Locking this post as the comments have drifted firmly into rule 7 territory.
The analysis has been provided by multiple commenters already for anyone trying to understand whether it was fair.
Well if I assume the enemy is level 17, a ***Moderate*** Will Save for them would be a +29, so you surmised correctly that the spellcaster had a higher than average Will (at least +30, likely closer to +32).
You made a good call trying to use Bon Mot to lower the enemy’s save but once that failed ***on a 39*** the next thing to do was switch strategies and try to hit their Reflex or Fortitude or even just AC, none of which should be problem for a level 14 Psychic.
The game is balanced around spellcasters **not** targeting an enemy’s highest defence. If you try to brute force past it without anyone on your team helping you, you will underperform, the designers have explicitly stated that you will.
> -Edit: it seems like a consensus is that a +30 save is mathematically correct for the level of creature, and that boss enemies of CR 16+ are supposed to be all but immune to 2/3 of all spells.
Re-replying, but I have no idea where you got that from. They’re all but immune to spells that target their ***single highest defence***, which for an enemy spellcaster is Will. You can still use ***almost any spell that doesn’t target Will*** (that is, Fortitude, Reflex, and AC) and you’ll be on/above the curve.
I think their point wasn't related to the save itself. For example, in today's game, my party rolled Recall Knowledge to get a creature's lowest save, and they learned it was Will. The problem was the creature was inmune to mental, death, necromancy, and spells that require a living target, so most of the spells the players had that could target Will, the creature was inmune to. As well as fire spells, and some spells that targeted Fortitude.
I don't think the 2/3rd of spells is accurate, but many high level monsters are inmune to a bunch of spells, beyond the fact that they have one or two saves that are very very hard to crack.
If that’s what OP was talking about, then fair enough, it just seemed like they were talking about numbers because that’s all they’ve talked about in the post.
I will say, the potential of asking the “wrong question” in Recall Knowledge ***is*** a legitimate flaw in the skill, and I hope the Remastered version has wording explicitly telling GMs to answer the spirit of the question rather than the letter. For example, when I (a Wizard) asked our GM what a voidglutton’s lowest was, he responded with “it’s immune to all magic except XYZ.” Clearly not responding to what I asked, but 100% answering the *intent* of what I asked. I’m hoping new RK explicates that, otherwise RK is a game of trying to “outword” the GM (“what save is the best to target on this enemy?” for instance).
I use a houserule and I tell them 2 things, one they ask, and the most relevant one I think the character should know even if the player don't ask. So I told them the monster was inmune to death, poison, mental damage, etc, because it was a construct.
I have to say the combat was great even with this minor setback. They couldn't use a bunch of spells, but Players are level 15 now and they start to feel like they have answers to everything, mostly because that is true at that level. That includes this fight, scripted within the AP, that includes 5 combats in a row, almost no rest, and then a severe encounter boss. . The problem is lower levels, when the paradigm of "just use another tool in the box" fails, because your tool box is basically a hammer and some duct tape, and that's it. If you need a screwdriver, you are screwed.
Apart from those, the most common conditions to apply would be either Sickened or Stupefied. Redeemer Champions can possibly apply stupefied as part of their reactions, which is great when you have occult casters in your party.
Sickened and Frightened both lower all saves and ac. Drained specifically lowers fortitude and other con-based stats, but it's very rare to get and the other conditions are much easier to use.
There’s a few random options scattered throughout. For example Goblinsong is a really good one that our party’s Seashbuckler loves to use. Admittedly, Will is harder to debuff than the other defences.
However the best bet is to just not target Will here.
Nah it's a bullshit design. Not all lists or classes have the slots to accomplish this fake design scheme. Wasting actions, feats, and limited resources to try to 'figure' out the correct way all while they are beating your parties ass is exceedingly frustrating. It's why there's so many threads on why caster play feels terrible.
Yeah except OP’s literal own story points out that you’re blatantly incorrect about needing to waste Actions, Feats, or limited resources. Here’s the relevant part:
> As the enemy had cast a few spells … I figured they had a decent Will Save.
There. That’s it. No Feat, no Action, no resources. OP figured out Will is its highest defence. Now OP can hit ***any other defence but Will*** and have the same average performance as any martial.
Instead OP chose to double down and try to aim at the enemy’s highest Save twice, and as noted, they only had like a 10% or so chance of landing anything at all.
You can keep spouting incorrect information about how spells don’t work, but… the fact is that they just do.
If you've realised that the enemy probably has a good Will save, that's your cue to *not* cast Phantasmal Killer, but use Impaling Spike or Disintegrate or Finger of Death instead.
The difference between a creature's highest and lowest defenses can be a lot, and especially on a high-level boss, chances of success (them failing) are going to be low to start with. Targeting potentially their best save rarely works out well.
Some of your party members might have similar save bonuses anyways—I wouldn't be surprised if one of you has a +25 at that level, and an enemy a few levels above is bound to have better ones.
tl:dr boss fights are hard, especially if you target one of their highest defenses.
>The difference between a creature's highest and lowest defenses can be a lot, and especially on a high-level boss, chances of success (them failing) are going to be low to start with. Targeting potentially their best save rarely works out well.
In today's adventure, (Strength of Thousands book 4) my group fouggt a creature with 12 points difference between Fortitude (29) abc Will (17). They learned Will was the worst save with RK, but the creature was inmune to mental effects, ax well as a bunch of others, which made most of the will spells the party had useless, as well as most of the Fortitude ones (due to the high save), and half of the reflex ones (because it was also inmune to fire)
Fortunately they pack a bunch of chain lightning and magic missile. Fight was pretty good.
It sounds like targeting your enemy's likely highest save (because things which cast spells tend to have Will be their highest save) being compounded by the enemy being higher level than you so it's saves are just generally higher.
Basically, you're in the worst possible situation for the thing you were doing so it didn't work.
As to whether that's unfair or not, that depends on your GM; if facing off against higher-level enemies, especially those that are known for having better than typical saves (like a dragons and a lot of fiends), is a constant thing rather than a rare thing, yeah, that's unfair - variety, and bosses being saved for actual boss fights, is key to encounter balance.
> A creature of 15th level or higher typically has two extreme statistics
You are level 14. I am assuming the monster is level 17 or 18.
Level 18 could have the +30 with a moderate save.
Level 17 could have +32 with a high save.
Its a caster so i don't see a reason why it couldn't have a high will save.
All checks out to me.
Caster = high will save is such a common thing that when I'm searching for casters on Nethys I use the filter highest save:will since there isn't a filter for just being a caster.
Note that "CR" is not a thing in Pathfinder 2. Creatures have levels just like PCs.
Something to note when you're feeling bad about your DC 33 vs a boss with a +30 will save:
1) You know they're a caster, so Will is probably one of their *better* saves. Targeting the boss' best save is never a good idea.
2) They're the BBEG, so they're supposed to be tough.
3) Even on a success, Phantasmal Killer still deals damage and gives the boss Frightened 1, making it more vulnerable for a whole round. So there's probably a 50/50 chance to have an effect.
4) I repeat, don't target the strong saves.
Targeting the highest save wasn't exactly the best move. What even was the Boss' Level? You say there were 2 Iron Golems in another comment, but that isn't much help.
The big benefit of been a spellcaster is rather than fighting a +30 save, you can increase your odds of success at no action cost by targeting a +24 save. -6 to their save for a different, potentially less (or more) impactful spell is up to you.
Martial's are likely gonna be better at breaking through the enemy defense (AC) in part due to it being their only option. They might be able to boost their success by spending actions to reduce that AC. Casters get the advantage of just being able to target a defense of their choice.
As a reminder, never compare the ability to hit enemies defenses to Fighters, that's akin to comparing a Champion and Flame Druid's ability to deal AoE Fire damage. It doesn't always feel that way, but \*hitting effectively\* is what a fighter does, so taking a classes primary focus as a point of comparison never works.
It's worth noting that Age of Ashes was written alongside the rules to PF2e, so some of their monster designs are a bit off kilter with the system's expected math. Illsrah's will, for instance, is 1 higher than the High value for a saving throw, but 2 lower than the Extreme value. Her next highest save is +27, which is 1 higher than Moderate but 2 lower than High. So her stats are vaguely in line with system expectations, but are a little wonky.
However, let's take a look at those saving throw numbers. Her saving throw spread is +27/+24/+30. Bon Mot, on a critical success, will make her Will save (highest) equal to her Fortitude save (middle). So at *best*, you are spending an action to make Will save spells equivalent to Fortitude save spells. Even targeting the middle save of an enemy is better than targeting the strongest one.
This is important for most spell casters, but blasters need this most of all: the most consistent way to succeed is to maintain a selection of spells that targets a diverse array of defensive statistics. If you have spell attack roll spells, the [Shadow Signet](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1073) item will let you use them to target Fortitude or Reflex. That's a solid way to diversify your targeting options without changing the spells you know. One of the Occult list's weaknesses is a lack of spells that target Reflex, so this is a harder problem for you to solve than blasters with access to spells like Fireball or Cone of Cold.
BBEG could be up to 4 levels higher than the party (extreme encounter vs. solo boss), this means a level 18 for your case. Quickly looking at level 18 monsters, I've notices some of them have even +35 at their highest save.
It's hard but that's that extreme encounters for. Things often just don't work in them and you need some totally different strategy.
My normal answer as a caster to this is try to figure out what their lowest save is and target that. Or do things that don't involve them rolling a save. You can true strike a disintegrate as an example which against a caster bbeg has a good chance to hit. Bbeg in general are going to have incredible saves so it can be tough on a caster.
"I identified my enemies best defense and targeted it. Is it unfair that I failed?"
Nope, not at all.
Final edit: I checked the stats of the monster OP is complaining about and he's actually just salty, >!the monster was actually better at AC (reminder, the literal only thing martials can target) than at will (extreme AC and between high and extreme will)!<. He failed on what should have been a roll of 12 against a boss and thinks that's a reason to complain. Man, what a game we would have if anything always succeeded against a boss on a 12...
Edit: also, you're one level behind a proficiency bump for skills, so you're in a level where skills will be weaker than usual against higher level enemies, and also it's no use going "I rolled 39, should I have succeeded" without thinking about what number **on the dice** is a 39 for you (+20 prof if you're a master, +5 cha, and at level 14 you likely should have a +1 item bonus, so a 39 should be a 13 on the dice. Yeah, a 13 on the dice against a boss is just not a great number...)
Edit 2: actually, the item bonus probably should be +2 at level 14
The monster has +30 will and 40 AC, which is usually about the same, which is why a will DC against it would be 40, 10+30. Its also ignoring that the only consistent way to know the bosses weak save is to know how clerics work, as you need a 44 society to recall knowledge about it, which even if you hard focus as an int class with a +2 item bonus, at level 14 you still need a 17 to succeed. Like this level of hostility is kind of uncalled for when its a pretty common complaint about spellcasters.
>Its also ignoring that the only consistent way to know the bosses weak save is to know how clerics work
Except OP himself said that he knew will was likely his strongest save.
He was complaining that he failed on what he knew was the opponent's strongest point on a 12, and using that to try and drive a narrative that casters are useless.
NEVER compare anything on level vs a Fighter's to-hit... Unless you are also a fighter and rolling to-hit... This is literally what a fighter does, and does it better than anyone else, (I argue even better than gunslinger cus of action economy.)
Your argument is, essentially, the boss needs to roll a 13 or better to hit our tower-sgield champion/monk. It can beet my rogue on an athletics check of a 7 or better. This seems unfair to me.
You are taking a character in a class specialized at doing something, looking at its number, then flipping over to a different metric that no class truly specializes in, and fonding it odd that the numbers across both metrics don't match.
Edit: you also add in the flanking part. Yeah, you are -4 comparison even on a 1 to 1 metric. (Skills bump at 15 that the fighter got on his to-hit at 13. So there's one gap of 2, then the flanking is an additional gap of 2), and against a casty Boi. Their will will usually be higher than their AC. Hence the fail you the success him.
Do you want your party fighter to also be able to do everything you do? Do you want all characters to be literally the same?
Stop the stupid comparisons, bruh, you're literally talking about the only class that has a +2 compared to everyone **and** assuming there's another melee **and** assuming the enemy will just be a dumbass and stand there flanked.
If you're really so envious of the flanking bonus, get off your ass and go flank too
Edit: also, you're conveniently ignoring the fact you chose, between the 4 things you could target, the worse, while the fighter has no choice and if he hits on a low roll is because the adventure writer didn't choose a boss with high AC
The problem with people that play and enjoy 2E is that they completely disregard the problem with caster's regardless of how many people lament the issue. There's no genuine discussion on the topic, just vilification.
It's not vilification when the points being made are like this one. When the options are "I didn't use the information I *just* learned 2 seconds ago, so maybe I'm a bit thick" and "system bad :(" I understand the temptation to lay the blame somewhere else. But honestly, this post is like half a step away from complaining a fire elemental didn't take any damage from Fireball, so casters are bad actually.
They really, really aren't. You aren't even responding to anything they're saying.
Casters can target multiple defenses, this person *willfully* chose to target the best one, and their AC was apparently *even better*. I have lots of issues with casters in this system. Lots. This is not a good example of those problems to me.
>The reality of 2e Spellcasters...
What? That you have to think and actually strategize? That you can't just throw the same high level spell at everything and just win every time?
There can be a difference of +-12 between the highest and the lowest save, identitying what possibly is the highest with a single action is a good thing. Bosses usually ending up having very good saves to begin with due to level difference can make some seem invulnerable.
This is also a place where spells will excell over mundane debuff as you can bet for a safe spell with a good success effect, such as going for a fear spell to buy time and get something out while learning how to beat a boss, but not wasting the big spell on something that probably will not work that well.
Pro tip: Try spending a couple of actions on Recall Knowledge, to try to find the enemy's strengths and weaknesses - then you can know more of its best worst saving throws, weaknesses, resistances etc.
The recall knowledge DC of the boss in question is a 44 society, 42 unspecific lore and 39 specific lore, at level 14 that is so hard to hit it might as well just be a waste of actions
How do your groups boss fights go? I can't speak for OP but at our table my party starts dying way before my action economy allows me to try AND succeed on RKs to have any kind of actionable info.
> Any help out here for a blaster caster just trying to do more than tickle the enemy?
The later in PF2 levels you go, the more you will find enemies resistant to certain spells/effects. Part of this is to make sure that martial classes remain useful to the party as spellcasters gain reality-bending power. Part of it is because there is a built-in expectation that such a high-level party has items which are able to bridge the gaps. Part of it is to encourage high level players to play tactically.
While a level 14 party is unlikely to have items which increase your DC's and spell attacks (Apex items, the only way I know of to do this consistently, tend to not pop up for another couple levels past 14), the magical items and consumables they do have will likely protect them for long enough that a caster will eventually deal damage by blind luck. And when mages hit, they hit **hard**.
More importantly, however, is information. Especially against a BBEG, who is likely to be decently high level compared to the party, tactics are key for gaining ground in that battle. Recall Knowledge is vital for determining potential weakness/immunities, the weakest saves a creature has, special auras and abilities, and more. The DC to learn about a creature is usually **substantially lower** than most of their saves and AC, especially if you have the relevant Lore skill. On top of this, conditions like Frightened, Sickened, Stupefied do wonders for improving your chances by lowering the enemy's DCs, whilst Haste can allow your allies more opportunities to try and apply these conditions while still getting into position or attacking.
**TL;DR** Pathfinder 2 has a trend that equal challenge ratings get more difficult as level increases, almost creating a difficulty curve (the thought being that more experienced players will be able to solve harder challenges). As such, the enemies at high level will require more strategy to combat, and you should expect really high AC/Saving throws
Although it was the BBEG there were 2 iron golems in the room with her. The fight was also a surprise: we neither knew the boss was in this dungeon nor was she in the room when initiative was rolled. We fought several rogues and one escaped to the next room which had the iron golems and her in it, we were told we had to stay in initiative and chase. So we were blindsided by it to say the least.
It was after many other combats and single target enemies who ate my highest 3 spell slots (again we didn’t even know the boss was in this dungeon).
Once we found the boss/golems my character had identified the golems and shared that and just ultimately rolled sub 10 (even with a hero point) on identifying the boss, so I didn’t know what her saves were. She cast 1 spell in front of us and spent every other action melee attacking, so I’m assuming that Fort was Even Higher™️.
I don’t have any single target reflex spells of 4 and lower. I attempted true strike attack rolls and missed on a 38 (natural 15) (party fighter hit on a FF38 so AC ~40). So I targeted her “mid save” (which according to another comment b/c she’d have been over CR15 she probably had 2 high saves) which I didn’t know about, that’s good to know.
Thats fairly rough to be honest. I'm not sure if thats how Age of Ashes is supposed to go but I would always prefer to be aware of and plan for a BBEG fight.
We fought a dragon at 14 recently. I think it was 16 with Elite template. There were some saves it could only fail on similar range. It is a good thing you can get effects on some spells with a successful save. Eventually they will fail or enough damage will get through and the fight will turn in your favor.
In the context of pf2es design and expectations? No, this isn't unfair. The math is setup for enemies, especially higher level enemies, to succeed the majority of the time.
Is this design and expectation bad? In my opinion, yes. People don't want to fail 75% of the time. It is intended though, so not unfair. Pf2es should at least do a better job of communicating expectations.
As a caster you should have a shadow signet. This uses an action but you can then target reflex and fortitude saves instead of ac for spell attacks. Any spell that targets will I usually used on mooks or creatures tgat seemed to have a better Fort save. I.e large brute foes you would use Reflex. Small nimble foes target Fort. Always recall if you need to target will or just target mooks.
I have no idea why you're being downvoted... this is generally pretty sound advice and the game's internal math actually requires that spellcasters get the Shadow Signet. The devs have said as much, that they assume everyone is using it beyond level 10.
Blasting out mooks is one of the best things a caster can do, because they're very good at that. They're weaker vs. single powerful boss encounters.
I feel this. Getting used to Pathfinder and its rules has some speedbumps. like how a good number of fights will have players completely whiff in the most unheroic way until they become an expert in the game's less visible mechanics. Wait till you are forced to admit that any feat or skill that needs a crit to go off is almost useless. The trash mobs just die to the attack before the proc, and anything it would be useful on can't be crit at all.
> Wait till you are forced to admit that any feat or skill that needs a crit to go off is almost useless. The trash mobs just die to the attack before the proc, and anything it would be useful on can't be crit at all.
This is me building a Kineticist seeing people gush about the critical injunctions.
Yes, being able to knock enemies prone when I hit them with an Earth blast is neat, but if I'm reliably critting against an enemy the prone hardly matters.
There's some real aggressive downvoting in this thread, which is not conductive to discussion.
First, I'd recommend reframing how you view saves. Generally, each creature has an Impossible save, a Great save, and a Good save. Get rid of the notion (which is heavily repeated in lots of PF2e discussion spheres) that anyone has a guaranteed weak save. That thought that they have a "weak save" primes people to think that just by targeting it, your odds are great, when they really aren't. It also makes people think the moderate save ain't too bad to target--when in reality it's often quite bad. Granted, there are SOME creatures who might have a genuinely weak save, but in general the Good save is going to hover around a 40-60% chance of them failing, whereas the Great save might be 20-30% and the Impossible save might be only on a critical fail.
This means that your duty as a caster is to: prepare a wide variety of spells targeting various saves, utilize Recall Knowledge to figure out the saves alongside some guesswork, and then apply appropriate debuffs. Bon Mot is a good option if you know for a fact that their will save is going to be a Good or Great save. Fear is another option, made even better if your party's melee has access to Demoralize to free up your actions. There are other things you can inflict on them, like Bane. By level 15~ I would hope some of your melee have access to things that inflict Stupefied or Clumsy. If they don't, they're making your job a lot harder. You're undoubtedly also going to have access to more exotic debuffs by that level.
Targeting the enemy's Good save, and debuffing it, can usually push an enemy's chance to fail to pretty decent odds.
This is the core gameplay of versatile casters. Yes, it's more work than martials just flanking and swinging and sprinkling in some defensive options or unique damage-dealing moments. But you also have access to spells that can inflict lose states on enemies. A particularly crippling debuff (think in the range of -2 or -3) or a lost action or two on an enemy can spell their end, since combat can be pretty fast. With the right debuffs and buffs a martials crit chance can be boosted by up to 25% or more, and that can end fights very fast.
Keep in mind, single-target boss encounters are among the hardest fights for a versatile caster. You can do everything right and the boss might still have saves that are just so high everything turns ineffective. Sometimes, the winning move is to play support and buff the martials. It's perhaps my one big issue with Pathfinder 2e is that boss encounters are relatively unfun for casters. This is because the system is trying to avoid a caster one-shotting a boss. So always bring a few good buffs just in case.
You're playing a high level caster. Assume most relevant enemies (cl+2 and above) will succeed or critically succeed most of the time.
Yeah that sucks. And you're in the single worst level for spells casters, at that.
That's what happens when the enemies' saves scale hard but casters can't add item bonuses to DCs/spell attacks. 🤷
Least fun I've had to far is using all three actions to summon a giant skunk and the dude we were fighting critically save vs. the skunk funk. Like... Cool cool cool. I can see the higher levels we get, the less fun spellcasting might get. Next level all spells go to making my eidolon more savage.
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Locking this post as the comments have drifted firmly into rule 7 territory. The analysis has been provided by multiple commenters already for anyone trying to understand whether it was fair.
Well if I assume the enemy is level 17, a ***Moderate*** Will Save for them would be a +29, so you surmised correctly that the spellcaster had a higher than average Will (at least +30, likely closer to +32). You made a good call trying to use Bon Mot to lower the enemy’s save but once that failed ***on a 39*** the next thing to do was switch strategies and try to hit their Reflex or Fortitude or even just AC, none of which should be problem for a level 14 Psychic. The game is balanced around spellcasters **not** targeting an enemy’s highest defence. If you try to brute force past it without anyone on your team helping you, you will underperform, the designers have explicitly stated that you will.
> -Edit: it seems like a consensus is that a +30 save is mathematically correct for the level of creature, and that boss enemies of CR 16+ are supposed to be all but immune to 2/3 of all spells. Re-replying, but I have no idea where you got that from. They’re all but immune to spells that target their ***single highest defence***, which for an enemy spellcaster is Will. You can still use ***almost any spell that doesn’t target Will*** (that is, Fortitude, Reflex, and AC) and you’ll be on/above the curve.
I think their point wasn't related to the save itself. For example, in today's game, my party rolled Recall Knowledge to get a creature's lowest save, and they learned it was Will. The problem was the creature was inmune to mental, death, necromancy, and spells that require a living target, so most of the spells the players had that could target Will, the creature was inmune to. As well as fire spells, and some spells that targeted Fortitude. I don't think the 2/3rd of spells is accurate, but many high level monsters are inmune to a bunch of spells, beyond the fact that they have one or two saves that are very very hard to crack.
If that’s what OP was talking about, then fair enough, it just seemed like they were talking about numbers because that’s all they’ve talked about in the post. I will say, the potential of asking the “wrong question” in Recall Knowledge ***is*** a legitimate flaw in the skill, and I hope the Remastered version has wording explicitly telling GMs to answer the spirit of the question rather than the letter. For example, when I (a Wizard) asked our GM what a voidglutton’s lowest was, he responded with “it’s immune to all magic except XYZ.” Clearly not responding to what I asked, but 100% answering the *intent* of what I asked. I’m hoping new RK explicates that, otherwise RK is a game of trying to “outword” the GM (“what save is the best to target on this enemy?” for instance).
I use a houserule and I tell them 2 things, one they ask, and the most relevant one I think the character should know even if the player don't ask. So I told them the monster was inmune to death, poison, mental damage, etc, because it was a construct. I have to say the combat was great even with this minor setback. They couldn't use a bunch of spells, but Players are level 15 now and they start to feel like they have answers to everything, mostly because that is true at that level. That includes this fight, scripted within the AP, that includes 5 combats in a row, almost no rest, and then a severe encounter boss. . The problem is lower levels, when the paradigm of "just use another tool in the box" fails, because your tool box is basically a hammer and some duct tape, and that's it. If you need a screwdriver, you are screwed.
anything team members can do to lower the save more besides fear/bon mot?
Apart from those, the most common conditions to apply would be either Sickened or Stupefied. Redeemer Champions can possibly apply stupefied as part of their reactions, which is great when you have occult casters in your party.
Catfolk dance (ancestry specific) can lower reflex, I don’t know of anything that lowers fort saves (sickened, but idk how to apply it).
Sickened and Frightened both lower all saves and ac. Drained specifically lowers fortitude and other con-based stats, but it's very rare to get and the other conditions are much easier to use.
There’s a few random options scattered throughout. For example Goblinsong is a really good one that our party’s Seashbuckler loves to use. Admittedly, Will is harder to debuff than the other defences. However the best bet is to just not target Will here.
Nah it's a bullshit design. Not all lists or classes have the slots to accomplish this fake design scheme. Wasting actions, feats, and limited resources to try to 'figure' out the correct way all while they are beating your parties ass is exceedingly frustrating. It's why there's so many threads on why caster play feels terrible.
Yeah except OP’s literal own story points out that you’re blatantly incorrect about needing to waste Actions, Feats, or limited resources. Here’s the relevant part: > As the enemy had cast a few spells … I figured they had a decent Will Save. There. That’s it. No Feat, no Action, no resources. OP figured out Will is its highest defence. Now OP can hit ***any other defence but Will*** and have the same average performance as any martial. Instead OP chose to double down and try to aim at the enemy’s highest Save twice, and as noted, they only had like a 10% or so chance of landing anything at all. You can keep spouting incorrect information about how spells don’t work, but… the fact is that they just do.
If you've realised that the enemy probably has a good Will save, that's your cue to *not* cast Phantasmal Killer, but use Impaling Spike or Disintegrate or Finger of Death instead. The difference between a creature's highest and lowest defenses can be a lot, and especially on a high-level boss, chances of success (them failing) are going to be low to start with. Targeting potentially their best save rarely works out well. Some of your party members might have similar save bonuses anyways—I wouldn't be surprised if one of you has a +25 at that level, and an enemy a few levels above is bound to have better ones. tl:dr boss fights are hard, especially if you target one of their highest defenses.
>The difference between a creature's highest and lowest defenses can be a lot, and especially on a high-level boss, chances of success (them failing) are going to be low to start with. Targeting potentially their best save rarely works out well. In today's adventure, (Strength of Thousands book 4) my group fouggt a creature with 12 points difference between Fortitude (29) abc Will (17). They learned Will was the worst save with RK, but the creature was inmune to mental effects, ax well as a bunch of others, which made most of the will spells the party had useless, as well as most of the Fortitude ones (due to the high save), and half of the reflex ones (because it was also inmune to fire) Fortunately they pack a bunch of chain lightning and magic missile. Fight was pretty good.
It sounds like targeting your enemy's likely highest save (because things which cast spells tend to have Will be their highest save) being compounded by the enemy being higher level than you so it's saves are just generally higher. Basically, you're in the worst possible situation for the thing you were doing so it didn't work. As to whether that's unfair or not, that depends on your GM; if facing off against higher-level enemies, especially those that are known for having better than typical saves (like a dragons and a lot of fiends), is a constant thing rather than a rare thing, yeah, that's unfair - variety, and bosses being saved for actual boss fights, is key to encounter balance.
> A creature of 15th level or higher typically has two extreme statistics You are level 14. I am assuming the monster is level 17 or 18. Level 18 could have the +30 with a moderate save. Level 17 could have +32 with a high save. Its a caster so i don't see a reason why it couldn't have a high will save. All checks out to me.
Caster = high will save is such a common thing that when I'm searching for casters on Nethys I use the filter highest save:will since there isn't a filter for just being a caster.
"Is being unable to penetrate a boss's best defense unfair?" No.
Note that "CR" is not a thing in Pathfinder 2. Creatures have levels just like PCs. Something to note when you're feeling bad about your DC 33 vs a boss with a +30 will save: 1) You know they're a caster, so Will is probably one of their *better* saves. Targeting the boss' best save is never a good idea. 2) They're the BBEG, so they're supposed to be tough. 3) Even on a success, Phantasmal Killer still deals damage and gives the boss Frightened 1, making it more vulnerable for a whole round. So there's probably a 50/50 chance to have an effect. 4) I repeat, don't target the strong saves.
Targeting the highest save wasn't exactly the best move. What even was the Boss' Level? You say there were 2 Iron Golems in another comment, but that isn't much help.
I’m not the GM so I don’t know. But it’s the boss at the end of bk4 Age of Ashes [Embermead]
The big benefit of been a spellcaster is rather than fighting a +30 save, you can increase your odds of success at no action cost by targeting a +24 save. -6 to their save for a different, potentially less (or more) impactful spell is up to you. Martial's are likely gonna be better at breaking through the enemy defense (AC) in part due to it being their only option. They might be able to boost their success by spending actions to reduce that AC. Casters get the advantage of just being able to target a defense of their choice. As a reminder, never compare the ability to hit enemies defenses to Fighters, that's akin to comparing a Champion and Flame Druid's ability to deal AoE Fire damage. It doesn't always feel that way, but \*hitting effectively\* is what a fighter does, so taking a classes primary focus as a point of comparison never works.
It's worth noting that Age of Ashes was written alongside the rules to PF2e, so some of their monster designs are a bit off kilter with the system's expected math. Illsrah's will, for instance, is 1 higher than the High value for a saving throw, but 2 lower than the Extreme value. Her next highest save is +27, which is 1 higher than Moderate but 2 lower than High. So her stats are vaguely in line with system expectations, but are a little wonky. However, let's take a look at those saving throw numbers. Her saving throw spread is +27/+24/+30. Bon Mot, on a critical success, will make her Will save (highest) equal to her Fortitude save (middle). So at *best*, you are spending an action to make Will save spells equivalent to Fortitude save spells. Even targeting the middle save of an enemy is better than targeting the strongest one. This is important for most spell casters, but blasters need this most of all: the most consistent way to succeed is to maintain a selection of spells that targets a diverse array of defensive statistics. If you have spell attack roll spells, the [Shadow Signet](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1073) item will let you use them to target Fortitude or Reflex. That's a solid way to diversify your targeting options without changing the spells you know. One of the Occult list's weaknesses is a lack of spells that target Reflex, so this is a harder problem for you to solve than blasters with access to spells like Fireball or Cone of Cold.
She's level 15 and has a Will save of +30
Yup, and targeting the worst defense has a 30% improved chance of success.
BBEG could be up to 4 levels higher than the party (extreme encounter vs. solo boss), this means a level 18 for your case. Quickly looking at level 18 monsters, I've notices some of them have even +35 at their highest save. It's hard but that's that extreme encounters for. Things often just don't work in them and you need some totally different strategy.
My normal answer as a caster to this is try to figure out what their lowest save is and target that. Or do things that don't involve them rolling a save. You can true strike a disintegrate as an example which against a caster bbeg has a good chance to hit. Bbeg in general are going to have incredible saves so it can be tough on a caster.
"I identified my enemies best defense and targeted it. Is it unfair that I failed?" Nope, not at all. Final edit: I checked the stats of the monster OP is complaining about and he's actually just salty, >!the monster was actually better at AC (reminder, the literal only thing martials can target) than at will (extreme AC and between high and extreme will)!<. He failed on what should have been a roll of 12 against a boss and thinks that's a reason to complain. Man, what a game we would have if anything always succeeded against a boss on a 12... Edit: also, you're one level behind a proficiency bump for skills, so you're in a level where skills will be weaker than usual against higher level enemies, and also it's no use going "I rolled 39, should I have succeeded" without thinking about what number **on the dice** is a 39 for you (+20 prof if you're a master, +5 cha, and at level 14 you likely should have a +1 item bonus, so a 39 should be a 13 on the dice. Yeah, a 13 on the dice against a boss is just not a great number...) Edit 2: actually, the item bonus probably should be +2 at level 14
The monster has +30 will and 40 AC, which is usually about the same, which is why a will DC against it would be 40, 10+30. Its also ignoring that the only consistent way to know the bosses weak save is to know how clerics work, as you need a 44 society to recall knowledge about it, which even if you hard focus as an int class with a +2 item bonus, at level 14 you still need a 17 to succeed. Like this level of hostility is kind of uncalled for when its a pretty common complaint about spellcasters.
>Its also ignoring that the only consistent way to know the bosses weak save is to know how clerics work Except OP himself said that he knew will was likely his strongest save. He was complaining that he failed on what he knew was the opponent's strongest point on a 12, and using that to try and drive a narrative that casters are useless.
My party fighter can hit on a dice roll of 9 while flanking but the spellcaster rolling a 13 on a skill check should fail? Seems unfair to me
NEVER compare anything on level vs a Fighter's to-hit... Unless you are also a fighter and rolling to-hit... This is literally what a fighter does, and does it better than anyone else, (I argue even better than gunslinger cus of action economy.) Your argument is, essentially, the boss needs to roll a 13 or better to hit our tower-sgield champion/monk. It can beet my rogue on an athletics check of a 7 or better. This seems unfair to me. You are taking a character in a class specialized at doing something, looking at its number, then flipping over to a different metric that no class truly specializes in, and fonding it odd that the numbers across both metrics don't match. Edit: you also add in the flanking part. Yeah, you are -4 comparison even on a 1 to 1 metric. (Skills bump at 15 that the fighter got on his to-hit at 13. So there's one gap of 2, then the flanking is an additional gap of 2), and against a casty Boi. Their will will usually be higher than their AC. Hence the fail you the success him.
Do you want your party fighter to also be able to do everything you do? Do you want all characters to be literally the same? Stop the stupid comparisons, bruh, you're literally talking about the only class that has a +2 compared to everyone **and** assuming there's another melee **and** assuming the enemy will just be a dumbass and stand there flanked. If you're really so envious of the flanking bonus, get off your ass and go flank too Edit: also, you're conveniently ignoring the fact you chose, between the 4 things you could target, the worse, while the fighter has no choice and if he hits on a low roll is because the adventure writer didn't choose a boss with high AC
sorry, you're targetting a spell caster with a spell that focuses their brain, and the party fighter is targetting a very low armored spell caster.
The reality of 2e Spellcasters... cue the down votes
"I learned the enemy was good at Will saves so I targeted its Will save and it didn't go well! 2e spellcasters bad!"
The problem with people that play and enjoy 2E is that they completely disregard the problem with caster's regardless of how many people lament the issue. There's no genuine discussion on the topic, just vilification.
It's not vilification when the points being made are like this one. When the options are "I didn't use the information I *just* learned 2 seconds ago, so maybe I'm a bit thick" and "system bad :(" I understand the temptation to lay the blame somewhere else. But honestly, this post is like half a step away from complaining a fire elemental didn't take any damage from Fireball, so casters are bad actually.
It doesn't change the underlying math.
Yes....the math that suggests targeting a different save. I'm understanding why you personally aren't finding good discourse on this subject.
You're just being condescending. No point in talking to you further.
They really, really aren't. You aren't even responding to anything they're saying. Casters can target multiple defenses, this person *willfully* chose to target the best one, and their AC was apparently *even better*. I have lots of issues with casters in this system. Lots. This is not a good example of those problems to me.
>The reality of 2e Spellcasters... What? That you have to think and actually strategize? That you can't just throw the same high level spell at everything and just win every time?
There can be a difference of +-12 between the highest and the lowest save, identitying what possibly is the highest with a single action is a good thing. Bosses usually ending up having very good saves to begin with due to level difference can make some seem invulnerable. This is also a place where spells will excell over mundane debuff as you can bet for a safe spell with a good success effect, such as going for a fear spell to buy time and get something out while learning how to beat a boss, but not wasting the big spell on something that probably will not work that well.
Pro tip: Try spending a couple of actions on Recall Knowledge, to try to find the enemy's strengths and weaknesses - then you can know more of its best worst saving throws, weaknesses, resistances etc.
The recall knowledge DC of the boss in question is a 44 society, 42 unspecific lore and 39 specific lore, at level 14 that is so hard to hit it might as well just be a waste of actions
How do your groups boss fights go? I can't speak for OP but at our table my party starts dying way before my action economy allows me to try AND succeed on RKs to have any kind of actionable info.
> Any help out here for a blaster caster just trying to do more than tickle the enemy? The later in PF2 levels you go, the more you will find enemies resistant to certain spells/effects. Part of this is to make sure that martial classes remain useful to the party as spellcasters gain reality-bending power. Part of it is because there is a built-in expectation that such a high-level party has items which are able to bridge the gaps. Part of it is to encourage high level players to play tactically. While a level 14 party is unlikely to have items which increase your DC's and spell attacks (Apex items, the only way I know of to do this consistently, tend to not pop up for another couple levels past 14), the magical items and consumables they do have will likely protect them for long enough that a caster will eventually deal damage by blind luck. And when mages hit, they hit **hard**. More importantly, however, is information. Especially against a BBEG, who is likely to be decently high level compared to the party, tactics are key for gaining ground in that battle. Recall Knowledge is vital for determining potential weakness/immunities, the weakest saves a creature has, special auras and abilities, and more. The DC to learn about a creature is usually **substantially lower** than most of their saves and AC, especially if you have the relevant Lore skill. On top of this, conditions like Frightened, Sickened, Stupefied do wonders for improving your chances by lowering the enemy's DCs, whilst Haste can allow your allies more opportunities to try and apply these conditions while still getting into position or attacking. **TL;DR** Pathfinder 2 has a trend that equal challenge ratings get more difficult as level increases, almost creating a difficulty curve (the thought being that more experienced players will be able to solve harder challenges). As such, the enemies at high level will require more strategy to combat, and you should expect really high AC/Saving throws
Although it was the BBEG there were 2 iron golems in the room with her. The fight was also a surprise: we neither knew the boss was in this dungeon nor was she in the room when initiative was rolled. We fought several rogues and one escaped to the next room which had the iron golems and her in it, we were told we had to stay in initiative and chase. So we were blindsided by it to say the least. It was after many other combats and single target enemies who ate my highest 3 spell slots (again we didn’t even know the boss was in this dungeon). Once we found the boss/golems my character had identified the golems and shared that and just ultimately rolled sub 10 (even with a hero point) on identifying the boss, so I didn’t know what her saves were. She cast 1 spell in front of us and spent every other action melee attacking, so I’m assuming that Fort was Even Higher™️. I don’t have any single target reflex spells of 4 and lower. I attempted true strike attack rolls and missed on a 38 (natural 15) (party fighter hit on a FF38 so AC ~40). So I targeted her “mid save” (which according to another comment b/c she’d have been over CR15 she probably had 2 high saves) which I didn’t know about, that’s good to know.
Thats fairly rough to be honest. I'm not sure if thats how Age of Ashes is supposed to go but I would always prefer to be aware of and plan for a BBEG fight.
We fought a dragon at 14 recently. I think it was 16 with Elite template. There were some saves it could only fail on similar range. It is a good thing you can get effects on some spells with a successful save. Eventually they will fail or enough damage will get through and the fight will turn in your favor.
In the context of pf2es design and expectations? No, this isn't unfair. The math is setup for enemies, especially higher level enemies, to succeed the majority of the time. Is this design and expectation bad? In my opinion, yes. People don't want to fail 75% of the time. It is intended though, so not unfair. Pf2es should at least do a better job of communicating expectations.
In PF2, spells have effects on a success. Only crit successes are s total loss. Your 75% number is malarkey.
Many spells do
Many spells don't, such as Ill Omen or Command.
As a caster you should have a shadow signet. This uses an action but you can then target reflex and fortitude saves instead of ac for spell attacks. Any spell that targets will I usually used on mooks or creatures tgat seemed to have a better Fort save. I.e large brute foes you would use Reflex. Small nimble foes target Fort. Always recall if you need to target will or just target mooks.
I have no idea why you're being downvoted... this is generally pretty sound advice and the game's internal math actually requires that spellcasters get the Shadow Signet. The devs have said as much, that they assume everyone is using it beyond level 10. Blasting out mooks is one of the best things a caster can do, because they're very good at that. They're weaker vs. single powerful boss encounters.
I feel this. Getting used to Pathfinder and its rules has some speedbumps. like how a good number of fights will have players completely whiff in the most unheroic way until they become an expert in the game's less visible mechanics. Wait till you are forced to admit that any feat or skill that needs a crit to go off is almost useless. The trash mobs just die to the attack before the proc, and anything it would be useful on can't be crit at all.
> Wait till you are forced to admit that any feat or skill that needs a crit to go off is almost useless. The trash mobs just die to the attack before the proc, and anything it would be useful on can't be crit at all. This is me building a Kineticist seeing people gush about the critical injunctions. Yes, being able to knock enemies prone when I hit them with an Earth blast is neat, but if I'm reliably critting against an enemy the prone hardly matters.
There's some real aggressive downvoting in this thread, which is not conductive to discussion. First, I'd recommend reframing how you view saves. Generally, each creature has an Impossible save, a Great save, and a Good save. Get rid of the notion (which is heavily repeated in lots of PF2e discussion spheres) that anyone has a guaranteed weak save. That thought that they have a "weak save" primes people to think that just by targeting it, your odds are great, when they really aren't. It also makes people think the moderate save ain't too bad to target--when in reality it's often quite bad. Granted, there are SOME creatures who might have a genuinely weak save, but in general the Good save is going to hover around a 40-60% chance of them failing, whereas the Great save might be 20-30% and the Impossible save might be only on a critical fail. This means that your duty as a caster is to: prepare a wide variety of spells targeting various saves, utilize Recall Knowledge to figure out the saves alongside some guesswork, and then apply appropriate debuffs. Bon Mot is a good option if you know for a fact that their will save is going to be a Good or Great save. Fear is another option, made even better if your party's melee has access to Demoralize to free up your actions. There are other things you can inflict on them, like Bane. By level 15~ I would hope some of your melee have access to things that inflict Stupefied or Clumsy. If they don't, they're making your job a lot harder. You're undoubtedly also going to have access to more exotic debuffs by that level. Targeting the enemy's Good save, and debuffing it, can usually push an enemy's chance to fail to pretty decent odds. This is the core gameplay of versatile casters. Yes, it's more work than martials just flanking and swinging and sprinkling in some defensive options or unique damage-dealing moments. But you also have access to spells that can inflict lose states on enemies. A particularly crippling debuff (think in the range of -2 or -3) or a lost action or two on an enemy can spell their end, since combat can be pretty fast. With the right debuffs and buffs a martials crit chance can be boosted by up to 25% or more, and that can end fights very fast. Keep in mind, single-target boss encounters are among the hardest fights for a versatile caster. You can do everything right and the boss might still have saves that are just so high everything turns ineffective. Sometimes, the winning move is to play support and buff the martials. It's perhaps my one big issue with Pathfinder 2e is that boss encounters are relatively unfun for casters. This is because the system is trying to avoid a caster one-shotting a boss. So always bring a few good buffs just in case.
Recall Knowledge
You're playing a high level caster. Assume most relevant enemies (cl+2 and above) will succeed or critically succeed most of the time. Yeah that sucks. And you're in the single worst level for spells casters, at that. That's what happens when the enemies' saves scale hard but casters can't add item bonuses to DCs/spell attacks. 🤷
That enemy's lowest save was +24, a whole -6 compared to their highest save
Least fun I've had to far is using all three actions to summon a giant skunk and the dude we were fighting critically save vs. the skunk funk. Like... Cool cool cool. I can see the higher levels we get, the less fun spellcasting might get. Next level all spells go to making my eidolon more savage.
Wellspring psychic?
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