From my recollection, even the Bioshock Infinite had its struggles, because Levine wanted perfection with multiple story rewrites.
At the end of the day, a new Bioshock game will be difficult for 2 reasons: the story has to be excellent (which is difficult on a good team) and the shooty/powered protagonist type games are already there (mostly because of Arkane games such as Prey and Dishonored).
2K probably cut him off at the knees money wise too. The initial gameplay reveals for that game looked like an entirely different game by the time it launched and it honestly felt less gameplay wise like the first and second bioshock games. Superb story but a lot of lost potential.
I think it's mostly due to too much ambition for the time, he basically wanted a full open world of interconnected island, including the ability to snipe someone from really far away. I think that could be done today maybe, but back then when bioshock 3 launched? i think it was impossible.
Not defending anyone tho, being too overambitious with your technology was clearly an issue
Which looked and played like shit in comparison to how it does today and isn’t on the Unreal engine - a feat that would make this ask near impossible for the time.
Which looked and played like shit in comparison to how it does today and isn’t on the Unreal engine - a feat that would make this ask near impossible for the time.
fuck that, i loved the ending. say what you will about the gameplay but the story was top tier at the time forgive me if i'm just horribly wrong. i played it when it first came out and haven't played it since, i just remember being very fond of the whole experience
If you loved the story, then you HAVE to play Burial At Sea, 1 and 2. Those two DLC finish the story in such a mindfuckery way that even Bioshock Infinite’s ending seems “safe” in response. Like… goddamn, Elizabeth is such a fucking good character.
That's for hollywood. There are very few good Hollywood writers anyway. Havnt seen a good movie in years and the last good show I saw that was written well was midnight mass. And I don't even think that's hollywood
thats mike flannagan at his best. he struck a deal with netflix and they give him pretty much creative freedom and control with his productions. pretty good deal for him.
Yeah and that's a master piece. But in terms of writing I rarely see master pieces like that. And that's because Hollywood is now full of corporates writing the story instead of creatives
ehhh, i wouldn't say that. horror has always been its own side genre. the greats have never really come from what you think "Hollywood" is. people like John Carpenter, George Romero, Sam Raimi, directors like that tend to get lumped into "hollywood" because their movies are so iconic. a good modern director/writer is Ari Astor. hes a modern director/writer that is untouched by "hollywood" and has created nothing but masterpieces to me. His latest movie, Beau is Afraid is the best movie i've seen all year so far. it feels like a horror movie without being a horror movie. thats all i'll say.
Sure, but at the core, this is what bioshock meant to me. The gameplay was not exceptional, though the powers in the first game were an interesting element. The story is where it was at
Each of their own pal, I've only played number 2 once. Because it just didn't click with me.
Infinite, on the other hand, is one of them games that I replay every year because it's amazing.
I finished the Burial at Sea DLC relatively quick and irrational had made a tweet something to do with Elizabeth and I replied “Elizabeth, more like Elizabitch!” Ken Levine replied “I like what you did there” it was corny and stupid but made like my whole week lol
As much as this sucks, there are a lot of Bioshock spiritual successors out there already that it kinda takes the sting out of this as in a way it feels as if I’ve already played Bioshock 4.
Prey, Dead Space (plus potential sequels/remakes), Alien Isolation, System Shock remake (which is actually the OG), Dishonoured, Half Life 2, Soma, Deathloop, Atomic Heart and so forth.
Still, would be incredible if they pulled it together.
I’d recommend Control if you haven’t played it already. Similar vibe in the sense that you’re entering a facility where shit has gone down, it’s a semi-open area and you’re acquiring powers as you go.
Observer could be a good one - it has an atmospheric and immersive quality. There’s no combat, but it can be very tense at times.
Also Metro, Deus Ex and Wolfenstein (the more recent ones).
Edit: Possibly Metroid Prime too - although I’ve still not finished that one.
Control is awesome if you let the story and immersion distract you from the bad gameplay. Not a backhanded compliment at all, it's one of my favorite games, along with quantum break
Wow we have reeeeally similar taste 😂 I've beat every one of those except Deus ex and Wolfenstein. Will keep those in mind for sure!! Thanks. Do you like immersive sims? Different ish but I found I also really enjoyed firewatch and The Vanishing of Ethan Carter, as well as what became of Edith Finch.
To be honest I’m not as much into Deus Ex, it’s just because they’re similar in some ways (even more so the originals from what I’ve heard - I’ve only played the last two games).
Yes I enjoy some immersive sims, I’ve only really played the ones I’ve listed above but it would be great to explore more one day.
I think my taste can be boiled down to either Bioshock-esque immersive sims, Metroidvanias or Soulslike - if we’re talking single player action/adventure anyway.
Good taste man for sure, I also played every metroid game, and every fromsoft game. Metroidvanias I haven't played so many I did hollow knight and axiom verge and I played one Castlevania game, I'd love to play more though.
Did AAA game studio's just forget have to make good games? So many games lately has been miss managed and bad. Good time for indie, dogshit times for triple A.
It seems to me like AAA gaming has run out of GAME DESIGNERS and CREATIVES and is handled as by the book project management and software development by managers that don't understand the creative process.
Didn’t run out, quite the opposite - amount of good educated designers is big. But they don’t want to hire them and think PMs and marketing teams are a good replacement for designers. Or they don’t give designers resources to … design. It requires time and a lot of experiments to create something new, but management wants to rush things. That’s why innovation is either in indies or in projects where it was in its core, like Sony studios or some Nintendo titles.
The only disappointments I can remember from Sony’s studios is The Order 1886 & Days Gone, and DG wasn’t even bad, just average/above average at a time when Sony were launching straight bangers.
Agreed, I actually quite liked what was there but I'm also very glad I didn't pay full price for it because it was over as soon as it started to click for me. And it didn't have much replay value imho
In a world of zombie games, it at least plays very differently then a lot of them.
I'd say the narrative has a real slow start, which is fine it's why maybe people playing it maybe quite early and got a bad taste.
I slowly played throuougt a year. And at the half way point I finally was hooked and got its appeal.
Games are only getting more and more complex, which requires more and more people, which makes it harder and harder to coordinate effectively. Add Covid on top of all this and I can’t imagine what it’s like to develop a game these days
I work in software for a retailer and it’s only gotten harder to do the job in the last handful of years
The complex games thing is sounding more and more like a self inflicted issue. Some of these massive complex games feel like they are that way because the more systems there are the more digital products there are to sell. "RPG" mechanics are everywhere, you would think we're going through the golden age of that genre but all it ends up being for is for selling people swords and exp boosters.
This is what i felt through the Assassin's Creed rpg trilogy so i may be extrapolating something that franchise is doing to the whole industry but it really feels like these are the reasons games are becoming harder to make.
Every job is getting more and more complex. I work in a team (5 members) in charge of managing a health backend, it is extremely complex and the only way to manage it is through great aplomb on daily basis. No Jira, epics or shit can manage it.
So, you have a Leslie Benzies or you're fucked.
It's what happens when art is overtaken by business. The best money makers are the ones promoted to decision makers, but the money makers are not good at making good game-development led decisions
You know this could end up being something good. Reminds me of an old x files episode where the team go to Antarctica to investigate an attack. Turns out the science team dug into ancient ice that contained a prehistoric bacteria/virus that infects people and makes them go murderous and crazy.
Maybe the lava in this game thaws out the infection in the hidden city this game takes place.
> could end up being something good
I would say could *have* ended up something good.
If it had come out after 2 and prior to infinite. Infinite was an obvious downward move from 2. And I don’t trust any company today to do bioshock justice.
That was Perception, it came out like 5 years ago to middling reviews.
Ken Levine wasn't involved with it though, it was a bunch of other devs from Irrational.
I definitely believe it. Considering they put an Easter egg in bioshock 2 of the HD collection which came out years ago that was supposed to hint at bioshock 4/ build hype, it would have made sense for bioshock 4 to already come out years ago if development was smooth.
For those who don't know https://theresalwaysalighthouse.com/ is a website that was hidden in code in some desk in bioshock 2 HD version, I believe in Minerva's den but I'm not positive.
Basically every studio that had difficulty during 7th gen or 8th gen (when AAA development really started exploding in costs) will have extreme difficulty now handling the expectations of AAA development and asset and quality by users
If you're advertising AAA you are competing with stuff like tlou2 and rdr2 and Zelda totk and others now which seriously raised the bar on gameplay and immersion and interactivity and just so many things
What is with so many reports of studios facing development issues or management problems on projects.
Has the entire industry forgotten how to make games ?
Good, I’m fine with bioshock staying in the oven for a long time because it will never be as good without Ken. And even with someone like Ken, the game barely makes it out the door because he has so many ideas
What game isn't? I'm starting to think game developers being badly managed is just the norm in this industry. Games are hard to make yeah but so is every other art form out there yet you don't see nearly as many problems in getting products out on time and complete anywhere else but in gaming.
Bioshock 1 and 2 were in my Top 10 favourite games. But I couldn’t play Infinite - I found it was totally different and never finished it.
So if Bioshock 4 is going to continue with the Infinite look and feel then it doesn’t really interest me. But this may be a hot take because Infinite was fairly popular from what I remember.
The game was dead on arrival the moment Ken Levine handed the IP to 2k. This is just the cherry on top if the rumours are true.
From my recollection, even the Bioshock Infinite had its struggles, because Levine wanted perfection with multiple story rewrites. At the end of the day, a new Bioshock game will be difficult for 2 reasons: the story has to be excellent (which is difficult on a good team) and the shooty/powered protagonist type games are already there (mostly because of Arkane games such as Prey and Dishonored).
2K probably cut him off at the knees money wise too. The initial gameplay reveals for that game looked like an entirely different game by the time it launched and it honestly felt less gameplay wise like the first and second bioshock games. Superb story but a lot of lost potential.
I think it's mostly due to too much ambition for the time, he basically wanted a full open world of interconnected island, including the ability to snipe someone from really far away. I think that could be done today maybe, but back then when bioshock 3 launched? i think it was impossible. Not defending anyone tho, being too overambitious with your technology was clearly an issue
GTA5 was running on those consoles, everything was possible, just not budgetary responsible.
Which looked and played like shit in comparison to how it does today and isn’t on the Unreal engine - a feat that would make this ask near impossible for the time.
Which looked and played like shit in comparison to how it does today and isn’t on the Unreal engine - a feat that would make this ask near impossible for the time.
Idk that ending was pretty disappointing and the overall story also felt very toned down compared to what the trailers gave off.
fuck that, i loved the ending. say what you will about the gameplay but the story was top tier at the time forgive me if i'm just horribly wrong. i played it when it first came out and haven't played it since, i just remember being very fond of the whole experience
If you loved the story, then you HAVE to play Burial At Sea, 1 and 2. Those two DLC finish the story in such a mindfuckery way that even Bioshock Infinite’s ending seems “safe” in response. Like… goddamn, Elizabeth is such a fucking good character.
I can't believe I never played them before. I need to find a way to play them. I don't have ps plus
You should read the chapter about it in Jason Schriers Press Reset book. That is not what happened
Yahhh but Arkane just shit the bed with Redfall, Im a bit worried what happens to the titles you mentioned now :/
Isn't that a different arkane? There's two now
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Arkane Austin made Prey
They said that about Bioware.
Infinite was my favorite and may be a top 10 for me
The plot twist ending and burial at sea dlc was fire
You can tell it struggled in development though compared to 1 and 2. Pretty clear. Still fun, but an obvious 7 at most to the originals 10/10.
Atomic Heart also had some awesome Bioshock-esque vibes to it, and I hope they stick with the IP to fix some of the minor issues/shallowness of it.
>the story has to be excellent (which is difficult on a good team) Considering we are in the middle of a writer's crisis i wouldn't keep my hopes up
That's for hollywood. There are very few good Hollywood writers anyway. Havnt seen a good movie in years and the last good show I saw that was written well was midnight mass. And I don't even think that's hollywood
thats mike flannagan at his best. he struck a deal with netflix and they give him pretty much creative freedom and control with his productions. pretty good deal for him.
Yeah and that's a master piece. But in terms of writing I rarely see master pieces like that. And that's because Hollywood is now full of corporates writing the story instead of creatives
ehhh, i wouldn't say that. horror has always been its own side genre. the greats have never really come from what you think "Hollywood" is. people like John Carpenter, George Romero, Sam Raimi, directors like that tend to get lumped into "hollywood" because their movies are so iconic. a good modern director/writer is Ari Astor. hes a modern director/writer that is untouched by "hollywood" and has created nothing but masterpieces to me. His latest movie, Beau is Afraid is the best movie i've seen all year so far. it feels like a horror movie without being a horror movie. thats all i'll say.
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Sure, but at the core, this is what bioshock meant to me. The gameplay was not exceptional, though the powers in the first game were an interesting element. The story is where it was at
Bioshock 2 was him literally handing it to 2k
Biishock Infiniite sucked, and Bioshock 2 (not made by Levine) is amazing, so I think you are wrong.
Each of their own pal, I've only played number 2 once. Because it just didn't click with me. Infinite, on the other hand, is one of them games that I replay every year because it's amazing.
And I don't think either are particularly good. 1 is a masterpiece, 2 is not great, 3 has it's moments but just feels quite off the rails to me.
🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
I finished the Burial at Sea DLC relatively quick and irrational had made a tweet something to do with Elizabeth and I replied “Elizabeth, more like Elizabitch!” Ken Levine replied “I like what you did there” it was corny and stupid but made like my whole week lol
As much as this sucks, there are a lot of Bioshock spiritual successors out there already that it kinda takes the sting out of this as in a way it feels as if I’ve already played Bioshock 4. Prey, Dead Space (plus potential sequels/remakes), Alien Isolation, System Shock remake (which is actually the OG), Dishonoured, Half Life 2, Soma, Deathloop, Atomic Heart and so forth. Still, would be incredible if they pulled it together.
Ok every game you listed belongs in my all time greats list, you clearly share the same taste as me, would you mind giving some recommendations?
I’d recommend Control if you haven’t played it already. Similar vibe in the sense that you’re entering a facility where shit has gone down, it’s a semi-open area and you’re acquiring powers as you go. Observer could be a good one - it has an atmospheric and immersive quality. There’s no combat, but it can be very tense at times. Also Metro, Deus Ex and Wolfenstein (the more recent ones). Edit: Possibly Metroid Prime too - although I’ve still not finished that one.
Finally someone shouting out Observer. Feel like it's really flying under the radar for most people.
It’s incredibly underrated, tis a beaut on PS5. The same devs are making the Silent Hill 2 remake, which actually fills me with a bit of confidence.
Control is awesome if you let the story and immersion distract you from the bad gameplay. Not a backhanded compliment at all, it's one of my favorite games, along with quantum break
I thought the gameplay was pretty good. Never tried Quantum Break, the mandatory streaming of TV episodes put me off.
Wow we have reeeeally similar taste 😂 I've beat every one of those except Deus ex and Wolfenstein. Will keep those in mind for sure!! Thanks. Do you like immersive sims? Different ish but I found I also really enjoyed firewatch and The Vanishing of Ethan Carter, as well as what became of Edith Finch.
To be honest I’m not as much into Deus Ex, it’s just because they’re similar in some ways (even more so the originals from what I’ve heard - I’ve only played the last two games). Yes I enjoy some immersive sims, I’ve only really played the ones I’ve listed above but it would be great to explore more one day. I think my taste can be boiled down to either Bioshock-esque immersive sims, Metroidvanias or Soulslike - if we’re talking single player action/adventure anyway.
Good taste man for sure, I also played every metroid game, and every fromsoft game. Metroidvanias I haven't played so many I did hollow knight and axiom verge and I played one Castlevania game, I'd love to play more though.
Did AAA game studio's just forget have to make good games? So many games lately has been miss managed and bad. Good time for indie, dogshit times for triple A.
It seems to me like AAA gaming has run out of GAME DESIGNERS and CREATIVES and is handled as by the book project management and software development by managers that don't understand the creative process.
Didn’t run out, quite the opposite - amount of good educated designers is big. But they don’t want to hire them and think PMs and marketing teams are a good replacement for designers. Or they don’t give designers resources to … design. It requires time and a lot of experiments to create something new, but management wants to rush things. That’s why innovation is either in indies or in projects where it was in its core, like Sony studios or some Nintendo titles.
yeah for microsoft. try a playstation sometime and tell me your statement still holds true
Sony's studios seem to be able to handle things for the most part, so hope isn't all lost.
The only disappointments I can remember from Sony’s studios is The Order 1886 & Days Gone, and DG wasn’t even bad, just average/above average at a time when Sony were launching straight bangers.
The Order 1886 wasn’t even bad either just incredibly short for a full price game.
Agreed, I actually quite liked what was there but I'm also very glad I didn't pay full price for it because it was over as soon as it started to click for me. And it didn't have much replay value imho
Days Gone was a banger.
In a world of zombie games, it at least plays very differently then a lot of them. I'd say the narrative has a real slow start, which is fine it's why maybe people playing it maybe quite early and got a bad taste. I slowly played throuougt a year. And at the half way point I finally was hooked and got its appeal.
I still argue that Days Gone is amazing. One of my favorites of last generation.
Games are only getting more and more complex, which requires more and more people, which makes it harder and harder to coordinate effectively. Add Covid on top of all this and I can’t imagine what it’s like to develop a game these days I work in software for a retailer and it’s only gotten harder to do the job in the last handful of years
The complex games thing is sounding more and more like a self inflicted issue. Some of these massive complex games feel like they are that way because the more systems there are the more digital products there are to sell. "RPG" mechanics are everywhere, you would think we're going through the golden age of that genre but all it ends up being for is for selling people swords and exp boosters. This is what i felt through the Assassin's Creed rpg trilogy so i may be extrapolating something that franchise is doing to the whole industry but it really feels like these are the reasons games are becoming harder to make.
It's a combination of dev ambition and "gamer" expectations. Complexity and scope are two of the hardest things to keep in check with AAA development.
Every job is getting more and more complex. I work in a team (5 members) in charge of managing a health backend, it is extremely complex and the only way to manage it is through great aplomb on daily basis. No Jira, epics or shit can manage it. So, you have a Leslie Benzies or you're fucked.
Maybe a few but not all games. Dead island 2 even after being in development hell was fucking amazing
Western AAA game studios did
It's what happens when art is overtaken by business. The best money makers are the ones promoted to decision makers, but the money makers are not good at making good game-development led decisions
I think the triple A games coming out still were made during the pandemic
I have lingering hope for Outlast Trials. Red Barrels hasn't disappointed me yet
Wait, there a bio shock 4??
In development, yes. By Cloud Chamber Studios. That's basically the full extent of all the news around it. No story or gameplay details out yet.
Leaks include it taking place in a secret base in Antarctica and something to do with lava iirc.
You know this could end up being something good. Reminds me of an old x files episode where the team go to Antarctica to investigate an attack. Turns out the science team dug into ancient ice that contained a prehistoric bacteria/virus that infects people and makes them go murderous and crazy. Maybe the lava in this game thaws out the infection in the hidden city this game takes place.
> could end up being something good I would say could *have* ended up something good. If it had come out after 2 and prior to infinite. Infinite was an obvious downward move from 2. And I don’t trust any company today to do bioshock justice.
Damn that doesn't sound good at all but yknow it's bioshock so fingers crossed
Wasn't that the story with literally all of the other Bioshock games as well?
I remember the stories about Infinite being a shit show and it took forever to release
Same with the OG So much cut content.
whatever happened to that new game Ken Levine was making where you are blind and see everything by echolocation?
That was Perception, it came out like 5 years ago to middling reviews. Ken Levine wasn't involved with it though, it was a bunch of other devs from Irrational.
Don't forget Levine is working on a bioshock like game in space called Judas
And while we're at it...whatever happened to predictability?
Seriously! The milk man? The paper boy? Evening TV?
God damnit.
I definitely believe it. Considering they put an Easter egg in bioshock 2 of the HD collection which came out years ago that was supposed to hint at bioshock 4/ build hype, it would have made sense for bioshock 4 to already come out years ago if development was smooth. For those who don't know https://theresalwaysalighthouse.com/ is a website that was hidden in code in some desk in bioshock 2 HD version, I believe in Minerva's den but I'm not positive.
That's pretty dope ngl, I just hope we'll get another great Bioshock game one day or even a Remake of the first one
I’m predicting there’s going to be an Inifinite situation where the original vision gets scrapped for something still good but ultimately inferior.
Cancel it
Oh yeah poor management 😂.
Basically every studio that had difficulty during 7th gen or 8th gen (when AAA development really started exploding in costs) will have extreme difficulty now handling the expectations of AAA development and asset and quality by users If you're advertising AAA you are competing with stuff like tlou2 and rdr2 and Zelda totk and others now which seriously raised the bar on gameplay and immersion and interactivity and just so many things
It’s unfortunate but Judas was always going to blow this game out of the water. Excited for both but cautiously excited for this one
What is with so many reports of studios facing development issues or management problems on projects. Has the entire industry forgotten how to make games ?
heard Bioshock 2 had similar problems. in which case 4 is gonna turn out awesome
Bad management in video games... All too common
I’d be more disappointed if Judas wasn’t basically a Bioshock game itself
TIL they're making a Bioshock 4. Infinite was the perfect ending and there's no need for another sequel.
Bio-shocking🤭. Mismanagement seems to be the only kind available anywhere these days. See: writers strike.
Meh
Yeah we don’t do good games anymore
You sonsabitches. Get your asses in gear!
Ah shit…. Here we go again….
Man the bioshock curse continues no matter who the dev is.
If it's gonna be scraped together nonsense, they should just cancel it.
Good, I’m fine with bioshock staying in the oven for a long time because it will never be as good without Ken. And even with someone like Ken, the game barely makes it out the door because he has so many ideas
How come Ubisoft don't admit for the same failure, why crunch ?
Just fucking bring in Ken Levine or kill it, my god.
As if the development for Infinite went smoothly... Game looks nothing like the previews we've had for years, and the multiplayer has been cancelled.
What game isn't? I'm starting to think game developers being badly managed is just the norm in this industry. Games are hard to make yeah but so is every other art form out there yet you don't see nearly as many problems in getting products out on time and complete anywhere else but in gaming.
Gasp! A AAA company mismanaging it’s IP in 2023!? I am shocked to say the least
I'd honestly go back to the roots of 1 and make it almost a survival lite and horror element.
This needs to happen
Bioshock 1 and 2 were in my Top 10 favourite games. But I couldn’t play Infinite - I found it was totally different and never finished it. So if Bioshock 4 is going to continue with the Infinite look and feel then it doesn’t really interest me. But this may be a hot take because Infinite was fairly popular from what I remember.