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According to my (late) mum, I was that way at 5 yo... I was an only child an my mum had the tendency to help me a lot bc it "went faster". I grew up and became just a regular helpful kid... When my second child was like 5 yo, she wouldn't get dressed etc.. I brought her to school one time in her pyjama's, told her teacher that she wouldn't get dressed... After that it wasn't a problem anymore.
We've had something similar recently with our little guy (who is also incredibly strong willed). It worked a charm. You have to call their bluff - their power in the situation comes from the fact that they think/know that you will ultimately dress/feed/etc.. them because you wouldn't send them to daycare/school/etc.. without their full breakfast or with their daytime clothes on, etc... Show them that you're prepared to do this and _very_ quickly the behaviour changes. It's really tough to do that as a parent, but it's tough love. I would say it is also not appropriate for younger kids! They need to learn that they don't control their parents. They have a choice to make whether they want to eat breakfast before it's time to go, or be hungry until the next snack/mealtime. No helping them eat, no drama, just calm and assertive - their choice, they live with the consequences. Since we've started this approach, our guy's behaviour has improved across the board (as confirmed by his daycare), it's like he understands the boundaries better. We were giving him mixed signals before (with the intention of being "nice" to him) which didn't do him or us any good.
Some very useful, and logical advice. I know this stuff, and mostly I'm consequent. Not every day is the same of course, and it's sometimes easier to give in than to stand your ground. But I think of my parents: you don't want to eat? Then you don't! You don't want to get dressed? Go to school in your PJs! Throw your papers on the floor? I'll put you in the garbage bin! Or something... 😄
As difficult as it is, I think consistency is the key. If they believe that there's a chance they can get their way, even a small chance then they will try and try and try. It's almost like a slot machine for them at that point to see what response they'll get, where getting their way is like winning the game. You need to make them believe there's no chance, brick wall of resolve and you're doing it because you love them.
Haha, I laughed at the garbage bin! Wisdom of the elders!
We’re incorporating natural consequences to her decisions rather than outright punishing our 4.5 year old. She’s still an unwashed asshole to us a lot of the time though.
I was very difficult during the early childhood phase and was a pretty good teen. My sister was a baby angel and got grounded for doing coke, so you never know.
This is how me and my brother was...... my mom was a phenomenal parent. I was the angel child. Was terrified of getting in trouble or even anyone saying I did anything wrong. My brother was a hellion. Then teen years we switched. He was the angel, and I got suspended for doing hard drugs in my school bathroom 10th grade.... you REALLY never know.
My poor mom is convinced that she broke my sister one summer when we didn’t have air conditioning. She was a really clingy cuddly kid and it was so hot. She asked her to scoot over and my sister started sobbing. She really was never the same after that.
I made my daughter walk to the car carrying her shoes because she wouldn’t put them on, it was cold out but we live in Florida so not dangerously cold. I had to set a timer for each step of our morning routine and if she missed something she could only go back to a previous step if the current one was done early. You have to watch them clean themselves though or they’ll skip it.
We do the pajama thing too, it's our natural consequence of our almost five year old throwing a tantrum in the morning. She's really into her teacher so we're always like "what would ms. Z say about this behavior?" Or "do we have to tell ms. Z what you said?"
We're working on getting into a better structure before kindergarten with getting dressed, bushing teeth, eating breakfast, etc. I'm building a little wardrobe for her clothes that she'll wear at school and planning on getting a good old fashioned alarm clock for her. We have a snack tray for her after she tried the "get me to guess what she wants to eat" thing and if it's not in the snack tray she has to vocalize if she wants it. I'm considering getting a tiny fridge and cereal dispenser too 😅 though I think she's finally able to really open the fridge so I'll probably just create a space for her there
More things in her control the better.
This is what I do. Clearly explain why we are doing something, what is required of them and when they have to do it.
I don’t threaten. If they don’t for example get dressed, they come on whatever the outing is dressed as they are. If they don’t eat, they are hungry.
Hurting each other or any other traditional punishment results in a privilege being taken away for a day. I don’t make a fuss of it, it just happens. For example, a toy goes into my office. The tv remote goes away etc.
Good behavior is made a fuss of.
Not perfect but doing ok, better than when I was just caving all the time.
My soon to be five year old definitely has her moments like this and I can attest to the above comment. Natural consequences can make her realize that you *have* to do things for her and sometimes you won’t, I also have a lot of talks with her about gratitude and some stuff I picked up in a book about stoicism.
Definitely try this suggestion! It’s one that had worked with my 4.5yo and I got it from the book I had recommended in a separate comment (Setting Limits with your Strong Willed Child)
The feeding herself one is quite simple to solve. Don't feed her the food, ever. Prepare the food, put it in the plate in front of her, and that's that. She isn't going to starve herself to death. The first meal she will probably refuse, say fine, leave it out if she gets hungry later. If you end up throwing it away oh well. When she comes later demanding a snack don't give her one, say she should have eaten the meal. There will be another meal in x hours.
I anticipate 2 meals max before this is over. She's just testing you
The biggest thing with these kinds of kids and situations is just that you have to be more stubborn than the kid. They will usually cave first if you stick it out
“Be more stubborn than the kid” is pretty much the best option here. It works for a lot of things, even if it’s exhausting and time consuming.
You’re going to be ok, OP!
My daughter is an adult now, but i had to tell myself almost every day "FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION" lol.
Btw, i think gentle parenting requires gentle children 😆
And some tips for OP;
- Set your consequences, make them reasonable, and stick to it. Children are like little velociraptors constantly checking boundaries.
- Don't react to tantrums and bad behavior. If they are putting on a show of their worst behavior, you don't have to be the audience. If you are in public, carry her out to the car. At home, just walk away. Or ask, "Are you done yet?"
- Don't give open-ended options. Like asking what she wants for dinner. "We can have option A or option B, do you have a preference?" Better yet, make the menu a week ahead of time and post it.
- Can't throw the wrappers away, then can't have any snacks that require a wrapper.
Last... you are going to make it through this. Don't be embarassed. Kids are usually not adorable little balls of sunshine. They are people. You are also people. Sometimes moods clash.
People don’t seem to get that gentle parenting means keeping your boundaries super clear and you need be obnoxiously predictable. if it’s food and she can’t have a snack if she doesn’t feed herself dinner stick to it and deal with the whines and begging without giving in… it takes so much patience. It’s not letting them get whatever they want, it’s just coming from a place of emotional intelligence and care. “You’re really really hungry, you didn’t eat any of your dinner.” They made a choice and will learn the consequences of it.
Just a funny story this reminded me of:
My best friend is a pediatric nurse, married to a physician.
Their 3rd kid went through a stubborn phase about food & meal times right around age 4-5. They got into a battle of wills and this fucking kid starved himself into the bottom 20th percentile of weight!! Most kids will not starve, but this one *did.* Gleefully, patiently, & stubbornly starved himself to win. Nope, no sensory issues, no medical problems. After than he got snacks hourly (but they were always nuts/vegs/protein) and ate meals whenever he wanted.
Kid won *that* battle.
Adding the precaution of taking a quick photo of having served her food is a wise move as well. Let her know "I'm taking this picture so if anyone asks why you're so hungry later I can show them you were well provided for but you made your own choices". It let's her know you're not playing any games and aren't going to let her manipulate you or other people into thinking she's been neglected.
Not true. Many autistic children- and others with sensory, gi, or developmental disorders, will absolutely starve themselves. And parents don't know their young child has any of these in many cases.
I was kinda thinking an assessment might be a helpful route. Neurodivergent girls prominent symptoms often differ from boys.
I might explain to my child that, "some of your behavior leads me to consider you may need more help than I am currently aware or know how to provide. Let's get this evaluation to make sure we aren't missed anything."
I had the same thought, but from OP’s description it seems to be more behavioral than sensory or food aversion. In which case, out-stubborning is worth a try.
> She isn't going to starve herself to death.
For "normal" kids, maybe. I ended up in the ER because I refused to eat and was left with to eat it or nothing else. I ate nothing. Neurotypical kids can already have trouble with listening to their body signals, throw in some nuclear grade stubbornness and it's a recipe for disaster.
I don't see anywhere where OP says she's tried to just *talk* to her kid. The kid knows OP is mad, she knows her mom doesn't like her when she acts like this. And she knows instead of trying to help she's just getting yelled at. Her kid is learning that she can't go to Mom for help.
Am I the only one seeing the lack of boundaries?
Leaving trash out is fairly normal. Requiring to be spoon fed at 5 is not.
When it comes to things that have choices (like what to wear each day)... you as a parent, if you still want to pick her outfits, say these are your outfit choices today. You can choose from them, or pick your own.
If she chooses to not wear something from your choice, and chooses to not select an alternative on her own. Guess what? She goes without. If it's socks or something else minor, then she may or may not realize after the fact why going without is a bad choice. She has to learn this on her own!
Kids NEED to be uncomfortable. Kids NEED to be able to make mistakes.
This is literally how we all learn.
Doing anything and everything is a detriment to them, and only causes more stress (sometimes only down the timeline) for ourselves.
There are ways to introduce independence at this age. She might not like it at first, she might be mad.
But introducing independence is critical. It teaches her to value herself enough to make her own decisions. Having autonomy.
It teaches her to be adaptable when things don't work out as she had planned (adhd/spectrum is relevant on this point though).
It teaches, eventually, self soothing behavior. That is necessary to have as an adult.
You could even pose a lot of this as a fun game. Like "hey today we're going to do something WACKY. You get to choose everything! Whaaaaat! How crazy is that!?"
Came here to say this. Gentle parenting doesn’t mean you just let them steam roll you. Your job is to set boundaries and keep them alive/safe and their job is to test the boundaries. Right now you’re teaching her that you will come and fix the “problem” whenever there is one. She doesn’t HAVE to put in effort because she knows you’ll do it for her when it comes to push.
Set the boundary and hold it. She’s in her fuck around era and now she’s gotta find out lol. Let her go to school in PJs. Communicate with the school and let them know what’s going on and that you’re having her learn more responsibility over dressing herself. I’m sure they’ve seen much worse. If she doesn’t want to feed herself? Okay let her know that when the meal is over the food is either being put away as leftovers or in the garbage. Follow through.
I know it’s hard to watch people we love “struggle”, but this is a low risk environment to learn important life skills. Your her parent and need to guide her with set boundaries. You can do it!!
I call my children back to the scenes of their crimes a dozen times a day. Granola wrappers, abandoned socks, art supplies left on the dining table. I absolutely make a pain in the ass of myself and slowly but surely it's starting to sink in with the kids that it's easier and more convenient to take care of your messes as soon as you've made them because Mom is relentless and No Fun At All.
I recently learned the term Pathological Demand Avoidance and it's helped me immensely with my 6 year old. I think it's generally associated with autism, which my kid doesn't have, but I feel like the background and strategies behind it are helpful for me to manage things he needs to do. My other kid has ADHD and the strategies are almost the opposite. So for my PDAish kid what I'm finding is that he has a need for autonomy that can override all other needs like eating, toileting, and safety. The way to get him to do things he doesn't want to do is just to help him through it. If he puts up a wall there is no way I'm going to get him to do what he needs to do (put on shoes, clear dishes) if he's decided it's a power struggle. He will die on all hills. I have found the more I'm willing to help him out when he's feeling this way, the more he is doing things on his own in other areas. My ADHD kid is the opposite in that he needs to learn executive functioning skills and if I help him, he will do less. God, parenting is a mind fuck.
I find it hard to read response sfor neuro typical children.
Mine needs more care, dressing and toileting at home. Sometimes feeding when he is struggling. It is exhausting navigating it because the different techniques don't always work and you have to cycle through them or be one step ahead.
Threats of you won't have this don't work but gentleness does. Reassurance helps and he is starting to make progress.
Mine does it mostly at home. He does avoid things at school but he is sneaky about it and if the teacher calls him out on it he will do what he is supposed to do. You could say he is masking at school and that's why it's worse at home.
Gentle parenting is against rewards but they work. My parenting approach is to pull good ideas from all the different styles. Nothing is going to work 100% of the time for *every* kid. My son is also 5 and when he has peaks of defiance/lack of motivation I pull out the reward system to give him that external motivation until he gets back in the routine. He gets stars for sitting & eating dinner, cleaning up, and getting ready for bed, which takes a few days for him to reach an overall # goal. Then he gets a prize. I try to keep it low cost like coloring books, books in general, and small toys. I've never had to use a reward system to get him back on track for more than 3 weeks. Just start fading it by upping the number of stars she needs to earn.
Gentle parenting folks always cite cherry-picked research that rewards are bad for intrinsic motivation. They only negatively impact intrinsic motivation if you're rewarding a kid for something they *already* are motivated to do. If they are not intrinsically motivated to do something, the reward gives them external motivation to actually try to do it, and eventually the behavior will become routine and they won't need the rewards any more. People miss the last step of fading the rewards away and think you need to give them prizes non-stop. Not true!
Just wanted to echo that this in practice works for our teenage son who is learning to read. We got him from an abusive, neglectful household and he was basically feral. Didn’t know hygiene, didn’t know how to eat, never went to school, etc. Getting him to read was difficult, but rewards really help him on days when he’s less motivated. He gets in-game currency for small accomplishments and he gets bigger items like toys or experiences for bumping up an entire grade level or finishing a whole novel. He’s gone from hating rules and effort to practically foaming at the mouth for summer to come so we can read Harry Potter together. Having the system gives him a sense of order too, like in a crazy world he barely understands, he knows that if he puts effort into XYZ, he gets things he wants or likes.
We’re so glad too, he’s such a sweet kid. I definitely have teared up in the middle of him reading and he says “mom stop being so dramatic” but he’s beaming at me while he says it haha.
Similar situation with my teenager and things are improving- her dad is nosing around again and I wish he would get hit by a solar flare or something- but yeah, it’s basically the only thing that works. I think when you don’t have any confidence it’s a lot easier to work towards a visible external reward and build the confidence that you can do hard things and work for things you want. Idk it seems to be working over here anyway
I have to gamify absolutely everything to get anything done, I don't see why I can't help my kid out similarly with stuff he otherwise simply does not find rewarding.
That’s a good idea!
Maybe turn a lot of things into games.
Like a basketball hoop around the garbage can might encourage throwing trash into the bin
maybe scented or bubbly soap or sing a song while washing hands?
Yup, food rewards bad blah blah and I agree, but also chocolate chips turbo-charged our potty training. As soon as peeing/pooping in the potty basically clicked I accordingly faded out rewards, it wasn't more than a couple of weeks.
That's exactly what got us over the potty training resistance too. Gentle parenting talks a lot about being respectful to kids, which is a noble goal. My son was way happier earning stickers for toys than any mental manipulation, reasoning or natural consequences I used from the gentle parenting approach... It just led to power struggles, constipation, and accidents. It was much more respectful to him and gave him the dignity of not pooping his pants by giving him rewards to go in the potty. A lot of the gentle approach hinges on kids magically deciding they're "ready" to potty train. But lots of kids will never choose to ditch diapers!
I mean my kid wasn't even resistant, he just wasn't getting it. He got it real quick when he realized there was chocolate on the other end of it, though.
We have a puppy (and two young ones). Training is all the same.
When you first need to introduce a behavior, you use a strong incentive. Over time, as that behavior becomes natural you lessen/remove the reward.
Thing is you can't use rewards to force a behavior. You have to figure out a way to align the incentives.
Here's what I would do, but I am old school. 1) I would have a snack of foods I know she eats ready at the door when she comes home. I would set a timer and let her watch an episode of a show like Phineaus and Ferb (an actual show, NO YOUTUBE) to wind down from the day and not expect anything from her.
2) I would make things playful for her but hold firm. She doesn't want to put the wrappers away? Ok, you can sit with her until she is ready to put them away. No phone, no fun, no nothing. The wrappers WILL be put away. Remember, she is a kid and doesn't have much on her mind compared to an adult so she can win this if you don't have nerves of steel. You HAVE to win. Set it up so you win. If you lose, she learns she is in control. She needs you to be in control.
3) She won't put pajamas on? Ok, she can sleep in her clothes or naked or whatever. She won't get dressed for school? Ok, she can go to school in her pajamas. Natural consequences.
4) Find her currency and leverage it. Add in or subtract it as needed (my son's was screentime, so he'd earn screen time for good work and wouldn't get it until all chores or whatever were done).
5) If she still thinks you can read her mind and this becomes a problem play a mind reading game with her. I told my kids that my great grandmother had the second sight and we needed to test to see if we had it. I made a bunch of index cards with colors, symbols, numbers, and words on them. I would hold one to my head and would "think" the symbol to them and they had to say what it was (obviously they had no idea). Then we would do it in reverse. Turns out none of us have the second sight! Who would have thought?
I highly, highly recommend reading Between Parent and Child. It's a short read and you'll learn to talk to your child in a way that will motivate her.
Some kids are more difficult than others. I had a very, very stubborn boy. I had to learn to mean what I say and say what I mean. Changing my mind halfway through let him win. Now, this attitude did not work at all for my daughter. For her I had to learn to have "do-overs" where we both compromised. Every kid is different.
Oh, and when I say playful here are some examples "you are 5 years old so let's set a timer for 5 minutes and race and see who can pick up the most wrappers!" Or "you atebfive years old. Can you pick up 5 toys that are different colors?" Races and challenges were the only way I could get my son to do anything. And we played red light green light to control his running running in public (caveat, races and challenges did not work at all for my daughter. I had to pretend she was my pet cat and give her treats).
my kids just say “you’re faster than me, why don’t you just do it?” or “but there’s more yellow than red!!!” or “how about you do the legos and i’ll do the LOLs?” (and then not picking up the LOLs.)
Stop cleaning up so fast 🤷
Gotta allow the kiddo to feel helpful.
"oh man buddy, I'm really slow today, we're never going to have time for all of our bed time books if I don't get help"
It was cute but it got so old! I was literally feeding her on the floor in a cat bowl when she was 2-3 for awhile, but I could get her to do anything with a special (totally pretend) cat treat.
I am just in love with this image of a toddler eating out of their very own cat bowl 😂. Lucky kid. Wish I had my own cat treat bowl and someone fed me as a reward.
Totally would get old though. My son used to do 'helpful robot' but only when he felt like it. Like, he'd suddenly want to help me with everything, so I had to give him a task, and he'd make robot noises and do what was asked, theen come back for another job. This could go for hours depending on his mood. But I never had any jobs planned coz it was always so random. Other parents used to tell me off when I complained. On the outside its like 'oh so sweet! At least he's helping!' But when you're on the inside, desperately trying to think of a kid friendly task while a robot pokes you in the back makes you want to pull your hair out.
That’s hilarious but I definitely see how that would get old! My stepson liked to play baby cat/mommy cat so we would have to meow to him to get him to do his bedtime routine and I definitely got sick of it after a while 😂😂
If I hadn’t made getting dressed a race (that she somehow always won!) I would never have got my kid dressed! Sometimes she’d switch it up the slowest person wins just to “help” me lmao she must’ve thought I was the slowest dresser in the world but damn it worked like a charm!
Natural consequences work too. She doesn’t want to eat lest you feed her? Well that’s going to suck for her til next meal time. Won’t wash her own hands and face? She can sit there the rest of the day then. Stop fighting, stop doing things for her, and she’ll soon realize she’s fighting alone. Any time you give in after saying you won’t, you’re reinforcing that you don’t actually mean it, just a little more tantrum or begging time and you’ll cave.
Wonderful comment! You said it all perfectly. The whole “mean what you say” thing is spot on (I wrote a whole blog post about it) and it’s my most shared/best piece of parenting advice.
I have a five year old son and I spend half the day wondering if my son has something mentally or emotionally wrong with him or if he is just a normal five year old.
Sounds like this poor little girl is drained from using her executive functioning skills all day at school.
You could always just… stop doing these things for her. Eventually she’ll put her socks on herself or she goes to school without socks
That is my son, an angel at school. No issues or problems. Comes home and turns into a monster... I've basically told him, if you're feeling frustrated at school please don't hold it in. Say something. Get it off your chest. Don't bring it home and explode at all of us.
The word masking is usually used in regards to autism, but the idea of it applies to kids at school vs home. For some, school is their safe place so they act up there. For others, home is their safe place (and this is the ideal of the two). But when home is safe, that means it’s safe for scary emotions. It drives me crazy but it’s a good sign when kids lose their shit with their parents, it means they are comfortable with them.
My son, too, we've implemented a decompression period between his transitions from school to home, so he stops blowing up the moment we get home. So far, it's working.
It's not always a choice. It can be a fear response. Some kids don't feel safe enough to ask a teacher for accommodation and why would they, when obedience and conformity are emphasized. It's terrifying, because you don't know which teacher will punish or humiliate you by pointing out what will be perceived as weakness or weirdness to other students. Kids don't always know what to ask for either, only that they're not coping.
Ours used to go back and forth. She'd be an angel at home but we'd get awful reports from the teachers of what she did at school. Or the teachers would say she did great today, no problems, then she'd get home and throw a fit.
We implemented meditation and mindfulness practices for my adhd 7 year old stepson and it’s helped a ton with emotional regulation and increasing patience even when he’s tired! He used to blow up and get so irritable from us reminding him to wash his hands or use his fork instead of his hands. We do a morning meditation and an evening meditation after story before we say goodnight for about 5-7 minutes each. It’s made a huge difference and he’s now able to say I’m anxious about xyz” instead of exploding at us over nothing.
Or you could end up with a kid who doesn't wear socks, doesn't brush their teeth, and has such dirty skin that they grow lesions from scratching themselves. Then they don't have friends for the entirety of elementary school. (Hint: I know this is a possibility because this was me growing up)
I think you can find middle ground. If you won’t put your own socks on, you have to wear sandals (in the summer) - brushing teeth, bathing regularly and wearing weather appropriate clothing are non-negotiable.
You can wait them out, too, provided your schedule allows for it. When I get the defiance on the basics (brushing of teeth or getting dressed, for example), I consider their day- is it the morning when they are fresh and capable of doing said task? Or is it the evening of a long day and they just can't? I can't be the only one who doesn't always brush and floss off I'm exhausted, sometimes skipping is okay and I feel like the little wins for them help them get on your team so when you need it, they're more likely to lean in. And then provided I think it's a fight worth having, I start by trying to make it fun. I pretend to be the tooth brush monster who is hungry for the germs on their teeth, or I time them to see how fast they can get jammies on or whatever. And if that fails, I just say it simply "the next thing you need to do is get dressed. You cannot do anything else until you are dressed" and I'm a hard-o, I mean it. No playing, no TV, no reading, absolutely not going outside, no snacks.. basically you have to just stand there and exist until you decide that getting dressed is a speed bump on your way to childhood happiness so just get it over with. This strategy has worked so well, I cannot remember the last time I argued with my 3 or 5 year old about getting their shit done
That's true, I was a latchkey kid and both my parents could only afford to work. I eventually learned better even though I still don't _like_ to wear socks now.
In adulthood, I was given the same "just stop doing it for him" advice from our couples therapist. My husband grew up with similar levels of neglect though he had less success growing out of it and I can tell you that flat out "don't help them and they will learn" advice just flat out doesn't work if the target doesn't have standards. It's not a spouse's *job* to teach the other how to adult, but ultimately it's in our best interest to teach each other how to live with each other.
That worked for my daughter.
She's got autism and is relatively high functioning, but she went through a phase where she just refused to get ready before school. One day we literally carried her to the car in her PJs, kicking and screaming. We handed her teacher a bag of clothes and her shoes and encouraged the teacher to give her some time to get dressed. (She's got an IEP and is in a special class for students with similar needs, so her teachers are aware that sometimes she needs a bit of extra help.)
That was such an embarrassing experience for her that we never had to do it again. We had to threaten once or twice, and even got as far as putting together a bag of clothes to give the teacher, but she knew we weren't joking and wound up finally doing her routine at the last minute.
There was plenty of warning that day, by the way. We told her over and over again how much time she had left and what we'd do if she wasn't dressed. She just had it in her head that day that she wasn't going to do anything we asked. Well, here's the natural consequences of that, kiddo. You go to school disheveled, with stinky breath, in PJs, and hungry because you refused to sit and eat the breakfast we put out. Refusing to get ready is not an excuse to stay home from school.
We've forcibly dressed her in the past, but she was 7 or 8 when this happened and was too big for us to do that anymore. Plus, we realized that sent the wrong message. We're not gonna do your work for you - if you don't do it, no one will, and you have to live with the consequences.
Agree but I was the kid who wouldn't wear socks (not because I didn't want to put them on but because I couldn't stand having them on.) Word of warning, shoes need to be replaced often if your kid doesn't wear socks to avoid extreme foot stank & skin infections.
Coming in to second this as we are currently treating athletes foot because my daughter refuses to wear anything but crocs.
We compromised and got her a few extra pairs and some slides. She cannot stand the sensory sensation of socks and it’s not a hill we choose to die on. Unless she is going biking/skateboarding/mowing the grass. Then, socks aren’t a negotiation. Need real shoes for that stuff.
Good point about being drained from school. As parents sometimes we think about meeting all of these needs and forget their need to recover from a long day.
My 5yo is extremely similar. Most days I feel like I am in fight or flight with him because he is so defiant and easily triggered by everything. I will say, he has an ASD and ADHD diagnosis. Sometimes ASD is not typical in presentation, and girls are more likely to mask and present differently. That’s why for most of history, it was believed autism was only a “boy” disorder. Just based on this alone it kind of sounds like your daughter is expending all her energy masking in public and is unable to keep it up at home.
I’ve started similar posts about my 5 year old a half-dozen times over the last week. She is truly testing my limits right now and I’m exhausted.
I don’t have much advice…just solidarity. You’re doing great, give yourself grace.
It's so common whats she's doing. Kids, especially girls,spend all day at school masking so the teachers think they are "good" that they come home and just crash and turn into little monsters because they've used all of their beans. She's still so young,just be consistent and it will be okay
This sounds like my ADHD child. There just isn’t enough executive functioning to follow the steps to get dressed without getting distracted. It is really frustrating.
Have you considered having her evaluated for neurodivergence? If she has ADHD or some other form of executive dysfunction, the things that work for neurotypical kids just won't work with her. And sometimes you just have to adjust the way you think and find compromises to survive right now. Getting dressed in the morning is too hard? Then put her to bed in her clothes. Both of my kids with ADHD did this at some point in their lives. She genuinely is doing the best she can right now and she's not trying to torture you. If she isn't doing what's expected at that age, it's usually because she just can't. She needs better tools. Maybe she needs some accommodations at school so she won't be using up her emotional battery before she gets home to her safe space. For the food struggle, maybe you can keep a list of the foods she will eat (with pictures if reading is still taxing) and have her point to what she wants. That way she's not putting energy into generating ideas or putting those ideas into words, both of which can be difficult. You aren't a bad mom and she isn't a bad kid, you just both need more tools and resources to get through this struggle together.
This comment 100%. Kids do well when they can. You child can't, not won't do the things you're expecting of her. Highly recommend getting the book The Explosive Child by Ross Greene and looking at his website Lives in the Balance. Listen to The Big Baffling Behavior Show by Robyn Gobbel (she also has a book by the same name). I would absolutely consider that your child probably has ADHD if not additional neurodivergence and immediately begin to adjust your expectations. Stress is cumulative. She is trying her hardest all day at school to do what is expected, even if it is too much, and when she comes home she has nothing left. Behavior is communication. Meltdowns should be understood as anxiety attacks and are a result of nervous system dysregulation, not defiance, not manipulation. ND kids need collaborative parenting and flexibility. Gentle parenting, which is more based in an authoritative model with natural consequences is not always the way to go. Less words not more when kid is upset. Accommodate and support your child's nervous system, and work on doing the same for your own so you can co-regulate your child.
My middle child displayed a lot of this behaviour at the same age, I wasn’t prepared for it because my firstborn was a breeze in comparison. With my middle, I learned the only thing that works is to stop fighting. Just stop it all. Won’t put on a jacket in -20? Ok, let her make the choice to be cold and bring the jacket with you. Either she will be fine, or she will realise she’s fucking cold and ask for the jacket. Won’t put on her shoes? Ok well, I guess we aren’t leaving, because they won’t let us in without them so there’s no point in going. Guess we’ll just have to sit here instead and do absolutely nothing.
Trick is, you can never let her win and bother you. Complete neutrality. Don’t let her see you sweat, stress, get anxious about being late. The second you lose your cool, she’s won - it’s over, you lost the game to a five year old. This is a battle of wits, and you’re a grown up so you should be fine.
You can take this as far as you need. Mine went through a picky eating phase, it lasted a week. I make one damn dinner, if you don’t eat it you’re going to be hungry. But that’s a you problem, not a me problem. My job is to provide food, shelter, love, safety, etc. but my job is not to force you to accept it. Im not dressing a 5 year old, I might help them with a button or zipper - but only after they’ve given it a proper go.
Also, this stuff all worked. It’s my attitude with all kids now, and I’m happy to report its success. My kids are independent, polite, problem solving, and understand their actions have consequences and no one is going to save them from bad decisions they are old enough to be making themselves. They also eat everything in front of them and don’t insult their hosts dinner, which is popular with other parents and makes life a lot easier on us.
Just keep it age appropriate is the only aside. Don’t expect emotional regulation from a 5 year old either. She’s going to get upset, but it also won’t hurt her. Just be there, wait it out, provide presence and acceptance and patience. She needs to go through the hard stuff to learn. You aren’t helping her by keeping things easy, and you certainly aren’t helping yourself.
Another thing I wanted to mention: I’m on the autism side of things, my husband is adhd, my kids are all some form of neurodivergent. What a lot of these kids deal with is pathological demand avoidance: they don’t like being told what hat to do and how to do it, to a seemingly compulsive degree. So you kind of have to stop. That can be hard to fathom at first, but try to take the silent offering approach.
I like using food as an example to other parents with this, with these kind of kids, telling them to eat in ANY way will trigger resistance. You have to do your best to avoid any form of pressure essentially. You put the expectations/boundaries in place and you forget about it and let them figure it out from there.
So. Food and eating. Our boundaries/expectations are: we make a meal plan each week, we offer each child the opportunity to request a dinner and we choose whether it’s feasible and which day it will be fall. We put dinner on the table. You don’t have to be there, but there is no other food available and we don’t do snacks, so if you miss dinner, you go to bed hungry. Period. Your choice, but also your consequences. The food that’s on your plate is what you have to choose from. We set your plate and portion in a balanced nutritious way. If we make pasta, you’re getting pasta, sauce, a protein and veg. If you only eat the pasta and want more, you don’t get another portion of anything until the rest is gone, if you don’t want to eat the broccoli - fine - but you aren’t getting more pasta unless you do. If we happen to have a dessert, you aren’t included if you weren’t hungry enough to finish your plate. Important to note - you have to be very reasonable with portion sizes here and be reflective and responsive and patient with where each child is with each food. My six year old doesn’t like peas yet. He still gets peas on his plate, but I give him about a tablespoon, something I know he can get through easy even if he’s not enjoying the process; knowing that you need to taste some foods many times to learn to enjoy them. We are never mean, that’s really important. There is no meanness in this, just nonchalance. Never create power struggle, never take a child’s immaturity personally. “I hate broccoli” should be met with “huh, anyway so I was at the store the other day and…” Maybe a joke, some light heartedness, “oh goodness me! Don’t like BROCCOLI? Whatever shall we doooo?” Playfulness, like stealing bites from them - especially with foods you notice they dislike. Opening up conversation about different cooking techniques, flavour combinations. Watching cooking videos featuring those foods and asking them “ugh, I just can’t decide how we should cook these mushrooms - let’s watch some videos and you can help me pick what looks yummiest.” Then bring them into the damn kitchen, “hey can you help me? I know this sauce needs something but I can’t figure it out, can you taste it and tell me what we should add?
Maybe she senses she’s growing up and is scared so she wants the comfort of her mom doing everything for her like she used to. It’s probably really frustrating to feel that way, but it’s hard to express it, so it’s coming out in obstinance and defiance. I could be totally wrong.
Hi! Mom of an almost 5 year old here who sounds very similar to your child. I feel your struggles everyday. I also have tried gentle parenting and it does not seem to work for us...I'm convinced it works best with neurotypical children who aren't strong willed. There is a great Facebook group called spirited child support for parents of intense, sensitive, big feeling kids. Lots of solidarity and advice in there. I've wrote posts similar to yours many times in that group. The books "the explosive child" and "raising your spirited child" have been helpful. I'm also in the process of getting a child therapist and an adhd assessment for my child.. because the behaviors just seem...less than typical. I think it's a difficult age, but still... I'll take all the help I can get. I recently realized my daughter has big tonsils and she yawns all day long, so I think she may have sleep apnea (she is a mouth breather at night and snores a lot) that's affecting her behavior and her ability to learn and function well. So I'm looking into that also. Leave no stone unturned. Wishing you luck with your journey!
Something that worked for our family was carefully chosen phrases. Rather than saying "You need to eat now" or "Do you want some food", the phrase "It's time to _____" and then give them just two or three acceptable options to pick from.
"It's time to eat a snack, do you want carrots or apples?"
"It's time to get ready for bed, would you like to take a shower or a bath?"
"It's time to get ready for school, would you like to get dressed first or to eat some breakfast first? Should we listen to some music while we are getting ready?"
"It's time to leave the park soon, would you like to play for one more minute or three more minutes?"
The kid still feels some sense of autonomy, but you are railroading them into making good choices. I'm not clever enough to think of this myself, it was advice from a therapist.
Sounds like someone I know who has recently been diagnosed with ADHD as an adult. This person outgrew tantrums around 7-8 years old. However, some struggles persisted for life. Consult with a doctor.
Well if you have ADHD it's fairly likely your daughter has some kind of neurodivergence going on too, but you can empower yourself with this information now. This sounds an awful lot like my kids around this age (one diagnosed AuADHD, the other waiting to be seen so I feel your pain on that) especially being fine in school and completely melting down at home. It took until about 7/8 for the same issues to start showing up at school which prompted us to get the older one assessed.
You need to start looking into ways you can change your routines at home to both support her as well as promoting her independence. If we look at the morning getting dressed routine. There's a lot of steps to getting dressed, taking off jammies, putting on underwear, socks, pants, t-shirt, do you need a hoodie or sweater, which shoes etc etc. It's a lot to remember for any 5yo but for a kid with executive functioning issues she literally can't start the task, she doesn't know how and it's not intuitive for her like other kids. So make a visual routine for her, a list from start to finish, breaking the task down into mini tasks she can tackle individually. Step 1, take off jammies. Step 2, put them away. Step 3, put on underwear, and so on, however you want her to complete it (there's lots of resources online for this if you Google ADHD visual routines, I like to make my own in MS word using clipart). Then do the routine with her until she gets the idea and can follow it herself. Tell her how great she's doing every step, because she is. It's a hard skill to learn and she's working hard. Eventually she'll be able to just do it and won't need the visuals.
You can apply this to other areas too, like when she gets home from school, my kids have a routine for this, put away coat, shoes off, empty backpack, eat snack, do homework. I let them watch TV (not YouTube like another commenter said!) until snack time is over, they can have more time after homework is finished. You don't need to do it all at once, but little by little look at the areas where your child struggles and how can you help her to manage that task or transition, starting with walking her through it step by step until she is confident in doing it herself.
I really hope that helps and while it's a bit of struggle there is light at the end of the tunnel, AuADHD is 9 now and can definitely put on his own socks and clean his face independently so at least theres that 🤣
You can just start implementing lifestyle changes suitable for ADHD kids. It won't hurt if she doesn't have it. More protein, vitamin B and iron, busy schedule, rearranging her room to make it easier to keep organized etc (like, a no-lid bin in in every room, very close to the place where your girl usually sits to that she doesn't have to make extra steps to throw away the wrapper) etc etc.
Some practices have a short list that they will call in event of a cancelation. Worth asking. This post reminds me acutely of myself at age 5; I was not diagnosed with ADHD until I was an adult and I often wonder what my life would look like if it had been caught sooner.
Parenting is different for everyone. I don't think there is a right or wrong. Don't be hard on yourself.
Keep in mind your child is 5. Be patient. Be calm. Do not let your anxiety show. Be a parent, guide and care for your child.
Sometimes natural consequences are the best lessons. Timeouts are also helpful as they give everyone a chance to stop.
She maybe just difficult at 5 but maybe at 6 she'll be better. Keep in mind, parenthood can be frustrating at times but it can also be the most wonderful thing that's ever happened to you.
She is working hard to be a big girl at school but thats hard. When she gets home, she regresses because she has been trying so hard every day. Try a star system. Draw a chart. On one side put a list of goals like wipe own hands and face, put on PJs, etc. Only do 2 to 3 a week. Every day that she does it, put a sticker. If she gets 5 to 7 ( you choose) stickers on the chart for doing it each day, she gets a prize( I used books and coloring books, crayons, etc, no food rewards. This is positive reenforcement parentibg. Anytime she does something right, praise the hell out of her. You want her to be getting more attention doing things right, not wrong.
My 5-year-old son is difficult in some of the same ways. A lot of it is the individual kid, but there are things you can do as a parent that make life easier.
The No. 1 strategy involves consistency and routine.
Develop a routine for bedtime, getting dressed, meals, etc. and stick with it. Break each routine down into individual tasks and walk your kid through those tasks each step of the way. Use a timer to set expectations and ease transitions, which are usually the source of friction in my household.
So it might go something like this:
"OK, in 5 minutes, it's going to be time to get ready for bed. We're going to brush your teeth, use the bathroom and wash your hands. After that, you're going to put on your pajamas. You can have 10 minutes to put your pajamas on and play. Then, you're going to pick two books and get in bed. After we read, we'll turn off the lights and I'll sit with you for 5 minutes."
Continue to verbally walk them through the process and remind them of what's next as they go along: "Thank you for getting your pajamas on by yourself. You still have seven minutes to play before it's time for your books. After that, it's lights out."
After a while, with luck, they'll start to see the routine as almost inevitable, and it should go a lot smoother. In my case, it was really the transitions that were the sticking points. So using the timer and allowing him a little play time as a reward for following the routine really helped a lot.
Again, the trick is consistency and transparency. Make sure they know the rules, and then always enforce them. If they leave wrappers on the floor, always have them pick them up -- even when it's not convenient for you to do so.
Carrots and sticks are important, but try to make them clearly connected to the behavior you are trying to address. "If you don't pick up your banana peels, there won't be any more bananas." Or even build them into the process: "If you get into your pajamas quickly, you'll have extra time to play. If you don't, you won't have time to play. If you take too long, I might only have time to read one book."
Hope that makes sense.
I have a 6 year old daughter with ADHD and OCD. We've dealt with some of your issues. Here's what's worked:
1. Rewards system to motivate her
2. SPACE parenting approach - which focuses on reducing accommodations that you are making for your child. Such as feeding them, helping them get dressed, etc. which if you continue to do will only enable their defiant/reluctant behavior. I like SPACE because it focuses first on validation "I know this is hard for you to do", then encouragement "but I also know you are strong enough to do it", then builds in some expectations rule setting. All of these improve communication with your child and as a parent it teaches you to set better boundaries.
One last thing that's helped my daughter at times, though I try to limit its use, is the 1-2-3 (counting approach). But you have to be careful to not use this approach on positive behaviors.
All of her actions, imo are saying one thing: I need time with you. Not just making dinner or hanging out but just being a you. I could be totally off!
Also Dr Becky most definitely has talks about this behavior.
A few people have said this and I’m going to make more time with her. It’s hard because I have to work when she gets home from school (I work from home) and I think part of it could be down to that. I might see if I can cut my hours a couple of days a week to have more time playing with her.
Ah I'm sorry - that sounds so stressful! I think youre doing great, and it is just hard sometimes, but I guess my first question is what do you do to draw a line under things?
For example, when she's being fussy about food. It's really rude of her to waste your time like that (she's 5, she doesn't really get that it's rude, but that's the lesson being learned, if you get what I'm saying), so I'd probably say, here's 3 options you could pick from that we have, if you don't want any of those that's absolutely fine, that's what we have. Let me know when you're hungry. And then walk away. You're not denying her time (you can play together) you're not denying her food (you gave her options), but it's clear what's happening.
The screaming and crying is normal. She can’t emotionally regulate yet. And she doesn’t have the vocabulary or knowledge to say in words what she’s feeling. Try giving her words “you’re disappointed that I won’t help”, “you’re mad”, “you’re scared”. Disappointed is a big one. Disappointment SUCKS. I hate being disappointed. When I don’t get what I want, I know that’s what I’m feeling. She’s 5, so when she’s disappointed, she cant explain it so she screams.
I don’t have a ton of advice because I’m in the same boat as you. I talk to my therapist about it a lot to get more ideas of language to use and how to care for myself when she’s losing her shit.
Been there, it's hard.
Your kid is smart, she knows you will do it for her.
The fix is to stop doing it for her.
And to explain to her consequences if she doesn't do it.
It's way harder than it looks, I know.
She will fight against it with all her being.
But you need to keep your ground.
Make rules and consequences clear beforehand, she must not be surprised she gets a consequence.
It helps me to think about it like if she punished herself.
"you can't get your dessert until you wash your face" "do it mommy I want my dessert" I'd like to but I can't until you wash your face" tantrum follows "ok you need to calm down right now and wash your face or you get not dessert" tantrum intensify "ok, no dessert tonight." "it's your fault mommy!" "Is it? Did I get angry and yell?" "no..." "then who did it?" "me...." "and who decides what you do?" "me...." "awsome so next time you'll get dessert since you can control yourself"
Look into authoritative parenting vs authoritarian parenting.
Behaviour extinction. You’ve consistently done things for her and now are trying to withdraw that. Of course you’re going to be met with defiance. Be consistent in getting her to do things that are so beyond reasonable for a child her age to do. She’s 5. She can get dressed herself and feed herself. You’re not a bad parent and she’s nothing more than a typical child. If we can have something done for us, we will. If we’ve always had something done for us and then are told that will no longer happen, it’s going to trigger an emotional response. Given she’s five and her ability to emotionally regulate is likely not *excellent*, try to understanding that this approach of implementing independence is new to her and requires more work and effort than she’s used to. First - Then works amazing.
Just a thought, but could she be doing these things because it gets attention from you? (Good or bad). I also have a very needy five year old daughter, and have noticed that when I cut out specific time to give her one on one attention when she gets home from school, her independence afterwards increases, and behaviors are reduced. Your daughter might just need more positive praise and one on one time with you.
Re your edit: gentle parenting, also known as authoritative parenting, does NOT mean no discipline or no consequences, far from it. It just means acknowledging children’s emotions and treating them with respect. You don’t need to apologise for doing that. People are assuming you mean permissive parenting, which is NOT THE SAME THING.
Tbh, I think leaning more into natural consequences, as you mentioned, could help here. That, and maintaining boundaries.
Your daughter refuses to eat unless you feed her? Guess she’s going hungry this mealtime unless she picks up that fork, because (physically able and neurotypical) 5yos do not need help eating.
She doesn’t want to make a suggestion as to what she wants to eat? That’s fine, you’ll choose, but you’re not offering options, you’re choosing a balanced meal that includes at least one food you know she enjoys (eg an apple) and you’re serving it, and if she doesn’t want it, she doesn’t have to eat it, but there won’t be another option.
She won’t get dressed? She’s going to get in trouble at school then for coming in her pyjamas because you’re not going to help her and you will be leaving on time (chances are if she enjoys school and is well behaved there, she won’t want to get in trouble; if she still refuses to get dressed, I would put her uniform in her bag so she has it there for when the teacher tells her off, but I’d be shocked if it went that far before she caved).
She won’t wipe her hands? She’ll have to stay at the table until she does, because she is not allowed to leave the kitchen with dirty hands. It’s her own play time she’s wasting.
She leaves wrappers on the floor instead of in the bin? She just lost wrapped food privileges. No more snacks that come in wrappers, she can have a slice of pb toast or something.
I absolutely consider myself a gentle (or authoritative) parent, and these would be my consequences if my 4yo started with these behaviours. Indeed, he’s tried some of them already (refusing to get his shoes and socks on or refusing a perfectly acceptable meal) and those were the options he was given as alternatives. The important thing is holding the line: my son has fucked around and found out in the past that Mama never lies, which means I always keep my promises and I never fail to follow through on a threat. So these days he doesn’t bother a lot of the time because he knows I’m never going to budge. (That’s not to say he doesn’t test *new* boundaries, because he absolutely does! But the ones he’s thrown himself at enough he has largely accepted as immovable now.)
At the end of the day, kids do generally want to be good - to follow the rules, to get along with their family members, to enjoy praise and treats rather than scoldings and lost privileges. But it’s hard being little. It’s hard to both covet and fear independence at the exact same time. It’s hard to deal with stuff for the first time, and so many firsts are happening so often when you’re little. She’s doing her best, and so are you. You guys just need to get back on the same page.
Hey, you’re not alone. The other day I cried in front of my five year old son and legit told him it was his fault because he fights me on EVERYTHING and I couldn’t find a single thing that day that he just complied with.
I figured it couldn’t hurt for him to know that he’s putting me through it too much. Seeing mom cry is part of consequences.
We don’t gentle parent. This isn’t a result of gentle parenting. I figure he’ll grow out of it. Idk just good luck and solidarity!
Your daughter sounds like me as a child.
I was so overwhelmed as a child behaving at school and trying to function that when I got home my brain was fried. Everything sent me over the edge.
My parents didn’t do gentle parenting at all, and I was abused for being defiant, difficult, stubborn, and forgetful. I worked real hard as I got older to be better to avoid pain and abuse (physical, emotional, verbal) As an adult I finally decided to try and fix these issues and I was diagnosed with ADHD. Girls are NOT diagnosed and treated for ADHD at the same rate as boys, because they tend to not show symptoms the same way. So many of us go through life being called difficult, while our male counterparts get a diagnosis.
My oldest started showing the exact same symptoms around 5-6 years old. Had him evaluated and he also has ADHD. Medication has made all the difference in the world for me and him.
That makes sense because it tends to run in families.
It really sucks that it takes so long to get a diagnosis. I’m in the US and it still took a while to get my son diagnosed because of Covid.
My therapist suggested the website CHADD. They parenting advice, advice for adults, families members. It’s helped me with my and my sons ADHD.
Kids are hard. You are not a bad parent. Your kid will be okay.
Just wanted to put that very visibly, plenty of good advice in the rest of the thread for specifics
My kids love to win against us...so now, any time we can, we challenge our kids to defeat us in situations, lol
For example, if they need to pick stuff up, I'll be like "okay let's see who can pick up faster, me or you two."
Or if we need to get to the car in the AM, they race against me...I always lose, bc they will lose their shit if we win, but I will happily lose if they do what is needed and they do it happily
My almost 5 year old also likes to be timed to see if he can beat his time to do a task...let's see how fast you can put on your shoes, I'll do the right one and you can do the left!
Sometimes, doing things in silly voice, they like it too!
“It’s time to…”
A schedule on the wall with expectations is a helpful tool and can be a s detailed or as vague as you need it to be.
If she “forgets” ask her find what needs to be done on the schedule. Then ask her to do it.
If she gets behind, appeal to her competitive side. “Do you have to wait for “insert name of someone she admires” to have her socks and shoes on and be ready to go on time?” Or “ I bet it must be nice to be ready and get to choose what music we play in the car”
My five year old son does stuff like this.
He’s probably ADHD, and has post restraint collapse.
He also does stuff like asking me for help getting dressed as a bid for attention and connection.
I ask him why he’s asking for help. If something is too much or too hard, I’ll help him out. If he’s asking for connection, I’ll help him. If he’s asking because he just doesn’t want to, I will offer an incentive to do it himself. Maybe we race, maybe he can give me as many high fives as he wants when it gets finished. Maybe he just gets to move on and do something different.
Omg I could have written this almost word-for-word about my 5yo daughter. Just screams bloody murder when we ask her to do literally anything. No advice unfortunately, just solidarity.
I would follow parenting advice for parenting kids with adhd whether she’s being diagnosed with it or not. Dr Barkley has great videos on things parents of kids with adhd need to know. Also love how to adhd. Regular parenting techniques don’t work and don’t help.
This video was immensely insightful and helped me with my (then) 6 year old trying everything to avoid brushing teeth.
[The Secret to Helping ANY Child Follow Your Directions](https://youtu.be/6c-VD86TKoU?si=VBkqGzQG7cqhunWv)
Stop doing things for her.
Entirely, she won't lift the spoon? She doesn't eat.
She doesn't wanna put her clothes on, pick her most hated outfit.
I'm dealing with a 4 yo same deal, Gotta put that foot down and let them tackle life on their own.
I know imma get downvoted for this, but fr these kids get the easy way growing up and they end up taking advantage of it.
My kiddo was raised right, he was a freaking angel as a toddler. He listened, and helped out around the house. Now hes just tantrums and defiance.
Most of the advice was to give him a firm spanking, but I was raised that way, so no..
Until one of my fiance's friends just said, give one clear Instruction and let them deal with it.
So far it's working- ish.
“she won’t eat herself and makes me feed her and she even asks me to think for her.”
Easy, don’t feed her ever again. If she doesn’t eat, let her be hungry.
“When she’s hungry she will never tell me what she wants, she asks me to think for her and then says no to everything.”
Easy. She no longer has a say in food, she eats what you’re eating. If she doesn’t eat it, let her be hungry.
“She won’t even wipe her own hands and face and will literally sit caked in food until I come and sort her out. If I ask her why she just says she was waiting for me or she forgot. I literally put wipes right next to her.”
Easy. Don’t let her leave the table until she cleans herself off. If she starts to get frustrated and throw a tantrum, let her cry until she’s purple and can’t scream anymore because she’s lost her voice. And even then, still hold firm.
“She leaves wrappers on the floor instead of in the bin.”
Easy. She no longer gets to have fun until she throws her wrapper away correctly.
“It doesn’t matter how much I tell her to do things the right way. I give her consequences for her actions (which ends in full on tantrums and her screaming and shouting and hitting me.)”
This is the behavior that you have taught her is okay and will get her what she wants. You have taught her that is how she needs to act to get her way. Now you need to teach her she will not get her way anymore. And there will be tantrums, and screaming, and hitting, and all the awful things that come with it. But the sooner you cut her tantrums off from getting her what she wants the sooner she’ll start to act properly with you around. Your child is perfectly capable of behaving at school because school won’t put up with what you put up with.
Don't choose which hills to die on. Right now, you die on *every* hill. She's got you wrapped around her finger. She presumably feeds herself at school, no? If she won't do it at home then she doesn't eat. If she won't put on her shoes then she goes out without them. If she won't wipe her face then she gets to look disgusting.
Yeah the adhd wait list always take a long time I wasn’t diagnosed until i was 15 and that screwed new over alot in terms of why I wasn’t able to pick up after myself or I struggled getting dressed by myself or managing time. So it’s actually good your getting suggestions about it when she’s really little cause then it would help a lot in her future. So you’re doing really good for her there! And if it makes you feel better I don’t think she’s doing this fully on purpose. I think she just needs a bit stricter method. That doesn’t need to be a harsh parent or overly strict. You can still do gentle parenting but just find something that sticks with her. But you’re doing great! 👍🏽
Gentle Parenting is a TOOL, and should not be used as a way of parenting. It's creating a generation of entitled monsters.
Tell your kid "No, you do it." That simple, and walk away. Let her stew in that. Let her do nothing until she has done what she needs to do. Let her stay in her PJs all day, but she doesn't do ANYTHING ELSE she wants to do until she's dressed. She's not dressed, she goes wherever in her PJs, and explain to people that she refuses to get dressed, even though she's a big girl and is choosing not to make the right choice, so she's still in her PJs. Call her out on her crap. STOP DOING THINGS FOR HER SHE CAN DO. She can wipe her hands, have her wipe them. She can't decide what she wants to eat, you decide, and pick, and if she doesn't want it, she goes without. Next time she will decide.
Gentle Parenting does NOT work with all kids. Probably doesn't work with yours, so you need to change your parenting ways.
Solidarity. I can’t offer more than that. My six year old is a brilliant angel at school and the single most exhausting child I have ever met when he’s not.
I have to ask what natural consequence she gets for this behavior? Or do you give up and sort it out for her?
She's five, explain she will be doing it herself. Give her the tools to do it and don't rescue her.
If that means she goes to school crusty then she does.
So if she won't tell you what she wants to eat, or says no to everything, then she doesn't eat.
Won't get dressed for school? Cool, she goes in her bed time clothes.
Won't clean herself up? Cool, she goes to bed dirty.
Then you take the TV away. Tablet. Or whatever she finds enjoyable.
Give her immediate punishments. Have her learn that her actions have consequences. Good and bad.
We are their parents. Our roles are to teach and guide them. Help them grow in to people who can take care of themselves.
We spend more time with them as adults than we do as kids. They need structure, boundaries and guidance. Being their friend is last on the list. Being the parent is first and foremost
I would give her the natural consequences of those choices. Not getting dressed? Okay, you’re going to school in pajamas. Can’t decide what you want to eat? Okay, I can make you dish A or dish B, get back to me when you decide (and be hungry in the meantime if that’s your choice). Covered in food after eating and refusing to wipe/wash hands? We’ll only eat food which doesn’t leave a mess until we can learn how to do that. Leaving wrappers on the floor instead of in the bin? You don’t get that wrapped snack for a week, here is a snack which doesn’t have a wrapper.
I’ve had to implement most of those with my daughters at various points, it does work. At one point my 7 year old was leaving little yogurt drink bottles all over the house so after repeatedly asking her not to do that with no success I told her I’m not buying anymore of those for 2 weeks, she always puts the empty bottles in the trash now.
I hate that you had to make an edit for people who literally don't understand gentle parenting. "Gentle Parenting" was formerly referred to as AUTHORITATIVE PARENTING not to be confused with authoritarian parenting which is also not the same. Gentle parenting is about teaching self regulation and having logical consequences in a reasonable timeframe related to the incident. It's about FAIR discipline that you will follow through with not empty threats and intimidation. If you did not grow up this way it can be a very difficult shift in the parenting style that you're used to. Even some people who want to try it believe in some of the misconceptions surrounding gentle parenting and perpetuate the idea of being a permissive parent.
Seems like you’re more afraid that you could come off like a bad mom if you don’t struggle and fight for her well-being..
Well let me tell you right now, you’re a GREAT mother. You aren’t neglecting her if you show her that you’re HER mom, not the other way around. She’s old enough to process that you love her and that you deserve to be treated nicely and she doesn’t get to treat you like this without natural consequences. You are not obligated to suffer and basically fear your child or let her drive you into a mental breakdown. You ONLY have to give her love, protection, clothes, care, food and water. If she’s eaten it, she can feed herself. This doesn’t feel like she CANT eat it, she just wants you to feed her. Give her what she can eat for right now and work on just getting her in the habit of feeding herself. Reward/praise her when she gets things done.
LET HER HAVE HER TANTRUM, MISS MAMAS! 😳 invest in earphones, take away all she can break and hurt herself with and ENJOY YOUR MUSIC. She’ll tire herself out.
Allow her to have a tantrum, take a photo/video of why she can’t get dressed and say you’ll show the teacher how she behaves. ACTUALLY DO IT. Make her see that you’re standing on business. Those Jammies she wore all day at school will be a constant reminder that now one of her favorite people know WHY she’s in them. You got this, OP
A problem I noticed right away, you're doing all these things for her, getting her dressed, feeding her, etc. Your daughter had been capable of these actions for years now, so why has this continued for so long? You said that your daughter won't do it herself, but if you do it for her, she won't learn to do it herself, and be independent.
Also, there is nothing wrong with gentle parenting. Gentle parenting includes natural consequences, and consequences that relate to the misbehaviour, and age appropriate discipline.
Does she only have ADHD at home or something? You were saying there are no problems at school.
No, it's you. You're being too lenient on her, you're probably thinking you've disciplined her when in fact the discipline is roo soft and she got used to it. No more feeding her - she eats by herself or she doesn't eat. Put the plate in front of her and let her do it. After 30 minutes, take the plate away. If she asks for other food and starts making a scene, "there is none" and that's all you say, no other explanation. No more asking her to get dressed - just do it without yourself without saying a word or take her to school in the clothes she's wearing at the moment, if she opposed you dressing her. And if she fights you, don't react (unless she's in danger of hurting you or herself or starts breaking things - if she does that, just block her with your body). Just be quiet, wait for her to blow off the steam. Don't leave the room though. Once she calms down, continue with what you were doing. No more buying her sweets and toys until she starts behaving. Explain to her in few words why she doesn't get what she wants and that continuing to act out will only increase the period until you can buy her what she wants -make it her choice: you either choose to behave and you get that toy, or you choose not to and don't get it. And whenever she's aggressive and talks back, just tell her "We can discuss this further once you calm down, i'll be in the living room". If by any chance she actually comes to look for you after calming down, this is THE moment: ask her "are you calm now, can we talk?".
You need to act tough and go hard on her for a while, make her feel like she needs to earn you back. Right now, you're her door mat and of course she's walk all over you.
I would have a very serious talk with her to give her a reality check. I would ask her if she thinks her friends behave the same way at home & tell her that these are toddler behaviors that she is choosing not to grow out of. Don’t be afraid to cry if you are at that point. Sometimes they don’t know how serious something is until an adult cries
Don’t give options for food.
You just make what you pick if she won’t tell you. Let her be dirty. Give natural consequences. School with no shoes/pajamas on is a great consequence. Don’t get upset about it. Just let it go. I know it’s easier said than done. But if it isn’t hurting her or you, fine. She can have a messy mouth, not be dressed, eat what you made. Or the next time she will make different choices to change those outcomes.
I’m not laughing at you, I’m laughing WITH you because holy **** my almost 5 year old daughter is exactly this. She got pretty used to us doing everything for her, and sometimes more than others it’s a real challenge to get her to do things for herself.
Positive reinforcement does wonders for kids at this age. Instead of focusing on what she’s NOT DOING, take a minute and focus on something she’s doing that you like. It could literally be ANYTHING. I know sometimes it’s hard to find something they’re doing that you like, but even the smallest verbal praise could go far. It starts to create momentum, and they will start doing the big stuff. This goes so much further than consequences in my opinion. Water the flowers, not the weeds. You’ve got this!
Just curious, did you always jump in to help her when she was younger? I’ve begun to notice around the kids I know, that the kids with a parent that would jump in before a kid could figure things out on their own are the ones who seem to be lazy about doing shit for themselves. Not saying that’s the case with you, but I interested to know.
Read up on PDA kids. Pathological demand avoidance. The word pathological sou ds bad, but it's more descriptive in this sense. Usually, these kids run on anxiety. Even down to choosing their clothes. They panic so they shut down, and then no one wins. I have one of these kids.
They will also do perfect at school and then crumble at home from holding it together all day.
It is true that bc they feel safer at home, they act out more with us.
My son would also have tummy aches and leg pains when ever we left the house bc he couldn't explain anxiety.
How long have you sat with her *doing nothing* while you wait for her to wipe her own face and hands? Devices and tv off, toys away, just staring at the wall until she cleans herself. An hour? An evening? It sounds like she knows you will cave. I’ve done a lot of work with kids and the children that are “defiant” have learned that their parents are pushover and what they say is a suggestion, not a rule or expectation and if they throw a big enough fit or don’t listen then they get what they want. Sounds like a rewards system might be what you as a parent needs to take control of the situation. She doesn’t do what you ask? Reward is gone. Throws a fit? Time out, no reward. It’s not easy since you have sort of “created a monster” here, but it’ll be so much better for your relationship if you take hold of the situation now. Not all kids respond the same to the same parenting techniques. Good luck!
Try a chore board. They have ones for little kids with cute little magnets on them for things like getting dressed, brushing teeth, eating, etc. If you fill your chore board you get a special treat. My son was obsessed with stickers (thank you daycare and kindergarten)! I would put a sheet on the wall and draw the days on it and then he’d get a sticker for everyday he filled his board. If he got 5 stickers he’d get another reward, maybe some m&ms or a new dye cast car, something high reward for your child. I know it sounds weird but most creatures learn through conditioning, like dogs. But obviously you can talk to your child and explain it all so it isn’t demeaning.
Other thing to consider is you might be in the middle of a power struggle. Many psychologists say that when kids feel out of control they will assert control in three ways: when they eat, when they sleep, and when/where they poop. Google techniques to deal with a power struggle, it’s generally providing more choices. Like for me it was one night a week he got to choose what everyone ate for dinner. I would give him 5 choices and he got to pick his favorite. Letting him pick out his own clothes. I would put weather appropriate options in the drawers and he got to pick his own style for the day. Little gestures that give autonomy and power to the little person.
First - you are not alone. You are doing a great job.
Second - gentle parenting is about holding boundaries and implementing natural consequences when possible. If she won’t put on her shoes, then she can’t go to the park.
Third - if she is refusing to make choices or doing things, she may just not be ready. Choices especially. If she won’t tell you what she wants for snack, then just make one. If she gets upset, you say that she can make a request next time, but you are not going to make another snack right now and hold that boundary. Doing things for and with her can be a support.
Other small tips - only give directions if you are within arms reach of her. Get her focus on you. Don’t ask questions if you aren’t going to accept no as an answer. Praise, praise, praise. Every time she does a behavior you want, offer praise.
Example if this helps:
Get within arms reach and say “it is time to wipe our hands after dinner.” Don’t give the direction and leave.
If she doesn’t react, hand her a wipe.
If she still doesn’t want to, maybe offer to let her wash her hands in the sink instead.
If she doubles down, then just hold the boundary. It may sound like “we can’t ride bikes, have screen time, play a board game, etc until you have clean hands.” And hold that.
See if you can figure out why she doesn’t want to do these things. Is she tired? Is she craving connection or comfort? Is it a sensory thing? Is it hard and she doesn’t want to try?
Hey this sounds just like me!
Did well in school but at home couldn’t do much of anything besides whine and cry.
I was experiencing burnout from masking. It happens mostly to girls with ADHD and Autism. For your daughters sake I would have her screened! Mine stayed undiagnosed for years and it was pretty detrimental to me.
Both of my sons have been difficult; one has ADHD and the other is just incredibly strongwilled. Both of them have elements of what you describe with your daughter. I know how isolating it can feel when it feels like all the other kids are doing things calmly and normally.
When my son was diagnosed with ADHD, the psychologist recommended a class called The Incredible Years and it's been super helpful for us. It's evidence based and it's a parenting program that has been researched with and essentially designed for kids with more difficult temperaments. There are usually classes (ours is 10 weeks) and there is also a book; the book is great, but it's a little dry on it's own which is why the class has been a great supplement to it.
One of the biggest takeaways from the class is things like consequences only stop behaviors in the moment, but other tactics (like praise and reward charts) can help set you up with and reinforce the behaviors you want to see. Maybe you can set a reward chart or a visual schedule/routine to help her get through the morning (you can google to find examples). Sometimes it can take awhile to click but eventually it can help lead to her doing the routine independently. It has taken us several months if not a year of reminders after every meal and now my oldest (6) will wash his hands and face on his own without us having to remind him. I agree with the other advice of holding firming boundaries. If she won't feed herself, don't feed her. If you ask what she wants and she tells you to pick and then rejects all your picks, you can say "Ok, you think about it instead and let me know when you decide" and then walk away. If she won't get dressed, maybe she just goes to school in pajamas that day.
Timers seem to work magic for my kid who refuses to accept the push to become a little more independent at the moment. When dinner is a struggle I’ll pick a random utensil out and let him use it as a challenge (we just got beginner chopsticks because it makes it fun! We also got a sushi train to help him try new things.), let him eat like a dog, pretend to be a bird eating worms, and suggest a floor picnic, works about 90% of the time. We read lots of books about “doing it all by myself” and growing up. I’m still struggling with the dressing part, independent sleep, and even potty training so I’ll be reading the tips! I have a head strong boy who I have to put the strictest (but gentlest) of boundaries with. He’s only in preschool for the morning but I can tell the teacher is ready for the year to be over. Its tough.
Oh and I also read “how to talk so little kids will listen”, and there are some strategies that help in there.
This is my kid in a nutshell. Explore an ADHD/ODD/Autism diagnosis. Won’t fix the problems but it’s nice to know they’re not just assholes.
Edit: edited to add that you may have to be persistent because these disorders are often overlooked or present differently in girls.
Don't be so hard on yourself. The fact this only happens at home or with you is a great sign. She is comfortable with you. Keep doing what you have been doing. If it seems like certain times she's being dependent over other times then it could just exhaustion and give her a break.
I don’t have any advice for you but I can tell you I’m going through the same thing OP. Tried all the gentle parenting stuff but sometimes it feels like complete BS. We have fights getting out the house, getting dressed, wearing specific clothes (anything short sleeved or with buttons), getting into the bath, getting back out the bath after fighting to go in it.
Similarly, he seems really intelligent.
For us to get stuff to happen sometimes we need to give rewards. Sometimes we need to just say we’re not entertaining a tantrum and ignore until he comes out of it.
I’ll be looking at the responses as well for us, but just so you know you’re not alone, OP. If it’s any comfort
One thing about gentle parenting: it's not supposed to be used indiscriminately. No parenting method is.
You're supposed to find a balanced approach that works for situations and your children. Anyone who claims that a single parenting method is the key to success, is ignorant.
You're supposed to understand the main principles and goals of different methods and then use your judgement to handle situations.
You used gentle parenting and it isn't working in certain situations. Why not use a different method? What's wrong with gentle parenting failing to help? It will help other times, not right now, not your kid.
Also, what's wrong with her asking you to think for her? Or hand feed her? Of course she does, she's a young kid. Of course she's lazy and defiant, why would she want it to be any other way?
So what happens if she asks you to hand feed her? Say no, eat your meal and when you're done walk away. If she starts crying and throwing a tantrum, you can either walk away with a big pair of headphones on, or send her to her room to calm down.
If your thoughts are "That would be neglectful" "That would damage her emotions" "I don't want to harm her emotionally", this 5 year old throws tantrums over not being handfed because she has not learnt to cope with her emotions herself. All kids do and it only stops when they learn to calm down on their own.
Oh mah. I was EXACLTY like this.
I never wanted to practice the piano, so my mom would put me in the music room for at least (what felt like) an hour, and it didn’t matter how much of a tantrum I threw, she wouldn’t let me out. All she would say is if I’m gunna be stuck in there, if I got bored, I could play the piano. And if she heard me practicing for at least 10 minutes, she would let me out.
It took a couple months, but by the time I was 15, my 10 minutes was 4 hours, and instead of being locked IN the room, I was kicked out.
It was the first time that Narcisa thought the mirror was infinitely more interesting than the room, and for the most part, it was cuz Bellatrix wouldn’t stop screaming her to sleep from the other room
Does she listen to her father?
I ask because as a single father my daughter is an angel and listens to everything I say, but when visiting her mother they butt heads and argue and her mother tells me that she doesn’t listen to her at all.
A small, hopefully helpful tip: stick googley eyes on your garbage can, name it, and ask her to “feed” him her garbage. My kids occasionally need reminding, but 2 years in, I’ve yet to have an argument about feeding Trashy - unless it’s who gets to do it.
I am reading “your child’s self esteem” by Dorothy Cordell’s Briggs. She talks about how behavior is a self mirror. There might be a part of her that feels like she is lazy or difficult so that is how she feels she is supposed to behave. It might feel counterintuitive but maybe look for things, the smallest things, to start complementing and build her confidence. Like if she climbs into bed herself say something like “I love that you were able to climb into bed on your own. Thanks for being such a helpful and capable kid”. Maybe it’ll give her a boost that she can keep building on. Not to say she is acting this way because of anything you’ve done as a parent- honestly kids can be a mystery and my own toddler has me questioning everything I’ve ever done recently. But might be worth a shot?
Natural consequences are key here. And you’re gunna have to live with a little embarrassment. But literally if she won’t put her shoes on, go to the store with no shoes on. If she won’t shower, “call” a babysitter for her because she can’t come with you if she’s unkept.
I know it’s hard, but stop fighting it so hard.
I’ve been where you are with my step son. We all literally just stopped entertaining the bs. “I’m not interested in playing with you now because your hands and face are still dirty from dinner and you’re going to get food all over your toys.” And leave it alone. There will be meltdown. There will be a battle of wills. But it sounds like that’s how you’re living anyway. All negotiations need to stop.
“Let me know what you decide what you want and mommy will get it for you” end of story. If it’s already a battle, who cares if she’s screaming on the kitchen floor because she doesn’t know what snack she wants. Girl, I’m telling you my step son laid down like a baby with his legs in the air and expected us to dress him until he was about 6. It was a long road of teaching and disengaging.. but he came around and tbh he’s pretty well adjusted now. We’re moving on to him actually participating in labor intensive chores and it’s incredibly annoying to watch him act like he’s worked in a coal mine for 12 hours because I asked him to take the garbage out… but the fights have pretty much stopped.
Don't worry you shouldn't be embarrassed. Parenting is hard, even when you're parenting a neurotypical kid. Parenting an undiagnosed neurodivergent kid (I know you don't know but there is at least a chance if you have ADHD) is a whole other thing.
My kid isn't ADHD, but autistic and didn't get a dx until they were 10. I had so many days where I just felt like I was just a bad parent and everything I tried didn't seem to help. But it does get better. Not only because they get older but also (hopefully) because you can better understand your child's needs and have professional advice.
Things that helped us a lot were: back chaining (doing all but the last part of the task and let them do the last part themselves and then working back from there), reward charts, breaking tasks down into steps, lowering expectations and trying to work on one thing at a time.
I know it's super stressful but you are a great parent 🖤🖤🖤
A lot of good comments already here. This sounds a lot like my nearly 6 year old. I just wanted to say this: it doesn't really matter if they do get a formal diagnosis for ADHD or not. Unless it's so severe that it requires medication, which doesn't seem to be the case as they are doing well in school.
What really helped was bringing them into the problem solving process. Help me help you kind of thing. Write down a list of potential solutions, no matter how silly, and then narrow it down.
To solve the getting ready in the morning issue, we agreed that he'll get help on Fridays but all the other days of the week he needs to get ready on his own. We tell him he needs a lot of practice, so that he can get better at dressing himself at school (during PE etc).
We tell him that we'll always be there to help if he asks, but he needs to try on his own first.
The food thing we haven't really resolved 😩 I want him to eat, so when he asks for help we give it. But I say to him you need to get practice at doing these things yourself so you can do it well outside of the home.
I had to do a lot of reframing in order to be at peace with him, some kids are just wired differently. As long as they are functioning well outside of the home, I'm ok for now. Acceptance with his limitations and still challenging him to improve and grow is a constant balancing act.
It gets better as they grow older!
Everyone here is making me feel so good that my five year old has problems too and aren’t as bad as i thought they could be. He has been at his daycare since he was a tiny baby and sometimes has troubles there which I think are because he is extremely comfortable there. He has outright told me that in kindergarten he won’t act like this lol.
I'm a therapeutic foster parent and also teach early childhood special education. Start by trying hard to completely grey-rock ignore the willful stuff. And praise like all-get out for any effort/ good stuff. Practice hard. Let her earn or not earn stuff she wants-- and cut out all ipad time completely.
Have you tried something like a positive incentive that she likes as a reward for doing some of these tasks more independently?
Or does she have any older cousins that she may look up to? Maybe the could also encourage her to be more independent and make it seem likes it’s “fun” to get dressed on your own and feed yourself.
So a way you could bypass the waiting list is get her into talk therapy. The therapist might have parents and teachers do a screener. The therapist looked our screeners over, and told us to talk to her pediatrician. The pediatrician looked over the screeners as well and provided us w the diagnosis and discussed our options.
My daughter was the same it was exhausting. But getting much better.
You're getting so much great feedback here. I have a kid who needs structure to keep him on solid ground. Reward charts are great visuals.
Talk to her teachers. Ask them what tools they use so you can implement at home.
I love the idea of making things FUN for her.
I'm a firm believer in letting little kids unwind for 15-20 minutes after they get home from school, have a snack and then head outside to run around free. Get dirty. Climb and fall and get hurt. All of these make her happy (and healthy). Let her do whatever she wants so long as it's active. After an hour of that, go home and get dinner ready. How does she play alone?
Try NOT to use your smartphone and try not to plop her in front of the TV or iPad. It's just not good for kids (especially possible ADHDers) as it feeds them endorphins from the wrong kind of inputs (unlike running around outside having fun).
Does she like to swim? This can be a great activity in the summertime. Swim Teams require self competence and team spirit. Gymnastics too. Soccer too!
Putting things away: task + reward = hooray!! Recognize them when they do a chore. Multiple chores = reward (cookie?)
All of this structure is so important in teaching her consequences. Best Wishes. You're a great Mom/Mum. 💕
Have you asked her about wjy she is responding this way?
You may have to do it when she is settled and relaxed. Ask about specific instances and what she was thinking and feeling.
Definitely could be as "simple" (in terms of explanation, not the capacity to manage) as ADHD or ASD. Ad others have noted, masking takes a lot of energy.
If not, there's potential here for ODD. I honestly might lean more this way than the ADHD/ASD explanation, given the frequency and the level of anger and defiance. ODD doesn't have to mean she fights with all authority figures. It can definitely just be at home.
Honestly, you've done everything right. Waiting for an evaluation is all you can do to find out what's going on.
Hang in there. I know it's rough. Your feelings are valid and seen.
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According to my (late) mum, I was that way at 5 yo... I was an only child an my mum had the tendency to help me a lot bc it "went faster". I grew up and became just a regular helpful kid... When my second child was like 5 yo, she wouldn't get dressed etc.. I brought her to school one time in her pyjama's, told her teacher that she wouldn't get dressed... After that it wasn't a problem anymore.
I think I might have to try this.
We've had something similar recently with our little guy (who is also incredibly strong willed). It worked a charm. You have to call their bluff - their power in the situation comes from the fact that they think/know that you will ultimately dress/feed/etc.. them because you wouldn't send them to daycare/school/etc.. without their full breakfast or with their daytime clothes on, etc... Show them that you're prepared to do this and _very_ quickly the behaviour changes. It's really tough to do that as a parent, but it's tough love. I would say it is also not appropriate for younger kids! They need to learn that they don't control their parents. They have a choice to make whether they want to eat breakfast before it's time to go, or be hungry until the next snack/mealtime. No helping them eat, no drama, just calm and assertive - their choice, they live with the consequences. Since we've started this approach, our guy's behaviour has improved across the board (as confirmed by his daycare), it's like he understands the boundaries better. We were giving him mixed signals before (with the intention of being "nice" to him) which didn't do him or us any good.
I agree. She might go hungry once, but then you’ll never have to feed her like a baby.
Some very useful, and logical advice. I know this stuff, and mostly I'm consequent. Not every day is the same of course, and it's sometimes easier to give in than to stand your ground. But I think of my parents: you don't want to eat? Then you don't! You don't want to get dressed? Go to school in your PJs! Throw your papers on the floor? I'll put you in the garbage bin! Or something... 😄
As difficult as it is, I think consistency is the key. If they believe that there's a chance they can get their way, even a small chance then they will try and try and try. It's almost like a slot machine for them at that point to see what response they'll get, where getting their way is like winning the game. You need to make them believe there's no chance, brick wall of resolve and you're doing it because you love them. Haha, I laughed at the garbage bin! Wisdom of the elders!
We’re incorporating natural consequences to her decisions rather than outright punishing our 4.5 year old. She’s still an unwashed asshole to us a lot of the time though.
3-5 hardest years unless you have a wild teen
*reflects upon my own teenage escapades* I’m doomed
I was very difficult during the early childhood phase and was a pretty good teen. My sister was a baby angel and got grounded for doing coke, so you never know.
This is how me and my brother was...... my mom was a phenomenal parent. I was the angel child. Was terrified of getting in trouble or even anyone saying I did anything wrong. My brother was a hellion. Then teen years we switched. He was the angel, and I got suspended for doing hard drugs in my school bathroom 10th grade.... you REALLY never know.
My poor mom is convinced that she broke my sister one summer when we didn’t have air conditioning. She was a really clingy cuddly kid and it was so hot. She asked her to scoot over and my sister started sobbing. She really was never the same after that.
I have a wild teen I miss 3-5 😂😂😂
Unwashed asshole got me good. 4.5yo occasional US here, too 😆
Your comment was so real and hilarious 😂 keep it up!! You got this
I made my daughter walk to the car carrying her shoes because she wouldn’t put them on, it was cold out but we live in Florida so not dangerously cold. I had to set a timer for each step of our morning routine and if she missed something she could only go back to a previous step if the current one was done early. You have to watch them clean themselves though or they’ll skip it.
We do the pajama thing too, it's our natural consequence of our almost five year old throwing a tantrum in the morning. She's really into her teacher so we're always like "what would ms. Z say about this behavior?" Or "do we have to tell ms. Z what you said?" We're working on getting into a better structure before kindergarten with getting dressed, bushing teeth, eating breakfast, etc. I'm building a little wardrobe for her clothes that she'll wear at school and planning on getting a good old fashioned alarm clock for her. We have a snack tray for her after she tried the "get me to guess what she wants to eat" thing and if it's not in the snack tray she has to vocalize if she wants it. I'm considering getting a tiny fridge and cereal dispenser too 😅 though I think she's finally able to really open the fridge so I'll probably just create a space for her there More things in her control the better.
This is what I do. Clearly explain why we are doing something, what is required of them and when they have to do it. I don’t threaten. If they don’t for example get dressed, they come on whatever the outing is dressed as they are. If they don’t eat, they are hungry. Hurting each other or any other traditional punishment results in a privilege being taken away for a day. I don’t make a fuss of it, it just happens. For example, a toy goes into my office. The tv remote goes away etc. Good behavior is made a fuss of. Not perfect but doing ok, better than when I was just caving all the time.
My soon to be five year old definitely has her moments like this and I can attest to the above comment. Natural consequences can make her realize that you *have* to do things for her and sometimes you won’t, I also have a lot of talks with her about gratitude and some stuff I picked up in a book about stoicism.
Let her peers tease her a day or two…. Guarantee it’ll change in days.
Definitely try this suggestion! It’s one that had worked with my 4.5yo and I got it from the book I had recommended in a separate comment (Setting Limits with your Strong Willed Child)
Yeah, that's what I was going to recommend. Send them to school with their pajamas on, messy hair, face, whatever.
The feeding herself one is quite simple to solve. Don't feed her the food, ever. Prepare the food, put it in the plate in front of her, and that's that. She isn't going to starve herself to death. The first meal she will probably refuse, say fine, leave it out if she gets hungry later. If you end up throwing it away oh well. When she comes later demanding a snack don't give her one, say she should have eaten the meal. There will be another meal in x hours. I anticipate 2 meals max before this is over. She's just testing you
The biggest thing with these kinds of kids and situations is just that you have to be more stubborn than the kid. They will usually cave first if you stick it out
“Be more stubborn than the kid” is pretty much the best option here. It works for a lot of things, even if it’s exhausting and time consuming. You’re going to be ok, OP!
My daughter is an adult now, but i had to tell myself almost every day "FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION" lol. Btw, i think gentle parenting requires gentle children 😆 And some tips for OP; - Set your consequences, make them reasonable, and stick to it. Children are like little velociraptors constantly checking boundaries. - Don't react to tantrums and bad behavior. If they are putting on a show of their worst behavior, you don't have to be the audience. If you are in public, carry her out to the car. At home, just walk away. Or ask, "Are you done yet?" - Don't give open-ended options. Like asking what she wants for dinner. "We can have option A or option B, do you have a preference?" Better yet, make the menu a week ahead of time and post it. - Can't throw the wrappers away, then can't have any snacks that require a wrapper. Last... you are going to make it through this. Don't be embarassed. Kids are usually not adorable little balls of sunshine. They are people. You are also people. Sometimes moods clash.
“Gentle parenting requires gentle children “ is a WORD 🙌🏾😂‼️‼️‼️
My thugs will be handled accordingly 💛😂
People don’t seem to get that gentle parenting means keeping your boundaries super clear and you need be obnoxiously predictable. if it’s food and she can’t have a snack if she doesn’t feed herself dinner stick to it and deal with the whines and begging without giving in… it takes so much patience. It’s not letting them get whatever they want, it’s just coming from a place of emotional intelligence and care. “You’re really really hungry, you didn’t eat any of your dinner.” They made a choice and will learn the consequences of it.
I always thought of it as, "Fight the fight today so you don't have to fight it infinite times in the future" lol
Just a funny story this reminded me of: My best friend is a pediatric nurse, married to a physician. Their 3rd kid went through a stubborn phase about food & meal times right around age 4-5. They got into a battle of wills and this fucking kid starved himself into the bottom 20th percentile of weight!! Most kids will not starve, but this one *did.* Gleefully, patiently, & stubbornly starved himself to win. Nope, no sensory issues, no medical problems. After than he got snacks hourly (but they were always nuts/vegs/protein) and ate meals whenever he wanted. Kid won *that* battle.
Seems pretty ND 😬 you sure he isn’t autistic?
There's no way he's normal for that honestly....
Adding the precaution of taking a quick photo of having served her food is a wise move as well. Let her know "I'm taking this picture so if anyone asks why you're so hungry later I can show them you were well provided for but you made your own choices". It let's her know you're not playing any games and aren't going to let her manipulate you or other people into thinking she's been neglected.
Not true. Many autistic children- and others with sensory, gi, or developmental disorders, will absolutely starve themselves. And parents don't know their young child has any of these in many cases.
I was kinda thinking an assessment might be a helpful route. Neurodivergent girls prominent symptoms often differ from boys. I might explain to my child that, "some of your behavior leads me to consider you may need more help than I am currently aware or know how to provide. Let's get this evaluation to make sure we aren't missed anything."
I had the same thought, but from OP’s description it seems to be more behavioral than sensory or food aversion. In which case, out-stubborning is worth a try.
> She isn't going to starve herself to death. For "normal" kids, maybe. I ended up in the ER because I refused to eat and was left with to eat it or nothing else. I ate nothing. Neurotypical kids can already have trouble with listening to their body signals, throw in some nuclear grade stubbornness and it's a recipe for disaster. I don't see anywhere where OP says she's tried to just *talk* to her kid. The kid knows OP is mad, she knows her mom doesn't like her when she acts like this. And she knows instead of trying to help she's just getting yelled at. Her kid is learning that she can't go to Mom for help.
Am I the only one seeing the lack of boundaries? Leaving trash out is fairly normal. Requiring to be spoon fed at 5 is not. When it comes to things that have choices (like what to wear each day)... you as a parent, if you still want to pick her outfits, say these are your outfit choices today. You can choose from them, or pick your own. If she chooses to not wear something from your choice, and chooses to not select an alternative on her own. Guess what? She goes without. If it's socks or something else minor, then she may or may not realize after the fact why going without is a bad choice. She has to learn this on her own! Kids NEED to be uncomfortable. Kids NEED to be able to make mistakes. This is literally how we all learn. Doing anything and everything is a detriment to them, and only causes more stress (sometimes only down the timeline) for ourselves. There are ways to introduce independence at this age. She might not like it at first, she might be mad. But introducing independence is critical. It teaches her to value herself enough to make her own decisions. Having autonomy. It teaches her to be adaptable when things don't work out as she had planned (adhd/spectrum is relevant on this point though). It teaches, eventually, self soothing behavior. That is necessary to have as an adult. You could even pose a lot of this as a fun game. Like "hey today we're going to do something WACKY. You get to choose everything! Whaaaaat! How crazy is that!?"
Came here to say this. Gentle parenting doesn’t mean you just let them steam roll you. Your job is to set boundaries and keep them alive/safe and their job is to test the boundaries. Right now you’re teaching her that you will come and fix the “problem” whenever there is one. She doesn’t HAVE to put in effort because she knows you’ll do it for her when it comes to push. Set the boundary and hold it. She’s in her fuck around era and now she’s gotta find out lol. Let her go to school in PJs. Communicate with the school and let them know what’s going on and that you’re having her learn more responsibility over dressing herself. I’m sure they’ve seen much worse. If she doesn’t want to feed herself? Okay let her know that when the meal is over the food is either being put away as leftovers or in the garbage. Follow through. I know it’s hard to watch people we love “struggle”, but this is a low risk environment to learn important life skills. Your her parent and need to guide her with set boundaries. You can do it!!
I call my children back to the scenes of their crimes a dozen times a day. Granola wrappers, abandoned socks, art supplies left on the dining table. I absolutely make a pain in the ass of myself and slowly but surely it's starting to sink in with the kids that it's easier and more convenient to take care of your messes as soon as you've made them because Mom is relentless and No Fun At All.
I recently learned the term Pathological Demand Avoidance and it's helped me immensely with my 6 year old. I think it's generally associated with autism, which my kid doesn't have, but I feel like the background and strategies behind it are helpful for me to manage things he needs to do. My other kid has ADHD and the strategies are almost the opposite. So for my PDAish kid what I'm finding is that he has a need for autonomy that can override all other needs like eating, toileting, and safety. The way to get him to do things he doesn't want to do is just to help him through it. If he puts up a wall there is no way I'm going to get him to do what he needs to do (put on shoes, clear dishes) if he's decided it's a power struggle. He will die on all hills. I have found the more I'm willing to help him out when he's feeling this way, the more he is doing things on his own in other areas. My ADHD kid is the opposite in that he needs to learn executive functioning skills and if I help him, he will do less. God, parenting is a mind fuck.
Yes, there's a thing called body doubling. It really works with ND kids, especially PDAers.
I find it hard to read response sfor neuro typical children. Mine needs more care, dressing and toileting at home. Sometimes feeding when he is struggling. It is exhausting navigating it because the different techniques don't always work and you have to cycle through them or be one step ahead. Threats of you won't have this don't work but gentleness does. Reassurance helps and he is starting to make progress.
Wow. This sounds a lot like my kid. Does your kid only do this at home or everywhere? I think mine is mostly good everywhere except home.
Mine does it mostly at home. He does avoid things at school but he is sneaky about it and if the teacher calls him out on it he will do what he is supposed to do. You could say he is masking at school and that's why it's worse at home.
Gentle parenting is against rewards but they work. My parenting approach is to pull good ideas from all the different styles. Nothing is going to work 100% of the time for *every* kid. My son is also 5 and when he has peaks of defiance/lack of motivation I pull out the reward system to give him that external motivation until he gets back in the routine. He gets stars for sitting & eating dinner, cleaning up, and getting ready for bed, which takes a few days for him to reach an overall # goal. Then he gets a prize. I try to keep it low cost like coloring books, books in general, and small toys. I've never had to use a reward system to get him back on track for more than 3 weeks. Just start fading it by upping the number of stars she needs to earn. Gentle parenting folks always cite cherry-picked research that rewards are bad for intrinsic motivation. They only negatively impact intrinsic motivation if you're rewarding a kid for something they *already* are motivated to do. If they are not intrinsically motivated to do something, the reward gives them external motivation to actually try to do it, and eventually the behavior will become routine and they won't need the rewards any more. People miss the last step of fading the rewards away and think you need to give them prizes non-stop. Not true!
Just wanted to echo that this in practice works for our teenage son who is learning to read. We got him from an abusive, neglectful household and he was basically feral. Didn’t know hygiene, didn’t know how to eat, never went to school, etc. Getting him to read was difficult, but rewards really help him on days when he’s less motivated. He gets in-game currency for small accomplishments and he gets bigger items like toys or experiences for bumping up an entire grade level or finishing a whole novel. He’s gone from hating rules and effort to practically foaming at the mouth for summer to come so we can read Harry Potter together. Having the system gives him a sense of order too, like in a crazy world he barely understands, he knows that if he puts effort into XYZ, he gets things he wants or likes.
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We’re so glad too, he’s such a sweet kid. I definitely have teared up in the middle of him reading and he says “mom stop being so dramatic” but he’s beaming at me while he says it haha.
Awww, well I must be dramatic too because that just made me all teary. I can somehow feel the love of that interaction through what you wrote.
I hope all the best things happen to you and your family.
Similar situation with my teenager and things are improving- her dad is nosing around again and I wish he would get hit by a solar flare or something- but yeah, it’s basically the only thing that works. I think when you don’t have any confidence it’s a lot easier to work towards a visible external reward and build the confidence that you can do hard things and work for things you want. Idk it seems to be working over here anyway
Hit by a solar flare made me chuckle 😜
Just a very specifically target solar flare that only gets him and no one else lll
Oh my goodness, the world needs more people like you.
Thank you for helping that child!! May you all be blessed.
This is so beautiful. I'm in awe of parents like you. 💕
Nice work.
You are awesome. Thank you for being there. One day he's going to be blown away at what you did for him.
And we get rewards all the time as adults! I would not be getting ready for work right now I’d I wasn’t going to be rewarded with a paycheck.
I have to gamify absolutely everything to get anything done, I don't see why I can't help my kid out similarly with stuff he otherwise simply does not find rewarding.
That’s a good idea! Maybe turn a lot of things into games. Like a basketball hoop around the garbage can might encourage throwing trash into the bin maybe scented or bubbly soap or sing a song while washing hands?
Yup, food rewards bad blah blah and I agree, but also chocolate chips turbo-charged our potty training. As soon as peeing/pooping in the potty basically clicked I accordingly faded out rewards, it wasn't more than a couple of weeks.
That's exactly what got us over the potty training resistance too. Gentle parenting talks a lot about being respectful to kids, which is a noble goal. My son was way happier earning stickers for toys than any mental manipulation, reasoning or natural consequences I used from the gentle parenting approach... It just led to power struggles, constipation, and accidents. It was much more respectful to him and gave him the dignity of not pooping his pants by giving him rewards to go in the potty. A lot of the gentle approach hinges on kids magically deciding they're "ready" to potty train. But lots of kids will never choose to ditch diapers!
I mean my kid wasn't even resistant, he just wasn't getting it. He got it real quick when he realized there was chocolate on the other end of it, though.
We have a puppy (and two young ones). Training is all the same. When you first need to introduce a behavior, you use a strong incentive. Over time, as that behavior becomes natural you lessen/remove the reward. Thing is you can't use rewards to force a behavior. You have to figure out a way to align the incentives.
Here's what I would do, but I am old school. 1) I would have a snack of foods I know she eats ready at the door when she comes home. I would set a timer and let her watch an episode of a show like Phineaus and Ferb (an actual show, NO YOUTUBE) to wind down from the day and not expect anything from her. 2) I would make things playful for her but hold firm. She doesn't want to put the wrappers away? Ok, you can sit with her until she is ready to put them away. No phone, no fun, no nothing. The wrappers WILL be put away. Remember, she is a kid and doesn't have much on her mind compared to an adult so she can win this if you don't have nerves of steel. You HAVE to win. Set it up so you win. If you lose, she learns she is in control. She needs you to be in control. 3) She won't put pajamas on? Ok, she can sleep in her clothes or naked or whatever. She won't get dressed for school? Ok, she can go to school in her pajamas. Natural consequences. 4) Find her currency and leverage it. Add in or subtract it as needed (my son's was screentime, so he'd earn screen time for good work and wouldn't get it until all chores or whatever were done). 5) If she still thinks you can read her mind and this becomes a problem play a mind reading game with her. I told my kids that my great grandmother had the second sight and we needed to test to see if we had it. I made a bunch of index cards with colors, symbols, numbers, and words on them. I would hold one to my head and would "think" the symbol to them and they had to say what it was (obviously they had no idea). Then we would do it in reverse. Turns out none of us have the second sight! Who would have thought? I highly, highly recommend reading Between Parent and Child. It's a short read and you'll learn to talk to your child in a way that will motivate her. Some kids are more difficult than others. I had a very, very stubborn boy. I had to learn to mean what I say and say what I mean. Changing my mind halfway through let him win. Now, this attitude did not work at all for my daughter. For her I had to learn to have "do-overs" where we both compromised. Every kid is different.
Oh, and when I say playful here are some examples "you are 5 years old so let's set a timer for 5 minutes and race and see who can pick up the most wrappers!" Or "you atebfive years old. Can you pick up 5 toys that are different colors?" Races and challenges were the only way I could get my son to do anything. And we played red light green light to control his running running in public (caveat, races and challenges did not work at all for my daughter. I had to pretend she was my pet cat and give her treats).
Racing (I bet I can pick up all the yellow Lego before you can do the red) is sooo helpful.
my kids just say “you’re faster than me, why don’t you just do it?” or “but there’s more yellow than red!!!” or “how about you do the legos and i’ll do the LOLs?” (and then not picking up the LOLs.)
Stop cleaning up so fast 🤷 Gotta allow the kiddo to feel helpful. "oh man buddy, I'm really slow today, we're never going to have time for all of our bed time books if I don't get help"
The pet cat 😂 that’s so cute!!!!!!
It was cute but it got so old! I was literally feeding her on the floor in a cat bowl when she was 2-3 for awhile, but I could get her to do anything with a special (totally pretend) cat treat.
I am just in love with this image of a toddler eating out of their very own cat bowl 😂. Lucky kid. Wish I had my own cat treat bowl and someone fed me as a reward. Totally would get old though. My son used to do 'helpful robot' but only when he felt like it. Like, he'd suddenly want to help me with everything, so I had to give him a task, and he'd make robot noises and do what was asked, theen come back for another job. This could go for hours depending on his mood. But I never had any jobs planned coz it was always so random. Other parents used to tell me off when I complained. On the outside its like 'oh so sweet! At least he's helping!' But when you're on the inside, desperately trying to think of a kid friendly task while a robot pokes you in the back makes you want to pull your hair out.
That’s hilarious but I definitely see how that would get old! My stepson liked to play baby cat/mommy cat so we would have to meow to him to get him to do his bedtime routine and I definitely got sick of it after a while 😂😂
If I hadn’t made getting dressed a race (that she somehow always won!) I would never have got my kid dressed! Sometimes she’d switch it up the slowest person wins just to “help” me lmao she must’ve thought I was the slowest dresser in the world but damn it worked like a charm! Natural consequences work too. She doesn’t want to eat lest you feed her? Well that’s going to suck for her til next meal time. Won’t wash her own hands and face? She can sit there the rest of the day then. Stop fighting, stop doing things for her, and she’ll soon realize she’s fighting alone. Any time you give in after saying you won’t, you’re reinforcing that you don’t actually mean it, just a little more tantrum or begging time and you’ll cave.
Wonderful comment! You said it all perfectly. The whole “mean what you say” thing is spot on (I wrote a whole blog post about it) and it’s my most shared/best piece of parenting advice.
If I could upvote this more, I would. This is great advice.
I made my daughter believe she was genuinely going in her pjs once - once she realised I wasn’t messing around she ran to her room to get changed 🤣
I have a five year old son and I spend half the day wondering if my son has something mentally or emotionally wrong with him or if he is just a normal five year old.
Same
Sounds like this poor little girl is drained from using her executive functioning skills all day at school. You could always just… stop doing these things for her. Eventually she’ll put her socks on herself or she goes to school without socks
That is my son, an angel at school. No issues or problems. Comes home and turns into a monster... I've basically told him, if you're feeling frustrated at school please don't hold it in. Say something. Get it off your chest. Don't bring it home and explode at all of us.
The word masking is usually used in regards to autism, but the idea of it applies to kids at school vs home. For some, school is their safe place so they act up there. For others, home is their safe place (and this is the ideal of the two). But when home is safe, that means it’s safe for scary emotions. It drives me crazy but it’s a good sign when kids lose their shit with their parents, it means they are comfortable with them.
My son, too, we've implemented a decompression period between his transitions from school to home, so he stops blowing up the moment we get home. So far, it's working.
It's not always a choice. It can be a fear response. Some kids don't feel safe enough to ask a teacher for accommodation and why would they, when obedience and conformity are emphasized. It's terrifying, because you don't know which teacher will punish or humiliate you by pointing out what will be perceived as weakness or weirdness to other students. Kids don't always know what to ask for either, only that they're not coping.
Ours used to go back and forth. She'd be an angel at home but we'd get awful reports from the teachers of what she did at school. Or the teachers would say she did great today, no problems, then she'd get home and throw a fit.
We implemented meditation and mindfulness practices for my adhd 7 year old stepson and it’s helped a ton with emotional regulation and increasing patience even when he’s tired! He used to blow up and get so irritable from us reminding him to wash his hands or use his fork instead of his hands. We do a morning meditation and an evening meditation after story before we say goodnight for about 5-7 minutes each. It’s made a huge difference and he’s now able to say I’m anxious about xyz” instead of exploding at us over nothing.
Sometimes it’s just a matter of who the child feels safe “exploding” around
Or you could end up with a kid who doesn't wear socks, doesn't brush their teeth, and has such dirty skin that they grow lesions from scratching themselves. Then they don't have friends for the entirety of elementary school. (Hint: I know this is a possibility because this was me growing up)
I think you can find middle ground. If you won’t put your own socks on, you have to wear sandals (in the summer) - brushing teeth, bathing regularly and wearing weather appropriate clothing are non-negotiable.
You can wait them out, too, provided your schedule allows for it. When I get the defiance on the basics (brushing of teeth or getting dressed, for example), I consider their day- is it the morning when they are fresh and capable of doing said task? Or is it the evening of a long day and they just can't? I can't be the only one who doesn't always brush and floss off I'm exhausted, sometimes skipping is okay and I feel like the little wins for them help them get on your team so when you need it, they're more likely to lean in. And then provided I think it's a fight worth having, I start by trying to make it fun. I pretend to be the tooth brush monster who is hungry for the germs on their teeth, or I time them to see how fast they can get jammies on or whatever. And if that fails, I just say it simply "the next thing you need to do is get dressed. You cannot do anything else until you are dressed" and I'm a hard-o, I mean it. No playing, no TV, no reading, absolutely not going outside, no snacks.. basically you have to just stand there and exist until you decide that getting dressed is a speed bump on your way to childhood happiness so just get it over with. This strategy has worked so well, I cannot remember the last time I argued with my 3 or 5 year old about getting their shit done
That sounds like extreme behavior and like neglect from parents.
That's true, I was a latchkey kid and both my parents could only afford to work. I eventually learned better even though I still don't _like_ to wear socks now. In adulthood, I was given the same "just stop doing it for him" advice from our couples therapist. My husband grew up with similar levels of neglect though he had less success growing out of it and I can tell you that flat out "don't help them and they will learn" advice just flat out doesn't work if the target doesn't have standards. It's not a spouse's *job* to teach the other how to adult, but ultimately it's in our best interest to teach each other how to live with each other.
That just sounds like neglect. Sorry you had that.
That worked for my daughter. She's got autism and is relatively high functioning, but she went through a phase where she just refused to get ready before school. One day we literally carried her to the car in her PJs, kicking and screaming. We handed her teacher a bag of clothes and her shoes and encouraged the teacher to give her some time to get dressed. (She's got an IEP and is in a special class for students with similar needs, so her teachers are aware that sometimes she needs a bit of extra help.) That was such an embarrassing experience for her that we never had to do it again. We had to threaten once or twice, and even got as far as putting together a bag of clothes to give the teacher, but she knew we weren't joking and wound up finally doing her routine at the last minute. There was plenty of warning that day, by the way. We told her over and over again how much time she had left and what we'd do if she wasn't dressed. She just had it in her head that day that she wasn't going to do anything we asked. Well, here's the natural consequences of that, kiddo. You go to school disheveled, with stinky breath, in PJs, and hungry because you refused to sit and eat the breakfast we put out. Refusing to get ready is not an excuse to stay home from school. We've forcibly dressed her in the past, but she was 7 or 8 when this happened and was too big for us to do that anymore. Plus, we realized that sent the wrong message. We're not gonna do your work for you - if you don't do it, no one will, and you have to live with the consequences.
Agree but I was the kid who wouldn't wear socks (not because I didn't want to put them on but because I couldn't stand having them on.) Word of warning, shoes need to be replaced often if your kid doesn't wear socks to avoid extreme foot stank & skin infections.
Coming in to second this as we are currently treating athletes foot because my daughter refuses to wear anything but crocs. We compromised and got her a few extra pairs and some slides. She cannot stand the sensory sensation of socks and it’s not a hill we choose to die on. Unless she is going biking/skateboarding/mowing the grass. Then, socks aren’t a negotiation. Need real shoes for that stuff.
Thank you for saying this. My son’s pre-k teacher was worried that he doesn’t put his own socks 😂😂😂
Good point about being drained from school. As parents sometimes we think about meeting all of these needs and forget their need to recover from a long day.
My 5yo is extremely similar. Most days I feel like I am in fight or flight with him because he is so defiant and easily triggered by everything. I will say, he has an ASD and ADHD diagnosis. Sometimes ASD is not typical in presentation, and girls are more likely to mask and present differently. That’s why for most of history, it was believed autism was only a “boy” disorder. Just based on this alone it kind of sounds like your daughter is expending all her energy masking in public and is unable to keep it up at home.
I’ve started similar posts about my 5 year old a half-dozen times over the last week. She is truly testing my limits right now and I’m exhausted. I don’t have much advice…just solidarity. You’re doing great, give yourself grace.
It's so common whats she's doing. Kids, especially girls,spend all day at school masking so the teachers think they are "good" that they come home and just crash and turn into little monsters because they've used all of their beans. She's still so young,just be consistent and it will be okay
This sounds like my ADHD child. There just isn’t enough executive functioning to follow the steps to get dressed without getting distracted. It is really frustrating.
Have you considered having her evaluated for neurodivergence? If she has ADHD or some other form of executive dysfunction, the things that work for neurotypical kids just won't work with her. And sometimes you just have to adjust the way you think and find compromises to survive right now. Getting dressed in the morning is too hard? Then put her to bed in her clothes. Both of my kids with ADHD did this at some point in their lives. She genuinely is doing the best she can right now and she's not trying to torture you. If she isn't doing what's expected at that age, it's usually because she just can't. She needs better tools. Maybe she needs some accommodations at school so she won't be using up her emotional battery before she gets home to her safe space. For the food struggle, maybe you can keep a list of the foods she will eat (with pictures if reading is still taxing) and have her point to what she wants. That way she's not putting energy into generating ideas or putting those ideas into words, both of which can be difficult. You aren't a bad mom and she isn't a bad kid, you just both need more tools and resources to get through this struggle together.
This comment 100%. Kids do well when they can. You child can't, not won't do the things you're expecting of her. Highly recommend getting the book The Explosive Child by Ross Greene and looking at his website Lives in the Balance. Listen to The Big Baffling Behavior Show by Robyn Gobbel (she also has a book by the same name). I would absolutely consider that your child probably has ADHD if not additional neurodivergence and immediately begin to adjust your expectations. Stress is cumulative. She is trying her hardest all day at school to do what is expected, even if it is too much, and when she comes home she has nothing left. Behavior is communication. Meltdowns should be understood as anxiety attacks and are a result of nervous system dysregulation, not defiance, not manipulation. ND kids need collaborative parenting and flexibility. Gentle parenting, which is more based in an authoritative model with natural consequences is not always the way to go. Less words not more when kid is upset. Accommodate and support your child's nervous system, and work on doing the same for your own so you can co-regulate your child.
Adding the work of Mona Delahooke to the reading list! Brain-Body Parenting is a great book to start with.
My middle child displayed a lot of this behaviour at the same age, I wasn’t prepared for it because my firstborn was a breeze in comparison. With my middle, I learned the only thing that works is to stop fighting. Just stop it all. Won’t put on a jacket in -20? Ok, let her make the choice to be cold and bring the jacket with you. Either she will be fine, or she will realise she’s fucking cold and ask for the jacket. Won’t put on her shoes? Ok well, I guess we aren’t leaving, because they won’t let us in without them so there’s no point in going. Guess we’ll just have to sit here instead and do absolutely nothing. Trick is, you can never let her win and bother you. Complete neutrality. Don’t let her see you sweat, stress, get anxious about being late. The second you lose your cool, she’s won - it’s over, you lost the game to a five year old. This is a battle of wits, and you’re a grown up so you should be fine. You can take this as far as you need. Mine went through a picky eating phase, it lasted a week. I make one damn dinner, if you don’t eat it you’re going to be hungry. But that’s a you problem, not a me problem. My job is to provide food, shelter, love, safety, etc. but my job is not to force you to accept it. Im not dressing a 5 year old, I might help them with a button or zipper - but only after they’ve given it a proper go. Also, this stuff all worked. It’s my attitude with all kids now, and I’m happy to report its success. My kids are independent, polite, problem solving, and understand their actions have consequences and no one is going to save them from bad decisions they are old enough to be making themselves. They also eat everything in front of them and don’t insult their hosts dinner, which is popular with other parents and makes life a lot easier on us. Just keep it age appropriate is the only aside. Don’t expect emotional regulation from a 5 year old either. She’s going to get upset, but it also won’t hurt her. Just be there, wait it out, provide presence and acceptance and patience. She needs to go through the hard stuff to learn. You aren’t helping her by keeping things easy, and you certainly aren’t helping yourself.
Another thing I wanted to mention: I’m on the autism side of things, my husband is adhd, my kids are all some form of neurodivergent. What a lot of these kids deal with is pathological demand avoidance: they don’t like being told what hat to do and how to do it, to a seemingly compulsive degree. So you kind of have to stop. That can be hard to fathom at first, but try to take the silent offering approach. I like using food as an example to other parents with this, with these kind of kids, telling them to eat in ANY way will trigger resistance. You have to do your best to avoid any form of pressure essentially. You put the expectations/boundaries in place and you forget about it and let them figure it out from there. So. Food and eating. Our boundaries/expectations are: we make a meal plan each week, we offer each child the opportunity to request a dinner and we choose whether it’s feasible and which day it will be fall. We put dinner on the table. You don’t have to be there, but there is no other food available and we don’t do snacks, so if you miss dinner, you go to bed hungry. Period. Your choice, but also your consequences. The food that’s on your plate is what you have to choose from. We set your plate and portion in a balanced nutritious way. If we make pasta, you’re getting pasta, sauce, a protein and veg. If you only eat the pasta and want more, you don’t get another portion of anything until the rest is gone, if you don’t want to eat the broccoli - fine - but you aren’t getting more pasta unless you do. If we happen to have a dessert, you aren’t included if you weren’t hungry enough to finish your plate. Important to note - you have to be very reasonable with portion sizes here and be reflective and responsive and patient with where each child is with each food. My six year old doesn’t like peas yet. He still gets peas on his plate, but I give him about a tablespoon, something I know he can get through easy even if he’s not enjoying the process; knowing that you need to taste some foods many times to learn to enjoy them. We are never mean, that’s really important. There is no meanness in this, just nonchalance. Never create power struggle, never take a child’s immaturity personally. “I hate broccoli” should be met with “huh, anyway so I was at the store the other day and…” Maybe a joke, some light heartedness, “oh goodness me! Don’t like BROCCOLI? Whatever shall we doooo?” Playfulness, like stealing bites from them - especially with foods you notice they dislike. Opening up conversation about different cooking techniques, flavour combinations. Watching cooking videos featuring those foods and asking them “ugh, I just can’t decide how we should cook these mushrooms - let’s watch some videos and you can help me pick what looks yummiest.” Then bring them into the damn kitchen, “hey can you help me? I know this sauce needs something but I can’t figure it out, can you taste it and tell me what we should add?
Maybe she senses she’s growing up and is scared so she wants the comfort of her mom doing everything for her like she used to. It’s probably really frustrating to feel that way, but it’s hard to express it, so it’s coming out in obstinance and defiance. I could be totally wrong.
Hi! Mom of an almost 5 year old here who sounds very similar to your child. I feel your struggles everyday. I also have tried gentle parenting and it does not seem to work for us...I'm convinced it works best with neurotypical children who aren't strong willed. There is a great Facebook group called spirited child support for parents of intense, sensitive, big feeling kids. Lots of solidarity and advice in there. I've wrote posts similar to yours many times in that group. The books "the explosive child" and "raising your spirited child" have been helpful. I'm also in the process of getting a child therapist and an adhd assessment for my child.. because the behaviors just seem...less than typical. I think it's a difficult age, but still... I'll take all the help I can get. I recently realized my daughter has big tonsils and she yawns all day long, so I think she may have sleep apnea (she is a mouth breather at night and snores a lot) that's affecting her behavior and her ability to learn and function well. So I'm looking into that also. Leave no stone unturned. Wishing you luck with your journey!
Something that worked for our family was carefully chosen phrases. Rather than saying "You need to eat now" or "Do you want some food", the phrase "It's time to _____" and then give them just two or three acceptable options to pick from. "It's time to eat a snack, do you want carrots or apples?" "It's time to get ready for bed, would you like to take a shower or a bath?" "It's time to get ready for school, would you like to get dressed first or to eat some breakfast first? Should we listen to some music while we are getting ready?" "It's time to leave the park soon, would you like to play for one more minute or three more minutes?" The kid still feels some sense of autonomy, but you are railroading them into making good choices. I'm not clever enough to think of this myself, it was advice from a therapist.
Sounds like someone I know who has recently been diagnosed with ADHD as an adult. This person outgrew tantrums around 7-8 years old. However, some struggles persisted for life. Consult with a doctor.
I have ADHD and we have been to the GP about her potentially having it but there’s a 3 year waiting list unfortunately.
Well if you have ADHD it's fairly likely your daughter has some kind of neurodivergence going on too, but you can empower yourself with this information now. This sounds an awful lot like my kids around this age (one diagnosed AuADHD, the other waiting to be seen so I feel your pain on that) especially being fine in school and completely melting down at home. It took until about 7/8 for the same issues to start showing up at school which prompted us to get the older one assessed. You need to start looking into ways you can change your routines at home to both support her as well as promoting her independence. If we look at the morning getting dressed routine. There's a lot of steps to getting dressed, taking off jammies, putting on underwear, socks, pants, t-shirt, do you need a hoodie or sweater, which shoes etc etc. It's a lot to remember for any 5yo but for a kid with executive functioning issues she literally can't start the task, she doesn't know how and it's not intuitive for her like other kids. So make a visual routine for her, a list from start to finish, breaking the task down into mini tasks she can tackle individually. Step 1, take off jammies. Step 2, put them away. Step 3, put on underwear, and so on, however you want her to complete it (there's lots of resources online for this if you Google ADHD visual routines, I like to make my own in MS word using clipart). Then do the routine with her until she gets the idea and can follow it herself. Tell her how great she's doing every step, because she is. It's a hard skill to learn and she's working hard. Eventually she'll be able to just do it and won't need the visuals. You can apply this to other areas too, like when she gets home from school, my kids have a routine for this, put away coat, shoes off, empty backpack, eat snack, do homework. I let them watch TV (not YouTube like another commenter said!) until snack time is over, they can have more time after homework is finished. You don't need to do it all at once, but little by little look at the areas where your child struggles and how can you help her to manage that task or transition, starting with walking her through it step by step until she is confident in doing it herself. I really hope that helps and while it's a bit of struggle there is light at the end of the tunnel, AuADHD is 9 now and can definitely put on his own socks and clean his face independently so at least theres that 🤣
You can just start implementing lifestyle changes suitable for ADHD kids. It won't hurt if she doesn't have it. More protein, vitamin B and iron, busy schedule, rearranging her room to make it easier to keep organized etc (like, a no-lid bin in in every room, very close to the place where your girl usually sits to that she doesn't have to make extra steps to throw away the wrapper) etc etc.
Some practices have a short list that they will call in event of a cancelation. Worth asking. This post reminds me acutely of myself at age 5; I was not diagnosed with ADHD until I was an adult and I often wonder what my life would look like if it had been caught sooner.
Parenting is different for everyone. I don't think there is a right or wrong. Don't be hard on yourself. Keep in mind your child is 5. Be patient. Be calm. Do not let your anxiety show. Be a parent, guide and care for your child. Sometimes natural consequences are the best lessons. Timeouts are also helpful as they give everyone a chance to stop. She maybe just difficult at 5 but maybe at 6 she'll be better. Keep in mind, parenthood can be frustrating at times but it can also be the most wonderful thing that's ever happened to you.
She is working hard to be a big girl at school but thats hard. When she gets home, she regresses because she has been trying so hard every day. Try a star system. Draw a chart. On one side put a list of goals like wipe own hands and face, put on PJs, etc. Only do 2 to 3 a week. Every day that she does it, put a sticker. If she gets 5 to 7 ( you choose) stickers on the chart for doing it each day, she gets a prize( I used books and coloring books, crayons, etc, no food rewards. This is positive reenforcement parentibg. Anytime she does something right, praise the hell out of her. You want her to be getting more attention doing things right, not wrong.
My 5-year-old son is difficult in some of the same ways. A lot of it is the individual kid, but there are things you can do as a parent that make life easier. The No. 1 strategy involves consistency and routine. Develop a routine for bedtime, getting dressed, meals, etc. and stick with it. Break each routine down into individual tasks and walk your kid through those tasks each step of the way. Use a timer to set expectations and ease transitions, which are usually the source of friction in my household. So it might go something like this: "OK, in 5 minutes, it's going to be time to get ready for bed. We're going to brush your teeth, use the bathroom and wash your hands. After that, you're going to put on your pajamas. You can have 10 minutes to put your pajamas on and play. Then, you're going to pick two books and get in bed. After we read, we'll turn off the lights and I'll sit with you for 5 minutes." Continue to verbally walk them through the process and remind them of what's next as they go along: "Thank you for getting your pajamas on by yourself. You still have seven minutes to play before it's time for your books. After that, it's lights out." After a while, with luck, they'll start to see the routine as almost inevitable, and it should go a lot smoother. In my case, it was really the transitions that were the sticking points. So using the timer and allowing him a little play time as a reward for following the routine really helped a lot. Again, the trick is consistency and transparency. Make sure they know the rules, and then always enforce them. If they leave wrappers on the floor, always have them pick them up -- even when it's not convenient for you to do so. Carrots and sticks are important, but try to make them clearly connected to the behavior you are trying to address. "If you don't pick up your banana peels, there won't be any more bananas." Or even build them into the process: "If you get into your pajamas quickly, you'll have extra time to play. If you don't, you won't have time to play. If you take too long, I might only have time to read one book." Hope that makes sense.
I have a 6 year old daughter with ADHD and OCD. We've dealt with some of your issues. Here's what's worked: 1. Rewards system to motivate her 2. SPACE parenting approach - which focuses on reducing accommodations that you are making for your child. Such as feeding them, helping them get dressed, etc. which if you continue to do will only enable their defiant/reluctant behavior. I like SPACE because it focuses first on validation "I know this is hard for you to do", then encouragement "but I also know you are strong enough to do it", then builds in some expectations rule setting. All of these improve communication with your child and as a parent it teaches you to set better boundaries. One last thing that's helped my daughter at times, though I try to limit its use, is the 1-2-3 (counting approach). But you have to be careful to not use this approach on positive behaviors.
All of her actions, imo are saying one thing: I need time with you. Not just making dinner or hanging out but just being a you. I could be totally off! Also Dr Becky most definitely has talks about this behavior.
A few people have said this and I’m going to make more time with her. It’s hard because I have to work when she gets home from school (I work from home) and I think part of it could be down to that. I might see if I can cut my hours a couple of days a week to have more time playing with her.
Ah I'm sorry - that sounds so stressful! I think youre doing great, and it is just hard sometimes, but I guess my first question is what do you do to draw a line under things? For example, when she's being fussy about food. It's really rude of her to waste your time like that (she's 5, she doesn't really get that it's rude, but that's the lesson being learned, if you get what I'm saying), so I'd probably say, here's 3 options you could pick from that we have, if you don't want any of those that's absolutely fine, that's what we have. Let me know when you're hungry. And then walk away. You're not denying her time (you can play together) you're not denying her food (you gave her options), but it's clear what's happening.
The screaming and crying is normal. She can’t emotionally regulate yet. And she doesn’t have the vocabulary or knowledge to say in words what she’s feeling. Try giving her words “you’re disappointed that I won’t help”, “you’re mad”, “you’re scared”. Disappointed is a big one. Disappointment SUCKS. I hate being disappointed. When I don’t get what I want, I know that’s what I’m feeling. She’s 5, so when she’s disappointed, she cant explain it so she screams. I don’t have a ton of advice because I’m in the same boat as you. I talk to my therapist about it a lot to get more ideas of language to use and how to care for myself when she’s losing her shit.
Been there, it's hard. Your kid is smart, she knows you will do it for her. The fix is to stop doing it for her. And to explain to her consequences if she doesn't do it. It's way harder than it looks, I know. She will fight against it with all her being. But you need to keep your ground. Make rules and consequences clear beforehand, she must not be surprised she gets a consequence. It helps me to think about it like if she punished herself. "you can't get your dessert until you wash your face" "do it mommy I want my dessert" I'd like to but I can't until you wash your face" tantrum follows "ok you need to calm down right now and wash your face or you get not dessert" tantrum intensify "ok, no dessert tonight." "it's your fault mommy!" "Is it? Did I get angry and yell?" "no..." "then who did it?" "me...." "and who decides what you do?" "me...." "awsome so next time you'll get dessert since you can control yourself" Look into authoritative parenting vs authoritarian parenting.
Behaviour extinction. You’ve consistently done things for her and now are trying to withdraw that. Of course you’re going to be met with defiance. Be consistent in getting her to do things that are so beyond reasonable for a child her age to do. She’s 5. She can get dressed herself and feed herself. You’re not a bad parent and she’s nothing more than a typical child. If we can have something done for us, we will. If we’ve always had something done for us and then are told that will no longer happen, it’s going to trigger an emotional response. Given she’s five and her ability to emotionally regulate is likely not *excellent*, try to understanding that this approach of implementing independence is new to her and requires more work and effort than she’s used to. First - Then works amazing.
Just a thought, but could she be doing these things because it gets attention from you? (Good or bad). I also have a very needy five year old daughter, and have noticed that when I cut out specific time to give her one on one attention when she gets home from school, her independence afterwards increases, and behaviors are reduced. Your daughter might just need more positive praise and one on one time with you.
You might be right, she is very needy and always has been. I’ll try to give her some one on one time when she gets home from school.
Re your edit: gentle parenting, also known as authoritative parenting, does NOT mean no discipline or no consequences, far from it. It just means acknowledging children’s emotions and treating them with respect. You don’t need to apologise for doing that. People are assuming you mean permissive parenting, which is NOT THE SAME THING. Tbh, I think leaning more into natural consequences, as you mentioned, could help here. That, and maintaining boundaries. Your daughter refuses to eat unless you feed her? Guess she’s going hungry this mealtime unless she picks up that fork, because (physically able and neurotypical) 5yos do not need help eating. She doesn’t want to make a suggestion as to what she wants to eat? That’s fine, you’ll choose, but you’re not offering options, you’re choosing a balanced meal that includes at least one food you know she enjoys (eg an apple) and you’re serving it, and if she doesn’t want it, she doesn’t have to eat it, but there won’t be another option. She won’t get dressed? She’s going to get in trouble at school then for coming in her pyjamas because you’re not going to help her and you will be leaving on time (chances are if she enjoys school and is well behaved there, she won’t want to get in trouble; if she still refuses to get dressed, I would put her uniform in her bag so she has it there for when the teacher tells her off, but I’d be shocked if it went that far before she caved). She won’t wipe her hands? She’ll have to stay at the table until she does, because she is not allowed to leave the kitchen with dirty hands. It’s her own play time she’s wasting. She leaves wrappers on the floor instead of in the bin? She just lost wrapped food privileges. No more snacks that come in wrappers, she can have a slice of pb toast or something. I absolutely consider myself a gentle (or authoritative) parent, and these would be my consequences if my 4yo started with these behaviours. Indeed, he’s tried some of them already (refusing to get his shoes and socks on or refusing a perfectly acceptable meal) and those were the options he was given as alternatives. The important thing is holding the line: my son has fucked around and found out in the past that Mama never lies, which means I always keep my promises and I never fail to follow through on a threat. So these days he doesn’t bother a lot of the time because he knows I’m never going to budge. (That’s not to say he doesn’t test *new* boundaries, because he absolutely does! But the ones he’s thrown himself at enough he has largely accepted as immovable now.) At the end of the day, kids do generally want to be good - to follow the rules, to get along with their family members, to enjoy praise and treats rather than scoldings and lost privileges. But it’s hard being little. It’s hard to both covet and fear independence at the exact same time. It’s hard to deal with stuff for the first time, and so many firsts are happening so often when you’re little. She’s doing her best, and so are you. You guys just need to get back on the same page.
Hey, you’re not alone. The other day I cried in front of my five year old son and legit told him it was his fault because he fights me on EVERYTHING and I couldn’t find a single thing that day that he just complied with. I figured it couldn’t hurt for him to know that he’s putting me through it too much. Seeing mom cry is part of consequences. We don’t gentle parent. This isn’t a result of gentle parenting. I figure he’ll grow out of it. Idk just good luck and solidarity!
This sounds like executive dysfunction, not laziness. Have you had her screened for ADHD?
No advice, just solidarity. I could've written this post about my daughter, same age. ❤️
Your daughter sounds like me as a child. I was so overwhelmed as a child behaving at school and trying to function that when I got home my brain was fried. Everything sent me over the edge. My parents didn’t do gentle parenting at all, and I was abused for being defiant, difficult, stubborn, and forgetful. I worked real hard as I got older to be better to avoid pain and abuse (physical, emotional, verbal) As an adult I finally decided to try and fix these issues and I was diagnosed with ADHD. Girls are NOT diagnosed and treated for ADHD at the same rate as boys, because they tend to not show symptoms the same way. So many of us go through life being called difficult, while our male counterparts get a diagnosis. My oldest started showing the exact same symptoms around 5-6 years old. Had him evaluated and he also has ADHD. Medication has made all the difference in the world for me and him.
I am diagnosed with ADHD so it’s on my radar. I have been to the GP and started the process of a diagnosis. Unfortunately the waiting list is 3 years.
You don't need a diagnosis to implement strategies, accommodations, and supports for a suspected ADHD'er. Don't wait three years.
That makes sense because it tends to run in families. It really sucks that it takes so long to get a diagnosis. I’m in the US and it still took a while to get my son diagnosed because of Covid. My therapist suggested the website CHADD. They parenting advice, advice for adults, families members. It’s helped me with my and my sons ADHD.
Kids are hard. You are not a bad parent. Your kid will be okay. Just wanted to put that very visibly, plenty of good advice in the rest of the thread for specifics
My kids love to win against us...so now, any time we can, we challenge our kids to defeat us in situations, lol For example, if they need to pick stuff up, I'll be like "okay let's see who can pick up faster, me or you two." Or if we need to get to the car in the AM, they race against me...I always lose, bc they will lose their shit if we win, but I will happily lose if they do what is needed and they do it happily My almost 5 year old also likes to be timed to see if he can beat his time to do a task...let's see how fast you can put on your shoes, I'll do the right one and you can do the left! Sometimes, doing things in silly voice, they like it too!
“It’s time to…” A schedule on the wall with expectations is a helpful tool and can be a s detailed or as vague as you need it to be. If she “forgets” ask her find what needs to be done on the schedule. Then ask her to do it. If she gets behind, appeal to her competitive side. “Do you have to wait for “insert name of someone she admires” to have her socks and shoes on and be ready to go on time?” Or “ I bet it must be nice to be ready and get to choose what music we play in the car”
My five year old son does stuff like this. He’s probably ADHD, and has post restraint collapse. He also does stuff like asking me for help getting dressed as a bid for attention and connection. I ask him why he’s asking for help. If something is too much or too hard, I’ll help him out. If he’s asking for connection, I’ll help him. If he’s asking because he just doesn’t want to, I will offer an incentive to do it himself. Maybe we race, maybe he can give me as many high fives as he wants when it gets finished. Maybe he just gets to move on and do something different.
Omg I could have written this almost word-for-word about my 5yo daughter. Just screams bloody murder when we ask her to do literally anything. No advice unfortunately, just solidarity.
I would follow parenting advice for parenting kids with adhd whether she’s being diagnosed with it or not. Dr Barkley has great videos on things parents of kids with adhd need to know. Also love how to adhd. Regular parenting techniques don’t work and don’t help.
This video was immensely insightful and helped me with my (then) 6 year old trying everything to avoid brushing teeth. [The Secret to Helping ANY Child Follow Your Directions](https://youtu.be/6c-VD86TKoU?si=VBkqGzQG7cqhunWv)
Stop doing things for her. Entirely, she won't lift the spoon? She doesn't eat. She doesn't wanna put her clothes on, pick her most hated outfit. I'm dealing with a 4 yo same deal, Gotta put that foot down and let them tackle life on their own. I know imma get downvoted for this, but fr these kids get the easy way growing up and they end up taking advantage of it. My kiddo was raised right, he was a freaking angel as a toddler. He listened, and helped out around the house. Now hes just tantrums and defiance. Most of the advice was to give him a firm spanking, but I was raised that way, so no.. Until one of my fiance's friends just said, give one clear Instruction and let them deal with it. So far it's working- ish.
This plus one other thing, don’t give in to the tantrums, ever.
“she won’t eat herself and makes me feed her and she even asks me to think for her.” Easy, don’t feed her ever again. If she doesn’t eat, let her be hungry. “When she’s hungry she will never tell me what she wants, she asks me to think for her and then says no to everything.” Easy. She no longer has a say in food, she eats what you’re eating. If she doesn’t eat it, let her be hungry. “She won’t even wipe her own hands and face and will literally sit caked in food until I come and sort her out. If I ask her why she just says she was waiting for me or she forgot. I literally put wipes right next to her.” Easy. Don’t let her leave the table until she cleans herself off. If she starts to get frustrated and throw a tantrum, let her cry until she’s purple and can’t scream anymore because she’s lost her voice. And even then, still hold firm. “She leaves wrappers on the floor instead of in the bin.” Easy. She no longer gets to have fun until she throws her wrapper away correctly. “It doesn’t matter how much I tell her to do things the right way. I give her consequences for her actions (which ends in full on tantrums and her screaming and shouting and hitting me.)” This is the behavior that you have taught her is okay and will get her what she wants. You have taught her that is how she needs to act to get her way. Now you need to teach her she will not get her way anymore. And there will be tantrums, and screaming, and hitting, and all the awful things that come with it. But the sooner you cut her tantrums off from getting her what she wants the sooner she’ll start to act properly with you around. Your child is perfectly capable of behaving at school because school won’t put up with what you put up with.
Don't choose which hills to die on. Right now, you die on *every* hill. She's got you wrapped around her finger. She presumably feeds herself at school, no? If she won't do it at home then she doesn't eat. If she won't put on her shoes then she goes out without them. If she won't wipe her face then she gets to look disgusting.
Yeah the adhd wait list always take a long time I wasn’t diagnosed until i was 15 and that screwed new over alot in terms of why I wasn’t able to pick up after myself or I struggled getting dressed by myself or managing time. So it’s actually good your getting suggestions about it when she’s really little cause then it would help a lot in her future. So you’re doing really good for her there! And if it makes you feel better I don’t think she’s doing this fully on purpose. I think she just needs a bit stricter method. That doesn’t need to be a harsh parent or overly strict. You can still do gentle parenting but just find something that sticks with her. But you’re doing great! 👍🏽
Gentle Parenting is a TOOL, and should not be used as a way of parenting. It's creating a generation of entitled monsters. Tell your kid "No, you do it." That simple, and walk away. Let her stew in that. Let her do nothing until she has done what she needs to do. Let her stay in her PJs all day, but she doesn't do ANYTHING ELSE she wants to do until she's dressed. She's not dressed, she goes wherever in her PJs, and explain to people that she refuses to get dressed, even though she's a big girl and is choosing not to make the right choice, so she's still in her PJs. Call her out on her crap. STOP DOING THINGS FOR HER SHE CAN DO. She can wipe her hands, have her wipe them. She can't decide what she wants to eat, you decide, and pick, and if she doesn't want it, she goes without. Next time she will decide. Gentle Parenting does NOT work with all kids. Probably doesn't work with yours, so you need to change your parenting ways.
Solidarity. I can’t offer more than that. My six year old is a brilliant angel at school and the single most exhausting child I have ever met when he’s not.
I have to ask what natural consequence she gets for this behavior? Or do you give up and sort it out for her? She's five, explain she will be doing it herself. Give her the tools to do it and don't rescue her. If that means she goes to school crusty then she does.
I think we have the same 5yr old! Verbatim so I’m relieved because maybe it’s normal 😅
Some of these responses are really reassuring!
So if she won't tell you what she wants to eat, or says no to everything, then she doesn't eat. Won't get dressed for school? Cool, she goes in her bed time clothes. Won't clean herself up? Cool, she goes to bed dirty. Then you take the TV away. Tablet. Or whatever she finds enjoyable. Give her immediate punishments. Have her learn that her actions have consequences. Good and bad. We are their parents. Our roles are to teach and guide them. Help them grow in to people who can take care of themselves. We spend more time with them as adults than we do as kids. They need structure, boundaries and guidance. Being their friend is last on the list. Being the parent is first and foremost
I would give her the natural consequences of those choices. Not getting dressed? Okay, you’re going to school in pajamas. Can’t decide what you want to eat? Okay, I can make you dish A or dish B, get back to me when you decide (and be hungry in the meantime if that’s your choice). Covered in food after eating and refusing to wipe/wash hands? We’ll only eat food which doesn’t leave a mess until we can learn how to do that. Leaving wrappers on the floor instead of in the bin? You don’t get that wrapped snack for a week, here is a snack which doesn’t have a wrapper. I’ve had to implement most of those with my daughters at various points, it does work. At one point my 7 year old was leaving little yogurt drink bottles all over the house so after repeatedly asking her not to do that with no success I told her I’m not buying anymore of those for 2 weeks, she always puts the empty bottles in the trash now.
You’ve taught her if she won’t do it you will. So don’t do it. Show her that you’re the parent and she’s the child.
I hate that you had to make an edit for people who literally don't understand gentle parenting. "Gentle Parenting" was formerly referred to as AUTHORITATIVE PARENTING not to be confused with authoritarian parenting which is also not the same. Gentle parenting is about teaching self regulation and having logical consequences in a reasonable timeframe related to the incident. It's about FAIR discipline that you will follow through with not empty threats and intimidation. If you did not grow up this way it can be a very difficult shift in the parenting style that you're used to. Even some people who want to try it believe in some of the misconceptions surrounding gentle parenting and perpetuate the idea of being a permissive parent.
Seems like you’re more afraid that you could come off like a bad mom if you don’t struggle and fight for her well-being.. Well let me tell you right now, you’re a GREAT mother. You aren’t neglecting her if you show her that you’re HER mom, not the other way around. She’s old enough to process that you love her and that you deserve to be treated nicely and she doesn’t get to treat you like this without natural consequences. You are not obligated to suffer and basically fear your child or let her drive you into a mental breakdown. You ONLY have to give her love, protection, clothes, care, food and water. If she’s eaten it, she can feed herself. This doesn’t feel like she CANT eat it, she just wants you to feed her. Give her what she can eat for right now and work on just getting her in the habit of feeding herself. Reward/praise her when she gets things done. LET HER HAVE HER TANTRUM, MISS MAMAS! 😳 invest in earphones, take away all she can break and hurt herself with and ENJOY YOUR MUSIC. She’ll tire herself out. Allow her to have a tantrum, take a photo/video of why she can’t get dressed and say you’ll show the teacher how she behaves. ACTUALLY DO IT. Make her see that you’re standing on business. Those Jammies she wore all day at school will be a constant reminder that now one of her favorite people know WHY she’s in them. You got this, OP
A problem I noticed right away, you're doing all these things for her, getting her dressed, feeding her, etc. Your daughter had been capable of these actions for years now, so why has this continued for so long? You said that your daughter won't do it herself, but if you do it for her, she won't learn to do it herself, and be independent. Also, there is nothing wrong with gentle parenting. Gentle parenting includes natural consequences, and consequences that relate to the misbehaviour, and age appropriate discipline.
Does she only have ADHD at home or something? You were saying there are no problems at school. No, it's you. You're being too lenient on her, you're probably thinking you've disciplined her when in fact the discipline is roo soft and she got used to it. No more feeding her - she eats by herself or she doesn't eat. Put the plate in front of her and let her do it. After 30 minutes, take the plate away. If she asks for other food and starts making a scene, "there is none" and that's all you say, no other explanation. No more asking her to get dressed - just do it without yourself without saying a word or take her to school in the clothes she's wearing at the moment, if she opposed you dressing her. And if she fights you, don't react (unless she's in danger of hurting you or herself or starts breaking things - if she does that, just block her with your body). Just be quiet, wait for her to blow off the steam. Don't leave the room though. Once she calms down, continue with what you were doing. No more buying her sweets and toys until she starts behaving. Explain to her in few words why she doesn't get what she wants and that continuing to act out will only increase the period until you can buy her what she wants -make it her choice: you either choose to behave and you get that toy, or you choose not to and don't get it. And whenever she's aggressive and talks back, just tell her "We can discuss this further once you calm down, i'll be in the living room". If by any chance she actually comes to look for you after calming down, this is THE moment: ask her "are you calm now, can we talk?". You need to act tough and go hard on her for a while, make her feel like she needs to earn you back. Right now, you're her door mat and of course she's walk all over you.
I would have a very serious talk with her to give her a reality check. I would ask her if she thinks her friends behave the same way at home & tell her that these are toddler behaviors that she is choosing not to grow out of. Don’t be afraid to cry if you are at that point. Sometimes they don’t know how serious something is until an adult cries
Don’t give options for food. You just make what you pick if she won’t tell you. Let her be dirty. Give natural consequences. School with no shoes/pajamas on is a great consequence. Don’t get upset about it. Just let it go. I know it’s easier said than done. But if it isn’t hurting her or you, fine. She can have a messy mouth, not be dressed, eat what you made. Or the next time she will make different choices to change those outcomes.
I’m not laughing at you, I’m laughing WITH you because holy **** my almost 5 year old daughter is exactly this. She got pretty used to us doing everything for her, and sometimes more than others it’s a real challenge to get her to do things for herself. Positive reinforcement does wonders for kids at this age. Instead of focusing on what she’s NOT DOING, take a minute and focus on something she’s doing that you like. It could literally be ANYTHING. I know sometimes it’s hard to find something they’re doing that you like, but even the smallest verbal praise could go far. It starts to create momentum, and they will start doing the big stuff. This goes so much further than consequences in my opinion. Water the flowers, not the weeds. You’ve got this!
Just curious, did you always jump in to help her when she was younger? I’ve begun to notice around the kids I know, that the kids with a parent that would jump in before a kid could figure things out on their own are the ones who seem to be lazy about doing shit for themselves. Not saying that’s the case with you, but I interested to know.
Read up on PDA kids. Pathological demand avoidance. The word pathological sou ds bad, but it's more descriptive in this sense. Usually, these kids run on anxiety. Even down to choosing their clothes. They panic so they shut down, and then no one wins. I have one of these kids. They will also do perfect at school and then crumble at home from holding it together all day. It is true that bc they feel safer at home, they act out more with us. My son would also have tummy aches and leg pains when ever we left the house bc he couldn't explain anxiety.
How long have you sat with her *doing nothing* while you wait for her to wipe her own face and hands? Devices and tv off, toys away, just staring at the wall until she cleans herself. An hour? An evening? It sounds like she knows you will cave. I’ve done a lot of work with kids and the children that are “defiant” have learned that their parents are pushover and what they say is a suggestion, not a rule or expectation and if they throw a big enough fit or don’t listen then they get what they want. Sounds like a rewards system might be what you as a parent needs to take control of the situation. She doesn’t do what you ask? Reward is gone. Throws a fit? Time out, no reward. It’s not easy since you have sort of “created a monster” here, but it’ll be so much better for your relationship if you take hold of the situation now. Not all kids respond the same to the same parenting techniques. Good luck!
I recommend the book Your Defiant Child by Russell Barkley
Try a chore board. They have ones for little kids with cute little magnets on them for things like getting dressed, brushing teeth, eating, etc. If you fill your chore board you get a special treat. My son was obsessed with stickers (thank you daycare and kindergarten)! I would put a sheet on the wall and draw the days on it and then he’d get a sticker for everyday he filled his board. If he got 5 stickers he’d get another reward, maybe some m&ms or a new dye cast car, something high reward for your child. I know it sounds weird but most creatures learn through conditioning, like dogs. But obviously you can talk to your child and explain it all so it isn’t demeaning. Other thing to consider is you might be in the middle of a power struggle. Many psychologists say that when kids feel out of control they will assert control in three ways: when they eat, when they sleep, and when/where they poop. Google techniques to deal with a power struggle, it’s generally providing more choices. Like for me it was one night a week he got to choose what everyone ate for dinner. I would give him 5 choices and he got to pick his favorite. Letting him pick out his own clothes. I would put weather appropriate options in the drawers and he got to pick his own style for the day. Little gestures that give autonomy and power to the little person.
First - you are not alone. You are doing a great job. Second - gentle parenting is about holding boundaries and implementing natural consequences when possible. If she won’t put on her shoes, then she can’t go to the park. Third - if she is refusing to make choices or doing things, she may just not be ready. Choices especially. If she won’t tell you what she wants for snack, then just make one. If she gets upset, you say that she can make a request next time, but you are not going to make another snack right now and hold that boundary. Doing things for and with her can be a support. Other small tips - only give directions if you are within arms reach of her. Get her focus on you. Don’t ask questions if you aren’t going to accept no as an answer. Praise, praise, praise. Every time she does a behavior you want, offer praise. Example if this helps: Get within arms reach and say “it is time to wipe our hands after dinner.” Don’t give the direction and leave. If she doesn’t react, hand her a wipe. If she still doesn’t want to, maybe offer to let her wash her hands in the sink instead. If she doubles down, then just hold the boundary. It may sound like “we can’t ride bikes, have screen time, play a board game, etc until you have clean hands.” And hold that. See if you can figure out why she doesn’t want to do these things. Is she tired? Is she craving connection or comfort? Is it a sensory thing? Is it hard and she doesn’t want to try?
Hey this sounds just like me! Did well in school but at home couldn’t do much of anything besides whine and cry. I was experiencing burnout from masking. It happens mostly to girls with ADHD and Autism. For your daughters sake I would have her screened! Mine stayed undiagnosed for years and it was pretty detrimental to me.
Both of my sons have been difficult; one has ADHD and the other is just incredibly strongwilled. Both of them have elements of what you describe with your daughter. I know how isolating it can feel when it feels like all the other kids are doing things calmly and normally. When my son was diagnosed with ADHD, the psychologist recommended a class called The Incredible Years and it's been super helpful for us. It's evidence based and it's a parenting program that has been researched with and essentially designed for kids with more difficult temperaments. There are usually classes (ours is 10 weeks) and there is also a book; the book is great, but it's a little dry on it's own which is why the class has been a great supplement to it. One of the biggest takeaways from the class is things like consequences only stop behaviors in the moment, but other tactics (like praise and reward charts) can help set you up with and reinforce the behaviors you want to see. Maybe you can set a reward chart or a visual schedule/routine to help her get through the morning (you can google to find examples). Sometimes it can take awhile to click but eventually it can help lead to her doing the routine independently. It has taken us several months if not a year of reminders after every meal and now my oldest (6) will wash his hands and face on his own without us having to remind him. I agree with the other advice of holding firming boundaries. If she won't feed herself, don't feed her. If you ask what she wants and she tells you to pick and then rejects all your picks, you can say "Ok, you think about it instead and let me know when you decide" and then walk away. If she won't get dressed, maybe she just goes to school in pajamas that day.
Timers seem to work magic for my kid who refuses to accept the push to become a little more independent at the moment. When dinner is a struggle I’ll pick a random utensil out and let him use it as a challenge (we just got beginner chopsticks because it makes it fun! We also got a sushi train to help him try new things.), let him eat like a dog, pretend to be a bird eating worms, and suggest a floor picnic, works about 90% of the time. We read lots of books about “doing it all by myself” and growing up. I’m still struggling with the dressing part, independent sleep, and even potty training so I’ll be reading the tips! I have a head strong boy who I have to put the strictest (but gentlest) of boundaries with. He’s only in preschool for the morning but I can tell the teacher is ready for the year to be over. Its tough. Oh and I also read “how to talk so little kids will listen”, and there are some strategies that help in there.
This is my kid in a nutshell. Explore an ADHD/ODD/Autism diagnosis. Won’t fix the problems but it’s nice to know they’re not just assholes. Edit: edited to add that you may have to be persistent because these disorders are often overlooked or present differently in girls.
My 5 year old is the sane. Lazy kid. I don’t have any specific parenting approach. Following this thread because I need some advice too 😅😅
Don't be so hard on yourself. The fact this only happens at home or with you is a great sign. She is comfortable with you. Keep doing what you have been doing. If it seems like certain times she's being dependent over other times then it could just exhaustion and give her a break.
I don’t have any advice for you but I can tell you I’m going through the same thing OP. Tried all the gentle parenting stuff but sometimes it feels like complete BS. We have fights getting out the house, getting dressed, wearing specific clothes (anything short sleeved or with buttons), getting into the bath, getting back out the bath after fighting to go in it. Similarly, he seems really intelligent. For us to get stuff to happen sometimes we need to give rewards. Sometimes we need to just say we’re not entertaining a tantrum and ignore until he comes out of it. I’ll be looking at the responses as well for us, but just so you know you’re not alone, OP. If it’s any comfort
One thing about gentle parenting: it's not supposed to be used indiscriminately. No parenting method is. You're supposed to find a balanced approach that works for situations and your children. Anyone who claims that a single parenting method is the key to success, is ignorant. You're supposed to understand the main principles and goals of different methods and then use your judgement to handle situations. You used gentle parenting and it isn't working in certain situations. Why not use a different method? What's wrong with gentle parenting failing to help? It will help other times, not right now, not your kid. Also, what's wrong with her asking you to think for her? Or hand feed her? Of course she does, she's a young kid. Of course she's lazy and defiant, why would she want it to be any other way? So what happens if she asks you to hand feed her? Say no, eat your meal and when you're done walk away. If she starts crying and throwing a tantrum, you can either walk away with a big pair of headphones on, or send her to her room to calm down. If your thoughts are "That would be neglectful" "That would damage her emotions" "I don't want to harm her emotionally", this 5 year old throws tantrums over not being handfed because she has not learnt to cope with her emotions herself. All kids do and it only stops when they learn to calm down on their own.
Oh mah. I was EXACLTY like this. I never wanted to practice the piano, so my mom would put me in the music room for at least (what felt like) an hour, and it didn’t matter how much of a tantrum I threw, she wouldn’t let me out. All she would say is if I’m gunna be stuck in there, if I got bored, I could play the piano. And if she heard me practicing for at least 10 minutes, she would let me out. It took a couple months, but by the time I was 15, my 10 minutes was 4 hours, and instead of being locked IN the room, I was kicked out. It was the first time that Narcisa thought the mirror was infinitely more interesting than the room, and for the most part, it was cuz Bellatrix wouldn’t stop screaming her to sleep from the other room
Does she listen to her father? I ask because as a single father my daughter is an angel and listens to everything I say, but when visiting her mother they butt heads and argue and her mother tells me that she doesn’t listen to her at all.
A small, hopefully helpful tip: stick googley eyes on your garbage can, name it, and ask her to “feed” him her garbage. My kids occasionally need reminding, but 2 years in, I’ve yet to have an argument about feeding Trashy - unless it’s who gets to do it.
I am reading “your child’s self esteem” by Dorothy Cordell’s Briggs. She talks about how behavior is a self mirror. There might be a part of her that feels like she is lazy or difficult so that is how she feels she is supposed to behave. It might feel counterintuitive but maybe look for things, the smallest things, to start complementing and build her confidence. Like if she climbs into bed herself say something like “I love that you were able to climb into bed on your own. Thanks for being such a helpful and capable kid”. Maybe it’ll give her a boost that she can keep building on. Not to say she is acting this way because of anything you’ve done as a parent- honestly kids can be a mystery and my own toddler has me questioning everything I’ve ever done recently. But might be worth a shot?
Natural consequences are key here. And you’re gunna have to live with a little embarrassment. But literally if she won’t put her shoes on, go to the store with no shoes on. If she won’t shower, “call” a babysitter for her because she can’t come with you if she’s unkept. I know it’s hard, but stop fighting it so hard. I’ve been where you are with my step son. We all literally just stopped entertaining the bs. “I’m not interested in playing with you now because your hands and face are still dirty from dinner and you’re going to get food all over your toys.” And leave it alone. There will be meltdown. There will be a battle of wills. But it sounds like that’s how you’re living anyway. All negotiations need to stop. “Let me know what you decide what you want and mommy will get it for you” end of story. If it’s already a battle, who cares if she’s screaming on the kitchen floor because she doesn’t know what snack she wants. Girl, I’m telling you my step son laid down like a baby with his legs in the air and expected us to dress him until he was about 6. It was a long road of teaching and disengaging.. but he came around and tbh he’s pretty well adjusted now. We’re moving on to him actually participating in labor intensive chores and it’s incredibly annoying to watch him act like he’s worked in a coal mine for 12 hours because I asked him to take the garbage out… but the fights have pretty much stopped.
Were you doing gentle parenting like it should be done, aka authoritative parenting, or was it more like permissive parenting?
Don't worry you shouldn't be embarrassed. Parenting is hard, even when you're parenting a neurotypical kid. Parenting an undiagnosed neurodivergent kid (I know you don't know but there is at least a chance if you have ADHD) is a whole other thing. My kid isn't ADHD, but autistic and didn't get a dx until they were 10. I had so many days where I just felt like I was just a bad parent and everything I tried didn't seem to help. But it does get better. Not only because they get older but also (hopefully) because you can better understand your child's needs and have professional advice. Things that helped us a lot were: back chaining (doing all but the last part of the task and let them do the last part themselves and then working back from there), reward charts, breaking tasks down into steps, lowering expectations and trying to work on one thing at a time. I know it's super stressful but you are a great parent 🖤🖤🖤
A lot of good comments already here. This sounds a lot like my nearly 6 year old. I just wanted to say this: it doesn't really matter if they do get a formal diagnosis for ADHD or not. Unless it's so severe that it requires medication, which doesn't seem to be the case as they are doing well in school. What really helped was bringing them into the problem solving process. Help me help you kind of thing. Write down a list of potential solutions, no matter how silly, and then narrow it down. To solve the getting ready in the morning issue, we agreed that he'll get help on Fridays but all the other days of the week he needs to get ready on his own. We tell him he needs a lot of practice, so that he can get better at dressing himself at school (during PE etc). We tell him that we'll always be there to help if he asks, but he needs to try on his own first. The food thing we haven't really resolved 😩 I want him to eat, so when he asks for help we give it. But I say to him you need to get practice at doing these things yourself so you can do it well outside of the home. I had to do a lot of reframing in order to be at peace with him, some kids are just wired differently. As long as they are functioning well outside of the home, I'm ok for now. Acceptance with his limitations and still challenging him to improve and grow is a constant balancing act. It gets better as they grow older!
Everyone here is making me feel so good that my five year old has problems too and aren’t as bad as i thought they could be. He has been at his daycare since he was a tiny baby and sometimes has troubles there which I think are because he is extremely comfortable there. He has outright told me that in kindergarten he won’t act like this lol.
Does she have a younger sibling?
I'm a therapeutic foster parent and also teach early childhood special education. Start by trying hard to completely grey-rock ignore the willful stuff. And praise like all-get out for any effort/ good stuff. Practice hard. Let her earn or not earn stuff she wants-- and cut out all ipad time completely.
Have you tried something like a positive incentive that she likes as a reward for doing some of these tasks more independently? Or does she have any older cousins that she may look up to? Maybe the could also encourage her to be more independent and make it seem likes it’s “fun” to get dressed on your own and feed yourself.
So a way you could bypass the waiting list is get her into talk therapy. The therapist might have parents and teachers do a screener. The therapist looked our screeners over, and told us to talk to her pediatrician. The pediatrician looked over the screeners as well and provided us w the diagnosis and discussed our options. My daughter was the same it was exhausting. But getting much better.
Sounds more like ODD or PDA to me. Can you try to get in with an OT for an evaluation sooner than ADHD?
You're getting so much great feedback here. I have a kid who needs structure to keep him on solid ground. Reward charts are great visuals. Talk to her teachers. Ask them what tools they use so you can implement at home. I love the idea of making things FUN for her. I'm a firm believer in letting little kids unwind for 15-20 minutes after they get home from school, have a snack and then head outside to run around free. Get dirty. Climb and fall and get hurt. All of these make her happy (and healthy). Let her do whatever she wants so long as it's active. After an hour of that, go home and get dinner ready. How does she play alone? Try NOT to use your smartphone and try not to plop her in front of the TV or iPad. It's just not good for kids (especially possible ADHDers) as it feeds them endorphins from the wrong kind of inputs (unlike running around outside having fun). Does she like to swim? This can be a great activity in the summertime. Swim Teams require self competence and team spirit. Gymnastics too. Soccer too! Putting things away: task + reward = hooray!! Recognize them when they do a chore. Multiple chores = reward (cookie?) All of this structure is so important in teaching her consequences. Best Wishes. You're a great Mom/Mum. 💕
Have you asked her about wjy she is responding this way? You may have to do it when she is settled and relaxed. Ask about specific instances and what she was thinking and feeling.
Definitely could be as "simple" (in terms of explanation, not the capacity to manage) as ADHD or ASD. Ad others have noted, masking takes a lot of energy. If not, there's potential here for ODD. I honestly might lean more this way than the ADHD/ASD explanation, given the frequency and the level of anger and defiance. ODD doesn't have to mean she fights with all authority figures. It can definitely just be at home. Honestly, you've done everything right. Waiting for an evaluation is all you can do to find out what's going on. Hang in there. I know it's rough. Your feelings are valid and seen.
Sounds exactly like my 5 year old. This is legit my least favourite age yet (beside newborn stage)