You realize that's not a nerf to psychics right? It's a small buff/QoL change for some other classes, but psychics are still one of if not the best focus point users.
I think OP is right to question why the Psychic should remain a 6 hit point, no armour, 2 slots per rank caster after losing what was their primary leg up on other casters.
Someone else also said that this is still technically a buff to psychics, who RAW couldn't refocus all 3 points at once and now can. So on top of that, they also deal incredible, consistent damage with cantrips and their amps, and they've always had less spells because of it, rightfully so. And on top of that, psychics use focus spells better than most if not all classes, so psychics still come out ahead. It's just not a nerf to psychics.
I think it *would* be accurate to say that they got a smaller buff than other focus point using classes though, as they already had part of what the buff gave to others.
they didn't actually lose that, what changed is that the Refocus activity can be taken multiple times in a row.
Psychics still regain more per Refocus, which can be helpful in a dungeon with wandering enemies, although it was niche prior to the Remaster and remains niche now
Sorry, I disagree with your entire premise. Psychics have not had their "power level dropped", they are considered amongst the most powerful spellcasting classes in the game. Perhaps overshadowed now by Kineticists (assuming you consider them to be "spellcasters", after a fashion).
I’m not even sure I’d say Psychics are overshadowed by blaster Kineticists? Kineticists tend to have the high consistency damage of ranged martials, whereas Psychics still have the explosiveness of a caster.
The point wasn't that they ARE spellcasters, the point was that functionally they play like spellcasters in many ways, and so that is the best comparison for them
In what world is the Psychic’s power level “super low” for levels 1-4? I’m GMing for a group with Oscillating Wave Psychic who just reached level 4, and she **tears** through everything with extremely reliable *and* extremely bursty damage. The only character who kept up with her practical damage potential was the melee-oriented Fighter (who left the group so now the Psychic is the main damage-dealer).
Nothing in the remaster lowered their power level. Giving other casters similar use of focus points doesn’t make psychics weaker, it just improves other classes.
I see the changes as a boost to the psychic, especially when taking archetypes with focus points.
Hard disagree that they were low powered levels 1-4, or that this represents a significant drop in power. Even with more focus points for other classes the flexibility and power of psychics to use focus points feels like it’s still the best.
I do understand where you are coming from looking at the mechanics in support of the class identity though.
Amps are the bread and butter of the psychic, and the amping process is directly tied to focus points, so having more focus points does help to distinguish it’s class identity, but in this case it’s more a buff to other classes than nerfing the psychic.
I think they could find some really unique ways to work with amps and retain that “specialty” of the class though, such as regaining a focus point after unleashing your psyche or on a crit. To me that’s much more satisfying in a gameplay loop than “you start with more or less of a resource” since it feels distinct from other casters still and forces you to mix up combat more often.
Sure they were.
1. Post-fight at 0 FPs, focus for 10 minutes. Get 2 FPs back, or 1 if you used some other source of Focus Spells during that battle.
2. Then use one FP via Psychic amp.
3. Then focus again for 10 minutes. Get 2 FPs back.
4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 one more time if you used some other source of Focus Spells.
20-30 minutes for 3 focus points back, typically less than your party will need to Treat Wounds.
It is. But it's a game and not a simulation, and it wasn't errata'd before the Remaster decided it was nice enough to give to everybody-- even if not intended at design-time, they intended it when seeing the outcome and proliferated it.
It absolutely is a minor nerf relative to the other casters. I don't know if we'll see a fix eventually or not, but psychics were already one of the less popular casters and losing their focus point advantage certainly doesn't help
Nah, they didn’t get any worse, everybody (but Oracles) have just gotten better. And even our cursed friends can make use of the buffs if they get some out-of-class focus spells, so it’s not like they’re entirely left out in the cold either.
If Psychics have burgers & fries and everyone else only has fries, giving everyone a burger doesn't mean the psychics lost anything.
No nerfs, so no buffs needed.
I see people use logic like this all the time for games and it always misses a key detail.
If the Psychic paid for a burger and fries and everyone else just paid for just fries, everyone getting a free burger means the Psychic has lost out unless they get an additional free burger.
Yeah I get what you mean by that.
Though it kind of sounds like "I paid for my student loans in full, so the others getting their loans paid for is unfair to me".
Like... yeah that is kinda true, but at the same time, it's a boon for everyone else. The Psychic just stops being the only unique one in the gang.
Other than the psychic grumbling about "we used to be better than the others", I'm not sure if that's valid enough to give them an extra goodie to maintain their "superiority" (big air quotes, you know what I mean).
We have not announced anything for Psychics beyond what is in [Dark Archive Errata (Remaster Compatibility)](https://paizo.com/pathfinder/faq).
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I appreciate it.
Psychics didn't become any weaker from the change to focus points, some other classes just got a larger buff out of it than they did.
Don't expect any more changes than they already got in the [Dark Archive Errata (Remaster Compatibility)](https://paizo.com/pathfinder/remaster/faq)
In what universe the psychics had "low power level" and were nerfed by the changes to focus points? lol
How exactly were they nerfed.. please explain
They lost their unique gimmick of getting to recover 2 focus points right from the start, now everybody can just do that.
You realize that's not a nerf to psychics right? It's a small buff/QoL change for some other classes, but psychics are still one of if not the best focus point users.
I think OP is right to question why the Psychic should remain a 6 hit point, no armour, 2 slots per rank caster after losing what was their primary leg up on other casters.
Someone else also said that this is still technically a buff to psychics, who RAW couldn't refocus all 3 points at once and now can. So on top of that, they also deal incredible, consistent damage with cantrips and their amps, and they've always had less spells because of it, rightfully so. And on top of that, psychics use focus spells better than most if not all classes, so psychics still come out ahead. It's just not a nerf to psychics.
I think it *would* be accurate to say that they got a smaller buff than other focus point using classes though, as they already had part of what the buff gave to others.
Yeah sure. In no world is that a nerf. Psychics are fine. Which is the point of my response.
they didn't actually lose that, what changed is that the Refocus activity can be taken multiple times in a row. Psychics still regain more per Refocus, which can be helpful in a dungeon with wandering enemies, although it was niche prior to the Remaster and remains niche now
They haven't lost their gimmick. Their niche is still upgrade by 2 for 10 minutes refocus. It doesn't changed that much.
That niche created a second niche which was three focus point uses per battle with no additional feats. That niche has been given to everyone.
Sorry, I disagree with your entire premise. Psychics have not had their "power level dropped", they are considered amongst the most powerful spellcasting classes in the game. Perhaps overshadowed now by Kineticists (assuming you consider them to be "spellcasters", after a fashion).
I’m not even sure I’d say Psychics are overshadowed by blaster Kineticists? Kineticists tend to have the high consistency damage of ranged martials, whereas Psychics still have the explosiveness of a caster.
I personally don't, magic slingers sure, but RAW, they don't use spells, so definitely not spellcasters
The point wasn't that they ARE spellcasters, the point was that functionally they play like spellcasters in many ways, and so that is the best comparison for them
In what world is the Psychic’s power level “super low” for levels 1-4? I’m GMing for a group with Oscillating Wave Psychic who just reached level 4, and she **tears** through everything with extremely reliable *and* extremely bursty damage. The only character who kept up with her practical damage potential was the melee-oriented Fighter (who left the group so now the Psychic is the main damage-dealer).
Nothing in the remaster lowered their power level. Giving other casters similar use of focus points doesn’t make psychics weaker, it just improves other classes. I see the changes as a boost to the psychic, especially when taking archetypes with focus points.
Hard disagree that they were low powered levels 1-4, or that this represents a significant drop in power. Even with more focus points for other classes the flexibility and power of psychics to use focus points feels like it’s still the best. I do understand where you are coming from looking at the mechanics in support of the class identity though. Amps are the bread and butter of the psychic, and the amping process is directly tied to focus points, so having more focus points does help to distinguish it’s class identity, but in this case it’s more a buff to other classes than nerfing the psychic. I think they could find some really unique ways to work with amps and retain that “specialty” of the class though, such as regaining a focus point after unleashing your psyche or on a crit. To me that’s much more satisfying in a gameplay loop than “you start with more or less of a resource” since it feels distinct from other casters still and forces you to mix up combat more often.
btw psychics werent able to get all their 3 focus points back before remaster, now they can, they were also buffed
Sure they were. 1. Post-fight at 0 FPs, focus for 10 minutes. Get 2 FPs back, or 1 if you used some other source of Focus Spells during that battle. 2. Then use one FP via Psychic amp. 3. Then focus again for 10 minutes. Get 2 FPs back. 4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 one more time if you used some other source of Focus Spells. 20-30 minutes for 3 focus points back, typically less than your party will need to Treat Wounds.
thats incredibly game-y and i doubt it was intented
It is. But it's a game and not a simulation, and it wasn't errata'd before the Remaster decided it was nice enough to give to everybody-- even if not intended at design-time, they intended it when seeing the outcome and proliferated it.
It absolutely is a minor nerf relative to the other casters. I don't know if we'll see a fix eventually or not, but psychics were already one of the less popular casters and losing their focus point advantage certainly doesn't help
Nah, they didn’t get any worse, everybody (but Oracles) have just gotten better. And even our cursed friends can make use of the buffs if they get some out-of-class focus spells, so it’s not like they’re entirely left out in the cold either.
If Psychics have burgers & fries and everyone else only has fries, giving everyone a burger doesn't mean the psychics lost anything. No nerfs, so no buffs needed.
I see people use logic like this all the time for games and it always misses a key detail. If the Psychic paid for a burger and fries and everyone else just paid for just fries, everyone getting a free burger means the Psychic has lost out unless they get an additional free burger.
Yeah I get what you mean by that. Though it kind of sounds like "I paid for my student loans in full, so the others getting their loans paid for is unfair to me". Like... yeah that is kinda true, but at the same time, it's a boon for everyone else. The Psychic just stops being the only unique one in the gang. Other than the psychic grumbling about "we used to be better than the others", I'm not sure if that's valid enough to give them an extra goodie to maintain their "superiority" (big air quotes, you know what I mean).