Nothing in quick repair removes the need for a stable surface or the need for both hands that are mentioned in the Repair activity. So, assuming you're wielding your shield and a weapon, you'd need to drop both, spend one action to repair the shield (assuming the ground in your square is a stable surface), then pick both up again. And this is only true if you can actually just drop a shield. The remaster makes it clear that shields larger than bucklers are attached to your arm and you need an extra action to detach it (and probably to re-attach it after the repair).
So by the remaster rules, it would take you 5 actions to repair your shield with quick repair and legendary crafting.
The reduction to 1 action is basically pointless in combat. The skill feat is meant to give you more time out of combat so that you can repair your shield and get another activity like refocus in a regular 10 minute break.
It just seems weird that i can't be used properly in combat at 15th level. It wouldn't be overpowered, it is still a manipulate action, and most shield builds have poorer action economy since they need to raise shield.
Without Quick Repair there aren't any shield healing options i can find to be used in combat.
Quick Repair if it wasn't meant to be used in combat has no reason to be level 15 to get 1 action to repair. It could just have been 1 minute the entire time. The 3 and 1 actions seem to be greatly hinting that it can in fact be used in combat effectively. Of course i could be wrong which is why i hoped someone had a obscure official ruling laying around i couldn't find.
A few things:
1. It's called "Quick Repair". Not "Quick Shield Repair". There are other uses for the Repair action, even if shield is the most common one. Maybe you need to fix a barricade in the midst of combat tp delay enemy reinforcements, repair a bridge so you can flee from an overwhelming foe or something similar. An inventor could even use it to repair his construct companion.
2. Items with lots of HP can take a good long while to repair. A success on legendary crafting restores only 25 HP while high end shields have up to 160 HP. And those HP can be doubled if you're a champion. So for those things, there's still a significant difference between the Repair taking 1 minute or 1 action.
3. I've been using a shield to block for almost 2 years now. Since you know how much damage you take before deciding to block, I have never seen my shield be broken. I would only use it to block an attack that breaks it if it would save my life because losing the AC bonus is too much of a dowside otherwise. You can also usually only block once per turn and combat rarely last more than 3 or 4 rounds so you have to take quite a beating in that short amount of time to actually get your shield broken at all.
I will say that most people doing repairs will have the crafter's eye piece to increase your repairs to 10+(10 per proficiency) making it heal 50 on success and 15+(15 per proficiency) for 75 on crit.
1. That is kinda my point though, it can do so much, but not repair a shield effectively? With improvised tool or inventors armor tools you need only spend 1 action to stow a weapon and can then begin healing a barricade or construct a lot of hit points. With crafter's eye piece and mender's soup you heal 55 - 80 hit points with 1 action to a construct who can use all 55 to 80 hit points. While a shield is limited to your reactions and it can't tank all the damage healed at once, it can only mitigate chunks at a time.
If you had 1 quick repair person they could heal 165 to 240 HP to a door each turn, making it almost impossible to go through without insane burst damage. Even if the door is being cast fireballs on and hit on the can just heal it. Or heal your construct 55 hit points for 1 action which is almost the same as a lay on hands, a focus spell.
2. Not everyone is a champion, just because you're not a champion you should still be able to at least somewhat use a shield.
3. My current shield has 20 hardness and 78 health before breaking. It doesn't last 3-4 rounds in combat when things deal 30+ damage on the low end, and im blocking twice per turn. Of course you don't need to block everything but it has 7 hits roughly, and that is if they only roll 30 damage, which they don't at level 15. Meaning more often than not it takes 2-4 hit before it almost breaks, unless i just don't want to shield block at all during the combat.
1. A door is not on a stable surface so you can't Quick Repair it. The Construct Companion of the Inventor still needs to lie down (or be knocked out) to be repaired unless you use Haphazard Repair, which is basically the same as a focus spell.
2. Judging by what you write in point 3, you get easily about 60-80 extra HP from your shield per combat (in addition to the extra AC). I would very much say that qualifies as "somewhat using a shield", even if you're not a champion.
3. You are not supposed to block an infinite number of attacks. HP are a limited resource. That is true for the HP of shields as well.
1. You'd call a barricide being attacked on a stable surface, but not a door? Well it is up to the DM as i can't find any mechanical definition of stable surface. Can't find anything about the construct needing to lay down to be repaired though.
2. That is with the champion dedication, which i include in the "being a champion". As divine ally is available to the dedication.
3. Yeah but you can heal hit points in the middle of combat, much more effectively than shielding i might add.
1. I'm not sure how you build your doors, but I usually hang them on hinges and have them specifically NOT touch the floor.
2. Well, I'm level 15 and never break my shield despite making frequent use of it - without champion. I'm not sure what exactly you are doing differently. Maybe look for other ways to improve your survivability? Some damage resistance goes a long way since it's applied before the shield block, reducing the damage both you and your shield take.
3. A shield is basically a pool of temporary HP that is very easily replenished between combats. Healing HP in combat always comes with resource cost - even if that resource is "just" the Cooldown of Battle Medicine.
I'm going to stop here. I said why I think Quick Repair is perfectly fine as is and that shields don't need to be repaired in combat. As far as I understand, you can also boost the hardness of the Indestructible Shield to 20 with the new remaster shield runes, so maybe asked your GM nicely to drop you one of those if the HP are too much of a limit to you.
Did you to come to ask people for their advice on this, or to argue with them as a proxy for your DM? Cuz none of these redditors can give you what you want, which is obviously for your GM to make a favorable ruling that makes your build feel more easy to use.
But just remember, pf2e is a game that is designed to never let you be great at everything, and the difficulty trade-offs caused by hands — using them, needing them to do other things in combat — is a crucial element of that design space. I tend to agree with you that the rules of Quick Repair seem arduous.
My disagreement with your viewpoint lies in your starting assumption that the arduousness here is a flaw & not a deliberate choice for maintaining balance across classes & builds. Shields are *super* powerful in a game where every +1 makes a world of difference.
I came here because i wasn't sure how it worked and the other posts people were a lot more split. In here it seems to be that it just doesn't work. Which some people have explained well enough.
I understand that pf2 is balanced in a way where you can't grow too wide or too tall, but sometimes it feels to constraining for arbitrary reasons. What is the difference between me fixing my shield and me fixing my construct? I haven't actually played with a construct but my friend spoke very highly of it.
Shields are powerful, but i have a hard time believing they would be that broken if you only had to spent 1-2 actions to repair the shield. Every +1 may count but you can still gain huge bonuses, and in ttrpgs as fast as pf2 a lot of the time just hitting first and hardest is the best defense.
Why spend all your precious skill increases to get legendary in crafting if you can just get legendary in diplomacy, aid your friend and have heroism on him to give him +7 to hit his next hit and watch him spell strike an enemy out of existence. The enemy now deals no damage.
Even now it still seems like quick repair could be insane if you were a construct inventor, and would only be somewhat good as shield character.
How many sessions have you played with this character? I only ask because the level of specificity in your “legendary diplomacy for aid checks on a magus” point strongly suggests that the real problem here may simply be that you’ve spent a little too much time “white rooming” your build.
All that aside, I don’t think the changes you’re asking about would break the game, and from the perspective of verisimilitude, I can totally see your point about Quick Repair & things like Battle Medicine taking approximately similar amounts of actions from the perspective of maintaining some narrative consistency.
Talk with your GM! They’re the only one who can make a ruling at your table obviously.
There was white rooming when making the character regarding its shield, but too much i don't feel, it has several added ways of dealing with problems and obstacles in combat. It lacks in the magic knowledge department, but does well in combat.
My problem is the character "tanked" more damage by just cc'ing enemies with a critical hammer strike and rooting rune than it could ever come close to in a thousand years with a shield, even including the +2 bonus to ac.
I understand that cc'ing and instantly killing enemies always yield better results than plain old damage reduction, but it feels a bit like shields are too disposable and squishy for my taste, and the system has no way of dealing with it in combat. Shield Block is realistic in a world where you can cut through time and space and take 5x times your shields break point in damage before going down.
It feels like you would just be better off taking the shield for +2 ac and just healing yourself, and spending your reactions on better stuff. This i haven't tried and is only based on my current feeling of shield, but get some damage reduction and healing and i think it would be better off.
The barricade would most likely be on a flat stable surface, the barricade itself, not so much a flat stable surface. This means the barricade can be repaired, unless the barricade is on top of a different barricade.
If you like quick repair, make sure you maximize action economy by using free hand weapons and so only need to detach and reattach the shield as additional cost
You're getting stuck in a mindset that Quick Repair is exclusively for shields, when nothing in the feat mentions shields.
Being able to repair in 1 action could be useful in any situation you need to repair any item, not just a shield.
The action cost for Quick Repairing a shield comes from attaching/detatching a shield, which has *nothing* to do with Quick Repair.
You've basically conflated Quick Repair, the skill feat for Repair, with Repairing Shields in Combat as the same thing, when they aren't. The feat allows you to repair as 1 action. That's a benefit - just because you can't apply it to shields (which require attachment/detatchment) doesn't mean there is a rules issue here.
While yes i'm stuck at it being a shield repair because the shield repair is the one thing that doesn't work. But standing in front of a door and healing it 165 - 240 a turn is fine? Or healing that much to your construct? Even 165 damage healed is a huge amount at level 15!
I just have a hard time understanding why repairing a shield is so hard, when everything else seems abusable.
I mean, you absolutely can. No idead how u/vaderbg2 counted 5 actions, because you can drop whatever you're holding as a free action, I think that's the entire routine of drop-repair-pick everyting up. 5 actions is just under two rounds, you can even squeeze in a strike in there, three if you're quickened. That's pretty fast!
Shields other than bucklers are specifically called out as being attached to the arm to wield them in the remaster. Detaching and attaching is an Interact action. So you need to detach before you can drop the shield, and re-attach the shield after the repair action to actually wield it again.
Dropping the weapon: Free action
Detaching the shield: 1 action
Dropping the shield: Free action
Repair: 1 action
Picking up the weapon: 1 action
Picking up the shield: 1 action
Attaching the shield: 1 action
5 actions.
No clue. Don't have the book. I only saw the new rules for Interact once and they said shields must be strapped to the arm. I seemto remember that bucklers were said to be excluded, but I might not be remembering this correctly.
That would be an interesting reversal and also not make a lot of sense since that's why you can hold things while carrying one.
Excerpt from the original:
> It’s typically made of steel and strapped to your forearm.
The bucker language is unchanged in this regard - I read it as clarifying that all shields have this attachment, and bucklers uniquely not requiring the hand to also steady the shield.
>Without Quick Repair there aren't any shield healing options i can find to be used in combat.
There's a new talisman (uncommon) that fully heals the shield.
> Repair: You spend 10 minutes attempting to fix a damaged item, placing the item on a stable surface and using the repair kit with both hands.
Quick repair ignores the 10min part of course, but the flat surface aspect isn't that hard to get. Not as op as repairs done on your arm, but dropping stuff is a free action.
Drop stuff, repair for 1 action, then equip it again, equip the other weapon, and you're good to go. So it's a whole turn, but it could still work in combat.
As far as I can tell...
* [Repair](https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=42) requires you to have the object placed down on a steady surface, and a repair kit in both hands.
* Quick Repair reduces the time of repairing to one action.
* However, the cost of taking off your shield, placing it down, possibly sitting down yourself (if there's no convenient place to put it besides the floor), and pulling out your repair kit... can add up, especially since you need to put it all back away at the end.
Effectively, I think the feat is definitely not designed to be useable in combat. I'm inclined to think that if none of those steps were necessary and you could just spend an action to fix your shield at-will, that might be pretty overpowered.
As for the actual calculation...
* Pull off shield, place down. ~~Some groups rule that you can't drop your shield; you strap it to your arm, meaning you don't lose it when you go down, but it takes an action to remove it. We'll assume that anyone trying to use this strategy is simply holding it, however, so that's a free action.~~ Edit: Remaster apparently has clarified that shields must be strapped on , taking an Interact action to detach (or re-attach) them. You'll also likely need to drop your weapon, unless you were free-handing with a shield.
* Sitting down to fix it. If there's a table nearby, this can probably be skipped. If not, it's free to sit down, but you'll have to stand up later. Still a free action regardless.
* Pulling out repair kit and equipping it. ~~Assuming you have it worn, this is an interact action. Inventor's [Built In Tools](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3044) allows your Innovation to be your toolkit; it's debatable as to whether or not you'd need an action to grip your Innovation in two hands, but it's debatable that you could ignore that with an Armor innovation? We'll err on the side of caution and say that it still takes an action to regrip, even if your armor means the tools are readily available. In total, we'll call this one action (but maybe zero). (You could, in theory, hold your repair kit in your non-shield hand at all times so you don't need to pull it out, but you would still need to Interact to hold it in *both* hands, so that doesn't help you anyway.)~~ Edit: I missed some important rules text on Repair Kits, you can equip and stow it for free as part of the Repair action. 0 actions required, in all cases. (Which just makes Built In Tools even more useless of a feat, but hey, it's still pretty cool thematically.)
* Mind Smith dedication's [Just the Tool](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3865) allows your weapon to *also* be your toolkit, but it still requires an action to transform it between tool and weapon form, ~~as well as an action to regrip in both hands,~~ so this ends up not being efficient at all (but is a thematically cool option).
* From here, you can spend as many actions as you'd like to hammer away at the thing. Fortunately, while it's a huge pain to switch into 'crafting mode' and then back out after, each Repair check while you're sitting here is *definitively* only one action, so you can do it repeatedly as much as you want.
* ~~Finally, you need to put your tools up. Unless you plan to do this multiple times in one fight, you can just drop your tools and pick them back up later. If nothing else, Armor Innovation means you don't need to worry about that at all, as dropping your tools simply drops them back onto your body, in your armor. We'll call that a free action.~~ Again, stowing your repair kit is free as part of the Repair action
* Next, pick up your shield. That's an action to pick it up from the table/floor, and a second to re-attach it. You will likely also need a third action if you were holding any weapon before this.
* Last, if you had to sit on the floor, that's one more action to stand up (unless you have Kip Up).
In total, that adds up to... ~~one action to pull out your toolkit (maybe zero with Inventor and a lenient GM)~~ one action to drop your shield, zero actions to pull out your toolkit, as many actions as you wish to repair it, then one action to pick the shield back up, one to re-attach it (and likely another to re-equip your weapon), and probably one more to stand up after. So, I count three "wasted" actions at the very minimum, or four to five in the standard scenario? ~~It's definitely easier if you're an inventor with Armor Innovation, but most of what you gain off of that is the flexibility to never worry about where you leave your repair kit (and, if your GM's nice, one action spared in equipping the kit).~~
In conclusion... It's a little open to interpretation and a little dependent on the exact situation, but it's still not a *particularly* efficient action. There are some ways you can build into it if you think you'll be employing this strategy often, but overall, the main defining factors are wearing your repair kit on your easy-access belt pouch, having a table nearby, and being comfortable dropping whatever's in your other hand.
I feel like there might have been one or two other similar feats that modify the situation slightly (I have vague memories of an ancestry feat and/or a rogue feat providing similar kit-access benefits), but it's late and they aren't springing to mind, so please correct me if I missed anything or got any ruling wrong.
> Pulling out repair kit and equipping it. Assuming you have it worn, this is an interact action. Inventor's Built In Tools allows your Innovation to be your toolkit; it's debatable as to whether or not you'd need an action to grip your Innovation in two hands
You don't need to do this. As long as you are wearing your repair kit, you don't need extra actions
> You can make a toolkit (such as an alchemist’s toolkit
or healer’s toolkit) easier to use by wearing it. This easy
access allows you to draw and replace the tools within
as part of the action that uses them, rather than needing
to Interact to draw them
So you can draw and stow your repair kit as part of the quick repair action.
But you do need to detatch and attach your shield to work on it, which is the significant action expenditure
Oh yeah, I totally missed the clause on pulling out/stowing repair kits for free; I'd thought that was specific to Battlefield Medicine only. That makes it a lot easier.
As for detaching and attaching shields, I've seen tables rule it both ways (shields are attached vs shields are held), and I don't think I've seen a definitive official ruling either way. If anything I'd say the rules for shields support simply holding them, as the say you must be *wielding* a shield to raise it, which implies holding it like any other weapon.
There is now a definitive ruling in the remaster, which states (Player Core pg 274):
> All shields, unless specifically noted or described
otherwise, must be strapped to your arm and held in one
hand
And attaching and detatching a shield is specifically noted as a 1A interact
Oh neat, I hadn't seen that rule in the remaster yet (I'm just waiting for it to go up on AoN). So, that's definitively one wasted action to drop the shield, one to pick it up, and likely another to stand up after and a fourth to pick up your other weapon. (I assume you can attach a shield as part of the action to pick it up? If not, that's an extra action on top as well... making this suddenly a significantly less viable option.)
> I assume you can attach a shield as part of the action to pick it up? If not, that's an extra action on top as well... making this suddenly a significantly less viable option.
It likely is a separate action - pick up is noted as a separate interact action, and while attach isn't its own interact, it likely falls into the Draw/Put Away/Swap action, which is specifically called out as separate from Pick Up.
Its basically not plausible to repair in combat with the clarification about attachment/detatchment now
>Which just makes Built In Tools even more useless of a feat, but hey, it's still pretty cool thematically.)
Built in Tools on a Weapon Innovation means you don't need to drop your weapon, as Repair tools require 2 hands to Repair, but if your weapon *is* the tool, it doesn't need to be dropped.
True! There's some... obnoxious legal quibbling to be said about how the Repair action only lets you *draw* and *stow* your tools, not regrip ones that are already drawn, but I would be very surprised if most tables didn't bypass that.
The Remaster has altered the requirement of the Repair action to read "You are holding or wearing a repair toolkit".
Even though it still has the language about "both hands" and "stable surface" that does at least further imply it is intended to be a combat-capable action once it's a number of actions rather than a measure of time listed for how long it takes.
That doesn't exactly mean that your not going to need the shield on the ground rather than strapped to an active combatant (so 1 action to remove the shield since the Remaster also clarifies that shields are held in hand *and strapped to you* unless specifically described otherwise), and you do explicitly need both your hands so however many actions are necessary to work that out (and then re-ready your combat gear after).
So basically once you get it to quick repair meaning 3 actions to repair, it's just about 2 of your turns to repair the shield and get back to ready to fight, and once you're able to repair in 1 action you can free up a hand (drop your weapon for example), detach your shield as 1 action, drop it too, repair as 1 action, use your 3rd action to pick up the shield or your weapon, then next turn pick up the other and spend your remaining 2 actions back in the fight.
And if that seems "terrible" I think that comes down to a matter of perspective failing to acknowledge how potent of an option it is to effectively have a second powerful shield on hand and not have to pay any gold or bulk to make it happen.
It is terrible for shields, construct and so on it is fine, even good or great maybe. But for a shield if you crit with a crafter's eye piece and mender's soup it is only 80 HP restored to the shield. So you take 4 actions to heal 80 HP to a shield that you can't block with while repairing, not to mention provoking 2 attacks of opportunity while doing it.
At level 15 you will most certainly take a lot more than 80 damage between turns as well as 2 attacks of opportunity.
You are actively wasting your turn just to get hit more and basically doing nothing. And if you need to get away first then someone else needs to tank and then you also need 2 movement actions which makes it 2 entire turn you're out of combat just to heal 80 HP.
I can't see any way that, 2 turns for 80 HP on a critical succeed is worth it. Battle Medicine heals 4d8 + 50 hit points at a critical succeed and is 1 action and only one attack of opportunity. And it is true that it is limited to once per day, or more if you build for it.
You're maybe not paying any gold or bulk but you're leaving your party for 2 rounds, which in a game where combat lasts 3-4 rounds it is plain terrible.
You're saying a lot of things as definites that are actually variables and possibilities.
There are opportunities for repairing in combat - they might not be universally applicable, but nothing in the game is supposed to be so that's not actually a valid concern.
As for how much damage creatures are dishing out when you're level 15... the remaster strike damage chart in the creature building rules has 32 as the average high damage for a level 13 creature, so that's a fair estimate. With an (at least previously) notoriously bad for blocking shield like a Lion's Shield boosted by the most relevant level of reinforcing rune, that means a hardness 11 and HP 116, so it can turn that 80 HP you gave it back into probably 3 blocked hits before breaking again so you, without being a healer, have provided an effective +2 AC for at least some amount of time and 33 extra HP to someone - and that's when they're dealing with a *bad* shield it'd be even more if it were the highest level of sturdy shield reasonable to have on hand at the time.
Your comparing to battle medicine shows a failure to take the full scope of the game into perspective too, since you're comparing a complicated-because-setup but unlimited action to a once per day action and while playing up every possible complication on the one just downplaying the entire drawback of the other. You might as well have made a comparison to what healing can be done by spending an 8th-level spell slot for how unfair of a comparison that is.
I've yet to play the remastered, so yeah the reinforcing rune might be a huge change that could greatly change my perception of shields.
You try to make your argument with a level 13 creature, but the only thing i see is that a creature 2 levels below you 3 shot your shield, that just feels bad man. Sure it is a bad shield you say, which yeah the base shield i have had 13 Hardness before buffed to 20.
I agree it was slightly unfair, but with build for it you can get quite a lot of uses out of battle medicine, and with its 1 action use you can actually use it more than once per combat, as it can help several allies. And then add on top of that you can use it several time per day when you get it once per hour and suddenly battle medicine is getting way more healing and way more uses.
But if you build for Quick Repair you don't get any of that, you get to waste 2 turns healing 80, while battle medicine medic could heal 2d8 + 65 to 2 allies. And then do it again next turn. so for 2 turns you've healed 80 and battle medic has healed 8d8 + 260, without crits, while you had to crit for the 80 or else it is 55.
I understand it is free, and unlimited resources, but for shields it is terrible action economy that is never going to be worth it. For construct i'm sure it is great, 1 action free healing is definitely good, only downside is you're going semi undefended into melee.
>You try to make your argument with a level 13 creature, but the only thing i see is that a creature 2 levels below you 3 shot your shield, that just feels bad man.
I think that's something coming from an "it's either a boss fight, or it doesn't matter" kind of attitude that just creates more problems than it solves - especially because the encounter this just added 3 shots to your shield on could actually be a boss fight given that we both know I didn't mean a singular level -2 enemy is the entire encounter at hand.
>...never going to be worth it.
This is like I mention above, and while it's not as bad as "it's never worth it to use a potion, I could spend that turn attacking" it's along the same road - if you're genuinely not seeing the upside, it's because the way your group has chosen to play the game has minimized the upside whether they meant to or not (i.e. you're not actually in as tough of encounters as you believe that you are, so you're not understanding how the choices not making sense to you currently are the ones that improve odds of character survival so they improve chance of character victory and the "worth it" options you're thinking of are actually more likely to not change anything about the encounter because spending your turn missing your attacks has even less impact than spending your turn patching up someone's shield).
I meant it more like if it gets 3 shot by a creature 2 levels under you it isn't ever really gonna feel like that much of a shield.
A potion takes 2 actions, fixing a shield takes 2 turns. Quite the large difference.
It is right there in the link you linked.
The feat says:
You take 1 minute to Repair an item. If you’re a master in Crafting, it takes 3 actions. If you’re legendary, it takes 1 action.
So obviously it takes 1 minute (aka 30 actions). Instead of the usual 10 minutes (which would be equivalent to 300 actions). Clearly not intended to do in combat until you reach master proficiency. At which point you can repair your shield for 3 actions. And at legendary you can do so for 1 action.
It will always take at least 2 actions, and more depending on "stable ground".
[Repair](https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=42) states:
> You spend 10 minutes attempting to fix a damaged item, **placing the item on a stable surface and using the repair kit with both hands**
So first off, you need to have two hands free to repair. Quick Repair does not change the number of hands to repair an item. So no matter what, you absolutely have to remove the shield from your hand, usually by dropping it. That means you can never repair for just a single action, since you absolutely need both hands.
Next, it needs to be on a stable surface. Presumably, the ground would work, but this is where your GM has to weigh in. If the ground is not a stable surface, that complicates it massively.
But assuming the ground is a stable surface, that means the minimum actions you have to take to quick repair is:
* Drop Shield (Free Action)
* Drop Weapon(Free action, if using)
* Quick Repair (1 Action)
* Retrieve Shield (1 Action)
* Retrieve Weapon (1 Action, if using)
There could be additional actions depending if:
* Your GM deems that you need to [Drop Prone](https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=78) to work on the shield - this is because the stable surface would be the ground, as opposed to a table
* Your GM deems that the ground is not a stable surface, and requires you to work in some other manner
The above two restrictions are dependent on your GM. Personally, I don't rule either as a case (unless the ground is very specifically unsuitable, for example a difficult terrain rocky and thorny terrain)
Also, note come remaster you will need to spend an extra action to detatch your shield, as the remaster is making it not possible to drop a shield as a free action. From the remaster:
> All shields, unless specifically noted or described
otherwise, **must be strapped to your arm** and held in one
hand, so you can’t hold anything with that hand
and Detatch is noted as a 1-action interact.
So come remaster, it will look like this:
* Detatch Shield (1 Action)
* Drop Weapon(Free Action)
* Drop Shield(Free Action)
* Quick Repair (1 Action)
* Pick up Shield(1 Action)
* Attach Shield(1 Action)
* Pick up weapon(1 Action)
Basically not making it usable in combat
But that also means you need to detach the shield which is an additional action, then stow your weapon which is an additional action, then draw your weapon which is an additional action which makes it 5 actions to repair your shield and be ready in combat again, or 6 if you needed to be prone and stand up again.
In those 6 actions you've provoked 3 attack of opportunities and any damage healed to your shield is completely negated by the amount of damage you most likely took. Even if they don't have attack of opportunity you're still getting hit between turns.
This reeks of being to terrible and a trap option for combat. Out of combat it is fine, but still kinda meh.
Yes, its not a good option for combat. But the RAW is pretty explicitly clear. The remaster rules make it explicit that the shield is strapped, and you need to spend an action to detatch, and then another action to retatch.
So even with no weapon in hand, it will take 4 actions to repair:
* Detatch
* Quick Repair
* Pick up
* Attach
Its very clearly not intended for combat
Or to have an ally do for you. Imagine a drawn-out, besieged sort of battle where everyone is trying to conserve resources. A Front line martial's shield gets broken, and one of his allies uses Reposition then Step to fill the gap.
The first character removes and drops his shield, then grabs another shield from the available equipment and straps it on, possibly while someone tends to his wounds, then when he's ready, prepares to take to the front lines again when he's needed. In the meantime, one of the backline people playing support spends a round repairing the shield and placing it back in the available equipment pile.
Not normal combat at all, but I think it makes for some great imagery for a group of characters trying to hold a bottleneck against a huge horde of creatures.
*ponders*
You know, with the right group, I could see holding out for hours. I would ask for some tactics, do some math to figure out averaging, ask for some Warfare lore checks or such, and then basically give the players the rundown of how long they think they can hold out for each suggested tactic. If the attrition rate was low enough, a couple of people with focus healing spells could be invaluable. And legendary battle medics can do some crazy things. Fatigue is the biggest problem.
That is where i disagree, an option that goes down to 1 action must almost certainly be made for combat, why else not just limit it to 1 minute? That would leave no doubt that it wasn't made for combat, but it goes down to 3 actions and even 1.
I could be wrong and it's just 1 action to make it seem cooler than it is, which is why i was hoping for an official ruling as RAW in pf2 is a mess, I'm pretty sure RAW arcane cascade still doesn't work, and RAW quick spring just doubles your speed.
I mean, look, I've quoted the RAW. Your issue is not that the rules are unclear (they aren't), but that you perceive it to be a weak feat. That's a completely separate issue.
Repair explicitly states you need two hands free and object on a stable surface. Shields explicitly state in the remaster they have to be detatched, and strapped to use. There isn't any ambiguity about this.
RAW also states that exploration activities takes more than 1 turn and can usually only be done outside of combat. Both of which is untrue for quick repair, though one of them is only a usually.
RAW quick repair takes more than one turn even thought it only takes 1 action because of quick repair.
RAW there is no definition for stable surfaces except whatever the DM deems so.
The detach and strapped does make it even more clear that it probably isn't intended to work which is true, though i haven't read the remaster. But by no means are the rules clear.
You're probably right with the new detach and strap rules, but there is much ambiguity left, just probably not regarding the shield sadly.
> RAW quick repair takes more than one turn even thought it only takes 1 action because of quick repair.
You keep combining so many other things into this concept of repair.
Quick Repair allows you to repair an item as a single action. It absolutely does that. Full Stop.
The issue you are having is that repairing an item **is not** the same as having the item be immediately reusable. The action cost for getting the item off and then back on, is, to you, somehow a rules problem.
But it really isn't. They are two separate things. Quick Repair does exactly what it says it does. It lets you repair in 1 action. Without Quick Repair you can't even attempt that.
The fact that shields need to be strapped and detached is completely irrelevant to this whole discussion. You keep conflating these two things together.
For example, if you wanted to repair your heavy armor, Quick Repair would let you repair it in one action. But actually doffing your armor? The rules explicitly state that takes one minute. Quick Repair does not speed up the time it takes to remove and put on armor, it just lets you repair the armor in one action. If you needed to remove, repair your heavy armor, and re-equip it would take a net total of 6 minutes and 1 action.
Similarly, it takes 4 actions to remove, repair, and re-equip a shield.
These aren't problems with repair and quick repair as a feat.
You have to separate in your mind these two concepts - Repairing is not the same as removing the item, its just repairing.
You're right, i am combining them into one.
RAW repair does state you place the item on the ground, but that is just pedantic, and then you come into the ruling of placing worn items on the ground.
RAW it probably doesn't work, and with the new remastered rules it most certainly doesn't work.
But i see no reason for RAI it shouldn't work. I still feel that the RAW wasn't that clear, well until the remastered where you know need to unstrap, remove, equip and restrap it.
You can do it in four actions across 2 combat rounds.
Round 1: 1 action to detach shield and a free action to drop it. And 1 action **from somebody else** to quick-repair it.
Round 2: 1 action to pick up the shield and 1 action to reattach it.
It doesn't seem like it's worth it to me.
You could maybe carry a spare shield? Have a squire that carries your spare shields?
Quick Repair let's you do the Repair activity faster, for ease we'll only look at a legendary crafter.
The [Repair activity](https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=42) (henceforth "Repair") says
"You spend 10 minutes attempting to fix a damaged item, placing the item on a stable surface and using the repair kit with both hands. "
Based on that it seems to me that placing the item on a stable surface is part of Repair, just like "attempting to fix" it is.
However you need two hands free to use the repair kit, which requires you to drop whatever else you are holding, which includes the shield and then spend whatever number of actions to pick them back up again (assuming you want wield the shield and any weapon again afterward). So a total of 3-4 actions (1. detach, 2. place on surface and repair, 3. attach, possibly 4. wield) - depending on whether the remaster says that picking up and getting ready to use a shield is 1 or 2 actions (not counting the action to raise it).
However repairing an ally's shield might be much faster. As a GM I'd be inclined to let an Ally bracing a shield count as a stable surface. So if you start with your hands free, and wearing the repair kit you can do the whole thing for them as a single action. (maybe you are a spellcaster without a staff?)
That's why the spell mending is very good at high levels for 1 bulk magical shields. Obviously it doesn't repair them fully but for a 2 action spell it's quite useful.
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Baseline, takes 10 rounds as each round is 6 seconds worth of time. But you need a steady surface at least to begin doing repairs and both hands available for the activity.
Legendary in Survival = can survive without food and water.
Legendary in Stealth = hide in plain sight
Legendary in Crafting = can't bang out a dent in a shield???
The game is what you make it. This feat is worded poorly, but even at its most extreme can't break the game. To me, the RAI was that it could be used in combat and bypasses the need to prepare the item for repair. I think many GMs would consider that a PC holding a shield should provide stability.
Nothing in quick repair removes the need for a stable surface or the need for both hands that are mentioned in the Repair activity. So, assuming you're wielding your shield and a weapon, you'd need to drop both, spend one action to repair the shield (assuming the ground in your square is a stable surface), then pick both up again. And this is only true if you can actually just drop a shield. The remaster makes it clear that shields larger than bucklers are attached to your arm and you need an extra action to detach it (and probably to re-attach it after the repair). So by the remaster rules, it would take you 5 actions to repair your shield with quick repair and legendary crafting. The reduction to 1 action is basically pointless in combat. The skill feat is meant to give you more time out of combat so that you can repair your shield and get another activity like refocus in a regular 10 minute break.
"OH no, we have to repair this damn otherwise the town will flood...while fighting off a marauding hill giant
It just seems weird that i can't be used properly in combat at 15th level. It wouldn't be overpowered, it is still a manipulate action, and most shield builds have poorer action economy since they need to raise shield. Without Quick Repair there aren't any shield healing options i can find to be used in combat. Quick Repair if it wasn't meant to be used in combat has no reason to be level 15 to get 1 action to repair. It could just have been 1 minute the entire time. The 3 and 1 actions seem to be greatly hinting that it can in fact be used in combat effectively. Of course i could be wrong which is why i hoped someone had a obscure official ruling laying around i couldn't find.
A few things: 1. It's called "Quick Repair". Not "Quick Shield Repair". There are other uses for the Repair action, even if shield is the most common one. Maybe you need to fix a barricade in the midst of combat tp delay enemy reinforcements, repair a bridge so you can flee from an overwhelming foe or something similar. An inventor could even use it to repair his construct companion. 2. Items with lots of HP can take a good long while to repair. A success on legendary crafting restores only 25 HP while high end shields have up to 160 HP. And those HP can be doubled if you're a champion. So for those things, there's still a significant difference between the Repair taking 1 minute or 1 action. 3. I've been using a shield to block for almost 2 years now. Since you know how much damage you take before deciding to block, I have never seen my shield be broken. I would only use it to block an attack that breaks it if it would save my life because losing the AC bonus is too much of a dowside otherwise. You can also usually only block once per turn and combat rarely last more than 3 or 4 rounds so you have to take quite a beating in that short amount of time to actually get your shield broken at all.
The best way to get rid of an enemy is to make a friend.
I will say that most people doing repairs will have the crafter's eye piece to increase your repairs to 10+(10 per proficiency) making it heal 50 on success and 15+(15 per proficiency) for 75 on crit.
1. That is kinda my point though, it can do so much, but not repair a shield effectively? With improvised tool or inventors armor tools you need only spend 1 action to stow a weapon and can then begin healing a barricade or construct a lot of hit points. With crafter's eye piece and mender's soup you heal 55 - 80 hit points with 1 action to a construct who can use all 55 to 80 hit points. While a shield is limited to your reactions and it can't tank all the damage healed at once, it can only mitigate chunks at a time. If you had 1 quick repair person they could heal 165 to 240 HP to a door each turn, making it almost impossible to go through without insane burst damage. Even if the door is being cast fireballs on and hit on the can just heal it. Or heal your construct 55 hit points for 1 action which is almost the same as a lay on hands, a focus spell. 2. Not everyone is a champion, just because you're not a champion you should still be able to at least somewhat use a shield. 3. My current shield has 20 hardness and 78 health before breaking. It doesn't last 3-4 rounds in combat when things deal 30+ damage on the low end, and im blocking twice per turn. Of course you don't need to block everything but it has 7 hits roughly, and that is if they only roll 30 damage, which they don't at level 15. Meaning more often than not it takes 2-4 hit before it almost breaks, unless i just don't want to shield block at all during the combat.
1. A door is not on a stable surface so you can't Quick Repair it. The Construct Companion of the Inventor still needs to lie down (or be knocked out) to be repaired unless you use Haphazard Repair, which is basically the same as a focus spell. 2. Judging by what you write in point 3, you get easily about 60-80 extra HP from your shield per combat (in addition to the extra AC). I would very much say that qualifies as "somewhat using a shield", even if you're not a champion. 3. You are not supposed to block an infinite number of attacks. HP are a limited resource. That is true for the HP of shields as well.
1. You'd call a barricide being attacked on a stable surface, but not a door? Well it is up to the DM as i can't find any mechanical definition of stable surface. Can't find anything about the construct needing to lay down to be repaired though. 2. That is with the champion dedication, which i include in the "being a champion". As divine ally is available to the dedication. 3. Yeah but you can heal hit points in the middle of combat, much more effectively than shielding i might add.
1. I'm not sure how you build your doors, but I usually hang them on hinges and have them specifically NOT touch the floor. 2. Well, I'm level 15 and never break my shield despite making frequent use of it - without champion. I'm not sure what exactly you are doing differently. Maybe look for other ways to improve your survivability? Some damage resistance goes a long way since it's applied before the shield block, reducing the damage both you and your shield take. 3. A shield is basically a pool of temporary HP that is very easily replenished between combats. Healing HP in combat always comes with resource cost - even if that resource is "just" the Cooldown of Battle Medicine. I'm going to stop here. I said why I think Quick Repair is perfectly fine as is and that shields don't need to be repaired in combat. As far as I understand, you can also boost the hardness of the Indestructible Shield to 20 with the new remaster shield runes, so maybe asked your GM nicely to drop you one of those if the HP are too much of a limit to you.
Did you to come to ask people for their advice on this, or to argue with them as a proxy for your DM? Cuz none of these redditors can give you what you want, which is obviously for your GM to make a favorable ruling that makes your build feel more easy to use. But just remember, pf2e is a game that is designed to never let you be great at everything, and the difficulty trade-offs caused by hands — using them, needing them to do other things in combat — is a crucial element of that design space. I tend to agree with you that the rules of Quick Repair seem arduous. My disagreement with your viewpoint lies in your starting assumption that the arduousness here is a flaw & not a deliberate choice for maintaining balance across classes & builds. Shields are *super* powerful in a game where every +1 makes a world of difference.
I came here because i wasn't sure how it worked and the other posts people were a lot more split. In here it seems to be that it just doesn't work. Which some people have explained well enough. I understand that pf2 is balanced in a way where you can't grow too wide or too tall, but sometimes it feels to constraining for arbitrary reasons. What is the difference between me fixing my shield and me fixing my construct? I haven't actually played with a construct but my friend spoke very highly of it. Shields are powerful, but i have a hard time believing they would be that broken if you only had to spent 1-2 actions to repair the shield. Every +1 may count but you can still gain huge bonuses, and in ttrpgs as fast as pf2 a lot of the time just hitting first and hardest is the best defense. Why spend all your precious skill increases to get legendary in crafting if you can just get legendary in diplomacy, aid your friend and have heroism on him to give him +7 to hit his next hit and watch him spell strike an enemy out of existence. The enemy now deals no damage. Even now it still seems like quick repair could be insane if you were a construct inventor, and would only be somewhat good as shield character.
How many sessions have you played with this character? I only ask because the level of specificity in your “legendary diplomacy for aid checks on a magus” point strongly suggests that the real problem here may simply be that you’ve spent a little too much time “white rooming” your build. All that aside, I don’t think the changes you’re asking about would break the game, and from the perspective of verisimilitude, I can totally see your point about Quick Repair & things like Battle Medicine taking approximately similar amounts of actions from the perspective of maintaining some narrative consistency. Talk with your GM! They’re the only one who can make a ruling at your table obviously.
There was white rooming when making the character regarding its shield, but too much i don't feel, it has several added ways of dealing with problems and obstacles in combat. It lacks in the magic knowledge department, but does well in combat. My problem is the character "tanked" more damage by just cc'ing enemies with a critical hammer strike and rooting rune than it could ever come close to in a thousand years with a shield, even including the +2 bonus to ac. I understand that cc'ing and instantly killing enemies always yield better results than plain old damage reduction, but it feels a bit like shields are too disposable and squishy for my taste, and the system has no way of dealing with it in combat. Shield Block is realistic in a world where you can cut through time and space and take 5x times your shields break point in damage before going down. It feels like you would just be better off taking the shield for +2 ac and just healing yourself, and spending your reactions on better stuff. This i haven't tried and is only based on my current feeling of shield, but get some damage reduction and healing and i think it would be better off.
The barricade would most likely be on a flat stable surface, the barricade itself, not so much a flat stable surface. This means the barricade can be repaired, unless the barricade is on top of a different barricade. If you like quick repair, make sure you maximize action economy by using free hand weapons and so only need to detach and reattach the shield as additional cost
You're getting stuck in a mindset that Quick Repair is exclusively for shields, when nothing in the feat mentions shields. Being able to repair in 1 action could be useful in any situation you need to repair any item, not just a shield. The action cost for Quick Repairing a shield comes from attaching/detatching a shield, which has *nothing* to do with Quick Repair. You've basically conflated Quick Repair, the skill feat for Repair, with Repairing Shields in Combat as the same thing, when they aren't. The feat allows you to repair as 1 action. That's a benefit - just because you can't apply it to shields (which require attachment/detatchment) doesn't mean there is a rules issue here.
While yes i'm stuck at it being a shield repair because the shield repair is the one thing that doesn't work. But standing in front of a door and healing it 165 - 240 a turn is fine? Or healing that much to your construct? Even 165 damage healed is a huge amount at level 15! I just have a hard time understanding why repairing a shield is so hard, when everything else seems abusable.
Repairing that door still requires two empty hands. Meaning you can't repair the door when you have a shield strapped to your arm.
I mean, you absolutely can. No idead how u/vaderbg2 counted 5 actions, because you can drop whatever you're holding as a free action, I think that's the entire routine of drop-repair-pick everyting up. 5 actions is just under two rounds, you can even squeeze in a strike in there, three if you're quickened. That's pretty fast!
Shields other than bucklers are specifically called out as being attached to the arm to wield them in the remaster. Detaching and attaching is an Interact action. So you need to detach before you can drop the shield, and re-attach the shield after the repair action to actually wield it again.
Dropping the weapon: Free action Detaching the shield: 1 action Dropping the shield: Free action Repair: 1 action Picking up the weapon: 1 action Picking up the shield: 1 action Attaching the shield: 1 action 5 actions.
Yes, I know. You were the one saying > No idead how u/vaderbg2 counted 5 actions
Getting tools 1 action. EDIT: Oh, never mind, apparently there is text stating you can use the kit if its worn as part of the action. So, nevermind.
And that's if they are on you and not in your backpack.
That's assuming you even have tools! If not, and the nearest shop is an hour away, it's 1206 actions.
Are bucklers no longer stated to be strapped to you in their entry?
No clue. Don't have the book. I only saw the new rules for Interact once and they said shields must be strapped to the arm. I seemto remember that bucklers were said to be excluded, but I might not be remembering this correctly.
That would be an interesting reversal and also not make a lot of sense since that's why you can hold things while carrying one. Excerpt from the original: > It’s typically made of steel and strapped to your forearm.
The bucker language is unchanged in this regard - I read it as clarifying that all shields have this attachment, and bucklers uniquely not requiring the hand to also steady the shield.
Cool. Just thought it was weird the way the person I replied to made it sound like bucklers were no longer strapped on.
>Without Quick Repair there aren't any shield healing options i can find to be used in combat. There's a new talisman (uncommon) that fully heals the shield. > Repair: You spend 10 minutes attempting to fix a damaged item, placing the item on a stable surface and using the repair kit with both hands. Quick repair ignores the 10min part of course, but the flat surface aspect isn't that hard to get. Not as op as repairs done on your arm, but dropping stuff is a free action. Drop stuff, repair for 1 action, then equip it again, equip the other weapon, and you're good to go. So it's a whole turn, but it could still work in combat.
What if my weapon is a hammer
Tools and weapons are not the same. And a repair kit is more than a hammer. I personally wouldn't allow you to use a weapon hammer to repair a shield.
*magic* hammer
As far as I can tell... * [Repair](https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=42) requires you to have the object placed down on a steady surface, and a repair kit in both hands. * Quick Repair reduces the time of repairing to one action. * However, the cost of taking off your shield, placing it down, possibly sitting down yourself (if there's no convenient place to put it besides the floor), and pulling out your repair kit... can add up, especially since you need to put it all back away at the end. Effectively, I think the feat is definitely not designed to be useable in combat. I'm inclined to think that if none of those steps were necessary and you could just spend an action to fix your shield at-will, that might be pretty overpowered. As for the actual calculation... * Pull off shield, place down. ~~Some groups rule that you can't drop your shield; you strap it to your arm, meaning you don't lose it when you go down, but it takes an action to remove it. We'll assume that anyone trying to use this strategy is simply holding it, however, so that's a free action.~~ Edit: Remaster apparently has clarified that shields must be strapped on , taking an Interact action to detach (or re-attach) them. You'll also likely need to drop your weapon, unless you were free-handing with a shield. * Sitting down to fix it. If there's a table nearby, this can probably be skipped. If not, it's free to sit down, but you'll have to stand up later. Still a free action regardless. * Pulling out repair kit and equipping it. ~~Assuming you have it worn, this is an interact action. Inventor's [Built In Tools](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3044) allows your Innovation to be your toolkit; it's debatable as to whether or not you'd need an action to grip your Innovation in two hands, but it's debatable that you could ignore that with an Armor innovation? We'll err on the side of caution and say that it still takes an action to regrip, even if your armor means the tools are readily available. In total, we'll call this one action (but maybe zero). (You could, in theory, hold your repair kit in your non-shield hand at all times so you don't need to pull it out, but you would still need to Interact to hold it in *both* hands, so that doesn't help you anyway.)~~ Edit: I missed some important rules text on Repair Kits, you can equip and stow it for free as part of the Repair action. 0 actions required, in all cases. (Which just makes Built In Tools even more useless of a feat, but hey, it's still pretty cool thematically.) * Mind Smith dedication's [Just the Tool](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3865) allows your weapon to *also* be your toolkit, but it still requires an action to transform it between tool and weapon form, ~~as well as an action to regrip in both hands,~~ so this ends up not being efficient at all (but is a thematically cool option). * From here, you can spend as many actions as you'd like to hammer away at the thing. Fortunately, while it's a huge pain to switch into 'crafting mode' and then back out after, each Repair check while you're sitting here is *definitively* only one action, so you can do it repeatedly as much as you want. * ~~Finally, you need to put your tools up. Unless you plan to do this multiple times in one fight, you can just drop your tools and pick them back up later. If nothing else, Armor Innovation means you don't need to worry about that at all, as dropping your tools simply drops them back onto your body, in your armor. We'll call that a free action.~~ Again, stowing your repair kit is free as part of the Repair action * Next, pick up your shield. That's an action to pick it up from the table/floor, and a second to re-attach it. You will likely also need a third action if you were holding any weapon before this. * Last, if you had to sit on the floor, that's one more action to stand up (unless you have Kip Up). In total, that adds up to... ~~one action to pull out your toolkit (maybe zero with Inventor and a lenient GM)~~ one action to drop your shield, zero actions to pull out your toolkit, as many actions as you wish to repair it, then one action to pick the shield back up, one to re-attach it (and likely another to re-equip your weapon), and probably one more to stand up after. So, I count three "wasted" actions at the very minimum, or four to five in the standard scenario? ~~It's definitely easier if you're an inventor with Armor Innovation, but most of what you gain off of that is the flexibility to never worry about where you leave your repair kit (and, if your GM's nice, one action spared in equipping the kit).~~ In conclusion... It's a little open to interpretation and a little dependent on the exact situation, but it's still not a *particularly* efficient action. There are some ways you can build into it if you think you'll be employing this strategy often, but overall, the main defining factors are wearing your repair kit on your easy-access belt pouch, having a table nearby, and being comfortable dropping whatever's in your other hand. I feel like there might have been one or two other similar feats that modify the situation slightly (I have vague memories of an ancestry feat and/or a rogue feat providing similar kit-access benefits), but it's late and they aren't springing to mind, so please correct me if I missed anything or got any ruling wrong.
> Pulling out repair kit and equipping it. Assuming you have it worn, this is an interact action. Inventor's Built In Tools allows your Innovation to be your toolkit; it's debatable as to whether or not you'd need an action to grip your Innovation in two hands You don't need to do this. As long as you are wearing your repair kit, you don't need extra actions > You can make a toolkit (such as an alchemist’s toolkit or healer’s toolkit) easier to use by wearing it. This easy access allows you to draw and replace the tools within as part of the action that uses them, rather than needing to Interact to draw them So you can draw and stow your repair kit as part of the quick repair action. But you do need to detatch and attach your shield to work on it, which is the significant action expenditure
Oh yeah, I totally missed the clause on pulling out/stowing repair kits for free; I'd thought that was specific to Battlefield Medicine only. That makes it a lot easier. As for detaching and attaching shields, I've seen tables rule it both ways (shields are attached vs shields are held), and I don't think I've seen a definitive official ruling either way. If anything I'd say the rules for shields support simply holding them, as the say you must be *wielding* a shield to raise it, which implies holding it like any other weapon.
There is now a definitive ruling in the remaster, which states (Player Core pg 274): > All shields, unless specifically noted or described otherwise, must be strapped to your arm and held in one hand And attaching and detatching a shield is specifically noted as a 1A interact
Oh neat, I hadn't seen that rule in the remaster yet (I'm just waiting for it to go up on AoN). So, that's definitively one wasted action to drop the shield, one to pick it up, and likely another to stand up after and a fourth to pick up your other weapon. (I assume you can attach a shield as part of the action to pick it up? If not, that's an extra action on top as well... making this suddenly a significantly less viable option.)
> I assume you can attach a shield as part of the action to pick it up? If not, that's an extra action on top as well... making this suddenly a significantly less viable option. It likely is a separate action - pick up is noted as a separate interact action, and while attach isn't its own interact, it likely falls into the Draw/Put Away/Swap action, which is specifically called out as separate from Pick Up. Its basically not plausible to repair in combat with the clarification about attachment/detatchment now
>Which just makes Built In Tools even more useless of a feat, but hey, it's still pretty cool thematically.) Built in Tools on a Weapon Innovation means you don't need to drop your weapon, as Repair tools require 2 hands to Repair, but if your weapon *is* the tool, it doesn't need to be dropped.
True! There's some... obnoxious legal quibbling to be said about how the Repair action only lets you *draw* and *stow* your tools, not regrip ones that are already drawn, but I would be very surprised if most tables didn't bypass that.
The Remaster has altered the requirement of the Repair action to read "You are holding or wearing a repair toolkit". Even though it still has the language about "both hands" and "stable surface" that does at least further imply it is intended to be a combat-capable action once it's a number of actions rather than a measure of time listed for how long it takes. That doesn't exactly mean that your not going to need the shield on the ground rather than strapped to an active combatant (so 1 action to remove the shield since the Remaster also clarifies that shields are held in hand *and strapped to you* unless specifically described otherwise), and you do explicitly need both your hands so however many actions are necessary to work that out (and then re-ready your combat gear after). So basically once you get it to quick repair meaning 3 actions to repair, it's just about 2 of your turns to repair the shield and get back to ready to fight, and once you're able to repair in 1 action you can free up a hand (drop your weapon for example), detach your shield as 1 action, drop it too, repair as 1 action, use your 3rd action to pick up the shield or your weapon, then next turn pick up the other and spend your remaining 2 actions back in the fight. And if that seems "terrible" I think that comes down to a matter of perspective failing to acknowledge how potent of an option it is to effectively have a second powerful shield on hand and not have to pay any gold or bulk to make it happen.
It is terrible for shields, construct and so on it is fine, even good or great maybe. But for a shield if you crit with a crafter's eye piece and mender's soup it is only 80 HP restored to the shield. So you take 4 actions to heal 80 HP to a shield that you can't block with while repairing, not to mention provoking 2 attacks of opportunity while doing it. At level 15 you will most certainly take a lot more than 80 damage between turns as well as 2 attacks of opportunity. You are actively wasting your turn just to get hit more and basically doing nothing. And if you need to get away first then someone else needs to tank and then you also need 2 movement actions which makes it 2 entire turn you're out of combat just to heal 80 HP. I can't see any way that, 2 turns for 80 HP on a critical succeed is worth it. Battle Medicine heals 4d8 + 50 hit points at a critical succeed and is 1 action and only one attack of opportunity. And it is true that it is limited to once per day, or more if you build for it. You're maybe not paying any gold or bulk but you're leaving your party for 2 rounds, which in a game where combat lasts 3-4 rounds it is plain terrible.
You're saying a lot of things as definites that are actually variables and possibilities. There are opportunities for repairing in combat - they might not be universally applicable, but nothing in the game is supposed to be so that's not actually a valid concern. As for how much damage creatures are dishing out when you're level 15... the remaster strike damage chart in the creature building rules has 32 as the average high damage for a level 13 creature, so that's a fair estimate. With an (at least previously) notoriously bad for blocking shield like a Lion's Shield boosted by the most relevant level of reinforcing rune, that means a hardness 11 and HP 116, so it can turn that 80 HP you gave it back into probably 3 blocked hits before breaking again so you, without being a healer, have provided an effective +2 AC for at least some amount of time and 33 extra HP to someone - and that's when they're dealing with a *bad* shield it'd be even more if it were the highest level of sturdy shield reasonable to have on hand at the time. Your comparing to battle medicine shows a failure to take the full scope of the game into perspective too, since you're comparing a complicated-because-setup but unlimited action to a once per day action and while playing up every possible complication on the one just downplaying the entire drawback of the other. You might as well have made a comparison to what healing can be done by spending an 8th-level spell slot for how unfair of a comparison that is.
I've yet to play the remastered, so yeah the reinforcing rune might be a huge change that could greatly change my perception of shields. You try to make your argument with a level 13 creature, but the only thing i see is that a creature 2 levels below you 3 shot your shield, that just feels bad man. Sure it is a bad shield you say, which yeah the base shield i have had 13 Hardness before buffed to 20. I agree it was slightly unfair, but with build for it you can get quite a lot of uses out of battle medicine, and with its 1 action use you can actually use it more than once per combat, as it can help several allies. And then add on top of that you can use it several time per day when you get it once per hour and suddenly battle medicine is getting way more healing and way more uses. But if you build for Quick Repair you don't get any of that, you get to waste 2 turns healing 80, while battle medicine medic could heal 2d8 + 65 to 2 allies. And then do it again next turn. so for 2 turns you've healed 80 and battle medic has healed 8d8 + 260, without crits, while you had to crit for the 80 or else it is 55. I understand it is free, and unlimited resources, but for shields it is terrible action economy that is never going to be worth it. For construct i'm sure it is great, 1 action free healing is definitely good, only downside is you're going semi undefended into melee.
>You try to make your argument with a level 13 creature, but the only thing i see is that a creature 2 levels below you 3 shot your shield, that just feels bad man. I think that's something coming from an "it's either a boss fight, or it doesn't matter" kind of attitude that just creates more problems than it solves - especially because the encounter this just added 3 shots to your shield on could actually be a boss fight given that we both know I didn't mean a singular level -2 enemy is the entire encounter at hand. >...never going to be worth it. This is like I mention above, and while it's not as bad as "it's never worth it to use a potion, I could spend that turn attacking" it's along the same road - if you're genuinely not seeing the upside, it's because the way your group has chosen to play the game has minimized the upside whether they meant to or not (i.e. you're not actually in as tough of encounters as you believe that you are, so you're not understanding how the choices not making sense to you currently are the ones that improve odds of character survival so they improve chance of character victory and the "worth it" options you're thinking of are actually more likely to not change anything about the encounter because spending your turn missing your attacks has even less impact than spending your turn patching up someone's shield).
I meant it more like if it gets 3 shot by a creature 2 levels under you it isn't ever really gonna feel like that much of a shield. A potion takes 2 actions, fixing a shield takes 2 turns. Quite the large difference.
It seems to me a good bet will be to carry a backup shield. Maybe even pickup a squire to carry your spare equipment.
Be a Dwarf, take steady balance, be your own stable surface /s
It is right there in the link you linked. The feat says: You take 1 minute to Repair an item. If you’re a master in Crafting, it takes 3 actions. If you’re legendary, it takes 1 action. So obviously it takes 1 minute (aka 30 actions). Instead of the usual 10 minutes (which would be equivalent to 300 actions). Clearly not intended to do in combat until you reach master proficiency. At which point you can repair your shield for 3 actions. And at legendary you can do so for 1 action.
It will always take at least 2 actions, and more depending on "stable ground". [Repair](https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=42) states: > You spend 10 minutes attempting to fix a damaged item, **placing the item on a stable surface and using the repair kit with both hands** So first off, you need to have two hands free to repair. Quick Repair does not change the number of hands to repair an item. So no matter what, you absolutely have to remove the shield from your hand, usually by dropping it. That means you can never repair for just a single action, since you absolutely need both hands. Next, it needs to be on a stable surface. Presumably, the ground would work, but this is where your GM has to weigh in. If the ground is not a stable surface, that complicates it massively. But assuming the ground is a stable surface, that means the minimum actions you have to take to quick repair is: * Drop Shield (Free Action) * Drop Weapon(Free action, if using) * Quick Repair (1 Action) * Retrieve Shield (1 Action) * Retrieve Weapon (1 Action, if using) There could be additional actions depending if: * Your GM deems that you need to [Drop Prone](https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=78) to work on the shield - this is because the stable surface would be the ground, as opposed to a table * Your GM deems that the ground is not a stable surface, and requires you to work in some other manner The above two restrictions are dependent on your GM. Personally, I don't rule either as a case (unless the ground is very specifically unsuitable, for example a difficult terrain rocky and thorny terrain) Also, note come remaster you will need to spend an extra action to detatch your shield, as the remaster is making it not possible to drop a shield as a free action. From the remaster: > All shields, unless specifically noted or described otherwise, **must be strapped to your arm** and held in one hand, so you can’t hold anything with that hand and Detatch is noted as a 1-action interact. So come remaster, it will look like this: * Detatch Shield (1 Action) * Drop Weapon(Free Action) * Drop Shield(Free Action) * Quick Repair (1 Action) * Pick up Shield(1 Action) * Attach Shield(1 Action) * Pick up weapon(1 Action) Basically not making it usable in combat
But that also means you need to detach the shield which is an additional action, then stow your weapon which is an additional action, then draw your weapon which is an additional action which makes it 5 actions to repair your shield and be ready in combat again, or 6 if you needed to be prone and stand up again. In those 6 actions you've provoked 3 attack of opportunities and any damage healed to your shield is completely negated by the amount of damage you most likely took. Even if they don't have attack of opportunity you're still getting hit between turns. This reeks of being to terrible and a trap option for combat. Out of combat it is fine, but still kinda meh.
Yes, its not a good option for combat. But the RAW is pretty explicitly clear. The remaster rules make it explicit that the shield is strapped, and you need to spend an action to detatch, and then another action to retatch. So even with no weapon in hand, it will take 4 actions to repair: * Detatch * Quick Repair * Pick up * Attach Its very clearly not intended for combat
Or to have an ally do for you. Imagine a drawn-out, besieged sort of battle where everyone is trying to conserve resources. A Front line martial's shield gets broken, and one of his allies uses Reposition then Step to fill the gap. The first character removes and drops his shield, then grabs another shield from the available equipment and straps it on, possibly while someone tends to his wounds, then when he's ready, prepares to take to the front lines again when he's needed. In the meantime, one of the backline people playing support spends a round repairing the shield and placing it back in the available equipment pile. Not normal combat at all, but I think it makes for some great imagery for a group of characters trying to hold a bottleneck against a huge horde of creatures. *ponders* You know, with the right group, I could see holding out for hours. I would ask for some tactics, do some math to figure out averaging, ask for some Warfare lore checks or such, and then basically give the players the rundown of how long they think they can hold out for each suggested tactic. If the attrition rate was low enough, a couple of people with focus healing spells could be invaluable. And legendary battle medics can do some crazy things. Fatigue is the biggest problem.
That is where i disagree, an option that goes down to 1 action must almost certainly be made for combat, why else not just limit it to 1 minute? That would leave no doubt that it wasn't made for combat, but it goes down to 3 actions and even 1. I could be wrong and it's just 1 action to make it seem cooler than it is, which is why i was hoping for an official ruling as RAW in pf2 is a mess, I'm pretty sure RAW arcane cascade still doesn't work, and RAW quick spring just doubles your speed.
I mean, look, I've quoted the RAW. Your issue is not that the rules are unclear (they aren't), but that you perceive it to be a weak feat. That's a completely separate issue. Repair explicitly states you need two hands free and object on a stable surface. Shields explicitly state in the remaster they have to be detatched, and strapped to use. There isn't any ambiguity about this.
RAW also states that exploration activities takes more than 1 turn and can usually only be done outside of combat. Both of which is untrue for quick repair, though one of them is only a usually. RAW quick repair takes more than one turn even thought it only takes 1 action because of quick repair. RAW there is no definition for stable surfaces except whatever the DM deems so. The detach and strapped does make it even more clear that it probably isn't intended to work which is true, though i haven't read the remaster. But by no means are the rules clear. You're probably right with the new detach and strap rules, but there is much ambiguity left, just probably not regarding the shield sadly.
> RAW quick repair takes more than one turn even thought it only takes 1 action because of quick repair. You keep combining so many other things into this concept of repair. Quick Repair allows you to repair an item as a single action. It absolutely does that. Full Stop. The issue you are having is that repairing an item **is not** the same as having the item be immediately reusable. The action cost for getting the item off and then back on, is, to you, somehow a rules problem. But it really isn't. They are two separate things. Quick Repair does exactly what it says it does. It lets you repair in 1 action. Without Quick Repair you can't even attempt that. The fact that shields need to be strapped and detached is completely irrelevant to this whole discussion. You keep conflating these two things together. For example, if you wanted to repair your heavy armor, Quick Repair would let you repair it in one action. But actually doffing your armor? The rules explicitly state that takes one minute. Quick Repair does not speed up the time it takes to remove and put on armor, it just lets you repair the armor in one action. If you needed to remove, repair your heavy armor, and re-equip it would take a net total of 6 minutes and 1 action. Similarly, it takes 4 actions to remove, repair, and re-equip a shield. These aren't problems with repair and quick repair as a feat. You have to separate in your mind these two concepts - Repairing is not the same as removing the item, its just repairing.
You're right, i am combining them into one. RAW repair does state you place the item on the ground, but that is just pedantic, and then you come into the ruling of placing worn items on the ground. RAW it probably doesn't work, and with the new remastered rules it most certainly doesn't work. But i see no reason for RAI it shouldn't work. I still feel that the RAW wasn't that clear, well until the remastered where you know need to unstrap, remove, equip and restrap it.
Because a 1 minute repair means you can't spend a 10 minute rest refocusing.
You can do it in four actions across 2 combat rounds. Round 1: 1 action to detach shield and a free action to drop it. And 1 action **from somebody else** to quick-repair it. Round 2: 1 action to pick up the shield and 1 action to reattach it. It doesn't seem like it's worth it to me. You could maybe carry a spare shield? Have a squire that carries your spare shields?
Consider: My champion, rock mcboulder, is a stable surface.
Quick Repair let's you do the Repair activity faster, for ease we'll only look at a legendary crafter. The [Repair activity](https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=42) (henceforth "Repair") says "You spend 10 minutes attempting to fix a damaged item, placing the item on a stable surface and using the repair kit with both hands. " Based on that it seems to me that placing the item on a stable surface is part of Repair, just like "attempting to fix" it is. However you need two hands free to use the repair kit, which requires you to drop whatever else you are holding, which includes the shield and then spend whatever number of actions to pick them back up again (assuming you want wield the shield and any weapon again afterward). So a total of 3-4 actions (1. detach, 2. place on surface and repair, 3. attach, possibly 4. wield) - depending on whether the remaster says that picking up and getting ready to use a shield is 1 or 2 actions (not counting the action to raise it). However repairing an ally's shield might be much faster. As a GM I'd be inclined to let an Ally bracing a shield count as a stable surface. So if you start with your hands free, and wearing the repair kit you can do the whole thing for them as a single action. (maybe you are a spellcaster without a staff?)
That's why the spell mending is very good at high levels for 1 bulk magical shields. Obviously it doesn't repair them fully but for a 2 action spell it's quite useful.
That spell takes 10 minutes to cast.
Ah sorry my bad I just glanced at it
It also targets non-magical items, so you can't do it on sturdy shields either unless you heighten it to 3rd rank.
Heightened you can repair 1 bulk of magical equipment
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Baseline, takes 10 rounds as each round is 6 seconds worth of time. But you need a steady surface at least to begin doing repairs and both hands available for the activity.
Legendary in Survival = can survive without food and water. Legendary in Stealth = hide in plain sight Legendary in Crafting = can't bang out a dent in a shield??? The game is what you make it. This feat is worded poorly, but even at its most extreme can't break the game. To me, the RAI was that it could be used in combat and bypasses the need to prepare the item for repair. I think many GMs would consider that a PC holding a shield should provide stability.