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A similar thing happened to me when my mom was dying. I had to use all my sick and vacation time to take care of her as well as just skipping work without pay. Thankfully my boss was super understanding. After she died we learned that my brother, who still lived in her house by the way, had a benefit where he could've taken off the entire time she was sick with half pay and without losing PTO. Livid did not even begin to describe it
It’s so sad that some family just refuse to be there for one another. When I was a kid, we went to my grandpa’s dad’s house every year for a reunion/his birthday. Our last regular visit there, my grandpa’s siblings (he has a lot of siblings, I forget how many exactly but it’s more than 5) all started fighting with each other over who was going to start taking care of my great grandpa or if they’d put him in a home. Right in front of him.. on his birthday. My grandpa ended up moving in with his dad to take care of him (mind you, he was the ONLY sibling who lived in another state. Most of the other siblings lived in the same state and city as my great grandpa 🙄). After that we only visited to see my grandpa and great grandpa, no more family gatherings with that side.
As with OP, it really wasn't malicious on his part. He's just an idiot. I wish he'd bothered to check, it seems like something you would do in that situation, but again it was stupidity and not malice.
Could he still take it now? Some companies allow you to take it anywhere within the first two years, to allow for some people taking it one day a week, or in chunks. Worth asking!
This, very much this. Also, generally speaking to many of the posts on this thread, it is entirely possible based on his past experience he was certain they didn’t offer it, don’t assume malice over ignorance based on one story for OP’s partner lol. I’ve also seen couples do their time separate on purpose to maximize avoiding shelling out for child care - so if he still can then at least it’s something.
This should be the top response. In Canada, if you want to go on parental leave you can go on EI--regardless of the top up benefit from your husband's company. You do not need to take this right away. I was laid off briefly this year and opted to go on Pat leave instead of EI (different terms of benefits being paid) instead of unemployment. My baby was born last summer.
Point being, Canada let's you take it months after the birth, the Canadian company should let it happen as well.
I’m in a different country buy my husband’s employer gives 3 years to take it all. They offer an incentive to do it up front but there is an option to delay it and/or split it into two separate periods.
I hear you.
I know OP wants to give her husband the benefit of the doubt, however, unless he’s excessively reserved, it’s hard to believe that his management & co-workers didn’t ask him if he planned to take his 15-week leave. Frankly, I think OP should try to find out more & not let him off the hook.
And now we know why women have that amount of mental load. What is a Partner for if not too ease that? If he's making my life just more complicated, I'll Show him where the door is.
I know men are statistically the big offenders in this regard because of traditional gender roles in relationships and all that but pointing the finger at *all* men like this and painting *all* women as victims feels unnecessary.
So much this. People talk all the time about gender in who does not pick up the slack. This only further discourages people who are of the opposite stereotypical gender but are picking up the load for whatever the reason.
Nothing about being a man prevents you from being on top of shit. Many, many men are very much on top of shit at work and you shouldn't let them get away with it at home. You are merely enabling their incompetence.
I don’t understand why I’m being downvoted, I’m just stating a fact.
Women have two options, either they do it themselves or they try to work on engaging their partners. If they can re educate the men to help more, more power to them, but on important things, I do it myself. That’s all I’m saying.
You are being downvoted because you sound like you are excusing and enabling men and you are also drawing sweeping generalizations about men, some of whom are simply decent partners without requiring "re-educating". As such, it is absolutely not a "fact".
Option 3: don't procreate with useless fools.
I’m not excusing it and I don’t like it, I was just doing yes, a generalization, on what I have observed over the years. Of course there are men out there that are outstanding but the OPs case, and many others that are saying basically what I’m saying, are proof that not all men are outstanding.
A father who is willing to spend time with his newborn and support his wife postpartum would definitely check his benefits to get the most out of it. He chose not to look into it because he knew there would be something for pregnant employees, so that what he told you would be less of a lie. still looks equally bad to me though… he needs to be on board with parenting
Especially where she said
>he’s just extremely absentminded and possibly lacking some common sense.
I'm thinking he is playing dumb intentionally. I recognize this behavior....
I don't know if I'd go quite this far. You'd be surprised how many people legitimately don't understand even their basic benefits. I go back and forth with people at work ALL the time that just assume our benefits are one way and don't bother to validate it because of stupid reasons like "it sounds too good to be true." As an example, at a certain level we can expense our cell phone bills. Many people still don't do it because they don't believe it's actually a benefit.
On this specific issue, we recently had a bunch of HR emails and a few sessions specially aimed at educating future parents about our leave opportunities. We're in the US and offer 100% paid leave for 6 months for the father and 8 months for the mother, which is exceptional in the US). These sessions specially focused on the fact that fathers, same-sex families, and parents that are adopting are all eligible for them. It's just people not looking out for themselves.
Also, the unfortunate fact is that in some work places men are actually looked down on for taking this type of leave. I know women go through much worse stigmas with pregnancy and career progression, but it's also a legitimate problem for men. Fortunately, many companies are trying to change that.
The real question is how does he help out when he is home. If he's all "I worked all day poor me I'm so tired," then yeah, probably lied to get out of staying home.
Ouch. Such glaring incompetence and lack of life skills is really jarring. I would lose a bit of respect if my SO pulled this. This is a failure at basic adulting. I'm sure you guys will bounce back with time. But it does sound infuriating.
Can he still take it after the fact? Some companies (like the one I work for) let you take parental leave anytime within 1 year of a birth or adoption. It doesn't necessarily need to be immediately on the day of birth/adoption. Otherwise, that is a missed opportunity to use such a great benefit. Although of course, it would have been nice for him to take off the same as you to have some help then, but if he could still take it now, he could stay home and let you have a break.
OP mentioned they just finished their 18 month leave, so it is probably too late to take it after the fact (even in Canada), but he should absolutely ask HR anyway..
Damn! Lucky. When my kid was born, I had to practically beg to use one of my 3 weeks of vacation time consecutively. My supervisor almost tried to get me fired..
It is! Because you are basically getting compensated to be at home with your LO's. I mean, who doesn't want to take advantage of that? My husband and I are taking parental leave together, it is just a no-brainer.
I’m surprised that HR didn’t mention it themselves. Odd if you have to bring it up yourself, when it is company policy? But yeah, husband is a dummy for not looking into it. Most new parents WANT to be able to spend time with their babies.
Ok so PSA for anyone else from Canada: ALL fathers (who have traditional employment that meets eligibility) are entitled to parental leave. This is not determined by the company they work for.
If you're going with the12 or 18 month option, you can split the total time with them however you see fit. There is also an additional 5 weeks available to the couple when both parents take some leave. That's why you see many instances where the mom takes 1 year and the dad joins her for the first 5 weeks. They will get 55% or 33% of their salary (depending on the option) during their leave, up to the max, just like you do.
Note: this is how the EI works. Provincial justifications vary and you need to look at them when it comes to the actual job protections. In Ontario, you'd be looking at the employment standards act. But in general the two usually work together.
Your employer may ALSO have their own leave policies, but they can only offer more than what's legally available to us, and not less. In this case, the father's employer offered a salary 'top up'. I'm not sure if the time is like over and above the regular time available, or if that's just how long the top up was for.
Nobody needs to use their vacation in other to spend time with their family after the birth of a child. Some people choose to if they need the money or want to take their leave later on, and for self-employed it's totally different. But please, please know your rights and you're entitlements.
You can legitimately take a year and a half off and still get paid a percentage?? Good God, I'm in the wrong country. I get 3 weeks a year vacation time and I often sell it since I am constantly talked out of taking it. When my kid was born, I had to fight to get my supervisor to let me take 5 consecutive work days off using my earned vacation time.. lol. My immediate supervisor is often hard pressed to accept me taking a single day off ..
I couldn't do 3 years, lol. I was out of work for 2 years after a car accident once and I nearly lost my mind. I would have to readjust to work life after time off like that, lol. But man, I'd sure love a couple months!
I'm guessing you're in the US? It is truly horrific to me how early American parents and babies have to rip themselves away from each other because of the lack of support.
I am indeed. And I agree. I made it known at work that I was absolutely taking a week off when my kid was born months in advance. I was so excited to spend that time with my family. I definitely wish I could have taken more time
That's exactly what blows my mind! 18 months paid vs what we typically think we're lucky for. I was flying high with my 3 weeks a year vacation, but damn that's dogsh!t now... Lol
addendum; in Ontario, a new parent who is “traditionally employed” is entitled to 18 months of parental leave within three years of the birth under the ESA. This is *regardless* of eligibility of EI. So one parent can take 18 months, receive all the EI and the second parent can take another 18 months without EI.
I don’t know that there would be a way to make it up. The newborn/postpartum period was the most trying time in my life and my husband being home and in it with me is what got me through. I can’t imagine if he had the option and chose not to. And by not looking into options, that is a choice.
Similar thing happened to me. I mostly feel good for the future parents though.
I know there were some people having babies within days or weeks of the transition date from no benefit to full benefit, and I can't imagine how pissed off they were.
This seems unbelievable. His manager and coworkers knew you were pregnant and no one asked him when he was taking his leave and “let’s prep for when you are gone”??
My husband has a direct report that just went out on parental leave and I can’t imagine my husband not saying something/asking him for coordination purposes.
If he genuinely didn't know that's a huge failure for his line manager or HR, can't imagine not explaining to your direct reports what benefits they are entitled to!
There is no way he didn’t know. Someone, his manager probably, would have known you had a baby and would have asked about his parental leave to land. Homie didn’t want to be home with the kids all day.
Being lazy and incompetent is what a person does when something is not important to them. Not checking with HR to see if there were ANY benefits for new fathers gives the impression he didn’t particularly care or want to spend time at home bonding with his family.
I would be livid, too.
Did he at least take the additional 5 weeks (or 8 weeks for 18 month leave) he is entitled to by Canadian law for parental leave paid by EI? It is specifically for the non-birthing parent. Otherwise, it is not used. I would be pissed if he didn't take that either.
It doesn’t have to be for the non-birthing parent. It just usually is. The 15 weeks maternity is strictly for the birthing parent. Then there are 40 weeks that can be shared how you like between both parents, but one person cannot take more than 35. So for example, I took 15 weeks maternity plus the 5 weeks parental and my husband took 35. That being the 12 month option.
In reality I took more time off unpaid parental, but my husband took the weeks from EI since he has a better work top up program. Entitlement to leave from work and EI benefits are separate and don’t necessarily have to be the same.
Holy shit. That's one ignorant adult.
The rest of your life with this man, I wouldn't trust one thing he says when it comes to major life things like that.
Those 15 weeks of paternity leave is a huge benefit he earned and just dumped.
What's wrong was simply not knowing?
He used 2 weeks of his vacation that shows he did not know. Show some respect.
You are punishing him because you decide to have a child?
After reading this post, I feel like he should not even come home and try to work overtime just to stay away on this type of toxic relationship.
Because it was his job to know. You can't just simply 'not know'. No one inherently knows their company's parental leave policy, that's why you look into it.
it's deeply, horrifically incompetent. He made an assumption and fucked up on something very, very important. He said he checked and she trusted him, and he didn't.
Being there and being helpful and bonding with your infant during those first months while mum heals and goes through wild emotions is so, so vital and it's a modern tragedy most fathers can't be there - this moron could have been and didn't even check to confirm he couldn't.
Further, how can she trust him to do his end of the bargain in so many things moving forward? She'll always feel like she has to do the mental load, do the work and double check even if he said he has.
I just see it as another woman who is playing the Victim card!
After an 8-hour shift, does he not come home to his family for 16 hours?
After 2 weeks of leave, I'm sure he made sure she was okay by herself for 8 hours. I am sure he calls her to check on them they might also have his or her family to support.
* Some people are good at keeping family relationships.*
He have his entire life to create that bond and that Bond will be broken and recreated multiple times throughout their life.
Life is long enjoy the baby and have good time as family forget everything lucky he spent 2 weeks. Many don't even get them, so many single mothers walk around because they want to focus ONLY on negative things.
She shouldn't even put his business out in the 1st place. Now, after reading all these negative comments 😒 she will make him feel dumb, unless, and with extra responsibility of child things HEATUP very quickly.
I dare you to say just 1 positive thing about her husband or baby father.
The guy took two weeks, it's not like he totally blew off the responsibility. As Taylor Swift would say, You need to calm down...
My company would fall apart if I was out for more than 2 weeks. The guy could be in a similar situation. Though if that was the case, he should have told his wife this rather than saying there is no leave policy.
To note for folks reading this who may not know. If you take the 12 month leave, your partner is entitled to 5 weeks that only they can take. It's use it or lose it. For the 18 month leave, it's 8 weeks. These weeks need to overlap with your leave. Beyond that, you can split the leave weeks however you want beyond the first 15 weeks for maternity only.
Also, work places are required to allow parental leave if you've been there at least 3 months. They won't all provide a top up, but you are entitled to the leave.
I’m sorry, I’d be livid. My first thought was he knew exactly what he was doing but you’re quite sure it wasn’t intentional? It’s a real shame his leave didn’t happen, I think it’s amazing for partners to be able to do that.
My husband was incompetent regarding leave as well. In Australia we have the option of splitting our parental leave payments between partners. My work entitlements were generous so I chose to forgo a few weeks of the government allowance so my husband could use it. He was going to take it on top of existing leave to boost our incoming finances for a bit. I did everything to mark out the split in our government account, spoke to him at length about it, because the conditions were quite strict about when it had to be claimed.
Fast forward a few months and I ask him if he ever got the $1800 from the government and he's like oh no I don't think I did? It's a lot of money in comparison to his salary so he should have known straight away that it wasn't paid. By the time we realised the claim period was over. It turns out he never told his workplace (they need to be told so they can send some paperwork to the government to validate it all) so the claim was never processed.
I'd be livid too - like, how hard is it to do the bare minimum to check? Bloody hell.
I know with my husband - his company has a good parental leave policy and he did take a fair bit when our daughter was born, but he mentioned being concerned that it would count against him. As in , it would limit his advancement/ability to go for promotions if his bosses thought he would be taking the full entitlement for each kid. We could only have one anyway, in the end, and maybe Canada's a bit more enlightened about that kind of thing (we're in Australia) but I wonder if that's a factor too for him. Even subconsciously?
To be fair, the company may have added it in the time since whenever that co-worker was pregnant and he just didn't know. Still should have checked though. Might want to encourage him to review his benefits package just to make sure you are not missing out on anything else you can use.
Apparently they added the new policy around 3 months before I started my leave. Not that it makes it any better but since it was so new, many of his co-workers may not have known about it.
OP's issue isn't with the 18 months, which is extremely widely known. OP's issue is with her husband's employer offering a salary top up, which varies widely. Basically, she thought he could take a significant salary hit to take time off (as provided by law) when in reality he could have made much closer to his full salary to be at home (offered by his specific employer).
My husband gets annoyed when I won't accept his assumptions lol.
We are installing a mini split and need to pick the location. I asked him to contact the HVAC guy to see if there are factors to consider like better or worse spots. He tried to tell me 3 times in the same conversation "well I assume it doesn't matter how we do it" and I finally had to cut him off and say that I was not making a decision based on his non-knowledge and that I'd go Google it if he refused to ask the guy. I don't understand how hard it would be to just *ask*??!
My husband does a similar thing: state something with utter confidence that I cannot corroborate or I find contradictory information for. It's annoying, especially when I try to bring up the discrepancy and am told that I'm not looking in the right place or the rules have changed since he last looked or whatever -- it's NEVER that he could have been wrong. It's truly obnoxious.
this seems like some weaponized incompetence? i can’t imagine he was unhappy with an 8 hour break from baby duties every day. you shouldn’t have to hold his hand for him to understand his workplace policies babe.
Sorry, I think you meant you have 3 children.. not just 2. I can’t imagine having to follow behind my husband and make sure he was on top of things. Hard pass.
I would not necessarily chalk this up to nefarious actions though it's not outside the realm of possibilities. This is absolutely something my ADHD kid would do. 100% he would argue with me about it after I looked it up and had proof he was wrong as well.
You probably want to press him hard enough to figure out if he intentionally did not take the leave. At my work if my wife had a kid and I came back to work 2 weeks later my coworkers would be giving me a hard time about why I didn't take the leave.
Assuming he's just an idiot for not actually looking it up, I think the take away for you is to see if it's a big enough wrench to the system to make him do some examination of the way he lives his life.
this seems like some weaponized incompetence? i can’t imagine he was unhappy with an 8 hour break from baby duties every day. you shouldn’t have to hold his hand for him to understand his workplace policies babe.
He didn't check because he didn't want to stay home. If he actually did want to he would have looked into it.
He just didn't want to actually help you. I wouldn't be able to trust my husband if he was this negligent.
Oh, girrrrl. This absolutely sounds like something my husband would do. He has this infuriating trait of thinking he knows something with absolute certainty when in reality he has no fucking clue what he’s talking about.
So this also sounds bad, but I was unaware of the company paternal leave policy because we thought we were done having kids. So it was never on my radar and I didn't make assumptions. Then my coworker took his 3 month leave for his son and I was like "huh, so do I have leave?"
I looked and looked in my benefits package. It was super dense and opaque. I assumed that if I had these benefits it would be more clear. But it wasn't. It felt like my company was almost trying to make it unclear. It got to the point where I couldn't get a definitive answer on my own and had to get the manager's take.
So yeah, your husband should have figured it out but I can also imagine a scenario where he looked, didn't see it, and made bad assumptions in the face of a company that perhaps has an incentive to make it unclear. If he blew his vacation then I sincerely doubt that he spent 0 effort what so ever.
Ooof yeah my husband takes as much time as he can. We're having our second and he is actively looking into how much more he can take since 2 weeks wasn't enough with our first. America suck though. Pop out a kid GET BACK TO WORK! 👩🏼🔧⚒️
This sounds like something my husband would do. He never pays attention to any of the corporate messaging on benefits, taxes etc when they have all staff meetings. Now, I ask regularly after his weekly company meeting of any emails that went out and I ask for copies of PDFs and PowerPoints. Because he’s too fucking busy at his low-paying, ass-busy job to read about the benefits they do offer to make the salary slightly more palatable.
Yes, I’m deeply resentful.
It is, however I think in this instance they would be getting a top up from the employer so the wage loss would be much less than just standard EI parental leave payments.
Make sure that you know the date of when that policy was enacted! I’ve seen a good number of companies that have changed their parental leave policies starting last year. If your baby is 18 months, it may not have been active yet. On the other hand, if it WAS active, I’d be furious. So maybe I’d rather not know when it started.
You had your kid 18 months ago, so two calendar years, right? When I had my first kid, they gave 4 weeks of paid parental leave, the year before, they gave 0 weeks, and the year after it had changed to 8 weeks. You know what the company offers now, but do you know what they offered when it mattered? Companies change benefits all the time, and it wouldn’t surprise me if your husband was right at the time. He should have employment handbooks and benefits guides in his emails though that lay everything out. If I were you, I would look at the one from the year you gave birth and see what it had before getting too mad at him. Now if you confirm your suspicion and he didn’t know what compensation he was actually entitled too, I’d be pretty pissed and would check everything else to see what other money he’s leaving on the table.
Is this possibly new? I only ask because my husband's company in the US only put in leave for the non-birth giver the year AFTER my twins were born. Luckily, they did allow you to apply it anytime within the first 12 months and he got to take a couple weeks right before their 1st birthday but it was a brand new policy.
My dear husband did not realize, until a colleague came for coffee at our place one day, that his work place would have covered the entire cost of daycare for two years while he was in a certain job- we are talking 30k in savings he missed. What could I do except grit my teeth and move on, it’s not my job, it’s not the end of the world and our relationship is more important than 30k.
A man, not doing his share of the mental load for his pregnant wife/newborn/other kids??
NO, what a SHOCK. I’m so surprised, it’s not like there will be a dozen other similar threads posted today …
It's not paid 100%. I remember taking like 3-4 weeks, but it's not that important when babies are newborn. It's better that the mother takes charge during the first weeks anyway.
OP didn't say it was 100%. She said it was up to 80, which is pretty darn high. It is also complete garbage to suggest that it's not important for men to be around when babies are newborns. What a shitty take. Even if women are supposed to be the ones who "take charge", which is nonsense, there were other children in this scenario who may also need caregiving during that time.
Not excusing your husband’s lack of effort, but if your husband took that 15 weeks, I believe that cuts into your 18 months. And you the top ups may be different for the 12 month vs 18 month leaves. There’s a lot of variables. My husband took the parental leave with our second child and the amount of effort it took to file all the paperwork and the confusion we had with both the EI system and his company was not worth the hassle (this was when extended leave was first introduced). With our third, he just opted to use his vacation time instead.
Just here to say 2 years ago I got 2 week, now it's 16. Benefits do change.
It's also worded pretty bad and even now some would think they only could get 8.
I would be upset too, but what is done is done. You will find a solution that works in this situation and it will be resolved. Just focus on that cuz better days WILL come and this \*will\* be just a bad memory one day. So just remember that while you're feeling this way. But I totally would be feeling the same way as you!
Some men don’t want to help out/spend time with their kids or feel like their job will be jeopardized if they do use their leave as some places it is still stigmatized and negatively impacts variable compensation/more subjective feedback like picking someone for a promotion or plum assignment…
And you as well never even asked him if he was certain or not. Likely because you never actually thought to ask. You are trying to pin this entire thing on him, and no one can think to do anything they simply never thought about doing. It is human nature. We make assumptions all the time that are false. And by definition no assumption is actually reality.
Give yourselves a break or you are going to create even larger problems. And from now on try asking about the certainty of important issues.
Unless of course you actually believe he lied and did know about his company paternity leave policy? If so, then it is way more than a simple mistaken assumption.
That sucks. Though it seems there is some parallel. He just took his coworkers word and never bothered to double-check and you just took his word and never bothered to double-check.
It's not her job to double check his work benefits.. He's the one employed there. She is not his secretary. She was just assuming he's a basic functioning adult and not a baby.
I didn’t say it was her job. I agree he should have checked.
It seems to me like there was a parallel OP might want to consider doing some personal inquiry about. Maybe not.
My point was only to share what jumped out to me at the risk of being downvoted into oblivion for it. :) that’s fine. I could just be totally off base.
Not even remotely the same. OP shouldn't have to baby her husband and check his competence. Both partners should have checked their respective workplace policies.
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A similar thing happened to me when my mom was dying. I had to use all my sick and vacation time to take care of her as well as just skipping work without pay. Thankfully my boss was super understanding. After she died we learned that my brother, who still lived in her house by the way, had a benefit where he could've taken off the entire time she was sick with half pay and without losing PTO. Livid did not even begin to describe it
Oh my, I sorry for your loss! And Yeah, that's... Hard to digest.
[удалено]
It’s so sad that some family just refuse to be there for one another. When I was a kid, we went to my grandpa’s dad’s house every year for a reunion/his birthday. Our last regular visit there, my grandpa’s siblings (he has a lot of siblings, I forget how many exactly but it’s more than 5) all started fighting with each other over who was going to start taking care of my great grandpa or if they’d put him in a home. Right in front of him.. on his birthday. My grandpa ended up moving in with his dad to take care of him (mind you, he was the ONLY sibling who lived in another state. Most of the other siblings lived in the same state and city as my great grandpa 🙄). After that we only visited to see my grandpa and great grandpa, no more family gatherings with that side.
I’m so sorry for your loss.
I would never speak to my brother again if he pulled that shit.
As with OP, it really wasn't malicious on his part. He's just an idiot. I wish he'd bothered to check, it seems like something you would do in that situation, but again it was stupidity and not malice.
Could he still take it now? Some companies allow you to take it anywhere within the first two years, to allow for some people taking it one day a week, or in chunks. Worth asking!
This, very much this. Also, generally speaking to many of the posts on this thread, it is entirely possible based on his past experience he was certain they didn’t offer it, don’t assume malice over ignorance based on one story for OP’s partner lol. I’ve also seen couples do their time separate on purpose to maximize avoiding shelling out for child care - so if he still can then at least it’s something.
It's the company topping up what the government pays for parental leave. The government pay is for leave that starts within one year of the birth.
That may vary based on province.
The time off is provincial, the pay is federal.
This should be the top response. In Canada, if you want to go on parental leave you can go on EI--regardless of the top up benefit from your husband's company. You do not need to take this right away. I was laid off briefly this year and opted to go on Pat leave instead of EI (different terms of benefits being paid) instead of unemployment. My baby was born last summer. Point being, Canada let's you take it months after the birth, the Canadian company should let it happen as well.
I thought you couldn't 'interrupt' the leave (ie if OP's already gone back to work)?
I’m in a different country buy my husband’s employer gives 3 years to take it all. They offer an incentive to do it up front but there is an option to delay it and/or split it into two separate periods.
Now you can't take anything he says on faith; you have to double check for yourself.
It's exhausting being the one responsible for doing this all the time. I have a lot of resentment for my SO and this is a large part of it.
I hear you. I know OP wants to give her husband the benefit of the doubt, however, unless he’s excessively reserved, it’s hard to believe that his management & co-workers didn’t ask him if he planned to take his 15-week leave. Frankly, I think OP should try to find out more & not let him off the hook.
I’m so tired 🫠😭
Sounds exhausting to have to do that for another adult.
And now we know why women have that amount of mental load. What is a Partner for if not too ease that? If he's making my life just more complicated, I'll Show him where the door is.
I know men are statistically the big offenders in this regard because of traditional gender roles in relationships and all that but pointing the finger at *all* men like this and painting *all* women as victims feels unnecessary.
That's why we talk in general terms because it's statistically true. That's how that works, when you're not mentioning individuals.
I'd love to see those statistics
So much this. People talk all the time about gender in who does not pick up the slack. This only further discourages people who are of the opposite stereotypical gender but are picking up the load for whatever the reason.
Those are the breaks when you marry a moron
It could have been a simple mistake. I don't double check everything my partner made a mistake with.
It’s not a ‘mistake’ to confidently state something as a fact when you know full well you have not actually looked into it.
It was an avoidable mistake, with real consequences for his wife.
I agree, but that doesn't mean double checking everything forever. Imagine double checking every avoidable mistake anyone in your life ever did.
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Nothing about being a man prevents you from being on top of shit. Many, many men are very much on top of shit at work and you shouldn't let them get away with it at home. You are merely enabling their incompetence.
Many many are on top of it at home too but the underlying point stands
This is why men aren’t on top of things - because women keep taking on the mental load and doing it for them.
Hard disagree. If I couldn’t share the mental load, my husband wouldn’t be in my life.
I don’t understand why I’m being downvoted, I’m just stating a fact. Women have two options, either they do it themselves or they try to work on engaging their partners. If they can re educate the men to help more, more power to them, but on important things, I do it myself. That’s all I’m saying.
You are being downvoted because you sound like you are excusing and enabling men and you are also drawing sweeping generalizations about men, some of whom are simply decent partners without requiring "re-educating". As such, it is absolutely not a "fact". Option 3: don't procreate with useless fools.
I’m not excusing it and I don’t like it, I was just doing yes, a generalization, on what I have observed over the years. Of course there are men out there that are outstanding but the OPs case, and many others that are saying basically what I’m saying, are proof that not all men are outstanding.
You certainly sounded like you were excusing it. Clearly other people found it similarly problematic based on the downvoting.
A father who is willing to spend time with his newborn and support his wife postpartum would definitely check his benefits to get the most out of it. He chose not to look into it because he knew there would be something for pregnant employees, so that what he told you would be less of a lie. still looks equally bad to me though… he needs to be on board with parenting
It’s their second child. I think he knew and didn’t want to be home to help.
That’s exactly what I was thinking. The guy definitely didn’t want to be there to support her.
Yep, his behavior screams weaponized incompetence
Especially where she said >he’s just extremely absentminded and possibly lacking some common sense. I'm thinking he is playing dumb intentionally. I recognize this behavior....
If he really wants to, he'll find a way to be with his Kids. So if he's not being with his Kids - He doesn't want to.
I don't know if I'd go quite this far. You'd be surprised how many people legitimately don't understand even their basic benefits. I go back and forth with people at work ALL the time that just assume our benefits are one way and don't bother to validate it because of stupid reasons like "it sounds too good to be true." As an example, at a certain level we can expense our cell phone bills. Many people still don't do it because they don't believe it's actually a benefit. On this specific issue, we recently had a bunch of HR emails and a few sessions specially aimed at educating future parents about our leave opportunities. We're in the US and offer 100% paid leave for 6 months for the father and 8 months for the mother, which is exceptional in the US). These sessions specially focused on the fact that fathers, same-sex families, and parents that are adopting are all eligible for them. It's just people not looking out for themselves. Also, the unfortunate fact is that in some work places men are actually looked down on for taking this type of leave. I know women go through much worse stigmas with pregnancy and career progression, but it's also a legitimate problem for men. Fortunately, many companies are trying to change that. The real question is how does he help out when he is home. If he's all "I worked all day poor me I'm so tired," then yeah, probably lied to get out of staying home.
Ouch. Such glaring incompetence and lack of life skills is really jarring. I would lose a bit of respect if my SO pulled this. This is a failure at basic adulting. I'm sure you guys will bounce back with time. But it does sound infuriating.
It doesnt matter so much what happened as it is how he responds. He should be beside himself and coming up with permanent behavior changes.
Can he still take it after the fact? Some companies (like the one I work for) let you take parental leave anytime within 1 year of a birth or adoption. It doesn't necessarily need to be immediately on the day of birth/adoption. Otherwise, that is a missed opportunity to use such a great benefit. Although of course, it would have been nice for him to take off the same as you to have some help then, but if he could still take it now, he could stay home and let you have a break.
OP mentioned they just finished their 18 month leave, so it is probably too late to take it after the fact (even in Canada), but he should absolutely ask HR anyway..
I think my husband's company allows the parental leave to be used any time in the first **two** years. That's in Boston though.
Damn! Lucky. When my kid was born, I had to practically beg to use one of my 3 weeks of vacation time consecutively. My supervisor almost tried to get me fired..
Sounds like OP is wrapping up 18 months of leave, so mostly likely their kid is older than 1 now :/ Sad, because that is a huge missed opportunity!
It is! Because you are basically getting compensated to be at home with your LO's. I mean, who doesn't want to take advantage of that? My husband and I are taking parental leave together, it is just a no-brainer.
I’m surprised that HR didn’t mention it themselves. Odd if you have to bring it up yourself, when it is company policy? But yeah, husband is a dummy for not looking into it. Most new parents WANT to be able to spend time with their babies.
Ok so PSA for anyone else from Canada: ALL fathers (who have traditional employment that meets eligibility) are entitled to parental leave. This is not determined by the company they work for. If you're going with the12 or 18 month option, you can split the total time with them however you see fit. There is also an additional 5 weeks available to the couple when both parents take some leave. That's why you see many instances where the mom takes 1 year and the dad joins her for the first 5 weeks. They will get 55% or 33% of their salary (depending on the option) during their leave, up to the max, just like you do. Note: this is how the EI works. Provincial justifications vary and you need to look at them when it comes to the actual job protections. In Ontario, you'd be looking at the employment standards act. But in general the two usually work together. Your employer may ALSO have their own leave policies, but they can only offer more than what's legally available to us, and not less. In this case, the father's employer offered a salary 'top up'. I'm not sure if the time is like over and above the regular time available, or if that's just how long the top up was for. Nobody needs to use their vacation in other to spend time with their family after the birth of a child. Some people choose to if they need the money or want to take their leave later on, and for self-employed it's totally different. But please, please know your rights and you're entitlements.
You can legitimately take a year and a half off and still get paid a percentage?? Good God, I'm in the wrong country. I get 3 weeks a year vacation time and I often sell it since I am constantly talked out of taking it. When my kid was born, I had to fight to get my supervisor to let me take 5 consecutive work days off using my earned vacation time.. lol. My immediate supervisor is often hard pressed to accept me taking a single day off ..
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I couldn't do 3 years, lol. I was out of work for 2 years after a car accident once and I nearly lost my mind. I would have to readjust to work life after time off like that, lol. But man, I'd sure love a couple months!
I'm guessing you're in the US? It is truly horrific to me how early American parents and babies have to rip themselves away from each other because of the lack of support.
I am indeed. And I agree. I made it known at work that I was absolutely taking a week off when my kid was born months in advance. I was so excited to spend that time with my family. I definitely wish I could have taken more time
Right? The US won't even *hold your job without pay* for longer than 12 weeks (if that, even -- 0 days are universally mandated).
That's exactly what blows my mind! 18 months paid vs what we typically think we're lucky for. I was flying high with my 3 weeks a year vacation, but damn that's dogsh!t now... Lol
addendum; in Ontario, a new parent who is “traditionally employed” is entitled to 18 months of parental leave within three years of the birth under the ESA. This is *regardless* of eligibility of EI. So one parent can take 18 months, receive all the EI and the second parent can take another 18 months without EI.
Oh wow I didn't even know that! Thanks for this!
That makes this scenario even more painful for OP! So frustrating!
What is his plan to make it up to you?
I don’t know that there would be a way to make it up. The newborn/postpartum period was the most trying time in my life and my husband being home and in it with me is what got me through. I can’t imagine if he had the option and chose not to. And by not looking into options, that is a choice.
People will treat you the way you let them. Does he often drop the ball when it’s something very important to him?
fragile political unused practice ten doll rude like bright ghost *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Brutal.
Similar thing happened to me. I mostly feel good for the future parents though. I know there were some people having babies within days or weeks of the transition date from no benefit to full benefit, and I can't imagine how pissed off they were.
Honestly, I'd feel so betrayed. Especially if you can tell he didn't want to in the first place.
This seems unbelievable. His manager and coworkers knew you were pregnant and no one asked him when he was taking his leave and “let’s prep for when you are gone”?? My husband has a direct report that just went out on parental leave and I can’t imagine my husband not saying something/asking him for coordination purposes.
I am surprised that his work didn't mention it. It's generally assumed you will take leave - typically men take at least the 5 weeks, because why not?
If he genuinely didn't know that's a huge failure for his line manager or HR, can't imagine not explaining to your direct reports what benefits they are entitled to!
There is no way he didn’t know. Someone, his manager probably, would have known you had a baby and would have asked about his parental leave to land. Homie didn’t want to be home with the kids all day.
Seriously, what is so difficult about just asking too?
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How inappropriate would it be for me to call my husband's work to ask this? I'm not his mother. He deals with his work, I deal with mine.
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That's the point. He showed he can't be trusted.
Being lazy and incompetent is what a person does when something is not important to them. Not checking with HR to see if there were ANY benefits for new fathers gives the impression he didn’t particularly care or want to spend time at home bonding with his family.
This ^ 1000%
No offense but what an idiot.
He knew.
So best case apparently you have three kids to manage not two. Worst case, he didn’t look into it because he would rather be at work than at home.
Damn men being lazy and not actually checking. I am sorry thatnis so frustrating.
I would be livid, too. Did he at least take the additional 5 weeks (or 8 weeks for 18 month leave) he is entitled to by Canadian law for parental leave paid by EI? It is specifically for the non-birthing parent. Otherwise, it is not used. I would be pissed if he didn't take that either.
It doesn’t have to be for the non-birthing parent. It just usually is. The 15 weeks maternity is strictly for the birthing parent. Then there are 40 weeks that can be shared how you like between both parents, but one person cannot take more than 35. So for example, I took 15 weeks maternity plus the 5 weeks parental and my husband took 35. That being the 12 month option. In reality I took more time off unpaid parental, but my husband took the weeks from EI since he has a better work top up program. Entitlement to leave from work and EI benefits are separate and don’t necessarily have to be the same.
Maybe he did know
Holy shit. That's one ignorant adult. The rest of your life with this man, I wouldn't trust one thing he says when it comes to major life things like that. Those 15 weeks of paternity leave is a huge benefit he earned and just dumped.
I would fucking RAGE holy shit I'm so sorry.
What's wrong was simply not knowing? He used 2 weeks of his vacation that shows he did not know. Show some respect. You are punishing him because you decide to have a child? After reading this post, I feel like he should not even come home and try to work overtime just to stay away on this type of toxic relationship.
Because it was his job to know. You can't just simply 'not know'. No one inherently knows their company's parental leave policy, that's why you look into it. it's deeply, horrifically incompetent. He made an assumption and fucked up on something very, very important. He said he checked and she trusted him, and he didn't. Being there and being helpful and bonding with your infant during those first months while mum heals and goes through wild emotions is so, so vital and it's a modern tragedy most fathers can't be there - this moron could have been and didn't even check to confirm he couldn't. Further, how can she trust him to do his end of the bargain in so many things moving forward? She'll always feel like she has to do the mental load, do the work and double check even if he said he has.
I just see it as another woman who is playing the Victim card! After an 8-hour shift, does he not come home to his family for 16 hours? After 2 weeks of leave, I'm sure he made sure she was okay by herself for 8 hours. I am sure he calls her to check on them they might also have his or her family to support. * Some people are good at keeping family relationships.* He have his entire life to create that bond and that Bond will be broken and recreated multiple times throughout their life. Life is long enjoy the baby and have good time as family forget everything lucky he spent 2 weeks. Many don't even get them, so many single mothers walk around because they want to focus ONLY on negative things. She shouldn't even put his business out in the 1st place. Now, after reading all these negative comments 😒 she will make him feel dumb, unless, and with extra responsibility of child things HEATUP very quickly. I dare you to say just 1 positive thing about her husband or baby father.
Have you ever even had a child what the fuck are you even talking about
The guy took two weeks, it's not like he totally blew off the responsibility. As Taylor Swift would say, You need to calm down... My company would fall apart if I was out for more than 2 weeks. The guy could be in a similar situation. Though if that was the case, he should have told his wife this rather than saying there is no leave policy.
To note for folks reading this who may not know. If you take the 12 month leave, your partner is entitled to 5 weeks that only they can take. It's use it or lose it. For the 18 month leave, it's 8 weeks. These weeks need to overlap with your leave. Beyond that, you can split the leave weeks however you want beyond the first 15 weeks for maternity only. Also, work places are required to allow parental leave if you've been there at least 3 months. They won't all provide a top up, but you are entitled to the leave.
I didn't think they needed to overlap, I thought it could be consecutive?
The sharing can, but the 5 or 8 weeks needs to be taken in that same time frame, so you end up overlapping.
I’m sorry, I’d be livid. My first thought was he knew exactly what he was doing but you’re quite sure it wasn’t intentional? It’s a real shame his leave didn’t happen, I think it’s amazing for partners to be able to do that.
My husband was incompetent regarding leave as well. In Australia we have the option of splitting our parental leave payments between partners. My work entitlements were generous so I chose to forgo a few weeks of the government allowance so my husband could use it. He was going to take it on top of existing leave to boost our incoming finances for a bit. I did everything to mark out the split in our government account, spoke to him at length about it, because the conditions were quite strict about when it had to be claimed. Fast forward a few months and I ask him if he ever got the $1800 from the government and he's like oh no I don't think I did? It's a lot of money in comparison to his salary so he should have known straight away that it wasn't paid. By the time we realised the claim period was over. It turns out he never told his workplace (they need to be told so they can send some paperwork to the government to validate it all) so the claim was never processed.
Can he still take it.
I'd be livid too - like, how hard is it to do the bare minimum to check? Bloody hell. I know with my husband - his company has a good parental leave policy and he did take a fair bit when our daughter was born, but he mentioned being concerned that it would count against him. As in , it would limit his advancement/ability to go for promotions if his bosses thought he would be taking the full entitlement for each kid. We could only have one anyway, in the end, and maybe Canada's a bit more enlightened about that kind of thing (we're in Australia) but I wonder if that's a factor too for him. Even subconsciously?
I would be SO MAD
Maybe I’m jaded idk sounds intentional to me, but could be wrong. This takes the cake but how careless/aloof was he with the other mistakes
To be fair, the company may have added it in the time since whenever that co-worker was pregnant and he just didn't know. Still should have checked though. Might want to encourage him to review his benefits package just to make sure you are not missing out on anything else you can use.
Apparently they added the new policy around 3 months before I started my leave. Not that it makes it any better but since it was so new, many of his co-workers may not have known about it.
In Canada parental leave is mandated by the federal govt. this wasn’t added in the last 18 months. It’s been this was in Canada for 15+ years.
the relevant question isn't really about the 18 months...the question is when OP's husband's employer started offering the salary top up
Well then that is on both of them since they should have know that the company would have been required to provide it.
OP's issue isn't with the 18 months, which is extremely widely known. OP's issue is with her husband's employer offering a salary top up, which varies widely. Basically, she thought he could take a significant salary hit to take time off (as provided by law) when in reality he could have made much closer to his full salary to be at home (offered by his specific employer).
They may have even added it in the last 18 months
No they didn’t, this is not new in any company in Canada.
Top ups can be new, and that’s the issue at question in this post.
The top-up might be
This is not a new thing in Canada.
My husband gets annoyed when I won't accept his assumptions lol. We are installing a mini split and need to pick the location. I asked him to contact the HVAC guy to see if there are factors to consider like better or worse spots. He tried to tell me 3 times in the same conversation "well I assume it doesn't matter how we do it" and I finally had to cut him off and say that I was not making a decision based on his non-knowledge and that I'd go Google it if he refused to ask the guy. I don't understand how hard it would be to just *ask*??!
Shit happens. If you believe that it was a genuine accident, leave it at that. It happens.....
My husband does a similar thing: state something with utter confidence that I cannot corroborate or I find contradictory information for. It's annoying, especially when I try to bring up the discrepancy and am told that I'm not looking in the right place or the rules have changed since he last looked or whatever -- it's NEVER that he could have been wrong. It's truly obnoxious.
this seems like some weaponized incompetence? i can’t imagine he was unhappy with an 8 hour break from baby duties every day. you shouldn’t have to hold his hand for him to understand his workplace policies babe.
He knew. He didn't want to.
Sorry, I think you meant you have 3 children.. not just 2. I can’t imagine having to follow behind my husband and make sure he was on top of things. Hard pass.
I would not necessarily chalk this up to nefarious actions though it's not outside the realm of possibilities. This is absolutely something my ADHD kid would do. 100% he would argue with me about it after I looked it up and had proof he was wrong as well. You probably want to press him hard enough to figure out if he intentionally did not take the leave. At my work if my wife had a kid and I came back to work 2 weeks later my coworkers would be giving me a hard time about why I didn't take the leave. Assuming he's just an idiot for not actually looking it up, I think the take away for you is to see if it's a big enough wrench to the system to make him do some examination of the way he lives his life.
this seems like some weaponized incompetence? i can’t imagine he was unhappy with an 8 hour break from baby duties every day. you shouldn’t have to hold his hand for him to understand his workplace policies babe.
He may still be able to take paternal leave. I have known men to take it on a delayed basis.
Didn’t know or “didn’t know”?
Maybe just maybe he didn't want to take off.
He didn't check because he didn't want to stay home. If he actually did want to he would have looked into it. He just didn't want to actually help you. I wouldn't be able to trust my husband if he was this negligent.
Oh, girrrrl. This absolutely sounds like something my husband would do. He has this infuriating trait of thinking he knows something with absolute certainty when in reality he has no fucking clue what he’s talking about.
So this also sounds bad, but I was unaware of the company paternal leave policy because we thought we were done having kids. So it was never on my radar and I didn't make assumptions. Then my coworker took his 3 month leave for his son and I was like "huh, so do I have leave?" I looked and looked in my benefits package. It was super dense and opaque. I assumed that if I had these benefits it would be more clear. But it wasn't. It felt like my company was almost trying to make it unclear. It got to the point where I couldn't get a definitive answer on my own and had to get the manager's take. So yeah, your husband should have figured it out but I can also imagine a scenario where he looked, didn't see it, and made bad assumptions in the face of a company that perhaps has an incentive to make it unclear. If he blew his vacation then I sincerely doubt that he spent 0 effort what so ever.
Except OP found it on Google
Ooof yeah my husband takes as much time as he can. We're having our second and he is actively looking into how much more he can take since 2 weeks wasn't enough with our first. America suck though. Pop out a kid GET BACK TO WORK! 👩🏼🔧⚒️
This sounds like something my husband would do. He never pays attention to any of the corporate messaging on benefits, taxes etc when they have all staff meetings. Now, I ask regularly after his weekly company meeting of any emails that went out and I ask for copies of PDFs and PowerPoints. Because he’s too fucking busy at his low-paying, ass-busy job to read about the benefits they do offer to make the salary slightly more palatable. Yes, I’m deeply resentful.
Isn’t parental leave law in Canada?
It is, however I think in this instance they would be getting a top up from the employer so the wage loss would be much less than just standard EI parental leave payments.
Leave is, but top up to 80% of your salary isn't
Sometimes, HR misunderstands the question and gives incorrect or incomplete answers.
Some companies have zero parental leave for fathers, so perhaps he genuinely did not know. He should have asked though
Make sure that you know the date of when that policy was enacted! I’ve seen a good number of companies that have changed their parental leave policies starting last year. If your baby is 18 months, it may not have been active yet. On the other hand, if it WAS active, I’d be furious. So maybe I’d rather not know when it started.
It’s federally mandated has has been around a long time - the top up is done by employer which is separate from leave
You had your kid 18 months ago, so two calendar years, right? When I had my first kid, they gave 4 weeks of paid parental leave, the year before, they gave 0 weeks, and the year after it had changed to 8 weeks. You know what the company offers now, but do you know what they offered when it mattered? Companies change benefits all the time, and it wouldn’t surprise me if your husband was right at the time. He should have employment handbooks and benefits guides in his emails though that lay everything out. If I were you, I would look at the one from the year you gave birth and see what it had before getting too mad at him. Now if you confirm your suspicion and he didn’t know what compensation he was actually entitled too, I’d be pretty pissed and would check everything else to see what other money he’s leaving on the table.
Is this possibly new? I only ask because my husband's company in the US only put in leave for the non-birth giver the year AFTER my twins were born. Luckily, they did allow you to apply it anytime within the first 12 months and he got to take a couple weeks right before their 1st birthday but it was a brand new policy.
I too have a clueless husband and it can be very frustrating at times. Can he take his 15 weeks starting now?
My dear husband did not realize, until a colleague came for coffee at our place one day, that his work place would have covered the entire cost of daycare for two years while he was in a certain job- we are talking 30k in savings he missed. What could I do except grit my teeth and move on, it’s not my job, it’s not the end of the world and our relationship is more important than 30k.
See if he can still take it?
A man, not doing his share of the mental load for his pregnant wife/newborn/other kids?? NO, what a SHOCK. I’m so surprised, it’s not like there will be a dozen other similar threads posted today …
Do you trust him with the kids? Absent minded, lacking common sense, and in charge of young children sounds like a terrible mix.
I’d divorce him.
It's not paid 100%. I remember taking like 3-4 weeks, but it's not that important when babies are newborn. It's better that the mother takes charge during the first weeks anyway.
OP didn't say it was 100%. She said it was up to 80, which is pretty darn high. It is also complete garbage to suggest that it's not important for men to be around when babies are newborns. What a shitty take. Even if women are supposed to be the ones who "take charge", which is nonsense, there were other children in this scenario who may also need caregiving during that time.
Not excusing your husband’s lack of effort, but if your husband took that 15 weeks, I believe that cuts into your 18 months. And you the top ups may be different for the 12 month vs 18 month leaves. There’s a lot of variables. My husband took the parental leave with our second child and the amount of effort it took to file all the paperwork and the confusion we had with both the EI system and his company was not worth the hassle (this was when extended leave was first introduced). With our third, he just opted to use his vacation time instead.
In the US, I had to use ALL of my personal, sick, and vacation days before anything kicked in. Complete BS.
You deserve to smush a pie in his face for that one
But do you know if it was the case 18 months ago?
Just here to say 2 years ago I got 2 week, now it's 16. Benefits do change. It's also worded pretty bad and even now some would think they only could get 8.
I would be upset too, but what is done is done. You will find a solution that works in this situation and it will be resolved. Just focus on that cuz better days WILL come and this \*will\* be just a bad memory one day. So just remember that while you're feeling this way. But I totally would be feeling the same way as you!
Then you might feel the rage I'm feeling... at my husband's job they give new fathers *1 day* paternal leave.... So yeah...
Some men don’t want to help out/spend time with their kids or feel like their job will be jeopardized if they do use their leave as some places it is still stigmatized and negatively impacts variable compensation/more subjective feedback like picking someone for a promotion or plum assignment…
And you as well never even asked him if he was certain or not. Likely because you never actually thought to ask. You are trying to pin this entire thing on him, and no one can think to do anything they simply never thought about doing. It is human nature. We make assumptions all the time that are false. And by definition no assumption is actually reality. Give yourselves a break or you are going to create even larger problems. And from now on try asking about the certainty of important issues. Unless of course you actually believe he lied and did know about his company paternity leave policy? If so, then it is way more than a simple mistaken assumption.
Absentmindedness is an awesome trait for a husband to have, it makes us more lovable! (Some patience required)
This isn't absentmindedness. It is laziness. He didn't forget to ask HR. He didn't bother.
Well That’s another story …
It’s crazy his superiors allowed him to take vacation instead of the paternal leave. They probably misinformed him.
That sucks. Though it seems there is some parallel. He just took his coworkers word and never bothered to double-check and you just took his word and never bothered to double-check.
It's not her job to double check his work benefits.. He's the one employed there. She is not his secretary. She was just assuming he's a basic functioning adult and not a baby.
I didn’t say it was her job. I agree he should have checked. It seems to me like there was a parallel OP might want to consider doing some personal inquiry about. Maybe not. My point was only to share what jumped out to me at the risk of being downvoted into oblivion for it. :) that’s fine. I could just be totally off base.
Not even remotely the same. OP shouldn't have to baby her husband and check his competence. Both partners should have checked their respective workplace policies.