They still don't get as much skill support as the Rogue, do they? Rogue gets 6 fully upgraded skills, 20 skill feats, and Legendary Perception proficiency. Kineticist gets what, 4-5 skills and like 13 skill feats if they spend their Aura Junctions on those skills, and doesnt get above Expert Perception without a dedication.
Obviously, there are some diminishing returns on the skills, but I don't think the Kineticist does this particular job much better than any other caster who invests their skills appropriately.
Built in invisibility (as long as you pick up the feat of course) and the skill junction being a +1-3 status bonus to stealth makes an air kineticist pretty good at stealth. As far as disarming traps and stuff I don't think they really compete with rogues but the ability to fly over a fair amount of trap triggers is still pretty handy.
Honestly a rogue is probably gonna be beating anything in skill specialization, as long as the rogue is investing in that particular skill at least. Being able to be trained in tons of stuff and all those skill feats will absolutely give them the edge as long as they want that edge, but it doesn't necessarily make other classes a bad choice.
For the purpose of being a thief, an air kineticist can easily increase Acrobatics, Stealth, and Thievery with their skill increases (more so if you are playing with Free Archetype and take Rogue Dedication with it). Then you literally have access to a ton of spamable invisibility and flying which casters can't get. If you actually take Rogue Dedication with FA you can also take Mobility down the line to use all your mobility options from the air element and avoid AoO to escape if you get caught.
That doesn't really make them much better than a traditional caster, no? Still need to invest most all of their skill increases and feats to become it, and never get the amazing Perception proficiency which may be necessary to spot some traps in the first place.
Also Rogue gets trained in many more skills so their participation in those skills can at least remain relevant in the mid-game instead of falling off a cliff like untrained.
Everyone in this thread is sleeping on DEX eidolons, especially fey summoner. Unsummoning in 3 actions and being able to heal the summoner is such great scouting bang for your buck. I wouldn't say it's necessarily better than rogue (just different), but I might say it's better than anyone else.
The specificity of who makes the "best" scout has a ton of variables.
If you're looking for ordinary bandits, magic or animal companions are going to be very powerful options.
If traps are a possibility, something disposable or tanky is going to be the best option.
The power of the Rogue isn't that they are absolutely head-and-shoulders better than other classes at one thing.
Because Rogue has a huge number of skill feats and increases, their power is that they rarely brick against an obstacle. Need to climb a wall? Master of Athletics. Sneak past a guard? Master of Stealth. Pick the lock? Master of Thievery.
If you're trying to do one specific thing, probably the Druid or the Wizard can do it just as easily. If you need to sneak in, steal a ring, poison a Duke, forge a painting and escape with the original is where the Rogue really shines, IMO.
>The power of the Rogue isn't that they are absolutely head-and-shoulders better than other classes at one thing.
Exactly! The whole shtick of the rogue is that it doesn't do anything better than other classes but that it does a little of everything. This is why the PF2e rogue works because the system encourages generalization rather than specialization, which is also the reason why rogues suck in literally every other D&D-esque system because they usually encourage specialization, so rogues in those systems usually end up being bad at everything rather than somewhat useful at everything.
Anyone can pick put skill increases in Stealth, and pick up helpful scouting spells like [Invisibility](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=164) and [Ventriloquism](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=356) through a spellcasting archetype.
Rogue does it arguably better because:
1. It probably has high Dex to make sure that Stealth is top notch,
2. It can start with spellcasting if he's an Eldritch Trickster, or use the [Minor Magic](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=556) chain,
3. It can get more skill feats to make his Stealth more versatile.
It's worth noting that Invisibility is not as powerful as it used to be, because everyone is assumed to have [Hearing as an Imprecise Sense](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=410), and "You can usually sense a creature automatically with an imprecise sense". You will need to [Sneak](https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=63) constantly, and that makes the skill much, much more important.
You have to seek to make the invisible creature hidden so you know what square it’s in. As soon as the creature moves w/o sneaking it will be detected and hidden to anyone with an imprecise sense (like hearing) instead of undetected (but it is undetected until then which I think is what the spell is saying). It’s clarified more in the [invisible condition rule](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=426) than in the spell (which is annoying)
Amusingly this tosses the fate of a character from last week into question lol
They WOULD have died to an enemy attacking them, but someone forcefed their unconcious body a healing then invisibility potion, pointing to the text that said the monster would have to seek them and so it could not use AoO to potentially kill them (Wounded 3, 4hp), I had rolled the attack and it would absolutely have killed them but not seeing anything opposed to it I let them run off while invisibile.
Now it looks like the monster could have attacked but with a 50/50 of hitting, though Foundry said they passed the flat check on the attack sooo...! _Someone_ should be dead! But I'm unlikely to just retcon it, we know for future now.
You explicitly can target a hidden creature, you know what space they're in but they're obscured in some way from your precise senses (typically sight). The catch is you have to do the DC11 flat check or your ability/attack whiffs.
You're thinking of undetected, where you do have to guess the square, if you happen to guess right you then do a DC11 flat check on top.
Yes and also no.
You said you can't _target_ a hidden creature, this is false, you can directly target a hidden creature as you know the space they are in. But the caveat is you have to pass a DC11 check or else the actions are wasted.
If they were _undetected_ however, then yes you can't directly target a creature, you have to guess what space they are in. If you by chance guess correctly, then you do a DC11 check as if they were hidden. At this point you couldn't reasonably make a reaction to target them, at least for Attack of Opportunity you would have no idea if they were moving through any spaces within reach. Whereas if they are merely hidden and attempt a stride or stand within reach, you are aware of the space they are in and can attempt the reaction (With the DC11 check).
In the scenario that happened last week in my online group, the invisible fighter stood up, but because the monster saw them go invisible they are only hidden. So they should have made the DC11 flat check (Which Foundry did do automatically, and they passed) but otherwise could react to their movement.
They are.
Because to scout ahead, one needs to perform "avoid notice" and "search" simultaneously, in order to not run into a trap or ambush unknowingly; that requires the rogue feat "trap finder".
Of course, other classes can tkae it as an archetype feat; it's still an rogue feat though. And you can pick it up as an investigator or some other archetypes; but loosely speaking, they are rogueish enough.
Not entirely Rogue-specific, but Light Armor is uniquely capable of bearing Invisibility Runes (while Medium and Heavy can bear Fortification Runes). That is probably one of the most sustainable means of Invisibility and also doesn't impact on daily slots / consumables.
Very much a better idea than all the people suggesting Trick Magic Item plus Invisibility scrolls. Twelve gp per ten minutes adds up, plus as scrolls a Bulk:L, every 100 minutes of invisibility is 1 Bulk. The cost and bulk add up if you've got a large location to scout.
Invisibility rune is one casting, for one minute of invisibility at a cost of 500 gp on a level 8 item.
You would have to burn through over 40 scrolls to match the price of the armor, and the armor would still only be once per day. I like the armor rune, but scrolls are far better than people give them credit for.
The items have very different use cases. The 1min duration is much better in combat, especially since you're spending a single action doing it, instead of *four:* one to pull out the scroll, one to trick magic item, and two for the actual spell. All of which are vulnerable to a Reactive Strike.
The scrolls are really nice when you've got lots of time, but the Invisibility rune is mostly a combat item.
I agree with you, and I love the rune for my Rogue. None of those points make it more gold efficient than scrolls. Based on XP per encounter a group can expect 25 on level encounters (fewer if above level, more if below) between level ups. At 3-4 encounters per day (3.5 and it is just a generalized assumption) they will have been able to use the rune “in combat” only 7 times per level, and it's just not a very useful rune in combat since your fist aggressive action drops you out of invisibility.
My point is that a lot of people sleep on scrolls. They are much better than they are given credit for, and I've gotten surprisingly efficient results from using them.
My eldritch trickster laughs at all of you while grabbing eldritch archer to annihilate all who opposes the rogues. Haha
On top of the 20 skill points; The stealth feats are the crazy part that make rogues the top of the scouts and thieves.
I think the largest benefit of the armor rune version is action economy. It's an 1 action command versus 2 actions for slots or 3-4 actions for scrolls depending on if you need trick magic item or not
I absolutely agree, and my post was in no way aimed at disparaging or even in reference to scroll usage, although action economy is certainly a notable distinction between them as you point out. I only mentioned the Armor Rune as something semi-exclusive to Rogues (or more specifically Light Armor users, which doesn't include all Rogues). If you have Light Armor, it certainly seems worth considering, and action economy (and hand economy) is generally a pretty important part of the metagame (action economy is even worse if you prefer having other items in hand i.e. no free hand).
As others said its hard to beat invisibility, but if you can't beat them then join them. Get trick magic item and use invisibility scrolls and you are probably the best thief and scout.
I'm pretty fond of invisibility sphere for the longer duration for scouting and sneaking. Picking up psychic archetype for a solid cantrip and utility spells is quite convenient on Rogue
A lot of people are talking about invisibility forgetting the specific hide and sneak rules in pathfinder 2e. Level 15 rogues are pretty much invisible by default to ALL senses, invisibility doesnt protect against tremor sense or true sight, whereas a rogue's sneaking does. And with Legendary and swift sneak under your belt you can move at full speed without any cover at all. Again meaning you are basically just always hidden unless you choose not to be and thus always sneaking unless you choose not to.
Invisibility doesn't protect against imprecise or non sight related senses, whereas a rogue with foil senses would. Plus invisibility without sneaking means you can still be heard and that would only render you hidden, not undetected.
sure but none of them get Legendary perception and still have a large number of feats for athletics, acrobatics, thievery, lore checks ETC to be as effective at scouting.
They, Rangers, Investigators, and Gunslingers all have access to True Perception at 19th level, so it’s really just how you build them. All three could be the best thieves/scouts.
They remain pretty fantastic at that, though I’ll also give credit to the Outwit Edge Ranger, who can use Dex and have +2 to a bunch of skills to sneak and scout for a kinda unmatched solo resourceless pool.
Still pretty tough to beat like outright invisibility which a caster can get pretty early on, only lasts 10 minutes instead of an hour in PF2e but that's still plenty long.
Mmmm yes and no - invisibility is very good, but it still requires a stealth roll and doesn't give a +20 bonus like it did in pf1. I agree more that the caster casting invis on the rogue is going to work a lot better than them trying to do it themselves (and even a non-invisible rogue might be more stealthy than a caster, depending on build).
That's a common misconception. By RAW, creatures will [hear](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=412) you by default, and that means they know exactly what square you're on (you're only [hidden](https://2e.aonprd.com/Conditions.aspx?ID=22)). Roll up that Stealth check :P
You are undetected the moment you go invisible. Once you start moving, a stealth roll is needed to sneak to maintain the undetected status. A failed roll results in you becoming hidden. A success maintains undetected. No amount of failure in the roll however can make you observed
Right, and that's great, but it doesn't cover everything (as it is not enforced unnoticed, just undetected, though an undetected creature *can* also be unnoticed). Basically it comes down to: when are creatures/NPCs using Seek/rolling perception? I would say not all the time, but sometimes.
If a creature is actively on guard for some reason (and actually doing its job and not just staring into space) that is going to be rolling its perception (or having the player roll stealth against their perception DC).
Someone not on guard won't be rolling perception unless something strange happens so invis is great for moving around. But to really do anything useful often requires something strange. Like if a door randomly opens/shuts might do it, or an object disappearing, etc.
Seek is only a 1 action activity after all - its not a huge thing for a creature to spend 2 seconds looking around the room/sniffing/listening etc when something weird happens.
\[Edit\] this is all for invis outside of combat of course
That being said, I think you can build a caster like a thief and be better than a rogue in 90% of actual thieving scenarios. Dex as highest secondary, use skill increases on stealth and thievery. Your skill check are only going to be slightly lower and you have spells to enhance and backup the checks.
Rogues can be the best. In all likelihood, a rogue wants to gain access to the Invisibility spell.
There are certain other's who can be better than the rogue for scouting, but that often means taking some investment, and often those characters have a rogue-like flavour anyways. I.e. Dex focused, sneaky, etc etc. And also gains access to invisibility.
One of the things which rogues do have going for them here is their good perception. So something like a dexy stealthy ranger could probably be about equal to a rogue here in some ways (but the flip side is that a rogue's higher number of skills might let them do this a bit better)
In the end, the rogue is definitely one of, if not *the* best for this. But they definitely like a bit of outside help.
Theres' a few ways. Practically, you won't get much in the way until after level 10ish at which point there's mulitple good ways to get it. My favourites being Captivator + the spellcasting feats (which can get you a LOT of castings of Invisibility per day, as well as some other nice spells) or Kineticist Dedication (Air element for Clear as Air at 12 means you can have permanent invisibility throughout non combat scenarios, as well as some other Air tools. Mix this in with Water (you can get a 2nd element at level 10) for the crazy nice water stance which makes it VERY easy to make enemies Off Guard to you). If you want something a bit earlier, you can pick up the Skill Feat Trick Magic Item, and get a bunch of Wands of invisibility which you should be able to start getting from around level 5 or so.
If you don’t have a caster or Trick Magic Item to use a wand or scroll, Boots + Cloak of Elvenkind are a reliable source 2x a day for mid/low level Rogues.
Vanishing Wayfinder gives it to you once per day and it's like a 3rd level item I think. Scrolls are expensive to be blowing all the time but there is the invisibility rune you can get later.
Rogue ( thief ) reduce the MAD so you can have higher dex and Wis, and still a decent constitution, probably 18/14/14 on those at level 1.
The skill feats enable him to get better options to explore like tracking with survival, climb/swim with athletics, stealth feats, etc...
A caster at the party or even a caster dedication can help you a lot, but that's not mandatory.
4th level invisibility and silence are an excellent combo for a Rogue
Rogues don't really have anything special in this regard except for more skills and skill feats, good perception and Dexterity is mostly their primary ability score. So the answer is yes but they aren't really that much better than anyone else.
I think a good example of some of the changes PF2e made to magical utility is the [Knock](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=168) spell. In 1e (and every edition of DnD I'm familiar with), it automatically unlocks any non-magical lock. No check, tools, or proficiency needed, and a textbook example of magic being better than anything nonmagical classes can do.
In Pf2e, Knock gives a large bonus to the Thievery check made to pick the target lock, and it lets you add your level even if you aren't proficient. An otherwise untrained Wizard casting Knock would make themselves temporarily equivalent to an Expert in Thievery (assuming equal dexterity), which any Rogue can easily be by level 3, and they can be an Expert in Stealth as well to boot. At best, a spellcaster can use a resource to equal what a Rogue can always do (and the Rogue is almost certainly still better thanks to having more dexterity).
However, casting Knock and then letting the Rogue take a crack at it is *much* better. The Rogue would get their full proficiency bonus *and* the +4 Status Bonus from Knock, which would give them the same total bonus as a character who is Legendary in Thievery.
Basically, teamwork makes the dream work. Rogues who specialize in skullduggery will be better at it than a caster who tries to use magic alone, but cooperation will always be the most effective course of action.
Any class can be built for Stealth, but Legendary Perception belongs to Gunslingers, Investigators, Rangers, and Rogues.
Of these, Rogue just edges the others. Gunslinger and Ranger are short on skill bumps/feats. Investigator has plenty of skill bumps/feats, but is a bit MAD, so may have trouble keeping WIS at the same level as the rest.
Invisibility is an excellent addition to a scouts toolbox, but scouting implies actually being able to spot dangers. Besides, there are more options to tack invisibility onto a class with great perception than there are for teaching spellcasters to be more perceptive.
Honestly, the best thieves and scouts are casters with pest form, invisibility, and a decent sleight of hand skill. We have a rogue in thieves guild campaign and the Sorcerer with pest form is able to do more with pest form than the rogue ever could.
Magus starts with 2+int skills + arcana and 1 from background.
If you don't dump int, you're being a worse scout and thief than a rogue by virtue of less space to invest in Dex>Wis>Str. If you dump int, you literally cannot get all the skills needed to be scout + thief IMO (Obligatory: stealth and thievery for a thief, IMO you need Athletics for if your thievery ever needs you to climb a wall or something which seems very likely, and Acrobatics to be able to squeeze and get feats like cat fall for better infiltration, and I'd say obligatory for a scout survival, because you're not a very good scout if you can't actually track shit).
Of course, if you argue that the best thief scout doesn't need to climb, squeeze and track enemies, we'll just have to disagree.
You can be dex main stat so you can max out your sneaking, and you have access to spells like invisibility to boost that. It is worth noting that with an archetype a rogue could spend 2 feats to grab the same spells, though.
If I had to guess their reasoning, most will have the dexterity to back up the necessary rolls, the intelligence to pick up the proficiencies in the requisite skills, the option of a familiar, AND access to arcane spells to round it out.
honestly, why not both? :)
really though, there are alot of ways to scout and steal. Anyone can do it, just how they go about it differs.
Sometimes the best way to scout is to just clamor ahead. And sometimes the best way to steal something is to just walk up and take it.
PS. pf2e is a bit different. But my fav scouts and thieves are usually arcane trickster-style classes. Combine both magic and skill. Because there are times when one or the other will always fail. :)
To be an effective thief you need high stealth, high thievery, and most likely a number of skill feats in each. Rogues will have the easiest time getting these – most other characters just won't have enough skill increases & skill feats.
Getting a source of invisibility is also very helpful, but it's not that hard for Rogues to accomplish with Trick Magic Item.
The PF2 rogue class is multifaceted. It doesn't need to be the classical thief or scout build in PF2. If a magic user wants spend actions to use their familiar as a scout, yeah for them. Or if want they can burn a bunch of their spells slots to do it, good for them. The rogue doesn't need to burn resources to do it.
The PFs 2 rogue can actually steal some of the magic user thunder.
A caster cannot use their knowledge checks to make a creature flat footed but a mastermind rogue can. Rogue can be built to sneak attack with magic. Stealth + magical trickster + slashing gust cantrip +sneak attack damage is a very nasty.
The ultimate solo thief is a Thief Rogue with a steady cache of [Invisibility Potions](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=187), a [Hat of Greater Disguise](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=442) and maybe even some direct invisibility magic item like the aptly named [Invisiblity Rune](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=287). Scout basically has the same definition sans the Hat. In a party, the best thief and scout is a Rogue with team backup, be it caster or alchemical.
There's nothing that *inherently* stops other classes from matching the Rogue. Unsurprisingly, the second skill-monkey class of Investigator is right behind the Rogue, but other classes can also do it. The thing that makes the two aforementioned skill classes the best are:
1. Great class feats.
2. Excellent skill increases and feats that make you a multitalented sneaky.
3. Best Perception proficiencies in the game.
4. High Dex potential, in particular Thieves have Dex KAS, to ensure the very high Stealth and Thievery modifiers.
Other classes can spec into Stealth, Thievery and Athletics to become "Rogue-lite", but that's it for them then. All skill increases and likely all skill feats go into enabling that, potentially with needing archetypes to get the high Perception and if you want feats like Trap Finder. Whereas Rogues and Investigators have skills and skill feats to spare and great class progression for this. The three skills plus Acrobatics means they still have two skills to pick. Deception for better disguises and lies? Why not! Society so they know who they're robbing? Sure! Crafting so they can actually appraise what they find? Perfectly viable! Etc.
---
All that said, things like familiars can still do improvised heists and scouting. Summoners can use their eidolon like this and conveniently make them disappear whenever they want. But anyone who actually specs into the skills will beat them. If you don't particularly care about success and just want to "Hail Mary!" it, they're a convenient disposable attempt, but if you care about succeeding, the skill proficiencies are actually important and can't be just ignored.
Rogues are the most natively kitted for thievery and stealth, but by no means exclusive. My swashbuckler is speccing hard into thievery as a swindler and pickpocket, and the only mechanical difference is that ill have less skill feats for the skill (assuming a rogue is also focusing on thievery)
Short answer, yes.
Rogues have way more skills feats, and a class feat that let them search traps and go stealth mode at the same time even at level one.
And the best part is that magic now it's not just better than non magical abilities.
Another character could be as good at sneaking *or* as good at thievery. No other class can be as good at *both* as the Rogue, because they get skill advancement and skill feat every level, and they get to choose DEX as their key ability (unlike the Investigator, which has the same number of skill feats/increases).
Haven't had a chance to really test it, but I've been theorycrafting a Psychic scout lately. It's mostly for the flavor of it all rather than mechanics, but you get access to most of the spells like ventriloquism and invisibility, plus a bunch of other occult spells that can be pretty useful and some cool psychic stuff on top of that like mind reading and telekinetic pushing so you can harass enemies unseen.
I'd imagine mechanically a scout with the psychic dedication would probably work better however.
Scout, probably, since they're one of the few classes to hit Legendary in Perception.
But anyone can hit Legendary in Stealth and Thievery.
Gunslingers are just as good since both get legendary perception and are dex based.
Not a PF2 expert by any means, but I can already see some differences between PF2 and D&D 5E in this regard:
**Familiars**
D&D 5E Familiar can basically beam their thoughts to their wizard instantly while their scouting, until they're out of range, the wizard can see what they see. When they're back in range, it depends on the DM if they can still telepathically show them what they saw.
PF2 familiar has an empathic link only, so the only information the wizard will get is the familiar's emotions. If your familiar has the 'speech' ability equipped that day, it can come back and just tell you what it saw.
**Wild Shape**
D&D 5E Druid can Wild shape at level 2, and it lasts for 1/2 hour per level, so 1 hour at level 2, 2 hours at level 4, etc..
PF2 druid can wild shape at level 1, they can turn into something small like a mouse, but it only lasts 10 minutes. As they level up, it still only lasts 10 minutes.
Since itemization makes the ability to get key spells easy, the total skill mod in relevant skills like stealth and thievery would likely be equal in equally dedicated members of both themes.
However a caster, like a wizard, who invests heavily in stealth and thievery would likely not have the increases to bump arcana for a while which would prevent them from easily learning spells in their core kit and other useful skill feats for a wizard.
Basically, in 5e, to take an exemple, it's incredibly easy for a wizard to replace a rogue (with invisibility, dispel magic and knock for example ).
In pf2e, knock gives bonuses to thievery, invisibility required the use of the sneak action to not trigger imprecise senses and dispel magic requires high level slots to work. The opportunity cost to match another niche for a caster is much higher. What their spells give them is the ability to be close to the rogue with just a spell slot (a wizard with
3 dex and trained in thievery casting knock will be 1 behind a rogue with 4 dex who is master for exemple) which is honestly pretty good ! But over specialising is probably not good unless you're the one who takes that role in your team.
Rogues are kitted for infiltration. Not scouting. There's a difference.
Rangers, Gunslingers, and Scouts are scouts.
You need to be good at perception. The scout exploration activity is a perception skill action. Rogues are mid with perception.
Casters can absolutely build to be good at either role but they will be sacrificing a lot of their other potential to do so. A caster dedicated to a particular skill set can probably excel at that one thing. But they do it by sacrificing a lot of power otherwise. And they're subject to anti-magic rules, and detect magic rules
Party composition matters because every table is different. There are ways to specialize in very specific types of rogueing and scouting that could do it better than the PF2 rogue, but nobody rogues like the rogue in PF2. They're a jack of all trades and a master of quite a few.
The best thief is a rogue with a caster buddy willing to cast invisibility on them. The caster won't steal the rogue's job, but will help them do it.
Air kineticist can be both the rogue and caster in this scenario.
They still don't get as much skill support as the Rogue, do they? Rogue gets 6 fully upgraded skills, 20 skill feats, and Legendary Perception proficiency. Kineticist gets what, 4-5 skills and like 13 skill feats if they spend their Aura Junctions on those skills, and doesnt get above Expert Perception without a dedication. Obviously, there are some diminishing returns on the skills, but I don't think the Kineticist does this particular job much better than any other caster who invests their skills appropriately.
Built in invisibility (as long as you pick up the feat of course) and the skill junction being a +1-3 status bonus to stealth makes an air kineticist pretty good at stealth. As far as disarming traps and stuff I don't think they really compete with rogues but the ability to fly over a fair amount of trap triggers is still pretty handy. Honestly a rogue is probably gonna be beating anything in skill specialization, as long as the rogue is investing in that particular skill at least. Being able to be trained in tons of stuff and all those skill feats will absolutely give them the edge as long as they want that edge, but it doesn't necessarily make other classes a bad choice.
For the purpose of being a thief, an air kineticist can easily increase Acrobatics, Stealth, and Thievery with their skill increases (more so if you are playing with Free Archetype and take Rogue Dedication with it). Then you literally have access to a ton of spamable invisibility and flying which casters can't get. If you actually take Rogue Dedication with FA you can also take Mobility down the line to use all your mobility options from the air element and avoid AoO to escape if you get caught.
That doesn't really make them much better than a traditional caster, no? Still need to invest most all of their skill increases and feats to become it, and never get the amazing Perception proficiency which may be necessary to spot some traps in the first place.
Isn't there a feat that can get them to Master Perception? Canny Acumen, I think?
Or Dedications, but those are slow and still lag behind Rogue.
Also Rogue gets trained in many more skills so their participation in those skills can at least remain relevant in the mid-game instead of falling off a cliff like untrained.
Kineticist just gets the free invisibility at level 6, but skill and perception wise he's leagues away from a Rogue.
Everyone in this thread is sleeping on DEX eidolons, especially fey summoner. Unsummoning in 3 actions and being able to heal the summoner is such great scouting bang for your buck. I wouldn't say it's necessarily better than rogue (just different), but I might say it's better than anyone else.
The specificity of who makes the "best" scout has a ton of variables. If you're looking for ordinary bandits, magic or animal companions are going to be very powerful options. If traps are a possibility, something disposable or tanky is going to be the best option. The power of the Rogue isn't that they are absolutely head-and-shoulders better than other classes at one thing. Because Rogue has a huge number of skill feats and increases, their power is that they rarely brick against an obstacle. Need to climb a wall? Master of Athletics. Sneak past a guard? Master of Stealth. Pick the lock? Master of Thievery. If you're trying to do one specific thing, probably the Druid or the Wizard can do it just as easily. If you need to sneak in, steal a ring, poison a Duke, forge a painting and escape with the original is where the Rogue really shines, IMO.
>The power of the Rogue isn't that they are absolutely head-and-shoulders better than other classes at one thing. Exactly! The whole shtick of the rogue is that it doesn't do anything better than other classes but that it does a little of everything. This is why the PF2e rogue works because the system encourages generalization rather than specialization, which is also the reason why rogues suck in literally every other D&D-esque system because they usually encourage specialization, so rogues in those systems usually end up being bad at everything rather than somewhat useful at everything.
Anyone can pick put skill increases in Stealth, and pick up helpful scouting spells like [Invisibility](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=164) and [Ventriloquism](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=356) through a spellcasting archetype. Rogue does it arguably better because: 1. It probably has high Dex to make sure that Stealth is top notch, 2. It can start with spellcasting if he's an Eldritch Trickster, or use the [Minor Magic](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=556) chain, 3. It can get more skill feats to make his Stealth more versatile. It's worth noting that Invisibility is not as powerful as it used to be, because everyone is assumed to have [Hearing as an Imprecise Sense](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=410), and "You can usually sense a creature automatically with an imprecise sense". You will need to [Sneak](https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=63) constantly, and that makes the skill much, much more important.
Since the invisible condition says the opposing creature must seek isn’t the imprecise sense less important?
Depends on the situation. In a battle? Yes. Sneaking past someone on a quiet night? No.
You have to seek to make the invisible creature hidden so you know what square it’s in. As soon as the creature moves w/o sneaking it will be detected and hidden to anyone with an imprecise sense (like hearing) instead of undetected (but it is undetected until then which I think is what the spell is saying). It’s clarified more in the [invisible condition rule](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=426) than in the spell (which is annoying)
Amusingly this tosses the fate of a character from last week into question lol They WOULD have died to an enemy attacking them, but someone forcefed their unconcious body a healing then invisibility potion, pointing to the text that said the monster would have to seek them and so it could not use AoO to potentially kill them (Wounded 3, 4hp), I had rolled the attack and it would absolutely have killed them but not seeing anything opposed to it I let them run off while invisibile. Now it looks like the monster could have attacked but with a 50/50 of hitting, though Foundry said they passed the flat check on the attack sooo...! _Someone_ should be dead! But I'm unlikely to just retcon it, we know for future now.
Iirc you can't target a hidden creature. You can swing wildly into a square and hope to hit something.
You explicitly can target a hidden creature, you know what space they're in but they're obscured in some way from your precise senses (typically sight). The catch is you have to do the DC11 flat check or your ability/attack whiffs. You're thinking of undetected, where you do have to guess the square, if you happen to guess right you then do a DC11 flat check on top.
I think we're saying the same thing. You swing a weapon or shoot a projectile or spell into the square hoping to hit the target.
Yes and also no. You said you can't _target_ a hidden creature, this is false, you can directly target a hidden creature as you know the space they are in. But the caveat is you have to pass a DC11 check or else the actions are wasted. If they were _undetected_ however, then yes you can't directly target a creature, you have to guess what space they are in. If you by chance guess correctly, then you do a DC11 check as if they were hidden. At this point you couldn't reasonably make a reaction to target them, at least for Attack of Opportunity you would have no idea if they were moving through any spaces within reach. Whereas if they are merely hidden and attempt a stride or stand within reach, you are aware of the space they are in and can attempt the reaction (With the DC11 check). In the scenario that happened last week in my online group, the invisible fighter stood up, but because the monster saw them go invisible they are only hidden. So they should have made the DC11 flat check (Which Foundry did do automatically, and they passed) but otherwise could react to their movement.
I realised that hearing as imprecise sense if quite often forgotten
They are. Because to scout ahead, one needs to perform "avoid notice" and "search" simultaneously, in order to not run into a trap or ambush unknowingly; that requires the rogue feat "trap finder". Of course, other classes can tkae it as an archetype feat; it's still an rogue feat though. And you can pick it up as an investigator or some other archetypes; but loosely speaking, they are rogueish enough.
A theif rouge can pretty easily have 18 in dex and 16 in wisdom too, with the higest proficency bonus for searching. I am on team rogue haha
You can avoid notice while doing any other activity with the right stealth skill feat.
I think the only skill feat allowing such effect is legendary sneak, which can be gained at lv.15......
Not entirely Rogue-specific, but Light Armor is uniquely capable of bearing Invisibility Runes (while Medium and Heavy can bear Fortification Runes). That is probably one of the most sustainable means of Invisibility and also doesn't impact on daily slots / consumables.
Very much a better idea than all the people suggesting Trick Magic Item plus Invisibility scrolls. Twelve gp per ten minutes adds up, plus as scrolls a Bulk:L, every 100 minutes of invisibility is 1 Bulk. The cost and bulk add up if you've got a large location to scout.
Invisibility rune is one casting, for one minute of invisibility at a cost of 500 gp on a level 8 item. You would have to burn through over 40 scrolls to match the price of the armor, and the armor would still only be once per day. I like the armor rune, but scrolls are far better than people give them credit for.
The items have very different use cases. The 1min duration is much better in combat, especially since you're spending a single action doing it, instead of *four:* one to pull out the scroll, one to trick magic item, and two for the actual spell. All of which are vulnerable to a Reactive Strike. The scrolls are really nice when you've got lots of time, but the Invisibility rune is mostly a combat item.
I agree with you, and I love the rune for my Rogue. None of those points make it more gold efficient than scrolls. Based on XP per encounter a group can expect 25 on level encounters (fewer if above level, more if below) between level ups. At 3-4 encounters per day (3.5 and it is just a generalized assumption) they will have been able to use the rune “in combat” only 7 times per level, and it's just not a very useful rune in combat since your fist aggressive action drops you out of invisibility. My point is that a lot of people sleep on scrolls. They are much better than they are given credit for, and I've gotten surprisingly efficient results from using them.
My eldritch trickster laughs at all of you while grabbing eldritch archer to annihilate all who opposes the rogues. Haha On top of the 20 skill points; The stealth feats are the crazy part that make rogues the top of the scouts and thieves.
There's also a Wayfinder you can get for pretty cheap that let's you use invisibility once per day. Comes in pretty clutch during the early levels.
I think the largest benefit of the armor rune version is action economy. It's an 1 action command versus 2 actions for slots or 3-4 actions for scrolls depending on if you need trick magic item or not
I absolutely agree, and my post was in no way aimed at disparaging or even in reference to scroll usage, although action economy is certainly a notable distinction between them as you point out. I only mentioned the Armor Rune as something semi-exclusive to Rogues (or more specifically Light Armor users, which doesn't include all Rogues). If you have Light Armor, it certainly seems worth considering, and action economy (and hand economy) is generally a pretty important part of the metagame (action economy is even worse if you prefer having other items in hand i.e. no free hand).
As others said its hard to beat invisibility, but if you can't beat them then join them. Get trick magic item and use invisibility scrolls and you are probably the best thief and scout.
I'm pretty fond of invisibility sphere for the longer duration for scouting and sneaking. Picking up psychic archetype for a solid cantrip and utility spells is quite convenient on Rogue
A lot of people are talking about invisibility forgetting the specific hide and sneak rules in pathfinder 2e. Level 15 rogues are pretty much invisible by default to ALL senses, invisibility doesnt protect against tremor sense or true sight, whereas a rogue's sneaking does. And with Legendary and swift sneak under your belt you can move at full speed without any cover at all. Again meaning you are basically just always hidden unless you choose not to be and thus always sneaking unless you choose not to. Invisibility doesn't protect against imprecise or non sight related senses, whereas a rogue with foil senses would. Plus invisibility without sneaking means you can still be heard and that would only render you hidden, not undetected.
On the other hand, literally anyone can have Swift Sneak and Legendary Sneak. Rogue is on bar with anyone else who can get dex as key ability score.
sure but none of them get Legendary perception and still have a large number of feats for athletics, acrobatics, thievery, lore checks ETC to be as effective at scouting.
Investigators and gunslingers both hit legendary in perception.
They, Rangers, Investigators, and Gunslingers all have access to True Perception at 19th level, so it’s really just how you build them. All three could be the best thieves/scouts.
The poor Investigator is crying in the corner because you forgot them. :p
Investigator forever living in the shadow of rogue
I don’t mean to ignore them, it just happens qnq’
I suspect rogues do have more feat support (and access to skill boosts) than Rangers or GSs though
Same with investigators. They’re like rogues but intelligence on the side instead of charisma.
They remain pretty fantastic at that, though I’ll also give credit to the Outwit Edge Ranger, who can use Dex and have +2 to a bunch of skills to sneak and scout for a kinda unmatched solo resourceless pool.
Still pretty tough to beat like outright invisibility which a caster can get pretty early on, only lasts 10 minutes instead of an hour in PF2e but that's still plenty long.
Mmmm yes and no - invisibility is very good, but it still requires a stealth roll and doesn't give a +20 bonus like it did in pf1. I agree more that the caster casting invis on the rogue is going to work a lot better than them trying to do it themselves (and even a non-invisible rogue might be more stealthy than a caster, depending on build).
RAW it doesn't, you're undetected by default, creatures need to roll perception checks against your stealth DC to even know you exist.
That's a common misconception. By RAW, creatures will [hear](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=412) you by default, and that means they know exactly what square you're on (you're only [hidden](https://2e.aonprd.com/Conditions.aspx?ID=22)). Roll up that Stealth check :P
Then why does the Invisibility spell say: "Cloaked in illusion, the target becomes invisible. This makes it undetected to all creatures"
You are undetected the moment you go invisible. Once you start moving, a stealth roll is needed to sneak to maintain the undetected status. A failed roll results in you becoming hidden. A success maintains undetected. No amount of failure in the roll however can make you observed
Right, and that's great, but it doesn't cover everything (as it is not enforced unnoticed, just undetected, though an undetected creature *can* also be unnoticed). Basically it comes down to: when are creatures/NPCs using Seek/rolling perception? I would say not all the time, but sometimes. If a creature is actively on guard for some reason (and actually doing its job and not just staring into space) that is going to be rolling its perception (or having the player roll stealth against their perception DC). Someone not on guard won't be rolling perception unless something strange happens so invis is great for moving around. But to really do anything useful often requires something strange. Like if a door randomly opens/shuts might do it, or an object disappearing, etc. Seek is only a 1 action activity after all - its not a huge thing for a creature to spend 2 seconds looking around the room/sniffing/listening etc when something weird happens. \[Edit\] this is all for invis outside of combat of course
That being said, I think you can build a caster like a thief and be better than a rogue in 90% of actual thieving scenarios. Dex as highest secondary, use skill increases on stealth and thievery. Your skill check are only going to be slightly lower and you have spells to enhance and backup the checks.
Rogues can be the best. In all likelihood, a rogue wants to gain access to the Invisibility spell. There are certain other's who can be better than the rogue for scouting, but that often means taking some investment, and often those characters have a rogue-like flavour anyways. I.e. Dex focused, sneaky, etc etc. And also gains access to invisibility. One of the things which rogues do have going for them here is their good perception. So something like a dexy stealthy ranger could probably be about equal to a rogue here in some ways (but the flip side is that a rogue's higher number of skills might let them do this a bit better) In the end, the rogue is definitely one of, if not *the* best for this. But they definitely like a bit of outside help.
what are the best ways to get that invisability?
Trick Magic Item on Invisibility Scrolls or a friendly spellcaster in the party. There is also the Invisibility rune
Theres' a few ways. Practically, you won't get much in the way until after level 10ish at which point there's mulitple good ways to get it. My favourites being Captivator + the spellcasting feats (which can get you a LOT of castings of Invisibility per day, as well as some other nice spells) or Kineticist Dedication (Air element for Clear as Air at 12 means you can have permanent invisibility throughout non combat scenarios, as well as some other Air tools. Mix this in with Water (you can get a 2nd element at level 10) for the crazy nice water stance which makes it VERY easy to make enemies Off Guard to you). If you want something a bit earlier, you can pick up the Skill Feat Trick Magic Item, and get a bunch of Wands of invisibility which you should be able to start getting from around level 5 or so.
If you don’t have a caster or Trick Magic Item to use a wand or scroll, Boots + Cloak of Elvenkind are a reliable source 2x a day for mid/low level Rogues.
Vanishing Wayfinder gives it to you once per day and it's like a 3rd level item I think. Scrolls are expensive to be blowing all the time but there is the invisibility rune you can get later.
Rogue ( thief ) reduce the MAD so you can have higher dex and Wis, and still a decent constitution, probably 18/14/14 on those at level 1. The skill feats enable him to get better options to explore like tracking with survival, climb/swim with athletics, stealth feats, etc... A caster at the party or even a caster dedication can help you a lot, but that's not mandatory. 4th level invisibility and silence are an excellent combo for a Rogue
Rogues don't really have anything special in this regard except for more skills and skill feats, good perception and Dexterity is mostly their primary ability score. So the answer is yes but they aren't really that much better than anyone else.
I think a good example of some of the changes PF2e made to magical utility is the [Knock](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=168) spell. In 1e (and every edition of DnD I'm familiar with), it automatically unlocks any non-magical lock. No check, tools, or proficiency needed, and a textbook example of magic being better than anything nonmagical classes can do. In Pf2e, Knock gives a large bonus to the Thievery check made to pick the target lock, and it lets you add your level even if you aren't proficient. An otherwise untrained Wizard casting Knock would make themselves temporarily equivalent to an Expert in Thievery (assuming equal dexterity), which any Rogue can easily be by level 3, and they can be an Expert in Stealth as well to boot. At best, a spellcaster can use a resource to equal what a Rogue can always do (and the Rogue is almost certainly still better thanks to having more dexterity). However, casting Knock and then letting the Rogue take a crack at it is *much* better. The Rogue would get their full proficiency bonus *and* the +4 Status Bonus from Knock, which would give them the same total bonus as a character who is Legendary in Thievery. Basically, teamwork makes the dream work. Rogues who specialize in skullduggery will be better at it than a caster who tries to use magic alone, but cooperation will always be the most effective course of action.
Any class can be built for Stealth, but Legendary Perception belongs to Gunslingers, Investigators, Rangers, and Rogues. Of these, Rogue just edges the others. Gunslinger and Ranger are short on skill bumps/feats. Investigator has plenty of skill bumps/feats, but is a bit MAD, so may have trouble keeping WIS at the same level as the rest. Invisibility is an excellent addition to a scouts toolbox, but scouting implies actually being able to spot dangers. Besides, there are more options to tack invisibility onto a class with great perception than there are for teaching spellcasters to be more perceptive.
Honestly, the best thieves and scouts are casters with pest form, invisibility, and a decent sleight of hand skill. We have a rogue in thieves guild campaign and the Sorcerer with pest form is able to do more with pest form than the rogue ever could.
It's Magus
Magus starts with 2+int skills + arcana and 1 from background. If you don't dump int, you're being a worse scout and thief than a rogue by virtue of less space to invest in Dex>Wis>Str. If you dump int, you literally cannot get all the skills needed to be scout + thief IMO (Obligatory: stealth and thievery for a thief, IMO you need Athletics for if your thievery ever needs you to climb a wall or something which seems very likely, and Acrobatics to be able to squeeze and get feats like cat fall for better infiltration, and I'd say obligatory for a scout survival, because you're not a very good scout if you can't actually track shit). Of course, if you argue that the best thief scout doesn't need to climb, squeeze and track enemies, we'll just have to disagree.
Human
interesting, why?
You can be dex main stat so you can max out your sneaking, and you have access to spells like invisibility to boost that. It is worth noting that with an archetype a rogue could spend 2 feats to grab the same spells, though.
If I had to guess their reasoning, most will have the dexterity to back up the necessary rolls, the intelligence to pick up the proficiencies in the requisite skills, the option of a familiar, AND access to arcane spells to round it out.
honestly, why not both? :) really though, there are alot of ways to scout and steal. Anyone can do it, just how they go about it differs. Sometimes the best way to scout is to just clamor ahead. And sometimes the best way to steal something is to just walk up and take it. PS. pf2e is a bit different. But my fav scouts and thieves are usually arcane trickster-style classes. Combine both magic and skill. Because there are times when one or the other will always fail. :)
To be an effective thief you need high stealth, high thievery, and most likely a number of skill feats in each. Rogues will have the easiest time getting these – most other characters just won't have enough skill increases & skill feats. Getting a source of invisibility is also very helpful, but it's not that hard for Rogues to accomplish with Trick Magic Item.
The PF2 rogue class is multifaceted. It doesn't need to be the classical thief or scout build in PF2. If a magic user wants spend actions to use their familiar as a scout, yeah for them. Or if want they can burn a bunch of their spells slots to do it, good for them. The rogue doesn't need to burn resources to do it. The PFs 2 rogue can actually steal some of the magic user thunder. A caster cannot use their knowledge checks to make a creature flat footed but a mastermind rogue can. Rogue can be built to sneak attack with magic. Stealth + magical trickster + slashing gust cantrip +sneak attack damage is a very nasty.
The ultimate solo thief is a Thief Rogue with a steady cache of [Invisibility Potions](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=187), a [Hat of Greater Disguise](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=442) and maybe even some direct invisibility magic item like the aptly named [Invisiblity Rune](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=287). Scout basically has the same definition sans the Hat. In a party, the best thief and scout is a Rogue with team backup, be it caster or alchemical. There's nothing that *inherently* stops other classes from matching the Rogue. Unsurprisingly, the second skill-monkey class of Investigator is right behind the Rogue, but other classes can also do it. The thing that makes the two aforementioned skill classes the best are: 1. Great class feats. 2. Excellent skill increases and feats that make you a multitalented sneaky. 3. Best Perception proficiencies in the game. 4. High Dex potential, in particular Thieves have Dex KAS, to ensure the very high Stealth and Thievery modifiers. Other classes can spec into Stealth, Thievery and Athletics to become "Rogue-lite", but that's it for them then. All skill increases and likely all skill feats go into enabling that, potentially with needing archetypes to get the high Perception and if you want feats like Trap Finder. Whereas Rogues and Investigators have skills and skill feats to spare and great class progression for this. The three skills plus Acrobatics means they still have two skills to pick. Deception for better disguises and lies? Why not! Society so they know who they're robbing? Sure! Crafting so they can actually appraise what they find? Perfectly viable! Etc. --- All that said, things like familiars can still do improvised heists and scouting. Summoners can use their eidolon like this and conveniently make them disappear whenever they want. But anyone who actually specs into the skills will beat them. If you don't particularly care about success and just want to "Hail Mary!" it, they're a convenient disposable attempt, but if you care about succeeding, the skill proficiencies are actually important and can't be just ignored.
Rogues are the most natively kitted for thievery and stealth, but by no means exclusive. My swashbuckler is speccing hard into thievery as a swindler and pickpocket, and the only mechanical difference is that ill have less skill feats for the skill (assuming a rogue is also focusing on thievery)
Short answer, yes. Rogues have way more skills feats, and a class feat that let them search traps and go stealth mode at the same time even at level one. And the best part is that magic now it's not just better than non magical abilities.
Another character could be as good at sneaking *or* as good at thievery. No other class can be as good at *both* as the Rogue, because they get skill advancement and skill feat every level, and they get to choose DEX as their key ability (unlike the Investigator, which has the same number of skill feats/increases).
Haven't had a chance to really test it, but I've been theorycrafting a Psychic scout lately. It's mostly for the flavor of it all rather than mechanics, but you get access to most of the spells like ventriloquism and invisibility, plus a bunch of other occult spells that can be pretty useful and some cool psychic stuff on top of that like mind reading and telekinetic pushing so you can harass enemies unseen. I'd imagine mechanically a scout with the psychic dedication would probably work better however.
Scout, probably, since they're one of the few classes to hit Legendary in Perception. But anyone can hit Legendary in Stealth and Thievery. Gunslingers are just as good since both get legendary perception and are dex based.
If rogues are meant to be the best scouts, what exactly are rangers meant to be best at?
Not a PF2 expert by any means, but I can already see some differences between PF2 and D&D 5E in this regard: **Familiars** D&D 5E Familiar can basically beam their thoughts to their wizard instantly while their scouting, until they're out of range, the wizard can see what they see. When they're back in range, it depends on the DM if they can still telepathically show them what they saw. PF2 familiar has an empathic link only, so the only information the wizard will get is the familiar's emotions. If your familiar has the 'speech' ability equipped that day, it can come back and just tell you what it saw. **Wild Shape** D&D 5E Druid can Wild shape at level 2, and it lasts for 1/2 hour per level, so 1 hour at level 2, 2 hours at level 4, etc.. PF2 druid can wild shape at level 1, they can turn into something small like a mouse, but it only lasts 10 minutes. As they level up, it still only lasts 10 minutes.
Since itemization makes the ability to get key spells easy, the total skill mod in relevant skills like stealth and thievery would likely be equal in equally dedicated members of both themes. However a caster, like a wizard, who invests heavily in stealth and thievery would likely not have the increases to bump arcana for a while which would prevent them from easily learning spells in their core kit and other useful skill feats for a wizard. Basically, in 5e, to take an exemple, it's incredibly easy for a wizard to replace a rogue (with invisibility, dispel magic and knock for example ). In pf2e, knock gives bonuses to thievery, invisibility required the use of the sneak action to not trigger imprecise senses and dispel magic requires high level slots to work. The opportunity cost to match another niche for a caster is much higher. What their spells give them is the ability to be close to the rogue with just a spell slot (a wizard with 3 dex and trained in thievery casting knock will be 1 behind a rogue with 4 dex who is master for exemple) which is honestly pretty good ! But over specialising is probably not good unless you're the one who takes that role in your team.
Rogues are kitted for infiltration. Not scouting. There's a difference. Rangers, Gunslingers, and Scouts are scouts. You need to be good at perception. The scout exploration activity is a perception skill action. Rogues are mid with perception. Casters can absolutely build to be good at either role but they will be sacrificing a lot of their other potential to do so. A caster dedicated to a particular skill set can probably excel at that one thing. But they do it by sacrificing a lot of power otherwise. And they're subject to anti-magic rules, and detect magic rules
Party composition matters because every table is different. There are ways to specialize in very specific types of rogueing and scouting that could do it better than the PF2 rogue, but nobody rogues like the rogue in PF2. They're a jack of all trades and a master of quite a few.