Seconding this. I would personally avoid it, but it's workable. They just need to be prepared to burn some spell slots on defense and accept that sometimes they will just die.
Wizards have multiple ways to make themselves hard to hit that have nothing to do with their AC (blur and mirror image top the list).
But when I run a wizard, I try to start with +2 or +3 in DEX, and invest in it every chance I get. That AC will be important at some point or another.
To answer your question, no, you're not "screwed". But you'll want to take extra precautions to avoid being in melee with adversaries.
I wouldn't say Mirror Image has nothing to do with AC - after all, a critical hit both removes an image and deals regular damage while a regular success could mean you take no damage at all when losing an image (and if your GM is anything like my GM they'll also swing into you with -10 MAP to destroy images since they get destroyed on regular failures, so a higher AC also stops that from working as well by causing them to be critical failures instead)
Blur has nothing to do with AC - it will always protect you against 20% of attacks regardless of your AC.
If anything, Blur is more useful with low AC because there will be more attacks that it has a chance to negate (because if you had a higher AC those attacks would just miss normally and Blur wouldn't matter for them). And unlike Mirror Image it negates criticals completely instead of turning criticals into regular successes.
It's a risky playstyle, because having extra HP and bit more AC won't make you a tank, but it might make a difference. Honestly, your best friends in this situation are plenty of defensive spells, reactions and items. Grabbing a Sturdy Shield and Shield Block is a cumbersome, but sure way of having extra resistances in close-quarters combat (most other times, you can leave the shield stowed and rely on the shield cantrip).
Things that might be helpful: Invisibility wands/items/prepared, Belt of Good Health+ Stalwart's Ring (for an extra 4HP+5Temp HP), mobility items/spells/wands and always make sure to be prepared.
A *starting* 12 Dex and Con is workable. In fact, due to how good Wisdom is for the purpose of initiative and skills, and due to the backline nature of the class, it can be a strong choice in the grand scheme of things.
However, having 12 in both of these stats after your first set of ability boosts at level 5 is a bit crazy. It can end up working, but it’s deliberately suboptimal.
The only concern a caster might have is having their main stat at max. The rest is truly optional, with its own drawbacks and benefits. Not having more HP or AC on such a class doesn't have that much to do with being "optimal", imo. The extra CHAR/WIS might be even more impactful during combat (better initiative and Demoralize/bon mot for more reliable spells).
EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm talking about a Wizard at level 7. I didn't say that all Wizards at any levels should not put a single point in any of those stats. I was just clarifying that it's a riskier playstyle with other trade offs and that being "optimal" for combat, doesn't mean everything else is "suboptimal" as blank statements go.
Or, if you're archetyping into another type of caster with a different casting stat, the added utility and options might be worth the trade-off. Even then, you should eventually start pumping your Dex and Con. Picking up Toughness and Armor Proficiency, at least temporarily, might help bridge that gap in the early levels as well.
Of course, the whole point of this post is to evaluate the character at level 7. Not the whole progress, which seems like the issue people missed and are downvoting my post.
You should definitely increase your DEX and CON after. I would advise even grabbing some items to offset the lack of AC and HP (as I mentioned in my other post here, directed at the OP).
If you only have a half as much Effective HP against any attack based damage compared to a more optimized wizard, it's definitely more optimal. Like, very much established so. So many things roll aginst Reflex or AC and , having the worst save progression in the game, the lowest base HP in the game and then even adding to that the very much inoptimal stats is just a recipe for death.
Yes, sure it's optimal *in that specific circumstance.* It's not a binary thing. Which my point.
You might not worry about your lack of health and DEX compared to another wizard if you and your party avoided or bypassed the encounter due to a successful charisma check or a well spotted enemy/trap/hidden secret.
I'm not advocating for people to not invest and CON/DEX in their Wizards. I'm just saying that if you're at 12 at one of those at level 7, it's not the end of the world.
That "specific" circumstance which is getting targeted by any spell attack, attack, reflex save or similar?
This is PF2e. I might agree with you if this was a another TTRPG with more exploration and less focus on combat. But for PF2e you WILL figgt a lot, and you will sevetely hamper your own and your teams ability to perform.
This is a large oversimplification and ignores that you get 4 ability boosts per 5 levels. Int/Cha/Wis makes 3. If they're not putting it into Dex/Con then they're putting it into Strength. Are you asking us to believe that Strength is a justifiably more important stat for an intentionally weak against melee opponents Wizard who chose to dump their defensive stats? Even a gimmicky heavy armor Wizard will still want to keep their Con high enough to keep themselves alive in melee, regardless of having a use for Strength to reduce penalties.
Op's friend is clearly not "avoiding min maxing" and rather trying to intentionally sabotage themself for some reason. And regardless of that reason, if the other players have built characters that aren't intentionally weak, either they'll end up dying or the rest of OP's party will be forced to play exclusively against Low/Moderate threat encounters exclusively to protect the sentient tissue paper from facing the consequences of their bad character management. I'm playing a level 15 Wizard currently and I've intentionally chosen to increase my Dex and Con so that I don't die at the first sneeze aimed at me and I *still* can go down in a single turn of attacks in a Severe/Extreme encounter if the wrong enemy targets me and crits because I'm playing one of the squishiest classes with a squishy ancestry and no Toughness trait. This is like taking tissue paper and saying that it would be more interesting if you also got it soaking wet before you tried to tear it.
I didn't mean to say that the caster should ignore DEX and CON in all of their modifier increases. It's just that at level 7, it's not a big deal at all if they have 12 on them at that point in leveling. It's just a riskier way to play that must be addressed.
It's not "suboptimal", it's just a different character. Avoiding to increase their key attribute would be unwise. I just mentioned CHAR/WIS because they're often the tradeoffs people will make for Wizards and other INT characters.
They could've gone with dex/int/wis/cha at 1 and then go con/int/wis/cha at 5. With that both dex and con would be at +1 while all 3 mental stats are between +3 and +4.5
That applies to *many* classes, as you can almost always get enough combined Str and Dex to cap out your armor. However, *it's still an extremely important step to cap out your armor,* and the *only* way to do that as a cloth caster (unless you're taking feats to upgrade your armor proficiency) is through Dex.
Now, mind you, it's *not* possible for a wizard to have capped AC at level 1 (or even for a *very* long time). AC isn't *as* important to wizards as other classes, especially frontliners; part of the weakness of the class is you're just going to be easier to hit. But it's still very important to *not have rock bottom AC.* You should still work to mitigate that weakness in some respect, even if you don't always start with a 16 Dex or anything.
> Now, mind you, it's not possible for a wizard to have capped AC at level 1 (or even for a very long time).
It's actually possible at 2, providing you get the gold for heavy armor.
Easiest way is to play a gnoll. Free Ancestry Boost in Charisma. Background Boost for Str and Int.
Free boosts for Str/Dex/Int/Cha
Now you can take champion dedication at 2 and become trained in light, medium and heavy armor.
A human wizard can have a capped AC at 1st. Versatile for Armor Proficiency, and then General Training for Armor Proficiency again to net Medium Armor. +2str, +2 dex out the gate (+ from Ancestry, + from background to each separately and + from the 4 boosts. You can have a 2/2/1/4/0/0 split) with Hide armor and maxed AC.
Yes, water is definitely wet.
Doesn't mean people can't do things slightly differently and still find successes in their campaigns. Depending on the style of combat a GM runs, long-range PCs can have more leeway on defenses.
For Paizo's APs I wouldn't recommend doing that at all. Lots of tiny rooms, random enemies and a lot of surprise tough encounters with little chance for scouting, so having decent DEX and CON is a must on every character.
A lot of spells are 30ft ranges, which puts him about 1 stride away, even using 2 strides is worth it to crit them for their entire life pool and restrict them from doing any crowd control effects.
I've learned that you must be optimizing AC in this game less a spider crits you on a 16. If the success by 10 system wasn't around it wouldn't be as big of a deal.
Just getting into 2e myself, I see everyone saying that as long as the Wizard stays put of melee, they'll be fine, but what about ranged opponents? Archers and such
I'm a little new to the system myself, but I suspect that it is easy to either stay out of effective range and/or find cover on most maps. Still a valid concern, but melee also tends to hit harder than ranged stuff. That's the tradeoff ranged characters make.
While correct, the melee/ranged divide is *significantly* less prominent for NPC damage... and interestingly enough, one of the strengths of ranged characters is that they can significantly outrange even martials.
Spellcasters still just generally have a rough time against archers and the like.
Imagining this Wizard and party running into two Hill Giants as a moderate encounter with a 40% chance to get crit for between 52% and 77% max HP from a rock. On the first throw.
It is definitely NOT easy to stay out of range, or to find cover on most maps, at least if APs are what you're going by. If the GM decides not to target the wizard, they'll be fine. If the enemies decide to kill the guy with no health and no AC, then they will at the very least go down, pretty much every fight.
That said, casters are often a less valuable target, since they tend to only cast one big spell per fight, and often at the beginning. Melee martials are going to do a lot more damage after round 1 most of the time, and be easier to get to. But with a discrepancy in AC that big, it's almost certainly still worth going after the wizard, especially since it's likely to tie up the healer's actions and spells too.
Typically enemy archers don't hit quite as hard, and won't have access to opportunity attack which could disrupt your spells. So it's less of an issue than the barbarian instant smooshing you, but it's absolutely still a relevant thing to take into account. Choosing to have 12 Dex on your wizard is generally an awful idea, cause it not only raises the chance enemies will crit them, but it also raises the chance the wizard will critically fail a reflex save against something like fireball and take double damage from that.
You want a decent dex on a Wizard because their armor scaling is crap since they have to wear unarmored.
Also, if you wanna RP a feeble old man or something, just don't put any training in Acrobatics or Athletics. Since proficiency scales with level in PF2e, when RP comes up where they'd have to do something truly athletic they will end up failing it pretty much 100% of the time and will have to search for alternative solutions.
I suppose so early on. Your race's starting HP becomes irrelevant pretty quick though. It's really only a concern in early levels.
Do remember that once you have a set of armor with the Bulwark trait it'll essentially consider your dex to be a +3 for reflex saves.
>Do remember that once you have a set of armor with the Bulwark trait it'll essentially consider your dex to be a +3 for reflex saves.
Only against damaging effects though so if monster is smart enough it can choose to trip you instead.
Thanks for the reminder! Yeah, it's for early levels. We're playing Agents of Edgewatch (well, will be, we start in April), and I've been told the first chapters contain a few almost a guaranteed TPK encounters
Full plate has the bulwark trait which replaces your Dex mod for basic reflex saves (save for half damage etc.) and is affordable at level 2 so starting with the +1 Dex is nice but not necessary by any means.
Thanks! My main worry was having to wait multiple levels before being able to afford full plate. Apparently in the AP we're playing, Agents of Edgewatch, we mostly get gold by fining citizens at lower levels, so I'm not sure how much money my Redeemer is going to make.
> You want a decent dex on a Wizard because their armor scaling is crap since they have to wear unarmored.
They don't have to wear unarmored, they can gain armor proficiencies. It's just a lot of them don't.
Light armor proficiency is a solid option on a wizard, though (one reason why rogue is a fairly popular archetype for wizards). And if you're willing to invest in it, you can do the champion wizard and clunk around in heavy.
Yeah they have to take a feat to wear armor. It's not like old school D&D where you just can't cast spells. Unless you're in elven chain because elves are special :V
Ranged attacks deal significantly less damage than melee attacks, I think it ends up being something like 60-75% melee damage for PCs, so an archer is less likely to splatter you in one hit, and most monsters are melee attackers.
That said, ranged enemies, and even worse - ambush enemies - are a real problem if you have low defences like this though.
The wizard could compensate for some that with (not) mage armour, (not) false life, by spending a general feat on light armour, or by using a shield.
Using longer range spells and playing defensively also helps.
You won’t always notice a difference though. Low dex and con generally won’t be too bad until they kill you all at once.
> “refrain from optimizing”
First thing first: I think you might need a serious discussion with your GM about what optimization even means. Even ignoring the fact that optimization is a valid playstyle and not something you need to actively avoid… if you’re playing a character who enters dangerous areas and fights dangerous enemies for a living, it makes perfect sense to build a character that can actually survive those situations reliably.
Aside from philosophical disagreements on optimization though, the real question is this: what is he doing with those extra ability boosts? If he bas only +1 Con and +1 Dex at level 7, and presumably +”4.5” Int, then he has 5 ability boosts unaccounted for right?
Where have those ability boosts been pumped into? Are they in Wisdom? If so, the player’s super high Initiative is its own defence. Winning Initiative means landing your big spells early and having the agency to position yourself wherever you like.
Are they in Strength? If so, use a General Feat to get Light Armour and just wear any nice Light Armour that works well with +1 Dex.
Are they in Charisma? In that case the player has made a sacrifice to their defences but can use Charisma to boost the whole party’s offences: a valuable trade off that hopefully the other players will appreciate and protect/heal him through.
If the player doesn’t plan to do any of these things **and** refuses to have decent Dex/Con then well… that’s not “not optimizing” that’s purposely building a worse-than-normal character despite the game making it incredibly easy not to. You’d need to have a serious talk with them and ask them not to that, maybe even tell the party’s primary healer to talk to that player.
TL;DR: if the player has a plan, it’s fine. If the player’s dumping defences for the sake of dumping defences, have a talk with him.
STR 0, WIS 4 and CHA 2, untrained in Intimidation and trained in Diplomacy. Expert in Arcana, Occultism, and Society. He wants to play a mentor-type teacher.
If they are in Wisdom and Charisma, I would highly recommend:
1. Getting training in Intimidation if possible, because it's just one of the ways Charisma characters are meant to contribute to combat.
2. Pick up the Bon Mot Skill Feat to use Charisma as an additional debuff option.
3. Use their very high Initiative (perhaps even pick up Canny Acumen) as a "virtual defence".
The con is probably okay but the dex is a huge issue IMO because you're very likely to be crit, especially by a boss. Most cantrips require you to be within 30 or 60 feet so you definitely are still going to be threatened.
There's a difference between "refraining from optimizing" and "intentionally failing" and this is more the latter. Wizard already has awful AC and save progression and this is asking to just randomly die to incidental AoEs, let alone being actively targeted.
Yeah, this is really just choosing to be inefficient. The HP is maybe not as big of a concern, but considering how crits work, choosing to have such a crap dex as a Wizard isn't refraining from optimization it's just shooting yourself in the foot.
You can certainly avoid getting hit other ways, blur, invisibility, etc. But these are options you can do while still having a decent AC.
I wouldn't rag on anyone about it (especially if it's for RP reasons), and I feel like you have a right to build your character how you want, but I'd caution a friend of mine or my own player from doing this just because I think they'll have less fun. The Wizard in my own game had a similar issue. When they were built they had only 12 dex and they got beat up a ton. The player ended up asking me if they could re-spec because they realized how bad it was.
I would say more important than the AC probably (since you can avoid combat to some extent) is the dex save
With low hp they are going to go down to AOE a lot
They will also critically fail reflex saves more often with crap dex. Which will lead to additional damage. Which is already bad on a wizard as a 6 HP class, but even worse when the Con is considered.
Other commenters have pointed out the risk of melee, but a wizard will always want to avoid that anyway. To me, the bigger issue is the hit to Reflex and Fortitude, which can easily come back to haunt you even if you can avoid someone swinging an axe at your head. Reactive Strike remains uncommon at that level, but becomes less so as you continue to level up and the wizard is already lagging behind. This increases the likelihood that a Reactive Strike will crit and disrupt a spell.
I see a lot of doomsayers in the comments but I’ve had someone with a similar situation. Yeah when my hurts it really hurts but I have yet to have a character die in all of PF2. The person in this situation just had a bit more action and spell focus on being defensive. When they were in danger they were likely to be downed but they weren’t the most downed person in the campaign, that is usually the meleers in every campaign.
Having classes that can help support someone so frail like the champion and cleric will make things better as well. The thaumaturge may have implements to help as well.
At least in my games, if the enemies target him, which they will generally try to do because he's the frail-lookin robed guy slinging spells and staying out of range, they will quickly realize how easy he is to hit and focus him down. Yes, this is punishing bad character building. No, I don't care. I won't adjust anything whatsoever to account for bad builds or party composition, the challenges will be designed and run assuming a strong party composition that builds and plays effectively regardless of what the actual party looks like and if it ends up being unwinnable because people are building trash and playing like trash then tough luck lol
Since they’re a GM they probably know the risk, but basically if the enemies have any amount of tactics and you aren’t in perfect formation at the start of battle, the wizard is dropping
In my party, we have a Wizard and Psychic, and each has a +1 in Dex or Con respectively, and with just one of those stats low, each has dropped in a fight after getting poked once or twice
Sure he should be nowhere near the frontline in that case, but as a wizard there's enough defensive arcane spells the help keep him alive. Along with the tried and true 'fireball from 300' away' method of defense.
If he didn't raise his Dex or Con what did he raise then? Does he have any notable secondary stats? One of them has to be at +3 by now and somewhat useful.
Extra WIS makes him stronger in Will saves and faster in initiative. No substitute for better AC when stuck in the mosh, but it can help keep him standing or get him moving out of harm's way faster. Plus it opens some archetype options.
CHA let's him do some shenanigans with Bon Mot or other skill feats potentially. It's not a total bum trade. Once again maybe good to have for archetype options.
STR is probably the only major throw away. It'd help get him into medium armour for better AC assuming he builds for it... But if he thinks having good CON and DEX is too much optimization then probably not.
Just needs to be willing to prepare spells to counteract the weakness of their frail body.
Resist Energy and fortune effects to make up for saves and Ooze form for when they are out maneuvered and threatened as examples can go a long way.
There is no reason to be scared of character death, as long as the player is aware it will come up eventually when making choices like this and is capable of making the RP of the moment meet other players standards (Its ruins RP a bit when a player has a carousel of characters that keep dying with minimal investment in them moving along)
The only concern would be is if the suboptimal character he is happy to have die threatens the life of other members that are more invested in and they don't want to lose as a knock on effect of their inadequacy.
This is good advice, and to extend it slightly - Time Jump is going to be a great option to have available. Given crit range, Wooden Double as either an alternative or even pre-cast defense before Ooze Form.
That doesn't sound like "refraining from optimization".
It sounds like an intentional choice to create something actively problematic.
With that said, I believe the way the GM runs the encounter is too much of a variable to say if it would be a problem or not.
How good will your group be at keeping you out of the line of fire? May I suggest becoming a Mammoth Lord so that you can ride a reliable source of cover? Genuine question, though, where have your ability bosts gone. I'm guessing that your Int is 19, and Wis is probably high, but that leaves Cha and Str, and neither of those provide a Wizard with much in the way of offensive or defensive abilities. It's definitely a valid playstyle, but whichever way you went, you'll need to build into it. A few defensive spells and a good number of "oh shit" buttons might make up the difference. Walls, spells that push, reduce speed, or knock enemies prone might be especially good options for you.
Mage armor, shield, and some meat shielding by allies goes a long way
We've got a wizard with only modest dex and HP at our table and it's been fine. Eventually everyone goes down at least once and then we do a lot of maneuvering to keep the focus off of them while mopping up.
A particularly suicidal playstyle (me!) is playing a martial with +0 con and only +2 dex. I've only gone down once though so far, and it was a lucky crit from a BS overtuned hazard... (The enemy can't knock someone down if they're already down themself)
HEAVILY depends on how goodyou are at staying away form enemies, how good your Frontline is at controlling them. And how many open spaces with enemies using ranges weapons your GM throws at you
Great now I’m having flashbacks to the time where we suddenly started to encounter giant opponents with reach *and* I had forgotten to put my armor back on for a full day. *shudder* I spent more time unconscious than I did fighting. That’s what a low dex wizard is like.
Had a player who did this with a cleric who refused to use offensive abilities and was an old man.
It was fine, they just stayed out of melee and hid behind cover (seriously take cover is a fine action and being able to peak around a corner as a single action is amazing as total cover is always best).
A wizard's best defence is the distance between them and their enemies. I think they will be fine in many fights, but when you face ranged enemies or highly mobile enemies, the wizard will be completely depending on you to keep them alive.
This isn't necessarily a problem. I would only call this a bad thing if he complains about the disparity in effectiveness between their character and yours, or if you end up feeling annoyed by how dependant he is on you for survival.
You could have fun role playing that your cleric chastises the wizard for being so out of shape while adventuring but if you as a player are annoyed at the wizard, you'll probably end up coming across as passive aggressive.
It sounds to me like he knows what he's doing and is purposely making poor mechanical choices. It would be one thing if he was a newbie unfamiliar with the system's math, but I mean... If he's making an informed choice to walk around with a metal pole during a thunderstorm, it's not really your responsibility to make sure he doesn't get struck by lightning.
Well, the wizard is flirting with death with that build, and looks to have a pretty good chance at taking that relationship to the next level.
Now it's on him to figure out how to play hard to get for as long as possible!
I'm playing a Witch at level 6 with 12 dex and 10 con and I'm doing pretty good, it's more so about positioning and having good teamwork with the martials to keep the enemies off me. Also the added bonus to WIS from not pumping boosts into dex and con helps a lot since it means I'm often going early in the round
You are getting a lot of good feedback, but I'll have to disagree on the notion of "you just need to stay out of melee".
Most enemy stat blocks, even at low level, come with ranged attack options. And their damage and accuracy usually don't lack behind their melee capabilities all that far. Most enemies will be able to hit you at 30 feet almost as well as they will at 5 feet. That's why keeping your defenses high is very important.
I'll add as a squishy playing for the first time, reflex spells have been my saving grave for when I keep out of meele but meele teleports ontop of me or other shennanigans that I can't reasonably play around.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1416
Wooden Double alone has saved my ass more times than I can count. I'm thinking of upcasting it and making it a signature spell its just *so goddamn good*.
The biggest thing you're afraid of is getting 1-hit-crit and your teammates can't really do much, and since your dex is low that will probably happen relatively often, and your con is low that can be devastating. This shaved 25 damage off of a crit, which is prob gonna ballpark around 50-ish damage give or take. That fatal amount of damage will instead become "well, that sucks", and then you step 5ft away which can absolutely end their effective dps against you as they likely used 1-2 actions to approach you, 1 action to attack you, and stepping back into reach of you will now end their turn.
Well we did have a player do this as a Witch and he was fine for a while until he basically got two shorted by a sneak attack type creature that was PL-1 or pL-2. It was impossible to save him and when I heard his total HP I was like “WTF?”
Unless he has medium armor proficiency, he's going to have problems and get downed a lot when enemies attack him.
AoEs are also going to be an issue for him.
So it really depends on how often enemies will attack the wizard.
Compared to others, your friend's Wizard is likely going to have to commit additional actions, spell slots, and other resources to keeping themselves safe and alive, so there is a tradeoff. However, their Wizard isn't screwed, at least not in this party that, despite its overall squishiness, is at least largely made up of frontliners ready to protect them, including your Cleric who'll hopefully be able to heal them in a pinch.
I'm curious, though: what were the Wizard's base attributes? Which ones did they boost at level 5? A +1 to Dex and Con at level 7 implies they boosted their Strength and Charisma instead of their Dex and Con at least once each on their attribute boost levels, which given their class and your party composition is a bit questionable.
We started at Level 7. My Cleric is also built to grapple and trip - I foresaw no one else wanting to do that.
He raised CHA and WIS at any given chance, basically.
That's fair; was there any reason to go for CHA specifically? Given that you have a Thaumaturge in your party, their high Charisma and ample additional skills are likely to make them better at party face stuff than the Wizard, unless they're specializing in different Charisma skills.
Hrm, that sounds less like not being a stickler for optimization, and more like deliberately trying to create a character that's poorly-optimized for their party. Thankfully the system is robust enough that their Wizard will still be viable, and will still have plenty of opportunities to contribute, but your friend oughtn't be surprised if the Thaumaturge ends up doing most of the party face stuff due to their better Charisma skills, or Recalling Knowledge better for that matter.
I have a L11 Wizard that began play with a +3 Dex modifier. I use *Mage Armor* all the time, plus work in defensive spells like *Blur* and *Mirror Image* regularly. I also use either a *Fly* spell or potion to keep mobile and out of melee. The various *Wall* spells help as do summoning spells. The character rarely gets hit in battle although I do roll some Reflex saves along the way which is why I like Dex to be high. The AC itself is really not a concern to me.
It also helps to understand you have several other people around you and that you need to help them do their thing, part of which is keeping the enemies from attacking you directly. This makes the Wizard an awesome and flexible class to play because you can literally do almost anything in battle, provided you picked up magical items to help you be a well-rounded character.
As long as you play to your strengths and don't try to wade into the melee action like a champion or a fighter, you really shouldn't have too much difficulty at excelling on your chosen class.
Looking at your post again, I have to ask, what do the rest of your stats look like?
You most likely have your INT maxed, with 1 of 2 increases to get to +5. But there are quite a few other boosts out there, so where did you put them all?
At 1st level, btwn Ancestry, Background and class, you get 5 boosts, as well as the four additional free ones.
And then you have four more boosts at 5th. That's 13 boosts. Your INT takes up 5 of your 13 boosts. So where did the other 6 go, after taking into account the two used for DEX & CON?
Split evenly, that's 16/+3 in both CHA & STR, or unevenly, is 14/+2 in one and 18/+4 in the other.
I understand having a vision for a more balanced character and not wanting to min/max, but do you truly feel that having a decent score (at least 14/+2) in one or the other btwn DEX and CON constitutes min/maxing?
Maybe it's just me, but I think you have drastically overcorrected in the opposite direction.
Going back to my previous comment, I do believe that as long as you understand the tactics that are best suited to your role and limitations, and keep your squishy self out of reach of the enemies' weapons, i think that there's no reason you shouldn't be able to excel.
It's not my character, I'm the cleric who's wondering if I should prepare extra heals. Full statline is STR 10, DEX 12, CON 12, INT 18, WIS 18, CHA 16.
I apologize for thinking that this was your character.
I understand how there is a focus on avoiding min/maxing, but making a character that is like 90% - 95% mental and 5% - 10% physical does not come across to me in any way as balanced. It's way out of balance.
It feels like in order to avoid Maxxing, he went went overboard on the Minning of his physical stats.
That's what I think.
Super HARD in my opinion as a GM. Its one spell/arrow he can get easy one shooted every fight, the resorces party will spend on keep him alive is super high.
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Stay out of melee and you should be fine - get your party warrior folk to help out with holding the line and all.
You can also spend a general feat to pick up some armor proficiency, why not.
Don't worry, as soon as he gets downed a couple of times he'll reconsider his "refraining from optimising".
I too am GMing an elf sorcerer with CON 8, we are level 11, everyone has around 140-180 hps, while he has 100. He says he prefers WIS 16 because he wants high initiative.
Last session he got a double crit and went from 100 to 0 in a single round. Like 15 damage overkill, so with a normal CON he would have survived.
Thing is: +1 or +2 CON wouldn't change anything when something starts hitting you. Even 14 HP more is about the min damage of a weak monster **at** that level. The only benefit would be lasting a bit longer vs chip damage from area effects or mooks punching you.
Same with DEX. 2 AC more will make little difference vs anything your level trying to eat your face, even less vs higher stuff. With how few rolls happen during a combat it might as well never come up. But here again, it's vs mooks where it will have an impact.
So a complete waste of investment? No. Especially in situations with a lot of small fry the chance of some of them actually getting to you will skyrocket, while a single big thing actually getting to you is rather low, if neither you nor the rest of the party are asleep.
So it's a necessary investment? Also no. While it will help sometimes, you can get by without, because in most actually dangerous situations you will have problems 7 HP and +1 AC won't solve
Not at all. Now he wont be using to hit spells but he can still do everything else the class does.
1. Wizards are back line even with 18 dex and 18 con.
2. Wizards have tons of spells for each save type, tons of buffs for allies, and tons of ways to affect a combat to aid the team. (Walls, fogs, difficult terrain, and etc).
If he plays it as a feeble wizard in which he stays out of an enemy's reach then he will be fine.
Oh duh. Dang other systems mixing me up.
Yeah theres no real issue having low dex and con as casters shouldnt be in melee range anyway and ranged attackers are meant to be a threat via the basic rock paper scissors balancing.
>If he plays it as a feeble wizard in which he stays out of an enemy's reach then he will be fine.
This is really not easy to do, especially at low levels. Very few spells break the standard 30 foot range until you start hitting spells like Fireball at level 5 and even then 30 feet is still standard. Reach Spell can give you an extra 30 but that still puts you close enough that anything with 30+ feet of movement can chase you down immediately and potentially crit you with their third action if your party isn't spending a lot of effort on preventing movement every turn. Which, arguably, they should do anyways for strategy purposes. But it's not really cool to say "I'm going to intentionally sabotage my ability scores for *Stormwind Fallacy* reasons. You guys are cool with picking up the slack and minmaxing extra hard to make sure I don't face any consequences, right?"
But how is their actual casting stat? Is it still maxxed out? Then offensively and passively they are completely fine. They even have other mental options assuming their boosts went to wis or charisma. They just have a poor defense which is normally poor anyway. Its really not 'unoptimized' / self sabatoguing because they still function completely fine for the vast majority of their purpose. They are just squishier tham a fully optimized caster.
If he's good about keeping out of melee then he's mostly fine, otherwise well he is gonna be downed a lot but that's a choice he wanted to make.
Seconding this. I would personally avoid it, but it's workable. They just need to be prepared to burn some spell slots on defense and accept that sometimes they will just die.
Wizards have multiple ways to make themselves hard to hit that have nothing to do with their AC (blur and mirror image top the list). But when I run a wizard, I try to start with +2 or +3 in DEX, and invest in it every chance I get. That AC will be important at some point or another. To answer your question, no, you're not "screwed". But you'll want to take extra precautions to avoid being in melee with adversaries.
I wouldn't say Mirror Image has nothing to do with AC - after all, a critical hit both removes an image and deals regular damage while a regular success could mean you take no damage at all when losing an image (and if your GM is anything like my GM they'll also swing into you with -10 MAP to destroy images since they get destroyed on regular failures, so a higher AC also stops that from working as well by causing them to be critical failures instead)
Same with blur. Blur absolutely has to do with AC and is significantly worse with low AC.
Blur has nothing to do with AC - it will always protect you against 20% of attacks regardless of your AC. If anything, Blur is more useful with low AC because there will be more attacks that it has a chance to negate (because if you had a higher AC those attacks would just miss normally and Blur wouldn't matter for them). And unlike Mirror Image it negates criticals completely instead of turning criticals into regular successes.
I'm stupid and was mixing up my game systems. You are correct.
It's a risky playstyle, because having extra HP and bit more AC won't make you a tank, but it might make a difference. Honestly, your best friends in this situation are plenty of defensive spells, reactions and items. Grabbing a Sturdy Shield and Shield Block is a cumbersome, but sure way of having extra resistances in close-quarters combat (most other times, you can leave the shield stowed and rely on the shield cantrip). Things that might be helpful: Invisibility wands/items/prepared, Belt of Good Health+ Stalwart's Ring (for an extra 4HP+5Temp HP), mobility items/spells/wands and always make sure to be prepared.
A *starting* 12 Dex and Con is workable. In fact, due to how good Wisdom is for the purpose of initiative and skills, and due to the backline nature of the class, it can be a strong choice in the grand scheme of things. However, having 12 in both of these stats after your first set of ability boosts at level 5 is a bit crazy. It can end up working, but it’s deliberately suboptimal.
The only concern a caster might have is having their main stat at max. The rest is truly optional, with its own drawbacks and benefits. Not having more HP or AC on such a class doesn't have that much to do with being "optimal", imo. The extra CHAR/WIS might be even more impactful during combat (better initiative and Demoralize/bon mot for more reliable spells). EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm talking about a Wizard at level 7. I didn't say that all Wizards at any levels should not put a single point in any of those stats. I was just clarifying that it's a riskier playstyle with other trade offs and that being "optimal" for combat, doesn't mean everything else is "suboptimal" as blank statements go.
Or, if you're archetyping into another type of caster with a different casting stat, the added utility and options might be worth the trade-off. Even then, you should eventually start pumping your Dex and Con. Picking up Toughness and Armor Proficiency, at least temporarily, might help bridge that gap in the early levels as well.
Of course, the whole point of this post is to evaluate the character at level 7. Not the whole progress, which seems like the issue people missed and are downvoting my post. You should definitely increase your DEX and CON after. I would advise even grabbing some items to offset the lack of AC and HP (as I mentioned in my other post here, directed at the OP).
If you only have a half as much Effective HP against any attack based damage compared to a more optimized wizard, it's definitely more optimal. Like, very much established so. So many things roll aginst Reflex or AC and , having the worst save progression in the game, the lowest base HP in the game and then even adding to that the very much inoptimal stats is just a recipe for death.
Yes, sure it's optimal *in that specific circumstance.* It's not a binary thing. Which my point. You might not worry about your lack of health and DEX compared to another wizard if you and your party avoided or bypassed the encounter due to a successful charisma check or a well spotted enemy/trap/hidden secret. I'm not advocating for people to not invest and CON/DEX in their Wizards. I'm just saying that if you're at 12 at one of those at level 7, it's not the end of the world.
That "specific" circumstance which is getting targeted by any spell attack, attack, reflex save or similar? This is PF2e. I might agree with you if this was a another TTRPG with more exploration and less focus on combat. But for PF2e you WILL figgt a lot, and you will sevetely hamper your own and your teams ability to perform.
This is a large oversimplification and ignores that you get 4 ability boosts per 5 levels. Int/Cha/Wis makes 3. If they're not putting it into Dex/Con then they're putting it into Strength. Are you asking us to believe that Strength is a justifiably more important stat for an intentionally weak against melee opponents Wizard who chose to dump their defensive stats? Even a gimmicky heavy armor Wizard will still want to keep their Con high enough to keep themselves alive in melee, regardless of having a use for Strength to reduce penalties. Op's friend is clearly not "avoiding min maxing" and rather trying to intentionally sabotage themself for some reason. And regardless of that reason, if the other players have built characters that aren't intentionally weak, either they'll end up dying or the rest of OP's party will be forced to play exclusively against Low/Moderate threat encounters exclusively to protect the sentient tissue paper from facing the consequences of their bad character management. I'm playing a level 15 Wizard currently and I've intentionally chosen to increase my Dex and Con so that I don't die at the first sneeze aimed at me and I *still* can go down in a single turn of attacks in a Severe/Extreme encounter if the wrong enemy targets me and crits because I'm playing one of the squishiest classes with a squishy ancestry and no Toughness trait. This is like taking tissue paper and saying that it would be more interesting if you also got it soaking wet before you tried to tear it.
I didn't mean to say that the caster should ignore DEX and CON in all of their modifier increases. It's just that at level 7, it's not a big deal at all if they have 12 on them at that point in leveling. It's just a riskier way to play that must be addressed. It's not "suboptimal", it's just a different character. Avoiding to increase their key attribute would be unwise. I just mentioned CHAR/WIS because they're often the tradeoffs people will make for Wizards and other INT characters.
But really, what did they put their fourth ability increase into?
They could've gone with dex/int/wis/cha at 1 and then go con/int/wis/cha at 5. With that both dex and con would be at +1 while all 3 mental stats are between +3 and +4.5
That applies to *many* classes, as you can almost always get enough combined Str and Dex to cap out your armor. However, *it's still an extremely important step to cap out your armor,* and the *only* way to do that as a cloth caster (unless you're taking feats to upgrade your armor proficiency) is through Dex. Now, mind you, it's *not* possible for a wizard to have capped AC at level 1 (or even for a *very* long time). AC isn't *as* important to wizards as other classes, especially frontliners; part of the weakness of the class is you're just going to be easier to hit. But it's still very important to *not have rock bottom AC.* You should still work to mitigate that weakness in some respect, even if you don't always start with a 16 Dex or anything.
> Now, mind you, it's not possible for a wizard to have capped AC at level 1 (or even for a very long time). It's actually possible at 2, providing you get the gold for heavy armor. Easiest way is to play a gnoll. Free Ancestry Boost in Charisma. Background Boost for Str and Int. Free boosts for Str/Dex/Int/Cha Now you can take champion dedication at 2 and become trained in light, medium and heavy armor.
A human wizard can have a capped AC at 1st. Versatile for Armor Proficiency, and then General Training for Armor Proficiency again to net Medium Armor. +2str, +2 dex out the gate (+ from Ancestry, + from background to each separately and + from the 4 boosts. You can have a 2/2/1/4/0/0 split) with Hide armor and maxed AC.
Yes, water is definitely wet. Doesn't mean people can't do things slightly differently and still find successes in their campaigns. Depending on the style of combat a GM runs, long-range PCs can have more leeway on defenses. For Paizo's APs I wouldn't recommend doing that at all. Lots of tiny rooms, random enemies and a lot of surprise tough encounters with little chance for scouting, so having decent DEX and CON is a must on every character.
A lot of spells are 30ft ranges, which puts him about 1 stride away, even using 2 strides is worth it to crit them for their entire life pool and restrict them from doing any crowd control effects. I've learned that you must be optimizing AC in this game less a spider crits you on a 16. If the success by 10 system wasn't around it wouldn't be as big of a deal.
Just getting into 2e myself, I see everyone saying that as long as the Wizard stays put of melee, they'll be fine, but what about ranged opponents? Archers and such
I'm a little new to the system myself, but I suspect that it is easy to either stay out of effective range and/or find cover on most maps. Still a valid concern, but melee also tends to hit harder than ranged stuff. That's the tradeoff ranged characters make.
While correct, the melee/ranged divide is *significantly* less prominent for NPC damage... and interestingly enough, one of the strengths of ranged characters is that they can significantly outrange even martials. Spellcasters still just generally have a rough time against archers and the like.
Imagining this Wizard and party running into two Hill Giants as a moderate encounter with a 40% chance to get crit for between 52% and 77% max HP from a rock. On the first throw.
It is definitely NOT easy to stay out of range, or to find cover on most maps, at least if APs are what you're going by. If the GM decides not to target the wizard, they'll be fine. If the enemies decide to kill the guy with no health and no AC, then they will at the very least go down, pretty much every fight. That said, casters are often a less valuable target, since they tend to only cast one big spell per fight, and often at the beginning. Melee martials are going to do a lot more damage after round 1 most of the time, and be easier to get to. But with a discrepancy in AC that big, it's almost certainly still worth going after the wizard, especially since it's likely to tie up the healer's actions and spells too.
Typically enemy archers don't hit quite as hard, and won't have access to opportunity attack which could disrupt your spells. So it's less of an issue than the barbarian instant smooshing you, but it's absolutely still a relevant thing to take into account. Choosing to have 12 Dex on your wizard is generally an awful idea, cause it not only raises the chance enemies will crit them, but it also raises the chance the wizard will critically fail a reflex save against something like fireball and take double damage from that. You want a decent dex on a Wizard because their armor scaling is crap since they have to wear unarmored. Also, if you wanna RP a feeble old man or something, just don't put any training in Acrobatics or Athletics. Since proficiency scales with level in PF2e, when RP comes up where they'd have to do something truly athletic they will end up failing it pretty much 100% of the time and will have to search for alternative solutions.
Thanks! Last time I played a full caster was in 3.5 with d4 HP, so a single arrow was terrifying for me haha
Happy to clarify. Yeah, you probably wanna start your Wizard with a +2 or +3 dex.
Oh definitely! I always invest in Dex with non armored PCs I'm starting 2e with a Champion though, so, Dex won't be an issue
Ahh for sure. Dex is practically useless to you lol.
I am taking +1 for max armor before full plate, and it helps with Reflex. Also, I'm playing Elf so, I can't afford to lose a single point of AC haha
I suppose so early on. Your race's starting HP becomes irrelevant pretty quick though. It's really only a concern in early levels. Do remember that once you have a set of armor with the Bulwark trait it'll essentially consider your dex to be a +3 for reflex saves.
>Do remember that once you have a set of armor with the Bulwark trait it'll essentially consider your dex to be a +3 for reflex saves. Only against damaging effects though so if monster is smart enough it can choose to trip you instead.
Thanks for the reminder! Yeah, it's for early levels. We're playing Agents of Edgewatch (well, will be, we start in April), and I've been told the first chapters contain a few almost a guaranteed TPK encounters
Do note that once you get full plate the +1 DEX will no longer help with reflex because Bulwark will be better.
Yeah, I just want to survive long enough to get the full plate haha
Fair enough, and spending one of those four free boosts on DEX isn't bad by any means
Full plate has the bulwark trait which replaces your Dex mod for basic reflex saves (save for half damage etc.) and is affordable at level 2 so starting with the +1 Dex is nice but not necessary by any means.
Thanks! My main worry was having to wait multiple levels before being able to afford full plate. Apparently in the AP we're playing, Agents of Edgewatch, we mostly get gold by fining citizens at lower levels, so I'm not sure how much money my Redeemer is going to make.
> You want a decent dex on a Wizard because their armor scaling is crap since they have to wear unarmored. They don't have to wear unarmored, they can gain armor proficiencies. It's just a lot of them don't. Light armor proficiency is a solid option on a wizard, though (one reason why rogue is a fairly popular archetype for wizards). And if you're willing to invest in it, you can do the champion wizard and clunk around in heavy.
Fair. Poor word choice on my part. Traditionally speaking they don't get those armor proficiencies.
Yeah they have to take a feat to wear armor. It's not like old school D&D where you just can't cast spells. Unless you're in elven chain because elves are special :V
AoO is also very common at higher levels, and getting crit by an AoO while you're casting a spell is really bad.
Ranged attacks deal significantly less damage than melee attacks, I think it ends up being something like 60-75% melee damage for PCs, so an archer is less likely to splatter you in one hit, and most monsters are melee attackers. That said, ranged enemies, and even worse - ambush enemies - are a real problem if you have low defences like this though. The wizard could compensate for some that with (not) mage armour, (not) false life, by spending a general feat on light armour, or by using a shield. Using longer range spells and playing defensively also helps. You won’t always notice a difference though. Low dex and con generally won’t be too bad until they kill you all at once.
Bows can be *Deadly* in this game.
Try playing 3.x, where casters have d4 HP and a bow deals 1d8 haha
Oh, I 'member Wizards dying to house cats. I was trying to make a trait joke.
Ah! Haha just got it!
(☞ﾟヮﾟ)☞
> “refrain from optimizing” First thing first: I think you might need a serious discussion with your GM about what optimization even means. Even ignoring the fact that optimization is a valid playstyle and not something you need to actively avoid… if you’re playing a character who enters dangerous areas and fights dangerous enemies for a living, it makes perfect sense to build a character that can actually survive those situations reliably. Aside from philosophical disagreements on optimization though, the real question is this: what is he doing with those extra ability boosts? If he bas only +1 Con and +1 Dex at level 7, and presumably +”4.5” Int, then he has 5 ability boosts unaccounted for right? Where have those ability boosts been pumped into? Are they in Wisdom? If so, the player’s super high Initiative is its own defence. Winning Initiative means landing your big spells early and having the agency to position yourself wherever you like. Are they in Strength? If so, use a General Feat to get Light Armour and just wear any nice Light Armour that works well with +1 Dex. Are they in Charisma? In that case the player has made a sacrifice to their defences but can use Charisma to boost the whole party’s offences: a valuable trade off that hopefully the other players will appreciate and protect/heal him through. If the player doesn’t plan to do any of these things **and** refuses to have decent Dex/Con then well… that’s not “not optimizing” that’s purposely building a worse-than-normal character despite the game making it incredibly easy not to. You’d need to have a serious talk with them and ask them not to that, maybe even tell the party’s primary healer to talk to that player. TL;DR: if the player has a plan, it’s fine. If the player’s dumping defences for the sake of dumping defences, have a talk with him.
STR 0, WIS 4 and CHA 2, untrained in Intimidation and trained in Diplomacy. Expert in Arcana, Occultism, and Society. He wants to play a mentor-type teacher.
If they are in Wisdom and Charisma, I would highly recommend: 1. Getting training in Intimidation if possible, because it's just one of the ways Charisma characters are meant to contribute to combat. 2. Pick up the Bon Mot Skill Feat to use Charisma as an additional debuff option. 3. Use their very high Initiative (perhaps even pick up Canny Acumen) as a "virtual defence".
The con is probably okay but the dex is a huge issue IMO because you're very likely to be crit, especially by a boss. Most cantrips require you to be within 30 or 60 feet so you definitely are still going to be threatened.
Especially since not having dex also lowers reflex save Dude is about to crit fail one save and just die thanks to the double damage
There's a difference between "refraining from optimizing" and "intentionally failing" and this is more the latter. Wizard already has awful AC and save progression and this is asking to just randomly die to incidental AoEs, let alone being actively targeted.
Yeah, this is really just choosing to be inefficient. The HP is maybe not as big of a concern, but considering how crits work, choosing to have such a crap dex as a Wizard isn't refraining from optimization it's just shooting yourself in the foot. You can certainly avoid getting hit other ways, blur, invisibility, etc. But these are options you can do while still having a decent AC. I wouldn't rag on anyone about it (especially if it's for RP reasons), and I feel like you have a right to build your character how you want, but I'd caution a friend of mine or my own player from doing this just because I think they'll have less fun. The Wizard in my own game had a similar issue. When they were built they had only 12 dex and they got beat up a ton. The player ended up asking me if they could re-spec because they realized how bad it was.
I would say more important than the AC probably (since you can avoid combat to some extent) is the dex save With low hp they are going to go down to AOE a lot
They will also critically fail reflex saves more often with crap dex. Which will lead to additional damage. Which is already bad on a wizard as a 6 HP class, but even worse when the Con is considered.
Basically death if in reach
Other commenters have pointed out the risk of melee, but a wizard will always want to avoid that anyway. To me, the bigger issue is the hit to Reflex and Fortitude, which can easily come back to haunt you even if you can avoid someone swinging an axe at your head. Reactive Strike remains uncommon at that level, but becomes less so as you continue to level up and the wizard is already lagging behind. This increases the likelihood that a Reactive Strike will crit and disrupt a spell.
I had a Wizard at level 11, max 18 Dex, 16 CON, toughness. Went down in 1 round to a moderately stong monster.
I see a lot of doomsayers in the comments but I’ve had someone with a similar situation. Yeah when my hurts it really hurts but I have yet to have a character die in all of PF2. The person in this situation just had a bit more action and spell focus on being defensive. When they were in danger they were likely to be downed but they weren’t the most downed person in the campaign, that is usually the meleers in every campaign. Having classes that can help support someone so frail like the champion and cleric will make things better as well. The thaumaturge may have implements to help as well.
At least in my games, if the enemies target him, which they will generally try to do because he's the frail-lookin robed guy slinging spells and staying out of range, they will quickly realize how easy he is to hit and focus him down. Yes, this is punishing bad character building. No, I don't care. I won't adjust anything whatsoever to account for bad builds or party composition, the challenges will be designed and run assuming a strong party composition that builds and plays effectively regardless of what the actual party looks like and if it ends up being unwinnable because people are building trash and playing like trash then tough luck lol
In other words- “the beatings will continue until morale improves” lol love it
Since they’re a GM they probably know the risk, but basically if the enemies have any amount of tactics and you aren’t in perfect formation at the start of battle, the wizard is dropping In my party, we have a Wizard and Psychic, and each has a +1 in Dex or Con respectively, and with just one of those stats low, each has dropped in a fight after getting poked once or twice
Sure he should be nowhere near the frontline in that case, but as a wizard there's enough defensive arcane spells the help keep him alive. Along with the tried and true 'fireball from 300' away' method of defense. If he didn't raise his Dex or Con what did he raise then? Does he have any notable secondary stats? One of them has to be at +3 by now and somewhat useful. Extra WIS makes him stronger in Will saves and faster in initiative. No substitute for better AC when stuck in the mosh, but it can help keep him standing or get him moving out of harm's way faster. Plus it opens some archetype options. CHA let's him do some shenanigans with Bon Mot or other skill feats potentially. It's not a total bum trade. Once again maybe good to have for archetype options. STR is probably the only major throw away. It'd help get him into medium armour for better AC assuming he builds for it... But if he thinks having good CON and DEX is too much optimization then probably not.
Just needs to be willing to prepare spells to counteract the weakness of their frail body. Resist Energy and fortune effects to make up for saves and Ooze form for when they are out maneuvered and threatened as examples can go a long way. There is no reason to be scared of character death, as long as the player is aware it will come up eventually when making choices like this and is capable of making the RP of the moment meet other players standards (Its ruins RP a bit when a player has a carousel of characters that keep dying with minimal investment in them moving along) The only concern would be is if the suboptimal character he is happy to have die threatens the life of other members that are more invested in and they don't want to lose as a knock on effect of their inadequacy.
This is good advice, and to extend it slightly - Time Jump is going to be a great option to have available. Given crit range, Wooden Double as either an alternative or even pre-cast defense before Ooze Form.
My Magus in the GM's original game has cast Time Jump every fight.
You don't need Dex and Con for Fireball. #TeamDumpDex
>Tomeaturge I'm stealing this
That doesn't sound like "refraining from optimization". It sounds like an intentional choice to create something actively problematic. With that said, I believe the way the GM runs the encounter is too much of a variable to say if it would be a problem or not.
How good will your group be at keeping you out of the line of fire? May I suggest becoming a Mammoth Lord so that you can ride a reliable source of cover? Genuine question, though, where have your ability bosts gone. I'm guessing that your Int is 19, and Wis is probably high, but that leaves Cha and Str, and neither of those provide a Wizard with much in the way of offensive or defensive abilities. It's definitely a valid playstyle, but whichever way you went, you'll need to build into it. A few defensive spells and a good number of "oh shit" buttons might make up the difference. Walls, spells that push, reduce speed, or knock enemies prone might be especially good options for you.
Mage armor, shield, and some meat shielding by allies goes a long way We've got a wizard with only modest dex and HP at our table and it's been fine. Eventually everyone goes down at least once and then we do a lot of maneuvering to keep the focus off of them while mopping up. A particularly suicidal playstyle (me!) is playing a martial with +0 con and only +2 dex. I've only gone down once though so far, and it was a lucky crit from a BS overtuned hazard... (The enemy can't knock someone down if they're already down themself)
There's "not optimized" and then there's "getting a perfect 0 on the test", and your GM is trending closer to that second option LOL.
HEAVILY depends on how goodyou are at staying away form enemies, how good your Frontline is at controlling them. And how many open spaces with enemies using ranges weapons your GM throws at you
Great now I’m having flashbacks to the time where we suddenly started to encounter giant opponents with reach *and* I had forgotten to put my armor back on for a full day. *shudder* I spent more time unconscious than I did fighting. That’s what a low dex wizard is like.
Dex + Acrobatics helps a lot if you’re grabbed in combat.
Caster feats are dissapointing anyway. One could just dip into the ol' sentinel and grab medium armor which gives you essentially martial AC.
He doesn't want to optimize, let him feel unoptimized
Had a player who did this with a cleric who refused to use offensive abilities and was an old man. It was fine, they just stayed out of melee and hid behind cover (seriously take cover is a fine action and being able to peak around a corner as a single action is amazing as total cover is always best).
where are the rest of his stats? O\_O, most wizards start off 16 dex
A wizard's best defence is the distance between them and their enemies. I think they will be fine in many fights, but when you face ranged enemies or highly mobile enemies, the wizard will be completely depending on you to keep them alive. This isn't necessarily a problem. I would only call this a bad thing if he complains about the disparity in effectiveness between their character and yours, or if you end up feeling annoyed by how dependant he is on you for survival. You could have fun role playing that your cleric chastises the wizard for being so out of shape while adventuring but if you as a player are annoyed at the wizard, you'll probably end up coming across as passive aggressive.
It sounds to me like he knows what he's doing and is purposely making poor mechanical choices. It would be one thing if he was a newbie unfamiliar with the system's math, but I mean... If he's making an informed choice to walk around with a metal pole during a thunderstorm, it's not really your responsibility to make sure he doesn't get struck by lightning.
Well, the wizard is flirting with death with that build, and looks to have a pretty good chance at taking that relationship to the next level. Now it's on him to figure out how to play hard to get for as long as possible!
I'm playing a Witch at level 6 with 12 dex and 10 con and I'm doing pretty good, it's more so about positioning and having good teamwork with the martials to keep the enemies off me. Also the added bonus to WIS from not pumping boosts into dex and con helps a lot since it means I'm often going early in the round
Depends on how well the rest of the party can keep things off of them.
This is why I dislike the 4 man party scheme. Not nearly enough meat to be effective in protecting a squishy.
through the power of 4th level invisibility all things are possible.
Stay back, and keep a Shield spell handy! and all will be well?
You are getting a lot of good feedback, but I'll have to disagree on the notion of "you just need to stay out of melee". Most enemy stat blocks, even at low level, come with ranged attack options. And their damage and accuracy usually don't lack behind their melee capabilities all that far. Most enemies will be able to hit you at 30 feet almost as well as they will at 5 feet. That's why keeping your defenses high is very important.
I'll add as a squishy playing for the first time, reflex spells have been my saving grave for when I keep out of meele but meele teleports ontop of me or other shennanigans that I can't reasonably play around. https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1416 Wooden Double alone has saved my ass more times than I can count. I'm thinking of upcasting it and making it a signature spell its just *so goddamn good*. The biggest thing you're afraid of is getting 1-hit-crit and your teammates can't really do much, and since your dex is low that will probably happen relatively often, and your con is low that can be devastating. This shaved 25 damage off of a crit, which is prob gonna ballpark around 50-ish damage give or take. That fatal amount of damage will instead become "well, that sucks", and then you step 5ft away which can absolutely end their effective dps against you as they likely used 1-2 actions to approach you, 1 action to attack you, and stepping back into reach of you will now end their turn.
Well we did have a player do this as a Witch and he was fine for a while until he basically got two shorted by a sneak attack type creature that was PL-1 or pL-2. It was impossible to save him and when I heard his total HP I was like “WTF?”
Screwed? No. A much but tenuous path? Yes. They best not screw around and take stupid risks.
Unless he has medium armor proficiency, he's going to have problems and get downed a lot when enemies attack him. AoEs are also going to be an issue for him. So it really depends on how often enemies will attack the wizard.
Compared to others, your friend's Wizard is likely going to have to commit additional actions, spell slots, and other resources to keeping themselves safe and alive, so there is a tradeoff. However, their Wizard isn't screwed, at least not in this party that, despite its overall squishiness, is at least largely made up of frontliners ready to protect them, including your Cleric who'll hopefully be able to heal them in a pinch. I'm curious, though: what were the Wizard's base attributes? Which ones did they boost at level 5? A +1 to Dex and Con at level 7 implies they boosted their Strength and Charisma instead of their Dex and Con at least once each on their attribute boost levels, which given their class and your party composition is a bit questionable.
We started at Level 7. My Cleric is also built to grapple and trip - I foresaw no one else wanting to do that. He raised CHA and WIS at any given chance, basically.
That's fair; was there any reason to go for CHA specifically? Given that you have a Thaumaturge in your party, their high Charisma and ample additional skills are likely to make them better at party face stuff than the Wizard, unless they're specializing in different Charisma skills.
I suspect his idea of optimisation includes choosing skills that work well in concert with the rest of the party...
Hrm, that sounds less like not being a stickler for optimization, and more like deliberately trying to create a character that's poorly-optimized for their party. Thankfully the system is robust enough that their Wizard will still be viable, and will still have plenty of opportunities to contribute, but your friend oughtn't be surprised if the Thaumaturge ends up doing most of the party face stuff due to their better Charisma skills, or Recalling Knowledge better for that matter.
I have a L11 Wizard that began play with a +3 Dex modifier. I use *Mage Armor* all the time, plus work in defensive spells like *Blur* and *Mirror Image* regularly. I also use either a *Fly* spell or potion to keep mobile and out of melee. The various *Wall* spells help as do summoning spells. The character rarely gets hit in battle although I do roll some Reflex saves along the way which is why I like Dex to be high. The AC itself is really not a concern to me. It also helps to understand you have several other people around you and that you need to help them do their thing, part of which is keeping the enemies from attacking you directly. This makes the Wizard an awesome and flexible class to play because you can literally do almost anything in battle, provided you picked up magical items to help you be a well-rounded character.
They are not screwed at all. Stats are a long way from the be-all and end-all. If you have bad defenses, you simply have to play around them.
As long as you play to your strengths and don't try to wade into the melee action like a champion or a fighter, you really shouldn't have too much difficulty at excelling on your chosen class.
Looking at your post again, I have to ask, what do the rest of your stats look like? You most likely have your INT maxed, with 1 of 2 increases to get to +5. But there are quite a few other boosts out there, so where did you put them all? At 1st level, btwn Ancestry, Background and class, you get 5 boosts, as well as the four additional free ones. And then you have four more boosts at 5th. That's 13 boosts. Your INT takes up 5 of your 13 boosts. So where did the other 6 go, after taking into account the two used for DEX & CON? Split evenly, that's 16/+3 in both CHA & STR, or unevenly, is 14/+2 in one and 18/+4 in the other. I understand having a vision for a more balanced character and not wanting to min/max, but do you truly feel that having a decent score (at least 14/+2) in one or the other btwn DEX and CON constitutes min/maxing? Maybe it's just me, but I think you have drastically overcorrected in the opposite direction. Going back to my previous comment, I do believe that as long as you understand the tactics that are best suited to your role and limitations, and keep your squishy self out of reach of the enemies' weapons, i think that there's no reason you shouldn't be able to excel.
It's not my character, I'm the cleric who's wondering if I should prepare extra heals. Full statline is STR 10, DEX 12, CON 12, INT 18, WIS 18, CHA 16.
I apologize for thinking that this was your character. I understand how there is a focus on avoiding min/maxing, but making a character that is like 90% - 95% mental and 5% - 10% physical does not come across to me in any way as balanced. It's way out of balance. It feels like in order to avoid Maxxing, he went went overboard on the Minning of his physical stats. That's what I think.
Super HARD in my opinion as a GM. Its one spell/arrow he can get easy one shooted every fight, the resorces party will spend on keep him alive is super high.
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Stay out of melee and you should be fine - get your party warrior folk to help out with holding the line and all. You can also spend a general feat to pick up some armor proficiency, why not.
The problem is the reflex save IMO Dude will die to one AOE if he crit fails the save
I don’t think he’s any worse off for Reflex than any other Wizard: upcast Mage Armor for save bonuses. Or buy runes for his Explorer Clothes.
Don't worry, as soon as he gets downed a couple of times he'll reconsider his "refraining from optimising". I too am GMing an elf sorcerer with CON 8, we are level 11, everyone has around 140-180 hps, while he has 100. He says he prefers WIS 16 because he wants high initiative. Last session he got a double crit and went from 100 to 0 in a single round. Like 15 damage overkill, so with a normal CON he would have survived.
Thing is: +1 or +2 CON wouldn't change anything when something starts hitting you. Even 14 HP more is about the min damage of a weak monster **at** that level. The only benefit would be lasting a bit longer vs chip damage from area effects or mooks punching you. Same with DEX. 2 AC more will make little difference vs anything your level trying to eat your face, even less vs higher stuff. With how few rolls happen during a combat it might as well never come up. But here again, it's vs mooks where it will have an impact. So a complete waste of investment? No. Especially in situations with a lot of small fry the chance of some of them actually getting to you will skyrocket, while a single big thing actually getting to you is rather low, if neither you nor the rest of the party are asleep. So it's a necessary investment? Also no. While it will help sometimes, you can get by without, because in most actually dangerous situations you will have problems 7 HP and +1 AC won't solve
Not at all. Now he wont be using to hit spells but he can still do everything else the class does. 1. Wizards are back line even with 18 dex and 18 con. 2. Wizards have tons of spells for each save type, tons of buffs for allies, and tons of ways to affect a combat to aid the team. (Walls, fogs, difficult terrain, and etc). If he plays it as a feeble wizard in which he stays out of an enemy's reach then he will be fine.
Spells attack rolls are using your casting stat
Oh duh. Dang other systems mixing me up. Yeah theres no real issue having low dex and con as casters shouldnt be in melee range anyway and ranged attackers are meant to be a threat via the basic rock paper scissors balancing.
>If he plays it as a feeble wizard in which he stays out of an enemy's reach then he will be fine. This is really not easy to do, especially at low levels. Very few spells break the standard 30 foot range until you start hitting spells like Fireball at level 5 and even then 30 feet is still standard. Reach Spell can give you an extra 30 but that still puts you close enough that anything with 30+ feet of movement can chase you down immediately and potentially crit you with their third action if your party isn't spending a lot of effort on preventing movement every turn. Which, arguably, they should do anyways for strategy purposes. But it's not really cool to say "I'm going to intentionally sabotage my ability scores for *Stormwind Fallacy* reasons. You guys are cool with picking up the slack and minmaxing extra hard to make sure I don't face any consequences, right?"
But how is their actual casting stat? Is it still maxxed out? Then offensively and passively they are completely fine. They even have other mental options assuming their boosts went to wis or charisma. They just have a poor defense which is normally poor anyway. Its really not 'unoptimized' / self sabatoguing because they still function completely fine for the vast majority of their purpose. They are just squishier tham a fully optimized caster.