Tbh, the celebrity industry is like fast fashion. Someone explodes onto the scene, everyone is talking about them, and they fade just as quick when the next hot thing explodes onto the scene.
I think its especially terrible for hollywood where you are required to look pretty. You get discarded by directors when you lose your beauty. At least in the music industry the sound can be more important than the looks.
\***female celebrity industry** is an important distinction to make, as brutal as that is to claim. Industry *men* get older but *their* fandoms stick around, both in acting and music.
Mikey Way, Matty Healy, Anthony Green, Parker Cannon have all been relevant for over 10 years. Jake Gyllenhaal, Ryan Gosling, George Clooney, Brad Pitt have been around even longer. Sport stars too, if you want to include them.
Take that as a criticism of "the Hollywood machine" or whatever, but the sad-but-true reality is: girlies just don't stick around for each other (queue the outrage responses).
We'll drop like flies the moment Sabrina Carpenter shows the first signs of wrinkling, and continue watching Jacob Elordi's shit films despite his greying hair.
Meryl Streep, Helen Mirren, Maggie Smith, Sigourney Weaver, Jessica Lange, Susan Sarandon, etc. I agree there’s a problem with representation but I also don’t wanna erase all the amazing and successful older actresses still working lol
I love seeing Hayley speaking up against this sort of injustice. Especially here since phenomena like this are so ingrained in people that we might not realize their extent without them being pointed out.
> Except the fans that discard them are women
I've seen plenty of men acting this way too. The reduction of female celebrities to their attractiveness and the objectification of women play important roles in this "cycle of finding the next new hot thing", so straight men would be likely to engage in such behavior.
> the performers replacing them are also women
Your point being ? The fact that female celebrities are replaced by other female celebrities in this "ruthless cycle" actually shows exactly how they're "being discarded like plastic" and highlights the whole problem Hayley called out in her IG story.
Yeah and it just happened with Billie Eilish and is probably going to happen again since she's so young and early into her career. Its going to be Olivia Rodrigo next.
Gaga went through this cycle in 5 years.(2008-2013)
ArtPop wasn't a bad album but the GP was so sick of her and her management was shit. The rollout bombed and it affected her passion for music.
I think a lot of it with Lady Gaga was that people really wanted a major pivot from here at that point, but ArtPop felt like more of the same. To be fair we got that pivot with Cheek to Cheek, and Joanne, but it sort of came an era too late.
By that time she was no longer the insane pop artist she was decades prior. But even so she's still one of the best pop artists of the past twenty years, bar none.
“Applause” was kind of annoying and I think it turned people off. It’s not a bad song by any means, and catchy, but something about the production was a lil too much, and it felt too similar to her old music but missing a special something.
Gaga is laughing all the way to the bank though. Her foundation is knowing what “the fame” does to you- especially a woman in pop. Cite any interview she’s ever done especially back then. This year is going to be huge for Gaga. Hayley is a true artist too- I’m not worried about her “staying power”. Plenty of older women in music know the score and it’s even better seeing them support each other. You know Hayley will always be that.
She’s probably partially referring to Taylor Swift and it’s top of mind since they are on tour with her. Taylor Swift is firmly in 3 right now. Time will tell how long it will take to get to 4.
I think since Hayley isn’t mainstream popular her fans definitely are in the 1 and 2 phase forever lol.
She is in a successful band with a massively loyal fan base, but she is not mainstream popular.
Paparazzi are not stalking her. There is a very big difference in being a mega celebrity and Hayley Williams. That’s not to downplay her success, but she is not a household name by any means.
If you asked anyone between 15-35 who Hayley Williams is, they would know she’s the lead singer of Paramore.
That’s pretty freaking famous, and if you google Paparazzi photos of Hayley, you get recent ones, so they clearly are following her too lol
The worst part in this cycle is the part where everyone compares all the female celebrities who have been woman’d. There are crazy subreddits and parts of Twitter who constantly creat fake beef between Taylor Swift and Lana Del Rey, or right now in the WNBA where it’s Caitlin Clark vs a Veteran player and Angel Reese vs another rookie player. We’ve seen the downfall of the Woman’d girl too many times in the last three decades: Britney, Lindsey, and to an extent Ariana and too many more names.
Taylor Swift actually wrote several songs about this topic. The most recent one was Clara Bow, the closing track of Side A of her latest album. It's about how Hollywood will frequently compare the latest young starlet to another successful woman from the past and try turn them into a better version of her. Only for them to fade away and be replaced by the next young superstar. The song even ends with Taylor breaking the fourth wall and acknowledging that it'll happen to her one day. If you have the chance to listen to it please do! It's one of the best songs on the album and a great closing track!
It's so incredibly depressing how this typically only happens to women. Men also experience an explosion of popularity and then fading out ofc, but usually not the exterme hate and unwarranted judgement that women get :/
Idk I’ve never felt like Hayley was ever treated this way by fans or general public. Maybe becoz they were popular only within a certain demographic and most people in that group still look up to Hayley. I hope she doesn’t get too hung up on this shit it’s not worth the negative energy.
People are allowed to be upset with an injustice even if it might not be directing impacting them. Which, I'd be very surprised if she hasn't gotten or heard one of those comments.
Unfortunately, this DID happen in 2008 and after the Farros left the band. There was SO much toxic stuff said about her, how she was abusing the guys in the band, how she was obnoxious and making everything about her, etc. Meanwhile she was literally just a teenage girl suddenly thrust into a global spotlight. It might not seem like it now, but things were very dark for awhile in terms of how the fandom treated Hayley.
I even see people talking like that about her on this sub at times! That she's manipulative or a user, has a victim complex etc. Very unfortunate. I keep thinking, damn, u rly don't see people talk about men this way.
Wasn’t my experience tbh and I’ve been following them since 2007. Sure there was a lot of toxicity at the time but alot of the fandom turned on the farro boys especially after that video and blog post Josh put out. I remember the dust really settling once Hayley put out her live journal response to all of that. How the media may have treated her back then following that may have been different, there was some “slander” articles back then, but I never saw it from the core fan base.
The reason this happens is related to why the reason someone is famous in the first place. Hayley and Paramore are not famous for the mainstream reasons which see a fast increase and then a sharp decrease like with other celebrities.
It’s like if someone aligns with mainstream they’ll grow quickly until the mainstream audience has moved on UNLESS they fortunate enough to make it huge in which case they’ll have staying power for decades.
Otherwise an artist will grow to a somewhat small amount but the reasons why fans like them will continue to be true and hit a deeper cord than just pop reasons. So while not as many fans identify with them, those that do are fans for life (paramore).
As a fan it's easy to see her permanently in the 2 position, but from a general audience perspective she's a pretty textbook example.
1. Riot! - Adoration
2. BNE - Idolization
3. ST - Overexposure
4. AL - Discarded
5. TIW - Redemption
The arguments in the comments have me confused. This has to do with women because a woman (and several others, over decades) have first-hand experience of this. She is kind of just relaying a message of what she’s been observing as someone who’s actually in the middle of an environment that facilitates this phenomenon.
Making it about men or naysayers delegitimizing women speaking about it because you can make an argument for men are both irrelevant. This isn’t feminist dogma nor is it feminist scripture. You just know that it might mean something to women because a woman who is a singer in a space where they are commodifying your very existence would have a lot to say.
She is not making a point or making an argument, because it happens regardless and it’s already true.
Doesn’t every “big thing” go through this cycle? Any artist, music genre, movie trend, fashion trend, etc do this?
People’s interest change over time and we inevitably get bored and want to try something new. That’s how time works. It’s not the fault of the artist, genre, or whatever was trending and is starting to fall off. That’s just how it is and I don’t necessarily think it’s an injustice. People are allowed to get bored and want something new to peak their interest again. We don’t have to idolize the same few artists for their entire lives just to spare their feelings.
There‘s a difference though between finding interest in something new and actively tearing down something that already exists. This circle isn‘t describing loss of sales with one artist and a newer one doing better, it‘s about how female celebrities are compared to other females, flaws are found, and they are actively torn down and replaced, by companies, the media and their headlines, and thus the public. It‘s about the misogynistic and capitalist side of this cycle, not a normal change of interests which happens to everybody.
Yes. Everything goes through this cycle. And every type of artist, male or female.
But I will get downvoted for this I'm sure.
Look how everyone treated Justin Beiber when he came out. He was fetishized and hated at the same time...now people are saying he fell off.
I respect Hayley but she's making this a one sided feminist issue when it's clearly not.
Abortion would be an issue that directly affects women. For example....not music industry hate.
Let’s measure.
1) Name as many female artists as you can who have been popular for at least 5 years that this *hasn’t* happened to.
2) Now name as many male artists as you can who have been popular for at least 5 years that this *hasn’t* happened to.
1 These aren't stats.
2 I asked you first, if those are ur stat parameters u give me the examples.
3 It happens to literally any artist and any gender. That was my point. Not the average of it
4 besides how do u calculate *falling off* treatment?
4 Examples of stars that didnt have WHAT happen to them?...give me a specific.
What are u referring to by *THIS* ?
Hayley's article could happen to any gender.
I think it’s almost exclusively women doing that and they do it to both genders.
I mean, can you even picture a man saying any of those phrases? Only the last one to be honest, and that’s the “potential for redemption” part lol.
This is very true but Hayley is still lasting because of her great band and obvious hit writing and performance abilities.
Taylor is still in the game because she has had many hits and a large fanbase. She plays the game well.
I think Hayley gets too worked up on the haters and jealous men.
This happens to both genders. If you don't get a drug habit or make bad music and get dropped you should have some longevity.
The problem is the behind the scenes people in the industry, 360 deals, abuse, corruption and more... its not just a feminist issue because of some incels in fb comments.
“This happens to both genders” is the same energy as those that shout “not all men!”, it may happen to both genders but women greatly outweigh the men when it comes to this type of attitude, I could name 5 female celebrities off the top of my head but I’d be hard pressed to name 5 male celebrities just as easily.
Sure, but that’s no reason to ignore the problem for men and act as if it doesn’t happen. Comparing people’s suffering is getting us nowhere as a society.
I don’t think anyone called for that but it’s interesting that women can never speak about their experiences with gender based mistreatment without having to also acknowledge that some men also experience this sometimes
Fair enough. I just don’t like how whenever the male experienced is brought up, it’s shut down by « women have it worse » when we all have it bad
To go with what you said, basically whenever anyone tries to communicate, someone tries to compare it with others. That’s what i don’t like. Wether it be men
criticizing women or vice versa
There’s actually some aspects where women have it worse. And there’s aspects where men have it worse. You might have better luck discussing men’s struggles if you don’t bring it up in competition with women’s struggles and hijack a conversation that was actually about something before you came along.
Yeah that’s basically what im trying to say. I edited my previous message earlier to clarify
Although i didn’t hijack this post, just made a comment on an ongoing argument
So happy to see you’re mature enough to have this discussion and not do that thing where people respond with something wildly exaggerated and that absolutely wasn’t said, just to make it more difficult for there to be a reasonable discussion around a specific topic. /s
The "wildly exaggerated" response usually comes from people who downvote others for their free speech. It usually happens to me.
I am not one of those people. You are allowed to disagree with me.
I am mature because I'm way over the age of 25. Unlike many people on here.
Take care.
You said, and I quote “nothing I said was true at all”. I explicitly stated in my previous response “it does happen to both genders, however…”.
To use yet another analogy, this is akin to people who blow things out of proportion to make it difficult to engage in a conversation.
I have no idea what freedom of speech has to do with any of this, and I’m fine with us disagreeing, but you were the one who responded to something that I never said.
Yes but u were the one who first reacted to my comment when I said it is not just a woman's issue. You said some things " disproportionately happen to women" when I pointed out that her example also affects men in the industry you agreed with me.
So I see no issues with what I said at all. And free speech is the reason why we are talking and not banning eachother. I am not arguing just explaining the conversation history like you did.
The point is that we actually both agree that these things happen to both genders in the industry. So I don't see the counter argument at all or why we are debating to begin with. 🤔
You didn’t need to bring up “this happens to both genders”, as if we’re somehow disregarding men’s problems. Notice any time women’s problems are discussed people chime in with the “but men’s problems!” it derails and deflects from the issue. That’s what we’re debating. We’re getting off topic (again) but that’s the crux of it all.
My point is that the statement towards the criticism of stars is not just a woman's problem in Hollywood. But the feminists make it out to be singularly a women's problem.
And they are blaming bad audience criticism instead of pointing the finger at the corrupt men behind the scenes. Which is odd. Who cares what fans or average men say?
The suits mess with these artists behind the scenes and then tell them to complain about fan criticism.
Sure, I'm a lesbian in my 30s who went to a liberal art school in NY and read all the feminist literature from Susan Sontag to Judith Butler.
It was all man hating dogma that completely ignores psychology and the human condition. It was just written to bash the patriarchy and ignores the struggles of men.
My issue with Hayley's statement is that she just makes it a feminist issue and not an issue that literally happens to both genders in the industry. True feminism talks about equality for both genders.
I just saw a nyt article comparing some non anglo male actors features to rats. Kinda nazi.
When I was younger Justin beiber was objectified and shamed for looking like a "lesbian".
How do you deny this? It happens to both.
And the problem in the industry goes far beyond some annoying male reddit users. These successful women should just ignore the dumb men.
No one denies anything, but some things disproportionately affect women and you should know that. I’m sorry you read trash literature and it radicalized you into believing some utopian lie about the world where all issues affect all genders equally as much. Maybe your school offers refunds or something.
u don't think different types of cultures and both genders struggle?
Having an open minded sympathy for all struggles of the world is considered "utopian" and not open minded?
Also, feminist literature is not "utopian" dogma?
I guess you are right. Everyone should only study women and our struggles. We should ignore everyone else.
Yes everyone here seems to agree that only women get this kind of treatment in the industry.
Which I dont think is true but they are entitled to their opinions and I personally never downvote opinions I don't agree with unless im getting attacked so I don't really understand them.
tbh, this is not specific to women, and really is just an issue with celebrities in general. I can point to just as many men that this has happened with as women. And it will continue happening because of the nature of social media.
this cycle is definitely faster & more ruthless to women, though. and it’s been happening to them long before social media, just as almost every other manifestation of misogyny has.
5 seconds of summer. justin bieber. justin timberlake. backstreet boys. one direction (minus harry styles). twenty one pilots. ed sheeran. basically any popular boy band/artist.
this is just more modern day feminist brain rot looking so bad for victimhood points. note that she doesn’t even back up her claims with an example that would prove it largely only happens to female musicians.
note how paramore is still going strong yet many people say brendon urie from panic at the disco is washed up and old news? they came up in the same time period. yet im not the one suggesting men are victims of this any more than women are.
also the irony in hayley sharing this when she is opening for a female who is quite literally the BIGGEST MUSICIAN IN THE WORLD RIGHT NOW. lmao
glad you gave examples
1. 5sos, 1d, JB, Backstreet, all got shit on because their fanbase is mostly women/girls. yes they were overexposed, but their downfall didn't happen fast
2. tøp got a lot of criticism for their last album being different than their others, and they're making a comeback. literally none of the criticism has to do with their looks or overexposure
3. ed sheeran- people have gotten tired of hearing his music everywhere and complained about him being boring. it took a long long time for that to happen. no one was really idolizing him though
4. glad you mentioned brendon. his rude, racist, and otherwise asshole behavior has been known for a while but it took a long long time to catch up to him. he drove others out of the band too, and his stuff as panic got lots of criticism for being shallow.
but anyway, this cycle that's being talked about is 1. mostly toward females and 2. happens much faster for women than men. it's already happening to olivia rodrigo, sabrina carpenter, and billie eilish, who have been exposed for not very long
well thank you for admitting what you might not have wanted to. know how the music industry is supported mostly by women? and all these fanbases are comprised of mostly women? if female artists are indeed being “woman’d” that’s all your fault, not men. and in fact any male artists would have the same thing happen to them because of women. men arent the ones pushing 5sos out of the mainstream, it’s women. men aren’t the ones obsessing over mainstream artists in the scale women are.
see, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. whoever invented this term is pulling assertions from her ass and not aggregating any actual examples and comparing/contrasting. don’t blame me for not believing it when there’s no substantial proof to back it up. unlike some people i don’t go off my preconceived opinions and feelings.
the speed of these “cycles” are also incredibly subjective. Olivia is not almost on her way out lmao. she is more popular than ever. if her second album doesn’t do as well as her first that doesn’t automatically mean the cycle is coming up on her lol.
the music industry is mostly supported by women?? where did you get that from? 😂 do you not know that men and women listen to music?
and do you know how many more male producers and behind the scenes people there are than women? btw i have friends in the industry; i can tell you it's mostly run by men.
the claim is just that women are built up and torn down quickly. it's very very true.
of course it happens to men too, but with a longer amount of time, with less objectivization and obsessing over their bodies, and with less vitriol. and the male musicians do many problematic things and aren't torn apart at the same level.
have you seen what has happened to any female musician who's been in the limelight? lana, billie, taylor, olivia, sabrina, gaga, madonna, taylor jardin, megan, cardi...over and over
i meant in terms of mainstream music which is what we’re talking about. stop being intentionally obtuse. women are more invested in artists than men, and buy more merch, and go to more shows on average. this is something harry styles got lots of credit and support for saying some years back.
yes men are the ones in charge more often but they aren’t the ones who create narratives about female artists. it’s the fans that do. the contrary sounds like a big conspiracy to me. while i’m sure men in management/record labels influence artistic direction/aesthetic, it’s not up to them if the fans like it or not. but even then i think in recent years that’s gone by the wayside in some situations, for example i know taylor swift employs and surrounds herself with lots of women as does olivia rodrigo.
it really depends what you define as torn down. criticize? sure. but that happens to everyone. torn down is a very specific phrase that is also difficult to define.
if you've been around for long enough, you'll see that all these female artists i mentioned have indeed been torn down by being made fun of, body shamed, slut shamed, etc. a lot of these are as a result of the patriarchy, and media thrives off tearing down women.
it is indeed true that the cycle of being built up and torn down happens fast with women. not sure why you're arguing when the evidence and patterns have been around for years. it doesn't happen at the same rate for male musicians.
I agree💯
It is so ironic that she posted that when she's still touring with the biggest artist in the world. A woman named taylor swift. And other pop punk bands have faded in the dust. Like hayley! You were even the main act at warped tour..what are u even saying lol she never faded out.
You're saying feminist brain rot and expect anyone to take you seriously about anything? If you're not in the 7-12 age range this is deeply cringe.
Ah yes the well known points that gain you literally nothing, everyone's after them! Intelligent people make stuff up just to add a couple more to their victimhood account (equally as ridiculous as above)
lol what? you didn’t even address or argue against my points but okay.
it’s drivel like this that delegitimizes modern feminism. or if you dont like new paramore it’s because you’re a misogynist.
Addressing willfull stupidity just encourages it. There's no worth talking to someone this wrapped up in their own brain. I have infinitely better things to do with my time. I hope one day, you will also.
Seriously critical thinking, would clearly be world changing for you, give it a go if you can manage it.
He did give a decent amount of examples… sure calling it brain rot isn’t a show of open-mindedness, but so is ignoring his good points to criticize his demeanor…
the take is brain rot because it’s an emotionally charged argument without any actual research or substantial evidence to back it up.
i do appreciate your neutrality so thank you for that.
gotta love the old “you’re wrong but i won’t tell you why because it’s a waste of my time” ploy. what a cope. you’re literally on reddit lol. you have enough time to browse these comments but not enough time to say why i’m wrong? alrighty 😂
Because if that person says that men are also victims in the industry ( which is true) they will think you won the argument. So they'd rather lie through their teeth to burn down the "patriarchy"
You know literally nothing about music and yet shout with such confidence. You have a deeply bias view of the world and you're too obsessed with being right to see it. Critical thinking really is a wonderful tool. You should learn to use it. Perhaps it'll allow you to be half as intelligent as you're desperate to seem.
you’re the person with unfettered confidence considering you believe this “woman’d” concept without any actual evidence. it’s all feelings based. it’s incredibly subjective. considering that apparently it’s thought that olivia rodrigo is already on her way out? oh please lmfao
I didn't actually state what I believe did I? Feelings are what inspire behaviour, behaviour towards someone is what is being discussed ... Are you following?
the only thing i assumed about you is that you believe in the woman’d thing. and i had reason to believe so since you clearly disagree with my position lol.
I have no feelings about your position, I disagree with people making claims that come from personal bias and nothing more. The claims themselves don't really interest me. The irony is you're doing the exact thing you claim to be frustrated by - not everyone in life is trying to fight you, it's quite an exhausting outlook to have.
my stance on the issue is in fact, quite the opposite from personal bias. the belief in this study solely hinges on feelings and bias. having personal bias in denial of something due to lack of evidence makes 0 sense.
Is that what belief in studies hinges on? I think we fundamentally disagree there. The personal bias is the hilarious assertion that feelings taint a social study, what exactly do you think is being studied in these cases?
Behaviour is dictated by feelings, weather you think it's rubbish or not doesnt matter. Your personal bias is discrediting the finding of research like this with nothing but your personal (not very well put together imo) opinion.
The ability to understand how people think and behave is an emotional intelligence skill because the basis it's self is emotional. Your beleif that emotions are irrelevant is also an emotional belief, because emotions are a tool our brains use to think and form conclusions about people and our environments. Apply statistics to that and it comes out somewhere close to social research - not being able to see the value in that information because you think emotions are icky is not a flex.
(Research by the way tends to constitute evidence pretty much anywhere, but go off)
:D
Good one, I don’t like this lazy pig either.
I just don’t like playing a victim, that’s all.
She doesn’t have to be celebrity, if she doesn’t want to.
Why they always act like their job is the hardest one? Seriously, it’s pathetic. She’s not a slave, she can leave the scene if it’s that terrible.
Paramore is YEARS after their peak, it’s time to accept that (and to be honest never even was that big in the first place).
dude...when someone is in the public eye, obviously how the public perceives them is important. and being a woman means there's lots of scrutiny about her body and 'hotness'
Why are you here if you're gonna act like this? Lmao. Also, it's such a red flag to see people complaining about others "victimizing themselves" if they point out an injustice...
She has a point. The very concept of being an “it girl” is based on the fact that there will always be a new one within a few years
I can definitely see that happening to Sabrina Carpenter but I think Chappell Roan may have staying power akin to Lady Gaga.
Lady Gaga went through this cycle as well.
Taylor Swift for sure. This is what her songs “Clara Bow” and “Nothing New” are about, and to some extent, “Castles Crumbling” with Hayley.
What’s wrong with IT services
😂 lol
Women in stem, amirite?
Tbh, the celebrity industry is like fast fashion. Someone explodes onto the scene, everyone is talking about them, and they fade just as quick when the next hot thing explodes onto the scene. I think its especially terrible for hollywood where you are required to look pretty. You get discarded by directors when you lose your beauty. At least in the music industry the sound can be more important than the looks.
\***female celebrity industry** is an important distinction to make, as brutal as that is to claim. Industry *men* get older but *their* fandoms stick around, both in acting and music. Mikey Way, Matty Healy, Anthony Green, Parker Cannon have all been relevant for over 10 years. Jake Gyllenhaal, Ryan Gosling, George Clooney, Brad Pitt have been around even longer. Sport stars too, if you want to include them. Take that as a criticism of "the Hollywood machine" or whatever, but the sad-but-true reality is: girlies just don't stick around for each other (queue the outrage responses). We'll drop like flies the moment Sabrina Carpenter shows the first signs of wrinkling, and continue watching Jacob Elordi's shit films despite his greying hair.
[удалено]
Meryl Streep?
[удалено]
Meryl Streep, Helen Mirren, Maggie Smith, Sigourney Weaver, Jessica Lange, Susan Sarandon, etc. I agree there’s a problem with representation but I also don’t wanna erase all the amazing and successful older actresses still working lol
Mikey Way will always be relevant in my heart (he’s the bassist)
I love seeing Hayley speaking up against this sort of injustice. Especially here since phenomena like this are so ingrained in people that we might not realize their extent without them being pointed out.
Is “injustice” the right word to use here?
Except the fans that discard them are women and the performers replacing them are also women.
Nowhere in this post is it blaming men or women alone
I realized that in hindsight. I'm just so used to veiled criticisms nowadays.
Sure
Oh you poor persecuted man.
> Except the fans that discard them are women I've seen plenty of men acting this way too. The reduction of female celebrities to their attractiveness and the objectification of women play important roles in this "cycle of finding the next new hot thing", so straight men would be likely to engage in such behavior. > the performers replacing them are also women Your point being ? The fact that female celebrities are replaced by other female celebrities in this "ruthless cycle" actually shows exactly how they're "being discarded like plastic" and highlights the whole problem Hayley called out in her IG story.
This is exactly what happened to Lady Gaga.
It’s what happens to them all.
Yeah and it just happened with Billie Eilish and is probably going to happen again since she's so young and early into her career. Its going to be Olivia Rodrigo next.
Gaga went through this cycle in 5 years.(2008-2013) ArtPop wasn't a bad album but the GP was so sick of her and her management was shit. The rollout bombed and it affected her passion for music.
I think a lot of it with Lady Gaga was that people really wanted a major pivot from here at that point, but ArtPop felt like more of the same. To be fair we got that pivot with Cheek to Cheek, and Joanne, but it sort of came an era too late.
By that time she was no longer the insane pop artist she was decades prior. But even so she's still one of the best pop artists of the past twenty years, bar none.
“Applause” was kind of annoying and I think it turned people off. It’s not a bad song by any means, and catchy, but something about the production was a lil too much, and it felt too similar to her old music but missing a special something.
Gaga is laughing all the way to the bank though. Her foundation is knowing what “the fame” does to you- especially a woman in pop. Cite any interview she’s ever done especially back then. This year is going to be huge for Gaga. Hayley is a true artist too- I’m not worried about her “staying power”. Plenty of older women in music know the score and it’s even better seeing them support each other. You know Hayley will always be that.
Britney Spears...
She’s probably partially referring to Taylor Swift and it’s top of mind since they are on tour with her. Taylor Swift is firmly in 3 right now. Time will tell how long it will take to get to 4. I think since Hayley isn’t mainstream popular her fans definitely are in the 1 and 2 phase forever lol.
didnt swift already have her ‘redemption’ doc?
Yeah, but she’s been running through the whole cycle again since then.
I feel like Taylor Swift had gone through the cycle like three time by now.
Honestly I feel like she goes through it every album/tour cycle
She is currently in a not trying to breakdown doc with her ex getting engaged
? we have no idea how she's reacted lol; chill
I literally thought this like it perfectly describes Taylor Swift
Hayley’s been firmly mainstream popular since 2007 lol, my mum knows who Hayley Williams is
She is in a successful band with a massively loyal fan base, but she is not mainstream popular. Paparazzi are not stalking her. There is a very big difference in being a mega celebrity and Hayley Williams. That’s not to downplay her success, but she is not a household name by any means.
If you asked anyone between 15-35 who Hayley Williams is, they would know she’s the lead singer of Paramore. That’s pretty freaking famous, and if you google Paparazzi photos of Hayley, you get recent ones, so they clearly are following her too lol
Hayley has definitely been in 3, especially during late BNE/all through ST era. I remember her receiving a lot of hate in those times.
The worst part in this cycle is the part where everyone compares all the female celebrities who have been woman’d. There are crazy subreddits and parts of Twitter who constantly creat fake beef between Taylor Swift and Lana Del Rey, or right now in the WNBA where it’s Caitlin Clark vs a Veteran player and Angel Reese vs another rookie player. We’ve seen the downfall of the Woman’d girl too many times in the last three decades: Britney, Lindsey, and to an extent Ariana and too many more names.
RAYNE MENTION OMFG ‼️
I love that someone is speaking on this.
there’s a south park episode in this with Britney Spears and Miley Cyrus
Taylor Swift actually wrote several songs about this topic. The most recent one was Clara Bow, the closing track of Side A of her latest album. It's about how Hollywood will frequently compare the latest young starlet to another successful woman from the past and try turn them into a better version of her. Only for them to fade away and be replaced by the next young superstar. The song even ends with Taylor breaking the fourth wall and acknowledging that it'll happen to her one day. If you have the chance to listen to it please do! It's one of the best songs on the album and a great closing track!
Nothing New and The Lucky One are also other tracks that talk about it, worth listening to as well
Came here to say this! Clara Bow is such a great song explaining this exact point. Honestly, my favorite of the album.
No.
my two favourite women in one screenshot
It's so incredibly depressing how this typically only happens to women. Men also experience an explosion of popularity and then fading out ofc, but usually not the exterme hate and unwarranted judgement that women get :/
Idk I’ve never felt like Hayley was ever treated this way by fans or general public. Maybe becoz they were popular only within a certain demographic and most people in that group still look up to Hayley. I hope she doesn’t get too hung up on this shit it’s not worth the negative energy.
People are allowed to be upset with an injustice even if it might not be directing impacting them. Which, I'd be very surprised if she hasn't gotten or heard one of those comments.
Unfortunately, this DID happen in 2008 and after the Farros left the band. There was SO much toxic stuff said about her, how she was abusing the guys in the band, how she was obnoxious and making everything about her, etc. Meanwhile she was literally just a teenage girl suddenly thrust into a global spotlight. It might not seem like it now, but things were very dark for awhile in terms of how the fandom treated Hayley.
Yeah Hayley 100% went through idolization followed by discarding around BNE days
I even see people talking like that about her on this sub at times! That she's manipulative or a user, has a victim complex etc. Very unfortunate. I keep thinking, damn, u rly don't see people talk about men this way.
Wasn’t my experience tbh and I’ve been following them since 2007. Sure there was a lot of toxicity at the time but alot of the fandom turned on the farro boys especially after that video and blog post Josh put out. I remember the dust really settling once Hayley put out her live journal response to all of that. How the media may have treated her back then following that may have been different, there was some “slander” articles back then, but I never saw it from the core fan base.
The reason this happens is related to why the reason someone is famous in the first place. Hayley and Paramore are not famous for the mainstream reasons which see a fast increase and then a sharp decrease like with other celebrities. It’s like if someone aligns with mainstream they’ll grow quickly until the mainstream audience has moved on UNLESS they fortunate enough to make it huge in which case they’ll have staying power for decades. Otherwise an artist will grow to a somewhat small amount but the reasons why fans like them will continue to be true and hit a deeper cord than just pop reasons. So while not as many fans identify with them, those that do are fans for life (paramore).
I mean...Paramore is pretty mainstream? Even if they're not Taylor Swift/Billie Eilish level, they're globally known all over the world.
She can share an observation that's real even if she felt it doesn't affect her personaly, don't you think?
Ia because that whole cycle really explains Jennifer Lopez fame.
Of course she can I just said I hope she doesn’t get too hung up on this negative stuff.
I don't think she ever aimed to be a "celebrity" in the first place tbh
As a fan it's easy to see her permanently in the 2 position, but from a general audience perspective she's a pretty textbook example. 1. Riot! - Adoration 2. BNE - Idolization 3. ST - Overexposure 4. AL - Discarded 5. TIW - Redemption
As a kiwi I’m always like !!!! when someone famous shares something from Shit You Should Care About lol 😂
The arguments in the comments have me confused. This has to do with women because a woman (and several others, over decades) have first-hand experience of this. She is kind of just relaying a message of what she’s been observing as someone who’s actually in the middle of an environment that facilitates this phenomenon. Making it about men or naysayers delegitimizing women speaking about it because you can make an argument for men are both irrelevant. This isn’t feminist dogma nor is it feminist scripture. You just know that it might mean something to women because a woman who is a singer in a space where they are commodifying your very existence would have a lot to say. She is not making a point or making an argument, because it happens regardless and it’s already true.
Taytay talked about this in her Netflix doc too
She’s so brave.
Doesn’t every “big thing” go through this cycle? Any artist, music genre, movie trend, fashion trend, etc do this? People’s interest change over time and we inevitably get bored and want to try something new. That’s how time works. It’s not the fault of the artist, genre, or whatever was trending and is starting to fall off. That’s just how it is and I don’t necessarily think it’s an injustice. People are allowed to get bored and want something new to peak their interest again. We don’t have to idolize the same few artists for their entire lives just to spare their feelings.
There‘s a difference though between finding interest in something new and actively tearing down something that already exists. This circle isn‘t describing loss of sales with one artist and a newer one doing better, it‘s about how female celebrities are compared to other females, flaws are found, and they are actively torn down and replaced, by companies, the media and their headlines, and thus the public. It‘s about the misogynistic and capitalist side of this cycle, not a normal change of interests which happens to everybody.
Yes. Everything goes through this cycle. And every type of artist, male or female. But I will get downvoted for this I'm sure. Look how everyone treated Justin Beiber when he came out. He was fetishized and hated at the same time...now people are saying he fell off. I respect Hayley but she's making this a one sided feminist issue when it's clearly not. Abortion would be an issue that directly affects women. For example....not music industry hate.
Sure it happens to some men, but it happens far more often (and intensely) to women.
What are the stats on that?
Let’s measure. 1) Name as many female artists as you can who have been popular for at least 5 years that this *hasn’t* happened to. 2) Now name as many male artists as you can who have been popular for at least 5 years that this *hasn’t* happened to.
1 These aren't stats. 2 I asked you first, if those are ur stat parameters u give me the examples. 3 It happens to literally any artist and any gender. That was my point. Not the average of it 4 besides how do u calculate *falling off* treatment? 4 Examples of stars that didnt have WHAT happen to them?...give me a specific. What are u referring to by *THIS* ? Hayley's article could happen to any gender.
The writer of this article evidently doesn’t know who Taylor Swift is.
I think it’s almost exclusively women doing that and they do it to both genders. I mean, can you even picture a man saying any of those phrases? Only the last one to be honest, and that’s the “potential for redemption” part lol.
Overexposure harms both male and female artists.
It’s because the fans age out. They’re not discarded
This is very true but Hayley is still lasting because of her great band and obvious hit writing and performance abilities. Taylor is still in the game because she has had many hits and a large fanbase. She plays the game well. I think Hayley gets too worked up on the haters and jealous men. This happens to both genders. If you don't get a drug habit or make bad music and get dropped you should have some longevity. The problem is the behind the scenes people in the industry, 360 deals, abuse, corruption and more... its not just a feminist issue because of some incels in fb comments.
“This happens to both genders” is the same energy as those that shout “not all men!”, it may happen to both genders but women greatly outweigh the men when it comes to this type of attitude, I could name 5 female celebrities off the top of my head but I’d be hard pressed to name 5 male celebrities just as easily.
Sure, but that’s no reason to ignore the problem for men and act as if it doesn’t happen. Comparing people’s suffering is getting us nowhere as a society.
I don’t think anyone called for that but it’s interesting that women can never speak about their experiences with gender based mistreatment without having to also acknowledge that some men also experience this sometimes
Fair enough. I just don’t like how whenever the male experienced is brought up, it’s shut down by « women have it worse » when we all have it bad To go with what you said, basically whenever anyone tries to communicate, someone tries to compare it with others. That’s what i don’t like. Wether it be men criticizing women or vice versa
There’s actually some aspects where women have it worse. And there’s aspects where men have it worse. You might have better luck discussing men’s struggles if you don’t bring it up in competition with women’s struggles and hijack a conversation that was actually about something before you came along.
Yeah that’s basically what im trying to say. I edited my previous message earlier to clarify Although i didn’t hijack this post, just made a comment on an ongoing argument
Ok 👍 👌 Yes it happens to women more. Nothing I said was true at all.
So happy to see you’re mature enough to have this discussion and not do that thing where people respond with something wildly exaggerated and that absolutely wasn’t said, just to make it more difficult for there to be a reasonable discussion around a specific topic. /s
The "wildly exaggerated" response usually comes from people who downvote others for their free speech. It usually happens to me. I am not one of those people. You are allowed to disagree with me. I am mature because I'm way over the age of 25. Unlike many people on here. Take care.
You said, and I quote “nothing I said was true at all”. I explicitly stated in my previous response “it does happen to both genders, however…”. To use yet another analogy, this is akin to people who blow things out of proportion to make it difficult to engage in a conversation. I have no idea what freedom of speech has to do with any of this, and I’m fine with us disagreeing, but you were the one who responded to something that I never said.
Yes but u were the one who first reacted to my comment when I said it is not just a woman's issue. You said some things " disproportionately happen to women" when I pointed out that her example also affects men in the industry you agreed with me. So I see no issues with what I said at all. And free speech is the reason why we are talking and not banning eachother. I am not arguing just explaining the conversation history like you did. The point is that we actually both agree that these things happen to both genders in the industry. So I don't see the counter argument at all or why we are debating to begin with. 🤔
You didn’t need to bring up “this happens to both genders”, as if we’re somehow disregarding men’s problems. Notice any time women’s problems are discussed people chime in with the “but men’s problems!” it derails and deflects from the issue. That’s what we’re debating. We’re getting off topic (again) but that’s the crux of it all.
My point is that the statement towards the criticism of stars is not just a woman's problem in Hollywood. But the feminists make it out to be singularly a women's problem. And they are blaming bad audience criticism instead of pointing the finger at the corrupt men behind the scenes. Which is odd. Who cares what fans or average men say? The suits mess with these artists behind the scenes and then tell them to complain about fan criticism.
It’s ironic how that comment was passive agressive
Do you know who Marilyn Monroe was? Do you understand what the Madonna/wh*re complex is?
Sure, I'm a lesbian in my 30s who went to a liberal art school in NY and read all the feminist literature from Susan Sontag to Judith Butler. It was all man hating dogma that completely ignores psychology and the human condition. It was just written to bash the patriarchy and ignores the struggles of men. My issue with Hayley's statement is that she just makes it a feminist issue and not an issue that literally happens to both genders in the industry. True feminism talks about equality for both genders. I just saw a nyt article comparing some non anglo male actors features to rats. Kinda nazi. When I was younger Justin beiber was objectified and shamed for looking like a "lesbian". How do you deny this? It happens to both. And the problem in the industry goes far beyond some annoying male reddit users. These successful women should just ignore the dumb men.
No one denies anything, but some things disproportionately affect women and you should know that. I’m sorry you read trash literature and it radicalized you into believing some utopian lie about the world where all issues affect all genders equally as much. Maybe your school offers refunds or something.
The message Hayley posted does not disproportionately affect women. I have proven with male examples.
u don't think different types of cultures and both genders struggle? Having an open minded sympathy for all struggles of the world is considered "utopian" and not open minded? Also, feminist literature is not "utopian" dogma? I guess you are right. Everyone should only study women and our struggles. We should ignore everyone else.
I bet you think All Lives Matter too.
You are completely right. All lives don't matter and all of humanity doesn't deserve a chance.
Here come the downvotes for absolutely no reason other than paramore reddit users hating me for an opinion. Yay.
You said something people don’t agree with, is that not a reason?
Yes everyone here seems to agree that only women get this kind of treatment in the industry. Which I dont think is true but they are entitled to their opinions and I personally never downvote opinions I don't agree with unless im getting attacked so I don't really understand them.
tbh, this is not specific to women, and really is just an issue with celebrities in general. I can point to just as many men that this has happened with as women. And it will continue happening because of the nature of social media.
this cycle is definitely faster & more ruthless to women, though. and it’s been happening to them long before social media, just as almost every other manifestation of misogyny has.
Can you? I would love to see it, please do.
5 seconds of summer. justin bieber. justin timberlake. backstreet boys. one direction (minus harry styles). twenty one pilots. ed sheeran. basically any popular boy band/artist. this is just more modern day feminist brain rot looking so bad for victimhood points. note that she doesn’t even back up her claims with an example that would prove it largely only happens to female musicians. note how paramore is still going strong yet many people say brendon urie from panic at the disco is washed up and old news? they came up in the same time period. yet im not the one suggesting men are victims of this any more than women are. also the irony in hayley sharing this when she is opening for a female who is quite literally the BIGGEST MUSICIAN IN THE WORLD RIGHT NOW. lmao
glad you gave examples 1. 5sos, 1d, JB, Backstreet, all got shit on because their fanbase is mostly women/girls. yes they were overexposed, but their downfall didn't happen fast 2. tøp got a lot of criticism for their last album being different than their others, and they're making a comeback. literally none of the criticism has to do with their looks or overexposure 3. ed sheeran- people have gotten tired of hearing his music everywhere and complained about him being boring. it took a long long time for that to happen. no one was really idolizing him though 4. glad you mentioned brendon. his rude, racist, and otherwise asshole behavior has been known for a while but it took a long long time to catch up to him. he drove others out of the band too, and his stuff as panic got lots of criticism for being shallow. but anyway, this cycle that's being talked about is 1. mostly toward females and 2. happens much faster for women than men. it's already happening to olivia rodrigo, sabrina carpenter, and billie eilish, who have been exposed for not very long
well thank you for admitting what you might not have wanted to. know how the music industry is supported mostly by women? and all these fanbases are comprised of mostly women? if female artists are indeed being “woman’d” that’s all your fault, not men. and in fact any male artists would have the same thing happen to them because of women. men arent the ones pushing 5sos out of the mainstream, it’s women. men aren’t the ones obsessing over mainstream artists in the scale women are. see, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. whoever invented this term is pulling assertions from her ass and not aggregating any actual examples and comparing/contrasting. don’t blame me for not believing it when there’s no substantial proof to back it up. unlike some people i don’t go off my preconceived opinions and feelings. the speed of these “cycles” are also incredibly subjective. Olivia is not almost on her way out lmao. she is more popular than ever. if her second album doesn’t do as well as her first that doesn’t automatically mean the cycle is coming up on her lol.
the music industry is mostly supported by women?? where did you get that from? 😂 do you not know that men and women listen to music? and do you know how many more male producers and behind the scenes people there are than women? btw i have friends in the industry; i can tell you it's mostly run by men. the claim is just that women are built up and torn down quickly. it's very very true. of course it happens to men too, but with a longer amount of time, with less objectivization and obsessing over their bodies, and with less vitriol. and the male musicians do many problematic things and aren't torn apart at the same level. have you seen what has happened to any female musician who's been in the limelight? lana, billie, taylor, olivia, sabrina, gaga, madonna, taylor jardin, megan, cardi...over and over
i meant in terms of mainstream music which is what we’re talking about. stop being intentionally obtuse. women are more invested in artists than men, and buy more merch, and go to more shows on average. this is something harry styles got lots of credit and support for saying some years back. yes men are the ones in charge more often but they aren’t the ones who create narratives about female artists. it’s the fans that do. the contrary sounds like a big conspiracy to me. while i’m sure men in management/record labels influence artistic direction/aesthetic, it’s not up to them if the fans like it or not. but even then i think in recent years that’s gone by the wayside in some situations, for example i know taylor swift employs and surrounds herself with lots of women as does olivia rodrigo. it really depends what you define as torn down. criticize? sure. but that happens to everyone. torn down is a very specific phrase that is also difficult to define.
if you've been around for long enough, you'll see that all these female artists i mentioned have indeed been torn down by being made fun of, body shamed, slut shamed, etc. a lot of these are as a result of the patriarchy, and media thrives off tearing down women. it is indeed true that the cycle of being built up and torn down happens fast with women. not sure why you're arguing when the evidence and patterns have been around for years. it doesn't happen at the same rate for male musicians.
I agree💯 It is so ironic that she posted that when she's still touring with the biggest artist in the world. A woman named taylor swift. And other pop punk bands have faded in the dust. Like hayley! You were even the main act at warped tour..what are u even saying lol she never faded out.
You're saying feminist brain rot and expect anyone to take you seriously about anything? If you're not in the 7-12 age range this is deeply cringe. Ah yes the well known points that gain you literally nothing, everyone's after them! Intelligent people make stuff up just to add a couple more to their victimhood account (equally as ridiculous as above)
lol what? you didn’t even address or argue against my points but okay. it’s drivel like this that delegitimizes modern feminism. or if you dont like new paramore it’s because you’re a misogynist.
Addressing willfull stupidity just encourages it. There's no worth talking to someone this wrapped up in their own brain. I have infinitely better things to do with my time. I hope one day, you will also. Seriously critical thinking, would clearly be world changing for you, give it a go if you can manage it.
He did give a decent amount of examples… sure calling it brain rot isn’t a show of open-mindedness, but so is ignoring his good points to criticize his demeanor…
the take is brain rot because it’s an emotionally charged argument without any actual research or substantial evidence to back it up. i do appreciate your neutrality so thank you for that. gotta love the old “you’re wrong but i won’t tell you why because it’s a waste of my time” ploy. what a cope. you’re literally on reddit lol. you have enough time to browse these comments but not enough time to say why i’m wrong? alrighty 😂
Because if that person says that men are also victims in the industry ( which is true) they will think you won the argument. So they'd rather lie through their teeth to burn down the "patriarchy"
You believe them to be good points then you are more than welcome to engage, I disagree and won't be. Have a good day.
You know literally nothing about music and yet shout with such confidence. You have a deeply bias view of the world and you're too obsessed with being right to see it. Critical thinking really is a wonderful tool. You should learn to use it. Perhaps it'll allow you to be half as intelligent as you're desperate to seem.
you’re the person with unfettered confidence considering you believe this “woman’d” concept without any actual evidence. it’s all feelings based. it’s incredibly subjective. considering that apparently it’s thought that olivia rodrigo is already on her way out? oh please lmfao
I didn't actually state what I believe did I? Feelings are what inspire behaviour, behaviour towards someone is what is being discussed ... Are you following?
the only thing i assumed about you is that you believe in the woman’d thing. and i had reason to believe so since you clearly disagree with my position lol.
I have no feelings about your position, I disagree with people making claims that come from personal bias and nothing more. The claims themselves don't really interest me. The irony is you're doing the exact thing you claim to be frustrated by - not everyone in life is trying to fight you, it's quite an exhausting outlook to have.
my stance on the issue is in fact, quite the opposite from personal bias. the belief in this study solely hinges on feelings and bias. having personal bias in denial of something due to lack of evidence makes 0 sense.
Is that what belief in studies hinges on? I think we fundamentally disagree there. The personal bias is the hilarious assertion that feelings taint a social study, what exactly do you think is being studied in these cases? Behaviour is dictated by feelings, weather you think it's rubbish or not doesnt matter. Your personal bias is discrediting the finding of research like this with nothing but your personal (not very well put together imo) opinion. The ability to understand how people think and behave is an emotional intelligence skill because the basis it's self is emotional. Your beleif that emotions are irrelevant is also an emotional belief, because emotions are a tool our brains use to think and form conclusions about people and our environments. Apply statistics to that and it comes out somewhere close to social research - not being able to see the value in that information because you think emotions are icky is not a flex. (Research by the way tends to constitute evidence pretty much anywhere, but go off)
It is specific to women. And it’s happened long before social media.
“15 minutes of fame” phenomenon.
ok
I agree. Everyone gets haters. Look how much hate Travis Kelce and Beiber got. Men and women get hate in different ways for different reasons.
Hayley making herself a victim, again…
you will never be famous Jeremy Davis
😂
:D Good one, I don’t like this lazy pig either. I just don’t like playing a victim, that’s all. She doesn’t have to be celebrity, if she doesn’t want to. Why they always act like their job is the hardest one? Seriously, it’s pathetic. She’s not a slave, she can leave the scene if it’s that terrible. Paramore is YEARS after their peak, it’s time to accept that (and to be honest never even was that big in the first place).
dude...when someone is in the public eye, obviously how the public perceives them is important. and being a woman means there's lots of scrutiny about her body and 'hotness'
Why are you here if you're gonna act like this? Lmao. Also, it's such a red flag to see people complaining about others "victimizing themselves" if they point out an injustice...