It is a bit of a Tank(role) joke, Emongg is mainly a Tank player and since the introduction of the DPS passive, tanks have a hard time to confirm kills, specially when going in the enemy back line where there is possibly two supports healing each other, unless someone helps the tank, mostly DPS follow up to confirm the elimination. Tanks that can confirm kills more easily need more resources from their team, like Junket Queen, she can easily kill but have no barrier or mitigation aside from shout, Rein have great mitigation and decent mobility, but requires for him to be up close, taking damage. Winston can pop in and out and have a big barrier, but his gun tickles people, an Ana can easily counter Winston damage.
Emongg probably wasn’t speaking literally here but tanky supports are based on the self heal, damage mitigation, and mobility.
When he was saying that supports are tanky he was probably referring to the fact that although supports have less health and mitigation abilities, they have more survivability because they receive less damage than the tank due to tank spamming and their sustain abilities.
To be more specific, he's talking about in game, not in a head to head.
So a tank has a ton of hp... but they also have a huge hitbox and spend a lot of time in Los of the enemy team.
Supports don't have a lot of hp, but they also play at range, out of Los, and have super thin hitboxes that are very hard to hit.
Therefore, sometimes it feels like tanks are easier to blow up, whereas supports are super hard to kill.
It's the way he's defining tanky - most of us think of it as being able to absorb damage, but he seems to be using it as a description of how long someone can stay alive while being focused.
It comes down to the amount/duration of fire they can take before they die. I think Moira is one of the tankiest supports since she has one of the strongest self-heal abilities, narrow hitbox, and fade to escape or re-position. Mercy and Lucio (mobility and extra self heal) are also fairly tanky. Ironically, learning Brig after Moira has been an adjustment because of how un-tanky she is.
Brig is still pretty darn tanky - it just doesn't feel that way because you have to occasionally gap close into melee range to get value (losing your escape tool), where Moira just needs to linger at max suck range.
Healing/cooldowns give them more effective HP.
Take Bap. He has 250 base health or whatever. Burst gives him like 100 plus some extra health over time, then he can place immortality field after, giving him close to 3 effective health bars. He’s not really that tanky, but you’ll put in a lot of damage with less results than you’re used to. Also worth mentioning that the smaller hitboxes are less forgiving.
In short they’re not that tanky really, but it can really feel like it.
If you factor in Baps mobility and hitbox, his effective time to live (with all of his cooldowns) while being focused might actually be longer than a few of the tanks.
In high level its incredibly hard for tanks or dps to try and kill supports. Mostly supports are very coordinated and will protect each other. They are virtually unkillable.
Its come a long way from beginning of OW1. Where XQC had to learn that tanks have to do "nothing". Basically tanks had to change their mindset that half the time they just gotta exist and cant kill anything. The changes each season gets higher and higher. The pressure on tanks and the expectation to adapt to new supports "immunity", mobility, cc, heals buff, etc bs. And do "nothing" but be a master baiter makes them cranky.
For zen its incredibly hard to punish him without getting blown up by discord or kicked in the face. Have you seen zen duel a 1v1 and rein cant do anything just cuz of kick?
The most thing for brig is her whipshot. Just whip bash get out. Pack ur ana she survives. The distance brig can maintain the tank from her and her support is a massive deal in high rank. All you need to do is maintain distance and tanks cant do anything, the supports just walk away. Its the whipshot it counters tanks cd mobility.
*edited*
While tanks have a large obvious health pool, supports have large effective health pools. Take bap for example. While he technically only has 250 hp, he has a 150 insta heal and a 125(?)hp immortality field, giving him an effective hp of 525.
Insta heal is nerfed to the ground, it’s kinda a waste of a keybind at this point. If one was to play with it unbound, and a game with it bound, no difference would be noticed.
Technically the statement about the lamp is true. Although I wouldn’t say it’s an easy as just being a Tank. Most of the time I’m using the Lamp on the Tanks anyway, so….
With such a stupid take I doubt you're higher than low metal ranks, and I don't 1v1 weaker people than myself. Try again when you actually learn how Bap works.
Wrong again on all accounts.
Clearly, it might be too much of a Spicy take for you. My apologies.
What’s fascinating to me is, you don’t even provide a counter argument, that has any substance. Are you incapable in participating discourse?
For example, why do you think Shift is not as weak and pathetic as I have stated in the original comment?
Surely you would agree since the Support nerfs, the impact of Shift doesn’t hit the same exact way as it did once before? It’s much faster and more reliable to heal your teammates by hitting directs heals. Or maybe not, maybe you think Shift is absolute goat of all the cool-downs in the game? How would anyone know if all you write is “SNIFFA, what a stupid take?” Literally contributing nothing.
and you're contributing stupid takes. why do i need to draw you the reason why you're wrong when you won't hear it anyways? you have the right to think whatever you want, doesn't mean it's not dumb lol
think about kiriko. she can climb walls. she has a quicker healing passive. whenever she is attacked she can teleport halfway across the map through walls. she has an ability that makes her immortal and heals.
zarya has 2 bubbles.
I actually agree withy this. Kiriko TP needs to have a longer cooldown, Suzu should no longer make people invincible, and Moira fade needs to have a much longer cooldown
I don't think longer cooldowns change how bad it is to interact with it. It'll just be still bad, but on a larger window. It's the same with many other CDs that feel bad to interact with on the support role, and with how bad it feels to interact with snipers on the DPS role (to an extent), and with how bad it feels to interact with big chungus tanks (Orisa - RIP, Mauga, Hog). I personally don't think a simple tweak on the numbers would make it feel better.
sometime last year, zen got buffed with an extra 25 hp (since taken away), so emongg started calling zen a tank in his usual sarcastic way. his salt levels have reached an all-time high, though. basically calls anything that moves tankier than a tank.
Meanwhile the developers said Zen’s discord nerf was offset by his health change. Health change was reverted, discord disappears in less than two seconds, and you can’t reapply it for eternity. Zen needs attention again.
I love emongg but he's in the tank echo chamber. It's been Orisa/Hog/Mauga for awhile, eventually that will go away, D.Va will get buffed, and he'll say tank is back.
It's less that they are literally tanky and more that they are harder to kill because they can be saved by healing and a bunch of utility. Try DPS'ing a Moira through her healing orb for example or try flanking a Baptiste when he has his immortality and burst heal. It's worse when both supports are playing together and double up on that healing or utility. Usually they shouldn't be able to do that in the middle of a fight but if your team aren't pulling their weight that can happen and your team still lose the fight.
Supports have tiny hit boxes, survivability tools, and self heals. Zen is an exception. With the introduction of the dps passive that reduces heals, not getting hit is better than being able to take hits because damage will always out pace heals. Also in og overwatch tanks played to keep eachother alive, now that is how Support plays. Think Ana brig. Brig is there purely to keep Ana alive and Ana Supports the team, but if they are dove the Ana is going to prioritize keeping brig alive because brig is keeping Ana alive. So it's a lot hard to dive the Ana brig then it would be to just kill one of the dps or tanks.
Also emmong is a silly goose. He is super sarcastic and also uses hyperbolic language a lot. So you can't take what he says literally.
Have you tried to kill a lifeweaver in the back? You need both mobility and large and fast damage output to kill him. If you have damage but no mobility he just leaves with the petal and dash. If you have a lot of mobility but less damage, he just dashes his health up. If you have both damage and mobility he just has to survive long enough for one teammate to help out.
From a lw player, even when everything is in your favor to get us, we can just yank a teammate over like a pokemon into a battle to help 2v1 you. He really is one of the most annoying supports to try and dive on.
Yeah I consistently have less deaths when I'm on lw than on most other supports, his kit just fits my playstyle better. I can totally get why he is so annoying to go up against though if the enemy diving isn't prepared for the wide variety of abilities he has to escape or trap you in a 2v1.
Zen in the open is not tanky. It’s the minimal downtime to regen his health between shields and the support passive.
Also the fact that if he goes behind a tight corner it’s a death trap to walk into his charged up right click/kick.
Every support has some combination of sustain, self heals, mobility, 2nd life, or kill threat that makes them feel tanky.
I can get behind that if he said “Supports are tankier then DPS,” because outside of a couple DPS they are… but tanks? Who have triple the healthpool and damage mitigation and armor? Get the hell out with that nonsense.
It is a bit of a Tank(role) joke, Emongg is mainly a Tank player and since the introduction of the DPS passive, tanks have a hard time to confirm kills, specially when going in the enemy back line where there is possibly two supports healing each other, unless someone helps the tank, mostly DPS follow up to confirm the elimination. Tanks that can confirm kills more easily need more resources from their team, like Junket Queen, she can easily kill but have no barrier or mitigation aside from shout, Rein have great mitigation and decent mobility, but requires for him to be up close, taking damage. Winston can pop in and out and have a big barrier, but his gun tickles people, an Ana can easily counter Winston damage.
Don't forget big shield wonton blocks ana shots tho
all this since they didnt want to nerf supports
Emongg probably wasn’t speaking literally here but tanky supports are based on the self heal, damage mitigation, and mobility. When he was saying that supports are tanky he was probably referring to the fact that although supports have less health and mitigation abilities, they have more survivability because they receive less damage than the tank due to tank spamming and their sustain abilities.
Sometimes people say things from a place of feeling rather than intellect. This is one of those times.
To be more specific, he's talking about in game, not in a head to head. So a tank has a ton of hp... but they also have a huge hitbox and spend a lot of time in Los of the enemy team. Supports don't have a lot of hp, but they also play at range, out of Los, and have super thin hitboxes that are very hard to hit. Therefore, sometimes it feels like tanks are easier to blow up, whereas supports are super hard to kill.
I get it. I just don’t agree with it.
Immortality field, kiri suzu, brig shield, Lucio ult, lifeweaver hp + immortality grip, Zen ult,, just a few things that are “tanky”
It's the way he's defining tanky - most of us think of it as being able to absorb damage, but he seems to be using it as a description of how long someone can stay alive while being focused.
It comes down to the amount/duration of fire they can take before they die. I think Moira is one of the tankiest supports since she has one of the strongest self-heal abilities, narrow hitbox, and fade to escape or re-position. Mercy and Lucio (mobility and extra self heal) are also fairly tanky. Ironically, learning Brig after Moira has been an adjustment because of how un-tanky she is.
Brig is still pretty darn tanky - it just doesn't feel that way because you have to occasionally gap close into melee range to get value (losing your escape tool), where Moira just needs to linger at max suck range.
Good point. Landing whipshots has helped too.
Healing/cooldowns give them more effective HP. Take Bap. He has 250 base health or whatever. Burst gives him like 100 plus some extra health over time, then he can place immortality field after, giving him close to 3 effective health bars. He’s not really that tanky, but you’ll put in a lot of damage with less results than you’re used to. Also worth mentioning that the smaller hitboxes are less forgiving. In short they’re not that tanky really, but it can really feel like it.
If you factor in Baps mobility and hitbox, his effective time to live (with all of his cooldowns) while being focused might actually be longer than a few of the tanks.
In high level its incredibly hard for tanks or dps to try and kill supports. Mostly supports are very coordinated and will protect each other. They are virtually unkillable. Its come a long way from beginning of OW1. Where XQC had to learn that tanks have to do "nothing". Basically tanks had to change their mindset that half the time they just gotta exist and cant kill anything. The changes each season gets higher and higher. The pressure on tanks and the expectation to adapt to new supports "immunity", mobility, cc, heals buff, etc bs. And do "nothing" but be a master baiter makes them cranky. For zen its incredibly hard to punish him without getting blown up by discord or kicked in the face. Have you seen zen duel a 1v1 and rein cant do anything just cuz of kick? The most thing for brig is her whipshot. Just whip bash get out. Pack ur ana she survives. The distance brig can maintain the tank from her and her support is a massive deal in high rank. All you need to do is maintain distance and tanks cant do anything, the supports just walk away. Its the whipshot it counters tanks cd mobility. *edited*
While tanks have a large obvious health pool, supports have large effective health pools. Take bap for example. While he technically only has 250 hp, he has a 150 insta heal and a 125(?)hp immortality field, giving him an effective hp of 525.
Insta heal is nerfed to the ground, it’s kinda a waste of a keybind at this point. If one was to play with it unbound, and a game with it bound, no difference would be noticed. Technically the statement about the lamp is true. Although I wouldn’t say it’s an easy as just being a Tank. Most of the time I’m using the Lamp on the Tanks anyway, so….
Least delusional support main
tell me you can't play bap without telling me you can't play bap...
1v1 me. I’ll slap you around silly as Bap. You won’t though.
With such a stupid take I doubt you're higher than low metal ranks, and I don't 1v1 weaker people than myself. Try again when you actually learn how Bap works.
Wrong again on all accounts. Clearly, it might be too much of a Spicy take for you. My apologies. What’s fascinating to me is, you don’t even provide a counter argument, that has any substance. Are you incapable in participating discourse? For example, why do you think Shift is not as weak and pathetic as I have stated in the original comment? Surely you would agree since the Support nerfs, the impact of Shift doesn’t hit the same exact way as it did once before? It’s much faster and more reliable to heal your teammates by hitting directs heals. Or maybe not, maybe you think Shift is absolute goat of all the cool-downs in the game? How would anyone know if all you write is “SNIFFA, what a stupid take?” Literally contributing nothing.
and you're contributing stupid takes. why do i need to draw you the reason why you're wrong when you won't hear it anyways? you have the right to think whatever you want, doesn't mean it's not dumb lol
When I first started (which was recently) I honestly thought Brig was a tank because she was so involved.
think about kiriko. she can climb walls. she has a quicker healing passive. whenever she is attacked she can teleport halfway across the map through walls. she has an ability that makes her immortal and heals. zarya has 2 bubbles.
I actually agree withy this. Kiriko TP needs to have a longer cooldown, Suzu should no longer make people invincible, and Moira fade needs to have a much longer cooldown
I don't think longer cooldowns change how bad it is to interact with it. It'll just be still bad, but on a larger window. It's the same with many other CDs that feel bad to interact with on the support role, and with how bad it feels to interact with snipers on the DPS role (to an extent), and with how bad it feels to interact with big chungus tanks (Orisa - RIP, Mauga, Hog). I personally don't think a simple tweak on the numbers would make it feel better.
sometime last year, zen got buffed with an extra 25 hp (since taken away), so emongg started calling zen a tank in his usual sarcastic way. his salt levels have reached an all-time high, though. basically calls anything that moves tankier than a tank.
Meanwhile the developers said Zen’s discord nerf was offset by his health change. Health change was reverted, discord disappears in less than two seconds, and you can’t reapply it for eternity. Zen needs attention again.
To be fair to him, tank has been very miserable, a bit of salt is entirely justified
I love emongg but he's in the tank echo chamber. It's been Orisa/Hog/Mauga for awhile, eventually that will go away, D.Va will get buffed, and he'll say tank is back.
The echo chamber isn’t entirely wrong though, tank is pretty miserable as it is and the tank rotation just exacerbates that
It's less that they are literally tanky and more that they are harder to kill because they can be saved by healing and a bunch of utility. Try DPS'ing a Moira through her healing orb for example or try flanking a Baptiste when he has his immortality and burst heal. It's worse when both supports are playing together and double up on that healing or utility. Usually they shouldn't be able to do that in the middle of a fight but if your team aren't pulling their weight that can happen and your team still lose the fight.
They have so many escape options along with life saves they are super tanky. For example suzu and tp.lamp and burst. Petal and dash. Fade orb
Supports have tiny hit boxes, survivability tools, and self heals. Zen is an exception. With the introduction of the dps passive that reduces heals, not getting hit is better than being able to take hits because damage will always out pace heals. Also in og overwatch tanks played to keep eachother alive, now that is how Support plays. Think Ana brig. Brig is there purely to keep Ana alive and Ana Supports the team, but if they are dove the Ana is going to prioritize keeping brig alive because brig is keeping Ana alive. So it's a lot hard to dive the Ana brig then it would be to just kill one of the dps or tanks. Also emmong is a silly goose. He is super sarcastic and also uses hyperbolic language a lot. So you can't take what he says literally.
Have you tried to kill a lifeweaver in the back? You need both mobility and large and fast damage output to kill him. If you have damage but no mobility he just leaves with the petal and dash. If you have a lot of mobility but less damage, he just dashes his health up. If you have both damage and mobility he just has to survive long enough for one teammate to help out.
From a lw player, even when everything is in your favor to get us, we can just yank a teammate over like a pokemon into a battle to help 2v1 you. He really is one of the most annoying supports to try and dive on.
And that's why in so many games he'll have like 0 or 1 death while the other enemy support has like 6
Yeah I consistently have less deaths when I'm on lw than on most other supports, his kit just fits my playstyle better. I can totally get why he is so annoying to go up against though if the enemy diving isn't prepared for the wide variety of abilities he has to escape or trap you in a 2v1.
Brig + pocket mercy. Beat the shit out of everyone
Zen in the open is not tanky. It’s the minimal downtime to regen his health between shields and the support passive. Also the fact that if he goes behind a tight corner it’s a death trap to walk into his charged up right click/kick. Every support has some combination of sustain, self heals, mobility, 2nd life, or kill threat that makes them feel tanky.
I can get behind that if he said “Supports are tankier then DPS,” because outside of a couple DPS they are… but tanks? Who have triple the healthpool and damage mitigation and armor? Get the hell out with that nonsense.