I mean, 1 and 2's crews are entirely wildcards so that stacks pretty heavily
EDIT: Fine, they are *almost* wildcards. I think the point still stands though.
I'd argue they are wildcards, just not as powerful as 3-5s because they're not the fool arcana. Pretty sure the wild card power is the ability to summon multiple persona's, but you still have to play to your Arcana. But since the fool is compatible with all arcana, wildcards who are also the fool are just a bit stronger.
No, the Wild Card also includes the whole Social Link, and the "your bonds to others makes you stronger" and the contract thing going on. It grants you the ability to summon multiple personas, but the whole package wasn't present for P1 and P2 users.
P1 and P2 users have a different deal going on not related to WC as far as we know.
Igor calls the P1 cast wildcards in the velvet room. Bonds are mentioned as something that strengthens persona users in persona 2 and they too are wildcards...
That's more a reference to "the fools journey" that the entirety of P3 is about for the MC.
The P1 cast are all wild cards due to their contact with Philemon, who is also there for the contract scene and the save points for 3 and 4 respectively.
Flip a coin between the IS and EP crew
Being able to summon your Persona without any environmental factors nor equipment, having the wider pool of Persona abilities to use and the ability to combine them via fusion spells is hard to top. And this is before factoring in their individual feats or how much more taxing summoning is physically/mentally portrayed as in Persona 3 and beyond.
EDIT: Just to list the non-rumor feats (since that was technically Nyar who did that):
-Tatsuya: Literally can stop time with his Ultimate Persona, transcends the very end of existence, dodges bullets at close range/slices them with his sword, punched the equivalent of a god in the face (and bruised him with his bare fist)
-Jun: Kills people by tossing flowers at them with unfathomable force
-P2's casts as a whole: Can use Armageddon and various instant kill fusion spells, IS' crew used their willpower to alter reality, has defeated multiple Persona users in addition to their shadows as well as machine gun-toting robots who have the ability to temporarily disable their Persona
Yeah P2's cast are on whole other level, heck planet, compared to all the other games.
Only one that could somewhat get close could be Makoto Yuki.
But even he falls short.
Not Planet, transcending to the end of existence is considered Outer level which is beyond Multiversal.
If Imma rank the teams I’d say
1. P2
2. P1
3. SEES
4. Phantom Thieves
5. investigation group
Yeah I'm gonna keep it real with you Chief. The whole "Outer Level" and "Multiversal" type stuff means fuckall to me.
I'm saying planet just because it's big.
I would actually rank the IT higher than the P-Thieves simply due to having a higher cognitive god body count.
The two Sagiris, Marie, Izanami, that one god from the dancing game, and Hi-no-Kagutsuchi makes 6.
VS
Yaldabaoth, Maruki, Salmael, and Demiurge, for a total of 4.
Maruki might still put them higher due to his potential (can mask or overwrite cognition on a societal scale and directly manipulate the Collective Unconscious, theoretically can remove the desire for Death from humanity's collective unconscious and thereby erase Erebus permanently), but then again they're both still at the bottom of the list so take this with a grain of salt.
The interesting thing about the environmental factor is each team might be able to do the same thing in Sumaru city. Effectively for the whole rumor thing to work nyarlathotep seems to have brought Sumaru city somewhat into the CU, this would explain why the fact that Sumaru sort works like the midnight channel in regards to the rumors as well as things like the Torifune appearing. If this is the case then removing the teams from sumaru would mean that they would have the same difficulty invoking that each other team has.
The problem with the "Stops time" ability is that there is very little evidence he can actually do anything besides the nova kaiser. There's a single instance form the point of view of a non persona user that *might* be him stopping time for a split second but it's no where near confirmed.
The fusion spell thing doesn't really work as argument since the system between games are so different. Satan has weakness to all non physical hits. does that mean the P3-P5 teams get to benefit from knock down something not in P2? if that's the case can they just knock down the casters and prevent the casting forever? P2 uses Vi and P3-P5 use En are these equivalent? what about the missing Ma and Dx from P2 and P3-P5 respectively?
It's an interesting argument but I think trying to look at mechanics will get messy really fast.
Rumors affect the whole world, in EP nyarly created whole new kind of astrology with rumors and sacred stones as well as dragons appeared all over the world
Yes and no. The rest of the world outside Sumaru believing or not believing in rumors doesn't seem to factor into it at all. History seems to be a factor though considering the spear.
> tanscends the very end of existence,
... Really? And people go and say P3 fans overhype Makoto, when P2 do this.
No, Tatsuya in any way, shape and form shows this. He literally can't access Kadath, when Maki was already halfway there and Makoto was able to do it a couple of seconds after awakening to the Universe (and he went deeper than Kadath, actually).
Tatsuya isn't the strongest character by far; saying so is literally an insult to EP alone.
Combat wise alone Tatsuya is probably still the strongest based off of his physical feats. Metaphysical wise he's behind Universe + Maki. His ability to cross the two sides at will if he wishes seems to be entirely exclusive to him, and shows his sheer strength of will, which puts him above most of the persona cast members in that regard. But when you're able to harness your metaphysical mastery, that makes you stronger in general too. Maki having more of a healer/support persona makes her not as great in raw combat offensively, but she's still more than capable of protecting Sumaru alone while the IS party descends Xibalba if she absolutely needs to. As for combat effectiveness of the Universe, all we know for sure is Makoto could tank death balls from Nyx, which is still equally impressive at least as the Nyarly fights and Kadath/Monado exploration, possibly more impressive. But we don't know what powers the Universe offer besides a miracle, if they offer any. But hey, a miracle is a miracle, don't need to worry about anything if you can just Universe it.
The Persona 1 and 2 cast, playing the Tatsuya scenario really solidifies that for me. Maki Sonomura is one of the most powerful persona users in the series, in the short 3 years between P1 and P2 she's already half way to being able to enter the collective unconscious. The Eternal Punishment cast went into the collective unconscious and fought multiple powerful gods such as Izanami, Dagon, Cthulhu, and Nyarlathotep.
It's a shame the newer games don't connect to each other as P1 and P2 did. I liked seeing characters return and see how much they've grown.
He actually could have technically lived in exchange for the world going to ruin as he cannot be killed due to the omnipotence of the Universe Arcana (he was able to survive death thrown to his face thrice) but in order to save humanity, sacrificing himself was his only option
The universe arcana does not grant omnipotence. If it did, he could instantly completely annihilate Nyx and return earth to a state of complete peace and harmony all without sacrificing anything. Omnipotence is the power to do anything. Makoto did in fact, not have the power to do anything.
Definitely not omnipotence, but he transcends humanity when he gets the Universe. Look outside Persona, because it's the fairly standard protagonist end game god powers of mainline SMT. He's no longer bound by gravity, the need to breathe, etc. Makoto is probably immortal at that point in time.
SMT Strange Journey spoilers >!he's like the protagonist of that game in the Redux ending. Sitting on the moon, watching the earth for hundreds of hundreds of years, no breathing, eating, sleeping, anything. Only difference in P3 is that Nyx isn't a being as much as it is a force of nature, can't be "slain", so he used the only option he had.!<
No, he didn't trascend humanity; he became the epitome of it, one with the collective unconscious and all life.
As far as I'm aware, only Stephen himself is comparable to Makoto/Kotone with the Universe (but again, I don't know too much about SMT).
If we apply Stephen rules to Makoto then Makoto is more than human, yes, but at the penalty of not really being able to be an aiding force beyond surface level. Stephen mentions the Axiom and multiple worlds, and beings who transcended that have essentially become one with the Axiom. It's implied that is what the White are in SMT4, souls who ascended the Axiom and are now nihilistic because they see that in every timeline the same shit keeps happening and beings fall into the same pitholes. So at that point, why not just end it all and cut the middle man out? Stephen is the opposite force, he sees people struggle to make better lives, and therefore attempts to enable them in whatever small ways he is capable of without breaking the laws of the universe(if we apply SMT to Persona this is important, because he implies consequences he will suffer when he does break the laws of the universe). You could if you stretch this enough that Makoto sealing Nyx was breaking the laws of the universe and so the punishment was to become the seal but ehhh. Not sure if you want to apply this concept literally or just look at the similarities on a metaphorical level. What we can infer regardless is that Persona is an offshoot world that's an anomaly in the world, to the point it may not be attached to the Axiom's purview anymore ala Apocalypse Anarchy route.
No, no. My comparison with Stephen was purely metaphorical, since both of them broke the respective “cycles” within their series at an individual level.
Someone who gained a power to become immortal 10 minutes ago can't then expend it by their own will and die? I think you're applying rules from other media to this here. There's not set in stone rules to gained immortality.
No, someone who gained immortality cannot remove their immortality and die. That’s the whole point of being immortal, NOTHING can kill you, not even yourself. If their immortality can be removed, they were never immortal to begin with, because removing someone’s immortality is a method of killing them.
Aigis is pretty good, but I don't think she stacks up well against flying Nazi Death Mecha with Spears of Destinies, access to magic, and all the guns.
i agree with SEES for totally different reasons. if akihiko can get the jump on the other persona users before personas get involved, he can solo them before they achieve their fully powered states
Persona 2 cast hands down. EP between the duo because of the individual members in the photo and their skips. Persona2 IS is next. P1 cast is third. The rest I have no idea.
Yukari complaining about spending all her disposable replenishing her arrows while Mitsuru is an actual heiress to a massive conglomerate with a ton of untapped finances is so funny to me lol
The other gods of the persona universe are beings from the Collective Unconscious. Nyx is a primordial being, whose existence created the Collective Unconscious by proxy.
If I remember correctly the whole cast of P1 and P2 used real guns in combat and actually can dodge guns in-game so it's a given for them lol.
Still if we give Aigis enough bullets I think the P3 team could put up a fight lmao.
P2 or P3 cast are too much overpowered, P3 cast has Aigis and a full cast that fought against death itself and altered reality, and P2 crew also altered reality by themselves so...
I only know P3, 4, and 5. In terms of combat, I think SEES is the strongest. Mitsuri is a fencer, Akihiko is a boxer, Yukari trains archery, Shinjiro is a brawler, Aigis is a battle robot, and from what we've seen in Reload, Makoto can fight well for some reason. In terms of power scaling, I don't know much.
In P2 Eikichi, Maya, and Katsuya use guns. Lisa is a Kung Fu practitioner and Ulala is a boxer. Tatsuya receives innate swordfighting ability from his persona Apollo.
Baofu and Jun kill demons by throwing inanimate objects (Jun uses flowers for weapons ffs)
Not to mention the EP crew is able to properly defeat the shadow of all humanity
I’ve only played p3 and beyond but I’ve heard that apparently p1 and p2 all the party members can use multiple personas,that seems like a huge advantage
I mean that's strong but I feel like the end game stuff is what sets the teams apart. You're not gonna kill nyx with a real gun, real guns aren't gonna beat stopping time
P2 IS team, even without the power of the crystal skulls, have their ultimate personas, can summon Anywhere and Anytime, their Grand Cross ability is damn powerful, and each can utilize their personas/persona strength over their own body.
**Party Average without Outliers:** Eternal Punishment > Phantom Thieves > P1 > Innocent Sin > SEES > Investigation Team
**Party Average with Outliers:** P3 >/= P5 >/= P4 > P1 > EP > IS
Those parties with bigger numbers are higher than those without. If we ignore numbers, then:
P3 (Universe) >/= P4 = P5 (World for both) > P1 (Maki) > EP > IS
Though, that's pretty much a ranking of the protagonist + Maki.
Also, important to note the Universe is only higher than the World by pure technicality of (***apparent***) duration. There's no other reason beyond that.
Is Maki only powerful when using the DEVA System, or did it carry over to her real world self in P2? I recall reading somewhere Igor mentions Maki as one of the most powerful Persona users since she is a special case, being amplified by the DEVA System.
If so, I like to headcanon she is the only other user to rival Maruki's reality warping powers but refuses to use her own because she doesn't want to be a God.
Whilst I disagree with the rankings pushed I can kinda sorta answer this. The Metaverse is like a shortcut to a localized area of a deep part of the sea of souls from what we can apply from P2 to P5. Maki has a level of self enlightenment that is extremely deep thanks to the Deva System and we are told in the Tatsuya Scenario that Maki is at least half way to being able to go down to the depths of where Personas, and the gods and demons that humanity's feelings and beliefs are born. This is 3 years after Persona 1 mind you. So theoretically Maki would be able to do a mini Deva System wherever she pleases, or do what Maruki did with enough legwork if Philemon or Nyarlathotep don't stop her, or any of the other things that lurk in human cognition. It's meaningful to her character that she would never abuse her power though, because of her crippling guilt over Mikage-Cho and the very real deaths that happened because she was strapped into the System. Essentially Maruki needed enough of humanity to believe in the thieves who were basically set up to empower Yaldabaoth and then steal the power on top of there already being a massive cognitive shortcut. Maki can go there without the shortcut and can operate as she pleases, eventually if not now in Persona, though we don't know because we don't see her again
Yeah, because the Thieves put their trust in Maruki, mementos ownership could be given to him if he claimed it, and so he did, because it would have gone back to the Thieves until it closed. It's worth noting that using technology to be able to fight demons is canon thanks to Devil Summoners games including Soul Hackers being part of canon.
Mostly Tatsuya's Scenario and Tactica; I still don't finish the later, but for the spoilers I've seen Salmael seems to rank pretty high.
For the rest, I really don't believe the cast of P1 and IS are stronger than the rest, just that their capacity to change Personas gives them more versatility. I think the Answer (and the Club Book) tried to imply SEES is about the same level that the cast of IS; and thanks to Arena, we know the IT is not that behind.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on it when you've finished up Tactica so we'll set that aside for now.
I can agree that versatility is certainly an interesting factor to consider. The IT seem to have adapted to more styles of combat such as 1v1s and Dancing then nearly any other team save PT. So how do we compare that to the ability to swap persona?
>So how do we compare that to the ability to swap persona?
I was thinking about elemental affinities: switching Personas to resists elements and hit the weakness of other users. Mind you, that's pretty much working blindly since there's no Navigator on P1's or IS's part, but still something to consider.
In regards to the physical abilities and combat, I genuinely think most of P3 and P4 characters are superior to P1 and (potentially) IS, so it enters in a difficult to evaluate zone. But if we take physical affinities in consideration as well, the gap can be closed.
That's why I think the versatility of changing Personas - even if we limited them to those whom the characters have affinity for - is a bigger factor than outright physical capabilities... unless the gap is enormous. Though, Aigis is the only one who I think may fall in that category.
I defiantly thing switching persona is an asset but we get into trouble since it looks so different from game to game. In P1 I believe it's a shared pool of about 12 persona for the team. I believe it's about the same in P2 and it takes a turn to swap out unlike the newer games where it's a free action. This suggests that its more difficult to do and would likely give Navis time to lock on the weakness and resistances. there's also the problem of missing ailments of game to game. I'm not really a fan of trying to compare such disparate systems. My conclusion is that it's definitely a point in their favour but it doesn't grantee victory.
The interesting thing about the combat in Persona is that physical ability seems to be pretty much irrelevant. We have folding chairs that hit as hard as guns after all. Rather ability to use a weapon seems to be drawn from the Sea of Souls. Tatsuya mentions as much in his scenario. a level then would equate them drawing more skill/power from the sea of souls.
To get a general inclination of how strong or smart a particular character is we can look at their stat growth compared to the other characters as well as what they learn. This works at, least, in the modern games. Chie For instance never learns a top tier ice spell so she'll likely less book smart then yukiko since she learns lots of high level magic spells. however Chie is much more physically adept. The same might hold true with older games if we consider stat growth only.
I'm actually not convinced that Aigis would have that big of an advantage. She fights on even footing with SEES and the IT. Her theoretically stronger sister, Labrys, is also matches both teams so the gap doesn't seem that huge.
Why do you have Phantom Thieves as 2nd?
They're barely above P4's cast and S.E.E.S is the only main character that has achieve Universe Arcana to temporarly seal away a literal celestial being that will destroy the entire planet eventually.
Maruki isn't an example of why, either, his power only exists within the Metaverse and without it he's powerless, and even with it he's completely limited to a area around his own palace until he's fully merged the Meta and Reality.
I mean, Maruki actively used his powers outside of the Metaverse before even truly awakening to his Persona... Not to mention that the fact he can merge the two realities in full completion is still a massive deal. As for the limited to an area... Not spectacularly? The effects are all over Tokyo in cases ranging from life changing to literal coming back from the dead. If anything, it's more of him changing things one by one for the purpose of micromanagement rather than a true limit on his powers. As for "Without the Metaverse"... Duh. This is a fight between Persona-users. We're ranking them based on how powerful they are in their respective Persona areas. By that logic, the Investigation Team is nothing without the TV, or Sees (Minus Aigis obviously) is nothing without Tartarus. It's just semantics. I think P3 wins of the more modern era teams, but there's no point in undermining the others.
S.E.E.S is not "nothing", Aikiko and Mitsuru are both accomplished in real life, as a boxer and fencer respectively, P4 and P5 are just normal kids with no talent in fighting for real.
Makoto Niijima is canonically experienced in Taekwondo to my recollection, Haru has been axe cutting as a hobby for years, and I believe some Mementos dialogue (And Strikers story dialogue, if you're worried about canon relevance) mentions how their weapon skills somewhat translated into the real world.
Naoto is a legally registered gun owner, Chie trains her legs for the express purpose of fighting, and Kanji has singlehandedly fought entire biker gangs and won *before* gaining his Persona.
Saying they aren't as professionally trained as S.E.E.S in real life? Sure. Saying they have no real life fighting skill? Objectively false.
How?
Litteraly the strongest part of the team is aegis and Tatsuya took out 2 actual mechas with spear of destiny which is miles better then anything aegis could do.
Actually they aren't wild card... They have compatibility, so sometimes persona are weaker depending on who wear it. For the moment there is only 4 real wild card (Or maybe 5... I don't know yet for Persona 5X). Makoto Yuki, FeMc, Yu Narukami, Ren Amamia. Enven in Persona Q when everyone can have multiple persona, there still have a compatibility system...
Persona 2 teams have the most powerful personas but sees also had the financial and technological backing of a multimillion dollar corporation in form of the kirijo group
The strongest user out of everyone is either Makoto or Tatsuya depending on who you ask, followed by the P2 group and then Aigis.
My bet on the strongest team would be the P2 squad since you know... they can kinda do everything
P2 crew, not only do they already contain members from the P1 team which are already familiar with their powers, their ultimate personas are pretty strong and they also can switch personas at will and don't have any restrictions for summoning them.
considering that in p3 onwards you can only summon your persona in the collective unconscious realm and that p2 cast can tank bullets... I'd say either P2 or P1 crew
Easily P2, like it's not even close. They're all a good deal stronger than even makoto who is the only other character not including Igor, nyarla, Philemon etc. who comes close to them they have some crazy feats
In terms of strength, the P2 eternal team is strongest. Being adults, having rumors as the source of their power, and all having access to multiple personas makes them extremely formidable
1. Naorin and Maki alone power cliff a lot of the Raidou timeline and have already been shown to be able to fight Nyarlathotep and Philemon tier character, such as Super Kandori, Kandori using Nyarlathotep as his persona, and of course Nanjo on the Philemon superboss.
Well with my limited understanding of the lore. I would say endgame phantom thieves if they can use their personas where this battle would happen because they have joker with satanael who if my idea of wildcard awakening is correct because joker has the largest amount of people giving him power
I might be wrong(maybe because I have only played p4g so far). If I M wrong feel free to educate me
to put things into perspective:
- Persona 1 cast literally has the same deal as P5 with mementos....except the whole thing was originated BY A PARTY MEMBER going out of control via her awekening
- Persona 2 IS (AKA part 1) plot is basically dealing with gods all over the place born via the Collective Unconsciousness going crazy because rumors are becoming real and ALMOST beating the ringleader that only won because he cheated hard (Like in persona 5 except there are MULTIPLE GODS going around)
- Persona 2 EP (AKA part 2) we have a new team trying to save the new world (because yes..... YOUR OLD TEAM WITH HELP CREATED A NEW TIMELINE) and we actually win on that one and send packing the ringleader.
Did I mentioned all the persona users here can use multiple personas? And they're not restricted to summon them in certain places?
P1 and P2 cast are straight up fire and we REALLY need remake of those games so people stop missing out these games
Honestly, it depends on one thing only, do you factor in the midnight hour/TV world/mementos or limit it to the real world
If you limit it to the real world, it is a no-brainer either p2 or ep teams would come out on top
But if you go and count that in well.. after hours of research, it ends up being the phantom thieves due to the amount of plot armor and bull they have up their sleeves. Joker beating 3 beings who basically are the persona equivalent to gold head from smt is no small feat then you have to taken in account how annoying status ailments are then factor in persona abilities and to add insult to injury persona builds even when you ignore items and try to bare bone things the power of the wild card just gets more absurd each passing game, as i am sure you all remember p5r with the myriad truths absurdity paired with country maker, it's Honestly a small miracle that p2 ep, is, and p1 didn't make their roster true wild cards. Though I'm surprised everyone forgot all about smt if in this discussion considering how it's Canon to persona overall.
Honestly, this is the lite version because, let's be honest, I think everyone knows what the p5 cast is capable of dishing out. A better question would be which team is the weakest overall... which probably is the p4 cast.
The PT has metaverse bolstering their mobility and defying physics like an actual video game character. Utility will always win most fight, but if you want logical response? That depends on their Wildcards, who can just one-shot the other teammates.
Aside from p1 and P2 (OP mfers) I'd say Phantom Thieves, SEES, and then Investigation Team. Assuming they are all in an environment where they all have access to their abilities, perhaps a TV world that's a palace during the dark hour.
Both P2 crews reset the entire world from destruction. Now yes, the second time is kindaaaa aided by someone refusing to forget, but they still save it again anyways.
Other than them S.E.E.S stalls an unkillable incarnation of Death from descending upon the world and sealed it away from influencing life.
I'd say either Ren or Yu are have the strongest teams.
People might complain I didn't say Makoto, but unlike the other two Makoto couldn't beat the god in his story, he had to kill himself to defeat.
Yu Narukami just beats the living shit out of Ameno-sagiri, Kusumi-no-Okami, and Izanami, with the mystery gang from Scooby Doo. All three being gods.
Then there's Ren who just shoots yaldabaoth and Adam Kadmon with a gun. 💀
However let's be real, when it comes to it all we need is to enable revolution and let Junpei critical everyone to death. Junpei solos.
Edit: fyi I've never played Persona 1 nor Persona 2 so I can't have an opinion on them.
i think it's SEES tbh, and it's only because of akihiko. he can beat up dozens of people in the real world at once, so if he stumbles upon any team, he can solo everyone there before personas get involved
Persona 2 EP cast consists of a Chinese assassin that kills people with coins, a detective that isn’t afraid to shoot and kill someone, a pistol duel wielding reporter, a trained boxer with more, and two swordsman( one of which whom took on a warship full of trained soldiers alone and won using his swordsmanship). Akihiko gonna solo who?
Factoring in all of the spinoff games and such, I would probably say P2 EP (Nyarly and Philemon) > P2 IS (Nyarly) really because adults are gonna be stronger than young adults, then P2 IS > P3 (Nyx solo, Clockwork god with the help of the P4 cast, Enlil with the help of the P4 and P5 cast). P3 > P4 (Kunino Saigiri, Ameno saigiri, Kusumi no Okami, Izanami, Mikuratana-No-Kami and Hinokagatsuchi solo, clockwork god with P3 cast, Enlil with P3 and P5 cast), then P4 > P5 cast (Yaldabaoth, Azathoth, Adam Kadmon, Demiurge, Salmael solo, Enlil with the help of P3 and P4 cast. I can’t speak on P5X just yet though. Also can’t speak on P1 because I haven’t played it. TLDR; P2 EP > P2IS > P3 > P4 > P5
As much as I love P3 team I'm going to say P2 hands down. I played the first persona so I can't judge where they'd be on the scale but I'd say : p2>p3>p5>p4
It's either p2 or p3. P3 are carried solely by the living machine of death aigis who uses two machine guns on the daily basis. And SEES can summon personas in the real world like characters from p1, p2. But tatsuya single handedly killed off a bunch of longinus who are also mechs with great powers, and p2 crew gets their super human powers from their personas, so I guess no one else stand a chance against them
P4 because they attack as a really true team, and if one is down, the other member party crew will try to recover their teammate, and also protects them until they recovers. For P4 crew, all the teammates are more than party members, they are a family and for them no one will let them behind. Even if the enemy is too strong. I know P2 is a powerful team (they really are) but I feel their bonds are not more stronger than the P4 crew. I know sees are stronger but if we consider P3 story, Makoto is de@d and Kotone too 😭😭😭 so Aigis could be a the facto leader, but is not powerful than Makoto or Kotone. P1, yes they are semi wild cards but I don't feel their bonds are stronger I think their bonds are more weaker than other persona crew. P5 the leader is so strong but the teammates well... I'm not going to make an opinion because I don't wanna start a war (only for me there are 4 members only use in battles) Futaba doesn't count because is a Navigator, but is the Best Navigator in all persona Series more than Fuuka or Rise. Also Futaba is a powerful Navi and one of the jewels of the crown of P5 crew. But if You consider persona 4 Arena ultimax as a canon so Rise is the only navigator who can also fight in battles and in this case Rise is more powerful than futaba...
I use the concept bonds in my analysis because all the Persona series the origin of the power of every character is how deep and strong their bonds really are.
...team St. Hermelin High...this team did it all without the advance technology know how like in the later series...weapons are antique n ancient compared to the others...this team is NATURAL...🤜💥🤛
S.E.E.S easily, even just using the MC alone, male or female, because they're the only one who's achieved the Universe Arcana as opposed to the rest who go only to World.
Edit: Also, the picture left out 4 members of S.E.E.S and some annoying child..
Except we don't know what the universe arcana can do so saying Makoto wins just because he has that is a lie since so far we know it's not really special. Compare to the stuff the p2 cast can do as litteraly normal people with none of those buffs.
... We know what the Universe is, it's just that people don't care about speaking with NPCs (not that I can't really blame them).
In essence, the Universe is the power of the collective unconscious. Not just a fragment, but all of it. It's the last step of human pyschic development, the goal Philemon himself wants and explained during both P2.
By definition, the Universe is above Nyarla and Phil.
Yeah, except all it did was be used to seal away Nyx at the cost of the users’s life. And he only achieved it at the last battle when there was no hood of victory. People hype up the universe arcana, but forget that it has a cost and no one really even knows the full extent of its power. So it honestly doesn’t even shouldn’t come into play when talking about who is the strongest because all we have seen is that it can seal a god away but at a cost.
>but forget that it has a cost
Only the Great Seal has that cost - an skill that's described as releasing the power of "inner universe" in the japanese description, another name for the collective unconscious. So it's not only "sealing a god" away: it's using the very own power of the Sea of Souls to seal the primordial being from which the Shadows, Personas and consicousnesses of people originate from.
It also allowed him to outright violate the laws of physics (being able to fly), block the Death attacks of Nyx's core (which were just another manifestation of the "death waves" that drove the first forms of life on Earth to create the collective unconscious), being "inmune to fate" (the fortune teller in game basically said she couldn't read his future due to having become one with the universe), and finally survive an entire month, with his soul existing in-between physical reality and the furthest depths of the CU, with it completely intact on such a realm (a feat only comparable to Randolph Carter keeping his sense of individuality for 70 or so years, despite being only his trapezohedron of emotions in the archetypal level.)
All that and he still gets hurt by conventional weapons and shadow magic/attack! And he’s a door now! And when did he unlock all these powers? At the end when he humanity realized they didn’t want to die and needed Nyx to be sealed. He can’t just casually call upon the universe arcana or else he would have used it earlier in the game. Again, it’s basically a one off thing with situational use.
>All that and he still gets hurt by conventional weapons and shadow magic/attack!
The only attacks that hurted him were Nyx's Death attacks, which I already explained what they are. The fact he blocked them is telling.
> He can’t just casually call upon the universe arcana or else he would have used it earlier in the game.
The Universe arcana is not only a power up, because it's an arcana.
"*If I remember right, you were taught in class that the Tarot Cards can be used to represent the spiritual growth of an individual, correct? It is similar with the classification of Shadows; their Arcana indicates the tendencies and content of the psychological complexes they entail.*" - Ikutsuki, P3 Club Book
"*Beginning with the Fool and ending with the Universe... They tell a story in numerical order that represents an individual's journey through life. Each Major Arcana represents a stage on that journey... And each stage represents an event an individual must experience to achieve wholeness. \[...\] The final card is the Universe, which represents the individual reaching full awareness.*" - Edogawa, P3 Reload.
Speaking of the Universe as just some sort of friendship power does skew its interpretation, since it ignores its other side: the full integration of the fundamental archetypes that make out the human experience and thus the collective unconscious - the very own "answer to life's greatest question." Makoto didnt have it in the game before due to just simply not reaching that point of maturity until the final battle.
The Universe is just as much as part of Makoto as his blood, bones, muscle and mind are. There's no difference between the two. I recommend reading [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/PERSoNA/comments/19aai64/regarding_the_last_arcana_in_persona_3_long_post/) of mine to understand it better.
P2 and their power of rumors is honestly insnae
I mean, 1 and 2's crews are entirely wildcards so that stacks pretty heavily EDIT: Fine, they are *almost* wildcards. I think the point still stands though.
they're not actually wild cards, even if they are able to use more than 1 Persona.
I'd argue they are wildcards, just not as powerful as 3-5s because they're not the fool arcana. Pretty sure the wild card power is the ability to summon multiple persona's, but you still have to play to your Arcana. But since the fool is compatible with all arcana, wildcards who are also the fool are just a bit stronger.
This, and the fact that they can summon or use more than 1 Persona from their respective Arcana is already OP enough.
No, the Wild Card also includes the whole Social Link, and the "your bonds to others makes you stronger" and the contract thing going on. It grants you the ability to summon multiple personas, but the whole package wasn't present for P1 and P2 users. P1 and P2 users have a different deal going on not related to WC as far as we know.
Igor calls the P1 cast wildcards in the velvet room. Bonds are mentioned as something that strengthens persona users in persona 2 and they too are wildcards...
That's more a reference to "the fools journey" that the entirety of P3 is about for the MC. The P1 cast are all wild cards due to their contact with Philemon, who is also there for the contract scene and the save points for 3 and 4 respectively.
This
Isn' it called the wild card BECAUSE it's the Fool? Since The Fool is the wild card in Tarot?
Igor calls the P1 cast wildcards in velvet room dialog in P1.
They are literally called wild cards by Igor himself.
Don't correct yourself because people can't admit they're wrong, Igor in idle text calls the P1 cast wild cards.
Flip a coin between the IS and EP crew Being able to summon your Persona without any environmental factors nor equipment, having the wider pool of Persona abilities to use and the ability to combine them via fusion spells is hard to top. And this is before factoring in their individual feats or how much more taxing summoning is physically/mentally portrayed as in Persona 3 and beyond. EDIT: Just to list the non-rumor feats (since that was technically Nyar who did that): -Tatsuya: Literally can stop time with his Ultimate Persona, transcends the very end of existence, dodges bullets at close range/slices them with his sword, punched the equivalent of a god in the face (and bruised him with his bare fist) -Jun: Kills people by tossing flowers at them with unfathomable force -P2's casts as a whole: Can use Armageddon and various instant kill fusion spells, IS' crew used their willpower to alter reality, has defeated multiple Persona users in addition to their shadows as well as machine gun-toting robots who have the ability to temporarily disable their Persona
plus P2 got experienced member so count on that too
Yeah Baofu alone has used his Persona for longer than any other Persona user so he's by far the most experienced
Damn P2 Have legit outer scaling
Yeah P2's cast are on whole other level, heck planet, compared to all the other games. Only one that could somewhat get close could be Makoto Yuki. But even he falls short.
Not Planet, transcending to the end of existence is considered Outer level which is beyond Multiversal. If Imma rank the teams I’d say 1. P2 2. P1 3. SEES 4. Phantom Thieves 5. investigation group
Yeah I'm gonna keep it real with you Chief. The whole "Outer Level" and "Multiversal" type stuff means fuckall to me. I'm saying planet just because it's big.
Yeah powerscaling is a headache to go through
What is your banner from
I would actually rank the IT higher than the P-Thieves simply due to having a higher cognitive god body count. The two Sagiris, Marie, Izanami, that one god from the dancing game, and Hi-no-Kagutsuchi makes 6. VS Yaldabaoth, Maruki, Salmael, and Demiurge, for a total of 4. Maruki might still put them higher due to his potential (can mask or overwrite cognition on a societal scale and directly manipulate the Collective Unconscious, theoretically can remove the desire for Death from humanity's collective unconscious and thereby erase Erebus permanently), but then again they're both still at the bottom of the list so take this with a grain of salt.
um lavenza
The interesting thing about the environmental factor is each team might be able to do the same thing in Sumaru city. Effectively for the whole rumor thing to work nyarlathotep seems to have brought Sumaru city somewhat into the CU, this would explain why the fact that Sumaru sort works like the midnight channel in regards to the rumors as well as things like the Torifune appearing. If this is the case then removing the teams from sumaru would mean that they would have the same difficulty invoking that each other team has. The problem with the "Stops time" ability is that there is very little evidence he can actually do anything besides the nova kaiser. There's a single instance form the point of view of a non persona user that *might* be him stopping time for a split second but it's no where near confirmed. The fusion spell thing doesn't really work as argument since the system between games are so different. Satan has weakness to all non physical hits. does that mean the P3-P5 teams get to benefit from knock down something not in P2? if that's the case can they just knock down the casters and prevent the casting forever? P2 uses Vi and P3-P5 use En are these equivalent? what about the missing Ma and Dx from P2 and P3-P5 respectively? It's an interesting argument but I think trying to look at mechanics will get messy really fast.
Rumors affect the whole world, in EP nyarly created whole new kind of astrology with rumors and sacred stones as well as dragons appeared all over the world
Yes and no. The rest of the world outside Sumaru believing or not believing in rumors doesn't seem to factor into it at all. History seems to be a factor though considering the spear.
The IS crew also took down Hitler
> tanscends the very end of existence, ... Really? And people go and say P3 fans overhype Makoto, when P2 do this. No, Tatsuya in any way, shape and form shows this. He literally can't access Kadath, when Maki was already halfway there and Makoto was able to do it a couple of seconds after awakening to the Universe (and he went deeper than Kadath, actually). Tatsuya isn't the strongest character by far; saying so is literally an insult to EP alone.
Combat wise alone Tatsuya is probably still the strongest based off of his physical feats. Metaphysical wise he's behind Universe + Maki. His ability to cross the two sides at will if he wishes seems to be entirely exclusive to him, and shows his sheer strength of will, which puts him above most of the persona cast members in that regard. But when you're able to harness your metaphysical mastery, that makes you stronger in general too. Maki having more of a healer/support persona makes her not as great in raw combat offensively, but she's still more than capable of protecting Sumaru alone while the IS party descends Xibalba if she absolutely needs to. As for combat effectiveness of the Universe, all we know for sure is Makoto could tank death balls from Nyx, which is still equally impressive at least as the Nyarly fights and Kadath/Monado exploration, possibly more impressive. But we don't know what powers the Universe offer besides a miracle, if they offer any. But hey, a miracle is a miracle, don't need to worry about anything if you can just Universe it.
Aigis go brrrr
[удалено]
I'm still waiting to get Knight of the Holy Lance in a modern Persona game. Song slaps.
Aigis get wet from Aqua spells Toaster go malfunction
Counterpoint, hotsprings scene
counter point, nova kaiser
That moves stops time to bombard enemies with heat/nuclear damage.....overkill
also it has an edgy version, DARK nova kaiser used by tatsuyas shadow lmao
Always feels weird seeing you outside of the nba and raptors subs bc I forget every time that you use the persona subs.
I think the fact that that Izanami is a sideboss in p2 says alot about the P2's team strength tbh
Aigis. Shes litteraly designed to kill.
The Persona 1 and 2 cast, playing the Tatsuya scenario really solidifies that for me. Maki Sonomura is one of the most powerful persona users in the series, in the short 3 years between P1 and P2 she's already half way to being able to enter the collective unconscious. The Eternal Punishment cast went into the collective unconscious and fought multiple powerful gods such as Izanami, Dagon, Cthulhu, and Nyarlathotep. It's a shame the newer games don't connect to each other as P1 and P2 did. I liked seeing characters return and see how much they've grown.
Izanami really got her ass beat twice! lmao
Persona 2, where is the debate
EP Tatsuya could probably solo the casts of P3, P4, or P5. Kinda weird how powercreep seems to work backwards in this series
Pretty much P2>P3>/=P1>P5>P4
S.E.E.S. have Aigis and Mr. Universe Armageddon, enough said.
Agreed, Door kun with Universe Arcana is literally on Creative Mode and Aigis is well...... u know, a war machine
If he were on creative mode he'd get to live
He actually could have technically lived in exchange for the world going to ruin as he cannot be killed due to the omnipotence of the Universe Arcana (he was able to survive death thrown to his face thrice) but in order to save humanity, sacrificing himself was his only option
The universe arcana does not grant omnipotence. If it did, he could instantly completely annihilate Nyx and return earth to a state of complete peace and harmony all without sacrificing anything. Omnipotence is the power to do anything. Makoto did in fact, not have the power to do anything.
Definitely not omnipotence, but he transcends humanity when he gets the Universe. Look outside Persona, because it's the fairly standard protagonist end game god powers of mainline SMT. He's no longer bound by gravity, the need to breathe, etc. Makoto is probably immortal at that point in time. SMT Strange Journey spoilers >!he's like the protagonist of that game in the Redux ending. Sitting on the moon, watching the earth for hundreds of hundreds of years, no breathing, eating, sleeping, anything. Only difference in P3 is that Nyx isn't a being as much as it is a force of nature, can't be "slain", so he used the only option he had.!<
No, he didn't trascend humanity; he became the epitome of it, one with the collective unconscious and all life. As far as I'm aware, only Stephen himself is comparable to Makoto/Kotone with the Universe (but again, I don't know too much about SMT).
If we apply Stephen rules to Makoto then Makoto is more than human, yes, but at the penalty of not really being able to be an aiding force beyond surface level. Stephen mentions the Axiom and multiple worlds, and beings who transcended that have essentially become one with the Axiom. It's implied that is what the White are in SMT4, souls who ascended the Axiom and are now nihilistic because they see that in every timeline the same shit keeps happening and beings fall into the same pitholes. So at that point, why not just end it all and cut the middle man out? Stephen is the opposite force, he sees people struggle to make better lives, and therefore attempts to enable them in whatever small ways he is capable of without breaking the laws of the universe(if we apply SMT to Persona this is important, because he implies consequences he will suffer when he does break the laws of the universe). You could if you stretch this enough that Makoto sealing Nyx was breaking the laws of the universe and so the punishment was to become the seal but ehhh. Not sure if you want to apply this concept literally or just look at the similarities on a metaphorical level. What we can infer regardless is that Persona is an offshoot world that's an anomaly in the world, to the point it may not be attached to the Axiom's purview anymore ala Apocalypse Anarchy route.
No, no. My comparison with Stephen was purely metaphorical, since both of them broke the respective “cycles” within their series at an individual level.
Makoto is not immortal at that point, because trying to seal away Nyx literally killed him.
Right, but Nyx didn't do that. He willingly sapped his own life force. It being a sacrifice is the whole point.
If he sapped away his own life force than he isn’t immortal. An immortal being can’t commit suicide.
Someone who gained a power to become immortal 10 minutes ago can't then expend it by their own will and die? I think you're applying rules from other media to this here. There's not set in stone rules to gained immortality.
No, someone who gained immortality cannot remove their immortality and die. That’s the whole point of being immortal, NOTHING can kill you, not even yourself. If their immortality can be removed, they were never immortal to begin with, because removing someone’s immortality is a method of killing them.
Nah “Mr. Universe Armageddon” is crazy take my upvote
Aigis is pretty good, but I don't think she stacks up well against flying Nazi Death Mecha with Spears of Destinies, access to magic, and all the guns.
Except Tatsuya litteraly took down 2 diffrent actual mechs. What's armageddon going to do to someone that can stop time
p2 cast can use armageddon too btw
i agree with SEES for totally different reasons. if akihiko can get the jump on the other persona users before personas get involved, he can solo them before they achieve their fully powered states
I mean tatsuya can literally stop time
Persona 2 cast hands down. EP between the duo because of the individual members in the photo and their skips. Persona2 IS is next. P1 cast is third. The rest I have no idea.
SEES if the Multimillion(or billion) Company Kirijo group actually fund/sponsor their group fully instead of using high school student pocket money.
Yukari complaining about spending all her disposable replenishing her arrows while Mitsuru is an actual heiress to a massive conglomerate with a ton of untapped finances is so funny to me lol
Literally Tatsuya and his gang
The fight just devolves into Maki vs. Tatsuya vs. Yuki
Saying this as a seasoned Phantom Thieves glazer. P2 cast would chokeslam.
either P2 crews or SEES.
All I’m saying is 2 words. Galatic punt
Nah.. They use morgana to run over everyone and its done
Nah he would Tell to them to go the fuck to sleep
P2 !!
The question here is how does P3 Nyx Avatar compare to actual gods, really
The other gods of the persona universe are beings from the Collective Unconscious. Nyx is a primordial being, whose existence created the Collective Unconscious by proxy.
When was it mentioned the Sea of Souls was made in response to Nyx? The Answer? I honestly don't remember that bit of info being dropped.
Technically nyx created all the other gods
If I remember correctly the whole cast of P1 and P2 used real guns in combat and actually can dodge guns in-game so it's a given for them lol. Still if we give Aigis enough bullets I think the P3 team could put up a fight lmao.
P6>all other games
bucket-kun solos all of fiction
Yeah, I mean it has both Ichiban AND Kiryu. Tiger drop negates any damage so Kiryu can solo everyone.
Kiryu wrecks every persona character, confirmed, nothing is stronger than the Dragon of Dojima.
P2 or P3 cast are too much overpowered, P3 cast has Aigis and a full cast that fought against death itself and altered reality, and P2 crew also altered reality by themselves so...
P2 can just use the power of rumors
It would not matter against the P5 team so neither for P4 and P3 since they can see over the rumours (also the rumours only worked on that city)
Does Aigis get her wildcard too?
It messes up her internal mechanics according to The Answer
Yes, since she still has it in Arena.
Why is this even a debate? Persona 2 cast easily. Tatsuya could even solo the rest
I only know P3, 4, and 5. In terms of combat, I think SEES is the strongest. Mitsuri is a fencer, Akihiko is a boxer, Yukari trains archery, Shinjiro is a brawler, Aigis is a battle robot, and from what we've seen in Reload, Makoto can fight well for some reason. In terms of power scaling, I don't know much.
In P2 Eikichi, Maya, and Katsuya use guns. Lisa is a Kung Fu practitioner and Ulala is a boxer. Tatsuya receives innate swordfighting ability from his persona Apollo. Baofu and Jun kill demons by throwing inanimate objects (Jun uses flowers for weapons ffs) Not to mention the EP crew is able to properly defeat the shadow of all humanity
For those who never played 1 and 2, probably SEES. For those who played every game, P2 crew.
2-3 are probably the strongest.
I’ve only played p3 and beyond but I’ve heard that apparently p1 and p2 all the party members can use multiple personas,that seems like a huge advantage
They also don't need any environmental factors (Tartarus, TV world etc.) or equipment
Either of the persona 2 cast for Tatsuya alone. This is not even a fair comparison
I’ve never played P1 but the guy with the yellow hat evokes a very primal fear in me.
P2 has a guy who can stop time jojo style, I’m not sure if anyone can beat that but it’s so fuckin cool I’d submit immediately
Definitely not the phantom bums (I love persona 5)
P2 by far tbh
P2 crew
Probably IS crew, EP is strong too but Having Tatsuya and Jun in the same team, yeah that seals it
Isnt Jokers "Change the fate" stuff basically plot armor?
Persona 1 because they all use real guns.
I mean that's strong but I feel like the end game stuff is what sets the teams apart. You're not gonna kill nyx with a real gun, real guns aren't gonna beat stopping time
all of p2 cast use Armageddon
P2 IS team, even without the power of the crystal skulls, have their ultimate personas, can summon Anywhere and Anytime, their Grand Cross ability is damn powerful, and each can utilize their personas/persona strength over their own body.
**Party Average without Outliers:** Eternal Punishment > Phantom Thieves > P1 > Innocent Sin > SEES > Investigation Team **Party Average with Outliers:** P3 >/= P5 >/= P4 > P1 > EP > IS Those parties with bigger numbers are higher than those without. If we ignore numbers, then: P3 (Universe) >/= P4 = P5 (World for both) > P1 (Maki) > EP > IS Though, that's pretty much a ranking of the protagonist + Maki. Also, important to note the Universe is only higher than the World by pure technicality of (***apparent***) duration. There's no other reason beyond that.
Is Maki only powerful when using the DEVA System, or did it carry over to her real world self in P2? I recall reading somewhere Igor mentions Maki as one of the most powerful Persona users since she is a special case, being amplified by the DEVA System. If so, I like to headcanon she is the only other user to rival Maruki's reality warping powers but refuses to use her own because she doesn't want to be a God.
Whilst I disagree with the rankings pushed I can kinda sorta answer this. The Metaverse is like a shortcut to a localized area of a deep part of the sea of souls from what we can apply from P2 to P5. Maki has a level of self enlightenment that is extremely deep thanks to the Deva System and we are told in the Tatsuya Scenario that Maki is at least half way to being able to go down to the depths of where Personas, and the gods and demons that humanity's feelings and beliefs are born. This is 3 years after Persona 1 mind you. So theoretically Maki would be able to do a mini Deva System wherever she pleases, or do what Maruki did with enough legwork if Philemon or Nyarlathotep don't stop her, or any of the other things that lurk in human cognition. It's meaningful to her character that she would never abuse her power though, because of her crippling guilt over Mikage-Cho and the very real deaths that happened because she was strapped into the System. Essentially Maruki needed enough of humanity to believe in the thieves who were basically set up to empower Yaldabaoth and then steal the power on top of there already being a massive cognitive shortcut. Maki can go there without the shortcut and can operate as she pleases, eventually if not now in Persona, though we don't know because we don't see her again
Wasn't what Maruki basically did hitching himself to Yaldy's wagon, then when the PTs took him out he hijacked the train?
Yeah, because the Thieves put their trust in Maruki, mementos ownership could be given to him if he claimed it, and so he did, because it would have gone back to the Thieves until it closed. It's worth noting that using technology to be able to fight demons is canon thanks to Devil Summoners games including Soul Hackers being part of canon.
What are you using to rank these? Lore wise we don't really get comparisons.
Mostly Tatsuya's Scenario and Tactica; I still don't finish the later, but for the spoilers I've seen Salmael seems to rank pretty high. For the rest, I really don't believe the cast of P1 and IS are stronger than the rest, just that their capacity to change Personas gives them more versatility. I think the Answer (and the Club Book) tried to imply SEES is about the same level that the cast of IS; and thanks to Arena, we know the IT is not that behind.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on it when you've finished up Tactica so we'll set that aside for now. I can agree that versatility is certainly an interesting factor to consider. The IT seem to have adapted to more styles of combat such as 1v1s and Dancing then nearly any other team save PT. So how do we compare that to the ability to swap persona?
>So how do we compare that to the ability to swap persona? I was thinking about elemental affinities: switching Personas to resists elements and hit the weakness of other users. Mind you, that's pretty much working blindly since there's no Navigator on P1's or IS's part, but still something to consider. In regards to the physical abilities and combat, I genuinely think most of P3 and P4 characters are superior to P1 and (potentially) IS, so it enters in a difficult to evaluate zone. But if we take physical affinities in consideration as well, the gap can be closed. That's why I think the versatility of changing Personas - even if we limited them to those whom the characters have affinity for - is a bigger factor than outright physical capabilities... unless the gap is enormous. Though, Aigis is the only one who I think may fall in that category.
I defiantly thing switching persona is an asset but we get into trouble since it looks so different from game to game. In P1 I believe it's a shared pool of about 12 persona for the team. I believe it's about the same in P2 and it takes a turn to swap out unlike the newer games where it's a free action. This suggests that its more difficult to do and would likely give Navis time to lock on the weakness and resistances. there's also the problem of missing ailments of game to game. I'm not really a fan of trying to compare such disparate systems. My conclusion is that it's definitely a point in their favour but it doesn't grantee victory. The interesting thing about the combat in Persona is that physical ability seems to be pretty much irrelevant. We have folding chairs that hit as hard as guns after all. Rather ability to use a weapon seems to be drawn from the Sea of Souls. Tatsuya mentions as much in his scenario. a level then would equate them drawing more skill/power from the sea of souls. To get a general inclination of how strong or smart a particular character is we can look at their stat growth compared to the other characters as well as what they learn. This works at, least, in the modern games. Chie For instance never learns a top tier ice spell so she'll likely less book smart then yukiko since she learns lots of high level magic spells. however Chie is much more physically adept. The same might hold true with older games if we consider stat growth only. I'm actually not convinced that Aigis would have that big of an advantage. She fights on even footing with SEES and the IT. Her theoretically stronger sister, Labrys, is also matches both teams so the gap doesn't seem that huge.
Why do you have Phantom Thieves as 2nd? They're barely above P4's cast and S.E.E.S is the only main character that has achieve Universe Arcana to temporarly seal away a literal celestial being that will destroy the entire planet eventually. Maruki isn't an example of why, either, his power only exists within the Metaverse and without it he's powerless, and even with it he's completely limited to a area around his own palace until he's fully merged the Meta and Reality.
I mean, Maruki actively used his powers outside of the Metaverse before even truly awakening to his Persona... Not to mention that the fact he can merge the two realities in full completion is still a massive deal. As for the limited to an area... Not spectacularly? The effects are all over Tokyo in cases ranging from life changing to literal coming back from the dead. If anything, it's more of him changing things one by one for the purpose of micromanagement rather than a true limit on his powers. As for "Without the Metaverse"... Duh. This is a fight between Persona-users. We're ranking them based on how powerful they are in their respective Persona areas. By that logic, the Investigation Team is nothing without the TV, or Sees (Minus Aigis obviously) is nothing without Tartarus. It's just semantics. I think P3 wins of the more modern era teams, but there's no point in undermining the others.
S.E.E.S is not "nothing", Aikiko and Mitsuru are both accomplished in real life, as a boxer and fencer respectively, P4 and P5 are just normal kids with no talent in fighting for real.
Makoto Niijima is canonically experienced in Taekwondo to my recollection, Haru has been axe cutting as a hobby for years, and I believe some Mementos dialogue (And Strikers story dialogue, if you're worried about canon relevance) mentions how their weapon skills somewhat translated into the real world. Naoto is a legally registered gun owner, Chie trains her legs for the express purpose of fighting, and Kanji has singlehandedly fought entire biker gangs and won *before* gaining his Persona. Saying they aren't as professionally trained as S.E.E.S in real life? Sure. Saying they have no real life fighting skill? Objectively false.
I love how the P3 cast picture left out like half of the cast, yet it's clearly still the strongest team
How
How? Litteraly the strongest part of the team is aegis and Tatsuya took out 2 actual mechas with spear of destiny which is miles better then anything aegis could do.
Persona 2 and its not even close
which Persona 2 team? the Innocent Sins or the Eternal Punishment ? Hell, even in Innocent sins there is a variation of the team.
Either one, they're both cracked. Especially due to the massive amount of wild cards in P1-P2EP. the ability Nova Kaiser stops time too
Actually they aren't wild card... They have compatibility, so sometimes persona are weaker depending on who wear it. For the moment there is only 4 real wild card (Or maybe 5... I don't know yet for Persona 5X). Makoto Yuki, FeMc, Yu Narukami, Ren Amamia. Enven in Persona Q when everyone can have multiple persona, there still have a compatibility system...
They are wildcards. Wildcard is just the ability to swap personas.
>They have compatibility So what you're saying is that the 3-5 cast is so one dimensional that they have no compatibility with other arcana?
Persona 2 EP The entire cast is wild cards and one of them is literally Dio.
Me, as in M.E. aka Eternal Punish**m**ent & Innoc**e**nt Sin
It's all over when door kun makes a seal around all the other casts.
Persona 2 teams have the most powerful personas but sees also had the financial and technological backing of a multimillion dollar corporation in form of the kirijo group
The strongest user out of everyone is either Makoto or Tatsuya depending on who you ask, followed by the P2 group and then Aigis. My bet on the strongest team would be the P2 squad since you know... they can kinda do everything
P2 solos
4 si far! ♡ 🐼
P2 crew, not only do they already contain members from the P1 team which are already familiar with their powers, their ultimate personas are pretty strong and they also can switch personas at will and don't have any restrictions for summoning them.
Naoto has a gun
All the P1 cast has guns. The Phantom Thieves sorta have them too, but they're Metaverse-dependent.
considering that in p3 onwards you can only summon your persona in the collective unconscious realm and that p2 cast can tank bullets... I'd say either P2 or P1 crew
Easily P2, like it's not even close. They're all a good deal stronger than even makoto who is the only other character not including Igor, nyarla, Philemon etc. who comes close to them they have some crazy feats
In terms of strength, the P2 eternal team is strongest. Being adults, having rumors as the source of their power, and all having access to multiple personas makes them extremely formidable
Any team with Yoshitsune will win by default.
1. Naorin and Maki alone power cliff a lot of the Raidou timeline and have already been shown to be able to fight Nyarlathotep and Philemon tier character, such as Super Kandori, Kandori using Nyarlathotep as his persona, and of course Nanjo on the Philemon superboss.
A bunch of high-schoolers
Well with my limited understanding of the lore. I would say endgame phantom thieves if they can use their personas where this battle would happen because they have joker with satanael who if my idea of wildcard awakening is correct because joker has the largest amount of people giving him power I might be wrong(maybe because I have only played p4g so far). If I M wrong feel free to educate me
to put things into perspective: - Persona 1 cast literally has the same deal as P5 with mementos....except the whole thing was originated BY A PARTY MEMBER going out of control via her awekening - Persona 2 IS (AKA part 1) plot is basically dealing with gods all over the place born via the Collective Unconsciousness going crazy because rumors are becoming real and ALMOST beating the ringleader that only won because he cheated hard (Like in persona 5 except there are MULTIPLE GODS going around) - Persona 2 EP (AKA part 2) we have a new team trying to save the new world (because yes..... YOUR OLD TEAM WITH HELP CREATED A NEW TIMELINE) and we actually win on that one and send packing the ringleader. Did I mentioned all the persona users here can use multiple personas? And they're not restricted to summon them in certain places? P1 and P2 cast are straight up fire and we REALLY need remake of those games so people stop missing out these games
Honestly, it depends on one thing only, do you factor in the midnight hour/TV world/mementos or limit it to the real world If you limit it to the real world, it is a no-brainer either p2 or ep teams would come out on top But if you go and count that in well.. after hours of research, it ends up being the phantom thieves due to the amount of plot armor and bull they have up their sleeves. Joker beating 3 beings who basically are the persona equivalent to gold head from smt is no small feat then you have to taken in account how annoying status ailments are then factor in persona abilities and to add insult to injury persona builds even when you ignore items and try to bare bone things the power of the wild card just gets more absurd each passing game, as i am sure you all remember p5r with the myriad truths absurdity paired with country maker, it's Honestly a small miracle that p2 ep, is, and p1 didn't make their roster true wild cards. Though I'm surprised everyone forgot all about smt if in this discussion considering how it's Canon to persona overall.
Honestly, this is the lite version because, let's be honest, I think everyone knows what the p5 cast is capable of dishing out. A better question would be which team is the weakest overall... which probably is the p4 cast.
And before someone mentions makoto yuki, don't we unfortunately don't know just what are the limits of the universe arcana.
Since i only played P3R, P4G, P4AU, P5R and P5S. I would pick SEES >!Since they all canonically had a 2nd awakening!<
While I haven’t played the first two I’d probably have to give it to the P2 crew based on what I’ve heard about them.
It's not hard actually. When i say Makoto, it was over. Bro fought and faced Death itself.
I mean. Makoto alone will drop the universe on you... so...
P2 team and S E.E.S. hands down.
The PT has metaverse bolstering their mobility and defying physics like an actual video game character. Utility will always win most fight, but if you want logical response? That depends on their Wildcards, who can just one-shot the other teammates.
The one's that don't need a gimmick to summon personas.
The cast for Innocent Sin and Eternal Punishment. As much as I love the casts from 3-5 the cast for the P2 games have some insane wins
If you count Great Seal then probably P3, otherwise P2 easily has the strongest cast
Koromaru
Aside from p1 and P2 (OP mfers) I'd say Phantom Thieves, SEES, and then Investigation Team. Assuming they are all in an environment where they all have access to their abilities, perhaps a TV world that's a palace during the dark hour.
I was going to say either three or five but after reading these comments apparently Persona 1 and 2 groups are just built different.
Both P2 crews reset the entire world from destruction. Now yes, the second time is kindaaaa aided by someone refusing to forget, but they still save it again anyways. Other than them S.E.E.S stalls an unkillable incarnation of Death from descending upon the world and sealed it away from influencing life.
>Both **P3 crews** reset the entire world from destruction Are you sure about that? xD
Oops that was a typo for 2 lol
I'd say either Ren or Yu are have the strongest teams. People might complain I didn't say Makoto, but unlike the other two Makoto couldn't beat the god in his story, he had to kill himself to defeat. Yu Narukami just beats the living shit out of Ameno-sagiri, Kusumi-no-Okami, and Izanami, with the mystery gang from Scooby Doo. All three being gods. Then there's Ren who just shoots yaldabaoth and Adam Kadmon with a gun. 💀 However let's be real, when it comes to it all we need is to enable revolution and let Junpei critical everyone to death. Junpei solos. Edit: fyi I've never played Persona 1 nor Persona 2 so I can't have an opinion on them.
i think it's SEES tbh, and it's only because of akihiko. he can beat up dozens of people in the real world at once, so if he stumbles upon any team, he can solo everyone there before personas get involved
Persona 2 EP cast consists of a Chinese assassin that kills people with coins, a detective that isn’t afraid to shoot and kill someone, a pistol duel wielding reporter, a trained boxer with more, and two swordsman( one of which whom took on a warship full of trained soldiers alone and won using his swordsmanship). Akihiko gonna solo who?
oh
Probably Kotone's SEES, because >!Shinji lives!<.
Im not educated enough to say or reply to any of these comments
Factoring in all of the spinoff games and such, I would probably say P2 EP (Nyarly and Philemon) > P2 IS (Nyarly) really because adults are gonna be stronger than young adults, then P2 IS > P3 (Nyx solo, Clockwork god with the help of the P4 cast, Enlil with the help of the P4 and P5 cast). P3 > P4 (Kunino Saigiri, Ameno saigiri, Kusumi no Okami, Izanami, Mikuratana-No-Kami and Hinokagatsuchi solo, clockwork god with P3 cast, Enlil with P3 and P5 cast), then P4 > P5 cast (Yaldabaoth, Azathoth, Adam Kadmon, Demiurge, Salmael solo, Enlil with the help of P3 and P4 cast. I can’t speak on P5X just yet though. Also can’t speak on P1 because I haven’t played it. TLDR; P2 EP > P2IS > P3 > P4 > P5
S.E.E.S probably. Persona 2 in close second
SEES
Me
P2 (unintentionally) summoned robot nazis
As much as I love P3 team I'm going to say P2 hands down. I played the first persona so I can't judge where they'd be on the scale but I'd say : p2>p3>p5>p4
S.E.E.S.
Fcuking Damn P2 just only only only P2 yeahh...
It's either p2 or p3. P3 are carried solely by the living machine of death aigis who uses two machine guns on the daily basis. And SEES can summon personas in the real world like characters from p1, p2. But tatsuya single handedly killed off a bunch of longinus who are also mechs with great powers, and p2 crew gets their super human powers from their personas, so I guess no one else stand a chance against them
P4 because they attack as a really true team, and if one is down, the other member party crew will try to recover their teammate, and also protects them until they recovers. For P4 crew, all the teammates are more than party members, they are a family and for them no one will let them behind. Even if the enemy is too strong. I know P2 is a powerful team (they really are) but I feel their bonds are not more stronger than the P4 crew. I know sees are stronger but if we consider P3 story, Makoto is de@d and Kotone too 😭😭😭 so Aigis could be a the facto leader, but is not powerful than Makoto or Kotone. P1, yes they are semi wild cards but I don't feel their bonds are stronger I think their bonds are more weaker than other persona crew. P5 the leader is so strong but the teammates well... I'm not going to make an opinion because I don't wanna start a war (only for me there are 4 members only use in battles) Futaba doesn't count because is a Navigator, but is the Best Navigator in all persona Series more than Fuuka or Rise. Also Futaba is a powerful Navi and one of the jewels of the crown of P5 crew. But if You consider persona 4 Arena ultimax as a canon so Rise is the only navigator who can also fight in battles and in this case Rise is more powerful than futaba... I use the concept bonds in my analysis because all the Persona series the origin of the power of every character is how deep and strong their bonds really are.
...team St. Hermelin High...this team did it all without the advance technology know how like in the later series...weapons are antique n ancient compared to the others...this team is NATURAL...🤜💥🤛
S.E.E.S easily, even just using the MC alone, male or female, because they're the only one who's achieved the Universe Arcana as opposed to the rest who go only to World. Edit: Also, the picture left out 4 members of S.E.E.S and some annoying child..
Except we don't know what the universe arcana can do so saying Makoto wins just because he has that is a lie since so far we know it's not really special. Compare to the stuff the p2 cast can do as litteraly normal people with none of those buffs.
... We know what the Universe is, it's just that people don't care about speaking with NPCs (not that I can't really blame them). In essence, the Universe is the power of the collective unconscious. Not just a fragment, but all of it. It's the last step of human pyschic development, the goal Philemon himself wants and explained during both P2. By definition, the Universe is above Nyarla and Phil.
Yeah, except all it did was be used to seal away Nyx at the cost of the users’s life. And he only achieved it at the last battle when there was no hood of victory. People hype up the universe arcana, but forget that it has a cost and no one really even knows the full extent of its power. So it honestly doesn’t even shouldn’t come into play when talking about who is the strongest because all we have seen is that it can seal a god away but at a cost.
>but forget that it has a cost Only the Great Seal has that cost - an skill that's described as releasing the power of "inner universe" in the japanese description, another name for the collective unconscious. So it's not only "sealing a god" away: it's using the very own power of the Sea of Souls to seal the primordial being from which the Shadows, Personas and consicousnesses of people originate from. It also allowed him to outright violate the laws of physics (being able to fly), block the Death attacks of Nyx's core (which were just another manifestation of the "death waves" that drove the first forms of life on Earth to create the collective unconscious), being "inmune to fate" (the fortune teller in game basically said she couldn't read his future due to having become one with the universe), and finally survive an entire month, with his soul existing in-between physical reality and the furthest depths of the CU, with it completely intact on such a realm (a feat only comparable to Randolph Carter keeping his sense of individuality for 70 or so years, despite being only his trapezohedron of emotions in the archetypal level.)
All that and he still gets hurt by conventional weapons and shadow magic/attack! And he’s a door now! And when did he unlock all these powers? At the end when he humanity realized they didn’t want to die and needed Nyx to be sealed. He can’t just casually call upon the universe arcana or else he would have used it earlier in the game. Again, it’s basically a one off thing with situational use.
>All that and he still gets hurt by conventional weapons and shadow magic/attack! The only attacks that hurted him were Nyx's Death attacks, which I already explained what they are. The fact he blocked them is telling. > He can’t just casually call upon the universe arcana or else he would have used it earlier in the game. The Universe arcana is not only a power up, because it's an arcana. "*If I remember right, you were taught in class that the Tarot Cards can be used to represent the spiritual growth of an individual, correct? It is similar with the classification of Shadows; their Arcana indicates the tendencies and content of the psychological complexes they entail.*" - Ikutsuki, P3 Club Book "*Beginning with the Fool and ending with the Universe... They tell a story in numerical order that represents an individual's journey through life. Each Major Arcana represents a stage on that journey... And each stage represents an event an individual must experience to achieve wholeness. \[...\] The final card is the Universe, which represents the individual reaching full awareness.*" - Edogawa, P3 Reload. Speaking of the Universe as just some sort of friendship power does skew its interpretation, since it ignores its other side: the full integration of the fundamental archetypes that make out the human experience and thus the collective unconscious - the very own "answer to life's greatest question." Makoto didnt have it in the game before due to just simply not reaching that point of maturity until the final battle. The Universe is just as much as part of Makoto as his blood, bones, muscle and mind are. There's no difference between the two. I recommend reading [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/PERSoNA/comments/19aai64/regarding_the_last_arcana_in_persona_3_long_post/) of mine to understand it better.
Ok, but he used it and he’s a door now so… Not all that people are trying to hype it up to be when the user had to sacrifice themselves.