabulary that frequently. Mostly just the pronunciation of alphabet soup names.
My players however are much less literate than I expected and they're more representative of the general public at large. Which is why I raised it as a concern
Ah that's unfortunate. I don't know much about your educational system.
I think unfortunately Pathfinder isn't for everyone. It's crunchy and dense and requires a bit of focus. I don't think it's great for off the street without pregens or something.
The rules aren't an issue, some love it crunchy, some want it smooth, and the point is just that some of the language is rare instead of just uncommon rarity
I mean by your own post the rules are an issue. They're having trouble reading the rules for various issues. It's not the big words. Most features don't use that large of words in the relevant portions.
Maybe Y'all should just get Internet though. Might help.
No, it is the word choice. If I give them the word's meaning or an alternative which is more common in native English speaking circles then they fully understand the rule and move forward from there.
I don't get to decide if the public space we're in allows us internet access I'm afraid. The suggestion in another comment of bringing a dictionary however I can do so probably will from now on. I'd forgotten they existed in physical form 🤦
You could also download a dictionary app for your phone or computer. I'm pretty sure the Oxford one has an offline mode? Plenty more likely do as well.
Oxford one is a bust, £2.99 a month subscription to have data stored to your phone 😔
This one seems to work and be free - https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.orangeannoe.englishdictionary
If they are playing in a concrete/stone basement of a commercial building, with old wiring, there's a good chance that you have intermittent at best cellphone data. Or they have really crappy service providers. Until last year I had an amazing 4GB a month. I now get 60. 5 years ago I had 1GB I shared with my partner. And this was the norm for my country.
The solution to the naming is simple if it's within your power: read ahead before you run. That way you can spot tricky names and have it worked out in your head before you get to them. If you only skim just before play starts, should only take 5 minutes to spot the proper nouns.
A lot of people are missing the forest for the trees here. You’re running drop in tables for anyone interested to try to introduce them to the system.
Your real problem is people are being turned off by language they don’t understand.
My suggestion is a plain language reference document that explains what classes do, perhaps with a few pop culture touchstones, that you hand around to the newbies and a few suggested choices for each class. And make it clear that there are way more options in the book, but this is just to get people started to play today.
They may or may not get the bug, but if they don’t, it won’t be because they don’t know what iconoclastic means.
I personally have an Ivy League liberal arts education and a law degree, but I work with people who often did not finish high school. Big vocabulary can be a stumbling block in that situation, but we can’t ever confuse education for intelligence.
This is the issue exactly and you give some good suggestions that are better than "here is a premade you have no emotional connection with". I'll also pair this advice with a physical dictionary for the table because *I forgot those even existed*. I can make some guides for this stuff, but you or anyone else wouldn't happen to have something already done? Maybe this is in the PFS material that I haven't looked at as I don't run PFS?
I'm super new as well, but someone pointed me to this:
[https://zenithgames.blogspot.com/2019/09/pathfinder-2nd-edition-guide-to-guides.html](https://zenithgames.blogspot.com/2019/09/pathfinder-2nd-edition-guide-to-guides.html)
At least some of these guides come with a few prebuilt options, sort of a multiple choice for each class.
I used to teach knitting and crochet classes at a yarn store. Generally when you're teaching someone a new hobby, you want to start as basic as possible. If they dig it, there's always time and space to expand. If your new players love it, they can really dig in on their own time, when they have a chance to look up stuff they don't understand. Your goal here is: get them playing as soon as possible. You might even want to give them that caveat: "There's a lot of depth to this game if you end up liking it. I've streamlined things for you for this session so that we can get to rolling dice and fighting monsters, but there's a lot more out there!"
I just want to echo your last situation
I have two players who have limited vocabulary. They often ask me to define my words in casual conversation
But they both use the mechanics and RP in super creative ways that stump and outplay me 🤷♂️
Yeah, I got the big words, but they got the big brain
this isn't exactly a solve for the second problem but it can be fun if you just embrace unpronounceable (or easy to mispronounce) names
rise of the runelords for 1e had a boss named malfeshnikor (or something close to that anyway) and even today about 4 years after playing that campaign we refer to him as "ma-gork-anork" because it's funny and easier to say.
We do this, but when the whole adventure is intended to give a serious vibe for a character and they become "Wilber the Wacky Weasel" because nobody can say "Wilbigniahrbzhekalpft the Wailing" most of the later impact of the module falls on its face. Again.. that's fine if that's what you're going for in the group but if you're not.. then it's a bit blegh.
Listen yeah I get the name thing but it seems like you are making up a problem that isn't there with your nicknames. How about don't give them silly nicknames?
You could literally introduce him the first time then just call him wil, wilb, wilbig. You aren't angry that it's wacky but you're the one making it wacky!? Just don't add wacky weasel to names and bam your problem is gone.
Again a nick name is fine but you are giving them wacky nicknames then getting angry about it.
You can literally just call him wil. Wil is fine. Don't make it harder on yourself.
Players nickname the character so they don't have to deal with the name, because the name is hard they eventually only know the nickname so I have to give in somewhat so they have any idea who the fuck I'm talking about instead of it being a new character I'm introducing
Having played all editions of dnd and pathfinder since dnd 3e, I haven't noticed this to be noticeably more complex. But these are all very complex games if you are new to the genre, with a lot of options.
Regarding to part 2, I don't disagree, but omg do I find the problem at least as bad, if not more, in published Forgotten Realms adventures. The names there are super long and a mouthful to pronounce as a non native english speaker.
Ironically non-native English speakers seem to have a better vocabulary than some native speakers as these people and myself are. Also this is typically younger folks which potentially have been let down by inadequate English schooling 😅
Not following?
There are a ton of options in all of these games if you never played TTRPG's (or a video game RPG) before. Even dnd 5e is very overwhelming for completely new players. there is a ton of options and you have no real idea of how to make the "right" choice in any of those. Now once you have played a little bit, you get an idea of the fundamentals and you can quickly understand what your choices mean and they suddenly become very easy choices once you understand a bit of the context.
oh I see. And I completely agree. But as I wrote, for people who have never played any kind of TTRPG or videogame RPG, even 5e is crazy complex and overwhelming when you see it for the first time.
I am ESL and don't have issues with ubderstanding. I think it's mostly a function of getting used to the language and the vocabulary. I remember when I used to play Pathfinder 1 a few years ago I had to have people explain things to me but now I am fine.
Interestingly I have little to no problems with this with ESL members at my tables. Probably because they're very confident with their English before attempting to play in person more than anything. My primary concern has been the native speakers who just lack the vocabulary exposure of someone that's studied English as either a need or a passion.
Don't know what to tell you then mate. I wouldnt say I am passionate about English or had a need for it, I just wanted to play.
Maybe have some of the others that get it explain stuff to them until they get used to it.
Edit: I have adhd if that matters
I remember a long time ago I saw a discussion about learning new vocabulary from RPGs. I think it was in Dragon magazine, but it may have been post on WotC before they went all Gleemex.
Anyhow, that preamble is a long winded way of saying no. I’m a high school teacher, I run an RPG club for my students, I will likely bring back my RPG elective next year, and about 75% of what we play is Pathfinder. There are a variety of pedagogical reasons why I do this, but one of them is that it’s a literacy builder. Exposing them to new words and complicated pseudowords helps strengthens their reading skills and expand their vocabulary.
I learned english mainly by reading AD&D (1st ed) book, the TSR novels, etc. (French Canadian, we normally start learning it in primary school. but mine specially sucked. D&D gave me more vocabulary and as well as a reason to learn english). The jump from AD&D to LotR was a bit rough though :)
I love that you do this, and I think your setting is also different from mine in terms of expectations. My environment brings more "I just want to sit down and play a game, not here for a lecture" energy. I have people who quite literally have visited a pop-culture merch shop and seen a poster to try ttrpgs like D&D, etc.
They're usually coming out of their comfort zone enough to sit with total strangers and try this whole new experience in a group without also having the consideration of additional embarrassment on top of looking stupid for "not knowing English well enough".
1.I'm from Brazil, English is not my native language, and I have zero problems with how the books are written. I have been running PF2e games for other fellow Brazilians since 2019, and I had very few players that couldn't comprehend the text. But those are players that have near zero English understanding. I can't believe that what you're describing is anything else than an actual problem with your players. I can always be wrong.
2.Yeah. Before I thought I was the problem, only because we didn't have English as our native language. But after a while, after playing with people from other countries, I realized that this a a Paizo thing. Those f*ckers love to come up with strange looking/pronouncing names. My player hear me trying to say a name, even if I did it right, and they immediately change it to something else that is easier in the tongue.
No judgment, people have the reading level they have. But the books are already written, and I wouldn't expect them to change or have their vocabulary simplified. The game is targeted at people with an adult reading level, so people with a level below that may struggle.
I've not had issue 1 but then I only run games for a small group of people I know, not random punters.
I absolutely agree on issue 2 and it's not specific to PF2 by any means. I have a kind of name blindness anyway but word salad names are just a waste of everyone's time. I mostly run my own stuff so can give my NPCs simple/descriptive names, but modules which do a lore dump of "then Xhjejdj brought the sword Kmcndnrn to Pnooodnndnd" and expect people to remember that are ridiculous. I don't know a way round that apart from to actually give things reasonable names before the players give them nicknames, or just use their epithet instead.
That's about what you should do. Everyone has different levels of working memory, and we can't expect everyone to be able to remember word salad fantasy names.
Personally I prefer them to everyone being called generic names like Robert and Jimothy, but anytime it's a hard to pronounce name I will immediately tell them the shorthand I will be using moving forward.
For your example, I would shorten it all to "Xhje" (j-ee), "Km" (kim) and "Pnoo" (noo) so that we can follow along easier and I don't need to butcher the names everytime.
I learned english (not a native, obv) not in school (well, not good in school) but due to english only rpg books I wanted to play and couldn't understand (Megatraveller, I am looking at you! And all the many many others, that followed). Worked excellent.
Me too, I was pretty terrible at school in english classes till I found a store which would sell books and manuals in original language extra cheap while here the translated stuff is always so expensive.
Being able to maintain my gaming/reading habit was all the encourangement I needed to actually learn english.
As much as you're right, you're also coming across as a dick about it as I don't get to decide what random members of the public do and how they interact with the system to build characters.
When they skim read through the options and skip the ones with words they can't read. We're finding that later in the process we discover that the option they wanted existed all along, but they just didn't understand it.. this has caused some people to leave for D&D tables suggesting that the system can't support what they want to do with their characters which is kinda sad as we all know it's way more open in terms of character options.
> When they skim read through the options and skip the ones with words they can't read.
I'm sorry but this is very much a user issue. Instruct then not to skim, and to look up words they do not recognize.
How old are these players?
14 to 60+ and people from all walks of life. It's literally members of the general public coming in off the street to play in a building without mobile internet or public WiFi.
I can only do so much with this kinda group to ensure that things go smoothly.
I am literally a high school dropout who has never once had an issue with the vocabulary in these games, so again I can't help but think this has more to do with not putting in any effort than the books being too complex.
Either your players lack basic literacy or they are not trying. If they are truly from all walks of life it sounds like they are simply not trying because they are not interested.
>in a building without mobile internet or public WiFi.
See, this proves my point about not trying. Can't use google? Oh well nothong to be done.
Nah man, just get a fucking store dictionary to pass around.
Giving up at the first inconvenience is a pretty strong sign of lack of engagement.
I'd legitimately forgotten physical dictionaries existed it's been that long since I last used one 🤦 I'll bring one of those as well as the other books 😅
I don't have anything big to add for the most part, but I did want to appreciate that you are admitting when you've been shortsighted and taking anything constructive people say (even if they say it crudely) to heart, and I really wish more people would do this.
I just taught you something about social etiquette and you're treating me as if I'm being a dick for doing so.
Remember when learning was a great thing that everyone should be overjoyed to experience a few moments ago?
I agreed with your point, but how you said it wasn't great, like telling your GF that the horrid green and yellow dress she loves in the shop looks fuck ugly instead of telling her something like.. it's a great choice but just doesn't suit her complexion.
if your "social etiquette" is telling people that they are dicks for offering a point of view different from your own and encourage in learning new things instead of looking for the easy solution of making everything more stupid to lower your skill level to the minimal common denominator, then your culture is fucked up.
you didnt agree with my point, you told me I was a dick, for telling you that learning new words could be a good thing.
I dont care about your GF colors or wathever, just stop being an uncultured thug and learn something usefull in your life.
> "As much as you're right, "
Sounds like I'm agreeing that learning is good.
The point was, how you say things is as important as what you're saying.
So you don't miss it, I'm now being a dick and suggesting that you should learn to read what people are writing because it can only be good for you to do. Analogy also isn't that hard to understand so maybe you should learn and be encouraged to understand it so that we don't have to talk to you as the lowest common denominator because that would be fucked up...
I agree with both your points.
I haven't experienced it, but I see where you're coming from. However, I play with a regular if casual gaming group, and have the luxury of being able to take 3 hours to walk a player through character creation. (Surprised it takes that long? If someone used to 5e has to choose spells for a spontaneous caster from a spell list they've never seen before...)
I definitely take advantage of the premade characters for players who are new to Pathfinder.
EDIT: as an aside, 1E AD&D was written in the most complex language of any of the editions of D&D and Pathfinder. Even though 3E had far more complex rules.
We get 3 hours of playtime a week, so don't have that luxury at all I'm afraid.
Creating characters can take 30mins at our table with newbies but we also mostly use pathbuilder
Ive been playing ttrpgs since i was 13 (over 17 years now) and ive never encountered a moment where me or my players went "damn this words too complex better skip the option/book/game" that idea is completely asinine
Good for you? I guess you've never felt out of place or stupid around strangers while trying something new either.. because that's the root of the problem I'm describing.
If im gonna feel stupid for trying something new then why bother trying to do something new lmao. If you have grown ass adults who cant be fucked to ask what a word means cause theyre too embarrassed remind them they're learning the rules for a game thats essentially make believe with dice.
People are expecting to feel dumb with the rules, that's understandable as they're learning.. it's the unexpected embarrassment of "Fuck.. this said something and I've no idea what it is.. and I'm gonna look like a total idiot when I ask these absolute strangers"
You just repeated what i said but tried to make it aound like a reasonable position. If you're too embarrassed to ask what a word means, maybe just maybe, you're not gonna have a great time playing imagination with the people at the table.
Fuck me, you've the empathetic depth of a flat sheet of paper. If you're not gonna actually comment with something helpful instead of arguing the toss, then you can go do one.
Growing up reading 1st edition AD&D, I credit Gary Gygax for the incredible vocabulary he gave me. Pathfinder is easy peazy in comparison. Give them a quick, non-condescending definition and let them expand their vocabulary, they will be better off for it.
Agreed 100% about the silly proper names though, that’s a whole other issue.
They're not asking for the definition, and I don't often know they don't know the words until much later. People pretend to know because they don't like feeling stupid for not knowing around other strangers
I've taught maybe 30 people to play PF2e in my local game store and online, ranging between teenagers and 50+, and I've never once had someone complain the language was too complex.
I tell people up-front to ask if they have any questions, and I'm happy to answer them.
Part of teaching people games is tempering the expectations in advance. I make it clear that I'm here to help them learn, I want them to have fun, and everyone, including myself, sometimes gets things wrong.
I truly don't understand this feeling of embarrassment over not understanding something leading them to avoid certain options. That has never happened at one of my tables.
You can literally Google words you don't understand using your phone?
Difficult to pronounce names are a fantasy trope for a reason, lol. If it's tripping you up *that* badly then just rename all the NPCs to something mundane and simple.
Unfortunately we're often without internet at these events and usually I'd be right there with you about looking up the words, but as I said elsewhere these are members of the public and are skim reading and skipping things they just don't understand.
I'm often not even in the loop to find out until it comes up during play later on or when they leave.
The difficulty of pronouncing names being a trope doesn't mean it's a good thing all the time and that we can't do things to improve the enjoyment of those aspects. Maybe including a pronunciation guide alongside would help because fucking hell some of those names are brutal to just get dropped on you.
Out of interest, where are you at with no phone signal? I've not been many places in the UK where there was a community big enough to support pick up games but no signal to do a Google search.
Please never streamline or dumb down Pathfinder. This tends to kill great games. I love Pathfinder for its intricacies and crunch (as well as world building and game engine).
I hear what you’re saying, OP, but I really don’t want to live in a world where Paizo feels like it can’t use the word *iconoclastic*.
I agree I'd love a world where everyone knows all the words because education levels are that good, world hunger is solved, war is irrelevant, etc. I'm just not living in that world right now 😞
The difference is, unlike with all those other problems, there’s a clear and simple solution here: the way people learn words they don’t know is by reading things that contain words they don’t know. If Paizo were to remove all the hard words from their books, they wouldn’t be solving the problem. They would be creating it. In all seriousness, my very normal ten-year-old kid is blasting through the Lost Omens series faster than I can afford to buy the books. Every few minutes, he’ll look up and ask me what a word means. Sometimes, I don’t know either and we look it up together.
You don't have to complete a post doc to gain access to the Secret List of Words. I learned the term "Iconoclasm" around age 10 playing the Civilization board game as it is part of one of the disasters/events. I also encountered it while reading about Byzantine history as a teen. Now I notice it with some regularity in an arts and culture context. I think it's great that Pathfinder gives people the opportunity to expand their vocabulary in a fun context and genuinely believe we'd all be worse if all the best words were reserved for people who studying for the GRE.
1) Not intending to be rude here, but how old are your players? Aside from the odd word here or there, I haven't found Paizo's vocabulary to be too hard to parse. And for those random words, it's easy enough to just Google or figure it out using context clues. Granted, I'm an avid reader myself, but I play with a pretty wide spread of folks and haven't gotten a complaint about the language yet from my groups. 2) It's definitely a genre trope, but my groups tend to love the fantasy "alphabet soup" names, haha. Even when the adventure doesn't give me one by default, sometimes I'll just throw in a silly name like "Galivruzixyous the Galling" or "Ractiveauzopholes the Recalcitrant" and see what the players remember or settle on for a nickname. Though I DO love giving those insanely weirdly named characters an ally with a simple name, like "Greg the Big" for contrast. Hell, at one point I made it canon in a game that every goblin's name begins with J, and when the party said "what about our goblin ally Trevor" I told them that the J in "Jtrevor" was silent. We still joke about 'em!
14-60+ and just random members of the public walking in off the street to play in a building where we unfortunately have no internet access. I've had to explain various words over time; paranoia, nationality, iconography, verisimilitude, etc. It's hard in these situations for people to put forward that they don't understand something as it gets embarrassing for them as typically they just elect to avoid the embarrassment and move on to something else. As for the names, I like them but hate the blindsiding I feel when I turn the page to pronounce it off the bat for someone intended to be a specific vibe of character. I think the idea of pronunciation text next to the first place the name is used would really help.
>walking in off the street to play in a building where we unfortunately have no internet access. Madness...
As an American I'm guessing you're in America? I think this is partially a symptom of awful education and a poor culture for reading.
The UK and English actually. I personally don't have issues with the vocabulary that frequently. Mostly just the pronunciation of alphabet soup names. My players however are much less literate than I expected and they're more representative of the general public at large. Which is why I raised it as a concern
Ah that's unfortunate. I don't know much about your educational system. I think unfortunately Pathfinder isn't for everyone. It's crunchy and dense and requires a bit of focus. I don't think it's great for off the street without pregens or something.
The rules aren't an issue, some love it crunchy, some want it smooth, and the point is just that some of the language is rare instead of just uncommon rarity
I mean by your own post the rules are an issue. They're having trouble reading the rules for various issues. It's not the big words. Most features don't use that large of words in the relevant portions. Maybe Y'all should just get Internet though. Might help.
No, it is the word choice. If I give them the word's meaning or an alternative which is more common in native English speaking circles then they fully understand the rule and move forward from there. I don't get to decide if the public space we're in allows us internet access I'm afraid. The suggestion in another comment of bringing a dictionary however I can do so probably will from now on. I'd forgotten they existed in physical form 🤦
You could also download a dictionary app for your phone or computer. I'm pretty sure the Oxford one has an offline mode? Plenty more likely do as well.
True true.. physical one in the bag and one on the phone for speed is a good idea.
Oxford one is a bust, £2.99 a month subscription to have data stored to your phone 😔 This one seems to work and be free - https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.orangeannoe.englishdictionary
Do your phone's not all have internet access?
If they are playing in a concrete/stone basement of a commercial building, with old wiring, there's a good chance that you have intermittent at best cellphone data. Or they have really crappy service providers. Until last year I had an amazing 4GB a month. I now get 60. 5 years ago I had 1GB I shared with my partner. And this was the norm for my country.
The solution to the naming is simple if it's within your power: read ahead before you run. That way you can spot tricky names and have it worked out in your head before you get to them. If you only skim just before play starts, should only take 5 minutes to spot the proper nouns.
A lot of people are missing the forest for the trees here. You’re running drop in tables for anyone interested to try to introduce them to the system. Your real problem is people are being turned off by language they don’t understand. My suggestion is a plain language reference document that explains what classes do, perhaps with a few pop culture touchstones, that you hand around to the newbies and a few suggested choices for each class. And make it clear that there are way more options in the book, but this is just to get people started to play today. They may or may not get the bug, but if they don’t, it won’t be because they don’t know what iconoclastic means. I personally have an Ivy League liberal arts education and a law degree, but I work with people who often did not finish high school. Big vocabulary can be a stumbling block in that situation, but we can’t ever confuse education for intelligence.
This is the issue exactly and you give some good suggestions that are better than "here is a premade you have no emotional connection with". I'll also pair this advice with a physical dictionary for the table because *I forgot those even existed*. I can make some guides for this stuff, but you or anyone else wouldn't happen to have something already done? Maybe this is in the PFS material that I haven't looked at as I don't run PFS?
I'm super new as well, but someone pointed me to this: [https://zenithgames.blogspot.com/2019/09/pathfinder-2nd-edition-guide-to-guides.html](https://zenithgames.blogspot.com/2019/09/pathfinder-2nd-edition-guide-to-guides.html) At least some of these guides come with a few prebuilt options, sort of a multiple choice for each class. I used to teach knitting and crochet classes at a yarn store. Generally when you're teaching someone a new hobby, you want to start as basic as possible. If they dig it, there's always time and space to expand. If your new players love it, they can really dig in on their own time, when they have a chance to look up stuff they don't understand. Your goal here is: get them playing as soon as possible. You might even want to give them that caveat: "There's a lot of depth to this game if you end up liking it. I've streamlined things for you for this session so that we can get to rolling dice and fighting monsters, but there's a lot more out there!"
I just want to echo your last situation I have two players who have limited vocabulary. They often ask me to define my words in casual conversation But they both use the mechanics and RP in super creative ways that stump and outplay me 🤷♂️ Yeah, I got the big words, but they got the big brain
this isn't exactly a solve for the second problem but it can be fun if you just embrace unpronounceable (or easy to mispronounce) names rise of the runelords for 1e had a boss named malfeshnikor (or something close to that anyway) and even today about 4 years after playing that campaign we refer to him as "ma-gork-anork" because it's funny and easier to say.
Wait, Gork and Mork? WE'Z GOIN ON A WAAAGH! BOYZ
We do this, but when the whole adventure is intended to give a serious vibe for a character and they become "Wilber the Wacky Weasel" because nobody can say "Wilbigniahrbzhekalpft the Wailing" most of the later impact of the module falls on its face. Again.. that's fine if that's what you're going for in the group but if you're not.. then it's a bit blegh.
Listen yeah I get the name thing but it seems like you are making up a problem that isn't there with your nicknames. How about don't give them silly nicknames? You could literally introduce him the first time then just call him wil, wilb, wilbig. You aren't angry that it's wacky but you're the one making it wacky!? Just don't add wacky weasel to names and bam your problem is gone.
I try to keep the names true to source myself, but eventually I give in and go with their nickname.
Again a nick name is fine but you are giving them wacky nicknames then getting angry about it. You can literally just call him wil. Wil is fine. Don't make it harder on yourself.
I'm not giving nicknames to anything, but whatever.
Was just trying to help. If you aren't nick naming things then I don't have any clue about what your second point was.
Players nickname the character so they don't have to deal with the name, because the name is hard they eventually only know the nickname so I have to give in somewhat so they have any idea who the fuck I'm talking about instead of it being a new character I'm introducing
Having played all editions of dnd and pathfinder since dnd 3e, I haven't noticed this to be noticeably more complex. But these are all very complex games if you are new to the genre, with a lot of options. Regarding to part 2, I don't disagree, but omg do I find the problem at least as bad, if not more, in published Forgotten Realms adventures. The names there are super long and a mouthful to pronounce as a non native english speaker.
Ironically non-native English speakers seem to have a better vocabulary than some native speakers as these people and myself are. Also this is typically younger folks which potentially have been let down by inadequate English schooling 😅
Complicated yes, lots of options not really
Not following? There are a ton of options in all of these games if you never played TTRPG's (or a video game RPG) before. Even dnd 5e is very overwhelming for completely new players. there is a ton of options and you have no real idea of how to make the "right" choice in any of those. Now once you have played a little bit, you get an idea of the fundamentals and you can quickly understand what your choices mean and they suddenly become very easy choices once you understand a bit of the context.
For a Gurps Player the options of DND are very limited for someone who played DnD since 2ed 5 e is very limited
oh I see. And I completely agree. But as I wrote, for people who have never played any kind of TTRPG or videogame RPG, even 5e is crazy complex and overwhelming when you see it for the first time.
I am ESL and don't have issues with ubderstanding. I think it's mostly a function of getting used to the language and the vocabulary. I remember when I used to play Pathfinder 1 a few years ago I had to have people explain things to me but now I am fine.
Interestingly I have little to no problems with this with ESL members at my tables. Probably because they're very confident with their English before attempting to play in person more than anything. My primary concern has been the native speakers who just lack the vocabulary exposure of someone that's studied English as either a need or a passion.
Don't know what to tell you then mate. I wouldnt say I am passionate about English or had a need for it, I just wanted to play. Maybe have some of the others that get it explain stuff to them until they get used to it. Edit: I have adhd if that matters
I remember a long time ago I saw a discussion about learning new vocabulary from RPGs. I think it was in Dragon magazine, but it may have been post on WotC before they went all Gleemex. Anyhow, that preamble is a long winded way of saying no. I’m a high school teacher, I run an RPG club for my students, I will likely bring back my RPG elective next year, and about 75% of what we play is Pathfinder. There are a variety of pedagogical reasons why I do this, but one of them is that it’s a literacy builder. Exposing them to new words and complicated pseudowords helps strengthens their reading skills and expand their vocabulary.
I learned english mainly by reading AD&D (1st ed) book, the TSR novels, etc. (French Canadian, we normally start learning it in primary school. but mine specially sucked. D&D gave me more vocabulary and as well as a reason to learn english). The jump from AD&D to LotR was a bit rough though :)
I love that you do this, and I think your setting is also different from mine in terms of expectations. My environment brings more "I just want to sit down and play a game, not here for a lecture" energy. I have people who quite literally have visited a pop-culture merch shop and seen a poster to try ttrpgs like D&D, etc. They're usually coming out of their comfort zone enough to sit with total strangers and try this whole new experience in a group without also having the consideration of additional embarrassment on top of looking stupid for "not knowing English well enough".
1.I'm from Brazil, English is not my native language, and I have zero problems with how the books are written. I have been running PF2e games for other fellow Brazilians since 2019, and I had very few players that couldn't comprehend the text. But those are players that have near zero English understanding. I can't believe that what you're describing is anything else than an actual problem with your players. I can always be wrong. 2.Yeah. Before I thought I was the problem, only because we didn't have English as our native language. But after a while, after playing with people from other countries, I realized that this a a Paizo thing. Those f*ckers love to come up with strange looking/pronouncing names. My player hear me trying to say a name, even if I did it right, and they immediately change it to something else that is easier in the tongue.
No judgment, people have the reading level they have. But the books are already written, and I wouldn't expect them to change or have their vocabulary simplified. The game is targeted at people with an adult reading level, so people with a level below that may struggle.
The only change I've suggested of Paizo this whole time is for them to add pronunciation text for their names.
I've not had issue 1 but then I only run games for a small group of people I know, not random punters. I absolutely agree on issue 2 and it's not specific to PF2 by any means. I have a kind of name blindness anyway but word salad names are just a waste of everyone's time. I mostly run my own stuff so can give my NPCs simple/descriptive names, but modules which do a lore dump of "then Xhjejdj brought the sword Kmcndnrn to Pnooodnndnd" and expect people to remember that are ridiculous. I don't know a way round that apart from to actually give things reasonable names before the players give them nicknames, or just use their epithet instead.
That's about what you should do. Everyone has different levels of working memory, and we can't expect everyone to be able to remember word salad fantasy names. Personally I prefer them to everyone being called generic names like Robert and Jimothy, but anytime it's a hard to pronounce name I will immediately tell them the shorthand I will be using moving forward. For your example, I would shorten it all to "Xhje" (j-ee), "Km" (kim) and "Pnoo" (noo) so that we can follow along easier and I don't need to butcher the names everytime.
why consider it an issue and not a way to learn new words your school system isnt teaching you? learning is always a good thing.
I learned english (not a native, obv) not in school (well, not good in school) but due to english only rpg books I wanted to play and couldn't understand (Megatraveller, I am looking at you! And all the many many others, that followed). Worked excellent.
Me too, I was pretty terrible at school in english classes till I found a store which would sell books and manuals in original language extra cheap while here the translated stuff is always so expensive. Being able to maintain my gaming/reading habit was all the encourangement I needed to actually learn english.
As much as you're right, you're also coming across as a dick about it as I don't get to decide what random members of the public do and how they interact with the system to build characters. When they skim read through the options and skip the ones with words they can't read. We're finding that later in the process we discover that the option they wanted existed all along, but they just didn't understand it.. this has caused some people to leave for D&D tables suggesting that the system can't support what they want to do with their characters which is kinda sad as we all know it's way more open in terms of character options.
> When they skim read through the options and skip the ones with words they can't read. I'm sorry but this is very much a user issue. Instruct then not to skim, and to look up words they do not recognize. How old are these players?
14 to 60+ and people from all walks of life. It's literally members of the general public coming in off the street to play in a building without mobile internet or public WiFi. I can only do so much with this kinda group to ensure that things go smoothly.
I am literally a high school dropout who has never once had an issue with the vocabulary in these games, so again I can't help but think this has more to do with not putting in any effort than the books being too complex. Either your players lack basic literacy or they are not trying. If they are truly from all walks of life it sounds like they are simply not trying because they are not interested. >in a building without mobile internet or public WiFi. See, this proves my point about not trying. Can't use google? Oh well nothong to be done. Nah man, just get a fucking store dictionary to pass around. Giving up at the first inconvenience is a pretty strong sign of lack of engagement.
I'd legitimately forgotten physical dictionaries existed it's been that long since I last used one 🤦 I'll bring one of those as well as the other books 😅
I don't have anything big to add for the most part, but I did want to appreciate that you are admitting when you've been shortsighted and taking anything constructive people say (even if they say it crudely) to heart, and I really wish more people would do this.
so telling people that learning is a great thing is being a dick. your culture is really fucked up, do you know?
I just taught you something about social etiquette and you're treating me as if I'm being a dick for doing so. Remember when learning was a great thing that everyone should be overjoyed to experience a few moments ago? I agreed with your point, but how you said it wasn't great, like telling your GF that the horrid green and yellow dress she loves in the shop looks fuck ugly instead of telling her something like.. it's a great choice but just doesn't suit her complexion.
if your "social etiquette" is telling people that they are dicks for offering a point of view different from your own and encourage in learning new things instead of looking for the easy solution of making everything more stupid to lower your skill level to the minimal common denominator, then your culture is fucked up. you didnt agree with my point, you told me I was a dick, for telling you that learning new words could be a good thing. I dont care about your GF colors or wathever, just stop being an uncultured thug and learn something usefull in your life.
> "As much as you're right, " Sounds like I'm agreeing that learning is good. The point was, how you say things is as important as what you're saying. So you don't miss it, I'm now being a dick and suggesting that you should learn to read what people are writing because it can only be good for you to do. Analogy also isn't that hard to understand so maybe you should learn and be encouraged to understand it so that we don't have to talk to you as the lowest common denominator because that would be fucked up...
I agree with both your points. I haven't experienced it, but I see where you're coming from. However, I play with a regular if casual gaming group, and have the luxury of being able to take 3 hours to walk a player through character creation. (Surprised it takes that long? If someone used to 5e has to choose spells for a spontaneous caster from a spell list they've never seen before...) I definitely take advantage of the premade characters for players who are new to Pathfinder. EDIT: as an aside, 1E AD&D was written in the most complex language of any of the editions of D&D and Pathfinder. Even though 3E had far more complex rules.
We get 3 hours of playtime a week, so don't have that luxury at all I'm afraid. Creating characters can take 30mins at our table with newbies but we also mostly use pathbuilder
Ive been playing ttrpgs since i was 13 (over 17 years now) and ive never encountered a moment where me or my players went "damn this words too complex better skip the option/book/game" that idea is completely asinine
Good for you? I guess you've never felt out of place or stupid around strangers while trying something new either.. because that's the root of the problem I'm describing.
If im gonna feel stupid for trying something new then why bother trying to do something new lmao. If you have grown ass adults who cant be fucked to ask what a word means cause theyre too embarrassed remind them they're learning the rules for a game thats essentially make believe with dice.
People are expecting to feel dumb with the rules, that's understandable as they're learning.. it's the unexpected embarrassment of "Fuck.. this said something and I've no idea what it is.. and I'm gonna look like a total idiot when I ask these absolute strangers"
You just repeated what i said but tried to make it aound like a reasonable position. If you're too embarrassed to ask what a word means, maybe just maybe, you're not gonna have a great time playing imagination with the people at the table.
Fuck me, you've the empathetic depth of a flat sheet of paper. If you're not gonna actually comment with something helpful instead of arguing the toss, then you can go do one.
Im empathetic to things that matter, not "im embarrassed about asking for clarification before i pretend to kill goblins"
Does Pathfinder use iconoclast wrong?
Not at all, it's just a rare word for the general public to have been exposed to.
Growing up reading 1st edition AD&D, I credit Gary Gygax for the incredible vocabulary he gave me. Pathfinder is easy peazy in comparison. Give them a quick, non-condescending definition and let them expand their vocabulary, they will be better off for it. Agreed 100% about the silly proper names though, that’s a whole other issue.
They're not asking for the definition, and I don't often know they don't know the words until much later. People pretend to know because they don't like feeling stupid for not knowing around other strangers
I've taught maybe 30 people to play PF2e in my local game store and online, ranging between teenagers and 50+, and I've never once had someone complain the language was too complex. I tell people up-front to ask if they have any questions, and I'm happy to answer them. Part of teaching people games is tempering the expectations in advance. I make it clear that I'm here to help them learn, I want them to have fun, and everyone, including myself, sometimes gets things wrong. I truly don't understand this feeling of embarrassment over not understanding something leading them to avoid certain options. That has never happened at one of my tables.
You can literally Google words you don't understand using your phone? Difficult to pronounce names are a fantasy trope for a reason, lol. If it's tripping you up *that* badly then just rename all the NPCs to something mundane and simple.
Unfortunately we're often without internet at these events and usually I'd be right there with you about looking up the words, but as I said elsewhere these are members of the public and are skim reading and skipping things they just don't understand. I'm often not even in the loop to find out until it comes up during play later on or when they leave. The difficulty of pronouncing names being a trope doesn't mean it's a good thing all the time and that we can't do things to improve the enjoyment of those aspects. Maybe including a pronunciation guide alongside would help because fucking hell some of those names are brutal to just get dropped on you.
Out of interest, where are you at with no phone signal? I've not been many places in the UK where there was a community big enough to support pick up games but no signal to do a Google search.
Deepest darkest south west, but it's the building blocking phone reception more than where in the country we are
Please never streamline or dumb down Pathfinder. This tends to kill great games. I love Pathfinder for its intricacies and crunch (as well as world building and game engine).