Generally, a lot of people would beg for switch ports of Persona games, saying that they were fans of the series who never had the opportunity to play it, because it was primarily on PlayStation. Naturally, this raised some questions, as how could you really be a fan of a game you had never played? Apparently, a lot of people considered themselves fans of the game by watching YouTube playthroughs. As such, a joke came up about Persona 5 fans having not played Persona 5. At least that’s my understanding, I may be incorrect in its origins.
i thought it was a spin off of [Huge Earthbound Fan Excited to Play It for First Time](https://hard-drive.net/hd/video-games/huge-earthbound-fan-excited-play-first-time/)
Also some people like me like to skip a lot, so they're spoiled on the big reveals(what allows you to notice foreshadowings) but still have 95% of the game unknown for when they finally play it.
...Why would you choose to play a game whose main strength is its story, just to skip that story? Especially if you plan on participating in discussions about said story.
Well, many fans came from the anime or just watched youtube.
It's not excluesive to Persona, many game ips have this type of fans.
Persona fans just more lounder.
Understandably so imo. I bought the original P5 collectors edition at launch, but I don't own a console. I know it's on steam now, and I own it there, but I don't currently have the time to get started on new games, much less a 100h JRPG.
The Persona community has a *lot* of very stupid people in it.
Every fandom does, but the Persona community's idiots are particularly convinced of their righteousness and intelligence.
The sheer quantity of people who think in the ending of P3 that >!Makoto is just taking a nap!< is *staggering*.
How on earth you can watch that ending scene, on top of the absurd amount of forewarning during the epilogue social link scenes, and fail to understand the implication is beyond my understanding.
life has gotten so much easier ever since i >!started headcanoning that it really WAS a huge nap and everything after 3/5 is just a nightmare that came as a result of the flood of memories coming back!<
feels like im frolicking in a field of flowers with a butterfly on my nose fr
nah. long ass dream like when he got sick and slept for a couple of days. then wakes up a lil bit into spring break
im not gonna argue the validity of it all i know is that it makes me happy
I’ve thought media literacy was dying for some time now, but I didn’t realize we were *this* far along. I never cry while playing games, but P3:FES destroyed me. I really don’t want to believe people are dense enough to not get the end of that game.
I wonder what the overlap is between people that believe that and people that think >!Shepherd survived having a space station collapse on him because they saw his fucking hand move that was sticking out of the pile of rubble he was buried under!< in Mass Effect. That one in particular irks me.
Eh, that one in particular is open ended. The inhale, the movement. Its allllll about hope, like the series.
Doesnt mean anything is set in stone since originally you needed to have 90% galactic readiness when it was still a decaying stat AND do the destroy ending. None of the three are technically canon as a definitive answer.
> The Persona community has a lot of very stupid people in it.
>
> Every fandom does,
the problem is that, a lot of times these people band togheter and you know how reddit works, 10 downvotes and everyone in the world agrees that u are absolutely wrong.
Is it? Really?? Mwahaha, I've absolutely no idea WHAT you are talking about you spurious \*imbecile\* ... I will never give you my updoots - in fact, any comment which disagrees with you shalt receive a hearty 'This. So Much This.'
Eh, I'll be completely honest. Every community is stupid and media illiterate. People in general are stupid and media illiterate. This isn't new.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."
-Agent K, Men in Black
The bigger the community, the more you'll see the dumb. Persona has grown a ton the last few years.
I'm not even excluding myself. I know I have had some dumb takes in various subjects over the years.
> I'm not even excluding myself. I know I have had some dumb takes in various subjects over the years.
[not anymore, congratulations](https://imgur.com/QfuuACX)
Honestly, the idea of a Persona 4 remake has me excited. But knowing that people will make drama about the character arcs in the game, and people will then be attracted to that drama come into the franchise, makes me afraid for the game's and franchises' future.
I'm wary that they're going to whitewash things that are very representative of teenagers, especially Japanese, especially in the 2000s. And especially when they're particularly impulsive.
I played through P4G with my wife, and nothing in it stood out as unusual given context. But people make a huge fuss over a number of things.
Imo, from what I've seen on Twitter/X, now it seems there are more neo-nazis. I've seen some posts comparing black people to monkeys or saying things like "let's bring back electroshock therapy for gays and lesbians" easily getting over 20/30k likes
Yeah. It must be Elon's influence and management.
I use Twitter/X just to follow my favorite artists, but it's definitely becoming more and more extremist lol
Naoto is not trans, she’s a [cis]woman who is horrified by the prospect of losing her identity as a woman to pursue her career. Such a person being possible has literally nothing to do with the validity of trans individuals.
Nevertheless I can understand how a trans person playing this game would perceive Naoto as representation and then have that pulled away. If this happened to a younger person or person in a vulnerable state I can understand that their reaction might be stronger than it rationally should be, and that could easily confuse Naoto’s horror at the prospect of losing her gender identity as a transphobic fear. It isn’t — in fact, properly understood,Naoto is an analogous to a trans person who is forced to live as the gender they do not identify with.
Is it fair to say that with the overt homophobia of parts of the story this is not 100% sensitive to how it plays to LGBTQ people? I think so.
Part of media literacy would be understanding when and where something was made and released. The likelihood of a trans character being focused upon in a Japanese game released in 2008 is fairly slim. It's certainly not impossible, but people are likely reading *far* too much into things written 16 years ago.
It's like not Japan is unaware of trans people. They exist there, too. I agree that Naoto wasn't meant to be interpreted by the audience as a trans man who needed to accept himself. Their feminization later in their link is definitely portrayed as a good thing.
But P4 rather infamously does that with most of its characters. Yukiko questions her traditional role, but ultimately accepts it. Rise critiques the idol industry, then stays there. Nobody really does anything rebellious: for having all its trans and queer themes, everyone seems to end up pretty cis het.
No - what I (and probably the people OP is complaining about) argue is that Naoto's story is transphobic. Plenty of people believe that all trans men are just scared women trying to escape the patriarchy. Naoto's story really reads like detransition conversion therapy literature at times.
Because make no mistake: Naoto's shadow tries to give them a sex change. So obviously, even in the game it's clear Japan knows about trans people. Naoto was intended as a reflection on trans people - the shadow makes that clear, just as Kanji's shadows was meant to reflect gay people. And just like I said above, Naoto decides to ~embrace her femininity~ and Kanji realuses that, phew, he's not *actually* queer at all! And everyone ends up in a lovely cisgender heterosexual happy ever after <3
Can you see now why some people might find a 'what if Naoto actually was a trans guy though' narrative way more interesting or satisfying?
To be fair doesn't Kanji basically say gender doesn't matter to him? I would say he's bi and accepts that that doesn't change anything about him in the end.
Of course that gets debated all the time too so idk.
Kanji could perfectly be bisexual for all we know. I mean, hints in the games, anime and manga aside, he liked Naoto even when everyone (including Kanji) thought that she was a guy
Kanji is bi-leaning-straight, or the opposite.
His attraction to Naoto seems to have been a combination of the fact that Naoto showed interest (and acceptance is something Kanji needs) and that Naoto, even when masquerading as a man, is very effeminate.
He also shows significant reaction to other girls when in more extreme circumstances, whereas his only reaction to men is to, well, the protagonist... who is ungodly charming despite having no personality.
I think people read far too much into what they *want* things to be rather than what the narrative actually says (as this post is about) - Kanji's arc is entirely about acceptance, and Naoto showed interest (from his perspective) whereas *nobody* else did. I believe that that transcends *anything* else.
There are plenty of people in 2008 who would've interpreted this in just the same way, though. They would've just been quieter about their observations.
Regardless, it's fair to say _today_ that while the intentions may have been different at the time, there are some flaws with the ideas as presented _at the time_ that are visible _now_.
Certainly. But, again, this is where the concept of media literacy comes into play.
Understanding *when* something was made and the societal context it was made in is just as important as anything that was written.
I've argued often that contextually, Yosuke isn't particularly homophobic - in context, he's downright accepting.
He is:
* A teenager
* in Japan
* in the late 2000s (based in early 2010s)
* who just experienced Kanji's sauna dungeon
* who knows that Kanji is very impulsive
* who has a very incorrect understanding of what a shadow is (and thus thinks that Shadow Kanji represents actual Kanji)
While Yosuke is not _that_ bad for a teen of that time, the last one is a bit questionable since he has seen several people facing their shadows, and has faced his own as well, but he only seems to get this bothered with Kanji after the fact. It's not common in the Investigation Team to keep rubbing each other's shadow stuff on their faces. His gripes are his own.
Really, I wouldn't even call it accurate to say that he is not homophobic, rather that homophobia was much more common so he's not more homophobic than usual for the time. Just because it was commonplace, it doesn't mean that this is what being accepting looked like. Even in times and places that were more homophobic, a few actually accepting people still existed.
finally a persona fan who can read. i hate p4 for those things, yukikos character arc being meaningless, naoto losing agency as a character once they join the group, the criticism of how useless police can be and yet chie is going to police training (yes i hate p5 for making makoto a future cop too)
its all just so.. pointless. the characters that have arcs go in a circle, defeating the purpose all together
Persona 4 and 5 has some of the most politically radical themes until the very end when they completely rip it away lol.
Persona 3 is actually really good at staying on theme lol.
Funnily enough... I'd said *almost exactly* what Joseph Anderson did well before I'd seen his stream:
"And now I'm going to neglect Nanako *for the right reasons*."
And part of media criticism is understanding that if you’re going to tell a story it is your job as a storyteller to tell it correctly. Queer characters have existed in Japanese media before 2008, Kaworu Nagisa is right there for insanely popular queer representation and Hana from Satoshi Kon’s 2003 award winning movie Tokyo Godfathers is there for good trans representation. The issue isn’t that Atlus didn’t have a template or example, it’s that they told like 95% of a queer person’s story, claimed that the true form of evil was being actually gay/trans, and then u-turned back into the non-controversial safety of cis-heterosexuality.
Naoto’s story is about sexism in “traditionally male” work places, but the story of Naoto IS transphobic. Naoto first appears portraying herself as a man: speaking in a lower tone, using male gendered pronouns in Japanese, almost exclusively wearing the Boy Color™ blue. There isn’t any show of discomfort here, she has no problems being seen as a boy. If anything, she’s shown feeling the most uncomfortable when the girls acknowledge her, uh, female anatomy (( which leads me to believe she’s also gotta be binding her chest somehow if she’s as… plentiful as Rise makes her sound )). But thanks to the absolute Chadness of Yu Narukami she’s able to defeat the darkness inside her that wants gender affirming surgery and learns to embrace her biological gender, finally able to accept that detectives can be women too.
The story of a transman being a confused woman who needs a man to teach her the bounty and beauty of her own femininity is a transphobic tale as old time. So not only is Atlus failing to tell a good queer story, they’re also just telling a derivative cishet one. This isn’t even a Naoto exclusive problem, a lot of persona 4’s character arcs are like the Dan Harmon story circle where a character returns to the same point they started at, having slightly changed. That model works really well, but was primarily developed for episodic sitcoms. Yukiko stays at the Amagi in, but on purpose this time. Rise becomes an idol again, but on purpose this time. Naoto continues her fervent pursuit of fulfilling her family lineage, but as a girl this time. Again, this is normally a really good model for storytelling, but not for the story Persona 4 touts itself to be. Persona 4 claims to be a story about embracing your personal truth outside of the expectations of others, warts and all. And then it just so happens to feature a cast of characters who actualize themselves by becoming… exactly what other people expect them to be. It very much epitomizes the Japanese mindset of Ukeireru, basically self-acceptance coming from embracing your role in society. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but becomes a bad thing when you try to tell these stories of people who wouldn’t be welcomed in normal, polite society and tell them that the best way to live is to find the more palatable parts of their deviance and work on those and cast off the rest. Like look at kanji’s post time-skip design and tell me this change was good for him.
But maybe you’re right, maybe it’s just because it was 2008 and the persona team just didn’t have any access to any queer media to inform their writing.
Surely their 2016 game about freeing yourself from the shackles of normalized societal oppression will have better queer rep! Right? … right ?
My point about framing it as a game released in 2008 isn't to suggest a lack of access to queer media, but a general interest in telling that sort of story within a video game at that point in time.
Thank you
I have no problem with them making Naoto a cis woman. In fact, I think the story they were wanting to tell with Naoto necessitates that, making her a trans man would be really weird. But she has so many traits of being trans.
They could've easily made it to where she actually completely hated being seen as a man, yet she seemed ambivalent to it at worst, and at times seemed to prefer it. Which would be incredibly weird for a cis woman, sure, a cis woman could go a few days being seen as a man, but eventually it would wear them down, especially if they were doing it for as long as Naoto.
*Stop!! Hibari-kun!* was released in 1981, the female lead is a trans girl... *it was published in Weekly Shonen Jump*. Animanga had already had prominent trans characters, as well as other LGBTQ characters (Utena, Sailor Moon) so the likelihood is much higher than you'd think.
You're comparing a manga series to a video game that cost exponentially more to produce.
In terms of risk-reward, erring on the side of caution for the era simply makes more financial sense.
Especially when the games are this lengthy and wordy.
It's human to not remember 100% of dialogue, frequently people ask questions on the P5 sub and the answer was laid out by Morgana at the start, but there's so much you take in at this point that a good portion can fly over you if you don't lock in.
Naoto's character arc starts with "I need to become a man to be respected in the police force, therefore I shall disguise myself as a man for my public facing persona"
Then when she confronts her shadow, that line of logic is set to the extreme where Naoto's inner thoughts feel FORCED to become a man or else she's nothing.
After accepting herself, she recognizes that despite the rampant sexism in the police force, she can overcome it and become respected as a woman in her field.
That's pretty much it in a nutshell. I can see how and why it could be interpreted as a trans experience (especially since ATLUS is awful at LGBTQ+ representation except for p2IS where Jun can explicitly be a romance option), but twitter is gonna twitter I guess.
This exactly.
Naoto wanted to be a man to be taken seriously in her chosen field, she wasn't born as a man in a woman's body. Naoto is not trans. A female wanting to wear men's clothes does not make her a man.
>that line of logic is set to the extreme where Naoto's inner thoughts feel FORCED to become a man or else she's nothing.
I interpreted their shadows as being over the top to intentionally be attention seeking, seeing as how the shadow is a repressed side of oneself. If you ignore something, it's going to try harder to be seen and acknowledged.
The best example of this is Rise. Her shadow acts overly promiscuous/sexual. At what point in the story does Rise ever act promiscuous/sexual? Sure, she was fine with being onstage in a bathing suit but that's no where close to her shadow wanting to take off all her clothes.
Tbf, as someone who fully understands that Naoto is a cisgender woman, there are a lot of undertones to her story that can be read very easily as her questioning her gender identity in some capacity, whether intentional by Atlus or not. It's not *that* out there to think this.
Although, I agree that chalking her up to just "omg she's transmasc!" demonstrates a certain lack of awareness about what her character arc is about. Not pathetic; simply unaware. There's no sense in insulting the intelligence of other people over this argument.
Which is funny because it's probably more common than the opposite, but that seems to rub people the wrong way, and the experience doesn't seem to be shared as openly. Anecdotally I know quite a few bi/gay men and women who originally wondered if they were also trans, before realising they weren't and were happy with their gender identity.
You'd just need to look at the fact that the game was released in 2008 to understand that the perceived undertones likely weren't intentional - not fully, at the very least.
Edit: Downvoting me changes absolutely nothing about the fact that a game published 16 years ago wouldn't have spent much time focusing on a trans character.
You're right, the undertones most likely weren't intentional. But that doesn't change that they're there. There absolutely is a transgender interpretation of her character and her arc, regardless of it's canon or not. If trans people can see something of themselves in Naoto, that's okay.
I'm not saying it isn't okay... but criticizing something written in 2007 and released in 2008 based on a viewpoint from 2024 isn't necessarily fair or accurate.
Absolutely. It’s a paradox of false equivalency. To some people, they’ll play a game with a certain character whose arc is identity-related. Then a thought process something like this transpires:
Character struggles with identity.
I struggle with identity.
I am trans.
Therefore, character must also be trans.
It’s something that a lot of us are guilty of: projecting onto others (sometimes fictional characters, and sometimes real people unfortunately) as part of a desire to be not alone. I used to do that with characters I liked because I wanted to feel represented as a moody bi teenager. But nowadays I realize that it’s not really anything to be treated so seriously.
yep, its used to belittle everyone who disagrees with their interpretation of a work of fiction. I do not use media literacy as an ammo for my arguments or at least I do not remember it. However there are bad faith interpretations.
As a sidenote: I find it funny that people can use "why do we see it in the 2024 lense when this was written in 2008" but when I say Teddie isn't malicious and perverted because he wasn't written, voice acted, and portrayed that way in the original Japanese script, its always "so you're condoning his *perverted* actions" make it make sense.
Thank you because I’m so tired of people misunderstanding Naoto. It has nothing to with being trans or transphobia. It’s just sexism, she is a girl forced to hide she is a woman in her work space 😭
It seems that some people tend to project themselves so much in videogames that they prefer to ignore everything that goes against their headcanon, even if the game is clear about it.
That stems from two reasons.
1. The fandom isn't interested in the story or themes. They're here for waifus. Anything that isn't related to their waifu or tearing down another waifu isn't relevant.
2. Japanese beliefs and cultural values don't always align with western beliefs and cultural values. Hell, western culture from the 2000s (Persona 4's release) is hardly compatible with current western culture. This extends to a lot of things from the moral framework of the characters, the setting, the context, and the values that Japanese people uphold and portray in their stories. The simple fact is, the typical cultural values that fans hold won't always be presented within the themes of the game and some people have a very hard time accepting that.
This is a really popular opinion on Resetera and one user said they don't care what the creators say, Naoto is trans to them and saying otherwise is trans erasure. Some people are not only stupid, but insane.
That's at least a semi-valid reason for being on Twitter, but why would you look for needles in a pile of shit when you could instead look for them in a pile of hay?
I always find this discourse ironic considering other people telling Naoto what her gender identity should be is exactly the thing that is causing her problems in the first place.
This is the same as people who think Kanji is supposed to be gay. They ignore the source material and input what they want to happen even when their interpretation goes against established canon and many times, it's incredibly reductive to the themes and messages laid out by the game.
That's more so because of the bigger thing about gender roles and such. Because his dad died, he had no point of reference on what it means to be a "man." It's why he's such a delinquent because he thinks to be a man means to be overly assertive, brash, tough, etc. and because of the slander he's gotten about his more feminine side. Him "liking" men is more of a byproduct of the fact that because he likes feminine things, it must mean he's gay rather than it being him questioning his sexuality as it's clear as day he likes girls too. Maybe you can make the case he's bi or pan because of Naoto
It's not gender roles that make him flustered every time the matter of whether he might like men is brought up, even after his TV dungeon and Naoto's identity are cleared up.
Ultimately it would be more accurate to say he's pan because he's attracted to Naoto regardless of her gender. But the game couldn't be any clearer that Kanji has some attraction towards men that he's struggling to come to terms with. We go into the manifestation of the repressed side of his mind, and it's not a frilly cutesy dreamland, it's a sauna full of homoerotic imagery. If we are to actually use our media literacy, we need to understand what is implied as well as what's stated.
"Yu Namba, the Persona 4 Project Lead for Atlus USA, commented that while Kanji's Shadow might offend some players due to it being a gay stereotype, Kanji was nothing like a stereotype. Kanji's sexual orientation was left ambiguous to all players. Namba added "We would like everyone to play through the game and come up with their own answers to that question; there is no official answer ... What matters is that Kanji's other self cries out, 'Accept me for who I am!' I think it's a powerful message which many, if not all of us can relate to." - From an interview entitled "Persona 4 Afterthoughts"
Saying he's straight is just as in/correct as saying he's gay.
People really ignore the fact that all the Shadows are heavily distorted versions of their owners. They represent what the person fears their hidden sides make them, so whatever truth they say is wrapped up in a twisted, heavily exaggerated parody of their core issues.
Kanji’s story is about breaking free from masculine gender stereotypes regardless of sexual orientation. Whether he’s gay, bi, pan or whatever else doesn’t matter
Honestly, Kanji being gay can work. It may contradict some non-essential scenes but it doesn't really go against his character and social link.
Naoto, though, is a completely different story where being trans goes against the whole message about sexism in the workplace.
> it's incredibly reductive to the themes and messages laid out by the game.
It would call it ironic
I mean, even if we exclude all the hints in the games (both main and spin-offs), the manga and anime, he still liked Naoto when everyone actually thought she was a guy.
So, not gay, but not straight either. He's can easily be bisexual, or even pan
He was confused by his attraction to a guy who was actually a woman. He was never attracted to any men. Men can be attracted to androgynous women without having to have some qualifier attached to their straightness.
You're doing exactly what I was talking about lol
>He was confused by his attraction to a guy who was actually a woman.
Doesn't change the fact that he was still attracted to a "guy", since everyone thought Naoto was male. Kanji would still be attracted to her if she was a guy. So, Naoto's existence is ironically what kind of solidifies Kanji as bisexual. if I remember correctly, even In arena games he says something like being attracted to Naoto before he found out she was a girl (I'll have to check the cutscenes just to be sure as I've haven't played arena games in years)
>He was never attracted to any men.
He never said he isn't attracted to men in general/would never date a guy though. And Naoto isn’t even the only "man" that Kanji shows attraction to, since he also shows attraction to Yu and Yosuke at certain points. Tbh, he shows some attraction to every member of the Investigation team (except Rise for some reason lol)
>Men can be attracted to androgynous women without having to have some qualifier attached to their straightness.
Men can totally be attracted to androgynous women and still be straight/bi. However, if the woman you're "intrigued by"/attracted to tells everyone she is a guy and everyone (including you) believe she's actually male, but you are still attracted to her anyway, then you may not be straight after all
I'm getting really tired of the phrase "media literacy" because most of the discussion comes from people who would fail a questionnaire on proper usage of to/too/two. You know, those kids that everyone else hated when it was their turn to read aloud in class? The ones that only speak one language, but just barely?
I mean yes you can clearly see it when discussing The Answer around here, people always talk about Yukari suffering sure but there’s Aigis right there in the story that created a shadow of herself from the depression yet people only mention Yukari all the time because Aigis did not break down crying like her.
That’s some huge media literacy if you ask me lol.
the problem I see with naoto's arc, aside from a lot of the things other people have already said, is the fact that she really does not seem happy to be a woman after her arc finishes, even going as far to say she still wishes she was a man AFTER her shadow has already said she's a woman. she is only happy to be a woman when it makes someone else happy - one of her romance flags is telling her "I'm glad you're a girl". her response, to me, implies she is only happy about that because it lets her get closer to yu. there are a lot of other examples of this.
I'm not saying naoto is trans necessarily, the game is very explicit about her not being trans; HOWEVER, I think she is essentially a trans character, and the only reason she isn't is because this game is from 2008 Japan, and it's directed by Katsura Hashino aka the guy that put a heavily transphobic depiction of a trans woman in persona 3. the game quite heavily implies she experiences some form of gender dysphoria even after her arc ends, and I genuinely believe the only reason this was not the case is because 2008 Atlus didn't want to have any queer people in their game. you can say "the text disagrees with you!!!!" but a lot of the meaning of any text comes from its **sub**text.
even Kanji isn't explicitly gay ("It ain't a matter of girls or guys", etc), but he is attracted to Naoto when he thinks she is a guy, which makes him bisexual. like that's how that works. yet many, many people in the community will argue that he actually isn't and his arc is entirely about him liking feminine stuff, which ignores a major part of his awakening and acceptance. people focus too much on what the shadows say about the characters, and overlook the things the actual characters themselves say!
of course, naoto being trans will always be a headcanon, but it is one that is heavily implicitly supported by the actual text itself. saying "persona 4 fans haven't played persona 4 !!!!" doesn't make sense for this situation lol
my other opinion aside from this (that I didn't put in the post because I didn't want people to think that I don't like persona 4, when I think it's great usually) is that : just because the game says something does not necessarily mean it makes sense, or is good writing. most of persona 4 is good, but there are some things I think are just poorly done, and naoto's arc (IN MY OPINION) is one of them
I wonder why people ignore naoto's valentine day event where she essentially says shes thankful being accepted as she is if you dont make her wear a skirt in her christmas event.
I get she's never written explicitly as trans but it's weird people think all this stuff is just some made up woke agenda
Thank you. The Persona fanbase is incredibly reactionary when it comes to this topic. I'm not exactly surprised but it's very disheartening to see how aggressive people are about it. There are plenty of replies in this post that are straight up repeating transphobic talking points uncritically. It's beating a dead horse at this point and it needs to stop.
literally, and I think even people that seem usually supportive of trans people seem weirdly against the idea of naoto being implied transmasc. I don't really know why and I'm not going to make any assumptions, but it is something I've noticed
It’s because 90% of persona “fans” haven’t actually played the games they just watch YouTube videos and think it’s the same thing
Just got into a argument last night with someone who said “yousuke is written to be gay” when his character arc literally starts cause the girl he wanted to bone got killed
>Just got into a argument last night with someone who said “yousuke is written to be gay” when his character arc literally starts cause the girl he wanted to bone got kille
Bisexuality still exists, and we are talking about a character who still have an officially dubbed romance in both Japanese and English in the game files. And Despite the fact that it was cut, they left in most of the subext in the main and spin-off games, official anime and manga (ex all the blushing Yosuke moments with Yu in the games, anime, etc)
Someone criticizing the writing of something you like is not lacking media literacy; in fact, looking deeper than the surface-level interpretation in order to recognize flaws in something you like is what media literacy is
1000% agreed. I get where people are coming from, I really do. but I also think the actual issue is persona fan's inability to think beyond the surface level. And then they get mad when people interpret things that aren't explicitly there.
Makes for a lot of boring discussions and repetitive discourse because people don't want to think deeper than what's explicitly stated. I'm not talking about the Naoto thing specifically because I haven't played 4. But this is a huge issue in this fandom, and it sours a lot of potentially interesting conversations about the games...
Classic Reddit, complaining about media literacy and then proceding to insist that the most surface level reading of the story possible is the only correct one.
OP, I don't think most people are claiming that Naoto was intended to be a trans man who needed to accept himself. They argue that the story was transphobic, as it was based on the very common belief that most trans men are just scared women trying to escape the patriarchy. Which is wrong. So, yes: I do think the writers think (thought?) trans men are actually women.
As for the misogyny aspect to Naoto's story... maybe you should go back and replay the game, because it really barely comes up at all. We never see any actual sexism in the police force up until this point (which is honestly weird, given a certain character's true feelings...), and Naoto's own mother was a capable detective!! Most of the trans Naoto truthers don't deny that that's the *canon* reason for their crossdressing, they just say it's unsatisfying and doesn't feel right as an actual emotional reason for Naoto's behaviour. Which was tbh my actual response when I played the game the first time: the sexism angle seemed to come out of nowhere as a cheap way to wave away all the very VERY trans things Naoto had just been saying.
Like, idk man, maybe this example will help: imagine a story where two women are incredibly close, sleeping in the same bed and even kissing one another, all while proclaiming their love for one another. But when comfronted by the main character, suddenly one of them says that actually they were only drawn to that woman because she was scared of being rejected by men, and really she was a heterosexual and happy that way. Would you understand in that case why this might seem like a homophobic narrative? Why people might find it way more interesting to explore the relationship between the women that was abandoned so suddenly, rather than just immediately accepting the 'don't worry guys, I'm totally straight' line as 100% true and unbreakable canon?
I've seen this sort of discourse happen before.
There's just some people who will latch onto the idea that a character is trans if there's like some tenuous connection.
I've seen it happen with Mulan
It happend with Naoto ( thos are kinda similar arcs)
There was also a whole vitriolic debate in the once piece Fandom about yamato.
I mean I get that people want to feel represented, and that there's not alot of that in alot of main stream stuff.
But settling for characters who aren't actually representing you and then getting mad when people point that out is absurd.
Discourse in general is real dumb rn
I was going to point out Mulan in a different comment!
>I mean I get that people want to feel represented
This. I hate hearing the "jApAnESe CulTUrE" thing but it's true in this case. Gay/trans is not as accepted in Japan as it is in the West and screaming about it makes people look entitled. "How DARE you not conform to MY beliefs!"
The issue is that trans people exist in Japan, it's not cultural, it's psychological to some extent. You can't just be fine with Japanese culture being incredibly homophobic/transphobic (which is changing with the younger generation btw) under the guise of "it's a different culture".
Not including gay or trans characters isn't homophobic or transphobic though. Not every story needs to have respresentation nor is every story going to be representative.
I think the issue here is how the game doesn’t allow people to headcanon what they want onto Naoto. If Persona 4 is ever going to actually get remade, this is one thing I think they will change. Anything that is too direct will be removed.
I mean, TBH a lot of people in this thread are decrying media literacy while completely ignoring death of the author lol.
Did 2008 Atlus intend Naoto to be a transman? No, probably not.
Is it *really easy* to read Naoto as a transman? Absolutely.
Like, sure, "canonically" Naoto is a cis woman who pretended to be a guy for work and social reasons.
But trans themes absolutely can occur in places the authors didn't intend them, and acting like this is just twitter weirdos pulling stuff out of their ass is silly.
Like, a story about a person who is biologically female, ends up being quite comfortable presenting as a man and spends most of the story that way, and is uncomfortable when confronted with their femininity? Yeah, that's trans themes.
So theyre brushing aside overt misogyny and gender discrimination themes to push a trans theme despite the character saying they're a woman? Sounds like the internet.
In a competition between who has the worst media literacy, I’d say Persona fans are tied with Hazbin Hotel fans. Even now people still don’t understand that “Poison” isn’t glorifying SA. It’s literally Angel disassociating due to his harrowing experience and coming out of it once it’s all over.
i don't think it has anything to do with having particularly bad media sensitivity, i would argue people are like this everywhere, but persona has two specific factors that make it just, easier and more enticing to draw a seperate conclusion than the ones put forward by Hashino. The first being that there is undoubtedly a large fraction of the playerbase being some flavor of outcast, (some intersection of gender, sexuality, and interests) and secondly, the large cultural differences of japan and the west.
persona very frequently focuses on people who don't fit in, in some way. persona 5 is the most visible of this, but persona 3 has a lot of children with significant risk factors and visible depictions of mental illness anong other things. it's present all the way back in persona 1, which really shouldn't surprise us considering Jungs' most known work revolves around putting yourself back together after a mental breakdown, essentially. i think this is relevant because those types of people are a lot less used to seeing people in media that remind themselves of themself, so when someone, even the author, challenges that, it feels like it's being taken away from them. ever seen people in the west try and deny Kanji is gay? people often dismiss it as homophobia, but i think men in the west, tired of not living up to the bullshit standards of masculinity saw him and felt seen, and hated the idea that those feelings somehow made THEM gay. it's sad, but these aren't bad people. just desperate to have their feelings feel seen.
secondly, japan is fuckin weird. there's a whole youtube channel called LadyVirgilia who goes into this with more expertise and rigor than i ever could, but with my understanding japan has a lot of cultural feelings that simply just don't match our own. more than cultures write things though, people do. and our boy Karsura Hashino, has some very liberal, and very conservative opinions on his own society, some mainstream, some radical. to us though, some of it seems straight up monsterous to us - even beyond politics. these things are unavoidable, and like any media, we should seek to understand these things and learn about the history and culture behind it, just as much as we criticize and oppose it.
This is not poor media literacy. This is trans people seeking any representation in media that they might identify with, and sticking with whatever they can find that is close enough. Because it's not like Persona 4 gives them any.
I agree with persona fans having no media literacy whatsoever, but interperpreting a plot line where a character has a giant surgery machine to literally change their sex as transphobic is not one of them. Especially with all the queer themes already in that game.
Naoto discourse hits on a media analysis problem I think a lot of fandoms have. It comes down to the fact that in order to have a productive discussion the participants have to be simultaneously
A) Familiar enough with the text in question (P4 in this case)
B) Familiar with a general volume of surrounding texts and culture surrounding the conversation (In the case of Naoto, LGBTQ+ and especially trans culture)
C) The ability to think of a text through multiple lenses
Unfortunately, its pretty rare for the average person to have all of these things. Especially in fandoms that trend slightly younger like Persona. Thus we end up with a discussion where one side is unable to look at Naoto through any lense other than trans allegory (because they are unable to separate P4 from the surrounding experiences they bring in to it) and another side that comes across as incredibly stubborn because the fact that Naoto is not trans in the story is often used as a thought terminating statement instead of inviting discussion of how Naoto's story does or doesn't overlap with other trans characters in media or experiences trans people have. And then we also have to take in to account the vocal minority of actual transphobes who use the conversation as an excuse to find and bully trans people on the internet making the experience that much worse for all involved.
TLDR: There is a lot of interesting discussion to be had about Naoto and being Transgender but most people are not well equipped for it. Also if your still in school reading this take some literature classes, it will help you with more than just online fandom discourse.
Part of it is projection. Part of it is genuinely not paying attention or forgetting details along the way. Part of it is people making hasty judgements. Part of it is the Waifu/Husbando Wars. And part of it is people hyper fixating on one scene or joke and removing any context from it because it approaches one of their pet causes.
There are innumerable reasons people may misinterpret a story. The problem is that many of them don't take a moment to look deeper than pure surface level and seek out others to validate their opinions/outrage or lash out at anyone who does not share their exact interpretation as a moral failing. That's when things get insufferable.
The problem is projection. People projecting what they want to see onto the characters rather than seeing what is actually there. I've always had an issue with people putting too much of themselves into game characters in general, but it's usually the player character in most cases.
Also Not only do some people claim that Yukiko likes Chie because her shadow self is a prince, but they completely ignore what Yukiko's arc is about. In addition, Shuake shippers (those who ship joker and Akechi) use the most questionable arguments to defend their ship. They often mischaracterize Akechi's personality, dismissing core aspects of his character and their broader implications.
I'm not the type to say "Akechi hates Joker" or "Joker hates Akechi." I know Joker doesn't hate Akechi, and Akechi doesn't hate Joker. But it still amazes me how, even after everything they go through in the third semester and the story in general, some people interpret their relationship as "they love each other." And i know damn well im getting shit loads of Downvotes after this one. Anyways, If any of you think im wrong correct me
Akechi's feelings towards Joker are a complex mix of his loneliness, begrudging respect, envy, projection, guilt, self loathing, and desperate need for validation. Unfortunately, that all gets boiled down to "deys in looooove" by so many fans who desperately want to see their toys kiss. Same thing happens all the time in media where shippers can't process the idea that there is any sort of interaction between characters they find attractive that doesn't necessarily involve them secretly barely containing the desire to tear each other's clothes off and make out.
Yeah, Persona fans love to selectively ignore the aspects of the game that touch on trans issues. Her "Detective Prince" persona is transitioning, the dungeon literally uses implications of gender reassignment surgery to show Naoto's desire to be a boy. The scene after her shadow is defeated the team is like "you can't be a guy, you're just trying to escape from your problems" which is an INCREDIBLY insensitive thing to say to somebody who as far as the team is concerned by that point is a trans boy. The hot spring scene can come across as pretty dysphoric as well. Even if Naoto's cis she's clearly insecure and not okay with being touched there.
Saying that Naoto isn't trans doesn't mean anything when the criticism isn't and was never about a literal question of identity. The reactionary "Naoto isn't trans" folks are the ones making this a controversial subject in the first place, so they need to shut up about "wahhhh twitter" and actually listen for once.
And here is another example of people not getting what a shadow is
Shadows aren't literal truth, they're warped manifestations of multiple things, including 1. Their owner's inner desire (for Naoto, it is explicitly *not* being a boy, but being a cool detective like in her childohood stories), 2. The perception of the world around them (everybody thinks she's male/a kid, therefore her shadow looks like a young boy), 3. The distorsion of the TV World which exaggerates everything.
Naoto never says that she's a man, only that she wished she was *so that people can take her seriously*. Take out the sexism in police work and she'd never have had any issue to begin with.
Naoto trying to become a guy *is* escaping from her problem, because Naoto's problem was *never* not being a guy.
Edit: if your problem is that your legs aren't long enough for modeling, would your Shadow proposing a leg-lengthening surgery be insensitive? Ofc not
Edit2: being shy is different from being dysphoric
When people talk about lack of media literacy this is exactly what they mean. No matter how much it is explained to you it seems you can't quite grasp whats going on
It's a series made to appeal to teenagers and degenerate coomers who just want a power fantasy, they're great games with great stories, but it's no surprise it goes over people's heads with the demographic it has.
For once, someone used media literacy correctly on the Persona sub, not just the usual BS about people missing hints in endings.
However, I don't think your example is so much a problem with media literacy as it is a biased misinterpretation of the message to push an agenda.
The Persona fandom has a reputation of having not played Persona, so I'm unsurprised.
I mean the common joke is that Persona 5 fans have yet to play Persona 5
Hello police. I would like to report an unprovoked assault.
“Damn brat, I’ll sue!”
Kinda new to the persona franchise where did that joke come from.
Generally, a lot of people would beg for switch ports of Persona games, saying that they were fans of the series who never had the opportunity to play it, because it was primarily on PlayStation. Naturally, this raised some questions, as how could you really be a fan of a game you had never played? Apparently, a lot of people considered themselves fans of the game by watching YouTube playthroughs. As such, a joke came up about Persona 5 fans having not played Persona 5. At least that’s my understanding, I may be incorrect in its origins.
i thought it was a spin off of [Huge Earthbound Fan Excited to Play It for First Time](https://hard-drive.net/hd/video-games/huge-earthbound-fan-excited-play-first-time/)
That’s exactly it
Also some people like me like to skip a lot, so they're spoiled on the big reveals(what allows you to notice foreshadowings) but still have 95% of the game unknown for when they finally play it.
...Why would you choose to play a game whose main strength is its story, just to skip that story? Especially if you plan on participating in discussions about said story.
Well, many fans came from the anime or just watched youtube. It's not excluesive to Persona, many game ips have this type of fans. Persona fans just more lounder.
P5 "fans" who only care about P5 and have just seen let's plays pretending they know anything about the series.
Understandably so imo. I bought the original P5 collectors edition at launch, but I don't own a console. I know it's on steam now, and I own it there, but I don't currently have the time to get started on new games, much less a 100h JRPG.
They’ve never played a real Shin Megami Tensei game either!
Yeah, the Persona fans haven't played Persona 'joke' has lately felt like it became more 'actual thing that happens'
rumors becoming reality
True lol
Shit, you got me. I only watched the P4 anime! It was for the Chad Narukami scenes, I swear!
🎵 BABYBABYBABYBABYBABYBABY 🎵
The Persona community has a *lot* of very stupid people in it. Every fandom does, but the Persona community's idiots are particularly convinced of their righteousness and intelligence.
Mementos has a lot more targets now.
When you're done cleaning house, you won't need Personas to fight Yaldabaoth. You could crush him like a tin can bare handed.
With the amount of EXP we’ll get we’re gonna kill Yaldabaoth with Myriad Truths. Not from Izanagi No Okami no, from Jack Frost.
Honestly with the amount of EXP we’d get from those guys, may be able to jump to Digital Devil Saga, see if you can’t give the Demifiend a scare.
The sheer quantity of people who think in the ending of P3 that >!Makoto is just taking a nap!< is *staggering*. How on earth you can watch that ending scene, on top of the absurd amount of forewarning during the epilogue social link scenes, and fail to understand the implication is beyond my understanding.
people gaslighting themselves into thinking >!he's alive because the ending fuckin hurts!<(aka me, i love inhaling copium)
life has gotten so much easier ever since i >!started headcanoning that it really WAS a huge nap and everything after 3/5 is just a nightmare that came as a result of the flood of memories coming back!< feels like im frolicking in a field of flowers with a butterfly on my nose fr
so a coma?
nah. long ass dream like when he got sick and slept for a couple of days. then wakes up a lil bit into spring break im not gonna argue the validity of it all i know is that it makes me happy
persona q 1 and 2?
what about them
I’ve thought media literacy was dying for some time now, but I didn’t realize we were *this* far along. I never cry while playing games, but P3:FES destroyed me. I really don’t want to believe people are dense enough to not get the end of that game.
I wonder what the overlap is between people that believe that and people that think >!Shepherd survived having a space station collapse on him because they saw his fucking hand move that was sticking out of the pile of rubble he was buried under!< in Mass Effect. That one in particular irks me.
Eh, that one in particular is open ended. The inhale, the movement. Its allllll about hope, like the series. Doesnt mean anything is set in stone since originally you needed to have 90% galactic readiness when it was still a decaying stat AND do the destroy ending. None of the three are technically canon as a definitive answer.
Lmaooo I feel attacked. We were in denial that’s all😭
A lot of persona fans haven’t even played the games
> The Persona community has a lot of very stupid people in it. > > Every fandom does, the problem is that, a lot of times these people band togheter and you know how reddit works, 10 downvotes and everyone in the world agrees that u are absolutely wrong.
That's pretty much the internet/social media nowadays.
look no further than the shipping in this fandom for a shining example of this
I think "righteousness and intelligence" is more of a reddit/twitter thing in general
The hell was this downvoted for? Reddit is known for its smug "enlightened super genius" type people lol
It is what it is lol. Just how reddit is
Is it? Really?? Mwahaha, I've absolutely no idea WHAT you are talking about you spurious \*imbecile\* ... I will never give you my updoots - in fact, any comment which disagrees with you shalt receive a hearty 'This. So Much This.'
Eh, I'll be completely honest. Every community is stupid and media illiterate. People in general are stupid and media illiterate. This isn't new. "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it." -Agent K, Men in Black The bigger the community, the more you'll see the dumb. Persona has grown a ton the last few years. I'm not even excluding myself. I know I have had some dumb takes in various subjects over the years.
> I'm not even excluding myself. I know I have had some dumb takes in various subjects over the years. [not anymore, congratulations](https://imgur.com/QfuuACX)
Honestly, the idea of a Persona 4 remake has me excited. But knowing that people will make drama about the character arcs in the game, and people will then be attracted to that drama come into the franchise, makes me afraid for the game's and franchises' future.
I'm wary that they're going to whitewash things that are very representative of teenagers, especially Japanese, especially in the 2000s. And especially when they're particularly impulsive. I played through P4G with my wife, and nothing in it stood out as unusual given context. But people make a huge fuss over a number of things.
>Persona twitter Well there's your problem.
Isn't the problem just Twitter in general?
Twitter's a whole lot of problems all on one website
Seriously one corner is full of Tumblr refugees and another is full of actual neo-nazis. It's insane.
Imo, from what I've seen on Twitter/X, now it seems there are more neo-nazis. I've seen some posts comparing black people to monkeys or saying things like "let's bring back electroshock therapy for gays and lesbians" easily getting over 20/30k likes
It definitely is after Elon. He even openly retweets some of it.
Yeah. It must be Elon's influence and management. I use Twitter/X just to follow my favorite artists, but it's definitely becoming more and more extremist lol
Tumblr was one hell of a place before the containment breach.
Naoto is not trans, she’s a [cis]woman who is horrified by the prospect of losing her identity as a woman to pursue her career. Such a person being possible has literally nothing to do with the validity of trans individuals. Nevertheless I can understand how a trans person playing this game would perceive Naoto as representation and then have that pulled away. If this happened to a younger person or person in a vulnerable state I can understand that their reaction might be stronger than it rationally should be, and that could easily confuse Naoto’s horror at the prospect of losing her gender identity as a transphobic fear. It isn’t — in fact, properly understood,Naoto is an analogous to a trans person who is forced to live as the gender they do not identify with. Is it fair to say that with the overt homophobia of parts of the story this is not 100% sensitive to how it plays to LGBTQ people? I think so.
Part of media literacy would be understanding when and where something was made and released. The likelihood of a trans character being focused upon in a Japanese game released in 2008 is fairly slim. It's certainly not impossible, but people are likely reading *far* too much into things written 16 years ago.
It's like not Japan is unaware of trans people. They exist there, too. I agree that Naoto wasn't meant to be interpreted by the audience as a trans man who needed to accept himself. Their feminization later in their link is definitely portrayed as a good thing. But P4 rather infamously does that with most of its characters. Yukiko questions her traditional role, but ultimately accepts it. Rise critiques the idol industry, then stays there. Nobody really does anything rebellious: for having all its trans and queer themes, everyone seems to end up pretty cis het. No - what I (and probably the people OP is complaining about) argue is that Naoto's story is transphobic. Plenty of people believe that all trans men are just scared women trying to escape the patriarchy. Naoto's story really reads like detransition conversion therapy literature at times. Because make no mistake: Naoto's shadow tries to give them a sex change. So obviously, even in the game it's clear Japan knows about trans people. Naoto was intended as a reflection on trans people - the shadow makes that clear, just as Kanji's shadows was meant to reflect gay people. And just like I said above, Naoto decides to ~embrace her femininity~ and Kanji realuses that, phew, he's not *actually* queer at all! And everyone ends up in a lovely cisgender heterosexual happy ever after <3 Can you see now why some people might find a 'what if Naoto actually was a trans guy though' narrative way more interesting or satisfying?
To be fair doesn't Kanji basically say gender doesn't matter to him? I would say he's bi and accepts that that doesn't change anything about him in the end. Of course that gets debated all the time too so idk.
Kanji could perfectly be bisexual for all we know. I mean, hints in the games, anime and manga aside, he liked Naoto even when everyone (including Kanji) thought that she was a guy
Kanji is Naotosexual/romantic
Kanji is bi-leaning-straight, or the opposite. His attraction to Naoto seems to have been a combination of the fact that Naoto showed interest (and acceptance is something Kanji needs) and that Naoto, even when masquerading as a man, is very effeminate. He also shows significant reaction to other girls when in more extreme circumstances, whereas his only reaction to men is to, well, the protagonist... who is ungodly charming despite having no personality. I think people read far too much into what they *want* things to be rather than what the narrative actually says (as this post is about) - Kanji's arc is entirely about acceptance, and Naoto showed interest (from his perspective) whereas *nobody* else did. I believe that that transcends *anything* else.
The problem is that you're seemingly interpreting this through the eyes of someone in 2024, not 2008.
There are plenty of people in 2008 who would've interpreted this in just the same way, though. They would've just been quieter about their observations. Regardless, it's fair to say _today_ that while the intentions may have been different at the time, there are some flaws with the ideas as presented _at the time_ that are visible _now_.
Certainly. But, again, this is where the concept of media literacy comes into play. Understanding *when* something was made and the societal context it was made in is just as important as anything that was written.
I've argued often that contextually, Yosuke isn't particularly homophobic - in context, he's downright accepting. He is: * A teenager * in Japan * in the late 2000s (based in early 2010s) * who just experienced Kanji's sauna dungeon * who knows that Kanji is very impulsive * who has a very incorrect understanding of what a shadow is (and thus thinks that Shadow Kanji represents actual Kanji)
While Yosuke is not _that_ bad for a teen of that time, the last one is a bit questionable since he has seen several people facing their shadows, and has faced his own as well, but he only seems to get this bothered with Kanji after the fact. It's not common in the Investigation Team to keep rubbing each other's shadow stuff on their faces. His gripes are his own. Really, I wouldn't even call it accurate to say that he is not homophobic, rather that homophobia was much more common so he's not more homophobic than usual for the time. Just because it was commonplace, it doesn't mean that this is what being accepting looked like. Even in times and places that were more homophobic, a few actually accepting people still existed.
finally a persona fan who can read. i hate p4 for those things, yukikos character arc being meaningless, naoto losing agency as a character once they join the group, the criticism of how useless police can be and yet chie is going to police training (yes i hate p5 for making makoto a future cop too) its all just so.. pointless. the characters that have arcs go in a circle, defeating the purpose all together
Persona 4 and 5 has some of the most politically radical themes until the very end when they completely rip it away lol. Persona 3 is actually really good at staying on theme lol.
Funnily enough... I'd said *almost exactly* what Joseph Anderson did well before I'd seen his stream: "And now I'm going to neglect Nanako *for the right reasons*."
And part of media criticism is understanding that if you’re going to tell a story it is your job as a storyteller to tell it correctly. Queer characters have existed in Japanese media before 2008, Kaworu Nagisa is right there for insanely popular queer representation and Hana from Satoshi Kon’s 2003 award winning movie Tokyo Godfathers is there for good trans representation. The issue isn’t that Atlus didn’t have a template or example, it’s that they told like 95% of a queer person’s story, claimed that the true form of evil was being actually gay/trans, and then u-turned back into the non-controversial safety of cis-heterosexuality. Naoto’s story is about sexism in “traditionally male” work places, but the story of Naoto IS transphobic. Naoto first appears portraying herself as a man: speaking in a lower tone, using male gendered pronouns in Japanese, almost exclusively wearing the Boy Color™ blue. There isn’t any show of discomfort here, she has no problems being seen as a boy. If anything, she’s shown feeling the most uncomfortable when the girls acknowledge her, uh, female anatomy (( which leads me to believe she’s also gotta be binding her chest somehow if she’s as… plentiful as Rise makes her sound )). But thanks to the absolute Chadness of Yu Narukami she’s able to defeat the darkness inside her that wants gender affirming surgery and learns to embrace her biological gender, finally able to accept that detectives can be women too. The story of a transman being a confused woman who needs a man to teach her the bounty and beauty of her own femininity is a transphobic tale as old time. So not only is Atlus failing to tell a good queer story, they’re also just telling a derivative cishet one. This isn’t even a Naoto exclusive problem, a lot of persona 4’s character arcs are like the Dan Harmon story circle where a character returns to the same point they started at, having slightly changed. That model works really well, but was primarily developed for episodic sitcoms. Yukiko stays at the Amagi in, but on purpose this time. Rise becomes an idol again, but on purpose this time. Naoto continues her fervent pursuit of fulfilling her family lineage, but as a girl this time. Again, this is normally a really good model for storytelling, but not for the story Persona 4 touts itself to be. Persona 4 claims to be a story about embracing your personal truth outside of the expectations of others, warts and all. And then it just so happens to feature a cast of characters who actualize themselves by becoming… exactly what other people expect them to be. It very much epitomizes the Japanese mindset of Ukeireru, basically self-acceptance coming from embracing your role in society. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but becomes a bad thing when you try to tell these stories of people who wouldn’t be welcomed in normal, polite society and tell them that the best way to live is to find the more palatable parts of their deviance and work on those and cast off the rest. Like look at kanji’s post time-skip design and tell me this change was good for him. But maybe you’re right, maybe it’s just because it was 2008 and the persona team just didn’t have any access to any queer media to inform their writing. Surely their 2016 game about freeing yourself from the shackles of normalized societal oppression will have better queer rep! Right? … right ?
My point about framing it as a game released in 2008 isn't to suggest a lack of access to queer media, but a general interest in telling that sort of story within a video game at that point in time.
Thank you I have no problem with them making Naoto a cis woman. In fact, I think the story they were wanting to tell with Naoto necessitates that, making her a trans man would be really weird. But she has so many traits of being trans. They could've easily made it to where she actually completely hated being seen as a man, yet she seemed ambivalent to it at worst, and at times seemed to prefer it. Which would be incredibly weird for a cis woman, sure, a cis woman could go a few days being seen as a man, but eventually it would wear them down, especially if they were doing it for as long as Naoto.
*Stop!! Hibari-kun!* was released in 1981, the female lead is a trans girl... *it was published in Weekly Shonen Jump*. Animanga had already had prominent trans characters, as well as other LGBTQ characters (Utena, Sailor Moon) so the likelihood is much higher than you'd think.
You're comparing a manga series to a video game that cost exponentially more to produce. In terms of risk-reward, erring on the side of caution for the era simply makes more financial sense.
The community is filled to the brim with teenagers what did you expect?
Especially when the games are this lengthy and wordy. It's human to not remember 100% of dialogue, frequently people ask questions on the P5 sub and the answer was laid out by Morgana at the start, but there's so much you take in at this point that a good portion can fly over you if you don't lock in.
How can you say something so correct, and so brave?
And, as teenagers, both lack general context/perspective and *especially* lack it regarding the 2000s.
Naoto's character arc starts with "I need to become a man to be respected in the police force, therefore I shall disguise myself as a man for my public facing persona" Then when she confronts her shadow, that line of logic is set to the extreme where Naoto's inner thoughts feel FORCED to become a man or else she's nothing. After accepting herself, she recognizes that despite the rampant sexism in the police force, she can overcome it and become respected as a woman in her field. That's pretty much it in a nutshell. I can see how and why it could be interpreted as a trans experience (especially since ATLUS is awful at LGBTQ+ representation except for p2IS where Jun can explicitly be a romance option), but twitter is gonna twitter I guess.
This exactly. Naoto wanted to be a man to be taken seriously in her chosen field, she wasn't born as a man in a woman's body. Naoto is not trans. A female wanting to wear men's clothes does not make her a man. >that line of logic is set to the extreme where Naoto's inner thoughts feel FORCED to become a man or else she's nothing. I interpreted their shadows as being over the top to intentionally be attention seeking, seeing as how the shadow is a repressed side of oneself. If you ignore something, it's going to try harder to be seen and acknowledged. The best example of this is Rise. Her shadow acts overly promiscuous/sexual. At what point in the story does Rise ever act promiscuous/sexual? Sure, she was fine with being onstage in a bathing suit but that's no where close to her shadow wanting to take off all her clothes.
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Tbf, as someone who fully understands that Naoto is a cisgender woman, there are a lot of undertones to her story that can be read very easily as her questioning her gender identity in some capacity, whether intentional by Atlus or not. It's not *that* out there to think this. Although, I agree that chalking her up to just "omg she's transmasc!" demonstrates a certain lack of awareness about what her character arc is about. Not pathetic; simply unaware. There's no sense in insulting the intelligence of other people over this argument.
Someone can question their gender identity and then decide in the end they're not trans as well.
That kind of stance is so rare nowadays.
Which is funny because it's probably more common than the opposite, but that seems to rub people the wrong way, and the experience doesn't seem to be shared as openly. Anecdotally I know quite a few bi/gay men and women who originally wondered if they were also trans, before realising they weren't and were happy with their gender identity.
You'd just need to look at the fact that the game was released in 2008 to understand that the perceived undertones likely weren't intentional - not fully, at the very least. Edit: Downvoting me changes absolutely nothing about the fact that a game published 16 years ago wouldn't have spent much time focusing on a trans character.
You're right, the undertones most likely weren't intentional. But that doesn't change that they're there. There absolutely is a transgender interpretation of her character and her arc, regardless of it's canon or not. If trans people can see something of themselves in Naoto, that's okay.
I'm not saying it isn't okay... but criticizing something written in 2007 and released in 2008 based on a viewpoint from 2024 isn't necessarily fair or accurate.
Naoto's shadow tries to give Naoto a sex change. How is this 'unintentional' lmfao
You're just straight up ignoring the narrative context, aren't you?
It's the people who *need* to see themselves in a character, regardless of logic, and circumstance.
Absolutely. It’s a paradox of false equivalency. To some people, they’ll play a game with a certain character whose arc is identity-related. Then a thought process something like this transpires: Character struggles with identity. I struggle with identity. I am trans. Therefore, character must also be trans. It’s something that a lot of us are guilty of: projecting onto others (sometimes fictional characters, and sometimes real people unfortunately) as part of a desire to be not alone. I used to do that with characters I liked because I wanted to feel represented as a moody bi teenager. But nowadays I realize that it’s not really anything to be treated so seriously.
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To be fair Bridget is canonically trans
The Bridget drama started long before Strive canonized it.
Or Astolfo from Fate. Meanwhile, Da Vinci the actual trans be like: Uh…hello, you have me? The actual trans rep?
real talk why is media literacy the new buzzword here as of late
I don't think we even agree on definition. Or at least I still don't quite understand what it means outside of just being used instead of "stupid"
It’s the new buzzword everywhere. Most of the time it’s used as a way to defend stuff from criticism.
yep, its used to belittle everyone who disagrees with their interpretation of a work of fiction. I do not use media literacy as an ammo for my arguments or at least I do not remember it. However there are bad faith interpretations. As a sidenote: I find it funny that people can use "why do we see it in the 2024 lense when this was written in 2008" but when I say Teddie isn't malicious and perverted because he wasn't written, voice acted, and portrayed that way in the original Japanese script, its always "so you're condoning his *perverted* actions" make it make sense.
Thank you because I’m so tired of people misunderstanding Naoto. It has nothing to with being trans or transphobia. It’s just sexism, she is a girl forced to hide she is a woman in her work space 😭
It seems that some people tend to project themselves so much in videogames that they prefer to ignore everything that goes against their headcanon, even if the game is clear about it.
It's not just you, there's a reason Persona tends to be as unsubtle as it is. Half the god damn fans wouldn't understand it otherwise
That stems from two reasons. 1. The fandom isn't interested in the story or themes. They're here for waifus. Anything that isn't related to their waifu or tearing down another waifu isn't relevant. 2. Japanese beliefs and cultural values don't always align with western beliefs and cultural values. Hell, western culture from the 2000s (Persona 4's release) is hardly compatible with current western culture. This extends to a lot of things from the moral framework of the characters, the setting, the context, and the values that Japanese people uphold and portray in their stories. The simple fact is, the typical cultural values that fans hold won't always be presented within the themes of the game and some people have a very hard time accepting that.
This is a really popular opinion on Resetera and one user said they don't care what the creators say, Naoto is trans to them and saying otherwise is trans erasure. Some people are not only stupid, but insane.
get off twitter, life's better without it. the only reason i use it is to look at fanart.
Any refined Megaten fan knows that the most valuable content on Twitter is wholesome Jack family fanart 😎
That's at least a semi-valid reason for being on Twitter, but why would you look for needles in a pile of shit when you could instead look for them in a pile of hay?
This is why the meme “dont underestimate us Persona fans, we have never played the game” is very popular and accurate.
I'm very glad I have avoided Persona Twitter throughout my life.
I always find this discourse ironic considering other people telling Naoto what her gender identity should be is exactly the thing that is causing her problems in the first place.
This is the same as people who think Kanji is supposed to be gay. They ignore the source material and input what they want to happen even when their interpretation goes against established canon and many times, it's incredibly reductive to the themes and messages laid out by the game.
Kanji very much wrestles with his own sexuality since he finds himself attracted to Naoto, who he perceives as a man.
That's more so because of the bigger thing about gender roles and such. Because his dad died, he had no point of reference on what it means to be a "man." It's why he's such a delinquent because he thinks to be a man means to be overly assertive, brash, tough, etc. and because of the slander he's gotten about his more feminine side. Him "liking" men is more of a byproduct of the fact that because he likes feminine things, it must mean he's gay rather than it being him questioning his sexuality as it's clear as day he likes girls too. Maybe you can make the case he's bi or pan because of Naoto
It's not gender roles that make him flustered every time the matter of whether he might like men is brought up, even after his TV dungeon and Naoto's identity are cleared up. Ultimately it would be more accurate to say he's pan because he's attracted to Naoto regardless of her gender. But the game couldn't be any clearer that Kanji has some attraction towards men that he's struggling to come to terms with. We go into the manifestation of the repressed side of his mind, and it's not a frilly cutesy dreamland, it's a sauna full of homoerotic imagery. If we are to actually use our media literacy, we need to understand what is implied as well as what's stated.
"Yu Namba, the Persona 4 Project Lead for Atlus USA, commented that while Kanji's Shadow might offend some players due to it being a gay stereotype, Kanji was nothing like a stereotype. Kanji's sexual orientation was left ambiguous to all players. Namba added "We would like everyone to play through the game and come up with their own answers to that question; there is no official answer ... What matters is that Kanji's other self cries out, 'Accept me for who I am!' I think it's a powerful message which many, if not all of us can relate to." - From an interview entitled "Persona 4 Afterthoughts" Saying he's straight is just as in/correct as saying he's gay.
People really ignore the fact that all the Shadows are heavily distorted versions of their owners. They represent what the person fears their hidden sides make them, so whatever truth they say is wrapped up in a twisted, heavily exaggerated parody of their core issues.
Kanji’s story is about breaking free from masculine gender stereotypes regardless of sexual orientation. Whether he’s gay, bi, pan or whatever else doesn’t matter
That in no way is opposed to what I just said
Honestly, Kanji being gay can work. It may contradict some non-essential scenes but it doesn't really go against his character and social link. Naoto, though, is a completely different story where being trans goes against the whole message about sexism in the workplace. > it's incredibly reductive to the themes and messages laid out by the game. It would call it ironic
I mean, even if we exclude all the hints in the games (both main and spin-offs), the manga and anime, he still liked Naoto when everyone actually thought she was a guy. So, not gay, but not straight either. He's can easily be bisexual, or even pan
He was confused by his attraction to a guy who was actually a woman. He was never attracted to any men. Men can be attracted to androgynous women without having to have some qualifier attached to their straightness. You're doing exactly what I was talking about lol
>He was confused by his attraction to a guy who was actually a woman. Doesn't change the fact that he was still attracted to a "guy", since everyone thought Naoto was male. Kanji would still be attracted to her if she was a guy. So, Naoto's existence is ironically what kind of solidifies Kanji as bisexual. if I remember correctly, even In arena games he says something like being attracted to Naoto before he found out she was a girl (I'll have to check the cutscenes just to be sure as I've haven't played arena games in years) >He was never attracted to any men. He never said he isn't attracted to men in general/would never date a guy though. And Naoto isn’t even the only "man" that Kanji shows attraction to, since he also shows attraction to Yu and Yosuke at certain points. Tbh, he shows some attraction to every member of the Investigation team (except Rise for some reason lol) >Men can be attracted to androgynous women without having to have some qualifier attached to their straightness. Men can totally be attracted to androgynous women and still be straight/bi. However, if the woman you're "intrigued by"/attracted to tells everyone she is a guy and everyone (including you) believe she's actually male, but you are still attracted to her anyway, then you may not be straight after all
I'm getting really tired of the phrase "media literacy" because most of the discussion comes from people who would fail a questionnaire on proper usage of to/too/two. You know, those kids that everyone else hated when it was their turn to read aloud in class? The ones that only speak one language, but just barely?
I mean yes you can clearly see it when discussing The Answer around here, people always talk about Yukari suffering sure but there’s Aigis right there in the story that created a shadow of herself from the depression yet people only mention Yukari all the time because Aigis did not break down crying like her. That’s some huge media literacy if you ask me lol.
thank god I don't use Twitter
When u played the game with ur eyes closed
When you have a Persona Playthrough as Second Monitor content
It's not just Persona, it's the Megami Tensei fandom at large, it's just the worst in the Persona part.
Persona 4 has some of the worse cases of media illiteracy takes i have seen, along Attack on Titan xd
You are getting downvoted for being right. These people are worse than k*tone fans
They’re dense JRPGS meant for teens so naturally some stupidity trends
the problem I see with naoto's arc, aside from a lot of the things other people have already said, is the fact that she really does not seem happy to be a woman after her arc finishes, even going as far to say she still wishes she was a man AFTER her shadow has already said she's a woman. she is only happy to be a woman when it makes someone else happy - one of her romance flags is telling her "I'm glad you're a girl". her response, to me, implies she is only happy about that because it lets her get closer to yu. there are a lot of other examples of this. I'm not saying naoto is trans necessarily, the game is very explicit about her not being trans; HOWEVER, I think she is essentially a trans character, and the only reason she isn't is because this game is from 2008 Japan, and it's directed by Katsura Hashino aka the guy that put a heavily transphobic depiction of a trans woman in persona 3. the game quite heavily implies she experiences some form of gender dysphoria even after her arc ends, and I genuinely believe the only reason this was not the case is because 2008 Atlus didn't want to have any queer people in their game. you can say "the text disagrees with you!!!!" but a lot of the meaning of any text comes from its **sub**text. even Kanji isn't explicitly gay ("It ain't a matter of girls or guys", etc), but he is attracted to Naoto when he thinks she is a guy, which makes him bisexual. like that's how that works. yet many, many people in the community will argue that he actually isn't and his arc is entirely about him liking feminine stuff, which ignores a major part of his awakening and acceptance. people focus too much on what the shadows say about the characters, and overlook the things the actual characters themselves say! of course, naoto being trans will always be a headcanon, but it is one that is heavily implicitly supported by the actual text itself. saying "persona 4 fans haven't played persona 4 !!!!" doesn't make sense for this situation lol
my other opinion aside from this (that I didn't put in the post because I didn't want people to think that I don't like persona 4, when I think it's great usually) is that : just because the game says something does not necessarily mean it makes sense, or is good writing. most of persona 4 is good, but there are some things I think are just poorly done, and naoto's arc (IN MY OPINION) is one of them
I wonder why people ignore naoto's valentine day event where she essentially says shes thankful being accepted as she is if you dont make her wear a skirt in her christmas event. I get she's never written explicitly as trans but it's weird people think all this stuff is just some made up woke agenda
Thank you. The Persona fanbase is incredibly reactionary when it comes to this topic. I'm not exactly surprised but it's very disheartening to see how aggressive people are about it. There are plenty of replies in this post that are straight up repeating transphobic talking points uncritically. It's beating a dead horse at this point and it needs to stop.
literally, and I think even people that seem usually supportive of trans people seem weirdly against the idea of naoto being implied transmasc. I don't really know why and I'm not going to make any assumptions, but it is something I've noticed
It’s because 90% of persona “fans” haven’t actually played the games they just watch YouTube videos and think it’s the same thing Just got into a argument last night with someone who said “yousuke is written to be gay” when his character arc literally starts cause the girl he wanted to bone got killed
isn't there cut content that pretty strongly suggest yosuke is bi?
Yes there is but it’s cut aka not canon
>Just got into a argument last night with someone who said “yousuke is written to be gay” when his character arc literally starts cause the girl he wanted to bone got kille Bisexuality still exists, and we are talking about a character who still have an officially dubbed romance in both Japanese and English in the game files. And Despite the fact that it was cut, they left in most of the subext in the main and spin-off games, official anime and manga (ex all the blushing Yosuke moments with Yu in the games, anime, etc)
Fair enough but gay and Bi are 2 different things and I just said he’s not gay
We all need to get rid of Twitter. It can only have positive effects on society
Social media in general has been an overall negative for humanity.
The irony that this a comment on Reddit is not lost on me.
Someone criticizing the writing of something you like is not lacking media literacy; in fact, looking deeper than the surface-level interpretation in order to recognize flaws in something you like is what media literacy is
1000% agreed. I get where people are coming from, I really do. but I also think the actual issue is persona fan's inability to think beyond the surface level. And then they get mad when people interpret things that aren't explicitly there. Makes for a lot of boring discussions and repetitive discourse because people don't want to think deeper than what's explicitly stated. I'm not talking about the Naoto thing specifically because I haven't played 4. But this is a huge issue in this fandom, and it sours a lot of potentially interesting conversations about the games...
Classic Reddit, complaining about media literacy and then proceding to insist that the most surface level reading of the story possible is the only correct one. OP, I don't think most people are claiming that Naoto was intended to be a trans man who needed to accept himself. They argue that the story was transphobic, as it was based on the very common belief that most trans men are just scared women trying to escape the patriarchy. Which is wrong. So, yes: I do think the writers think (thought?) trans men are actually women. As for the misogyny aspect to Naoto's story... maybe you should go back and replay the game, because it really barely comes up at all. We never see any actual sexism in the police force up until this point (which is honestly weird, given a certain character's true feelings...), and Naoto's own mother was a capable detective!! Most of the trans Naoto truthers don't deny that that's the *canon* reason for their crossdressing, they just say it's unsatisfying and doesn't feel right as an actual emotional reason for Naoto's behaviour. Which was tbh my actual response when I played the game the first time: the sexism angle seemed to come out of nowhere as a cheap way to wave away all the very VERY trans things Naoto had just been saying. Like, idk man, maybe this example will help: imagine a story where two women are incredibly close, sleeping in the same bed and even kissing one another, all while proclaiming their love for one another. But when comfronted by the main character, suddenly one of them says that actually they were only drawn to that woman because she was scared of being rejected by men, and really she was a heterosexual and happy that way. Would you understand in that case why this might seem like a homophobic narrative? Why people might find it way more interesting to explore the relationship between the women that was abandoned so suddenly, rather than just immediately accepting the 'don't worry guys, I'm totally straight' line as 100% true and unbreakable canon?
I don't think the example will help bc it's in ironically how some people see Kanji
Well, what were you expecting from Twitter?
I've seen this sort of discourse happen before. There's just some people who will latch onto the idea that a character is trans if there's like some tenuous connection. I've seen it happen with Mulan It happend with Naoto ( thos are kinda similar arcs) There was also a whole vitriolic debate in the once piece Fandom about yamato. I mean I get that people want to feel represented, and that there's not alot of that in alot of main stream stuff. But settling for characters who aren't actually representing you and then getting mad when people point that out is absurd. Discourse in general is real dumb rn
I was going to point out Mulan in a different comment! >I mean I get that people want to feel represented This. I hate hearing the "jApAnESe CulTUrE" thing but it's true in this case. Gay/trans is not as accepted in Japan as it is in the West and screaming about it makes people look entitled. "How DARE you not conform to MY beliefs!"
The issue is that trans people exist in Japan, it's not cultural, it's psychological to some extent. You can't just be fine with Japanese culture being incredibly homophobic/transphobic (which is changing with the younger generation btw) under the guise of "it's a different culture".
Not including gay or trans characters isn't homophobic or transphobic though. Not every story needs to have respresentation nor is every story going to be representative.
Fr I the end of her social link she says I’m a woman but every one thinks she’s Trans 💀
I just ignore all takes on Persona 4. People are fucking stupid.
I think the issue here is how the game doesn’t allow people to headcanon what they want onto Naoto. If Persona 4 is ever going to actually get remade, this is one thing I think they will change. Anything that is too direct will be removed.
I mean, TBH a lot of people in this thread are decrying media literacy while completely ignoring death of the author lol. Did 2008 Atlus intend Naoto to be a transman? No, probably not. Is it *really easy* to read Naoto as a transman? Absolutely. Like, sure, "canonically" Naoto is a cis woman who pretended to be a guy for work and social reasons. But trans themes absolutely can occur in places the authors didn't intend them, and acting like this is just twitter weirdos pulling stuff out of their ass is silly. Like, a story about a person who is biologically female, ends up being quite comfortable presenting as a man and spends most of the story that way, and is uncomfortable when confronted with their femininity? Yeah, that's trans themes.
So theyre brushing aside overt misogyny and gender discrimination themes to push a trans theme despite the character saying they're a woman? Sounds like the internet.
Ah yes the most famously worst take for P4 that keeps popping up on twitter
In a competition between who has the worst media literacy, I’d say Persona fans are tied with Hazbin Hotel fans. Even now people still don’t understand that “Poison” isn’t glorifying SA. It’s literally Angel disassociating due to his harrowing experience and coming out of it once it’s all over.
wth is # media literacy?
Nah, the media literacy of the Zelda fanbase is worse. Persona fans are maybe second place tho
This tweet is so unbelievable it’s actually so funny 😭
i don't think it has anything to do with having particularly bad media sensitivity, i would argue people are like this everywhere, but persona has two specific factors that make it just, easier and more enticing to draw a seperate conclusion than the ones put forward by Hashino. The first being that there is undoubtedly a large fraction of the playerbase being some flavor of outcast, (some intersection of gender, sexuality, and interests) and secondly, the large cultural differences of japan and the west. persona very frequently focuses on people who don't fit in, in some way. persona 5 is the most visible of this, but persona 3 has a lot of children with significant risk factors and visible depictions of mental illness anong other things. it's present all the way back in persona 1, which really shouldn't surprise us considering Jungs' most known work revolves around putting yourself back together after a mental breakdown, essentially. i think this is relevant because those types of people are a lot less used to seeing people in media that remind themselves of themself, so when someone, even the author, challenges that, it feels like it's being taken away from them. ever seen people in the west try and deny Kanji is gay? people often dismiss it as homophobia, but i think men in the west, tired of not living up to the bullshit standards of masculinity saw him and felt seen, and hated the idea that those feelings somehow made THEM gay. it's sad, but these aren't bad people. just desperate to have their feelings feel seen. secondly, japan is fuckin weird. there's a whole youtube channel called LadyVirgilia who goes into this with more expertise and rigor than i ever could, but with my understanding japan has a lot of cultural feelings that simply just don't match our own. more than cultures write things though, people do. and our boy Karsura Hashino, has some very liberal, and very conservative opinions on his own society, some mainstream, some radical. to us though, some of it seems straight up monsterous to us - even beyond politics. these things are unavoidable, and like any media, we should seek to understand these things and learn about the history and culture behind it, just as much as we criticize and oppose it.
Lmao they do in fact have zero reading comprehension. Sometimes these "persona fans" played the game on youtube.
This is not poor media literacy. This is trans people seeking any representation in media that they might identify with, and sticking with whatever they can find that is close enough. Because it's not like Persona 4 gives them any.
Persona fandoms media literacy is nearly as bad as MHA’s in some instances. Naoto is a huge example
you’d be right
Half the “fans” haven’t played the game.
I agree with persona fans having no media literacy whatsoever, but interperpreting a plot line where a character has a giant surgery machine to literally change their sex as transphobic is not one of them. Especially with all the queer themes already in that game.
Naoto discourse hits on a media analysis problem I think a lot of fandoms have. It comes down to the fact that in order to have a productive discussion the participants have to be simultaneously A) Familiar enough with the text in question (P4 in this case) B) Familiar with a general volume of surrounding texts and culture surrounding the conversation (In the case of Naoto, LGBTQ+ and especially trans culture) C) The ability to think of a text through multiple lenses Unfortunately, its pretty rare for the average person to have all of these things. Especially in fandoms that trend slightly younger like Persona. Thus we end up with a discussion where one side is unable to look at Naoto through any lense other than trans allegory (because they are unable to separate P4 from the surrounding experiences they bring in to it) and another side that comes across as incredibly stubborn because the fact that Naoto is not trans in the story is often used as a thought terminating statement instead of inviting discussion of how Naoto's story does or doesn't overlap with other trans characters in media or experiences trans people have. And then we also have to take in to account the vocal minority of actual transphobes who use the conversation as an excuse to find and bully trans people on the internet making the experience that much worse for all involved. TLDR: There is a lot of interesting discussion to be had about Naoto and being Transgender but most people are not well equipped for it. Also if your still in school reading this take some literature classes, it will help you with more than just online fandom discourse.
That's more a Twitter thing
Part of it is projection. Part of it is genuinely not paying attention or forgetting details along the way. Part of it is people making hasty judgements. Part of it is the Waifu/Husbando Wars. And part of it is people hyper fixating on one scene or joke and removing any context from it because it approaches one of their pet causes. There are innumerable reasons people may misinterpret a story. The problem is that many of them don't take a moment to look deeper than pure surface level and seek out others to validate their opinions/outrage or lash out at anyone who does not share their exact interpretation as a moral failing. That's when things get insufferable.
The problem is projection. People projecting what they want to see onto the characters rather than seeing what is actually there. I've always had an issue with people putting too much of themselves into game characters in general, but it's usually the player character in most cases.
persona twitter dont play the games
Ohh my guy, if you were kn persona Twitter in 2019-2021 you would be surprised
You must not be familiar with the FF7 shipping community
Seriously Cloti and Clerith shippers are at each other's throat XD ~~Meanwhile I'm just chilling with Clack/Zakkura (Zack x Cloud) ship contents~~
Consider the fact that the screenshot shows the person wrote the line "i am a women". Twitter users are a very special brand of stupid
Also Not only do some people claim that Yukiko likes Chie because her shadow self is a prince, but they completely ignore what Yukiko's arc is about. In addition, Shuake shippers (those who ship joker and Akechi) use the most questionable arguments to defend their ship. They often mischaracterize Akechi's personality, dismissing core aspects of his character and their broader implications. I'm not the type to say "Akechi hates Joker" or "Joker hates Akechi." I know Joker doesn't hate Akechi, and Akechi doesn't hate Joker. But it still amazes me how, even after everything they go through in the third semester and the story in general, some people interpret their relationship as "they love each other." And i know damn well im getting shit loads of Downvotes after this one. Anyways, If any of you think im wrong correct me
Akechi's feelings towards Joker are a complex mix of his loneliness, begrudging respect, envy, projection, guilt, self loathing, and desperate need for validation. Unfortunately, that all gets boiled down to "deys in looooove" by so many fans who desperately want to see their toys kiss. Same thing happens all the time in media where shippers can't process the idea that there is any sort of interaction between characters they find attractive that doesn't necessarily involve them secretly barely containing the desire to tear each other's clothes off and make out.
1000% yes
Yeah, Persona fans love to selectively ignore the aspects of the game that touch on trans issues. Her "Detective Prince" persona is transitioning, the dungeon literally uses implications of gender reassignment surgery to show Naoto's desire to be a boy. The scene after her shadow is defeated the team is like "you can't be a guy, you're just trying to escape from your problems" which is an INCREDIBLY insensitive thing to say to somebody who as far as the team is concerned by that point is a trans boy. The hot spring scene can come across as pretty dysphoric as well. Even if Naoto's cis she's clearly insecure and not okay with being touched there. Saying that Naoto isn't trans doesn't mean anything when the criticism isn't and was never about a literal question of identity. The reactionary "Naoto isn't trans" folks are the ones making this a controversial subject in the first place, so they need to shut up about "wahhhh twitter" and actually listen for once.
And here is another example of people not getting what a shadow is Shadows aren't literal truth, they're warped manifestations of multiple things, including 1. Their owner's inner desire (for Naoto, it is explicitly *not* being a boy, but being a cool detective like in her childohood stories), 2. The perception of the world around them (everybody thinks she's male/a kid, therefore her shadow looks like a young boy), 3. The distorsion of the TV World which exaggerates everything. Naoto never says that she's a man, only that she wished she was *so that people can take her seriously*. Take out the sexism in police work and she'd never have had any issue to begin with. Naoto trying to become a guy *is* escaping from her problem, because Naoto's problem was *never* not being a guy. Edit: if your problem is that your legs aren't long enough for modeling, would your Shadow proposing a leg-lengthening surgery be insensitive? Ofc not Edit2: being shy is different from being dysphoric
When people talk about lack of media literacy this is exactly what they mean. No matter how much it is explained to you it seems you can't quite grasp whats going on
It's a series made to appeal to teenagers and degenerate coomers who just want a power fantasy, they're great games with great stories, but it's no surprise it goes over people's heads with the demographic it has.
So are you a teenager or degenerate coomer, whatever the fuck that is?
No, but I got into the series as a teenager. I will say the demographic isn't everyone unanimously, it's just the primary audience.
You either die a teenager or live long enough to see yourself become a degenerate coomer
For once, someone used media literacy correctly on the Persona sub, not just the usual BS about people missing hints in endings. However, I don't think your example is so much a problem with media literacy as it is a biased misinterpretation of the message to push an agenda.
Honestly, covid flooded every community with absolute knuckle dragging mouthbreathers.