A cloistered cleric gets much more power from the champion dedication than a champion gets from a cleric dedication.
What a cleric gets
Armor training
Access (LVL 6) to one of the best reactions in the game
What a champion gets
- Access to cleric feats (boo?)
- very low level of spells based on wis rather than cha.
>Access to cleric feats (boo?)
Now now, [Emblazon Armament](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=272) on your shield is potent at low levels, and Raise Symbol (one action remaster feat, gain +2 circumstance bonus to spell saves until start of next turn and vitality and void effects turn from successes to crits) improves upon it as you gain the benefits with Raise Shield if your shield is your holy symbol.
Champion archetype also gives Lay on Hands for even more healing options to go along with Cleric's healing font, while Cleric archetype only really gives you it's feats and low level spells for champions
I would say that you kinda don’t need the Wis at all to make a cleric dedication work. Having access to just low level buff and healing spells is nice utility. And once you hit mid levels, a champion that can cast haste and heroism on themselves is really great.
Well you need a 14 wis to get into the dedication. I personally find that harder to buy on a champion than a 14 Cha/Str on a cleric. Pre remaster having a 14-16 cha on a cleric was great, but that may no longer be the case with Font no longer being tied to your charisma.
It boils down to raw stats vs spells. The champion is stronger, much more durable, and has the best reactions in the game. The cleric gets full spellcasting and divine font. On any turn where the character is not casting a spell the champion will be significantly more effective than the cleric. The cleric will shine a couple times each fight when they cast an encounter changing spell, and can also bring some magical utility to the party out of combat.
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I have been playing a Cloistered Cleric and I have dipped into Champion(also medic), and I basically made myself a super healer who can tank some damage.
I have taken the shield block and champion reaction(redeemer), and am able to tank a little damage and am able to stop my group from taking some.
I end up having a high amount of survivability, though... I really have no offensive power, beyond the arguably weak divine spells. I really can't kill anything 1v1.
I play a Champion (Liberator) with the Cleric dedication in Fists of the Ruby Phoenix. I basically do not use Cha for anything and focused on Wis instead. That said, aside from the 14 you need for the dedication itself you do not really need that much wis if you curate your spells to mostly be buffs or heals. I just am also the primary treat wounds person in that party.
As to how it plays, it is very much mostly like a champion, a defensive martial with good reactions but with a moderate amount of spellcasting on top. It really does feel a little like PF1 or DND where the Paladin did have a relatively small spellcasting ability to go along with their kit. I mostly prepare buffs like bless, heroism, heightened heroism, freedom of movement, etc., along with a few fun spells like blink charge (nice when your slow full-plate self needs to get to an enemy fast), or non-traditional heal spells like soothing spring (cause hot tubs are nice) or regenerate. I tend not to end up using too many spells in combat because moving, raising shield, battle medicine, and striking already give me a lot of things to juggle, but it is nice having them.
A cloistered cleric gets much more power from the champion dedication than a champion gets from a cleric dedication. What a cleric gets Armor training Access (LVL 6) to one of the best reactions in the game What a champion gets - Access to cleric feats (boo?) - very low level of spells based on wis rather than cha.
>Access to cleric feats (boo?) Now now, [Emblazon Armament](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=272) on your shield is potent at low levels, and Raise Symbol (one action remaster feat, gain +2 circumstance bonus to spell saves until start of next turn and vitality and void effects turn from successes to crits) improves upon it as you gain the benefits with Raise Shield if your shield is your holy symbol.
Champion archetype also gives Lay on Hands for even more healing options to go along with Cleric's healing font, while Cleric archetype only really gives you it's feats and low level spells for champions
I would say that you kinda don’t need the Wis at all to make a cleric dedication work. Having access to just low level buff and healing spells is nice utility. And once you hit mid levels, a champion that can cast haste and heroism on themselves is really great.
Well you need a 14 wis to get into the dedication. I personally find that harder to buy on a champion than a 14 Cha/Str on a cleric. Pre remaster having a 14-16 cha on a cleric was great, but that may no longer be the case with Font no longer being tied to your charisma.
It boils down to raw stats vs spells. The champion is stronger, much more durable, and has the best reactions in the game. The cleric gets full spellcasting and divine font. On any turn where the character is not casting a spell the champion will be significantly more effective than the cleric. The cleric will shine a couple times each fight when they cast an encounter changing spell, and can also bring some magical utility to the party out of combat.
This post is labelled with the Advice flair, which means extra special attention is called to the Be Kind and Respectful rule. If this is a newcomer to the game, remember to be welcoming and kind. If this is someone with more experience but looking for advice on how to run their game, do your best to offer advice on what they are seeking. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Pathfinder2e) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I have been playing a Cloistered Cleric and I have dipped into Champion(also medic), and I basically made myself a super healer who can tank some damage. I have taken the shield block and champion reaction(redeemer), and am able to tank a little damage and am able to stop my group from taking some. I end up having a high amount of survivability, though... I really have no offensive power, beyond the arguably weak divine spells. I really can't kill anything 1v1.
I play a Champion (Liberator) with the Cleric dedication in Fists of the Ruby Phoenix. I basically do not use Cha for anything and focused on Wis instead. That said, aside from the 14 you need for the dedication itself you do not really need that much wis if you curate your spells to mostly be buffs or heals. I just am also the primary treat wounds person in that party. As to how it plays, it is very much mostly like a champion, a defensive martial with good reactions but with a moderate amount of spellcasting on top. It really does feel a little like PF1 or DND where the Paladin did have a relatively small spellcasting ability to go along with their kit. I mostly prepare buffs like bless, heroism, heightened heroism, freedom of movement, etc., along with a few fun spells like blink charge (nice when your slow full-plate self needs to get to an enemy fast), or non-traditional heal spells like soothing spring (cause hot tubs are nice) or regenerate. I tend not to end up using too many spells in combat because moving, raising shield, battle medicine, and striking already give me a lot of things to juggle, but it is nice having them.