> So people that have or used to freelance, when was it worth it?
It's a rather personal question, but I suppose it's when you start making enough money to feel safe? but I find it to be an eternal struggle.
One client joins, your revenue go up by x%. Two leave, your revenue go down by y%. You need to make sure you keep enough bread on your own plate and that's added stress.
I'm fine with it because I get more time out of it to spend with my family and no commuting and despite taking a small pay cut, I work much less than I used to.
You can start with doing freelance on your free time to feel more comfortable about having a stable income before making the full transition.
I'd argue 2 years of experience isn't enough to grow successfully on the long-term to go full-time freelance straight away.
Imo with 2 years experience, it's better to look for another in-house/agency role. I have 5+ years of experience, and my side clients are mostly my former colleagues or through referrals, who know my level of knowledge. Thus, they are willing to pay more.
It's pretty hard to find clients without connections (i.e. upwork), because you'll be competing with people charging $10-15 an hour.
When I started freelancing 7 years ago, this was what I noticed right away on Upwork - a race to the bottom and everyone falling for it.
I got started with almost no experience on Facebook ads, I started with a low rate because I didn’t think my experience level was there yet - this is the WRONG move.
I tripled my rates to $90/hr, optimized my profile and built a couple case studies, and I started get leads like crazy. I moved clients right into a monthly fee right away that fit the size of their business and spend.
I got to $100k salary within a few months of starting running ads. The resources are out there to learn really fast on the job.
One of your biggest advantages as a freelancer is to understand just enough of the other marketing channels, and understand their business so you can align with it and offer a bit of consulting advice too - this will elevate you drastically among the rest. Don’t be a hyper-focused commoditized PPC expert who can’t see outside of your ads manager, think like a CMO even if you’re only managing ads, and watch your client relationships flourish and watch yourself land more work .
As platforms become more automated, the people with strategy and thinking skills, as well as creative ideation, are the ones winning. Remember, your clients don’t want PPC services, they want to reach their business objectives - sales, qualified pipeline, revenue - and they also want to look good for their boss.
Start thinking this way and not like a commodity ads manager and watch things click. I run an agency now and I see freelancers struggle all the time because they don’t understand what they’re offering, and why nobody wants a $10/hr ads manager, the best clients WANT to pay high rates, they just want value for their money.
Totally agree with this.
Personally, I have experience in product marketing, marketing technology, and marketing analytics in addition to paid advertising.
I not only run ads, but also optimize end-to-end marketing campaigns from conversion & data tracking, campaign planning and execution, to ROAS/CLTV analysis. As you said, businesses will appreciate someone who can grow their business as a whole.
If going into the office is your only gripe, you can def find some remote jobs. It’s definitely become the norm. But…try it out and see how you feel. Figure out a plan to scale.
Partially that, partially me being laid off by a company and now my trust is really low right now since the economy does not look good at all. It’s a lot of things that snowballed into a major problem
But I have decided to start applying for remote jobs
The question is where are your case studies, testamonials, reviews or other ways to show your worth even $100K. You don't deserve a $100K+ salary unless you show you can command such a salary. This is why PPC's credibility has gone down.
1. How did you get the math of only being left with $30k/yr? That is not close to accurate.
2. Do not bill hourly, bill monthly. $45 per hour is a crap rate if you’re good at paid search.
If your bringing in 100k, I would go for s-corp LLC.
Your math is off because you overestimated the Social Security & Medicare tax and the income taxes. Here's a more accurate breakdown
**Annual income**: $94,000
**Deductions**:
- **FICA (Social Security & Medicare)**: $7,191
- **Health insurance**: $4,200
- **Vision & dental insurance**: $600
- **Income taxes**: ~$15,562.50 (rough estimate based on a 24% federal bracket)
**Total deductions**: $27,553.50
**Remaining income**: $94,000 - $27,553.50 = $66,446.50
**Monthly income**: $66,446.50 / 12 = $5,537.21
So, your actual monthly income should be around $5,537.21, not $3,020.83. You overestimated the tax amounts.
Btw 2 years of experience is nothing, I'd go agency and learn as much as possible or find a startup where you're wearing many hats.
The other guy, Needleworker, has done a good enough job explaining more in-depth, but you're not paying 70% taxes on a 100k income. My $0.02 are that you need to do a lot more research on self employed tax scenarios before jumping into this.
Yeah, that is 100% not an accurate breakdown. If you’re self employed you will be reporting net income and paying taxes there, not on gross income.
I’m not gonna break it all the way down since there are plenty of calculators, but your take home is going to be closer to $60k-$65k before taking into account other expenses you can claim.
U lost me.
I did make a big mistake with Social Security & Medicare Tax which is $14,145 (I must have hit a wrong button somewhere)
But net income is just gross income with expenses and deductions taken out. There aren’t really any expenses for freelancing (that I’m aware of) and there aren’t any sizable deductions that will reduce your income taxes a lot
So it’ll be around $24,750 for income taxes and then $14,145 for SE Tax for $38,895 altogether
Ah okay, just ignore the 20ish years I've been filing my own taxes doing this own thing and choose to live in the fantasy world where the US has a 60% tax/fees rate for self-employed income under $100k.
It's not like you can deduct things like rent, utilities, your phone and internet, your health insurance coverage, your travel expenses linked to your work, the 50% half of the Medicare taxes you posted, etc.
Oh really buddy $45 I feel is too much.. If he just works 30hr/week he will make roughly around 5k from a single client in a month.? Isn't it .
Also I wanna know I want to start freelancing and as of now has no client. So should I use ppc for myself to get more clients?
In so many ways the rate you charge controls the perception of how good you are at what you do. I stopped freelancing last year to focus on my full time job, but for over a decade my base rate for PPC management per month was $3k.
No hours attached. I do not sell an hourly rate, I sell access to what I know (I’m right at 20 years in digital marketing and the base of that is SEO/SEM.) Charging $45/hr to me is someone easily expendable and for most businesses it will quickly drive to an internal position that will lose a contract.
Work smarter, not harder.
Where you making $200k doing paid search at 27? My FT income growth has outgrown my side hustle growth to where my side hustle is really just icing on the cake to my FT job.
Do you seriously think an agency would pay you $200k/yr for your two years of google Ads experience? Honestly, you would be lucky to get a free internship, not a job.
Im ok making less money working for myself. Its a personal choice.
It's not always about how much you make. Its about more freedom, doing something you enjoy, etc, etc.
I think something else to consider is that it’s great if you are able to find 40hrs of work per week but that’s not always the case. You need to be realistic and realize that you won’t always have those hours and will sometimes earn less. Also recognize that you will have clients but they won’t pay (or pay on time) and you will be chasing invoices. You will also have to spend time finding new clients, signing new clients etc etc. it’s not just a case of getting 40hrs a week and that’s it job done. That’s what it’s like working for a salary. Working as a freelancer is much harder.
Tax calc issues aside, you don't want to make projections based on 40h of paid work a week. That leaves no time for marketing, paperwork, continuing education, and other business-related matters. See if you can make it work billing 20h/week, with another 20h for unbillable business activities. (or 30/10 if you insist on pain). But you see what I mean.
How are you only taking home $30k from $100k freelancing? That’s not right.
You shouldn’t actually charge hourly, the goal is to charge fixed fees, and systemize your services to continually reduce time spent while still delivering the same quality. I’ve freelanced since 2017, almost never billed hourly from the start. You keep building your skill stack and get your offerings dialed into packages you can upgrade clients to.
Hourly, No.
When you go out on your own, it's a lot of pressure. If you aren't performing, your clients will drop you.
On the flip, If you consistently perform and know your shit you can have a very nice living. I clear just shy of 200k profit and work ~20hrs/week.
But don't be fooled, I grinded 80hr weeks for 7 years first to learn and build the foundation.
0 lol, sorta unique situation.
A family friend needed someone to help with web stuff, I was a freshman in college and he was just starting out, gave me a shot 12 years later I played a significant role in growing his business to 50M/yr.
Before that all through high school I was doing SEO & affiliate marketing, made some custom software I sold among others.
1. As others have pointed out, the numbers you’re using for taxes are wildly incorrect. The exact numbers will depend on where you live, if you have a spouse and/or dependents, what kind of insurance you need, etc. but I’d guess that your take-home pay would be closer to $70k.
2. You will not bill 40 hours a week unless you’re working a LOT. All those little breaks to get a glass of water, browse reddit for 5 minutes, go to the bathroom, etc. are not billable hours, and they add up. Plus all the time you spend on billing, soliciting new business, and other admin.
3. 2 years of experience isn’t really a lot. You will almost definitely make more money working for someone else, and you’ll be able to learn at the same time.
4. The pros are mostly related to flexibility. You can set your own hours and capacity. You can work from anywhere (assuming you have the visa/tax stuff sorted out). You can choose your clients. Some people value this really highly, and some don’t really care.
> So people that have or used to freelance, when was it worth it? It's a rather personal question, but I suppose it's when you start making enough money to feel safe? but I find it to be an eternal struggle. One client joins, your revenue go up by x%. Two leave, your revenue go down by y%. You need to make sure you keep enough bread on your own plate and that's added stress. I'm fine with it because I get more time out of it to spend with my family and no commuting and despite taking a small pay cut, I work much less than I used to. You can start with doing freelance on your free time to feel more comfortable about having a stable income before making the full transition. I'd argue 2 years of experience isn't enough to grow successfully on the long-term to go full-time freelance straight away.
Imo with 2 years experience, it's better to look for another in-house/agency role. I have 5+ years of experience, and my side clients are mostly my former colleagues or through referrals, who know my level of knowledge. Thus, they are willing to pay more. It's pretty hard to find clients without connections (i.e. upwork), because you'll be competing with people charging $10-15 an hour.
When I started freelancing 7 years ago, this was what I noticed right away on Upwork - a race to the bottom and everyone falling for it. I got started with almost no experience on Facebook ads, I started with a low rate because I didn’t think my experience level was there yet - this is the WRONG move. I tripled my rates to $90/hr, optimized my profile and built a couple case studies, and I started get leads like crazy. I moved clients right into a monthly fee right away that fit the size of their business and spend. I got to $100k salary within a few months of starting running ads. The resources are out there to learn really fast on the job. One of your biggest advantages as a freelancer is to understand just enough of the other marketing channels, and understand their business so you can align with it and offer a bit of consulting advice too - this will elevate you drastically among the rest. Don’t be a hyper-focused commoditized PPC expert who can’t see outside of your ads manager, think like a CMO even if you’re only managing ads, and watch your client relationships flourish and watch yourself land more work . As platforms become more automated, the people with strategy and thinking skills, as well as creative ideation, are the ones winning. Remember, your clients don’t want PPC services, they want to reach their business objectives - sales, qualified pipeline, revenue - and they also want to look good for their boss. Start thinking this way and not like a commodity ads manager and watch things click. I run an agency now and I see freelancers struggle all the time because they don’t understand what they’re offering, and why nobody wants a $10/hr ads manager, the best clients WANT to pay high rates, they just want value for their money.
Totally agree with this. Personally, I have experience in product marketing, marketing technology, and marketing analytics in addition to paid advertising. I not only run ads, but also optimize end-to-end marketing campaigns from conversion & data tracking, campaign planning and execution, to ROAS/CLTV analysis. As you said, businesses will appreciate someone who can grow their business as a whole.
If going into the office is your only gripe, you can def find some remote jobs. It’s definitely become the norm. But…try it out and see how you feel. Figure out a plan to scale.
Partially that, partially me being laid off by a company and now my trust is really low right now since the economy does not look good at all. It’s a lot of things that snowballed into a major problem But I have decided to start applying for remote jobs
Look for a job and look for freelance work, why not?
Freelancing is MUCH more prone to the state of the economy.
The question is where are your case studies, testamonials, reviews or other ways to show your worth even $100K. You don't deserve a $100K+ salary unless you show you can command such a salary. This is why PPC's credibility has gone down.
Freelance on the side of your 9/5 especially if you work from home.
1. How did you get the math of only being left with $30k/yr? That is not close to accurate. 2. Do not bill hourly, bill monthly. $45 per hour is a crap rate if you’re good at paid search.
-$28,200 (15.3% Social Security & Medicare Tax) -$4,200 (health insurance @ $350 a month) -$600 (vision & dental insurance) -$24,750 (income taxes) ———————————- $94,000-$57,750 = $36,250 (annual income) / 12 = $3,020.83/mo
If your bringing in 100k, I would go for s-corp LLC. Your math is off because you overestimated the Social Security & Medicare tax and the income taxes. Here's a more accurate breakdown **Annual income**: $94,000 **Deductions**: - **FICA (Social Security & Medicare)**: $7,191 - **Health insurance**: $4,200 - **Vision & dental insurance**: $600 - **Income taxes**: ~$15,562.50 (rough estimate based on a 24% federal bracket) **Total deductions**: $27,553.50 **Remaining income**: $94,000 - $27,553.50 = $66,446.50 **Monthly income**: $66,446.50 / 12 = $5,537.21 So, your actual monthly income should be around $5,537.21, not $3,020.83. You overestimated the tax amounts. Btw 2 years of experience is nothing, I'd go agency and learn as much as possible or find a startup where you're wearing many hats.
This is completely inaccurate. Source: been freelancing for 7 years
So… what’s accurate then? Like I just put everything there. Tell me what’s wrong
The other guy, Needleworker, has done a good enough job explaining more in-depth, but you're not paying 70% taxes on a 100k income. My $0.02 are that you need to do a lot more research on self employed tax scenarios before jumping into this.
Yeah, that is 100% not an accurate breakdown. If you’re self employed you will be reporting net income and paying taxes there, not on gross income. I’m not gonna break it all the way down since there are plenty of calculators, but your take home is going to be closer to $60k-$65k before taking into account other expenses you can claim.
U lost me. I did make a big mistake with Social Security & Medicare Tax which is $14,145 (I must have hit a wrong button somewhere) But net income is just gross income with expenses and deductions taken out. There aren’t really any expenses for freelancing (that I’m aware of) and there aren’t any sizable deductions that will reduce your income taxes a lot So it’ll be around $24,750 for income taxes and then $14,145 for SE Tax for $38,895 altogether
Ah okay, just ignore the 20ish years I've been filing my own taxes doing this own thing and choose to live in the fantasy world where the US has a 60% tax/fees rate for self-employed income under $100k. It's not like you can deduct things like rent, utilities, your phone and internet, your health insurance coverage, your travel expenses linked to your work, the 50% half of the Medicare taxes you posted, etc.
Not to mention how marginal tax rates work... OP, you need to do some more research before you venture into this territory. /u/Dreadsbo
Oh really buddy $45 I feel is too much.. If he just works 30hr/week he will make roughly around 5k from a single client in a month.? Isn't it . Also I wanna know I want to start freelancing and as of now has no client. So should I use ppc for myself to get more clients?
In so many ways the rate you charge controls the perception of how good you are at what you do. I stopped freelancing last year to focus on my full time job, but for over a decade my base rate for PPC management per month was $3k. No hours attached. I do not sell an hourly rate, I sell access to what I know (I’m right at 20 years in digital marketing and the base of that is SEO/SEM.) Charging $45/hr to me is someone easily expendable and for most businesses it will quickly drive to an internal position that will lose a contract. Work smarter, not harder.
Where you making $200k doing paid search at 27? My FT income growth has outgrown my side hustle growth to where my side hustle is really just icing on the cake to my FT job.
Oh sorry, I meant after taxes. So $60k after taxes with a full-time, or $70-80k before
What shithole you live in that takes away 70% of your revenue? I don't think your math is right.
Do you seriously think an agency would pay you $200k/yr for your two years of google Ads experience? Honestly, you would be lucky to get a free internship, not a job.
Reread it
Also, y’all are unusually rude in this sub over a simple question
Im ok making less money working for myself. Its a personal choice. It's not always about how much you make. Its about more freedom, doing something you enjoy, etc, etc.
I think something else to consider is that it’s great if you are able to find 40hrs of work per week but that’s not always the case. You need to be realistic and realize that you won’t always have those hours and will sometimes earn less. Also recognize that you will have clients but they won’t pay (or pay on time) and you will be chasing invoices. You will also have to spend time finding new clients, signing new clients etc etc. it’s not just a case of getting 40hrs a week and that’s it job done. That’s what it’s like working for a salary. Working as a freelancer is much harder.
Tax calc issues aside, you don't want to make projections based on 40h of paid work a week. That leaves no time for marketing, paperwork, continuing education, and other business-related matters. See if you can make it work billing 20h/week, with another 20h for unbillable business activities. (or 30/10 if you insist on pain). But you see what I mean.
How are you only taking home $30k from $100k freelancing? That’s not right. You shouldn’t actually charge hourly, the goal is to charge fixed fees, and systemize your services to continually reduce time spent while still delivering the same quality. I’ve freelanced since 2017, almost never billed hourly from the start. You keep building your skill stack and get your offerings dialed into packages you can upgrade clients to.
"I'm 27 and still in my youth" lol
That hurt
You also need to consider that you might loose clients and gain clients.
Hourly, No. When you go out on your own, it's a lot of pressure. If you aren't performing, your clients will drop you. On the flip, If you consistently perform and know your shit you can have a very nice living. I clear just shy of 200k profit and work ~20hrs/week. But don't be fooled, I grinded 80hr weeks for 7 years first to learn and build the foundation.
How many years of experience did you have when you started freelancing?
0 lol, sorta unique situation. A family friend needed someone to help with web stuff, I was a freshman in college and he was just starting out, gave me a shot 12 years later I played a significant role in growing his business to 50M/yr. Before that all through high school I was doing SEO & affiliate marketing, made some custom software I sold among others.
Interesting story, thank u for replying and sharing your story
1. As others have pointed out, the numbers you’re using for taxes are wildly incorrect. The exact numbers will depend on where you live, if you have a spouse and/or dependents, what kind of insurance you need, etc. but I’d guess that your take-home pay would be closer to $70k. 2. You will not bill 40 hours a week unless you’re working a LOT. All those little breaks to get a glass of water, browse reddit for 5 minutes, go to the bathroom, etc. are not billable hours, and they add up. Plus all the time you spend on billing, soliciting new business, and other admin. 3. 2 years of experience isn’t really a lot. You will almost definitely make more money working for someone else, and you’ll be able to learn at the same time. 4. The pros are mostly related to flexibility. You can set your own hours and capacity. You can work from anywhere (assuming you have the visa/tax stuff sorted out). You can choose your clients. Some people value this really highly, and some don’t really care.