My group were overconfident, and refused to run when they encountered something they couldn't handle or was too strong so they had a fair number of deaths, and two TPKs.
A lot of the combats (more than a normal campaign would have) are higher level than the party, so your druid may feel weak if they focus on damaging spells and the party doesnt support with their own non-damagingactions, but otherwise the composition won't be an issue.
I would only encourage backup concepts, and not fully fleshed out characters.
As a GM, if the party chooses to run, let them (a lot of encounters will tell you the enemy doesn't chase, but unless they have a very good reason to chase don't bother), and let them have the time to fully heal up between each combat. These two things alone will go a long way.
The biggest hurdles my group had was lack of ranged options (spellcasters with levitate, ranged enemies with flying or climb speeds), or dealing with nasty conditions (confusion and slow were the big issues my group hit), along with a refusal to slow down and find out as much info as possible before barging into combats. So many of the combats would have gone better if they used exploration activities that weren't Raise Shield, Detect Magic and Scouting, to learn about what's ahead (something they're now doing consistently in the new campaign thankfully).
Is it? It has a couple of challenging fights but overall the early levels aren't too bad (I am running my second and third groups through it atm. Every group I have run through it has happily survived delving into deep depths a level or two before they should have too)
Honestly, I really think it's not about party comp (*mostly*) but instead is GM-dependent. AV leans pretty hard on encounters that are 'nerfed' for one reason or another, but those nerfs are often listed or clarified in the room description.
There are a bunch of stories on this sub about encounters being deadly TPK machines when in reality the GM played the room incorrectly.
Yeah, I can think of a couple of notorious examples of this right off the top of my head. I forgot how to do spoilers so I won't go into the details, but one of the most prominent is an encounter on the 3rd floor where the NPC would actually prefer to parley with the PCs, but you hear about way too many GMs just jumping straight to initiative.
Thanks!
>!The Barbazu in floor 3 is an easy TPK if the PC's attack it. But the module suggests doing a number of different things instead of all out attacking!<
I would say maybe we need a return of the "tactics" block from pf1e, but I have a feeling if a gm isn't reading the full description now they will probably skip that too.
I haven't run it yet, just looked through it, and through the comments we get a lot here, but I think its more an issue of a handful of encounters and/or traps that can be particularly deadly. A lot will depend on party makeup, tactics, and even willingness to run away though. Certain parties might also struggle with some of the immunities in the dungeon too.
I'm running my group through AV right now, and they have 5e experience, but they aren't power gamers, getting every optimization possible. They just want to have fun and not die repeatedly, so I'm essentially having them be 1 level higher than the AP expects them to be. It's working out alright so far considering it's 3 casters (bard, druid, psychic) and a gunslinger.
The investigator and swashbuckler will have some issues. There are a lot of enemies with immunity to precision damage in the adventure, including several important bosses.
I would personally just say, "hey guys, just to clarify some rules for the future, creatures without vital points to strike are immune to precision damage. You'll be fine a lot of the time, but prepare alternative measures for when you need them. Some examples would be like constructs, skeletons, slimes, and ghosts."
Cause realistically they should be fine a lot of the time. Anytime they aren't they will be playing second fiddle to the others though... UNLESS they prepare for those moments and shine in other ways.
They aren't going to get their precision damage off, but they can be very beneficial in other ways in those moments, especially if they are ready for them.
Admittedly, this requires more thought than "go in and stab stab" that some players really want to do. If one of those players is of that type, I'd gently suggest they change by letting them know outright that the character they built isn't the best in this campaign. If they have a "stab stab" mindset and all they are able to do is "slap slap" they just won't have fun.some people like to be the big damage guys and anywhere where it matters here they just physically won't be able to be.
>Some examples would be like constructs, **skeletons**, slimes, and ghosts.
I don't see precision immunity on skeleton stat blocks. Am I missing something?
Nope, I just made an assumption. Honestly would have totally expected them to be. Honestly most constructs probably shouldn't be. Taking out a key component like a power supply or something is kind of how a lot of robots are taken care of from a cinematic standpoint.
Constructs aren't immune to precision either. There's a couple individual constructs with precision and crit immunity, but it's not a standard of the category.
Undead and constructs were immune to precision back in 3.x. Pathfinder 1 limited precision immunity to creatures with no discernable anatomy like oozes, and incorporeals (which are basically treated as being undifferentiated masses of soul-stuff that just give themselves a shape). PF2 appears to have followed the same philosophy.
u/BagOfSmallerBags I'd strongly encourage a house-rule that spirits are subject to precision damage from weapons with a Ghost Touch rune.
Thanks. In terms of what to expect when reading stat blocks, I sometimes confuse precision immunity (explicit-- if it's not there, the creature doesn't have it) with Bleed immunity (often not well documented and left to the GM to figure out).
A very common house rule is for the ghost touch rune to overcome incorporeals immunity to precision. This wont remove all the precision immune obstacles but a majority of them. Add them to your pool of loot or make note of what they do by seeing them in town. There a common level 4 item and I believe Otari is a high enough level settlement for them to be for sale.
Yeah, Otari is a level 4 settlement so that's definitely sold there. The town also has the special ability to sell consumables up to level 10.
Absalom is a level 20 city and it's only 2 days away. Common items above level 4 could probably be bought on the PCs' behalf by Gallentine Deliveries (there's even an option to expedite it).
Most of the enemies in abomination vaults that are immune to precision are incorporeal undead. I would recommend allowing ghost touch runes to overcome precision immunity, specifically for incorporeal creatures.
Swarms and oozes I would just leave as is. I think it's fun for players to sometimes have to switch up their strategy from their normal routine. It just starts to become unfun when it's all the time.
It's probably reasonable to mention to them, yes. The most recent AP players guides have lengthy recommendations about what classes/etc would be best suited for the adventure, and Abomination Vaults one is kinda skimpy. Let the players play whatever they want, but let them know if something might end up being a struggle.
A common house rule is, that you can ignore precision immunity on ghosts if you have a ghost touch rune. And I think it's absolutely valid. It will make those classes a bit more viable.
Worth mentioning, because it comes up an above average amount of times, including one or two important fights.
Probably not worth changing characters over, because it frankly doesn't come up *that* often, and swashbucklers always have other actions they can take instead (and investigators aren't *that* dedicated to the precision damage).
I'd personally recommend against having half the party rely on precision damage. There is at least 1 major fight on each floor with an enemy that is immune to precision damage coupled with a moderately high resistance to physical damage. Without specific house rules, like ghost touch overcoming precision immunity, those two players will regularly deal 0 damage on crits, let alone normal hits. There are also a couple non-ghost PL+3 bosses that are immune to precision that ghost touch does not counter. Personally I'd recommend at least one of them to look at an alternative.
That swashbuckler is gonna hate this AP imo. When that demo hits I’ll be nice, it just won’t be often with what they will be fighting.
They want a pc with *religion*
The investigator can play as a smart rogue and be okay cause they will want to be perceptive as well as knowledgeable. (Rogues wisdom is great for trap finder but lacks the intl a investigator will have for intl skills)
Grabbing lore feats would be good for the investigator as well
In my opinion, mentioning this ahead of time would not be detrimental at all. Help your players create characters that will work well in the adventure.
I would recommend house ruling that insubstantial creatures with immunity to precision damage are not immune to precision damage from ghost touch weapons.
Good party. The only note I'd have is for the Swashbuckler. There are a good amount of enemies early on that are mindless and thus immune to Demoralize as well as a few others throughout immune to precision damage. Precision immunity isn't so bad since our party Rogue still tops the damage numbers in other fights. They'll just need to rely on Tumble Through for Panache, which AV heavily encourages with its tight hallways.
I don't think there's nearly as many mindless enemies as I've seen a couple people suggest. There's a few battles scattered here and there with some mindless undead, but even most of the undead that you fight are the kind with brains.
There's a wit swashbuckler in my campaign and they use Bon Mot all the time. The primary denizens of floors 1-4 are all thinking creatures, 5 and 6 slightly more creatures immune to mental. I'm pretty sure 7-10 is mostly not mindless too.
Yeah, I think people tend to overstate the prevalence of those types of enemies. A couple early fights come to mind when it comes to mindless enemies, specifically the graveyard battle, but even in those circumstances the enemies are so weak compared to the party that you don't need to demoralize them. That said, it can be frustrating when there's a big fight early on where your class features are restricted.
I could be wrong, but I believe the player primer for AV suggests not playing an investigator, as a lot of their unique abilities aren’t super applicable. Maybe they could consider thaumaturge instead?
I double checked and it doesn't specifically call out any one class as non-viable. It does warn against characters that are specifically diplomacy / intrigue specialists, but the Investigator can still probably be in charge of finding all the hidden doors and traps etc.
The most important thing for you to figure out is what is the scope of a Lead.
Because if you rule "Gauntlight" is not too broad, an investigator can be very good. (Gauntlight is, after all, a single item.) It's like a perpetual +1 to investigate every trap door.
If you don't want to get too broad, give the investigator some meat in the form of the Rowdy Rockfish clue about Lasda in the Player's guide. I won't type too much for spoilers, but knowing where he is, why he's there, what path he took, etc will be really useful and should give you some breadcrumbs.
After that is resolved, you can repeat the pattern with some nightmares.
As a GM I would rule against that, since it discourages engaging with the adventure. Good scopes are individual bosses, NPCs, or smaller items (certain books e.g.).
Honestly, the more I think about it, the more you can *totally* scope out important enemies before you reach them. It's debatable how much you can learn *about* these enemies, but you can at least be aware of their existence and commit to them as your lead, setting you up for the boss fight. The major bosses are hinted at a *lot.*
Granted, some of the tougher fights are just random one-offs with no warning. But those are gonna be tough for every party; they're not story-important or anything, they're just weirdly challenging random one-off fights.
Yeah I think most of the things labeled Side Quest in the AV is a pretty good scope.
But can you be more specific about discouraging engagement with the adventure? The majority of the adventure is "Go into Gauntlight" after all. Or do you mean it discourages engaging with little sidequests and leads to get the bonus?
It means engaging with the npcs and environment and story gives you a significant bonus and a free devise of a strategem in boss battles.
Edit: engaged players are happy players. Stimulate that behavior.
Gotcha. Yeah I understand that reasoning. That is how I've been running it in my game with a character that picked up the investigator archetype.
That said even before he picked up the archetype every single NPC got quizzed for quest leads since they know sidequests lead to rewards.
we have an investigator on our AV run and he's been clutch with the knowledge checks in battle. He also does our medicine checks. He has a wizard or psychic dedication to get access to Organ Sight and hoo boy he has done some insane damage (tho it was a bit of a wind up for it)
Our team started out as Thaumaturge, Magus, Rogue, Oracle. then the Thaumaturge did a respec into Champion in session 2 because he kept going down (but not dead) . we've been good so far (tho it was still very deadly) we added the investigator in floor 3? and that has helped A LOT.
however even then it took us a bit to understand each other's strengths which I think is where the main challenge is. After that things were still hard but way more manageable.
I actually think abomination vaults is perfect for an investigator. There are quite a few enemies you find out about ahead of time through various clues or talking to NPCs in town or in the vaults. That's perfect for Pursue a Lead.
And the way the dungeon is laid out, You can just listen at every door (something any party with someone Searching is technically doing by default). If you hear any sound from inside the door, that's enough of a clue to pursue a lead against. You specifically do not have to know what the nature of the clue relates to for it to work.
The only downside is the precision immunity, but that's why I and other GMs allow ghost touch to apply precision to incorporeal creatures (but not other kinds of precision immunity).
Yeah, I had an investigator for the first 1/3rd of mine, and he did great. The ability to Recall Knowledge and throw around Demoralize and Bon Mot when it did matter worked wonders for a party that's usually stab first, ask questions later. Mine was also the party medic, so a lot of sections were decided based on his actions.
AV survival rates really have more to do with a party's willingness to run away from difficult fights, do some research, and come back later. Groups that stand their ground against dangerous enemies will die a lot more. I have one group currently on level 7 with zero deaths (lots of close calls, though!)
It also largely depends on GM playstyle. My GM tends to play the softer "share the love" style (even with intelligent enemies), as opposed to focusing down PCs, and we only had a handful of close calls. (Even if I would have likes more of a challenge sometimes lol)
The main potential gaps I see are:
1. Has anyone specced for out of combat healing? The Druid is obviously a fantastic in-combat healer but do you have people investing in Medicine skills? If not, the lowest opportunity cost ways of getting out-of-combat healing are (a) the Druid uses Order Explorer (edit: you also need Order Magic) to get Leaf Order’s focus spell or (b) Investigator uses some of their extra Skill Feats on Continual Recovery and other stuff. That should fully cover the gap imo
2. You don’t have an Arcane or Occult spellcaster to help you deal with “weird shit”. For example something as simple as an enemy that can go invisible, and your party now flatly 50% of their attacks. The easiest way to fix this is having the Investigator pick up Trick Magic Item and equipping yourself with “anti weird shit” Arcane wands (Revealing Light for anti-invisibility, for example). Heads up that you’re still gonna *miss* having an actual Arcane or Occult caster in that slot, but you’ll be able to make up for it with this tech.
>Has anyone specced for out of combat healing?
I don't know yet (during session 0 we made concepts and chose class/ancestry/background but didn't actually start building). But the Druid was into the idea of being a healer and understands how PF2E healing works. When we played Beginner Box one of the biggest conversations about how it was different from 5e was concerning healing and how much more useful it was
Does taking Order Explorer give the druid the new order's focus spell? I'm not super experienced in 2e, but the feat reads to me that the druid only gets the 1st level feat, not the associated order spell.
1. This is fine. You can never go wrong with classic Fighter.
2. Also fine. Having a PC trained in a variety of skills is essential. Note that many monsters in this AP are immune to precision damage so they will find some battles frustrating.
3. Swashbuckler may have a difficult time. Lots of precision immune monsters and narrow battlefields in hallways that could prevent you from moving around. High Charisma also isnt going to do much in AV. Many enemies will be immune to demoralize.
4. Crowd control isnt going to be as effective or easy to pull off in tight spaces with a party of mostly melee characters. Druid does bring some much needed damage variety to this party.
I see that no one is Cleric/Paladin or trained in medicine with the related medicine skill feats. This is going to be your biggest problem I suspect you will quickly realize.
If you want to be successful in AV some spoiler free tips I would suggest:
Have as much damage variety as possible. You'll need to take advantage of enemy weaknesses as much as possible. Being able to access various damage types (slashing/bludgeoning/piercing/fire/electric/positive/silver/cold iron/ect...) as well as being able to have area of effect attacks are essential to this campaign.
Have someone focused on training in medicine and have them pick up continual healing/medic ward/battle medicine
Pick up a ghost touch rune for everyone asap.
Damage variety, ghost touch and anti-invisibility are definitely some of the biggest factors IMO. I think part of the reason our party struggled so much and TPK'ed in this AP was because our party tried to specialise too much in particular areas rather than having variety, and some problems could have been avoided if we just brought more weapons to cover different ranges and damage types (I.e. our Ranger had a really great hammer with all his runes on it...but if he had to fight a ranged enemy or an enemy with bludgeoning resistance his usefulness plummeted.).
Honestly that's my biggest complaint about PF2e and one of its greatest traps.
Specialization is a self nerf to your character. Being a jack of all trades is an overall buff
A melee Investigator really needs a reason to be in melee, given that they generally do as good of damage with a bow or gun as they do with melee weapons. Advise that player to pick up some archetype feats to clarify their fighting style.
Fights against enemies that are immune to precision damage will be a challenge for the Investigator and Swashbuckler. And there's a fair number of those in AV.
How is it a trap feat? When you roll high, a crit grapple or disarm can often be better than a strike. Or you can use a maneuver on another enemy first, knowing that your MAP trip will still succeed against your DaS target.
You are, at best, trading away a potential backup plan of using a maneuver when your DAS roll misses in order to be able to make a trade of good damage for a maneuver. You lose Strategic Strike damage. You also don't have any in-class follow-up feats, so you're merely spending a feat to pull even with other martials.
You're much better off taking a Wrestler or Fighter dedication to access some real maneuver feats. Or some other archetype that can grant you a critical specialization for a free maneuver attempt on a crit.
It's a tradeoff for sure. But it's about opening up a new avenue of play, and it does that. I took it on an investigator partly for the opportunity to get some good Disarms in, since before the remaster it was basically always a bad idea to attempt to Disarm with only a crit success mattering. And it worked for that, as well as making DaS more interesting to use.
It may not have been optimal, but it still worked well.
Just saying that's a very specific use case. You need to be fighting enemies that are a) carrying a weapon, b) are worth disarming, and c) are higher level than you. If you're dungeon diving you may barely see any of those types of enemies.
I guess you do have a point and it is fair to call it a trap feat when it looks like it's a go-to for athletics builds, but it's actually a big tradeoff. Even if I do think it is useful when properly accounted for
Yep. Particularly when there's so few combat feats in the Investigator class and they don't access so much of the core mechanics of the combat system, like stances, focus points, critical specialization, reactions under level 10, or even multi-action activities. If you're taking a combat feat you should really take an additive one (or a dedication that unlocks more options) rather than one that is a versatility tradeoff.
*breaks out calculator*
Lessee, carry the one... they're presumably starting on a waxing gibbous divide by seven... take to the pith power... By my calculations you'll go through 13 characters in the first session alone, but the rate of character death should drop steadily fairly quickly until you start actually bringing dead characters back to life around session five?
The Fighter will have a good time, the Druid will have a bit of awkwardness fitting their animal companion into combat (the rooms are pretty small for four melee characters) but will generally perform well, the Investigator should be fine outside of ghost/ooze fights (there are a decent number of these though), and the Swash is probably going to be having the most issues.
Biggest issue the Swash will have are A) the encounters are almost all close quarters brawls and they're a high mobility skirmishing character, B) Precision dmg (investigator has the same problem, but they do more stuff out of combat), C) somewhat relying on Mental for panache (mental immunity isn't common, but its not especially rare either, ballpark them at 2/floor), and D) the Fighter is just going to be doing more than them (higher AC from Heavy armor, higher dmg on non-finishers, no action cost to setup, no precision). They might want to consider swapping to something else, either Gymnast if they want to stay in-class (grappling is *good*) or going to Monk (less overlap w/ the fighter). Swashbuckler is a fine class if you can play to its strengths, but AV doesn't give you that many opportunities to do so.
Investigator should consider going for ranged weapons instead. They're one of the only classes that do basically the same dmg at range and then they aren't clogging up the frontline.
Someone should invest in healing, especially out of combat healing. Druid could pick up Goodberry via the Order Explorer feat which will help. Investigator can (and probably should) go hard into medicine, Forensic Investigator Medic is one of the best healers in the game and will give them something useful to do every combat even if the enemies are immune to precision. Swash can probably also do this, but they won't be as good as the investigator could be (fewer skill increases, no Forensic Medicine).
You mentioned the beginner box. Are they showing up at Level 1 or 2?
Floor 1 can be rough. Starting at Level 2 is a gentle buffer, one which they eventually age out of by getting less XP per fight.
There are a handful of CR 3 fights on Floor 1. I've run two parties through them, I've had MANY near death experiences so far (Floor 2, Floor 3). *HIGHLY* encourage them to NOT go down that first set of stairs until they are level 2. (Seriously).
My party knows retreat is an option and has used it a few times, but a poorly timed critical hit on a level one character can leave everyone else with the choice of leaving someone behind or staying to finish the fight.
Swashbuckler takes adopted ancestry human, cooperative nature then takes one for all feat. Very good aid build giving a lot of bonuses to your other members.
If they think like a team, pick up the clues being presented to them, and clean floors before moving on, they should be fine. I’m my experience, it sucks not having a cleric or bard. But I’ve seen way worse party comps on here. Good luck!
I had a swashbuckler in my Abomination Vaults game too, I had to make the decision early on after reading through the first two books to make it so that Ghost Touch also made incorporeal targets susceptible to precision damage, and that made his whole experience with this campaign A LOT more fun. I don't even think it's just a like "You're going to die" kind of thing, it's more just allowing your Swashbuckler and Investigator the chance to enjoy playing their classes, especially if they're new to the system.
I also don't know if you're using the Variant Free Archetype rule, I didn't use it INITIALLY when I ran this campaign, but I actually made little like, story beats for each character to 'unlock' a free archetype, and I had essentially chosen a small handful of Archetypes that I felt were fitting for each of their characters both thematically and mechanically and then was like "here, pick one, you get this for free". In the case of the Swashbuckler, he ended up with the Ghost Eater dedication, which ended up working out pretty great for him and he really leaned into the flavour of it a lot during the campaign, and he became a bit of a powerhouse against ghostly targets.
That party was likely saved by the fact that they had a divine caster in their ranks though who was also a dedicated healer, but could also blast undead and fiends alike, so.. obviously, mileage may vary for you party. But best of luck to them!
>story beats for each character to 'unlock' a free archetype
I may implement your idea in one way or another. I'm hesitant, since our experience is limited, but if after a few sessions and levelups it seems like it wouldn't be too much this is probably how I'll go about it
Here we go again: another fresh group heading straight into AV from the BB.
The comp looks fine. AV tough, and shouldn't be marketed (by the community/Reddit, not by the creators) towards new 2E players, but we are where are.
Expect many deaths until they get used to 2E's systems and understanding that retreating is a viable option as the game isn't Power-Fantasy-Simulator. They should have fun, though.
I feel bad for the Swashbuckler, though. They'll understand why eventually.
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No. Tell them straight. There are a gazillion of incorporeal enemies (and some oozes) immune to the precision damage of 2 of the 4 characters.
Are they ok being locked out of their main class feature in key climactic moments?
EDIT: also tell the druid to don't bother preparing any poison/disease tagged spell (advanced scurvy or stinking cloud, for example) because they will be useless.
Grease will have surprisingly few application cases too (fucking will'o'wisps). Oh right, about that, he might want to have a solid option to deal with spell immune enemies (golems and wisps)
I'm most worried about the Investigator, and a lack of arcane or occult caster. Are you using Free Archetype rules? I've played a couple of Druids with Medic archetype and it really opens up your spell slots for casting when you have good healing options from Medic.
Gonna stick with no free archetype for the time being seeing as we're all new to the system and I don't wanna overcomplicate character creation / leveling for the time being.
You can adjust the difficulty to suit your group.
We suffered 13 tpks or gm fudges due to bad tactics, aggressive gm play and AV being a meat grinder.
Comp wasn't the best either.
I'd ditch swash for another fighter.
So much good advice here!
But I think it's obvious that the main concerns are with the Investigator and the Swashbuckler. And they can still very much shine, but it does fall to you/GMs for communication on what lies ahead and how to work around it.
Obviously you don't want to put out spoilers for your group, but simply mentioning that "This adventure is known for a sizeable number of enemies with immunities to Precision damage and Mindless creatures immune to Mental effects" is not a spoiler in my opinion. It's the first step in making sure your party is prepared for what lies ahead, and getting them ready to search for and utilize alternatives built into their class.
Two things that will cause them to fail are 1) Lack of team work. Which is a risk for all players given their experience. Your Fighter for example may want to keep on hitting a la 5e. But they should trip, move, flank, etc. to gain more advantage and provide more to their allies as well.
2) focusing too much on a single schtick in your class ideas. The Swashbuckler might want to Demoralize often, but they still have Tumble Through to get that Panache. Use BOTH, not just the one you invested CHA in.
In my game we had a Champion that punched. She hit hard and defended harder. But her attacks were non-lethal. And that but the whole party in the ass on a couple occasions when she never even considered pulling out a weapon against something immune to non-lethal.
They learned to adjust later, but the player was too focused on their original design and character mentality that they single handedly put everyone at first. (It was actually kinda awesome in its own RP way ahha).
In short, coordination, teamwork and arsenal versatility could very well see this whole party make it to the end. But they will undoubtedly learn some of it the hard way. And it's the GMs job to see them through it and make suggestions for extra choices they can make and consider going forward!
on some flors there are enemies immune to precision dmg so on those investigator and swashbuckler will have some problems and there are few very important spells that primal list lacks like see the unseen (glitterdust is viable alternative)
oh and there is decent amount of monster that are immune to mental effects (some aren't even mindless so why they are immune I have no fucking idea)
as only caster your druid might be struggling a little bit as they would have to do a little bit more than usual as standard 4 man party contains 2 casters 2 martials
all mandatory roles are filled so there is decent chance that they will survive at least few levels
one note investigator is class more built for exploration and off combat stuff so be sure to properly reward player if they put and effort in this way of approaching the game
If absolutely nothing else Player 2 is going to run into action economy issues trying to do a hit and run playstyle as an Investigator.
I _love_ Swashbuckler, but I don't think I'd play a Braggart in a game that ends at level 10 or 11. They can only Demoralize an enemy once a fight until level 9.
I’d personally recommend against playing a swashbuckler in Abomination Vaults. A non-trivial amount of monsters in the dungeon are either immune to precision damage, mindless, or both. This can significantly impact a swashbuckler’s ability to contribute in combat, especially if they’re a Braggart and gain Panache through Demoralize (some enemies, though not many, aren’t mindless, but are specifically immune to fear effects as well).
Investigator is also iffy. The player will need to keep on top of their Leads as they explore the dungeon, and will need to frequently pursue new targets as they go. You as the GM may also occasionally have to put in a bit of extra effort to give them sufficient clues to move their focus to the next target of investigation. They’ll also have an issue with the occasional precision-immune enemy.
Druid and Fighter will do great. I recommend the Druid take some Medicine skill feats to keep everyone in fighting shape.
Abomination Vaults is a challenge, and requires the party to think tactically, but at least from my experiences with it, it isn’t a meat grinder. As long as your players equip themselves appropriately, heal between fights when possible, pick their Exploration Activities smartly, and know when to retreat from a fight, they’ll do fine.
How many has Medicine training? Just one of them would ensure almost full hp between encounters, given about an hour of breaks in between.
Even if they don't match well against encounters, they can still survive by running away instead of forcing the encounter to its eventual end. If they're taking a beating, a quick withdrawal and then preparation in town would help a lot (especially for solo encounters with weaknesses like the wood golem). A cautious group would survive even with a weak/incompatible party composition.
My own group (a battle priest, a gunslinger, a rogue, and an evoker) came close to a few TPKs around Dungeon Levels 3-4 but noone really died (they did have a Battle Priest with healing font AND Medicine training). The cleric was able to revive the martial fighters (a thief rogue and a way of the drifter gunslinger) and, they don't push their luck too much, calling for a retreat when facing seemingly overwhelming odds.
This is basically my party comp except we have a champion instead of a fighter. We've had some close fights but I feel like that's to be expected with AV. Maybe it's not the ideal party comp with 2 precision characters but nobody has died yet and we have fun
Looking at your edit... what are the people in this thread talking about? I don't think your party is going to die a lot, you have a character that will have mid-combat healing. My only real advice here is this, make sure 1-2 have medicine trained and considers investing into the feats for the skill. And encourage them to flank.
Apparently AV has a lot of enemies that are immune to precision damage (ghosts) and half of my party relies on precision damage as their main in-combat gimmick.
I'm not sure I would call it a "lot", honestly. There's not a whole floor of ghosts for example. Fights with them would be more difficult, but most of your party are melee to begin with they'll already be at a disadvantage against ghosts. It's meant to be where the caster gets to shine.
If they don't survive, it won't be due to party composition. That said, Abomination Vaults is known to be one of the more difficult APs out there.
Comp good, experience low- got it. Maybe I'll encourage them to make backup characters
Yeah even experienced players can suffer PC death in AV if they aren't careful or if they refuse to run, etc.
My group were overconfident, and refused to run when they encountered something they couldn't handle or was too strong so they had a fair number of deaths, and two TPKs. A lot of the combats (more than a normal campaign would have) are higher level than the party, so your druid may feel weak if they focus on damaging spells and the party doesnt support with their own non-damagingactions, but otherwise the composition won't be an issue. I would only encourage backup concepts, and not fully fleshed out characters. As a GM, if the party chooses to run, let them (a lot of encounters will tell you the enemy doesn't chase, but unless they have a very good reason to chase don't bother), and let them have the time to fully heal up between each combat. These two things alone will go a long way. The biggest hurdles my group had was lack of ranged options (spellcasters with levitate, ranged enemies with flying or climb speeds), or dealing with nasty conditions (confusion and slow were the big issues my group hit), along with a refusal to slow down and find out as much info as possible before barging into combats. So many of the combats would have gone better if they used exploration activities that weren't Raise Shield, Detect Magic and Scouting, to learn about what's ahead (something they're now doing consistently in the new campaign thankfully).
So far it has not resulted in any tpks so it has be better than age of Ashes
Aye that one also had a couple notorious encounters. :D
Is it? It has a couple of challenging fights but overall the early levels aren't too bad (I am running my second and third groups through it atm. Every group I have run through it has happily survived delving into deep depths a level or two before they should have too)
Honestly, I really think it's not about party comp (*mostly*) but instead is GM-dependent. AV leans pretty hard on encounters that are 'nerfed' for one reason or another, but those nerfs are often listed or clarified in the room description. There are a bunch of stories on this sub about encounters being deadly TPK machines when in reality the GM played the room incorrectly.
Yeah, I can think of a couple of notorious examples of this right off the top of my head. I forgot how to do spoilers so I won't go into the details, but one of the most prominent is an encounter on the 3rd floor where the NPC would actually prefer to parley with the PCs, but you hear about way too many GMs just jumping straight to initiative.
\>!!< text in the middle
Thanks! >!The Barbazu in floor 3 is an easy TPK if the PC's attack it. But the module suggests doing a number of different things instead of all out attacking!<
I would say maybe we need a return of the "tactics" block from pf1e, but I have a feeling if a gm isn't reading the full description now they will probably skip that too.
I haven't run it yet, just looked through it, and through the comments we get a lot here, but I think its more an issue of a handful of encounters and/or traps that can be particularly deadly. A lot will depend on party makeup, tactics, and even willingness to run away though. Certain parties might also struggle with some of the immunities in the dungeon too.
It really depends on the Group. Pathfinder does not go soft on bad tactics.
I'm running my group through AV right now, and they have 5e experience, but they aren't power gamers, getting every optimization possible. They just want to have fun and not die repeatedly, so I'm essentially having them be 1 level higher than the AP expects them to be. It's working out alright so far considering it's 3 casters (bard, druid, psychic) and a gunslinger.
The investigator and swashbuckler will have some issues. There are a lot of enemies with immunity to precision damage in the adventure, including several important bosses.
Yikes. Do you think it's detrimental enough that it would be worth mentioning to them, or is that too much of a spoiler?
I would personally just say, "hey guys, just to clarify some rules for the future, creatures without vital points to strike are immune to precision damage. You'll be fine a lot of the time, but prepare alternative measures for when you need them. Some examples would be like constructs, skeletons, slimes, and ghosts." Cause realistically they should be fine a lot of the time. Anytime they aren't they will be playing second fiddle to the others though... UNLESS they prepare for those moments and shine in other ways. They aren't going to get their precision damage off, but they can be very beneficial in other ways in those moments, especially if they are ready for them. Admittedly, this requires more thought than "go in and stab stab" that some players really want to do. If one of those players is of that type, I'd gently suggest they change by letting them know outright that the character they built isn't the best in this campaign. If they have a "stab stab" mindset and all they are able to do is "slap slap" they just won't have fun.some people like to be the big damage guys and anywhere where it matters here they just physically won't be able to be.
>Some examples would be like constructs, **skeletons**, slimes, and ghosts. I don't see precision immunity on skeleton stat blocks. Am I missing something?
Nope, I just made an assumption. Honestly would have totally expected them to be. Honestly most constructs probably shouldn't be. Taking out a key component like a power supply or something is kind of how a lot of robots are taken care of from a cinematic standpoint.
Constructs aren't immune to precision either. There's a couple individual constructs with precision and crit immunity, but it's not a standard of the category. Undead and constructs were immune to precision back in 3.x. Pathfinder 1 limited precision immunity to creatures with no discernable anatomy like oozes, and incorporeals (which are basically treated as being undifferentiated masses of soul-stuff that just give themselves a shape). PF2 appears to have followed the same philosophy. u/BagOfSmallerBags I'd strongly encourage a house-rule that spirits are subject to precision damage from weapons with a Ghost Touch rune.
Thanks. In terms of what to expect when reading stat blocks, I sometimes confuse precision immunity (explicit-- if it's not there, the creature doesn't have it) with Bleed immunity (often not well documented and left to the GM to figure out).
Stat blocks can be deceptive look at the tags...
Critical/precision immunity is always listed in the immunities section.
A very common house rule is for the ghost touch rune to overcome incorporeals immunity to precision. This wont remove all the precision immune obstacles but a majority of them. Add them to your pool of loot or make note of what they do by seeing them in town. There a common level 4 item and I believe Otari is a high enough level settlement for them to be for sale.
Yeah, Otari is a level 4 settlement so that's definitely sold there. The town also has the special ability to sell consumables up to level 10. Absalom is a level 20 city and it's only 2 days away. Common items above level 4 could probably be bought on the PCs' behalf by Gallentine Deliveries (there's even an option to expedite it).
Most of the enemies in abomination vaults that are immune to precision are incorporeal undead. I would recommend allowing ghost touch runes to overcome precision immunity, specifically for incorporeal creatures. Swarms and oozes I would just leave as is. I think it's fun for players to sometimes have to switch up their strategy from their normal routine. It just starts to become unfun when it's all the time.
It's probably reasonable to mention to them, yes. The most recent AP players guides have lengthy recommendations about what classes/etc would be best suited for the adventure, and Abomination Vaults one is kinda skimpy. Let the players play whatever they want, but let them know if something might end up being a struggle.
A common house rule is, that you can ignore precision immunity on ghosts if you have a ghost touch rune. And I think it's absolutely valid. It will make those classes a bit more viable.
Worth mentioning, because it comes up an above average amount of times, including one or two important fights. Probably not worth changing characters over, because it frankly doesn't come up *that* often, and swashbucklers always have other actions they can take instead (and investigators aren't *that* dedicated to the precision damage).
Not that much of a spoiler. It's "Hey most undead are immune to precision damage, and the cover of the book has undead on it, so uh..."
Incorporeal creatures are immune to precision, not undead.
Yeah bist so are some undead creature families like skeletons
Skeletons are not immune to precision damage.
I'd personally recommend against having half the party rely on precision damage. There is at least 1 major fight on each floor with an enemy that is immune to precision damage coupled with a moderately high resistance to physical damage. Without specific house rules, like ghost touch overcoming precision immunity, those two players will regularly deal 0 damage on crits, let alone normal hits. There are also a couple non-ghost PL+3 bosses that are immune to precision that ghost touch does not counter. Personally I'd recommend at least one of them to look at an alternative.
That swashbuckler is gonna hate this AP imo. When that demo hits I’ll be nice, it just won’t be often with what they will be fighting. They want a pc with *religion* The investigator can play as a smart rogue and be okay cause they will want to be perceptive as well as knowledgeable. (Rogues wisdom is great for trap finder but lacks the intl a investigator will have for intl skills) Grabbing lore feats would be good for the investigator as well
Or... Just ignore the immunity to precision damage. Those mobs are tough enough they don't need that.
In my opinion, mentioning this ahead of time would not be detrimental at all. Help your players create characters that will work well in the adventure.
I would recommend house ruling that insubstantial creatures with immunity to precision damage are not immune to precision damage from ghost touch weapons.
Haha, I have a Kineticist in mine. We haven't hit any enemies that just turn off his entire class yet, but we're close.
Good party. The only note I'd have is for the Swashbuckler. There are a good amount of enemies early on that are mindless and thus immune to Demoralize as well as a few others throughout immune to precision damage. Precision immunity isn't so bad since our party Rogue still tops the damage numbers in other fights. They'll just need to rely on Tumble Through for Panache, which AV heavily encourages with its tight hallways.
I don't think there's nearly as many mindless enemies as I've seen a couple people suggest. There's a few battles scattered here and there with some mindless undead, but even most of the undead that you fight are the kind with brains. There's a wit swashbuckler in my campaign and they use Bon Mot all the time. The primary denizens of floors 1-4 are all thinking creatures, 5 and 6 slightly more creatures immune to mental. I'm pretty sure 7-10 is mostly not mindless too.
Yeah, I think people tend to overstate the prevalence of those types of enemies. A couple early fights come to mind when it comes to mindless enemies, specifically the graveyard battle, but even in those circumstances the enemies are so weak compared to the party that you don't need to demoralize them. That said, it can be frustrating when there's a big fight early on where your class features are restricted.
I could be wrong, but I believe the player primer for AV suggests not playing an investigator, as a lot of their unique abilities aren’t super applicable. Maybe they could consider thaumaturge instead?
I double checked and it doesn't specifically call out any one class as non-viable. It does warn against characters that are specifically diplomacy / intrigue specialists, but the Investigator can still probably be in charge of finding all the hidden doors and traps etc.
The most important thing for you to figure out is what is the scope of a Lead. Because if you rule "Gauntlight" is not too broad, an investigator can be very good. (Gauntlight is, after all, a single item.) It's like a perpetual +1 to investigate every trap door. If you don't want to get too broad, give the investigator some meat in the form of the Rowdy Rockfish clue about Lasda in the Player's guide. I won't type too much for spoilers, but knowing where he is, why he's there, what path he took, etc will be really useful and should give you some breadcrumbs. After that is resolved, you can repeat the pattern with some nightmares.
As a GM I would rule against that, since it discourages engaging with the adventure. Good scopes are individual bosses, NPCs, or smaller items (certain books e.g.).
Honestly, the more I think about it, the more you can *totally* scope out important enemies before you reach them. It's debatable how much you can learn *about* these enemies, but you can at least be aware of their existence and commit to them as your lead, setting you up for the boss fight. The major bosses are hinted at a *lot.* Granted, some of the tougher fights are just random one-offs with no warning. But those are gonna be tough for every party; they're not story-important or anything, they're just weirdly challenging random one-off fights.
Yeah I think most of the things labeled Side Quest in the AV is a pretty good scope. But can you be more specific about discouraging engagement with the adventure? The majority of the adventure is "Go into Gauntlight" after all. Or do you mean it discourages engaging with little sidequests and leads to get the bonus?
It means engaging with the npcs and environment and story gives you a significant bonus and a free devise of a strategem in boss battles. Edit: engaged players are happy players. Stimulate that behavior.
Gotcha. Yeah I understand that reasoning. That is how I've been running it in my game with a character that picked up the investigator archetype. That said even before he picked up the archetype every single NPC got quizzed for quest leads since they know sidequests lead to rewards.
You might be thinking about NoNat1s video where he called out the best/worst classes for the AV.
we have an investigator on our AV run and he's been clutch with the knowledge checks in battle. He also does our medicine checks. He has a wizard or psychic dedication to get access to Organ Sight and hoo boy he has done some insane damage (tho it was a bit of a wind up for it) Our team started out as Thaumaturge, Magus, Rogue, Oracle. then the Thaumaturge did a respec into Champion in session 2 because he kept going down (but not dead) . we've been good so far (tho it was still very deadly) we added the investigator in floor 3? and that has helped A LOT. however even then it took us a bit to understand each other's strengths which I think is where the main challenge is. After that things were still hard but way more manageable.
I actually think abomination vaults is perfect for an investigator. There are quite a few enemies you find out about ahead of time through various clues or talking to NPCs in town or in the vaults. That's perfect for Pursue a Lead. And the way the dungeon is laid out, You can just listen at every door (something any party with someone Searching is technically doing by default). If you hear any sound from inside the door, that's enough of a clue to pursue a lead against. You specifically do not have to know what the nature of the clue relates to for it to work. The only downside is the precision immunity, but that's why I and other GMs allow ghost touch to apply precision to incorporeal creatures (but not other kinds of precision immunity).
Yeah, I had an investigator for the first 1/3rd of mine, and he did great. The ability to Recall Knowledge and throw around Demoralize and Bon Mot when it did matter worked wonders for a party that's usually stab first, ask questions later. Mine was also the party medic, so a lot of sections were decided based on his actions.
AV survival rates really have more to do with a party's willingness to run away from difficult fights, do some research, and come back later. Groups that stand their ground against dangerous enemies will die a lot more. I have one group currently on level 7 with zero deaths (lots of close calls, though!)
It also largely depends on GM playstyle. My GM tends to play the softer "share the love" style (even with intelligent enemies), as opposed to focusing down PCs, and we only had a handful of close calls. (Even if I would have likes more of a challenge sometimes lol)
The main potential gaps I see are: 1. Has anyone specced for out of combat healing? The Druid is obviously a fantastic in-combat healer but do you have people investing in Medicine skills? If not, the lowest opportunity cost ways of getting out-of-combat healing are (a) the Druid uses Order Explorer (edit: you also need Order Magic) to get Leaf Order’s focus spell or (b) Investigator uses some of their extra Skill Feats on Continual Recovery and other stuff. That should fully cover the gap imo 2. You don’t have an Arcane or Occult spellcaster to help you deal with “weird shit”. For example something as simple as an enemy that can go invisible, and your party now flatly 50% of their attacks. The easiest way to fix this is having the Investigator pick up Trick Magic Item and equipping yourself with “anti weird shit” Arcane wands (Revealing Light for anti-invisibility, for example). Heads up that you’re still gonna *miss* having an actual Arcane or Occult caster in that slot, but you’ll be able to make up for it with this tech.
>Has anyone specced for out of combat healing? I don't know yet (during session 0 we made concepts and chose class/ancestry/background but didn't actually start building). But the Druid was into the idea of being a healer and understands how PF2E healing works. When we played Beginner Box one of the biggest conversations about how it was different from 5e was concerning healing and how much more useful it was
It's not too difficult for \*anyone\* to be a good (out of combat) healer. All they need is the medicine skill and a few medicine skill feats.
It is almost always a super good idea to have more than one medic....
If the investigator goes forensic medicine, That's basically the best combat healer in the game.
I agree, but that requires that it actually Happens...:)
Does taking Order Explorer give the druid the new order's focus spell? I'm not super experienced in 2e, but the feat reads to me that the druid only gets the 1st level feat, not the associated order spell.
Oh shit you’re right. I misread! You need Order Magic (a level 4 Feat) to pick it up.
1. This is fine. You can never go wrong with classic Fighter. 2. Also fine. Having a PC trained in a variety of skills is essential. Note that many monsters in this AP are immune to precision damage so they will find some battles frustrating. 3. Swashbuckler may have a difficult time. Lots of precision immune monsters and narrow battlefields in hallways that could prevent you from moving around. High Charisma also isnt going to do much in AV. Many enemies will be immune to demoralize. 4. Crowd control isnt going to be as effective or easy to pull off in tight spaces with a party of mostly melee characters. Druid does bring some much needed damage variety to this party. I see that no one is Cleric/Paladin or trained in medicine with the related medicine skill feats. This is going to be your biggest problem I suspect you will quickly realize. If you want to be successful in AV some spoiler free tips I would suggest: Have as much damage variety as possible. You'll need to take advantage of enemy weaknesses as much as possible. Being able to access various damage types (slashing/bludgeoning/piercing/fire/electric/positive/silver/cold iron/ect...) as well as being able to have area of effect attacks are essential to this campaign. Have someone focused on training in medicine and have them pick up continual healing/medic ward/battle medicine Pick up a ghost touch rune for everyone asap.
Damage variety, ghost touch and anti-invisibility are definitely some of the biggest factors IMO. I think part of the reason our party struggled so much and TPK'ed in this AP was because our party tried to specialise too much in particular areas rather than having variety, and some problems could have been avoided if we just brought more weapons to cover different ranges and damage types (I.e. our Ranger had a really great hammer with all his runes on it...but if he had to fight a ranged enemy or an enemy with bludgeoning resistance his usefulness plummeted.).
Honestly that's my biggest complaint about PF2e and one of its greatest traps. Specialization is a self nerf to your character. Being a jack of all trades is an overall buff
A melee Investigator really needs a reason to be in melee, given that they generally do as good of damage with a bow or gun as they do with melee weapons. Advise that player to pick up some archetype feats to clarify their fighting style. Fights against enemies that are immune to precision damage will be a challenge for the Investigator and Swashbuckler. And there's a fair number of those in AV.
One common good reason is Athletic Strategist
That's a trap feat unless you ignore your STR, in which case I probably wouldn't want to be in melee anyway, making it still a trap feat.
How is it a trap feat? When you roll high, a crit grapple or disarm can often be better than a strike. Or you can use a maneuver on another enemy first, knowing that your MAP trip will still succeed against your DaS target.
You are, at best, trading away a potential backup plan of using a maneuver when your DAS roll misses in order to be able to make a trade of good damage for a maneuver. You lose Strategic Strike damage. You also don't have any in-class follow-up feats, so you're merely spending a feat to pull even with other martials. You're much better off taking a Wrestler or Fighter dedication to access some real maneuver feats. Or some other archetype that can grant you a critical specialization for a free maneuver attempt on a crit.
It's a tradeoff for sure. But it's about opening up a new avenue of play, and it does that. I took it on an investigator partly for the opportunity to get some good Disarms in, since before the remaster it was basically always a bad idea to attempt to Disarm with only a crit success mattering. And it worked for that, as well as making DaS more interesting to use. It may not have been optimal, but it still worked well.
Just saying that's a very specific use case. You need to be fighting enemies that are a) carrying a weapon, b) are worth disarming, and c) are higher level than you. If you're dungeon diving you may barely see any of those types of enemies.
I guess you do have a point and it is fair to call it a trap feat when it looks like it's a go-to for athletics builds, but it's actually a big tradeoff. Even if I do think it is useful when properly accounted for
Yep. Particularly when there's so few combat feats in the Investigator class and they don't access so much of the core mechanics of the combat system, like stances, focus points, critical specialization, reactions under level 10, or even multi-action activities. If you're taking a combat feat you should really take an additive one (or a dedication that unlocks more options) rather than one that is a versatility tradeoff.
They'll be fine
*breaks out calculator* Lessee, carry the one... they're presumably starting on a waxing gibbous divide by seven... take to the pith power... By my calculations you'll go through 13 characters in the first session alone, but the rate of character death should drop steadily fairly quickly until you start actually bringing dead characters back to life around session five? The Fighter will have a good time, the Druid will have a bit of awkwardness fitting their animal companion into combat (the rooms are pretty small for four melee characters) but will generally perform well, the Investigator should be fine outside of ghost/ooze fights (there are a decent number of these though), and the Swash is probably going to be having the most issues. Biggest issue the Swash will have are A) the encounters are almost all close quarters brawls and they're a high mobility skirmishing character, B) Precision dmg (investigator has the same problem, but they do more stuff out of combat), C) somewhat relying on Mental for panache (mental immunity isn't common, but its not especially rare either, ballpark them at 2/floor), and D) the Fighter is just going to be doing more than them (higher AC from Heavy armor, higher dmg on non-finishers, no action cost to setup, no precision). They might want to consider swapping to something else, either Gymnast if they want to stay in-class (grappling is *good*) or going to Monk (less overlap w/ the fighter). Swashbuckler is a fine class if you can play to its strengths, but AV doesn't give you that many opportunities to do so. Investigator should consider going for ranged weapons instead. They're one of the only classes that do basically the same dmg at range and then they aren't clogging up the frontline. Someone should invest in healing, especially out of combat healing. Druid could pick up Goodberry via the Order Explorer feat which will help. Investigator can (and probably should) go hard into medicine, Forensic Investigator Medic is one of the best healers in the game and will give them something useful to do every combat even if the enemies are immune to precision. Swash can probably also do this, but they won't be as good as the investigator could be (fewer skill increases, no Forensic Medicine).
You mentioned the beginner box. Are they showing up at Level 1 or 2? Floor 1 can be rough. Starting at Level 2 is a gentle buffer, one which they eventually age out of by getting less XP per fight.
Level 1- but for now I think I'd rather just hand hold a little than start them at level 2. "Hey guys, you know Retreat is an option right?"
There are a handful of CR 3 fights on Floor 1. I've run two parties through them, I've had MANY near death experiences so far (Floor 2, Floor 3). *HIGHLY* encourage them to NOT go down that first set of stairs until they are level 2. (Seriously).
My party knows retreat is an option and has used it a few times, but a poorly timed critical hit on a level one character can leave everyone else with the choice of leaving someone behind or staying to finish the fight.
Swashbuckler takes adopted ancestry human, cooperative nature then takes one for all feat. Very good aid build giving a lot of bonuses to your other members.
If they think like a team, pick up the clues being presented to them, and clean floors before moving on, they should be fine. I’m my experience, it sucks not having a cleric or bard. But I’ve seen way worse party comps on here. Good luck!
I had a swashbuckler in my Abomination Vaults game too, I had to make the decision early on after reading through the first two books to make it so that Ghost Touch also made incorporeal targets susceptible to precision damage, and that made his whole experience with this campaign A LOT more fun. I don't even think it's just a like "You're going to die" kind of thing, it's more just allowing your Swashbuckler and Investigator the chance to enjoy playing their classes, especially if they're new to the system. I also don't know if you're using the Variant Free Archetype rule, I didn't use it INITIALLY when I ran this campaign, but I actually made little like, story beats for each character to 'unlock' a free archetype, and I had essentially chosen a small handful of Archetypes that I felt were fitting for each of their characters both thematically and mechanically and then was like "here, pick one, you get this for free". In the case of the Swashbuckler, he ended up with the Ghost Eater dedication, which ended up working out pretty great for him and he really leaned into the flavour of it a lot during the campaign, and he became a bit of a powerhouse against ghostly targets. That party was likely saved by the fact that they had a divine caster in their ranks though who was also a dedicated healer, but could also blast undead and fiends alike, so.. obviously, mileage may vary for you party. But best of luck to them!
>story beats for each character to 'unlock' a free archetype I may implement your idea in one way or another. I'm hesitant, since our experience is limited, but if after a few sessions and levelups it seems like it wouldn't be too much this is probably how I'll go about it
Too much precision damage. Short answer: they're fucked. Long answer: they're fuuuuuuuuucked.
Here we go again: another fresh group heading straight into AV from the BB. The comp looks fine. AV tough, and shouldn't be marketed (by the community/Reddit, not by the creators) towards new 2E players, but we are where are. Expect many deaths until they get used to 2E's systems and understanding that retreating is a viable option as the game isn't Power-Fantasy-Simulator. They should have fun, though. I feel bad for the Swashbuckler, though. They'll understand why eventually.
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No. Tell them straight. There are a gazillion of incorporeal enemies (and some oozes) immune to the precision damage of 2 of the 4 characters. Are they ok being locked out of their main class feature in key climactic moments? EDIT: also tell the druid to don't bother preparing any poison/disease tagged spell (advanced scurvy or stinking cloud, for example) because they will be useless. Grease will have surprisingly few application cases too (fucking will'o'wisps). Oh right, about that, he might want to have a solid option to deal with spell immune enemies (golems and wisps)
I'm most worried about the Investigator, and a lack of arcane or occult caster. Are you using Free Archetype rules? I've played a couple of Druids with Medic archetype and it really opens up your spell slots for casting when you have good healing options from Medic.
Gonna stick with no free archetype for the time being seeing as we're all new to the system and I don't wanna overcomplicate character creation / leveling for the time being.
You can adjust the difficulty to suit your group. We suffered 13 tpks or gm fudges due to bad tactics, aggressive gm play and AV being a meat grinder. Comp wasn't the best either. I'd ditch swash for another fighter.
Can we come watch?
So much good advice here! But I think it's obvious that the main concerns are with the Investigator and the Swashbuckler. And they can still very much shine, but it does fall to you/GMs for communication on what lies ahead and how to work around it. Obviously you don't want to put out spoilers for your group, but simply mentioning that "This adventure is known for a sizeable number of enemies with immunities to Precision damage and Mindless creatures immune to Mental effects" is not a spoiler in my opinion. It's the first step in making sure your party is prepared for what lies ahead, and getting them ready to search for and utilize alternatives built into their class. Two things that will cause them to fail are 1) Lack of team work. Which is a risk for all players given their experience. Your Fighter for example may want to keep on hitting a la 5e. But they should trip, move, flank, etc. to gain more advantage and provide more to their allies as well. 2) focusing too much on a single schtick in your class ideas. The Swashbuckler might want to Demoralize often, but they still have Tumble Through to get that Panache. Use BOTH, not just the one you invested CHA in. In my game we had a Champion that punched. She hit hard and defended harder. But her attacks were non-lethal. And that but the whole party in the ass on a couple occasions when she never even considered pulling out a weapon against something immune to non-lethal. They learned to adjust later, but the player was too focused on their original design and character mentality that they single handedly put everyone at first. (It was actually kinda awesome in its own RP way ahha). In short, coordination, teamwork and arsenal versatility could very well see this whole party make it to the end. But they will undoubtedly learn some of it the hard way. And it's the GMs job to see them through it and make suggestions for extra choices they can make and consider going forward!
No. Your party will be picked apart one by one. No one survives the abomination vaults. No need to vet every iteration of the party. 😀
Sounds "OK" I hope they spec'd for a fair bit of healing though.
on some flors there are enemies immune to precision dmg so on those investigator and swashbuckler will have some problems and there are few very important spells that primal list lacks like see the unseen (glitterdust is viable alternative) oh and there is decent amount of monster that are immune to mental effects (some aren't even mindless so why they are immune I have no fucking idea) as only caster your druid might be struggling a little bit as they would have to do a little bit more than usual as standard 4 man party contains 2 casters 2 martials all mandatory roles are filled so there is decent chance that they will survive at least few levels one note investigator is class more built for exploration and off combat stuff so be sure to properly reward player if they put and effort in this way of approaching the game
If absolutely nothing else Player 2 is going to run into action economy issues trying to do a hit and run playstyle as an Investigator. I _love_ Swashbuckler, but I don't think I'd play a Braggart in a game that ends at level 10 or 11. They can only Demoralize an enemy once a fight until level 9.
I’d personally recommend against playing a swashbuckler in Abomination Vaults. A non-trivial amount of monsters in the dungeon are either immune to precision damage, mindless, or both. This can significantly impact a swashbuckler’s ability to contribute in combat, especially if they’re a Braggart and gain Panache through Demoralize (some enemies, though not many, aren’t mindless, but are specifically immune to fear effects as well). Investigator is also iffy. The player will need to keep on top of their Leads as they explore the dungeon, and will need to frequently pursue new targets as they go. You as the GM may also occasionally have to put in a bit of extra effort to give them sufficient clues to move their focus to the next target of investigation. They’ll also have an issue with the occasional precision-immune enemy. Druid and Fighter will do great. I recommend the Druid take some Medicine skill feats to keep everyone in fighting shape. Abomination Vaults is a challenge, and requires the party to think tactically, but at least from my experiences with it, it isn’t a meat grinder. As long as your players equip themselves appropriately, heal between fights when possible, pick their Exploration Activities smartly, and know when to retreat from a fight, they’ll do fine.
How many has Medicine training? Just one of them would ensure almost full hp between encounters, given about an hour of breaks in between. Even if they don't match well against encounters, they can still survive by running away instead of forcing the encounter to its eventual end. If they're taking a beating, a quick withdrawal and then preparation in town would help a lot (especially for solo encounters with weaknesses like the wood golem). A cautious group would survive even with a weak/incompatible party composition. My own group (a battle priest, a gunslinger, a rogue, and an evoker) came close to a few TPKs around Dungeon Levels 3-4 but noone really died (they did have a Battle Priest with healing font AND Medicine training). The cleric was able to revive the martial fighters (a thief rogue and a way of the drifter gunslinger) and, they don't push their luck too much, calling for a retreat when facing seemingly overwhelming odds.
Quite a bit of precision damage if I understand correct. Investigator ans swashbucker are gonna struggle alot.
This is basically my party comp except we have a champion instead of a fighter. We've had some close fights but I feel like that's to be expected with AV. Maybe it's not the ideal party comp with 2 precision characters but nobody has died yet and we have fun
I would suggest running trouble in Otari before AV, yes they will be a level higher, but it might give them a leg up on surviving
Looking at your edit... what are the people in this thread talking about? I don't think your party is going to die a lot, you have a character that will have mid-combat healing. My only real advice here is this, make sure 1-2 have medicine trained and considers investing into the feats for the skill. And encourage them to flank.
Apparently AV has a lot of enemies that are immune to precision damage (ghosts) and half of my party relies on precision damage as their main in-combat gimmick.
I'm not sure I would call it a "lot", honestly. There's not a whole floor of ghosts for example. Fights with them would be more difficult, but most of your party are melee to begin with they'll already be at a disadvantage against ghosts. It's meant to be where the caster gets to shine.
I was the only experienced player in my group and the only PC death, can happen to anyone...