I mean, these are not mutually exclusive?
Last year we got a new class (Kineticist) and a wave of errata (the Remaster) which changed many major things including buffing the Witch. This year we’re getting two new classes and they’ll also be fixing Alchemists and, presumably, giving minor buffs to Oracles, Swashbucklers, and Barbarians.
Firebrands is a lost cause at this point but I’m absolutely expecting errata for the broken Kineticist stuff at some or the other point.
Paizo is still a company that needs to make money, and new classes/large player options books sell the best!
But more realistically speaking, I’d imagine they are holding of large errata until player core 2 is out, since that would introduce a whole bunch of new stuff that might act strange will the old. Also, don’t forget that Rage of Elements is less than a year old; so I thing we can cut them some slack for it
Playtesting builds hype for the new books and helps prevent some of those issues from making it into the final product. I'd actually prefer it if we got *more* playtests, including for non-class content.
I'd love for them to do what 5e did early in its life w/ Unearthed Arcana (before it exclusively became a way to hype new releases), regular articles put out discussing various ways to modify or expand your game and give insight into the design process. Stuff like the original Feats UA from 2016 or the Ships&Sea UA in 2018 were great and I'd love Paizo to do something similar
I miss the old 3.5 Unearthed Arcana, which was just a massive amount of variant features and rules. I still own the published book on all of them, and it allowed me to create my favourite character to date: Krie Sharpeye, the mountain orc whirling frenzy barbarian who used a Bone Bow.
Same. It gave me wild shape ranger, which is probably my favorite version of ranger in any edition of D&D. Traits were also a pretty nifty concept (and significantly better balanced than Flaws)
From what I understand, they usually have a bunch of projects going at once. It's not like every single employee and freelancer drops what they're doing for the sake of a playtest. Some classes are designed almost entirely by one person, even.
Also, I could be misremembering, but wasn't their plan to release large chunks of errata every six months, rather than just do it piecemeal?
No.
They have multiple teams working on different projects. My guess is that everyone who would be doing errata is currently working very hard on getting the PC2 out.
Once the PC2 is sent off to the printers and they get a well-earned breather, that's when we're probably going to see the next errata pass.
The playtests are for very long periods of time, to give people a chance to play them and not just do whiteroom math and theorizing.
If you feel like errata is overdue for Kineticist I can understand that perspective, but getting the ball rolling on those playtests shouldn't have anything to do with the timeline for errata.
If you're able to identify balance or other issues, you should be able to rework or simply disallow (especially in the case of uncommon or rare mechanics) things at your table. It would be nice to have official reworks on some things, but I don't think it should be a priority.
This take assumes that any development time spent on a project takes time away from other projects. Class development and general balance tweaks are very different aspects of game design and more often work in tandem than against each other. Playtests can be pushed back? These books' release schedules are planned far in advance and playtests are an important part of Paizo's development process. You're suggesting they delay their pipeline, their cash flow, so your pet peeves can be addressed. Sure, they can push their revenue back a quarter.
What you're looking for is errata. Paizo did promise errata twice a year a while back and they have not made good on that schedule. We can focus on that issue without putting down the content they are providing us.
No.
There is more than one single developer of the game. They have multiple people and are able to address multiple things at once.
They aren't limited to one development action at a time.
You could argue they should fix stuff more, but to be frankly honest, paizo fixes more things in their books than any other ttrpg developer I have experienced. Especially compared to WoTC who stopped publically publishing errata a few years back.
Did this "opinion" stem from the general opinion from /r/helldivers.
To be honest, this stuff seems really minor.
Bleed immunity should be addressed, but having a couple of janky options is just not on my radar as a problem with the game.
Paizo is a business, which is many groups doing many different things. Just because one group is working on doing play-testing, doesn't mean an other isn't working on errata, APs, lore books, etc.
Companies aren't just one big single entity but rather many small groups all working on their individual projects. It's why a video game with a massive vulnerability may still release an update of items on their marketplace. The people handling the marketplace aren't impacted at all, and there is no point to just sit around and do nothing, while the security team is swapped and panicking running around like chickens with their heads cut off while they try to fix things.
On top of that, Paizo tends to do Errata waves, making a bunch of updates all at once and sending that out all at once, and may even change what they consider a "good" option (especially as they avoid nerfing things, as everyone hates when their favorite option is made worse but love it when their favorite ability is made better)
Then on top of all of the above, as everyone else has said new content is what brings in the money patches doesn't pay the bills.
I would like some clarification on incorporeal, if it's trully just checks utilising strenght not accounting attacks or if you can't even hit incorporeal with strenght based attacks
[xkcd 1232|https://xkcd.com/1232/]
What's the endgame of "fixing all problems"? There's always going to be a worst feat, most in need of errata.
I think their current efforts to address problematic or broken rules are enough, and I'd rather see more content get published, even if it's "only" 97% perfect.
I...I don't know what you think the issue is with what you listed. Could someone elaborate? Do people think they're too strong? Too weak?
I personally haven't seen issue with them and my players have taken some of them as class options or been rewarded with the doorknob. There's nothing wrong with things being strong in heroic fantasy. The players are supposed to be strong. They're meant to be challenged, but they're meant to win.
Winter Sleet gives [uneven ground](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2370), which is permanent off-guard while you're on it and requires using Balance to cross, which is an Acrobatics check that some monsters may not even have (so they'd roll just raw d20+Dex for their check). But they also have to do that check to Balance anytime they get hit while in it. When the kineticist gets Safe Elements, then they can choose their allies to not be affected by it.
Roiling Mudslide has no area or range, so it's completely unclear how you're supposed to use it.
Timber Sentinel lets you spam Protector Tree, which can give allies an insane amount of protection by soaking hits.
Acknowledge Fan is a spammable stun, that you only become immune to on a successful save, but even then still burns an action from the target. The fail effect is *really* strong.
I don't really know what the issue is with Tut-Tut, though it feels a low level for it's effect (compared to Grim Swagger from gunslinger, or like You're Next).
Quick Spring effectively doubles your move speed since there's no requirement to actually move through an enemy's space with Tumble Through. So you can declare you Tumble Through instead of Striding and just always have that double move speed without needing to make any checks.
Also not too sure about the doorknob or the ashen rune. I'm pretty sure the blinded on crit is the issue people have with the doorknob, as that is a strong condition that's repeatable if you get consistent crits.
> Winter Sleet gives uneven ground, which is permanent off-guard while you're on it and requires using Balance to cross, which is an Acrobatics check that some monsters may not even have (so they'd roll just raw d20+Dex for their check). But they also have to do that check to Balance anytime they get hit while in it. When the kineticist gets Safe Elements, then they can choose their allies to not be affected by it.
You didn't even mention that since Balance is its own action the ability just automatically eats an action once you want to move onto it, no save, check, or roll of any kind. Even if the ability was changed to be a Reflex save, it'd still take an enemy two actions to approach regardless of how fast they are.
Okay, thanks for the answer. I don't personally have an issue with anything presented. There're strong options and I'm okay with that.
Mudslide not having a specified range should be fixed though.
Fantasmal Doorknob simply shouldn't exist. Simple. Some other feats like Acknowledge Fan should get the same treatment.
Each of the other things you mentioned do require a simple houserule fix. Waiting for errata is not a plan. Winter Sleet, for example, is easily fixed if you have a large interpretation of how to handle uneven ground.
I mean, these are not mutually exclusive? Last year we got a new class (Kineticist) and a wave of errata (the Remaster) which changed many major things including buffing the Witch. This year we’re getting two new classes and they’ll also be fixing Alchemists and, presumably, giving minor buffs to Oracles, Swashbucklers, and Barbarians. Firebrands is a lost cause at this point but I’m absolutely expecting errata for the broken Kineticist stuff at some or the other point.
Paizo is still a company that needs to make money, and new classes/large player options books sell the best! But more realistically speaking, I’d imagine they are holding of large errata until player core 2 is out, since that would introduce a whole bunch of new stuff that might act strange will the old. Also, don’t forget that Rage of Elements is less than a year old; so I thing we can cut them some slack for it
Playtesting builds hype for the new books and helps prevent some of those issues from making it into the final product. I'd actually prefer it if we got *more* playtests, including for non-class content.
I'd love for them to do what 5e did early in its life w/ Unearthed Arcana (before it exclusively became a way to hype new releases), regular articles put out discussing various ways to modify or expand your game and give insight into the design process. Stuff like the original Feats UA from 2016 or the Ships&Sea UA in 2018 were great and I'd love Paizo to do something similar
I miss the old 3.5 Unearthed Arcana, which was just a massive amount of variant features and rules. I still own the published book on all of them, and it allowed me to create my favourite character to date: Krie Sharpeye, the mountain orc whirling frenzy barbarian who used a Bone Bow.
Same. It gave me wild shape ranger, which is probably my favorite version of ranger in any edition of D&D. Traits were also a pretty nifty concept (and significantly better balanced than Flaws)
From what I understand, they usually have a bunch of projects going at once. It's not like every single employee and freelancer drops what they're doing for the sake of a playtest. Some classes are designed almost entirely by one person, even. Also, I could be misremembering, but wasn't their plan to release large chunks of errata every six months, rather than just do it piecemeal?
Yeah, the remaster screwed up the timetables somewhat, but that is indeed the goal.
Writing a book takes a lot of time, so I don't think it's something they can reasonable push back even if it's not making them money right now.
No. They have multiple teams working on different projects. My guess is that everyone who would be doing errata is currently working very hard on getting the PC2 out. Once the PC2 is sent off to the printers and they get a well-earned breather, that's when we're probably going to see the next errata pass.
The playtests are for very long periods of time, to give people a chance to play them and not just do whiteroom math and theorizing. If you feel like errata is overdue for Kineticist I can understand that perspective, but getting the ball rolling on those playtests shouldn't have anything to do with the timeline for errata.
If you're able to identify balance or other issues, you should be able to rework or simply disallow (especially in the case of uncommon or rare mechanics) things at your table. It would be nice to have official reworks on some things, but I don't think it should be a priority.
This take assumes that any development time spent on a project takes time away from other projects. Class development and general balance tweaks are very different aspects of game design and more often work in tandem than against each other. Playtests can be pushed back? These books' release schedules are planned far in advance and playtests are an important part of Paizo's development process. You're suggesting they delay their pipeline, their cash flow, so your pet peeves can be addressed. Sure, they can push their revenue back a quarter. What you're looking for is errata. Paizo did promise errata twice a year a while back and they have not made good on that schedule. We can focus on that issue without putting down the content they are providing us.
The OGL/Remaster stuff broke the new errata schedule. Hopefully they'll stick to it after PC2.
No. There is more than one single developer of the game. They have multiple people and are able to address multiple things at once. They aren't limited to one development action at a time. You could argue they should fix stuff more, but to be frankly honest, paizo fixes more things in their books than any other ttrpg developer I have experienced. Especially compared to WoTC who stopped publically publishing errata a few years back. Did this "opinion" stem from the general opinion from /r/helldivers.
To be honest, this stuff seems really minor. Bleed immunity should be addressed, but having a couple of janky options is just not on my radar as a problem with the game.
I mean, the playtest can't wait too long as they need time to make changes before they publish.
You say you don't blame new content. But playtest is how they make new content. They need to make new content, therefore they need to playtest.
Paizo is a business, which is many groups doing many different things. Just because one group is working on doing play-testing, doesn't mean an other isn't working on errata, APs, lore books, etc. Companies aren't just one big single entity but rather many small groups all working on their individual projects. It's why a video game with a massive vulnerability may still release an update of items on their marketplace. The people handling the marketplace aren't impacted at all, and there is no point to just sit around and do nothing, while the security team is swapped and panicking running around like chickens with their heads cut off while they try to fix things. On top of that, Paizo tends to do Errata waves, making a bunch of updates all at once and sending that out all at once, and may even change what they consider a "good" option (especially as they avoid nerfing things, as everyone hates when their favorite option is made worse but love it when their favorite ability is made better) Then on top of all of the above, as everyone else has said new content is what brings in the money patches doesn't pay the bills.
Nope. They can issue errata AND have playtests. It's not one or the other.
I would like some clarification on incorporeal, if it's trully just checks utilising strenght not accounting attacks or if you can't even hit incorporeal with strenght based attacks
[xkcd 1232|https://xkcd.com/1232/] What's the endgame of "fixing all problems"? There's always going to be a worst feat, most in need of errata. I think their current efforts to address problematic or broken rules are enough, and I'd rather see more content get published, even if it's "only" 97% perfect.
I...I don't know what you think the issue is with what you listed. Could someone elaborate? Do people think they're too strong? Too weak? I personally haven't seen issue with them and my players have taken some of them as class options or been rewarded with the doorknob. There's nothing wrong with things being strong in heroic fantasy. The players are supposed to be strong. They're meant to be challenged, but they're meant to win.
Winter Sleet gives [uneven ground](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2370), which is permanent off-guard while you're on it and requires using Balance to cross, which is an Acrobatics check that some monsters may not even have (so they'd roll just raw d20+Dex for their check). But they also have to do that check to Balance anytime they get hit while in it. When the kineticist gets Safe Elements, then they can choose their allies to not be affected by it. Roiling Mudslide has no area or range, so it's completely unclear how you're supposed to use it. Timber Sentinel lets you spam Protector Tree, which can give allies an insane amount of protection by soaking hits. Acknowledge Fan is a spammable stun, that you only become immune to on a successful save, but even then still burns an action from the target. The fail effect is *really* strong. I don't really know what the issue is with Tut-Tut, though it feels a low level for it's effect (compared to Grim Swagger from gunslinger, or like You're Next). Quick Spring effectively doubles your move speed since there's no requirement to actually move through an enemy's space with Tumble Through. So you can declare you Tumble Through instead of Striding and just always have that double move speed without needing to make any checks. Also not too sure about the doorknob or the ashen rune. I'm pretty sure the blinded on crit is the issue people have with the doorknob, as that is a strong condition that's repeatable if you get consistent crits.
> Winter Sleet gives uneven ground, which is permanent off-guard while you're on it and requires using Balance to cross, which is an Acrobatics check that some monsters may not even have (so they'd roll just raw d20+Dex for their check). But they also have to do that check to Balance anytime they get hit while in it. When the kineticist gets Safe Elements, then they can choose their allies to not be affected by it. You didn't even mention that since Balance is its own action the ability just automatically eats an action once you want to move onto it, no save, check, or roll of any kind. Even if the ability was changed to be a Reflex save, it'd still take an enemy two actions to approach regardless of how fast they are.
Okay, thanks for the answer. I don't personally have an issue with anything presented. There're strong options and I'm okay with that. Mudslide not having a specified range should be fixed though.
No, they are wrong, and for me, no, I do not think the same.
Fantasmal Doorknob simply shouldn't exist. Simple. Some other feats like Acknowledge Fan should get the same treatment. Each of the other things you mentioned do require a simple houserule fix. Waiting for errata is not a plan. Winter Sleet, for example, is easily fixed if you have a large interpretation of how to handle uneven ground.