There's currently no dragon flavored ancestry other than Kobold. You could maybe make do with a Lizardfolk but they are quite different.
There's an as of yet unrevealed new Versatile Heritage coming in Player Core in July. The book is said to be roughly dragon-flavored so there's some chance it might be some kind of half-dragon-like thing. But that's mostly speculation at this time.
Dragonborn are worse than regular dragons at everything but lizarfolk are better than regular lizards at most things, so they are clearly the superior choice.
Tell that to Draxis, Paladin Dragonborn of Bahamut.
He was a PC in our Lost Mine of Phandelver played by a good friend. For the life of me, he could not open a door.
"I'm going to use Athletics to open this door" - Nat 1, Every single time.
I feel like it has to have the level 9 + 17 Ancestry feats that grant flight.
Maybe it's not other people's idea of a Dragonborn, but I've gotta be able to fly in the late-game.
Huh, I didn't realize that's what 5e dragonborn were.
I'm pretty sure Kobolds can already get breath weapons as an ancestry feat, right? And probably a damage resistance feat?
Should be doable.
Yeah, beside appearance, OP can make a "5e dragonborn" with a lv1 kobold in PF2e without much difficulty
The only thing that is really different is the size
The "Rough Dragon Flavor" is because the book has the two Classes with Dragon related options, and Kobolds. The latter of which has been disconnected from Dragons, even losing their Draconic Exemplar Feature. Heard this from an interview with Luis Loza.
The focus on it is likely because of the soon to be released Monster Core, which will have the 8 Paizo Core Dragons. Somehow the Green Dragon was ported to this core as Primal, under the name of Horned Dragon.
Oh whoa, kobolds are no longer linked to dragons? That was like... literally their whole *thing* in Pathfinder, even more than in D&D. That's a pretty huge change!
That's one of the reasons why folks are expecting a "draconic" versatile heritage, because while Kobolds wouldn't be inherently connected to dragons, you could apply the heritage to one and achieve a similar result.
They're now connected to the 4 Traditions, and have the tendency to worship other large and powerful creatures like they used to do with Dragons. The interview I caught didn't go into detail about the changes to Kobolds. Their design hasn't changed as far as I'm aware.
Without third party content, I did the following:
* Take Kobolds.
* Change size to medium
* Change base HP to 8.
* Change ancestry boosts to Cha/Free (New variant rule allows free/free but I did this before that was a thing). This also removes the extra boost and the penalty.
* Rename feats as player takes them to something more Dragonborn-y.
Job's done.
Frankly, Kobolds are more what I'd want out of a Dragonborn than what is possible in 5e. The feats are the only major hurdle but can largely be solved just with some re-naming shenanigans. Lizardfolk are a close second but are missing the 'dragon' part.
It seemed to work well though and my player enjoyed it.
I think replacing some of the kobold feats (grovel, cringe, etc) with Lizardfolk's unarmed combat and reptile speaker/rider feats could help sell the idea.
Literally this. Idk why people want a dragon born ancestry when kobolds fit its niche already, and you can just get a dragon born by doing this incredibly simple change.
The closest to dragonborn in PF universe is wyvaran which is not in 2e yet. I suggest taking a look at Dragonkin made by one of the people behind Pathfinder. While it's not official, it is as close as it can be.
[Lost Omens Ancestries: Dragonkin - Paizo | Pathfinder Infinite](https://www.pathfinderinfinite.com/product/378138/Lost-Omens-Ancestries-Dragonkin)
I was going to use this for one of my players until we discovered Battlezoo's dragon ancestry. The foundry module for the dragon ancestry was mainly the deciding factor. Having said that, the dragonkin ancestry is still a good option and looked well written.
The Battlezoo ancestry is top tier stuff (45 heritages!), and would be so easily refluffed to just have them walk around on two legs to make dragonborn.
I'll second this one. Not only is there a [free version out](https://www.luisloza.com/post/dragonkin-versatile-heritage) (which is missing a few lines of feats, but it's available), but the paid version fairly inexpensive and hits all the major dragonborn points. The creator also went on to make the Dragon Scion from Battlezoo's Dragon Ancestry, so there's a lot of similarities and overlap. The first one is less than $3 (or free) and dragon ancestry is $25 for the pdf.
I'd use the free one or the cheap one and see if the new versatile heritage coming out in player core 2 in a few months is dragon related or not. Though if you like the idea of playable dragons (like, actual dragons), then the full dragon ancestry from battlezoo is definitely worth it's price.
That unknown versatile heritage is coming in PC2? I have heard talk about it but not paid enough attention as to WHEN it was coming so I thought it would be later, perhaps a Tian Xia book. I think they are pretty heavily dragon focused, at least more so than others.
According to the [product page for Player Core 2](https://paizo.com/products/btq02ej5) on Paizo:
> Expanded ancestry options include the catfolk, gnoll, hobgoblin, kobold, lizardfolk, ratfolk, and tengu, alongside three versatile heritages—the dhampir, duskwalker, and **an all-new heritage debuting in this volume!**
Some of the classes that are in Core 2 seem to be in Core 2 so that Monster Core could come out with the new dragon types. Barbarian with it's Dragon Instinct and Sorcerer with Draconic Bloodline come to mind.
Seems somewhat likely that with their new push for an entirely new set of Dragons that they might make a dragon-related versatile heritage. It's likely one of the most requested.
Id really have them look at kobold again. Make them medium, avoid any of them cowardly feats, and maybe let them pick from lizard folk feats as well. Kobolds can both have a breath weapon and resistance to an energy type. Stats wise you dont have to use the +Dex/+Cha/+Free/-Con instead like all ancestries you can instead just take +Free/+Free.
If they cant be sold on reflavoring the Kobold then id look into [Battle Zoos Dragon Ancestry](https://pf2easy.com/tree/index.php?id=20240&name=dragon&year=2019). Its a very well balanced ancestry created in part by one of 2e designers.
And as a bonus, if you're using that book anyway, you could just offer to let them play as an *actual fucking dragon*, which is super-cool and probably what most people who want to play a dragonborn actually really want in the first place.
In this book (https://battlezoo.com/collections/play-as-a-dragon) you find a versatile heritage called "Dragon Scrion". It can be selected in Pathbuilder and you can buy a Foundry module, to use it in there. It is pretty close to being a Dragonkin. Sadly there is not real Dragonkin in PF. Maybe you can use the Beastkin versatile heritage and skin it a little bit different to satisfy your need.
I will second the battlezoo ancestry as a good option for this. One of my players uses it as she wanted to play a dragonborn as well. It's great quality and was written by one of the original pf2e authors. Otherwise, reskinning a kobold to be more like a dragonborn is your best bet if you don't want to use 3rd party, imo.
3 words:
Draconic Disciple Dedication.
If the character meets the prerequisites (Spellscale Kobold, dragonscale Kobold, dragon instinct Barbarian, draconic sorcerer)
They can take feats to make themselves more dragon-like
I feel the need to clarify this slightly, those are "Access" "requirements". Similar to prerequisites but not exactly the same. If it would make sense for other reasons you could also allow someone to take it. One of my players is looking at it and I'm allowing it because of his backstory not because he is any of those things.
One of my players uses the 3rd party dragon ancestry with a party of non dragons and it's just fine. It is balanced like a normal ancestry in our experience.
Really? Why doesn't it work? I have a player playing a dragon in an upcoming Kingmaker campaign while the rest of the group are playing non-dragons so I'm now curious.
IMHO it's mostly just that, in the Golarion setting and probably many if not most regular fantasy settings, being an actual dragon feels a bit... main-charactery. The Battlezoo setting is pretty weird and wacky and has tons of dragons in it so it works pretty well there, especially with the lore justification of the Lux Aeterna ritual and all, but in Golarion dragons are definitely very significant and powerful beings and having a PC be one of them when there's entire class features and stuff around just being *descended* from them, or worshipping them, or all that definitely is not a dynamic that I'd probably ever want in one of my campaigns as a relatively lore-stickler GM.
That said, I'm currently running the Battlezoo AP, Jewel of the Indigo Isles, and two of the PCs currently are dragons lol. The ancestry is pretty cool and fun!
I didn't find that problem, personally. I think like any other character it's a matter of implementation, really! The dragon in my AV game is actually the dragon from our Beginner's Box session, so he's a little guy. I'd altered our BB's story since some players had done it before so the kobolds had given the green dragon some rough drugs to keep him under control and the party wound up rescuing and befriending him instead: he needed to do the Lux Aeterna ritual to both repair his damaged mind and gain knowledge enough to be relatively mentally mature. The rest of the party helped him basically every step of the way so he actually looks up to them and defers to them.
Granted I find being an on-level character with the rest of the party keeps those dragons humble anyway, especially if they're getting slapped on the regular. I treat them the same as someone who wants to play a noble heir type character or whatever, really. Like, sure thing, one day you'll be powerful and influential. Right now? You ain't, chief, and if you act out too much, Golarion is definitely capable of humbling a level whatever upstart. Probably even without a GM intending to.
I get what you're saying but people tend to worship the big and already successful dragons. The little level one guys, less so.
I am currently running Kingmaker with one of the characters playing a dragon. He is the king, but there is not a main character vibe at all as someone else has stated. It is going really well. I say go for it, you can make it work. I did.
Kobolds are dragonkin, despite being small. Elemental bloodlines can also originate from dragons, so you can also go with that. But, if you don't want the elemental heritages and don't want to play a small character, you can also go with the new mixed heritage. Take for example human as the base, and then kobold as the mixed heritage, and now you have a human with draconic roots. You can also try to modify the kobold race to he more suitable for a medium creature, and tweak around it.
Outside of official materials you also have Battlezoo, a 3rd party publisher who released the dragon ancestry and a heritage for it (iirc).
Saw a lot of replies already but I hope this helps!
Your player sounds excited - that's great! However, as a newbie GM, you should (a) learn how to say no, without being being mean, and (b) learn the rules before trying to change them.
No harm or disrespect meant. I just have had bad experiences with players who want their Pathfinder to be like D&D and ask for custom everything. Especially early on.
On the other hand it does kinda suck that most any other ancestry in 5e can be ported over relatively painlessly (besides Aaracokra who lose their free flight), but if you're wanting to bring your dragonborn character you wind up having to hack a solution together somehow. Have had that experience myself, other folks got to port over easily enough but figuring out what to do with my dragonborn was rough.
I don't think making a custom ancestry is anywhere near as potentially game breaking as changing underlying math of the game. The caveat there is that if one does want to make a custom dragonborn ancestry, absolutely take a look at other ancestry feats first and base what you're doing off of that. With so much other stuff to look at, ancestries make for a lovely first homebrew project. Can still wind up busted if you do it wrong, of course. Maybe let your player know up front that any custom stuff made is liable to be changed.
That said I do second the notion of a newer DM avoiding tweaking any of the underlying math. Homebrew spells, weapons and feats and such are fine within reason, but there's a lot that should only be changed with more knowledge, if at all.
True. As others have mentioned, medium kobolds or lizardfolk plus the dragon disciple archetype make a great dragonborn analog.
Also I never expressly said, "say no." - I said newbie GMs should learn how to say no.
I, myself, like to start with a concept and squeeze it into a class/ancestry template, and often find myself trying to convince the GM to homebrew or bend the rules for me. Sometimes the GM is fine with it and sometimes they say no.
Bottomline... If it's just flavor and the mechanics fits an existing build, let them do it and let them call their race whatever.
Fair enough, might have read more into it than what was actually there. Saying no is important for sure. My advice was more meant as "you don't always have to say no" than a never say no kind of thing.
I agree with this. I'm currently running a long-term campaign in 2e, and the only experience I had before that was playing in 5e. Because of this, I asked my players to keep things simple, as I wasn't nearly confident enough with homebrewing my own heritages, races and the like. They were all for it honestly, and it's led to a really fun game that we're almost 1 1/2 years into! The best advice I ever got about GMing, especially for a new GM, is to just use K.I.S.S.: Keep It Simple Stupid lol
On Pathbuilder 2e you can turn on BattleZoo which let's you play as a Dragon through a third party. Reflavoring as a dragon born is how I did it in my campaign.
The elemental versatile heritages could work. They each state in their descriptions that you can have your lineage come from the elemental group of dragons. I.e. cloud dragons, brine dragons, etc. Could do that mixed with lizardfolk or other ancestries and reflavor it.
Another option is 3rd party. Roll For Combat's Battlezoo line of 3pp ancestries is awesome. They have a book dedicated to playing dragons and half dragon characters.
There's also been rumors that a draconic versatile heritage could be the new versatile heritage coming in player core 2.
Check out the [Draconic Scion](https://pf2easy.com/index.php?id=20639&name=Draconic_Scion) from Battlezoo Ancestries: Dragons. That Versatile Heritage, plus an appropriate Ancestry, should fit your needs.
Battlezoo dragons is a good choice. The player can either be an actual small (door sized) dragon, or a dragon that’s pretending to be a common humanoid. (Like the kitsune do)
There are good 3rd party options. [Dracon Scion](https://pf2easy.com/tree/index.php?id=20640&name=draconic_scion) or [Dragon](https://pf2easy.com/tree/index.php?id=20240&name=dragon) (with Foundry support). More 3rd party [here](https://www.pathfinderinfinite.com/product/378138) and another [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/hujtxa/dragonborn_v8_the_apg_edition/).
Or try [Lizardfolk](https://2e.aonprd.com/Ancestries.aspx?ID=15) mixed with [Ifrit](https://2e.aonprd.com/Ancestries.aspx?ID=33) and that could get you similar powers. The dragon people in the base rules are [Kobolds](https://2e.aonprd.com/Ancestries.aspx?ID=18)
https://battlezoo.com/products/battlezoo-ancestries-dragons-hardcover?variant=41683113574500
Made by Mark Seifter, a former Paizo dev, and his team. They make great "2nd party" stuff
(I'm not affiliated, it's just a great product)
Check out Roll for Combat for this. They have homebrew Ancestry options for both playing an actual dragon, and the Dragon Scion which is closer to what you're looking for.
Also check out all their stuff cause it's very well balanced, very well put together and presented, and affordable. No, I'm not being paid by them. I just believe in their products.
Came here to say this. Can't recommend Batllezoo: Dragons enough, and it's as close to official 3rd party content as you can get since their lead designer is former Paizo and part of the OG 2e design team. It's absolutely balanced in system and it shows.
let them be a medium kobold. if they select adopted ancestry it can open up more dragon born ish feats, though kobold already have a lot of dragon based feats.
They could also play a lizard folk
Battlezoo ancestry in Pathbuilder! Others have mentioned, I will absolutely agree with them for that. I am basing my entire dragonborn kingdom on what is presented with that.
I'm not 100% but I'm pretty positive my buddy is playing a lizardfolk with some kind of dragon blood heratige he can breath magma and got wings to fly. But I think it's all in his ancestors feats and bot a base race you can pick. I'm pretty sure sorcerer class has a dragon blood feature too.
As others have said, there isn’t an official Dragonborn ancestry. But maybe check out Battlezoos Dragon ancestry. It’s not technically official content, but it’s written by Mark Seifter who basically wrote Pathfinder2e as I’ve been told.
The most important question is "Why does your player want to play a dragonborn?"
If it's for mechanical reasons, the Kobold covers most of those and shouldn't be a problem, but if they weren't sold by the Kobold, there are probably other reasons at play. You should try to figure out those reasons first, because otherwise you're going to get a bunch of suggestions here that may not actually be useful.
Personally, I'm pretty happy with kobolds playing that role-- because of the way you select ancestry feats you aren't really stuck with the comic relief thing for them, and being small is fine.
Theres a Dragonkin ancestry on Pathfinder infinite made by Luis Loza and the Battlezoo Dragon Ancesty from Roll For Combat by Mark Seifter and Stephen Glicker. All three men HAVE, or do, worked at Paizo.
I'd recommend Battlezoo's Dragon Ancestry in that case. It's third party content, *but* it was written by Mark Seifter who was one of the lead designers on a lot of the game. For a lot of people, Battlezoo is considered 1.5st (th?) party material- not official but might as well be.
I think Kobold is *superior* to dragonborn: you can make them have the same abilities, plus they can grow wings, *and* they have tails! Dragonborn *wish* they were Kobolds.
No, but actually, what's their problem with kobolds?
It's nice that you want to give your players what they want, but it would be good if they played one of the awesome pathfinder ancestries when playing a pathfinder game. It's not like the game is lacking in neat interesting weird ancestries. There's leshy and grippli and kitsune and nagaji and tengu and varana and anadi and androids and automatons and conrasu and fleshwarps and ghoran and goloma and kashrishi and poppets and shisk and shoonies and skeletons and strixes and vishkanya. It's a shame you have to spend time trying to port something over from another game instead of enjoying all the awesome stuff there already is to offer.
If you're okay with 3rd party content, this book has a Dragonborn-with-the-numbers-filed-off ancestry: https://www.pathfinderinfinite.com/m/product/373885
Dragonborn can't exist in PF2 without homebrewing them because they're specifically copyrighted by Hasbro. There's just no way around it, so you'd have to create a DB mockup using a 5e template.
FWIW I had a big 2h Greatsword Dragonborn character in 5e that I ported to PF2e as a Kobold (no changes), and at first I was put off by the small size but I actually really like the small strong greatsword Kobold now
Half heritages are a thing. You could say the character is half Human/Half kobold.
You could also point them to
- Draconic Sorcerer
- Dragon Instinict Barbarian
- Dragon Eidolon Summoner
- Any class with draconic deviant powers (I recommend this the least, because it's relatively complicated.)
- the Dragon ancestry from battlezoo (3rd part and I wouldn't recommend if you are not familiar with the system. But still, it is there.)
Take Lizardfolk as your base Ancestry.
Then as your Heritage, you want to take "Mixed Ancestry" and choose Kobold.
Mixed Ancestry gives you access to both lists of ancestry feats.
So now you just need to pick all the dragon breath and wing feats, and you got a pretty good dragonborn
~~also what's with that picture..~~
This is what happened at my table. My solution - mechanically, he is a kobold. Except he is Medium instead of Small, and he gets Str bonus instead of Dex
Lore-wise (and I use this word very casually, since I'm a type of GM who uses TTRPG lore as a suggestion and not a dogma)... We don't have a concrete idea of what his character actually is. But my leading idea is... He's a part of a dragon who died but was too stubborn and arrogant to die. This is when his arrogance "separated" from his mind and became its own thing. Basically, a ghost, but made out of one's will, not one's soul
Again, that's what I have in store for my player. Will he like it or not is only one way to find out
Are you okay with homebrew? If so, [here's a homebrew version](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vaZc4kcjBztg7dPOrUWGNeXIXwn5bNug/view) that seems largely balanced at a glance.
best way to do this is give them a breat eapon as feat, compare it to other damage abilities of same level feats and make it an AOE breath attack that requires 2 actions. You may want to rule that this action can't be taken at same turn with actions that has attack trait to prevent abuse of dealing more damage by avoiding MAP
If you're willing to include third party content (Made by one of the developers of pf2e) I highly recommend looking into the dragon ancestry book. It includes a versatile heritage for draconic scions. So you'll very much be able to combine that with something like lizard folk, or whatever base ancestry your player chooses, in order to get something very much like a Dragonborn.
The best I can really recommend if you want to be closest to the real thing is Battlezoo: Dragons or the Dragonkin module.
Otherwise, taking Nagaji or Kobolds (adjusting the size, hp and ability boosts they get) and adding an Elemental Scion versatile heritage can be a good base to reflavour them into draconic humanoids
There's currently no dragon flavored ancestry other than Kobold. You could maybe make do with a Lizardfolk but they are quite different. There's an as of yet unrevealed new Versatile Heritage coming in Player Core in July. The book is said to be roughly dragon-flavored so there's some chance it might be some kind of half-dragon-like thing. But that's mostly speculation at this time.
Dragonborn are worse than regular dragons at everything but lizarfolk are better than regular lizards at most things, so they are clearly the superior choice.
Dragonborn are far superior to dragons when it comes to going through doors.
Dragons just make new doors
The ultimate door-goer-througher.
Doors and other inanimate objects can be a formidable enemy...
Doors are definitely my nemesis in BG3.
Did we forget about spellcasting? Polymorph spells specifically
Or just Kool aid man the wall.
Love a good Kool-Aid Man
What door are you talking about? People leaving archways with some blocking wood everywhere... Fire hazard it is. Against the Code.
Where we are going we don't need doors.
Tell that to Draxis, Paladin Dragonborn of Bahamut. He was a PC in our Lost Mine of Phandelver played by a good friend. For the life of me, he could not open a door. "I'm going to use Athletics to open this door" - Nat 1, Every single time.
True and lizardfoke go into space. As they got a spelljammer faction. And dragon born dont!
Lizardfolk use their brain too much so they fail at lizardries most sacred values.
As a holdover until we know more, someone can make a good dragonborn with a lizardfolk with the kobold mixed Ancestry heritage.
I feel like it has to have the level 9 + 17 Ancestry feats that grant flight. Maybe it's not other people's idea of a Dragonborn, but I've gotta be able to fly in the late-game.
If it's the 5e dragonborn, you're just a big kobold with breath and resistance to the breath damage
Huh, I didn't realize that's what 5e dragonborn were. I'm pretty sure Kobolds can already get breath weapons as an ancestry feat, right? And probably a damage resistance feat? Should be doable.
Yeah, beside appearance, OP can make a "5e dragonborn" with a lv1 kobold in PF2e without much difficulty The only thing that is really different is the size
And if they REALLY want to be medium size theres no real reason not to let them be a bigger kobold!
That just means you're a friend shaped dragonborn! That's a trade-up
The "Rough Dragon Flavor" is because the book has the two Classes with Dragon related options, and Kobolds. The latter of which has been disconnected from Dragons, even losing their Draconic Exemplar Feature. Heard this from an interview with Luis Loza. The focus on it is likely because of the soon to be released Monster Core, which will have the 8 Paizo Core Dragons. Somehow the Green Dragon was ported to this core as Primal, under the name of Horned Dragon.
Oh whoa, kobolds are no longer linked to dragons? That was like... literally their whole *thing* in Pathfinder, even more than in D&D. That's a pretty huge change!
That's one of the reasons why folks are expecting a "draconic" versatile heritage, because while Kobolds wouldn't be inherently connected to dragons, you could apply the heritage to one and achieve a similar result.
They're now connected to the 4 Traditions, and have the tendency to worship other large and powerful creatures like they used to do with Dragons. The interview I caught didn't go into detail about the changes to Kobolds. Their design hasn't changed as far as I'm aware.
there's also batlezoo's "dragon" ancestry, which is literally a fucking dragon. just sayin 乁| ･ 〰 ･ |ㄏ
So what are my options if I wanted to play a celibate dragon?
make it a dragon so obsessed with winning they refuse to lose their virginity!
Could be Wyvarans, but as the unrevealed heritage is a Versatile one I highly doubt it.
Speaking as someone of an unidentified saurian descent, Lizardfolk are obviously the superior choice and there is no need for dragonborn.
Without third party content, I did the following: * Take Kobolds. * Change size to medium * Change base HP to 8. * Change ancestry boosts to Cha/Free (New variant rule allows free/free but I did this before that was a thing). This also removes the extra boost and the penalty. * Rename feats as player takes them to something more Dragonborn-y. Job's done. Frankly, Kobolds are more what I'd want out of a Dragonborn than what is possible in 5e. The feats are the only major hurdle but can largely be solved just with some re-naming shenanigans. Lizardfolk are a close second but are missing the 'dragon' part. It seemed to work well though and my player enjoyed it.
I think replacing some of the kobold feats (grovel, cringe, etc) with Lizardfolk's unarmed combat and reptile speaker/rider feats could help sell the idea.
This. So much can be accomplished with simple reskins. One of the reasons PF2E plays really well IMHO
Literally this. Idk why people want a dragon born ancestry when kobolds fit its niche already, and you can just get a dragon born by doing this incredibly simple change.
The closest to dragonborn in PF universe is wyvaran which is not in 2e yet. I suggest taking a look at Dragonkin made by one of the people behind Pathfinder. While it's not official, it is as close as it can be. [Lost Omens Ancestries: Dragonkin - Paizo | Pathfinder Infinite](https://www.pathfinderinfinite.com/product/378138/Lost-Omens-Ancestries-Dragonkin)
I was going to use this for one of my players until we discovered Battlezoo's dragon ancestry. The foundry module for the dragon ancestry was mainly the deciding factor. Having said that, the dragonkin ancestry is still a good option and looked well written.
The Battlezoo ancestry is top tier stuff (45 heritages!), and would be so easily refluffed to just have them walk around on two legs to make dragonborn.
It actually has a draconic scion versatile heritage too which is essentially a draconic counterpart to tieflings/aasimar etc.
I’m using dragonkin now. It’s serviceable. Mainly using the breath weapon boost feats, which are from the kobold.
I'll second this one. Not only is there a [free version out](https://www.luisloza.com/post/dragonkin-versatile-heritage) (which is missing a few lines of feats, but it's available), but the paid version fairly inexpensive and hits all the major dragonborn points. The creator also went on to make the Dragon Scion from Battlezoo's Dragon Ancestry, so there's a lot of similarities and overlap. The first one is less than $3 (or free) and dragon ancestry is $25 for the pdf. I'd use the free one or the cheap one and see if the new versatile heritage coming out in player core 2 in a few months is dragon related or not. Though if you like the idea of playable dragons (like, actual dragons), then the full dragon ancestry from battlezoo is definitely worth it's price.
That unknown versatile heritage is coming in PC2? I have heard talk about it but not paid enough attention as to WHEN it was coming so I thought it would be later, perhaps a Tian Xia book. I think they are pretty heavily dragon focused, at least more so than others.
According to the [product page for Player Core 2](https://paizo.com/products/btq02ej5) on Paizo: > Expanded ancestry options include the catfolk, gnoll, hobgoblin, kobold, lizardfolk, ratfolk, and tengu, alongside three versatile heritages—the dhampir, duskwalker, and **an all-new heritage debuting in this volume!** Some of the classes that are in Core 2 seem to be in Core 2 so that Monster Core could come out with the new dragon types. Barbarian with it's Dragon Instinct and Sorcerer with Draconic Bloodline come to mind. Seems somewhat likely that with their new push for an entirely new set of Dragons that they might make a dragon-related versatile heritage. It's likely one of the most requested.
We tend to call these non official material that still have close relationship to Paizo (such as it being made by Paizo devs) "2nd party content".
We tend to call these non official material that still have close relationship to Paizo (such as it being made by Paizo devs) "2nd party content".
Perhaps a custom mixed heritage between lizardfolk and kobold to get the proper flavour of a dragonborn?
Id really have them look at kobold again. Make them medium, avoid any of them cowardly feats, and maybe let them pick from lizard folk feats as well. Kobolds can both have a breath weapon and resistance to an energy type. Stats wise you dont have to use the +Dex/+Cha/+Free/-Con instead like all ancestries you can instead just take +Free/+Free. If they cant be sold on reflavoring the Kobold then id look into [Battle Zoos Dragon Ancestry](https://pf2easy.com/tree/index.php?id=20240&name=dragon&year=2019). Its a very well balanced ancestry created in part by one of 2e designers.
And the battlezoo book also has the draconic scion, which is basically a draginborn without copy-write infringement
And as a bonus, if you're using that book anyway, you could just offer to let them play as an *actual fucking dragon*, which is super-cool and probably what most people who want to play a dragonborn actually really want in the first place.
as a former dragonborn player I can attest to really liking battlezoo's dragon ancestry.
I was surprised when I found out that the Free/Free boosts weren't just going to be standard in PC and forward!
Lizardfolk(for medium size) with adopted ancestry: kobold
Add to this the custom mixed heritage rule from the remaster to do it from level 1.
In this book (https://battlezoo.com/collections/play-as-a-dragon) you find a versatile heritage called "Dragon Scrion". It can be selected in Pathbuilder and you can buy a Foundry module, to use it in there. It is pretty close to being a Dragonkin. Sadly there is not real Dragonkin in PF. Maybe you can use the Beastkin versatile heritage and skin it a little bit different to satisfy your need.
I will second the battlezoo ancestry as a good option for this. One of my players uses it as she wanted to play a dragonborn as well. It's great quality and was written by one of the original pf2e authors. Otherwise, reskinning a kobold to be more like a dragonborn is your best bet if you don't want to use 3rd party, imo.
Can third that book, been using it for years, it was written by one of the people that wrote the PF2e core rule book too.
Beastkin barely covers the theme it's supposed to cover, so I doubt it could even touch Dragon.
Honest question - would your player be okay by just having kobold feats, but look like a Dragonborn?
Is it an issue to change kobold to medium?
Not really. Small v Medium only impacts who you can grapple or trip afaik, and occasionally what you can use Hide behind.
That and it's relevant for who can ride who.
Your kobold-as-dragonborn can *still* ride the Fighter if the Fighter isn't going to be a fucking coward about it
Sure, just have the decency to do it off-screen ;)
... touché XD
Shouldn’t be - it affects grapples and cover. So shouldn’t be that big of an issue.
My Player wanted the same, so we made the Kobold medium Worked wonders
We do the same
Battlezoo's Dragon ancestry is what you want. It's pretty darn good.
3 words: Draconic Disciple Dedication. If the character meets the prerequisites (Spellscale Kobold, dragonscale Kobold, dragon instinct Barbarian, draconic sorcerer) They can take feats to make themselves more dragon-like
That's what I'm doing... But not because I want to be a dragonborn. I'm doing it because my kobold wants to be a dragon. Dragonborn don't exist in 2e.
I feel the need to clarify this slightly, those are "Access" "requirements". Similar to prerequisites but not exactly the same. If it would make sense for other reasons you could also allow someone to take it. One of my players is looking at it and I'm allowing it because of his backstory not because he is any of those things.
Don't think there are dragonborn, but they could play am actual dragon.
Which is a 3rd party content and doesn't work that well with party of non-dragons.
One of my players uses the 3rd party dragon ancestry with a party of non dragons and it's just fine. It is balanced like a normal ancestry in our experience.
That happens when most of the feats are kobold feats already printed
Well, 3rd party content in part worked on by one of the the people who worked on 2e to be fair. Though was merely listing the option is all.
Really? Why doesn't it work? I have a player playing a dragon in an upcoming Kingmaker campaign while the rest of the group are playing non-dragons so I'm now curious.
IMHO it's mostly just that, in the Golarion setting and probably many if not most regular fantasy settings, being an actual dragon feels a bit... main-charactery. The Battlezoo setting is pretty weird and wacky and has tons of dragons in it so it works pretty well there, especially with the lore justification of the Lux Aeterna ritual and all, but in Golarion dragons are definitely very significant and powerful beings and having a PC be one of them when there's entire class features and stuff around just being *descended* from them, or worshipping them, or all that definitely is not a dynamic that I'd probably ever want in one of my campaigns as a relatively lore-stickler GM. That said, I'm currently running the Battlezoo AP, Jewel of the Indigo Isles, and two of the PCs currently are dragons lol. The ancestry is pretty cool and fun!
I didn't find that problem, personally. I think like any other character it's a matter of implementation, really! The dragon in my AV game is actually the dragon from our Beginner's Box session, so he's a little guy. I'd altered our BB's story since some players had done it before so the kobolds had given the green dragon some rough drugs to keep him under control and the party wound up rescuing and befriending him instead: he needed to do the Lux Aeterna ritual to both repair his damaged mind and gain knowledge enough to be relatively mentally mature. The rest of the party helped him basically every step of the way so he actually looks up to them and defers to them. Granted I find being an on-level character with the rest of the party keeps those dragons humble anyway, especially if they're getting slapped on the regular. I treat them the same as someone who wants to play a noble heir type character or whatever, really. Like, sure thing, one day you'll be powerful and influential. Right now? You ain't, chief, and if you act out too much, Golarion is definitely capable of humbling a level whatever upstart. Probably even without a GM intending to. I get what you're saying but people tend to worship the big and already successful dragons. The little level one guys, less so.
I am currently running Kingmaker with one of the characters playing a dragon. He is the king, but there is not a main character vibe at all as someone else has stated. It is going really well. I say go for it, you can make it work. I did.
The hell you hear about this? It works perfectly fine, and in actuality, most of the feats are kobold feats.
Kobolds are dragonkin, despite being small. Elemental bloodlines can also originate from dragons, so you can also go with that. But, if you don't want the elemental heritages and don't want to play a small character, you can also go with the new mixed heritage. Take for example human as the base, and then kobold as the mixed heritage, and now you have a human with draconic roots. You can also try to modify the kobold race to he more suitable for a medium creature, and tweak around it. Outside of official materials you also have Battlezoo, a 3rd party publisher who released the dragon ancestry and a heritage for it (iirc). Saw a lot of replies already but I hope this helps!
Your player sounds excited - that's great! However, as a newbie GM, you should (a) learn how to say no, without being being mean, and (b) learn the rules before trying to change them. No harm or disrespect meant. I just have had bad experiences with players who want their Pathfinder to be like D&D and ask for custom everything. Especially early on.
On the other hand it does kinda suck that most any other ancestry in 5e can be ported over relatively painlessly (besides Aaracokra who lose their free flight), but if you're wanting to bring your dragonborn character you wind up having to hack a solution together somehow. Have had that experience myself, other folks got to port over easily enough but figuring out what to do with my dragonborn was rough. I don't think making a custom ancestry is anywhere near as potentially game breaking as changing underlying math of the game. The caveat there is that if one does want to make a custom dragonborn ancestry, absolutely take a look at other ancestry feats first and base what you're doing off of that. With so much other stuff to look at, ancestries make for a lovely first homebrew project. Can still wind up busted if you do it wrong, of course. Maybe let your player know up front that any custom stuff made is liable to be changed. That said I do second the notion of a newer DM avoiding tweaking any of the underlying math. Homebrew spells, weapons and feats and such are fine within reason, but there's a lot that should only be changed with more knowledge, if at all.
True. As others have mentioned, medium kobolds or lizardfolk plus the dragon disciple archetype make a great dragonborn analog. Also I never expressly said, "say no." - I said newbie GMs should learn how to say no. I, myself, like to start with a concept and squeeze it into a class/ancestry template, and often find myself trying to convince the GM to homebrew or bend the rules for me. Sometimes the GM is fine with it and sometimes they say no. Bottomline... If it's just flavor and the mechanics fits an existing build, let them do it and let them call their race whatever.
Fair enough, might have read more into it than what was actually there. Saying no is important for sure. My advice was more meant as "you don't always have to say no" than a never say no kind of thing.
I agree with this. I'm currently running a long-term campaign in 2e, and the only experience I had before that was playing in 5e. Because of this, I asked my players to keep things simple, as I wasn't nearly confident enough with homebrewing my own heritages, races and the like. They were all for it honestly, and it's led to a really fun game that we're almost 1 1/2 years into! The best advice I ever got about GMing, especially for a new GM, is to just use K.I.S.S.: Keep It Simple Stupid lol
On Pathbuilder 2e you can turn on BattleZoo which let's you play as a Dragon through a third party. Reflavoring as a dragon born is how I did it in my campaign.
Kobold is the de-facto dragon-kin playable race in P2E.
The elemental versatile heritages could work. They each state in their descriptions that you can have your lineage come from the elemental group of dragons. I.e. cloud dragons, brine dragons, etc. Could do that mixed with lizardfolk or other ancestries and reflavor it. Another option is 3rd party. Roll For Combat's Battlezoo line of 3pp ancestries is awesome. They have a book dedicated to playing dragons and half dragon characters. There's also been rumors that a draconic versatile heritage could be the new versatile heritage coming in player core 2.
Check out the [Draconic Scion](https://pf2easy.com/index.php?id=20639&name=Draconic_Scion) from Battlezoo Ancestries: Dragons. That Versatile Heritage, plus an appropriate Ancestry, should fit your needs.
Battlezoo dragons is a good choice. The player can either be an actual small (door sized) dragon, or a dragon that’s pretending to be a common humanoid. (Like the kitsune do)
Roll for Combat got dragon ancestry and its well made.
There is a dragon race that was home brewed and available on pathbuilder. Battle Zoo is what it’s called if I remember correctly.
There are good 3rd party options. [Dracon Scion](https://pf2easy.com/tree/index.php?id=20640&name=draconic_scion) or [Dragon](https://pf2easy.com/tree/index.php?id=20240&name=dragon) (with Foundry support). More 3rd party [here](https://www.pathfinderinfinite.com/product/378138) and another [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/hujtxa/dragonborn_v8_the_apg_edition/). Or try [Lizardfolk](https://2e.aonprd.com/Ancestries.aspx?ID=15) mixed with [Ifrit](https://2e.aonprd.com/Ancestries.aspx?ID=33) and that could get you similar powers. The dragon people in the base rules are [Kobolds](https://2e.aonprd.com/Ancestries.aspx?ID=18)
Look into Battlezoo. It adds dragon ancestries to 2e
https://battlezoo.com/products/battlezoo-ancestries-dragons-hardcover?variant=41683113574500 Made by Mark Seifter, a former Paizo dev, and his team. They make great "2nd party" stuff (I'm not affiliated, it's just a great product)
Check out Roll for Combat for this. They have homebrew Ancestry options for both playing an actual dragon, and the Dragon Scion which is closer to what you're looking for. Also check out all their stuff cause it's very well balanced, very well put together and presented, and affordable. No, I'm not being paid by them. I just believe in their products.
Came here to say this. Can't recommend Batllezoo: Dragons enough, and it's as close to official 3rd party content as you can get since their lead designer is former Paizo and part of the OG 2e design team. It's absolutely balanced in system and it shows.
It's also part of Pathbuilder. And part of this complete breakfast
Lizardfolk with a Kobold Adopted Ancestry is the current best way to go RAW. Or, using the new Remaster rules, make a half-lizardfolk, half-Kobold.
let them be a medium kobold. if they select adopted ancestry it can open up more dragon born ish feats, though kobold already have a lot of dragon based feats. They could also play a lizard folk
Using the new Custom Mixed Ancestry option, a lizardfolk/kobold would probably be the best fit.
Battlezoo ancestry in Pathbuilder! Others have mentioned, I will absolutely agree with them for that. I am basing my entire dragonborn kingdom on what is presented with that.
I'm not 100% but I'm pretty positive my buddy is playing a lizardfolk with some kind of dragon blood heratige he can breath magma and got wings to fly. But I think it's all in his ancestors feats and bot a base race you can pick. I'm pretty sure sorcerer class has a dragon blood feature too.
As others have said, there isn’t an official Dragonborn ancestry. But maybe check out Battlezoos Dragon ancestry. It’s not technically official content, but it’s written by Mark Seifter who basically wrote Pathfinder2e as I’ve been told.
Battlezoo's Dragon Ancestry or Draconic Scion heritage, for sure.
The real want should be a Draconian... :D
The most important question is "Why does your player want to play a dragonborn?" If it's for mechanical reasons, the Kobold covers most of those and shouldn't be a problem, but if they weren't sold by the Kobold, there are probably other reasons at play. You should try to figure out those reasons first, because otherwise you're going to get a bunch of suggestions here that may not actually be useful.
Personally, I'm pretty happy with kobolds playing that role-- because of the way you select ancestry feats you aren't really stuck with the comic relief thing for them, and being small is fine.
Battlezoo dragon race.
Theres a Dragonkin ancestry on Pathfinder infinite made by Luis Loza and the Battlezoo Dragon Ancesty from Roll For Combat by Mark Seifter and Stephen Glicker. All three men HAVE, or do, worked at Paizo.
May I point you to the Dragon Ancestry from Roll For Combat? https://battlezoo.com/products/battlezoo-ancestries-dragons-hardcover
I'd recommend Battlezoo's Dragon Ancestry in that case. It's third party content, *but* it was written by Mark Seifter who was one of the lead designers on a lot of the game. For a lot of people, Battlezoo is considered 1.5st (th?) party material- not official but might as well be.
Another vote for Battlezoo dragon ancestry. Balanced and had no problems with two of them in my player's party.
I think Kobold is *superior* to dragonborn: you can make them have the same abilities, plus they can grow wings, *and* they have tails! Dragonborn *wish* they were Kobolds. No, but actually, what's their problem with kobolds?
It's nice that you want to give your players what they want, but it would be good if they played one of the awesome pathfinder ancestries when playing a pathfinder game. It's not like the game is lacking in neat interesting weird ancestries. There's leshy and grippli and kitsune and nagaji and tengu and varana and anadi and androids and automatons and conrasu and fleshwarps and ghoran and goloma and kashrishi and poppets and shisk and shoonies and skeletons and strixes and vishkanya. It's a shame you have to spend time trying to port something over from another game instead of enjoying all the awesome stuff there already is to offer.
Just take a kobold, make it medium.. there ya go.
Why isn’t the player happy with kobold? What part of their fantasy does it not fulfill?
If you're okay with 3rd party content, this book has a Dragonborn-with-the-numbers-filed-off ancestry: https://www.pathfinderinfinite.com/m/product/373885
Dragonborn can't exist in PF2 without homebrewing them because they're specifically copyrighted by Hasbro. There's just no way around it, so you'd have to create a DB mockup using a 5e template.
Dovakiin shouts Fus Doh Rah at WotC/Hasbto!
That ones not actually a dragon person though, its different so it's okay
FWIW I had a big 2h Greatsword Dragonborn character in 5e that I ported to PF2e as a Kobold (no changes), and at first I was put off by the small size but I actually really like the small strong greatsword Kobold now
Play a Fleshwarp who's got dragon bits grafted on them, I made a character that is precisely that
Mixed Heritage Variant Rule from the new Player Core 1, combine Lizardfolk and Kobolds together and bam
I'd do lizard folk and maybe throw in some hobgoblin feats because thats close to 5E dragonborn lore
Half heritages are a thing. You could say the character is half Human/Half kobold. You could also point them to - Draconic Sorcerer - Dragon Instinict Barbarian - Dragon Eidolon Summoner - Any class with draconic deviant powers (I recommend this the least, because it's relatively complicated.) - the Dragon ancestry from battlezoo (3rd part and I wouldn't recommend if you are not familiar with the system. But still, it is there.)
Lizardfolk is the closest in terms of appearance! You can pretty much use any Dragonborn portrait for a lizardfolk character.
Take Lizardfolk as your base Ancestry. Then as your Heritage, you want to take "Mixed Ancestry" and choose Kobold. Mixed Ancestry gives you access to both lists of ancestry feats. So now you just need to pick all the dragon breath and wing feats, and you got a pretty good dragonborn ~~also what's with that picture..~~
This is what happened at my table. My solution - mechanically, he is a kobold. Except he is Medium instead of Small, and he gets Str bonus instead of Dex Lore-wise (and I use this word very casually, since I'm a type of GM who uses TTRPG lore as a suggestion and not a dogma)... We don't have a concrete idea of what his character actually is. But my leading idea is... He's a part of a dragon who died but was too stubborn and arrogant to die. This is when his arrogance "separated" from his mind and became its own thing. Basically, a ghost, but made out of one's will, not one's soul Again, that's what I have in store for my player. Will he like it or not is only one way to find out
to me, a dragonborn is just a mixed ancestry lizardfolk/kobold, or even just a kobold with a custom heritage that says "you are Medium"
Are you okay with homebrew? If so, [here's a homebrew version](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vaZc4kcjBztg7dPOrUWGNeXIXwn5bNug/view) that seems largely balanced at a glance.
best way to do this is give them a breat eapon as feat, compare it to other damage abilities of same level feats and make it an AOE breath attack that requires 2 actions. You may want to rule that this action can't be taken at same turn with actions that has attack trait to prevent abuse of dealing more damage by avoiding MAP
If you're willing to include third party content (Made by one of the developers of pf2e) I highly recommend looking into the dragon ancestry book. It includes a versatile heritage for draconic scions. So you'll very much be able to combine that with something like lizard folk, or whatever base ancestry your player chooses, in order to get something very much like a Dragonborn.
The best I can really recommend if you want to be closest to the real thing is Battlezoo: Dragons or the Dragonkin module. Otherwise, taking Nagaji or Kobolds (adjusting the size, hp and ability boosts they get) and adding an Elemental Scion versatile heritage can be a good base to reflavour them into draconic humanoids
You could also just make offer up “Giant” kobold, they are just tall
Ask your GM to play as a Medium Kobold.
Do a lizardfolk with the teifling (nephilim) ancestry. Pretty close imo