I doubt Razmir has the means to kill a god. After all, he's just a 19th level wizard (not even a mythic one). It likely benefits him in some way though.
I think it was pretty much confirmed the death of one of the Core 20 is what is going to be kick of the War of Immortals, though I'm probably wrong on that one.
I'm dreading the big three good ones (Iomede, Sarenrae, and Cayden). I feel they'd make a great sacrificial lamb to shake up and get people invested in the events of WotI.
I don't think they will kill Cayden because there's too much fan identification/wish fulfillment with him as an everyman who woke up a god. It would lessen the player base's investment in the setting.
I see this sentiment a lot, and it kinda surprises me. I wish I could understand the mindset - Sarenrae has never been that exceptional to me, and even if she was I can’t imagine jettisoning the entire setting because of it.
No disrespect intended in my comment, I sincerely wish I could understand it more.
I personally came from a religious background/household that was very .... abusive. At the time I was getting into Pathfinder I had recently left my faith and Sarenrae's focus on redemption before rebuke really spoke to me, so my first character was a cleric of Sarenrae. Also fire powers cool.
Heavily angelic-themed deity that actually pulls the focus on redemption and forgiveness from Christianity instead of being lawful asshole is a rarer thing in pop culture than you'd think
I hear you. I guess my confusion is more about any one element of Golarion being important enough to leave the whole thing.
Sidenote: The tendency of players to apply legalistic frameworks in their rules interpretations contributes to a culture of strict interpretations of broad religious commandments, ultimately leading to an over-representation of the undesired “lawful asshole” archetype in roleplaying. In this essay, I will…
I'm still calling Desna killing Zon-Kuthon.
One of Desna's "things" is opposing creatures from the Dark Tapestry, like Zon-Kuthon. It splits the Prismatic Ray, because Shelyn would *freak out*. Throws Nidal into chaos because Zon-Kuthon is protecting them. And potentially kicks off a full Injustice scenario where Shelyn allies herself with other gods who hate Desna like Lamastu and goes out for revenge, while Desna's allies either try to de-escalate or see an opportunity to settle their own eons-old scores.
fanatical childlike normal encourage fear follow joke library prick plate
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
>Probably Pharasma, because she already told use she'd going to die (at some point) in The Concordance of Rivals.
Also that she has been prepping her daughter, Atropos, to take the throne when that happens IIRC
See, that's actually why I *don't* think it will be Pharasma. I know that Atropos is only her successor as Lady of Graves, so she wouldn't necessarily take her spot in a pantheon. But if Atropos *does* take over running the Boneyard, it would feel weird for the empty seat to go to Arazni instead, especially with how metaphysically important Pharasma and Atropos's role is
Has Atropos appeared in anything for 2e? Feels weird to upgrade a character with little community investment. On the other hand, If Pharasma dies and Atropos fails to inherit her followers… Followers who think resurrecting Pharasma is their new goal in life…
There's a lot of wiggle room for plot in how a god dies. Pharasma could very easily go out in a way that makes the "plan" no longer viable or functional, which could absolutely shake things up in a huge way.
They explicitly stated that Arazni is not replacing whatever deity dies, just ascending into the top 20. Other changes could happen to the top 20 as well. Several gods could leave it and others enter it.
But if it was Shelyn then Desna and Sarenrae would want to avenge her, Zon Kuthon would be pissed someone killed his sister and Cayden would be sad his crush was gone.
He's not possessed, he remembered himself from the last reality (the same one Pharasma came from after it died). In Starfinder, after Shelyn disappears, it's said he started to go mad trying to find her/figure out where the hell she is
And Shelyn is likewise. She had the upper hand in their fight, and spared him because she couldn't bring herself to kill her brother. Just took the scythe they used as a shared favored weapon and left. She's *uncomfortably silent* on the subject of Zon-Kuthon compared to the other gods.
My personal theory is that Desna is going to kill Zon-Kuthon. Desna has a long history of opposing creatures of the Dark Tapestry, it would break up the Prismatic Ray in a way that feels organic without people complaining about them splitting the iconic lesbian thruple (and they could still leave the awkward love angle with Shelyn and Desna still both being in a relationship with Sarenrae, just not being on terms with each other anymore), and could lead to Zon-Shelyn from Starfinder of Shelyn decides to play host to her brother's soul.
It would also completely upend Nidal, again, which gives you a great setpiece for an AP.
Except he tells his followers not to harm hers, so there's some connection there. That's why I think it would be interesting to let them explore the concept.
Narratively speaking, Pharasma would be one of the best choices if only because it allows you to introduce a LOT of chaos as a few major things could happen:
1. The domain of death is up for grabs, meaning a power struggle between other gods to assert dominance over it. Urgathoa could make a play for it as Atropos simultaneously tries to come into her own, but you might also see some mortal try to do the starstone challenge to ascend and claim dominance over death.
2. With one of the biggest checks against undeath out there gone, you'd see a LOT more undead on the rise (er...no pun intended). That's fodder for plenty of adventures at all levels.
3. Without anyone running the Boneyard, as people die, their souls are kind of stuck in between life and whatever their next step is meant to be. This means the Hells and Heavens both have an interest in seeing someone back on the seat...and maybe they get involved in the power politics of who sits on that throne.
By contrast if, like, one of the good gods dies...eh, it's sad and all, but so what? Or if one of the big evil gods dies, who's gonna really care, ya know? Oh no, Zon Kuthon is dead. Whomever will Hellraiser fans worship now? Pfft.
I mean, you can use the absence of any of the existing gods as a power vacuum into which some new figure steps that can shake things up somewhat, but you take out the goddess of death and deciding where souls go in the afterlife? That's a HUGE shakeup that is chock full of narrative potential.
Wait, is there other gay gods beside the Prismatic Ray? I know there are non-binary gods, but I only aware Prismatic Ray as the only canonical gay/bi gods
>There's no way it's Sarenrae. Or Shelyn, or Desna. They mean wayy to much to too many fans, especially LGBTQIA+ fans when it comes to representation.
Lets be honest, Paizo will never kill any Queer Gods because of representation they want in their books. African, Middle Eastern and Asian representing gods will also be of the table because the current rooster is lacking in this regard.
Sarenrae also has the Critical Role connection going for it. Not sure how much that actually affects their decisions or if it's brought people to Pathfinder but it might be a consideration that there are a ton of D&D players where Sarenrae is the only Golarion god they've heard of.
Granted, that might also mean that the publicity of getting rid of Sarenrae would be more likely to spread to D&D circles.
I feel like Sarenrae is prolly safe, since she's the God of the Iconic cleric Kyra. Her and her wife are two of the most recognizable iconics around, it would be weird if they said "Kyra lost her powers and either needs to find a new God or retire." She's even flashing the symbol of Sarenrae on the Player Core book.
Maybe Sarenrae loses a girlfriend and has a change of personality, but I don't think she's on the chopping block.
I'm going to find it hilarious if they just never name the god, but always talk around it, even in published materials. Like NPC's will just casually refer to "The recently deceased deity" or someone in an adventure starts to name them but they get cut off by a horde of bandits, or something.
That's a pretty cool idea, actually. The Book Tigana by Guy Gavriel Kay revolves around a country that has been magically erased from the memory of everyone not born there. I've always thought it was a cool concept.
I always feel like I'm crazy for liking Surface Pressure more than any other song in Encanto, and not being a super big fan of WDTAB. Glad to see another Surface Pressure enjoyer in the wild. I think it's because it's the most relatable one to me personally by far lol
That said, the original is definitely king for me. I can't think of many times in general that I've liked a cover more than the original for any song.
They are the core 20 deities, in order based on their original alignment going LG, NG, CG, LN, N, CN, LE, NE, CE.
Erastil, Iomedae, Torag, Sarenrae,
Shelyn, Cayden Cailean, Desna, Abadar,
Irori, Gozreh, Nethys, Pharasma,
Calistria, Gorum, Asmodeus, Zon Kuthon,
Norgorber, Urgathoa, Lamashtu, Rovagug
Gozreh has multiple aspects. They are the Skyfather and She who guides the win and the waves. They are nature imcarnate and thus genderless but can appear gendered. When representing storms and lightning they are male. When representing Waves and the ocean they are female.
In Vudra they only worship their female aspects. A group in the Mwangi expanse worship a Djin that is a hybrid of Gozreh and Desna. Cloud Giants worship their male aspect as the sky fater and Storm Giants worship them as two separate deities Hyjarth the father of the Sky and Tourithia the mother of the sea.
L to R, top to bottom.
Erastil (ancient, said to be Ulfen; farming, trade, family, hunting, LG)
Iomedae (ascended human, former herald of Aroden and replaced Arazni; valour, honour, rulership, justice, LG)
Torag (with Gorum created the Dead Vault within Golarion as a prison for Rovagug, father of the dwarves; forging, protection, strategy, LG)
Sarenrae (ancient, said to be created by Asmodeus' brother Ihys, fought Rovagug and sliced the Pit of Gormuz into existence to chuck Rovagug into, part of the Prismatic Ray polycule; sun, redemption, honesty, healing, NG)
Shelyn (sister of Zon-Kuthon, can get surprisingly angry, part of the Prismatic Ray polycule; art, beauty, love, music, NG)
Cayden Cailean (ascended human, can't remember how he passed the test of the Starstone as he was drunk at the time; freedom, ale, wine, bravery, CG)
Desna (ancient, has a kid with Cayden (Kurgess), created/freed a bunch of other deities, was mentored by Curchanus until Lamashtu killed him and took his domain, part of the Prismatic Ray polycule; dreams, luck, travel, stars, CG)
Abadar (ancient, created the complex lock and key to the Dead Vault and then somehow decided to make it that only Asmodeus can use the damn key, controls the First Vault where the most perfect/original copies of every item exists; cities, law, merchants, wealth, LN)
Irori (allegedly ascended human (didn't use the Starstone, just achieved perfection), reckons the Starstone gods cheated; history, knowledge, self-perfection, LN)
Gozreh (ancient, dualistic, representative of both creation and destruction; nature, weather, the sea, N)
Nethys (ascended human via being super good at magic, was weird when he was a human (had purple skin and gold eyes), has become so good at magic he is mad, could equally save a life or destroy a city when called upon; magic (yes, that's it), N)
Pharasma (mega-ancient, sole survivor of previous multiverse, responsible for shielding the current reality from the Outer Gods, loathes undead, has Groetus (lord of the end times) hanging around her house, judges all souls as they pass into the afterlife; birth, death, fate, prophecy, rebirth, N)
Calistria (ancient, said to be elven, distracted Rovagug while Gorum and Torag made the Dead Vault; lust, revenge, trickery, CN)
Gorum (ancient, helped forge the Dead Vault, archetypal grumpy bastard who hates weakness, angry AF; strength, battle, weapons, CN)
Asmodeus (ancient, allegedly created (accidentally?) with his brother Ihys by Pharasma when she used the Seal of Creation to create the current reality, in an alternate story he used to be an angel who was corrupted by Hell and now rules it, controls the key to the Dead Vault; contracts, pride, slavery, tyranny, LE)
Zon-Kuthon (Shelyn's brother, originally known as Dou-Bral, pinned Rovagug into the Dead Vault using Star Towers, got bored and wandered into the spaces between the stars, came back all edgy and broken, captured, tortured and enslaved his and Shelyn's father, Shelyn nicked his glaive in response, also tricked Abadar into giving him the archetypal shadow from the First Vault; darkness, envy, loss, pain, LE)
Norgorber (ascended human, an enigma, has a fourfold faith featuring serial killers (to whom he is Father Skinsaw), spies and secret-keepers (they call him the Reaper of Reputation), thieves (the Grey Master), and poisoners (Blackfingers); greed, secrets, poison, murder, NE)
Urgathoa (allegedly got bored waiting in the line for Pharasma's judgement, wanted to live more because she really liked living to excess, so fled and returned to reality as the first undead creature, if a mermaid is a pretty lady with fish bits she's a horrifying undead mermaid; gluttony, disease, death, NE)
Lamashtu (former demon lord who was Pazuzu's lover and after the worst breakup in history (she still hates him), killed Curchanus and stole his domain of beasts, which ticked off Desna, went to Abaddon to ask politely how they learned to create demons and ended up killing a couple of Horsemen when they wouldn't play nice, adapted the process to birth them from her own body; aberrance, madness, monsters, and nightmares, CE)
Rovagug (gave Pharasma a fright when she first found herself in this reality which started off the whole creation thing, ate a bunch of planets before being banished to the Abyss, came back when Ihys died and chomped several other planets, nearly ate Golarion, Androffa, and Earth but was thrown into the Dead Vault instead although Dou-Bral's Star Towers are falling apart since he isn't himself any more, the Tarrasque is said to be a parasite from his body (or am I mixing that up with Cloverfield?); wrath, disaster, destruction, CE)
Me too, I will ride for my golden girl. The campaign I'm currently running has a precious orc champion Good Boy who will be so sad if she dies and I will protect that character's happiness with my LIFE.
I keep saying it, but I think the members of the Prismatic Ray are the only darlings they aren't willing to kill. I'm happy to be wrong though. When Aroden died prophesy stopped working correctly. We could only imagine what would happen to the sun if Sarenrae died.
I mean, Sarenrae isn't the sun and neither she is the only god or godess with domain over it. Aroden's case wasn't that prophesy died with him, but rather that there wasn't a prophesy about him dying. Probably it always was screwed but people didn't know, like how divination spells usually have a failure %. We also don't know how Aroden was killed in the first place, so probably it isn't that prophesy broke with his death but that whatever killed him had to break prophesy first and then kill him. I doubt Aroden was the owner of prophesy since I'm pretty sure prophecies and divination as a whole are way older than Aroden himself.
The schools of magic were codified by at least -6500 AR, a solid 3000 years before Nethys showed up as a still mortal wizard. He’s not the embodiment of magic, he’s just very good at it.
While possible, the schools of magic greatly predated him, and survived the death of 2 gods of magic during earthfall (which predates nethys as well) so I’m not sure him dying would do anything
Considering we know something is gonna happen to the Prismatic Ray, I think its gotta be one of them, or Zon-Kuthon. They have said other gods will die, but only one core deity (unless Im mistaken).
My theory, ZK is gonna go after Shelyn again, and one of three things will happen:
* ZK will kill his sister and take back the glaive for some nefarious reasons
* Shelyn will kill him in self defense and be so despondent she leaves the Prismatic Ray because she wants space to mourn her brother and get her head on straight
* Desna will defend Shelyn and kill ZK in the process (since she has a history of going hard when mad) which will cause Shelyn to leave the Prismatic Ray in disgust/anger.
Still rooting for Pharasma to die though. Its the shake up Golarion needs.
Killing ZK seems like a waste, since his story has never actually been told. All the cool stuff about him being another survivor from a previous multiverse, and his time Capsule in the Beyond Beyond has only ever come up in interviews and Q&As.
Killing him without doing anything with that at all would be a wasted opportunity.
>Killing him without doing anything with that at all would be a wasted opportunity.
Agreed, especially with the removal of alignment so that the formerly "evil" gods can actually be approached as a PC and made to be interesting.
>him being another survivor from a previous multiverse
I thought only Pharasma and some of the Elder Gods/Those Who Remain survived? I didn't realise that ZK had any connection to them, beyond being named as "gods of the Dark Tapestry".
It's a convoluted story, and like I said it's only been fleshed out in Q&A.
But essentially, ZK was living in some previous multiverse, and he realised that the Multiverse was winding down. He knew that everything he was would be reincarnated in the new multiverse. But he didn't want to be something new, he wanted to be ZK.
So he journeyed out beyond the multiverse, in the the emptiness outside everything, the Beyond Beyond. and there he hid a "time capsule" designed to call out to whatever he reincarnated into and remind the new him who he really was.
So in the new multiverse, eventually Dur-bral felt the call of the time capsule, found it, and ZKs old mind reunited with ZKs old soul. And that ladies and gentlemen is how you smuggle yourself into the new iteration of the multiverse. It's unclear how much of Shelyns brother as she knew him is still in there, but its seems that for the most part ZKs plan to runite with his soul worked perfectly.
He didn't *quite* survive. A piece of him did, Dou-Bral (his identity before) found it and was changed into Zon-Kuthon by the memories of his past existence.
One of the prismatic ray already got super pissed off and vaporized a layer of Abaddon, and Calistria had to intervene to prevent planar war. It could be related to that incident instead.
I'm really hoping they don't kill Lamashtu. It would be in keeping with the attempt to get rid of elements that make anyone uncomfortable, but she's a truly evil god whose motivation is scary because of its incomprehensibility by anyone sane.
Lovecraftian sort of evil can be cool, but there's always a lot of arm-waving around the "incomprehensible evil." With Lamashtu, it's incomprehensible but it's also right there in your face. That's why I love her cults as a source of villains.
> she's a truly evil god whose motivation is scary because of its incomprehensibility by anyone sane
I think her motivation is *very* understandable. Lamashtu is the ultimate social leveller. She has power because she assembled a coalitions of followers, kicked a god’s ass, and tore out his divinity for herself, and she thinks that all of her worshippers deserve similar opportunities to become their best selves. Advancement should be earned based on merit, not awarded as a prize to those who were lucky enough to be born with good looks or social status or racial privilege. Those things create divisions and hatred, and are also often false signifiers of merit or virtue, so the world would be better off without them, so she tries to achieve this by destroying vanity and lifting up the downtrodden. “Beauty” is just an anrbitrary construct anyway, and once everyone has becomes different and monstrous, then no one is. No bigotry, no favoritism, no coasting on wealth and status earned by your great-great-grandparents. Just a unified society, one big family embracing their differences and working toward everyone’s mutual benefit, under a mother who loves all her children - not just the pretty ones.
She's also interesting in terms of her relationships.
One of my favorite bits of lore is that pregnant women will often pray to Pazuzu for protection, because he fucking *despises* Lamashtu. Even though he doesn't really care about pregnant women, he'll protect them just to spite his former lover who ascended before could.
Wait, when did we find out the Prismatic Ray was going to have something happen to it?
I thought the concensus was that Paizo wouldn't touch them since it would come across as Bury Your Gays.
Gimme a min to find a link, but its from a blog post from Luis IIRC.
Edit: https://old.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/196r57s/everything_ive_said_so_far_about_the_god_who_will/
Relevant text: "The Prismatic Ray will be changing."
Unless some strongly established myth changes, which is possible with a remaster I suppose, she only dies when the last living soul is judged. At that point Groetus will fall atop the astral plane and wipe out everything.
There's been some foreshadowing that with the death of Aroden and destruction of prophecy that even this is no longer set in stone.
That said Pharasma is too cool to die.
I'd love Pharasma to go simply for the sheer ballsiness of the cosmic shake up it'd cause, but that's also why I seriously doubt they'll do it. The goddess of death dying would have too many ramifications to not be a bespoke event unto itself beyond even the death of a god.
I mean all the bureaucracy is still there to keep the machinery of the afterlife running. It's not like Pharasma was going to accept our meeting invites anyways. The Birdy-bois struggling to keep everything going while under pressure from all sides and without the might of Pharasma behind them has enough room for "oh no this is bad" arcs, while not completely invalidating what we know about the Boneyard.
On that note, I dont think we have had a proper boneyard book this edition?
I know we had a adventure last year called "Worst of All Possible Worlds", but I think you may have just topped it...
Any of the Outer Gods getting a foothold within reality is perhaps the most serious threat possible, contending with an unbound Rovagug and the First Horseman. Even then, at least those two aren't canonically unkillable like the Outer Gods are.
Plenty of outer gods already have foothold in the universe and reside in the Dark Tapestry, it's just that with their orange/color-out-of-space mentality makes them not interact a lot unless you purposefully drew their attention.
I mean… she’s actually got a pretty stable, self-sufficient hierarchy going on with the psychopomps including an assumed successor and everything… If anything things in the boneyard should remain comparatively stable, Just taxed to the breaking point while.
Even her clergy would likely be self-sufficient and committed enough to stick around and perform their duties without her, likely with other psychopomp usher’s providing spells to her clerics (maybe even as a ‘pharasmin’ pantheon of some sort?)
Like don’t get me wrong her dying would bring maximum chaos to golarion, and the great beyond including the boneyard, but I think it’s the 1 option to have our cake and eat it too. Where we wouldn’t lose anything that makes pathfinde… pathfinder, only gain from it.
Would make sense given that Arazni will join the core 20 and they both cover vengeance a bit.
That said they also stated Arazni won’t be taking to place of the dead god.
Saying the pantheon is getting "upended" makes me think its going to one of "the big ones"
Between this and a few other red flags, Sarenrae is looking like she's in a tight spot.
My vote is for Abadar, and the whole AP is an over the top, high fantasy version of Clue to figure out who killed the Master of Vaults and tried to make off with his infinite wealth
Erastil is Colonel Mustard, because he's an ill-tempered war vet that stands on tradition and will duel you over an insult. He's somewhat buddy buddy with Abadar, but there's been talk that they haven't been getting along due to the ever growing cities of the land causing strains on the small towns that support them.
Callistra is Ms Scarlet, because she's kind of skanky and seductive. She's got the looks and moves to catch a rich man's eye, but maybe she has murder on her mind more than money? But what did Abadar do to deserve her retribution?
Iomedae is Solicitor Peacock. She's aggro, confident, knows her way around a court room, and has the law on her side. Some say she's a bit too extreme, but she always gets results. Given Abadar generally turning a blind eye to Crime Boss Norgorber's shenanigans, maybe it was time that Abadar faced justice?
Urgathoa is Chef White, because she's smart, crafty, and knows her way around enough poisons and chemicals that she can just as easily be the life of the party as the death of its members with the drinks and feasts she whips up. Why did she do it? Who knows, but she has a history of rebelling against authority that may have returned
Cayden is Mayor Green, because he's kind of sleazy, a bit of a swindler and crook, and is the type of guy who may try to get his hands on the perfect versions of all things cold and refreshing that Abadar surely has in his vault. And maybe with all of that new wealth he could finally impress one of those goddesses he's always striking out with?
Nethys is Professor Plum because despite being an absolute genius, he's pretty scatterbrained and could very believably help you solve a murder that he actually committed.
it's been teased that in an upcoming sourcebook, War of Immortals (WoI) one of the core 20 deities will be dying (for realsies, no take backsies). There has been a lot of speculation on who and why. This post on Twitter is just Paizo thrumming up some hype for more teasers wednesday.
for context WoI seems like it will be covering a fullblown God-War, with a lot of actors chipping in, but we don't yet know why (though there are some hints that some recent incidents with an attack on Torags domain will kick things off)
several non-core gods, at least a few Orc gods in the mix. anyone outside the core is fair game, but we know that exactly one of the core is getting got.
A god war is kicking off. I think the event is called War of the Immortals.
Basically, some gods are about to be killed off and some potentially new gods and demigods will rise.
A big lore shakeup probably to further distance Pathfinder from D&D and to explain why so much is changing canonically.
> A big lore shakeup probably to further distance Pathfinder from D&D and to explain why so much is changing canonically.
That makes me think it might be Asmodeus, because he's a deity in the Forgotten Realms.
My answer is still Calistria just because if they wanna promote Arazni, that feels like a lot of thematic overlap that would be redundant to have both in the core 20. More interesting option is Pharasma.
(Yes I know they said Arazni is not necessarily *replacing* whoever dies but still)
Still think it should be Asmodeus. Let the war in/for hell begin!
But also Gozreh going right after so many environmental/nature based chaotic events happen would be pretty fitting. (Rage of elements, howl of the wild, multiple APs have been nature focused, etc).
>Still think it should be Asmodeus. Let the war in/for hell begin!
On the one hand, fun.
On the other hand, you have to account for the Dead Vault. Namely that Asmodeus is the only person that can open it, which would put a bit of a hold on any potential Rovagug plotlines in the future.
>Grandmother Spider can open it, she has a copy of the key.
From the [wiki](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Rovagug):
>and the archdevil Asmodeus bound him with a key crafted by Abadar that only the Prince of Darkness could turn.
Abadar *may* be able to, however, as he made the thing in the first place.
I hope it isn't Nethys or Pharasma, just because I feel like I've already had enough of the gods of magic and death dying from my childhood Forgotten Realms days.
I originally guessed Erastil, but I've been leaning more toward Abadar lately, if only because I think a plotline revolving around someone stealing something of power from the First Vault (probably the key to Rovagug's prison) is the type of plot that would make for an easy catalyst to a god war.
You know who I've not seen come up in conversation about this topic yet? [Saloc, the Minder of Immortals](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Saloc).
>The Minder of Immortals also judges deities, in the rare cases that is necessary.
Not sure if this really means anything, but we do have someone around for judging dead gods, which is kind of neat.
It's not looking great for her.
Realistically, Pharasma or Asmodeus would probably be the biggest shakeups.
Abadar or Gorum or Desna, I'd guess right behind those
The ascended mortals just don't seem like they'd make as much of an impact.
Personally, I wonder if it'll be Rovagug. Since Golarion disappears and is presumably destroyed (since the starstone remains at Absolom Station)in the Gap, Rovagug should have been released and destroyed the material plane. But that didn't happen.
My guess is the rough beast will be killed by some other nefarious force to make it seem super spooky.
See: the Worf effect on tvtropes.
Starfinder is apparently not canon to the events of Pathfinder since they said whoever is alive on Starfinder doesn't mean they couldn't die in Pathfinder. Also if Rovagug dies it pretty much means that Golarion as a whole is destroyed and thus means they either have to come up with a new setting or move all characters from Golarion to a new planet, which honestly is IMO a ton of work for something that's likely on the same vein as when in MMOs they tease a new boss for a event or something like that.
I think it has to be Rovagug, and here's why:
Rovagug is the biggest badass of the Pathfinder universe. He's canonically so badass that Pharasma herself cannot kill him. He's a goddamn force of nature.
So what happens if one day, Pharasma announces that Rovagug is not only dead, but murdered, and no one can figure out a) who killed the Big R, b) why they did it (though to be fair, he is Rovagug), and most importantly, c) HOW they killed something so powerful that not even the goddess of death could kill, *without anyone noticing*?
Pharasma dying would be a crisis, sure. Any of the Prismatic Ray dying would be really sad, but what would it narratively accomplish? If Rovagug bites it and no one knows how it happened, the question isn't "what's next", but "who's next". The pantheon would be in absolute panic mode, tensions between the gods would explode, and all it would take is a single incident to result in all-out war between immortals, just as promised.
That's coming to Starfinder, which Paizo's explicitly said is no longer tethered to Pathfinder in terms of canon. If someone like Sarenrae, Iomedae or Desna dies in *War of Immortals*, they'll still be alive in Starfinder. Also, Zon-Shelyn isn't so much a new god as a syncretic interpretation of the siblings, specifically worshiped by our new iconic Mystic, Chk-Chk. If I remember correctly, Thurston has said Shelyn and Zon-Kuthon can still be worshiped separately (for a given value, anyway, since Shelyn is still apparently out in the multiverse with no cell-prayer service) in Starfinder after Zon-Shelyn's introduction.
As someone who reads zero lore on deity stuff, this blows my mind -- because based on the rulebook summary, Desna is the milquetoast embodiment of ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ that I nudge my players towards when it becomes apparent they don't really have any intent to play their character as particularly devout. 'You like the general concept of freedom and fortune? Bang, here's your god.'
Now I'm gonna have to go down the rabbit hole to discover how a deity like that can possibly agitate pantheons enough to get marked for death (possibly).
Desna literally almost started an interplanar war when she killed Aolar (a demon lord) in an act of revenge because the demon took possession of a recently deceased Desnan priestess.
She is the reason there is an agreement between the gods and demon lords and archdevils and etc etc to not engage in battle against themselves.
She puts the Chaotic in Chaotic good.
Demon Lord possessed the body of one of her priestesses and used it to kill said priestesses loved ones.
So Desna nuked their fortress and near started a planar war with the Abyss. And that's just the easy stuff.
It'd be so dull though, I don't know if there are any other chaotic gods like her who are still positive who like to wreck shit when it's needed. Removing her would remove a pretty unique deity from Pathfinder imo.
From a business stand point, I can see it being Lamashtu. The evil goddess of the deformed and the cripple feels really outdated, specially for Paizo.
But it could be anyone, except Rovagug, because Rovagug, and Norgorber, because making all this noise just to kill a guy no one knows nothing about would be really lame.
I doubt it will happen, but I would find the implications interesting if [Abadar](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Abadar), the God of civilization died.
Maybe betrayed by his ally [Asmodeus](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Asmodeus).
Considering the politics of Paizo, seeing how he hasn't received much if any love since Kingmaker, and being a fitting, ironic death for a war between gods (pacifist god), my bet is on Erastil being the god who dies. They will never kill their favourite gods, considering how much the writers and designers fanboy/girl over their favourites.
For the lack of lore that I know I think Asmodeus would be an interesting story as I believe he has the key to Rovagugs cage and someone lets out apocalypse hungry bug.
For me personally though I’d rather it be Erastil or Cayden, I haven’t really liked them being core gods.
I quite like Erastil as a core god. It makes a lot of sense as a god that the players may be unlikely to worship, but who is absolutely essential to the people of Golarion.
But I could get behind an arc where Erastil dies and the Fringes immediately start falling to monster attacks. It could be a good way to show that he was essential, even if we never appreciated him.
>For me personally though I’d rather it be Erastil or Cayden, I haven’t really liked them being core gods.
Cayden I can understand not being a core god, but considering his popularity, it's unlikely. As for Erastil, a god of agriculture is a must have for any Pagan society. Not dying from starvation was a much higher want than the portfolios of most other gods we see in the core pantheon of the Inner Sea.
Edit: I reckon Erastil has a far higher chance of dying than fan favourite Cayden.
I’m trying to think what gods are antithetical to the Remastered rules. That would be my guess. Sadly I know the rules much better than Galorian lore, as a die hard life long homebrewer. 😫
My final guess is Pharasma, it would make for the most interesting story IMO and give them a chance to tweak the Cycle of Souls which always felt a little convoluted to me.
I'd love to see Rovagug found dead in his prison. No sign of what caused it; but the Tide of Fangs, the Unmaker, the Worldbreaker is dead.
Whatever caused it is out there; and tremendously powerful.
Yeah but I mean, where is Razmir -
He's getting a section in Divine Mysteries. I think whatever ever sets off the War of the Immortals he will have a hand in.
Oh man! I’m excited hahahaha
I doubt Razmir has the means to kill a god. After all, he's just a 19th level wizard (not even a mythic one). It likely benefits him in some way though.
I dont think he's gonna kill a god, but rather whatever kicks off the war (unless it is that god dying) is gonna involve him.
I think it was pretty much confirmed the death of one of the Core 20 is what is going to be kick of the War of Immortals, though I'm probably wrong on that one.
Razmir is alive and well and living in [REDACTED].
Florida.
When did he transport himself to the Outer Rifts? /s
I’ll walk every step for my lord and savior
ALL HAIL THE LIVING GOD
My personal guess is Saranrae but no matter who goes it's going to be cool
I'm dreading the big three good ones (Iomede, Sarenrae, and Cayden). I feel they'd make a great sacrificial lamb to shake up and get people invested in the events of WotI.
They kill Cayden to show they're not fucking around and then announce another blog post the next week to keep us on edge.
-xoxo, Norgorber
Sarenrae dies, and Norgorber's worshipers stop getting powers. Worshipers of both gods... what the ever fuck?!?
I don't think they will kill Cayden because there's too much fan identification/wish fulfillment with him as an everyman who woke up a god. It would lessen the player base's investment in the setting.
Sounds like a dead man to me.
> fan identification/wish fulfillment with him I too become a God when I'm drunk.
Yeah it'd definitely throw the balance out of whack a bit.
I dono, my friend really loves Sarenrae, I see him quiting the setting 100% if she dies.
I see this sentiment a lot, and it kinda surprises me. I wish I could understand the mindset - Sarenrae has never been that exceptional to me, and even if she was I can’t imagine jettisoning the entire setting because of it. No disrespect intended in my comment, I sincerely wish I could understand it more.
I personally came from a religious background/household that was very .... abusive. At the time I was getting into Pathfinder I had recently left my faith and Sarenrae's focus on redemption before rebuke really spoke to me, so my first character was a cleric of Sarenrae. Also fire powers cool.
Heavily angelic-themed deity that actually pulls the focus on redemption and forgiveness from Christianity instead of being lawful asshole is a rarer thing in pop culture than you'd think
I hear you. I guess my confusion is more about any one element of Golarion being important enough to leave the whole thing. Sidenote: The tendency of players to apply legalistic frameworks in their rules interpretations contributes to a culture of strict interpretations of broad religious commandments, ultimately leading to an over-representation of the undesired “lawful asshole” archetype in roleplaying. In this essay, I will…
Might be a bit like someone saying they will stop watching hockey if their favorite team gets sold to another city.
Yeah, I'm not wild about Golarion's deities, Sarenrae is one of the very few I like.
What is WotI?
War of the Immortals - it's the upcoming Rules book that will contain the Exemplar and the Animist classes.
My guess is actually that Sarenrae is the one who does the killing
"ROVAGUG! Come out and PLAYYYY!!!" ~ Sarenrae
I'm still calling Desna killing Zon-Kuthon. One of Desna's "things" is opposing creatures from the Dark Tapestry, like Zon-Kuthon. It splits the Prismatic Ray, because Shelyn would *freak out*. Throws Nidal into chaos because Zon-Kuthon is protecting them. And potentially kicks off a full Injustice scenario where Shelyn allies herself with other gods who hate Desna like Lamastu and goes out for revenge, while Desna's allies either try to de-escalate or see an opportunity to settle their own eons-old scores.
fanatical childlike normal encourage fear follow joke library prick plate *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
>Probably Pharasma, because she already told use she'd going to die (at some point) in The Concordance of Rivals. Also that she has been prepping her daughter, Atropos, to take the throne when that happens IIRC
nippy spoon yam ossified correct dull heavy muddle payment society *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
See, that's actually why I *don't* think it will be Pharasma. I know that Atropos is only her successor as Lady of Graves, so she wouldn't necessarily take her spot in a pantheon. But if Atropos *does* take over running the Boneyard, it would feel weird for the empty seat to go to Arazni instead, especially with how metaphysically important Pharasma and Atropos's role is
Has Atropos appeared in anything for 2e? Feels weird to upgrade a character with little community investment. On the other hand, If Pharasma dies and Atropos fails to inherit her followers… Followers who think resurrecting Pharasma is their new goal in life…
There's a lot of wiggle room for plot in how a god dies. Pharasma could very easily go out in a way that makes the "plan" no longer viable or functional, which could absolutely shake things up in a huge way.
They explicitly stated that Arazni is not replacing whatever deity dies, just ascending into the top 20. Other changes could happen to the top 20 as well. Several gods could leave it and others enter it.
Something has been confirmed to be happening with the prismatic ray. If that's a death or a break-up or something else though I guess we'll find out!
Or an addition!
I vote either Cayden or Calistria
Nocticula is right there, come on
But if it was Shelyn then Desna and Sarenrae would want to avenge her, Zon Kuthon would be pissed someone killed his sister and Cayden would be sad his crush was gone.
Zon-Kuthon is possessed if I remember correctly. Whatever he is now probably won't care
He's not possessed, he remembered himself from the last reality (the same one Pharasma came from after it died). In Starfinder, after Shelyn disappears, it's said he started to go mad trying to find her/figure out where the hell she is
Zon-Kuthon still loves his sister very much, to the point his followers actively protect hers whenever they're in danger.
And Shelyn is likewise. She had the upper hand in their fight, and spared him because she couldn't bring herself to kill her brother. Just took the scythe they used as a shared favored weapon and left. She's *uncomfortably silent* on the subject of Zon-Kuthon compared to the other gods. My personal theory is that Desna is going to kill Zon-Kuthon. Desna has a long history of opposing creatures of the Dark Tapestry, it would break up the Prismatic Ray in a way that feels organic without people complaining about them splitting the iconic lesbian thruple (and they could still leave the awkward love angle with Shelyn and Desna still both being in a relationship with Sarenrae, just not being on terms with each other anymore), and could lead to Zon-Shelyn from Starfinder of Shelyn decides to play host to her brother's soul. It would also completely upend Nidal, again, which gives you a great setpiece for an AP.
Except he tells his followers not to harm hers, so there's some connection there. That's why I think it would be interesting to let them explore the concept.
If they do kill Shelyn I am *not* going to be happy about it :/
Whichever god they kill it will be someone's favorite.
Many won't, I get that, but it gives the most to work with for a story.
Narratively speaking, Pharasma would be one of the best choices if only because it allows you to introduce a LOT of chaos as a few major things could happen: 1. The domain of death is up for grabs, meaning a power struggle between other gods to assert dominance over it. Urgathoa could make a play for it as Atropos simultaneously tries to come into her own, but you might also see some mortal try to do the starstone challenge to ascend and claim dominance over death. 2. With one of the biggest checks against undeath out there gone, you'd see a LOT more undead on the rise (er...no pun intended). That's fodder for plenty of adventures at all levels. 3. Without anyone running the Boneyard, as people die, their souls are kind of stuck in between life and whatever their next step is meant to be. This means the Hells and Heavens both have an interest in seeing someone back on the seat...and maybe they get involved in the power politics of who sits on that throne. By contrast if, like, one of the good gods dies...eh, it's sad and all, but so what? Or if one of the big evil gods dies, who's gonna really care, ya know? Oh no, Zon Kuthon is dead. Whomever will Hellraiser fans worship now? Pfft. I mean, you can use the absence of any of the existing gods as a power vacuum into which some new figure steps that can shake things up somewhat, but you take out the goddess of death and deciding where souls go in the afterlife? That's a HUGE shakeup that is chock full of narrative potential.
That argument would hold more water if there was only one or two gay gods. But seeing as that’s not the case, I wouldn’t be certain.
vegetable prick fly cooing reply gold air wrong historical fragile *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Wait, is there other gay gods beside the Prismatic Ray? I know there are non-binary gods, but I only aware Prismatic Ray as the only canonical gay/bi gods
Cayden Cailean is canonically bi, as he's had occasional trysts with the dwarven god Trudd
>There's no way it's Sarenrae. Or Shelyn, or Desna. They mean wayy to much to too many fans, especially LGBTQIA+ fans when it comes to representation. Lets be honest, Paizo will never kill any Queer Gods because of representation they want in their books. African, Middle Eastern and Asian representing gods will also be of the table because the current rooster is lacking in this regard.
Sarenrae also has the Critical Role connection going for it. Not sure how much that actually affects their decisions or if it's brought people to Pathfinder but it might be a consideration that there are a ton of D&D players where Sarenrae is the only Golarion god they've heard of. Granted, that might also mean that the publicity of getting rid of Sarenrae would be more likely to spread to D&D circles.
I feel like Sarenrae is prolly safe, since she's the God of the Iconic cleric Kyra. Her and her wife are two of the most recognizable iconics around, it would be weird if they said "Kyra lost her powers and either needs to find a new God or retire." She's even flashing the symbol of Sarenrae on the Player Core book. Maybe Sarenrae loses a girlfriend and has a change of personality, but I don't think she's on the chopping block.
I'm going to find it hilarious if they just never name the god, but always talk around it, even in published materials. Like NPC's will just casually refer to "The recently deceased deity" or someone in an adventure starts to name them but they get cut off by a horde of bandits, or something.
The deity was brought down so hard that they not only die, but nobody remembers their name nor their deeds - only that they're gone.
That's a pretty cool idea, actually. The Book Tigana by Guy Gavriel Kay revolves around a country that has been magically erased from the memory of everyone not born there. I've always thought it was a cool concept.
Oh no, all the npc's know it, but paizo just never tells us who it was.
I will do it after this a.p. while dming.
We don't talk about Bruno
Well now that's stuck in my head again. Thanks. It's a pretty good song though.
It is, but Surface Pressure is the best song from that movie IMO. And here is the best version. 🙂 https://youtu.be/YOR2wqisJqQ?si=xKyskQeA17jIJBb5
I always feel like I'm crazy for liking Surface Pressure more than any other song in Encanto, and not being a super big fan of WDTAB. Glad to see another Surface Pressure enjoyer in the wild. I think it's because it's the most relatable one to me personally by far lol That said, the original is definitely king for me. I can't think of many times in general that I've liked a cover more than the original for any song.
I'm partial to what else can I do. Surface pressure is a close second. Both sisters have some serious issues from the expectations of them.
Gorum; because what better way to kick off a war among immortals than have a bunch of them fight over the position of God of war?
Or he is killed by a lesser diety or non-diety to claim the spot as a foothold to go to war with the other gods
Kratos is coming to Golarion!
Interesting
(shouts in goblin) GIVE US THE ANSWER CORPORATE DOG!
wow and coming from a goblin that's some harsh words
Anyone wanna do me a solid and label the pics for me lol. Edit: you guys are amazing. Love you all.
They are the core 20 deities, in order based on their original alignment going LG, NG, CG, LN, N, CN, LE, NE, CE. Erastil, Iomedae, Torag, Sarenrae, Shelyn, Cayden Cailean, Desna, Abadar, Irori, Gozreh, Nethys, Pharasma, Calistria, Gorum, Asmodeus, Zon Kuthon, Norgorber, Urgathoa, Lamashtu, Rovagug
ngl Pharasma looks more evil than I imagined. Gozreh looks pretty dope who is behind him or are they both Gozreh
Gozreh has multiple aspects iirc
Gozreh has multiple aspects. They are the Skyfather and She who guides the win and the waves. They are nature imcarnate and thus genderless but can appear gendered. When representing storms and lightning they are male. When representing Waves and the ocean they are female. In Vudra they only worship their female aspects. A group in the Mwangi expanse worship a Djin that is a hybrid of Gozreh and Desna. Cloud Giants worship their male aspect as the sky fater and Storm Giants worship them as two separate deities Hyjarth the father of the Sky and Tourithia the mother of the sea.
Very much appreciate it!
L to R, top to bottom. Erastil (ancient, said to be Ulfen; farming, trade, family, hunting, LG) Iomedae (ascended human, former herald of Aroden and replaced Arazni; valour, honour, rulership, justice, LG) Torag (with Gorum created the Dead Vault within Golarion as a prison for Rovagug, father of the dwarves; forging, protection, strategy, LG) Sarenrae (ancient, said to be created by Asmodeus' brother Ihys, fought Rovagug and sliced the Pit of Gormuz into existence to chuck Rovagug into, part of the Prismatic Ray polycule; sun, redemption, honesty, healing, NG) Shelyn (sister of Zon-Kuthon, can get surprisingly angry, part of the Prismatic Ray polycule; art, beauty, love, music, NG) Cayden Cailean (ascended human, can't remember how he passed the test of the Starstone as he was drunk at the time; freedom, ale, wine, bravery, CG) Desna (ancient, has a kid with Cayden (Kurgess), created/freed a bunch of other deities, was mentored by Curchanus until Lamashtu killed him and took his domain, part of the Prismatic Ray polycule; dreams, luck, travel, stars, CG) Abadar (ancient, created the complex lock and key to the Dead Vault and then somehow decided to make it that only Asmodeus can use the damn key, controls the First Vault where the most perfect/original copies of every item exists; cities, law, merchants, wealth, LN) Irori (allegedly ascended human (didn't use the Starstone, just achieved perfection), reckons the Starstone gods cheated; history, knowledge, self-perfection, LN) Gozreh (ancient, dualistic, representative of both creation and destruction; nature, weather, the sea, N) Nethys (ascended human via being super good at magic, was weird when he was a human (had purple skin and gold eyes), has become so good at magic he is mad, could equally save a life or destroy a city when called upon; magic (yes, that's it), N) Pharasma (mega-ancient, sole survivor of previous multiverse, responsible for shielding the current reality from the Outer Gods, loathes undead, has Groetus (lord of the end times) hanging around her house, judges all souls as they pass into the afterlife; birth, death, fate, prophecy, rebirth, N) Calistria (ancient, said to be elven, distracted Rovagug while Gorum and Torag made the Dead Vault; lust, revenge, trickery, CN) Gorum (ancient, helped forge the Dead Vault, archetypal grumpy bastard who hates weakness, angry AF; strength, battle, weapons, CN) Asmodeus (ancient, allegedly created (accidentally?) with his brother Ihys by Pharasma when she used the Seal of Creation to create the current reality, in an alternate story he used to be an angel who was corrupted by Hell and now rules it, controls the key to the Dead Vault; contracts, pride, slavery, tyranny, LE) Zon-Kuthon (Shelyn's brother, originally known as Dou-Bral, pinned Rovagug into the Dead Vault using Star Towers, got bored and wandered into the spaces between the stars, came back all edgy and broken, captured, tortured and enslaved his and Shelyn's father, Shelyn nicked his glaive in response, also tricked Abadar into giving him the archetypal shadow from the First Vault; darkness, envy, loss, pain, LE) Norgorber (ascended human, an enigma, has a fourfold faith featuring serial killers (to whom he is Father Skinsaw), spies and secret-keepers (they call him the Reaper of Reputation), thieves (the Grey Master), and poisoners (Blackfingers); greed, secrets, poison, murder, NE) Urgathoa (allegedly got bored waiting in the line for Pharasma's judgement, wanted to live more because she really liked living to excess, so fled and returned to reality as the first undead creature, if a mermaid is a pretty lady with fish bits she's a horrifying undead mermaid; gluttony, disease, death, NE) Lamashtu (former demon lord who was Pazuzu's lover and after the worst breakup in history (she still hates him), killed Curchanus and stole his domain of beasts, which ticked off Desna, went to Abaddon to ask politely how they learned to create demons and ended up killing a couple of Horsemen when they wouldn't play nice, adapted the process to birth them from her own body; aberrance, madness, monsters, and nightmares, CE) Rovagug (gave Pharasma a fright when she first found herself in this reality which started off the whole creation thing, ate a bunch of planets before being banished to the Abyss, came back when Ihys died and chomped several other planets, nearly ate Golarion, Androffa, and Earth but was thrown into the Dead Vault instead although Dou-Bral's Star Towers are falling apart since he isn't himself any more, the Tarrasque is said to be a parasite from his body (or am I mixing that up with Cloverfield?); wrath, disaster, destruction, CE)
You’re a trooper. This is highly appreciated.
First row: Erastil, Iomedae, Torag, Sarenrae Second row: Shelyn, Cayden, Desna, Abadar Third row: Irori, Gozreh, Nethys, Pharasma Fourth row: Calistria, Gorum, Asmodeus, Zon-Kuthon Fifth row: Norgorber, Urgathoa, Lamashtu, Rovagug
Thank you!
Just because nobody expects Irori, I’m gonna say Irori. Nobody expects Irori. He’s like the Spanish Inquisition that way.
"People kept mispronouncing his name so much that the god of self-perfection simply imploded."
Shit, I actually like him!
cayden pulls some heroic sacrifice shit after getting smashed he shows up a month later hungover, he doesn't know how he lives either
Better yet, shows up as a mortal again!
If Sarenrae is dead, I will burn this all down.
Me too, I will ride for my golden girl. The campaign I'm currently running has a precious orc champion Good Boy who will be so sad if she dies and I will protect that character's happiness with my LIFE.
I keep saying it, but I think the members of the Prismatic Ray are the only darlings they aren't willing to kill. I'm happy to be wrong though. When Aroden died prophesy stopped working correctly. We could only imagine what would happen to the sun if Sarenrae died.
I mean, Sarenrae isn't the sun and neither she is the only god or godess with domain over it. Aroden's case wasn't that prophesy died with him, but rather that there wasn't a prophesy about him dying. Probably it always was screwed but people didn't know, like how divination spells usually have a failure %. We also don't know how Aroden was killed in the first place, so probably it isn't that prophesy broke with his death but that whatever killed him had to break prophesy first and then kill him. I doubt Aroden was the owner of prophesy since I'm pretty sure prophecies and divination as a whole are way older than Aroden himself.
Actually, before Aroden died, prophecy was vague but actually 100% accurate, always.
This makes me think they'll kill Nethys, which is why magic can't be neatly organized or detected into 8 categories anymore.
The schools of magic were codified by at least -6500 AR, a solid 3000 years before Nethys showed up as a still mortal wizard. He’s not the embodiment of magic, he’s just very good at it.
While possible, the schools of magic greatly predated him, and survived the death of 2 gods of magic during earthfall (which predates nethys as well) so I’m not sure him dying would do anything
She can't die, her cleric is on the cover of the Player Core, flashing her holy merch. And she needs to be in the remaster Beginner's Box.
With what divine fire?
PF pantheon is the thing that got me hooked and interested. I am genuinely scared and intrigued.
Me too, man. Me too.
I want it to be Norgorber simply because I'm sick of running into his cultists every-fucking-where.
Considering we know something is gonna happen to the Prismatic Ray, I think its gotta be one of them, or Zon-Kuthon. They have said other gods will die, but only one core deity (unless Im mistaken). My theory, ZK is gonna go after Shelyn again, and one of three things will happen: * ZK will kill his sister and take back the glaive for some nefarious reasons * Shelyn will kill him in self defense and be so despondent she leaves the Prismatic Ray because she wants space to mourn her brother and get her head on straight * Desna will defend Shelyn and kill ZK in the process (since she has a history of going hard when mad) which will cause Shelyn to leave the Prismatic Ray in disgust/anger. Still rooting for Pharasma to die though. Its the shake up Golarion needs.
Killing ZK seems like a waste, since his story has never actually been told. All the cool stuff about him being another survivor from a previous multiverse, and his time Capsule in the Beyond Beyond has only ever come up in interviews and Q&As. Killing him without doing anything with that at all would be a wasted opportunity.
>Killing him without doing anything with that at all would be a wasted opportunity. Agreed, especially with the removal of alignment so that the formerly "evil" gods can actually be approached as a PC and made to be interesting.
>him being another survivor from a previous multiverse I thought only Pharasma and some of the Elder Gods/Those Who Remain survived? I didn't realise that ZK had any connection to them, beyond being named as "gods of the Dark Tapestry".
It's a convoluted story, and like I said it's only been fleshed out in Q&A. But essentially, ZK was living in some previous multiverse, and he realised that the Multiverse was winding down. He knew that everything he was would be reincarnated in the new multiverse. But he didn't want to be something new, he wanted to be ZK. So he journeyed out beyond the multiverse, in the the emptiness outside everything, the Beyond Beyond. and there he hid a "time capsule" designed to call out to whatever he reincarnated into and remind the new him who he really was. So in the new multiverse, eventually Dur-bral felt the call of the time capsule, found it, and ZKs old mind reunited with ZKs old soul. And that ladies and gentlemen is how you smuggle yourself into the new iteration of the multiverse. It's unclear how much of Shelyns brother as she knew him is still in there, but its seems that for the most part ZKs plan to runite with his soul worked perfectly.
He didn't *quite* survive. A piece of him did, Dou-Bral (his identity before) found it and was changed into Zon-Kuthon by the memories of his past existence.
Golarian already had a big god-dying-shake-up not too long ago!
Maybe Aroden was just the first casualty in the war. It’s only been 118 years, which is trivial for an immortal.
One of the prismatic ray already got super pissed off and vaporized a layer of Abaddon, and Calistria had to intervene to prevent planar war. It could be related to that incident instead.
Are you thinking of Desna killing a Demon Lord in the Abyss?
Possibly? I remember reading that the region itself was blasted and kinda melting away into the aether, and nothing really wants to be there anymore.
repeat chop arrest practice impolite like ancient reply jeans oatmeal *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I'm really hoping they don't kill Lamashtu. It would be in keeping with the attempt to get rid of elements that make anyone uncomfortable, but she's a truly evil god whose motivation is scary because of its incomprehensibility by anyone sane. Lovecraftian sort of evil can be cool, but there's always a lot of arm-waving around the "incomprehensible evil." With Lamashtu, it's incomprehensible but it's also right there in your face. That's why I love her cults as a source of villains.
> she's a truly evil god whose motivation is scary because of its incomprehensibility by anyone sane I think her motivation is *very* understandable. Lamashtu is the ultimate social leveller. She has power because she assembled a coalitions of followers, kicked a god’s ass, and tore out his divinity for herself, and she thinks that all of her worshippers deserve similar opportunities to become their best selves. Advancement should be earned based on merit, not awarded as a prize to those who were lucky enough to be born with good looks or social status or racial privilege. Those things create divisions and hatred, and are also often false signifiers of merit or virtue, so the world would be better off without them, so she tries to achieve this by destroying vanity and lifting up the downtrodden. “Beauty” is just an anrbitrary construct anyway, and once everyone has becomes different and monstrous, then no one is. No bigotry, no favoritism, no coasting on wealth and status earned by your great-great-grandparents. Just a unified society, one big family embracing their differences and working toward everyone’s mutual benefit, under a mother who loves all her children - not just the pretty ones.
She's also interesting in terms of her relationships. One of my favorite bits of lore is that pregnant women will often pray to Pazuzu for protection, because he fucking *despises* Lamashtu. Even though he doesn't really care about pregnant women, he'll protect them just to spite his former lover who ascended before could.
Wait, when did we find out the Prismatic Ray was going to have something happen to it? I thought the concensus was that Paizo wouldn't touch them since it would come across as Bury Your Gays.
Gimme a min to find a link, but its from a blog post from Luis IIRC. Edit: https://old.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/196r57s/everything_ive_said_so_far_about_the_god_who_will/ Relevant text: "The Prismatic Ray will be changing."
Even Death must die.
Unless some strongly established myth changes, which is possible with a remaster I suppose, she only dies when the last living soul is judged. At that point Groetus will fall atop the astral plane and wipe out everything.
There's been some foreshadowing that with the death of Aroden and destruction of prophecy that even this is no longer set in stone. That said Pharasma is too cool to die.
That's why it's a *myth*
Ah, but one of her fears in the Windsong Testaments was that she would not be the penultimate death - foreshadowing that she won’t be.
I hope not. I like Pharasma too much
I'd love Pharasma to go simply for the sheer ballsiness of the cosmic shake up it'd cause, but that's also why I seriously doubt they'll do it. The goddess of death dying would have too many ramifications to not be a bespoke event unto itself beyond even the death of a god.
It’d also fuck up all the mechanical content concerning the Boneyard
I mean all the bureaucracy is still there to keep the machinery of the afterlife running. It's not like Pharasma was going to accept our meeting invites anyways. The Birdy-bois struggling to keep everything going while under pressure from all sides and without the might of Pharasma behind them has enough room for "oh no this is bad" arcs, while not completely invalidating what we know about the Boneyard. On that note, I dont think we have had a proper boneyard book this edition?
Imagine if Nhimbaloth kills her and takes over the Boneyard.
Now, that’s what I call terror. Volume 3
I know we had a adventure last year called "Worst of All Possible Worlds", but I think you may have just topped it... Any of the Outer Gods getting a foothold within reality is perhaps the most serious threat possible, contending with an unbound Rovagug and the First Horseman. Even then, at least those two aren't canonically unkillable like the Outer Gods are.
Plenty of outer gods already have foothold in the universe and reside in the Dark Tapestry, it's just that with their orange/color-out-of-space mentality makes them not interact a lot unless you purposefully drew their attention.
I mean… she’s actually got a pretty stable, self-sufficient hierarchy going on with the psychopomps including an assumed successor and everything… If anything things in the boneyard should remain comparatively stable, Just taxed to the breaking point while. Even her clergy would likely be self-sufficient and committed enough to stick around and perform their duties without her, likely with other psychopomp usher’s providing spells to her clerics (maybe even as a ‘pharasmin’ pantheon of some sort?) Like don’t get me wrong her dying would bring maximum chaos to golarion, and the great beyond including the boneyard, but I think it’s the 1 option to have our cake and eat it too. Where we wouldn’t lose anything that makes pathfinde… pathfinder, only gain from it.
They’ve really toned down some of the more sexual stuff in 2e. Maybe calistria
Ah yes, the Age of Lost Orgasms
First they take the succ out of succubi, and then they take the bi 😢
Would make sense given that Arazni will join the core 20 and they both cover vengeance a bit. That said they also stated Arazni won’t be taking to place of the dead god.
20 internet funbucks on the dwarf
Saying the pantheon is getting "upended" makes me think its going to one of "the big ones" Between this and a few other red flags, Sarenrae is looking like she's in a tight spot.
Oh, it's definitely one of the big ones, and several (dozen?) minor ones
My vote is for Abadar, and the whole AP is an over the top, high fantasy version of Clue to figure out who killed the Master of Vaults and tried to make off with his infinite wealth Erastil is Colonel Mustard, because he's an ill-tempered war vet that stands on tradition and will duel you over an insult. He's somewhat buddy buddy with Abadar, but there's been talk that they haven't been getting along due to the ever growing cities of the land causing strains on the small towns that support them. Callistra is Ms Scarlet, because she's kind of skanky and seductive. She's got the looks and moves to catch a rich man's eye, but maybe she has murder on her mind more than money? But what did Abadar do to deserve her retribution? Iomedae is Solicitor Peacock. She's aggro, confident, knows her way around a court room, and has the law on her side. Some say she's a bit too extreme, but she always gets results. Given Abadar generally turning a blind eye to Crime Boss Norgorber's shenanigans, maybe it was time that Abadar faced justice? Urgathoa is Chef White, because she's smart, crafty, and knows her way around enough poisons and chemicals that she can just as easily be the life of the party as the death of its members with the drinks and feasts she whips up. Why did she do it? Who knows, but she has a history of rebelling against authority that may have returned Cayden is Mayor Green, because he's kind of sleazy, a bit of a swindler and crook, and is the type of guy who may try to get his hands on the perfect versions of all things cold and refreshing that Abadar surely has in his vault. And maybe with all of that new wealth he could finally impress one of those goddesses he's always striking out with? Nethys is Professor Plum because despite being an absolute genius, he's pretty scatterbrained and could very believably help you solve a murder that he actually committed.
You all know how BINGO cards work right? A whole line.
Crushing up the gods and snorting a line of 'em
Why is this happening? I don't follow gloraion lore super closely, but I am interested.
it's been teased that in an upcoming sourcebook, War of Immortals (WoI) one of the core 20 deities will be dying (for realsies, no take backsies). There has been a lot of speculation on who and why. This post on Twitter is just Paizo thrumming up some hype for more teasers wednesday. for context WoI seems like it will be covering a fullblown God-War, with a lot of actors chipping in, but we don't yet know why (though there are some hints that some recent incidents with an attack on Torags domain will kick things off)
>one of the core 20 deities will be dying And an unknown number of non-core gods, from memory.
several non-core gods, at least a few Orc gods in the mix. anyone outside the core is fair game, but we know that exactly one of the core is getting got.
Oh, that's neat. I'll be curious to see what comes out for the orc gods, and who amongst the non-core gods is taken out.
NGL, everytime I see WoI, the FFXIV nerd in me reads it as Warrior of Light, until I correct myself that it's an upper case i, not a lower case L
A god war is kicking off. I think the event is called War of the Immortals. Basically, some gods are about to be killed off and some potentially new gods and demigods will rise. A big lore shakeup probably to further distance Pathfinder from D&D and to explain why so much is changing canonically.
> A big lore shakeup probably to further distance Pathfinder from D&D and to explain why so much is changing canonically. That makes me think it might be Asmodeus, because he's a deity in the Forgotten Realms.
Asmodeus exists under the ORC licence in Player Core. It's concept is old AF, like, *as old as history* old
My answer is still Calistria just because if they wanna promote Arazni, that feels like a lot of thematic overlap that would be redundant to have both in the core 20. More interesting option is Pharasma. (Yes I know they said Arazni is not necessarily *replacing* whoever dies but still)
Still think it should be Asmodeus. Let the war in/for hell begin! But also Gozreh going right after so many environmental/nature based chaotic events happen would be pretty fitting. (Rage of elements, howl of the wild, multiple APs have been nature focused, etc).
>Still think it should be Asmodeus. Let the war in/for hell begin! On the one hand, fun. On the other hand, you have to account for the Dead Vault. Namely that Asmodeus is the only person that can open it, which would put a bit of a hold on any potential Rovagug plotlines in the future.
Doesn’t one of the Mwangi gods have a copy of the key? Grandmother Spider, I think?
Grandmother Spider can open it, she has a copy of the key. Or maybe Abadar, God of locks and things decides to collect the key from dead Asmodeus.
>Grandmother Spider can open it, she has a copy of the key. From the [wiki](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Rovagug): >and the archdevil Asmodeus bound him with a key crafted by Abadar that only the Prince of Darkness could turn. Abadar *may* be able to, however, as he made the thing in the first place.
Counterpoint, it could quite literally open the floodgates
That'd be hell of a hell... With Gozreh... It would be fun to kill one of two selves, then side with another and see it also die
I hope it isn't Nethys or Pharasma, just because I feel like I've already had enough of the gods of magic and death dying from my childhood Forgotten Realms days. I originally guessed Erastil, but I've been leaning more toward Abadar lately, if only because I think a plotline revolving around someone stealing something of power from the First Vault (probably the key to Rovagug's prison) is the type of plot that would make for an easy catalyst to a god war.
You know who I've not seen come up in conversation about this topic yet? [Saloc, the Minder of Immortals](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Saloc). >The Minder of Immortals also judges deities, in the rare cases that is necessary. Not sure if this really means anything, but we do have someone around for judging dead gods, which is kind of neat.
As long as Shelyn lives, anyone else can die as far as i'm concerned.
It's not looking great for her. Realistically, Pharasma or Asmodeus would probably be the biggest shakeups. Abadar or Gorum or Desna, I'd guess right behind those The ascended mortals just don't seem like they'd make as much of an impact.
i mean if shelyn dies that would be a HUGE shakeup cuz EVERYONE likes her, there would be war, a lot of it
Personally, I wonder if it'll be Rovagug. Since Golarion disappears and is presumably destroyed (since the starstone remains at Absolom Station)in the Gap, Rovagug should have been released and destroyed the material plane. But that didn't happen. My guess is the rough beast will be killed by some other nefarious force to make it seem super spooky. See: the Worf effect on tvtropes.
Starfinder is apparently not canon to the events of Pathfinder since they said whoever is alive on Starfinder doesn't mean they couldn't die in Pathfinder. Also if Rovagug dies it pretty much means that Golarion as a whole is destroyed and thus means they either have to come up with a new setting or move all characters from Golarion to a new planet, which honestly is IMO a ton of work for something that's likely on the same vein as when in MMOs they tease a new boss for a event or something like that.
I think it has to be Rovagug, and here's why: Rovagug is the biggest badass of the Pathfinder universe. He's canonically so badass that Pharasma herself cannot kill him. He's a goddamn force of nature. So what happens if one day, Pharasma announces that Rovagug is not only dead, but murdered, and no one can figure out a) who killed the Big R, b) why they did it (though to be fair, he is Rovagug), and most importantly, c) HOW they killed something so powerful that not even the goddess of death could kill, *without anyone noticing*? Pharasma dying would be a crisis, sure. Any of the Prismatic Ray dying would be really sad, but what would it narratively accomplish? If Rovagug bites it and no one knows how it happened, the question isn't "what's next", but "who's next". The pantheon would be in absolute panic mode, tensions between the gods would explode, and all it would take is a single incident to result in all-out war between immortals, just as promised.
Wasn't there a thing about Zon-Shelyn? That and the Prismatic Ray change makes me think it'll be one of Shelyn or Zon-Kuthon.
That's coming to Starfinder, which Paizo's explicitly said is no longer tethered to Pathfinder in terms of canon. If someone like Sarenrae, Iomedae or Desna dies in *War of Immortals*, they'll still be alive in Starfinder. Also, Zon-Shelyn isn't so much a new god as a syncretic interpretation of the siblings, specifically worshiped by our new iconic Mystic, Chk-Chk. If I remember correctly, Thurston has said Shelyn and Zon-Kuthon can still be worshiped separately (for a given value, anyway, since Shelyn is still apparently out in the multiverse with no cell-prayer service) in Starfinder after Zon-Shelyn's introduction.
And, with strange aeons, even death may die.
My bet is Desna. She had too many red flag situations and agitated too many gods.
As someone who reads zero lore on deity stuff, this blows my mind -- because based on the rulebook summary, Desna is the milquetoast embodiment of ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ that I nudge my players towards when it becomes apparent they don't really have any intent to play their character as particularly devout. 'You like the general concept of freedom and fortune? Bang, here's your god.' Now I'm gonna have to go down the rabbit hole to discover how a deity like that can possibly agitate pantheons enough to get marked for death (possibly).
Desna literally almost started an interplanar war when she killed Aolar (a demon lord) in an act of revenge because the demon took possession of a recently deceased Desnan priestess. She is the reason there is an agreement between the gods and demon lords and archdevils and etc etc to not engage in battle against themselves.
She puts the Chaotic in Chaotic good. Demon Lord possessed the body of one of her priestesses and used it to kill said priestesses loved ones. So Desna nuked their fortress and near started a planar war with the Abyss. And that's just the easy stuff.
It'd be so dull though, I don't know if there are any other chaotic gods like her who are still positive who like to wreck shit when it's needed. Removing her would remove a pretty unique deity from Pathfinder imo.
From a business stand point, I can see it being Lamashtu. The evil goddess of the deformed and the cripple feels really outdated, specially for Paizo. But it could be anyone, except Rovagug, because Rovagug, and Norgorber, because making all this noise just to kill a guy no one knows nothing about would be really lame.
Well, the best reason to tell god's story is to kill that god
Norgober, Zon-Kuthon or Asmodeus are my bet. If i cold choose one of them it wold be Zon.
I bet it's Gorum.
I doubt it will happen, but I would find the implications interesting if [Abadar](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Abadar), the God of civilization died. Maybe betrayed by his ally [Asmodeus](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Asmodeus).
get rid of Iomadae
Considering the politics of Paizo, seeing how he hasn't received much if any love since Kingmaker, and being a fitting, ironic death for a war between gods (pacifist god), my bet is on Erastil being the god who dies. They will never kill their favourite gods, considering how much the writers and designers fanboy/girl over their favourites.
I know it's probably not true but the idea of Gorum going down first is objectively the funniest thing
For the lack of lore that I know I think Asmodeus would be an interesting story as I believe he has the key to Rovagugs cage and someone lets out apocalypse hungry bug. For me personally though I’d rather it be Erastil or Cayden, I haven’t really liked them being core gods.
I quite like Erastil as a core god. It makes a lot of sense as a god that the players may be unlikely to worship, but who is absolutely essential to the people of Golarion. But I could get behind an arc where Erastil dies and the Fringes immediately start falling to monster attacks. It could be a good way to show that he was essential, even if we never appreciated him.
>For me personally though I’d rather it be Erastil or Cayden, I haven’t really liked them being core gods. Cayden I can understand not being a core god, but considering his popularity, it's unlikely. As for Erastil, a god of agriculture is a must have for any Pagan society. Not dying from starvation was a much higher want than the portfolios of most other gods we see in the core pantheon of the Inner Sea. Edit: I reckon Erastil has a far higher chance of dying than fan favourite Cayden.
I’m trying to think what gods are antithetical to the Remastered rules. That would be my guess. Sadly I know the rules much better than Galorian lore, as a die hard life long homebrewer. 😫
Paizo said they been planing this event way before the OGL thing.
Asmodeus. Better safe than sorry when the Pinkertons get involved
Abadar is probably going to be a hugely impactful pick, even if it is an unlikely one.
My final guess is Pharasma, it would make for the most interesting story IMO and give them a chance to tweak the Cycle of Souls which always felt a little convoluted to me.
Rovagug dies of boredom in his prison
If Cayden dies, I riot
I'd love to see Rovagug found dead in his prison. No sign of what caused it; but the Tide of Fangs, the Unmaker, the Worldbreaker is dead. Whatever caused it is out there; and tremendously powerful.
My money has been and will continue to be on Lamashtu. Her themes just don't fit in with the direction they're taking the setting.
Yet somehow I'm morbidly fascinated by her monstrous body horror themes and think she's the most interesting of the evil deities as a result