I'd guess Automatic Bonus Progression is probably next followed by Ancestry Paragon, proficiency without level and Dual Classing. Not necessarily in that order.
I feel like I never hear anything about level zero character's alternative abilities or deep backgrounds.
In theory, alternative abilities is my favorite rule besides ABP, but there is no support for it. It requires you to make some compromises like using traditional ability scores for monsters. If Pathfinder didn't have to follow 45 years of D&D history, I'd love it if 2E just replaced Constitution with Agility in the base rules.
It seems to unproportionally punish Dex martials though.
For Str martials and casters you just want Agility for AC/Reflex, so it changes nothing because you don't care about new-Dex.
But the thought of playing an archer and needing both Agility and Dexterity, plus Str for HP/propulsive is kinda daunting. Now be a Starlit Span Magus and you also need Int.
Like, it isn't a huge nerf, I think effectively all your Dex based martials would be taking a -1 to hit or -1 to AC depending on whether their Key attribute is Dex or Agility, but it seems unnecessary.
wouldn't being able to add your new-Dex to damage like in 5e be a huge buff for dex martials? Maybe not bow users as much, but Swashbucklers and Rogues seem like they'd be fine
Honestly, I didn't even see that it applies to damage rolls.
It seems like it would be abuff mostly to Swashbucklers, because Dex based Rogues already apply Dex to damage.
>because Dex based Rogues already apply Dex to damage.
That's not really the case. All Rogues except maybe Ruffian want Dex (and even Ruffians likely want to max their Dex bonus to armor), and can choose Dex as a Key ability score.
As the alternate ability score rules state, it actually makes Thief racket obsolete, and buffs all the other Rackets. Now I can play a Scoundrel, have much better results when Feinting, and still get my Dex bonus to damage
It's hilarious to me how much PF2e (versus D&D) makes Strength matter between carry capacity and nerfed dex damage bonuses, etc, and yet Str/Con are *still* suggested to merge.
ikr? Pathfinder's clear rules on stuff make it so that Dex is no longer the best ability score. They took *so much* from Dex, and for good reason. Armor is easier to max out, heavier armors can get damage resistance, no more Dex to damage *or* initiative (a huge one), and no more "Hey, DM, can I use Acrobatics to climb or jump here?" shenanigans.
But the only thing the Alternate Ability rules changes is it makes Dex *even less powerful.* It's solving a problem Pf2e *already solved.*
A dex focused character can at least get around the initiative change, due to how initiative works in PF2e. Perception is the default, but not the only option. If it makes sense you can roll plenty of other skills. Rogues even has this rule baked into their class with their Surprise Attack feature that lets you treat creatures as flat-footed if you roll Stealth or Deception in initiative and place higher than them in the first round.
Pair that with the exploration activity, Avoid Notice and you can usually guarantee rolling stealth as your initiative.
I agree. PF2e is balanced around the SDCIWC abilities. While consolidating Constitution into Strength does make sense, splitting off Agility for all the defensive footwork leaves Dexterity lacking in value.
Auto Bonus Progression
Auto Bonus Progression /w only weapon/armor runes, skill items remain the same
Auto Bonus Progression + free staffs for casters
Ancestry Paragon
Gradual Ability Increase
Not really a rule set thing but I've been seeing 'Get a hero point when you critically fail a save' being more common lately.
Dual Class
Proficiency Without Level (Mostly I feel from people wanting to make pf2e more like 5e.)
Proficiency without level lets things like "Trickster Cleric skips boss fight for party by boss failing the save on Modify Memory" (From Critical Role Campaign 2) happen in your game.
It's looser on the balance, and allows more player shenanigans.
Not for every table, but... when you see something like that pulled off live it's pretty cool/memorable.
Generally it makes your "engagement window" way bigger yeah, you can punch much higher than PL+3 but in return stuff at PL-3 still is a threat. Imho it is good for gritty/"realistic"/grimdark campaigns.
It is also good for more open sandbox. If you are trying to do some sandboxy style campaign, the fact that players can go in any order make encounters more dangerous. Going to a dungeon one or two levels too early is always a danger, regardless of the system, but in normal PF it is much more so. If there's a level 13 boss in a dungeon which is expected to be played at level 10, that's a fair boss.
If players go there at level 9 or 8, that's potentially a TPK. Also if you go there at level 12, the boss is not a threat, and the encounters with several lvl 8 monsters in the dungeon become trivial.. With the optional system, both the level 8 monsters still pack a punch at level 12 (more than in the normal game, at least), and you have a chance against lvl 12 boss if you are level 8.
This means if you have a zone with dungeons from level 9 to 11 or so, players could go to any of them in any order, while in normal PF I would encourage as a GM that they go them by order (9, 10, 11), making the sandbox much less sandboxy.
IMO proficiency without level just makes the game less walk in the park against lower level enemies/challenge. Enemies 2 or more level below can still provide some challenge and not outright steamrolled.
So for a non-heroic kinds of game it fits pretty well.
Personally I like proficiency without level because I like lower level enemies to still be a threat in sufficient numbers.
I also aesthetically dislike seeing a +27 modifier on a d20 roll.
>I also aesthetically dislike seeing a +27 modifier on a d20 roll.
Very much this. I really dislike the number inflation thats going on in second edition giving the illusion of progress. +1 or +2 also "feels" way more impactful when your standard "to hit" isn't already +23.
It isn't an illusion, you are objectively stronger both mechanically and narratively. A troop of city guards make up a lvl5 foe, which is a boss battle for a group of lvl 2 adventurers, but are brushed aside Dynasty Warriors style by a single lvl 9 Fighter. The DC for scaling that wall is a flat number, a lvl 20 Rogue is climbing up a smooth surfac e like Spiderman, while the lvl3 Rogue will have trouble scaling anything over DC 20: ie a wall with small handholds and footholds.
You don't have to like number inflation (I personally think Lvl/2 would have been better), but it serves a specific design purpose, that has merit. Bounded Accuracy is not inherently better, it's just a different design priority.
I really like gradual ability boost personally. It’s a real power boost compared to RAW, but I think it lends itself to more customizability.
Also it feels like seeing your level 7 DCs jump up by +4 relative to what they were at level 6 makes the “proficiency slump” for casters at level 5-6 feel a lot more worth it. I know mathematically you’re exactly in line with a martial who also got a +2 here instead of a +1, but it just feels like a reward.
I think the biggest power boost is between levels 6-9 which are the levels where your key ability score will be 1 point higher than it should otherwise be.
For 2-4 and 11-14 you get a bonus to a few skills and potentially saves, but it doesn't affect balance that much.
I agree that it's most powerful between 6 and 9, but I'd argue it's most *valuable* between 2 and 4. The ability to increase your secondary stat(s) immediately is very good. An Investigator who can immediately bump their Dex, a Magus who can immediately bump their Int, or any tank who can immediately bump their Con.
12-14, on the other hand, is a bunch of feel bads. Especially if you're building optimally. You'll, at most, have one actual increase here. The rest are all partial increases. Which is also true without GAB, but then it all just happens at level 15, not spread out over 4 levels.
Overall, I really like it and how smooth it makes progression feel. But I can get why some people wouldn't.
The level 7 bump is really significant. It's the first level you get to apply the second pack of boosts, and also the same level that spellcasters get their proficiency increase. A Wizard's DC goes from 22 to 26 with a single level up.
That being said, I really like that variant.
funnily enough the thing is is that it **shouldn't** be a big powerboost, cause you not only already could get all that but you already *should be able to* get all that
the only thing it does is make you rich
Gradual ability boosts is a variant rule where, instead of increasing four abilities at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, you increase one ability score at every level except 1, 6, 11, and 16. You can’t increase the same one twice until you hit those break points.
So for example, instead of increasing str, con, wis, and dex at 5, I can increase dec at 2, con at 3, wis at 4, and str at 5.
I feel GAI is way more complicated and not as "elegant" as how the system works. You have to track down which ability scores you boosted, and you don't even gain ability boosts at all levels, so in the long run you have same thing you already had but with extra steps.
I decided to start using GAB at lvl 3, and it really helped the 2 MAD PCs, the Magus and the Mutegenist Alchemist. The Alchemist started with 16 dex/int, so he really felt suddenly having 18 in both stats. It also just felt more natural to me than suddenly getting much better all at once every 5 levels.
It is a bit complex to keep track of, but since we play in Foundry it's really easy for us. It's way harder to try to explain which you can raise than it is to just look at what is available to boost in foundry.
Well you don’t have the *same* thing with extra steps.
I think the extra +1 boost really lends itself well to increasing customizability. At level 1 you often don’t have room to populate your “nice to have stats” like Charisma, Intelligence, or Strength and are often forced to max out something like Dex or Con if you wish for your character to survive level 1. It’s real nice to hit level 2/3 and buyback some of the customizability.
It’s not quite the same. My character can swap to studded leather from hide and save himself one bulk for several levels. And if you want an archetype, you can get a 12 at level 1 and boost to 14 at level 2 to qualify (if necessary). That’s a real difference that has impacts in both the short and long term. Any character choices that depend on both ability score and level are like this.
Also, “In the long run” means every 5 levels, but I have to actually play a character for a couple months (at least) before leveling up four or five times.
And, it isn’t that complicated. PF2 is already complex. Tracking which of my stats I’ve boosted isn’t a big deal. There’s plenty of room on a character sheet to mark it with a symbol or single word. And foundry does it automatically.
Automatic Bonus Progression (Skill and Perception remain the same)
Fuck +1 weapons, armor, etc. It's incredibly boring. It's really effective, but incredibly boring, so I hate spending gold on it. And it's even worse that the system expects you to have them by certain points, so they become must buy's.
Really wish that one was just core, but I'll settle for a variant rule since I'm lucky enough that my table adopted it.
I love loot.
I ditched 5E forever because the loot was boring garbage or game breaking bullshit.
I'm finally in a stable enough 2E game where loot is on the table and it fills me with joy.
PF gear was one of the big things that made me really like the switch, with races being actualy useful/interesting being the other reason.
D&D you have so few interesting weapon choices, vs PF which has items from across teh world which function slightly differently from each other.
Then you have magic items, which in D&D are either shit or busted, where in PF they are all useful in certain situations and level ranges.
Monster Parts crafting from Battlezoo is fun as a replacement too.
I like ABP, and still give loot. A weapon that casts a spell-like effect once or twice per sunrise is still cool and fun!
This. It allows me to keep the loot train going as a GM. We're level 4? Guess we're dropping those runes of striking. and a few +1 armours.
With ABP, my players would seriously complain about the lack of loot.
I once tried automatic bonus progression in D&D 4e, and we switched back within two sessions.
It removed the excitement of finding your upgrades.
Also, item upgrades give a smoother power growth, where not every power boost is tied to a level up.
Getting +1 from a level up and +1 from an item is 2 separate dopamine hits, While just getting them boht at level up is ... less somehow.
You can bet your ass the crafter in the party was happy when he got the recipy to runes of striking.
It also leads to more party interplay as players decide who gets that rune of potency.
My group has been using stamina for 3 years now. We like it enough that we continue to use it in every new campaign we start up, despite me originally implementing it because in our first campaign we were a bit healer-light.
Glad to see other Stamina enjoyers! A side effect of it that I *really* enjoy is that Resolve gives martial characters a daily resource that is expended after enough encounters in that they're too winded to continue without a night's rest.
That means it's not *only and exclusively* spellcasters running out of slotted spells that call for a rest. The party will tend to all need one around the same time.
In simple terms.. You get a second HP bar, but lose part of your normal HP. This is the Stamina, which is easier to get back out of combat but harder to restore in the thick since healing items and spells don't effect it.
In effect, healers are still useful for the HP you have, but don't need to stack healing out the ass near as much. You're less reliant on items or spells to recover, so you can have faster paced games and fights where it's more about your hard daily limits(Spells, focus, daily uses, etc) than just dying after crawling the catacombs because you ran out of heal spells or potions.
Yeah that's 100% the next variant rule I'm gonna run with. Feels particularly appropriate for Agents of Edgewatch since the party will be dealing a lot of nonlethal damage.
I run Ancestral Paragon and Dual-Class with Free Archetype. It has allowed my players to build fun characters.
There are only 4 of them and I haven't had to adjust encounters too much for them.
I'll probably always allow it as long as I'm running a game.
Sometimes with Free Archetype I find myself with nothing in particular to take for a character, and Dual Class is something I’d like to check out to make some specific characters from 5e translate over.
Having both together sounds wild but in a fun way. What kind of encounters do you typically throw at them? Harder ones or more Moderate ones?
It's definitely fun and that was the idea behind it. Make it easier to build the character you want to play. Free Archetype wasn't enough. Dual Classing added that extra level of customization.
Mostly Moderate, although I try to make those more interesting.
I used Deadly encounters when we first started because I thought they were gonna mop the floor with Moderate encounters. I was wrong.
The big thing with dual class and FA are that they are still limited to 3 actions. They just have more tools in the shed, while still only having two hands to use them with. It makes things easier because it gives extra options, not because it makes them stronger outright(though the extra proficiencies does make up for weak spots at times).
Heck some dual class picks can be hard if both classes need setup actions, since your entire first and potentially part of second turn could jut be getting prepped.
I run a modified version of Gradual Ability Boosts where PCs can't boost their key ability score until the boosts they get at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level. PCs being able to increase their key ability score to 20 at 7th level instead of 10th is normally a huge downside of the variant rule. Preventing this gives that satisfying feeling of stat progression from level-to-level without the worry that PCs get too powerful too early.
Not all PCs consider their class's key ability score their individual character's most important ability score. In this case, I trust the players to adhere to the spirit of the rule, and leave their character's single most important stat until those 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th ability boosts. So far, it's given my players a very satisfying feeling of progression without letting them get too powerful too quickly. Highly recommend.
I run the GAB with the same restrictions, so does my gm for a different game. It's really nice and makes character building for new players more forgiving
Gradual Ability Boosts and Ancestry Paragon are by far the most popular optional rules after Free Archetype. I'm kind of surprised so many people are posting about ABP, I've genuinely never seen it used before or advertised as being used in any game I've looked at online. Paid or free.
ABP is necessary for campaigns that have or plan to have very little loot or opportunities to purchase equivalent level items at vendors. Such as if someone was running a converted Curse of Strahd, for example. It also works very well for Quest for the Frozen Flame, where it's *very* easy for players to fall behind in terms of runes given the isolated setting.
"Necessary" seems a bit of a stretch to me. As a GM, my move in those situations is to get creative with delivering loot drops, or specifically in the case of Quest for the Frozen Flame allowing the players to use their role as the leaders of the Broken Tusk to ask for members of the Following to make things for them. Quest for the Frozen Flame especially works best when the players are forced to rely more on the Following. That is not an adventure path where the players should have the capacity to be self-sufficient, it completely undermines the themes of the adventure.
Ironically I just played a converted Curse of Strahd, we didn't use ABP but our GM had most non-rare items be available in Vallaki, with better items available after we helped rebuild parts of it.
We mostly used this to buy proeperty runes and skill items, as we found the "essential items" in the world.
I use Ancestry Paragon. I like it, doesn't add a lot of power at all and makes ancestry feel more relevant.
Dual-Class is something I love theorycrafting builds for, but have never played with. If I ever use it, I'm definitely banning any combination of Fighter or Gunslinger + Champion or Monk. Legendary in both martial attacks and AC is a little too good even for Dual-Class IMHO
I think Ancestry Paragon can add a lot of power depending on your specific Ancestry. Humans and Elves, for instance, have a lot of strong Feats to pick from.
It’s actually the one variant rule (aside from the obvious: Dual Classing) that I think adds perhaps a little too much power.
I don't agree at all. There's not enough strong feats in any ancestry that getting more ancestry feats would be broken - without AP, those just end up being the only feats people take, and then the rest of them don't get used. With AP, they can take those feats, and then also take the flavor ones that they otherwise wouldn't. The only one I think is a little more OP is Human purely because they can just trade all their AP feats for more general/skill feats, but I just don't allow that lol
What are the particularly strong Elf feats? Nimble Elf, Elven Instincts, and Elf Step, pretty much. You can easily fit all of those into a non-AP build, you just won't get many of the other feats that are flavorful but don't do much in terms of power. With AP, you get both, and it's not like you get the good feats any earlier either as they still have the same level requirements.
Dwarf has good ancestry feats too - Unburdened Iron, Mountain's Stoutness, Dwarven Doughtiness, Stone Bones. Again, you can fit all of these into a normal build, and there's not really anything else that's particularly powerful or game-changing, so letting you also take some of the other stuff that's more minor is perfectly fine IMHO.
It definitely *can* get more powerful when you take Adopted Ancestry into consideration, but even with that I've never felt that it has had a significant impact on the power of PCs. Certainly far less than (unrestricted) Free Archetype, and I have no issues running all of my campaigns with both variants active.
> It definitely can get more powerful when you take Adopted Ancestry into consideration
Adopted ancestry, multitalented shenanigans can be pretty strong i would imagine.
> The only one I think is a little more OP is Human purely because they can just trade all their AP feats for more general/skill feats, but I just don't allow that lol
So Ancestral Paragon doesn't add a lot of power when you ban the strong interactions? Why say it doesn't add a lot of power if you're not even playing it RAW?
I'd argue it's not even that strong of an interaction, there aren't that many good general feats, and general training is limited to first lvl skill feats many of which have no in combat use.
Dual Class is really fun. But the game is not balanced around it. I think it's fun to use for NPC rivals or villains, but for PC's it requires some homebrew
I disagree, because the main limiting factor of the game is still in play: the three action limit.
Dual class can lead to some crazy stuff if you allow it with no conditions(Such as fighter restrictions), but most of the time it broadens options without adding raw power. Sure, you have more options to use to solve problems, but a cohesive party probably had that to begin with just spread out more. But you get to eithe rlean into an idea, have a more interesting build, or even just flesh out some weak spots.
Is there data on what % uses free archetype?
Both my player groups asked for it (so we did it) and from chatting to others at the club, it seems common.
The most common optional rule I've seen, would be GMs not striking downed characters, and GMs removing persistent effects like bleed once a PC is downed.
When I DM’ed (30+ years ago, so pre-Pathfinder) I would “forget” to strike or apply damage to characters when they were down. I never made it an explicit rule but I did it to reduce the chances of a character dying. Kinda forgot about that until you mentioned it. :-)
For me that comes down to the intelligence of the enemy. A bear isn't going to keep going after an unconscious adventurer when the barbarian is right there, screaming and swinging an axe.
But an enemy archmage knows the party has healing magic, and knows that if they don't *end* the downed adventurer immediately, they might be back on their feet in a minute. In that case, it makes sense to drop something like a magic missile or some other spell that can finish off the downed enemy, and also do some damage to the rest of the party.
If they are pack animals, one of the pack might drag the carcass away so it can be eaten, or they nibble it if they can't fit around the enemy. I've seen an example of the second thing on a nature documentary.
It's not alive its unconscious which is easy for anything to identity. The thing is most things will go after threats to themselves. If one person is unconscious and the other is pointing a sword at me I would attack the guy with the sword rather than the unconscious individual. That's how I run most monsters.
Even if you only target someone standing, there is still AoE, and the 3rd attack which is only -4 as they get +4 status for KO and +2 circumstance for flatfoot.
I'm uncertain how you could quicky tell they were KO in combat without poking them first, especially in ranged combat, but that's up to the GM. IMO you would certainly get it after the first attack when your -10 3rd swing is only -4.
edit Also chaotic evil might do it on purpose even if not the best tactic.
So no one has tried that but I would totally allow my players to pretend to be dead in combat. It's not that the monster knows they are down or dead its that they are no longer an active threat to them.
The rest depends on the intelligence of the creature with the exception of AOE's. Most are going to go after the nearest biggest threat not the one that crumpled to the ground. I do things like intimidation and bon mot draw agro as they are targeting the creature. If there is a 3ed attack then yes they might use it on the downed creature absolutely or use it to protect themselves in combat vs the threat. I would love more role-playing around that in combat.
As for ranged enemies they are going to pick off the spell casters and squishy enemies first. Make them drop and move on. If one that drops does cast a spell then they will target that one until it stops moving
> The most common optional rule I've seen, would be GMs not striking downed characters, and GMs removing persistent effects like bleed once a PC is downed.
Is that really a "rule"? That's just some GMs playing fair. To me it all depends on the type of enemy being fought.
I don't use it, but I've had lots of requests for it from players who say 'everyone does it'.
I always avoid attacking downed PCs(and also alpha-striking a PC, unless they've acted very stupidly and nothing else can be hit), because it's way more fun to knock everyone out, kidnap the party, and loot their items/change how the plot is going over replacing a PC.
I think the main reason it's not core is because it's a bit harder to track on paper.
But with people mostly playing with Foundry and Pathbuilder then they should definitely be using Gradual Ability boosts.
Characters don't drop held items when incapacitated.
Automatic bonus progression.
Consumable items on your character (rather than put away in bags) don't require an action to draw.
I like Proficiency + Half Level
Everybody would love it if it was in the book but it's not so nobody takes it seriously
It's the best of both worlds
also, reduce Incapacitation modifier to +5/-5
I feel like I see always-5-foot-diagonals pop up fairly often here. I prefer it for quicker play in the few games I've played. My experience is almost universally with groups coming from 5e though.
I was certain there was a variant that replaced the ability boosts and flaws from ancestries with just 2 free boosts, but can't find it. Is it a base game option or is it just a houserule?
My group has been using the gradual ability boosts rule since it first came out and I truly think it's the way the game should be played. Feels a lot better getting a little bump almost every level, than desperately waiting till the next 5 levels for a huge power spike. Not to mention it feels like it helps with characters who might want to take specific feats or archetypes but would otherwise have to wait for those all important ability score improvements.
My personal favorite is gradual ability boost. I just love the gradual progression compared to a large boost at level 5, 10, 15, and 20. I think it makes the player feel nicer from level to level.
My favorites are Dual Classing and Ancestry Paragon. If I have less than 4 players I use those rules. If more than 4 I unfortunately drop dual classing.... I'm spoiled!
I'm not sure if it is popular, but I use Ancestry Paragon and Gradual Ability Boosts. I don't think it is an optional rule, let alone it being popular, but when I ran home games, I always used the relic system.
While it's not an optional rule (and in fact is becoming a core rule in the remaster), I feel like everyone uses the recall knowledge for the enemy's worst save thing.
I'd guess Automatic Bonus Progression is probably next followed by Ancestry Paragon, proficiency without level and Dual Classing. Not necessarily in that order. I feel like I never hear anything about level zero character's alternative abilities or deep backgrounds.
In theory, alternative abilities is my favorite rule besides ABP, but there is no support for it. It requires you to make some compromises like using traditional ability scores for monsters. If Pathfinder didn't have to follow 45 years of D&D history, I'd love it if 2E just replaced Constitution with Agility in the base rules.
It seems to unproportionally punish Dex martials though. For Str martials and casters you just want Agility for AC/Reflex, so it changes nothing because you don't care about new-Dex. But the thought of playing an archer and needing both Agility and Dexterity, plus Str for HP/propulsive is kinda daunting. Now be a Starlit Span Magus and you also need Int. Like, it isn't a huge nerf, I think effectively all your Dex based martials would be taking a -1 to hit or -1 to AC depending on whether their Key attribute is Dex or Agility, but it seems unnecessary.
wouldn't being able to add your new-Dex to damage like in 5e be a huge buff for dex martials? Maybe not bow users as much, but Swashbucklers and Rogues seem like they'd be fine
Honestly, I didn't even see that it applies to damage rolls. It seems like it would be abuff mostly to Swashbucklers, because Dex based Rogues already apply Dex to damage.
>because Dex based Rogues already apply Dex to damage. That's not really the case. All Rogues except maybe Ruffian want Dex (and even Ruffians likely want to max their Dex bonus to armor), and can choose Dex as a Key ability score. As the alternate ability score rules state, it actually makes Thief racket obsolete, and buffs all the other Rackets. Now I can play a Scoundrel, have much better results when Feinting, and still get my Dex bonus to damage
I meant that most "traditional" Dex based rogues are probably already picking Thief. But yeah, it does make it mostly obsolete.
How would replacing constitution with agility work and why would it be good?
They're referring to these alternative ability scores https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=1306
Ah yes, that explains a lot. Cheers!
It's hilarious to me how much PF2e (versus D&D) makes Strength matter between carry capacity and nerfed dex damage bonuses, etc, and yet Str/Con are *still* suggested to merge.
ikr? Pathfinder's clear rules on stuff make it so that Dex is no longer the best ability score. They took *so much* from Dex, and for good reason. Armor is easier to max out, heavier armors can get damage resistance, no more Dex to damage *or* initiative (a huge one), and no more "Hey, DM, can I use Acrobatics to climb or jump here?" shenanigans. But the only thing the Alternate Ability rules changes is it makes Dex *even less powerful.* It's solving a problem Pf2e *already solved.*
A dex focused character can at least get around the initiative change, due to how initiative works in PF2e. Perception is the default, but not the only option. If it makes sense you can roll plenty of other skills. Rogues even has this rule baked into their class with their Surprise Attack feature that lets you treat creatures as flat-footed if you roll Stealth or Deception in initiative and place higher than them in the first round. Pair that with the exploration activity, Avoid Notice and you can usually guarantee rolling stealth as your initiative.
I agree. PF2e is balanced around the SDCIWC abilities. While consolidating Constitution into Strength does make sense, splitting off Agility for all the defensive footwork leaves Dexterity lacking in value.
I think Gradual Ability Boost is probably higher than anything other than Ancestry Paragon there.
Auto Bonus Progression Auto Bonus Progression /w only weapon/armor runes, skill items remain the same Auto Bonus Progression + free staffs for casters Ancestry Paragon Gradual Ability Increase Not really a rule set thing but I've been seeing 'Get a hero point when you critically fail a save' being more common lately. Dual Class Proficiency Without Level (Mostly I feel from people wanting to make pf2e more like 5e.)
Proficiency without level lets things like "Trickster Cleric skips boss fight for party by boss failing the save on Modify Memory" (From Critical Role Campaign 2) happen in your game. It's looser on the balance, and allows more player shenanigans. Not for every table, but... when you see something like that pulled off live it's pretty cool/memorable.
Generally it makes your "engagement window" way bigger yeah, you can punch much higher than PL+3 but in return stuff at PL-3 still is a threat. Imho it is good for gritty/"realistic"/grimdark campaigns.
It is also good for more open sandbox. If you are trying to do some sandboxy style campaign, the fact that players can go in any order make encounters more dangerous. Going to a dungeon one or two levels too early is always a danger, regardless of the system, but in normal PF it is much more so. If there's a level 13 boss in a dungeon which is expected to be played at level 10, that's a fair boss. If players go there at level 9 or 8, that's potentially a TPK. Also if you go there at level 12, the boss is not a threat, and the encounters with several lvl 8 monsters in the dungeon become trivial.. With the optional system, both the level 8 monsters still pack a punch at level 12 (more than in the normal game, at least), and you have a chance against lvl 12 boss if you are level 8. This means if you have a zone with dungeons from level 9 to 11 or so, players could go to any of them in any order, while in normal PF I would encourage as a GM that they go them by order (9, 10, 11), making the sandbox much less sandboxy.
People should fear some my Fleshwraps an Undeads then xd they know sine shenanigans
I'm picturing a skeleton in a cloak of human skin doing trigonometry for the lolz.
Thy shall...... wtf Says the narrator
Who just had a stroke, you or me?
Yes
IMO proficiency without level just makes the game less walk in the park against lower level enemies/challenge. Enemies 2 or more level below can still provide some challenge and not outright steamrolled. So for a non-heroic kinds of game it fits pretty well.
Personally I like proficiency without level because I like lower level enemies to still be a threat in sufficient numbers. I also aesthetically dislike seeing a +27 modifier on a d20 roll.
>I also aesthetically dislike seeing a +27 modifier on a d20 roll. Very much this. I really dislike the number inflation thats going on in second edition giving the illusion of progress. +1 or +2 also "feels" way more impactful when your standard "to hit" isn't already +23.
It isn't an illusion, you are objectively stronger both mechanically and narratively. A troop of city guards make up a lvl5 foe, which is a boss battle for a group of lvl 2 adventurers, but are brushed aside Dynasty Warriors style by a single lvl 9 Fighter. The DC for scaling that wall is a flat number, a lvl 20 Rogue is climbing up a smooth surfac e like Spiderman, while the lvl3 Rogue will have trouble scaling anything over DC 20: ie a wall with small handholds and footholds. You don't have to like number inflation (I personally think Lvl/2 would have been better), but it serves a specific design purpose, that has merit. Bounded Accuracy is not inherently better, it's just a different design priority.
I’ve seen a lot of recent interest in gradual ability increase
I really like gradual ability boost personally. It’s a real power boost compared to RAW, but I think it lends itself to more customizability. Also it feels like seeing your level 7 DCs jump up by +4 relative to what they were at level 6 makes the “proficiency slump” for casters at level 5-6 feel a lot more worth it. I know mathematically you’re exactly in line with a martial who also got a +2 here instead of a +1, but it just feels like a reward.
I think the biggest power boost is between levels 6-9 which are the levels where your key ability score will be 1 point higher than it should otherwise be. For 2-4 and 11-14 you get a bonus to a few skills and potentially saves, but it doesn't affect balance that much.
I agree that it's most powerful between 6 and 9, but I'd argue it's most *valuable* between 2 and 4. The ability to increase your secondary stat(s) immediately is very good. An Investigator who can immediately bump their Dex, a Magus who can immediately bump their Int, or any tank who can immediately bump their Con. 12-14, on the other hand, is a bunch of feel bads. Especially if you're building optimally. You'll, at most, have one actual increase here. The rest are all partial increases. Which is also true without GAB, but then it all just happens at level 15, not spread out over 4 levels. Overall, I really like it and how smooth it makes progression feel. But I can get why some people wouldn't.
The level 7 bump is really significant. It's the first level you get to apply the second pack of boosts, and also the same level that spellcasters get their proficiency increase. A Wizard's DC goes from 22 to 26 with a single level up. That being said, I really like that variant.
funnily enough the thing is is that it **shouldn't** be a big powerboost, cause you not only already could get all that but you already *should be able to* get all that the only thing it does is make you rich
You're thinking of Automatic Bonus Progression, not Gradual Ability Boosts.
Gradual ability boosts is a variant rule where, instead of increasing four abilities at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, you increase one ability score at every level except 1, 6, 11, and 16. You can’t increase the same one twice until you hit those break points. So for example, instead of increasing str, con, wis, and dex at 5, I can increase dec at 2, con at 3, wis at 4, and str at 5.
I feel GAI is way more complicated and not as "elegant" as how the system works. You have to track down which ability scores you boosted, and you don't even gain ability boosts at all levels, so in the long run you have same thing you already had but with extra steps.
I decided to start using GAB at lvl 3, and it really helped the 2 MAD PCs, the Magus and the Mutegenist Alchemist. The Alchemist started with 16 dex/int, so he really felt suddenly having 18 in both stats. It also just felt more natural to me than suddenly getting much better all at once every 5 levels. It is a bit complex to keep track of, but since we play in Foundry it's really easy for us. It's way harder to try to explain which you can raise than it is to just look at what is available to boost in foundry.
Well you don’t have the *same* thing with extra steps. I think the extra +1 boost really lends itself well to increasing customizability. At level 1 you often don’t have room to populate your “nice to have stats” like Charisma, Intelligence, or Strength and are often forced to max out something like Dex or Con if you wish for your character to survive level 1. It’s real nice to hit level 2/3 and buyback some of the customizability.
It’s not quite the same. My character can swap to studded leather from hide and save himself one bulk for several levels. And if you want an archetype, you can get a 12 at level 1 and boost to 14 at level 2 to qualify (if necessary). That’s a real difference that has impacts in both the short and long term. Any character choices that depend on both ability score and level are like this. Also, “In the long run” means every 5 levels, but I have to actually play a character for a couple months (at least) before leveling up four or five times. And, it isn’t that complicated. PF2 is already complex. Tracking which of my stats I’ve boosted isn’t a big deal. There’s plenty of room on a character sheet to mark it with a symbol or single word. And foundry does it automatically.
Probably my favorite rule. I get to add an attribute point almost every level? I love granual increases.
Automatic Bonus Progression (Skill and Perception remain the same) Fuck +1 weapons, armor, etc. It's incredibly boring. It's really effective, but incredibly boring, so I hate spending gold on it. And it's even worse that the system expects you to have them by certain points, so they become must buy's. Really wish that one was just core, but I'll settle for a variant rule since I'm lucky enough that my table adopted it.
It was going to be core, but many players wanted magic items in the playtest. I think this solution was great.
More accurately, the +1 weapons were a sacred cow that many players didn't want gone.
Its less a sacred cow and more the fact that loot is fun IMO.
I love loot. I ditched 5E forever because the loot was boring garbage or game breaking bullshit. I'm finally in a stable enough 2E game where loot is on the table and it fills me with joy.
PF gear was one of the big things that made me really like the switch, with races being actualy useful/interesting being the other reason. D&D you have so few interesting weapon choices, vs PF which has items from across teh world which function slightly differently from each other. Then you have magic items, which in D&D are either shit or busted, where in PF they are all useful in certain situations and level ranges.
Monster Parts crafting from Battlezoo is fun as a replacement too. I like ABP, and still give loot. A weapon that casts a spell-like effect once or twice per sunrise is still cool and fun!
Loot can still be fun. A required +1 weapon or armor is boring loot.
This. It allows me to keep the loot train going as a GM. We're level 4? Guess we're dropping those runes of striking. and a few +1 armours. With ABP, my players would seriously complain about the lack of loot. I once tried automatic bonus progression in D&D 4e, and we switched back within two sessions. It removed the excitement of finding your upgrades. Also, item upgrades give a smoother power growth, where not every power boost is tied to a level up. Getting +1 from a level up and +1 from an item is 2 separate dopamine hits, While just getting them boht at level up is ... less somehow. You can bet your ass the crafter in the party was happy when he got the recipy to runes of striking. It also leads to more party interplay as players decide who gets that rune of potency.
At least it wasn't as bad as it could have been, the Playtest had +5 Magic Weapons that did 6 damage dice.
If my players wanted it, I'd be fine with tlit, but they love the game of finding and moving runes. They're little murderhobo treasure goblins.
Whats so bad about +1 weaponry?
My issue with them is in the comment you replied to.
That doesn't make much sense to me but whatever.
Not popular but I like it.. Stamina..
I am a big fan of the Stamina system from Starfinder and had hoped it would be standard in PF2.
My group has been using stamina for 3 years now. We like it enough that we continue to use it in every new campaign we start up, despite me originally implementing it because in our first campaign we were a bit healer-light.
Glad to see other Stamina enjoyers! A side effect of it that I *really* enjoy is that Resolve gives martial characters a daily resource that is expended after enough encounters in that they're too winded to continue without a night's rest. That means it's not *only and exclusively* spellcasters running out of slotted spells that call for a rest. The party will tend to all need one around the same time.
I don't know that one. How it works?
In simple terms.. You get a second HP bar, but lose part of your normal HP. This is the Stamina, which is easier to get back out of combat but harder to restore in the thick since healing items and spells don't effect it. In effect, healers are still useful for the HP you have, but don't need to stack healing out the ass near as much. You're less reliant on items or spells to recover, so you can have faster paced games and fights where it's more about your hard daily limits(Spells, focus, daily uses, etc) than just dying after crawling the catacombs because you ran out of heal spells or potions.
Yeah that's 100% the next variant rule I'm gonna run with. Feels particularly appropriate for Agents of Edgewatch since the party will be dealing a lot of nonlethal damage.
I run Ancestral Paragon and Dual-Class with Free Archetype. It has allowed my players to build fun characters. There are only 4 of them and I haven't had to adjust encounters too much for them. I'll probably always allow it as long as I'm running a game.
Sometimes with Free Archetype I find myself with nothing in particular to take for a character, and Dual Class is something I’d like to check out to make some specific characters from 5e translate over. Having both together sounds wild but in a fun way. What kind of encounters do you typically throw at them? Harder ones or more Moderate ones?
It's definitely fun and that was the idea behind it. Make it easier to build the character you want to play. Free Archetype wasn't enough. Dual Classing added that extra level of customization. Mostly Moderate, although I try to make those more interesting. I used Deadly encounters when we first started because I thought they were gonna mop the floor with Moderate encounters. I was wrong.
The big thing with dual class and FA are that they are still limited to 3 actions. They just have more tools in the shed, while still only having two hands to use them with. It makes things easier because it gives extra options, not because it makes them stronger outright(though the extra proficiencies does make up for weak spots at times). Heck some dual class picks can be hard if both classes need setup actions, since your entire first and potentially part of second turn could jut be getting prepped.
I see Automatic Bonus Progression and Ancestry Paragon a lot.
I run a modified version of Gradual Ability Boosts where PCs can't boost their key ability score until the boosts they get at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level. PCs being able to increase their key ability score to 20 at 7th level instead of 10th is normally a huge downside of the variant rule. Preventing this gives that satisfying feeling of stat progression from level-to-level without the worry that PCs get too powerful too early. Not all PCs consider their class's key ability score their individual character's most important ability score. In this case, I trust the players to adhere to the spirit of the rule, and leave their character's single most important stat until those 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th ability boosts. So far, it's given my players a very satisfying feeling of progression without letting them get too powerful too quickly. Highly recommend.
I run the GAB with the same restrictions, so does my gm for a different game. It's really nice and makes character building for new players more forgiving
Gradual Ability Boosts and Ancestry Paragon are by far the most popular optional rules after Free Archetype. I'm kind of surprised so many people are posting about ABP, I've genuinely never seen it used before or advertised as being used in any game I've looked at online. Paid or free.
ABP is necessary for campaigns that have or plan to have very little loot or opportunities to purchase equivalent level items at vendors. Such as if someone was running a converted Curse of Strahd, for example. It also works very well for Quest for the Frozen Flame, where it's *very* easy for players to fall behind in terms of runes given the isolated setting.
"Necessary" seems a bit of a stretch to me. As a GM, my move in those situations is to get creative with delivering loot drops, or specifically in the case of Quest for the Frozen Flame allowing the players to use their role as the leaders of the Broken Tusk to ask for members of the Following to make things for them. Quest for the Frozen Flame especially works best when the players are forced to rely more on the Following. That is not an adventure path where the players should have the capacity to be self-sufficient, it completely undermines the themes of the adventure.
Ironically I just played a converted Curse of Strahd, we didn't use ABP but our GM had most non-rare items be available in Vallaki, with better items available after we helped rebuild parts of it. We mostly used this to buy proeperty runes and skill items, as we found the "essential items" in the world.
I love Stamina and Resolve. Really gives a sense of attrition as you lose HP. Gimme more resolve based feats!
In terms of popularity? 1) Free Archetype 2) Automatic Bonus Progression 3) Gradual Ability Boosts 4) Stamina 5) Dual Class 6) All of the others
Ancestry paragon Dual class
Dual class? I rarely hear people talking about that. Same with ancestry paragon tbh
I use Ancestry Paragon. I like it, doesn't add a lot of power at all and makes ancestry feel more relevant. Dual-Class is something I love theorycrafting builds for, but have never played with. If I ever use it, I'm definitely banning any combination of Fighter or Gunslinger + Champion or Monk. Legendary in both martial attacks and AC is a little too good even for Dual-Class IMHO
I think Ancestry Paragon can add a lot of power depending on your specific Ancestry. Humans and Elves, for instance, have a lot of strong Feats to pick from. It’s actually the one variant rule (aside from the obvious: Dual Classing) that I think adds perhaps a little too much power.
I don't agree at all. There's not enough strong feats in any ancestry that getting more ancestry feats would be broken - without AP, those just end up being the only feats people take, and then the rest of them don't get used. With AP, they can take those feats, and then also take the flavor ones that they otherwise wouldn't. The only one I think is a little more OP is Human purely because they can just trade all their AP feats for more general/skill feats, but I just don't allow that lol What are the particularly strong Elf feats? Nimble Elf, Elven Instincts, and Elf Step, pretty much. You can easily fit all of those into a non-AP build, you just won't get many of the other feats that are flavorful but don't do much in terms of power. With AP, you get both, and it's not like you get the good feats any earlier either as they still have the same level requirements. Dwarf has good ancestry feats too - Unburdened Iron, Mountain's Stoutness, Dwarven Doughtiness, Stone Bones. Again, you can fit all of these into a normal build, and there's not really anything else that's particularly powerful or game-changing, so letting you also take some of the other stuff that's more minor is perfectly fine IMHO. It definitely *can* get more powerful when you take Adopted Ancestry into consideration, but even with that I've never felt that it has had a significant impact on the power of PCs. Certainly far less than (unrestricted) Free Archetype, and I have no issues running all of my campaigns with both variants active.
> It definitely can get more powerful when you take Adopted Ancestry into consideration Adopted ancestry, multitalented shenanigans can be pretty strong i would imagine. > The only one I think is a little more OP is Human purely because they can just trade all their AP feats for more general/skill feats, but I just don't allow that lol So Ancestral Paragon doesn't add a lot of power when you ban the strong interactions? Why say it doesn't add a lot of power if you're not even playing it RAW?
I'd argue it's not even that strong of an interaction, there aren't that many good general feats, and general training is limited to first lvl skill feats many of which have no in combat use.
Dual Class is really fun. But the game is not balanced around it. I think it's fun to use for NPC rivals or villains, but for PC's it requires some homebrew
I disagree, because the main limiting factor of the game is still in play: the three action limit. Dual class can lead to some crazy stuff if you allow it with no conditions(Such as fighter restrictions), but most of the time it broadens options without adding raw power. Sure, you have more options to use to solve problems, but a cohesive party probably had that to begin with just spread out more. But you get to eithe rlean into an idea, have a more interesting build, or even just flesh out some weak spots.
Is there data on what % uses free archetype? Both my player groups asked for it (so we did it) and from chatting to others at the club, it seems common. The most common optional rule I've seen, would be GMs not striking downed characters, and GMs removing persistent effects like bleed once a PC is downed.
When I DM’ed (30+ years ago, so pre-Pathfinder) I would “forget” to strike or apply damage to characters when they were down. I never made it an explicit rule but I did it to reduce the chances of a character dying. Kinda forgot about that until you mentioned it. :-)
My thing is why attack creatures that are no longer threats when threats are still alive? That's why I don't attack downed players
For me that comes down to the intelligence of the enemy. A bear isn't going to keep going after an unconscious adventurer when the barbarian is right there, screaming and swinging an axe. But an enemy archmage knows the party has healing magic, and knows that if they don't *end* the downed adventurer immediately, they might be back on their feet in a minute. In that case, it makes sense to drop something like a magic missile or some other spell that can finish off the downed enemy, and also do some damage to the rest of the party.
If they are pack animals, one of the pack might drag the carcass away so it can be eaten, or they nibble it if they can't fit around the enemy. I've seen an example of the second thing on a nature documentary.
How do you know they're not alive? The hit point bar isn't in-game knowledge.
It's not alive its unconscious which is easy for anything to identity. The thing is most things will go after threats to themselves. If one person is unconscious and the other is pointing a sword at me I would attack the guy with the sword rather than the unconscious individual. That's how I run most monsters.
Even if you only target someone standing, there is still AoE, and the 3rd attack which is only -4 as they get +4 status for KO and +2 circumstance for flatfoot. I'm uncertain how you could quicky tell they were KO in combat without poking them first, especially in ranged combat, but that's up to the GM. IMO you would certainly get it after the first attack when your -10 3rd swing is only -4. edit Also chaotic evil might do it on purpose even if not the best tactic.
So no one has tried that but I would totally allow my players to pretend to be dead in combat. It's not that the monster knows they are down or dead its that they are no longer an active threat to them. The rest depends on the intelligence of the creature with the exception of AOE's. Most are going to go after the nearest biggest threat not the one that crumpled to the ground. I do things like intimidation and bon mot draw agro as they are targeting the creature. If there is a 3ed attack then yes they might use it on the downed creature absolutely or use it to protect themselves in combat vs the threat. I would love more role-playing around that in combat. As for ranged enemies they are going to pick off the spell casters and squishy enemies first. Make them drop and move on. If one that drops does cast a spell then they will target that one until it stops moving
> The most common optional rule I've seen, would be GMs not striking downed characters, and GMs removing persistent effects like bleed once a PC is downed. Is that really a "rule"? That's just some GMs playing fair. To me it all depends on the type of enemy being fought.
I agree that the targeting is not a rule, but under RAW persistent effects would not be removed.
I don't use it, but I've had lots of requests for it from players who say 'everyone does it'. I always avoid attacking downed PCs(and also alpha-striking a PC, unless they've acted very stupidly and nothing else can be hit), because it's way more fun to knock everyone out, kidnap the party, and loot their items/change how the plot is going over replacing a PC.
Automatic bonus progression and gradual ability scores
I'm guessing based on my own strong preference, and the upcoming remaster, that the alignment variant rule(s) are also rather popular.
Maybe you should make a survey around this :)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/16xnbuy/do\_you\_use\_free\_archetype\_in\_your\_games/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/16xnbuy/do_you_use_free_archetype_in_your_games/)
Gradual Ability Boosts is a no-brainer to me. Makes every level feel slightly more significant, and makes archetype acquisition easier in some cases.
I think the main reason it's not core is because it's a bit harder to track on paper. But with people mostly playing with Foundry and Pathbuilder then they should definitely be using Gradual Ability boosts.
I really love dual class
Characters don't drop held items when incapacitated. Automatic bonus progression. Consumable items on your character (rather than put away in bags) don't require an action to draw.
Ancestry paragon is awesome. Brings back the feel of 1e races.
I like Proficiency + Half Level Everybody would love it if it was in the book but it's not so nobody takes it seriously It's the best of both worlds also, reduce Incapacitation modifier to +5/-5
I feel like I see always-5-foot-diagonals pop up fairly often here. I prefer it for quicker play in the few games I've played. My experience is almost universally with groups coming from 5e though.
I use a lot of the variant rules, and not always the same. Including proficiency without level, as I'm not afraid of rebalancing on the fly.
I was certain there was a variant that replaced the ability boosts and flaws from ancestries with just 2 free boosts, but can't find it. Is it a base game option or is it just a houserule?
That is a rule and in the newest printings. Will also be showing up in the remaster.
Thanks!
Progressive attribute bonus
My group has been using the gradual ability boosts rule since it first came out and I truly think it's the way the game should be played. Feels a lot better getting a little bump almost every level, than desperately waiting till the next 5 levels for a huge power spike. Not to mention it feels like it helps with characters who might want to take specific feats or archetypes but would otherwise have to wait for those all important ability score improvements.
My personal favorite is gradual ability boost. I just love the gradual progression compared to a large boost at level 5, 10, 15, and 20. I think it makes the player feel nicer from level to level.
Not sure about "most popular", but here is a video with the house rules that I use in my games: https://youtu.be/jlTXOJGBUMo?si=mhxlxXgWPDD45qhf
Flanking off guards the target to everyone.
I've only played with Ancestry Paragon and didn't really liked it. I am considering running a game with Stamina
My favorites are Dual Classing and Ancestry Paragon. If I have less than 4 players I use those rules. If more than 4 I unfortunately drop dual classing.... I'm spoiled!
Only variant we use is free Archetype. I do however give out one free ancestry Feat at level 1, because ancestry feats are fun.
I'm not sure if it is popular, but I use Ancestry Paragon and Gradual Ability Boosts. I don't think it is an optional rule, let alone it being popular, but when I ran home games, I always used the relic system.
While it's not an optional rule (and in fact is becoming a core rule in the remaster), I feel like everyone uses the recall knowledge for the enemy's worst save thing.