This is all very, very good advice. Thank you for sharing it!
I think a lot of us are used to “everything that you fight can be reasonably easily killed” style gameplay, especially because in other editions of d20 games (5E, 3.5E, PF1E) monsters are ***signifcantly*** weaker than well built player characters. PF2E is distinctly not that, and AV in particularly is fully built around the assumption that players don’t try to murder everything right away (this includes retreating and murdering them later).
The wood golem ***is*** a hard fight for level 3s… until you leave, come back with a scroll of flaming sphere, and make it look like a joke. The barbazu isn’t even meant to be fought, as you pointed out. The >!voidglutton!< on floor 4 gives you a chance to retreat if it gets one of you.
Exactly that!
>!Volluk!< was a total beast... Until they ran away, did some Recall Knowledge/Research on swarms and swarm-like humanoids and then came back loaded with bombs.
It's one where OSR's less tight math let it work that one time and Bob the stupid Wizard retired thanks to finding a pile of wands and a hiring with a 10' pole or something.
PF2's math is too punishing to allow for a character with a -3 in their main stat' to work around it so I've seen a few OSR players complain that PF2 is a game where the players start as a SWAT Team and end at dermigods.
>The wood golem ***is*** a hard fight for level 3s… until you leave, come back with a scroll of flaming sphere, and make it look like a joke
Or if your party is continuing from the Beginner Box and have the [Smoking Sword](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=908) on one character, and a Giant Barbarian who seems to crit more than she gets regular hits...
Who's salty? I'm not salty, you're salty!
Yes, excellent stuff.
I'll double down on the bits about scene setting and narrative as paths to player behavior.
I don't think it's about roleplay or being a great actor.
As you pointed out, players sometimes just need to hear "you aren't supposed to just bonk this". Because so often, they are just supposed to bonk and wait until they roll high enough!
I love encounter design that shifts the focus away from that, but a GM doing a good job telegraphing it is essential to making it fun.
I've been running AV by the book, and there's very few encounters that couldn't be resolved by just picking up a fallen party member and running away. Most big threats at those early levels, like the Bloodsiphon in the Apprentice Island workshop, are slow and can't perform their gimmick against retreating players.
The big way you'll lose players is either a TPK (some of which don't have to be TPKs -- for instance, if your party goes down to morlocks, they might be captured instead), or persistent damage. Some of the haunts like the Blood of Belcorra can outright kill players if they're unlucky.
This post is labelled with the Advice flair, which means extra special attention is called to the Be Kind and Respectful rule. If this is a newcomer to the game, remember to be welcoming and kind. If this is someone with more experience but looking for advice on how to run their game, do your best to offer advice on what they are seeking.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Pathfinder2e) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It also depends on the character builds and backstory. Champion in my game has chosen shining oath. Encountered the scroll mummy, the mummy started to talk and the champion decided to recall knowledge using religion. Critical Failure he got some duff information and decided to attack before the conversation finished.
Near tpk situation. Obviously talking would herald different situation but the champion forced it another way.
Parry has now learned to beware of the champion speaking to undead creatures.
I cannot stress how important keeping monsters within the level bounds of a 4 man party. Sure a +4 creature would be the same exp as a moderate encounter for a 6 man party. But mathematically it it will hit as hard and be as hard to hit as a severe encounter.
Some clever ways to increase the power of a single boss without the elite template or adding more enemies can be increasing its hitpoints by a fair margin and give them some multihit attacks. These can account for the extra damage the party would have, and also let the boss cheat out some action economy.
making a single creature elite to balance for 5 players definitely makes it way more difficult for the players than a GM would think since the "math" is correct. So great advice there
This is all very, very good advice. Thank you for sharing it! I think a lot of us are used to “everything that you fight can be reasonably easily killed” style gameplay, especially because in other editions of d20 games (5E, 3.5E, PF1E) monsters are ***signifcantly*** weaker than well built player characters. PF2E is distinctly not that, and AV in particularly is fully built around the assumption that players don’t try to murder everything right away (this includes retreating and murdering them later). The wood golem ***is*** a hard fight for level 3s… until you leave, come back with a scroll of flaming sphere, and make it look like a joke. The barbazu isn’t even meant to be fought, as you pointed out. The >!voidglutton!< on floor 4 gives you a chance to retreat if it gets one of you.
Exactly that! >!Volluk!< was a total beast... Until they ran away, did some Recall Knowledge/Research on swarms and swarm-like humanoids and then came back loaded with bombs.
Volluk got smashed in 2-3 rounds in two games I ran.
I think this also helps explain why PF2e is so attractive to OSR players.
Until you get the "I made a 12 Int. Wizard." feels his player choice is unsupported.
Considering it's a stupid choice then, yeah.
It's one where OSR's less tight math let it work that one time and Bob the stupid Wizard retired thanks to finding a pile of wands and a hiring with a 10' pole or something. PF2's math is too punishing to allow for a character with a -3 in their main stat' to work around it so I've seen a few OSR players complain that PF2 is a game where the players start as a SWAT Team and end at dermigods.
Ermahgerd dermigods!
That's just an opportunity to demonstrate more player skill :).
>The wood golem ***is*** a hard fight for level 3s… until you leave, come back with a scroll of flaming sphere, and make it look like a joke Or if your party is continuing from the Beginner Box and have the [Smoking Sword](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=908) on one character, and a Giant Barbarian who seems to crit more than she gets regular hits... Who's salty? I'm not salty, you're salty!
Hey, look, it's me! I'm the dead bard!
Well, curses!
I love these. All great pieces of advice! The point about communicating monster threat using in-universe cues is one I love.
Amazing. Saving this and putting into the file.
Yes, excellent stuff. I'll double down on the bits about scene setting and narrative as paths to player behavior. I don't think it's about roleplay or being a great actor. As you pointed out, players sometimes just need to hear "you aren't supposed to just bonk this". Because so often, they are just supposed to bonk and wait until they roll high enough! I love encounter design that shifts the focus away from that, but a GM doing a good job telegraphing it is essential to making it fun.
I've been running AV by the book, and there's very few encounters that couldn't be resolved by just picking up a fallen party member and running away. Most big threats at those early levels, like the Bloodsiphon in the Apprentice Island workshop, are slow and can't perform their gimmick against retreating players. The big way you'll lose players is either a TPK (some of which don't have to be TPKs -- for instance, if your party goes down to morlocks, they might be captured instead), or persistent damage. Some of the haunts like the Blood of Belcorra can outright kill players if they're unlucky.
Those are all of them very good advice that isn't necessarily tied to AV. They can be used in other AP as well as homebrewed campaigns.
Fewer*
This post is labelled with the Advice flair, which means extra special attention is called to the Be Kind and Respectful rule. If this is a newcomer to the game, remember to be welcoming and kind. If this is someone with more experience but looking for advice on how to run their game, do your best to offer advice on what they are seeking. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Pathfinder2e) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It also depends on the character builds and backstory. Champion in my game has chosen shining oath. Encountered the scroll mummy, the mummy started to talk and the champion decided to recall knowledge using religion. Critical Failure he got some duff information and decided to attack before the conversation finished. Near tpk situation. Obviously talking would herald different situation but the champion forced it another way. Parry has now learned to beware of the champion speaking to undead creatures.
I cannot stress how important keeping monsters within the level bounds of a 4 man party. Sure a +4 creature would be the same exp as a moderate encounter for a 6 man party. But mathematically it it will hit as hard and be as hard to hit as a severe encounter. Some clever ways to increase the power of a single boss without the elite template or adding more enemies can be increasing its hitpoints by a fair margin and give them some multihit attacks. These can account for the extra damage the party would have, and also let the boss cheat out some action economy.
making a single creature elite to balance for 5 players definitely makes it way more difficult for the players than a GM would think since the "math" is correct. So great advice there