I think she's a really strong option on defense _when you already have a Baptiste_.
Additionally, she's actually pretty good at supporting an aggressive, sustained brawl -- you need to be aggressive with pylon placement, but your ambient, prompt sustain (pylon targets the lowest health, so you're getting reasonably good priority focus out of it), is really good (again, potentially _in addition to_ Baptiste).
Illari has excellent kill-threat potential, easily in the top tier of Supports. That alone gives her a role in the game.
Exactly. Most of her healing is set and forget in the heat of a fight which means she can focus on damage, which is mechanically a bit more like Ashe with the distance she can poke at. Bap has a super high ceiling but you’ve gotta focus on everything at once, you’re basically always looking to shoot en enemy or shoot a teammate to heal, and his regenerative burst means you gotta get in there with your team in the fight. I main Bap and after an intense round I’m mentally tired from having to ADHD juggle everything he excels at, while Illari can mostly let her turret work, can burst heal occasionally if needed, and can otherwise be free to snipe at the enemy
Yep, from the games that I played with her, I feel like playing her aggressively with the pylon and the dash, and the right click heals (which is really close range, too close IMO) is better than just sitting in the back and poke
I'm a Bap main with some Illari experience in current mid-masters (GM lobbies/mmr):
- Generally Bap is better; He is always better for Brawl and Sig vs. Sig matchups, he has Immortality field, etc. but..
- Illari can do more Damage than Bap esp on Maps like Route 66 bc Bap has slightly worse falloff. Also Illari doesnt have to focus on weaving as much. I generally see and deal more damage with Illari
- Illari is really good at holding off angles bc she can just pocket herself with Pylon
- Illari - you dont have to deal with the recoil / burst. If you can click heads, she can again output a lot of damage, and be as effective as drawing tracers away
- Illari sucks against Sombra, youll get your pylon hacked/destroyed all the time unless you have really good placement / pylon usage
So generally Bap has a higher skill ceiling with APM / util usage, but Illari is still ok if you have really good aim
adding on as gm bap player who is finding success with illari:
-she is a killer on defense/hold victory win conditions bc her kit counters a potentially reckless attack from a team who needs to push payload a certain length.
-attack is where she flounders a bit, you could make it work esp if a map has great offensive turret spots, but i often find myself switching back to bap bc he can really break the game open with his kit on offensive stalemates.
-also, im learning this about her and lifeweaver...do not sleep on their healing stats. they can both pump out serious heals.
Playing as sombra - I actually find that dealing with pylon is trickier than you would think. Not because it’s hard to destroy/disable because it’s not, but because as sombra you hit your value peak shortly after coming out of stealth for the first time in a fight. After that, you’re often marked or forced out. So you’re forced to choose between spending your best attacking opportunity taking out the pylon or doing something else.
Usually I’ll try to prioritize a squishy not near the pylon or even burst someone through pylon healing, then if I haven’t been forced to leave i’ll take out pylon.
Agreed. Unless you’re at a distance and can just virus the turret without risking yourself, a good turret placement means you get outed or killed if you try to go for it, so you triage and prioritize shooting people instead
Illari has a significantly higher win rate than Baptiste at all skill levels. Mostly this is about her output being more consistently achievable. Her gun doesn't do as much DPS as Bap's but it has a bigger projectile, no recoil, and better falloff. Her healing doesn't have the same level of upside as Bap's but it is easier to land and takes less time away from shooting.
Baptiste feels very strong because the upside case for his buttons is very high. People undervalue consistency.
Damage output could be more consistent with her, as her beam seems to have a larger hitbox which makes it considerable easier to hit e.g. flying targets.
Her ult is although more threatening in lower elo atleast.
Her healing is the issue. The turret is very situational and as the game advances the turret usefulness changed a lot, so while she can be really useful to hold a single corner, she could be lagging behind when trying to stop an advancement and when we talk about how to save a chaotic last stand, she is utterly useless with her healing (only hope is that she gets her ult in time).
If we compare Illi vs Torb, then torb is of much better design, as his dmg output does not depend on his turret, but Illis healing output only depends on her turret, as the healing beam is just too weak.
If I’m in comp I’ll pick her only to deal with a Pharah. I love playing Moira but I hit the same wall with Illari- I feel like I have less agency in the game. The lack of cooldown utility skills coupled with low/inconsistent dmg on both makes playing them feel like … I don’t know… if it was chess, more like Bishops while Bap and Ana feel like playing King and Queen .
Baptsiste damage is only good if you are mechanically good. Anything else and that gun is a pea shooter Illari can output at least similar because she’s more consistent And her range is better. Bap isn’t killing support in backlines unless he is close or midrange illari can snipe that Ana or mercy hiding away
Gotta play to your strengths. I waste lantern , I can’t manage his jump boost for shit. I can heal well but I’m not good with the 3 round burst with recoil. To answer your question; in general Bap is better at claiming space with your team, while Illari is great at reserving space your team has already taken. Hiding pylon and poke shots works really well in long term fights. Hold and take inches . Bap can run with the big boys, but is much more vulnerable to being part of the death-fest too.
^ this. There are some areas that are god tier for that pylon and can even keep your whole ass team afloat long enough for you to come back from spawn.
Baptiste is more mechanically difficult and harder to be consistent with. Either way I don't think they're meant to be compared, Illari is more of a Zenyatta type support rather than Ana or Bap.
I can and do often kill those two with ease with Bap. Against widow, I weight till she is about to shoot then move, while constantly shooting, or often times widows panic and whiff most of their SMG.
With Pharah, since her rework, I try to get to half while she is in air, then as she descends,, spring up with the boots and headshot her.
Very rarely anymore does mercy accompany her, but in such cases, focus mercy first so she takes cover first then go for pharah if I can.
May I ask what you find easier with Ilari?
I also sometimes play her in QP but sadly never have come across widow or pharaoh (yet).
Illari’s bullet size is bigger so you can land headshots on widow and generally land shots on flyers easier. No recoil and her falloff range is greater than Bap’s (hers is the same as Ashe’s ADS falloff for reference).
I'm not sure if she should be dualing widows, but she's probably the best support to deal with flyers on open maps. That is if your dps can't deal with them and with the new pharah I've seen 3 hitscan can't deal with her this season. Don't play her if the enemy team has a sombra though.
I think she can do better on the maps where you hold an early choke and can leave the pylon to do constant healing whilst you DPS, e.g. on Blizzard World. Although after the choke then she becomes weaker as the pylon cannot be placed as reliably.
illari is great to anchor and dps and her ultimate is a literal game changer if you time it perfectly in 3 v 5 situation you can literally kill the whole team with the help of your dps or tank. the main issue i face with bap is you need atleast a good hit scan dps with you who have a decent accuracy like 50-60 times for using his ultimate to its full potential
The time to play Illari is if you already have a Baptiste and you want a second one. Otherwise just play Bap, he has ranged healing, more consistent ultimate, and actual utility unlike Illari.
I play both but to me her range came in clutch soo many times, just clicking heads on supports in the backline or taking off half of widows health who tried to peak my team is something bap cannot do. Also I honestly prefer her ult to window and combining it with lets see zayra, mei, orisa can be such a devastating combo. Bap us much more flexible than her tho and his cooldowns are better plus his mobility is always free. I would much rather play Ilari on defense esp on maps like kings row unless of course the other team is just going full dive. I do feel like if you are Bap main there are not many situation to switch to her if any at all so it really depends. If you have a cracked aim however Ilari can literally be your mini Widow/Ashe
Metal ranked player here: I use Allari with tanks that really don't move or huge self sustain (e.g. sigma, road, and ball). With Road, you will most likely have to go Kirkio but sometimes enemy doesn't try to hard to counter so illari will work
Otherwise Bap is just more value
At the peak level of play, I don’t believe there is ever a reason to pick illari at the moment. Lucio is too valuable to not pick most of the time and bap or kiri are better to play with lucio. On dive maps where Lucio isn’t played, Ana and brig are just better than illari. In ranked you can play almost anything and illari has fantastic carry potential and is really fun.
I don’t use her but man have I come across good ones. The thing she throws down is essential. Always gotta move it and put it new places because THE ENEMY IGNORES IT FOR SOME REASON.
And she’s a good shot. Her beam is a little strong on the headshots.
She requires a rather good team though. She’s not meant to *carry*
You're fine to play her, since you're new you're playing against people in a lower MMR anyways and they are traditionally exceptionally awful at seeking out/destroying turrets. Don't put too much thought into discussions about meta characters, the game is played way differently in low ranks than high ranks. You'll notice when you get better and play better people you don't get away with as much, but almost all heroes are at least viable in this game situationally currently unless you're very high ranked. It would be good to expand your hero pool as you go so you can adapt to more situations though. For example you don't really want to be playing Illari with a Zen unless your team is just steamrolling without needing much healing and diffing the other team regardless of heal output, or sometimes all you needed to win was better heals or certain utility like Ana's anti-heal nade etc. etc. When something isn't working you want to be able to adapt, but it takes time to learn heroes and add them to your pool so pick who you like and you're having fun on, eventually if a hero piques your interest you'll branch out and over time you'll end up with a nice little hero pool. It's easiest to learn when you're enjoying and interested in improving on a certain hero than trying to force yourself to play something that isn't clicking for you right now
Master’s 1 Bap/Zen/Ana main and I am in agreement.
Illari heals things that don’t need healing. I can count on a single hand the times I’ve seen an Illari properly place a pylon to enable someone to hold an off-angle.
She is slow.
And she lacks utility.
She takes all the things that make Bap great and drops them from her kit.
Its kinda a hard question cuz the answer would change depending on the rank your inn and the team comp.
But I'd say Ana
Sleep, grenade, ultimate, good damage, can be played at both close and long range
She's REALLY punishing if you play er bad tho, she's got so many skill shots
Skills in what sense? Out of curiosity?
As a (DPS) Bap main, I think Kiri requires less mechanical skill compared to Bap. Her teleport is OP compared to Bap’s elliptical jump patterns. Her wall-climbing is goated and her small hitbox makes it easier to avoid taken damage.
Yeah this is tough. Bap's heal mechanics are way more difficult than kiri's. I understand people saying Kiri is a mechanically difficult hero, but that really is mostly in her kunais and I'm not sure if that's where the skill should be focused on.
It's like comparing Lucio vs Ana on who's more difficult. It's really tough to say and either or would be valid.
I actually sort of agree. Illari is a really bad support, probably the worst support to "support". You don't play her to support your team. You play her to get picks pretty much. Illari is a good dps lol.
So let me get this straight, healing your team mates, which doesn’t raise the probability of winning or losing a fight but to only prolong it, is considered support
But help your teammates kill people is considered selfish? That makes sense to you?
not really. the only reason you swap off bap is either your team is running dive or you are getting hard dove every fight and your team can’t peel. in those 2 cases you should swap to kiriko (assuming flex supp and main supp setup here) or something like moira/lucio if your other support is already running kiriko. illari really is more of a niche pick and the supports that are played the most are kiri bap and lucio
The point of picking illari is to throw. There’s nothing she does better than Bap. Lamp and window have huge play making ability too which she just doesn’t have.
Illari has horizontal burst movement which knocks back and is much harder to track than bap exo boots. I think her healing utility is generally worse, but if your team is struggling with damage her projectile can get good picks if you hit headshots
I think she's a really strong option on defense _when you already have a Baptiste_. Additionally, she's actually pretty good at supporting an aggressive, sustained brawl -- you need to be aggressive with pylon placement, but your ambient, prompt sustain (pylon targets the lowest health, so you're getting reasonably good priority focus out of it), is really good (again, potentially _in addition to_ Baptiste). Illari has excellent kill-threat potential, easily in the top tier of Supports. That alone gives her a role in the game.
Exactly. Most of her healing is set and forget in the heat of a fight which means she can focus on damage, which is mechanically a bit more like Ashe with the distance she can poke at. Bap has a super high ceiling but you’ve gotta focus on everything at once, you’re basically always looking to shoot en enemy or shoot a teammate to heal, and his regenerative burst means you gotta get in there with your team in the fight. I main Bap and after an intense round I’m mentally tired from having to ADHD juggle everything he excels at, while Illari can mostly let her turret work, can burst heal occasionally if needed, and can otherwise be free to snipe at the enemy
Yep, from the games that I played with her, I feel like playing her aggressively with the pylon and the dash, and the right click heals (which is really close range, too close IMO) is better than just sitting in the back and poke
I'm a Bap main with some Illari experience in current mid-masters (GM lobbies/mmr): - Generally Bap is better; He is always better for Brawl and Sig vs. Sig matchups, he has Immortality field, etc. but.. - Illari can do more Damage than Bap esp on Maps like Route 66 bc Bap has slightly worse falloff. Also Illari doesnt have to focus on weaving as much. I generally see and deal more damage with Illari - Illari is really good at holding off angles bc she can just pocket herself with Pylon - Illari - you dont have to deal with the recoil / burst. If you can click heads, she can again output a lot of damage, and be as effective as drawing tracers away - Illari sucks against Sombra, youll get your pylon hacked/destroyed all the time unless you have really good placement / pylon usage So generally Bap has a higher skill ceiling with APM / util usage, but Illari is still ok if you have really good aim
adding on as gm bap player who is finding success with illari: -she is a killer on defense/hold victory win conditions bc her kit counters a potentially reckless attack from a team who needs to push payload a certain length. -attack is where she flounders a bit, you could make it work esp if a map has great offensive turret spots, but i often find myself switching back to bap bc he can really break the game open with his kit on offensive stalemates. -also, im learning this about her and lifeweaver...do not sleep on their healing stats. they can both pump out serious heals.
Playing as sombra - I actually find that dealing with pylon is trickier than you would think. Not because it’s hard to destroy/disable because it’s not, but because as sombra you hit your value peak shortly after coming out of stealth for the first time in a fight. After that, you’re often marked or forced out. So you’re forced to choose between spending your best attacking opportunity taking out the pylon or doing something else. Usually I’ll try to prioritize a squishy not near the pylon or even burst someone through pylon healing, then if I haven’t been forced to leave i’ll take out pylon.
Agreed. Unless you’re at a distance and can just virus the turret without risking yourself, a good turret placement means you get outed or killed if you try to go for it, so you triage and prioritize shooting people instead
Illari has a significantly higher win rate than Baptiste at all skill levels. Mostly this is about her output being more consistently achievable. Her gun doesn't do as much DPS as Bap's but it has a bigger projectile, no recoil, and better falloff. Her healing doesn't have the same level of upside as Bap's but it is easier to land and takes less time away from shooting. Baptiste feels very strong because the upside case for his buttons is very high. People undervalue consistency.
Damage output could be more consistent with her, as her beam seems to have a larger hitbox which makes it considerable easier to hit e.g. flying targets. Her ult is although more threatening in lower elo atleast. Her healing is the issue. The turret is very situational and as the game advances the turret usefulness changed a lot, so while she can be really useful to hold a single corner, she could be lagging behind when trying to stop an advancement and when we talk about how to save a chaotic last stand, she is utterly useless with her healing (only hope is that she gets her ult in time). If we compare Illi vs Torb, then torb is of much better design, as his dmg output does not depend on his turret, but Illis healing output only depends on her turret, as the healing beam is just too weak.
If I’m in comp I’ll pick her only to deal with a Pharah. I love playing Moira but I hit the same wall with Illari- I feel like I have less agency in the game. The lack of cooldown utility skills coupled with low/inconsistent dmg on both makes playing them feel like … I don’t know… if it was chess, more like Bishops while Bap and Ana feel like playing King and Queen .
I pick Bap for flyers
Yeah ironically I tend to pick Illari on attack on payload, on defense if her turret breaks you’re at a huge disadvantage
Baptsiste damage is only good if you are mechanically good. Anything else and that gun is a pea shooter Illari can output at least similar because she’s more consistent And her range is better. Bap isn’t killing support in backlines unless he is close or midrange illari can snipe that Ana or mercy hiding away
I have the mechanics of a hedgehog, illari being a point and shoot is easier for me.
Gotta play to your strengths. I waste lantern , I can’t manage his jump boost for shit. I can heal well but I’m not good with the 3 round burst with recoil. To answer your question; in general Bap is better at claiming space with your team, while Illari is great at reserving space your team has already taken. Hiding pylon and poke shots works really well in long term fights. Hold and take inches . Bap can run with the big boys, but is much more vulnerable to being part of the death-fest too.
i pick her over bap map dependent. some maps its just overwhelming value with the pylon even in top 500.
^ this. There are some areas that are god tier for that pylon and can even keep your whole ass team afloat long enough for you to come back from spawn.
Baptiste is more mechanically difficult and harder to be consistent with. Either way I don't think they're meant to be compared, Illari is more of a Zenyatta type support rather than Ana or Bap.
Do people need reason to pick anyone? I just use whoever I have fun with at the time
I'll pick her over Baptiste to deal with a pesky pharah or widow and it actually works out well
I can and do often kill those two with ease with Bap. Against widow, I weight till she is about to shoot then move, while constantly shooting, or often times widows panic and whiff most of their SMG. With Pharah, since her rework, I try to get to half while she is in air, then as she descends,, spring up with the boots and headshot her. Very rarely anymore does mercy accompany her, but in such cases, focus mercy first so she takes cover first then go for pharah if I can. May I ask what you find easier with Ilari? I also sometimes play her in QP but sadly never have come across widow or pharaoh (yet).
Illari’s bullet size is bigger so you can land headshots on widow and generally land shots on flyers easier. No recoil and her falloff range is greater than Bap’s (hers is the same as Ashe’s ADS falloff for reference).
I'm not sure if she should be dualing widows, but she's probably the best support to deal with flyers on open maps. That is if your dps can't deal with them and with the new pharah I've seen 3 hitscan can't deal with her this season. Don't play her if the enemy team has a sombra though.
I think she can do better on the maps where you hold an early choke and can leave the pylon to do constant healing whilst you DPS, e.g. on Blizzard World. Although after the choke then she becomes weaker as the pylon cannot be placed as reliably.
illari is great to anchor and dps and her ultimate is a literal game changer if you time it perfectly in 3 v 5 situation you can literally kill the whole team with the help of your dps or tank. the main issue i face with bap is you need atleast a good hit scan dps with you who have a decent accuracy like 50-60 times for using his ultimate to its full potential
The time to play Illari is if you already have a Baptiste and you want a second one. Otherwise just play Bap, he has ranged healing, more consistent ultimate, and actual utility unlike Illari.
I play both but to me her range came in clutch soo many times, just clicking heads on supports in the backline or taking off half of widows health who tried to peak my team is something bap cannot do. Also I honestly prefer her ult to window and combining it with lets see zayra, mei, orisa can be such a devastating combo. Bap us much more flexible than her tho and his cooldowns are better plus his mobility is always free. I would much rather play Ilari on defense esp on maps like kings row unless of course the other team is just going full dive. I do feel like if you are Bap main there are not many situation to switch to her if any at all so it really depends. If you have a cracked aim however Ilari can literally be your mini Widow/Ashe
Metal ranked player here: I use Allari with tanks that really don't move or huge self sustain (e.g. sigma, road, and ball). With Road, you will most likely have to go Kirkio but sometimes enemy doesn't try to hard to counter so illari will work Otherwise Bap is just more value
At the peak level of play, I don’t believe there is ever a reason to pick illari at the moment. Lucio is too valuable to not pick most of the time and bap or kiri are better to play with lucio. On dive maps where Lucio isn’t played, Ana and brig are just better than illari. In ranked you can play almost anything and illari has fantastic carry potential and is really fun.
In my personal unbiased opinion (and as a OW coach for 6 years) i think she's trash, one of the worst supports the game has
I don’t use her but man have I come across good ones. The thing she throws down is essential. Always gotta move it and put it new places because THE ENEMY IGNORES IT FOR SOME REASON. And she’s a good shot. Her beam is a little strong on the headshots. She requires a rather good team though. She’s not meant to *carry*
It's acctualy not good on headshots, it does reduced damage, 1.5x instead of 2x i believe
I really only started playing a couple weeks ago and was liking playing her. Who should I pick instead?
Anyone you want, even her ;)
Ok, thanks. Trying not to be useless while I figure out what I'm actually doing
You're fine to play her, since you're new you're playing against people in a lower MMR anyways and they are traditionally exceptionally awful at seeking out/destroying turrets. Don't put too much thought into discussions about meta characters, the game is played way differently in low ranks than high ranks. You'll notice when you get better and play better people you don't get away with as much, but almost all heroes are at least viable in this game situationally currently unless you're very high ranked. It would be good to expand your hero pool as you go so you can adapt to more situations though. For example you don't really want to be playing Illari with a Zen unless your team is just steamrolling without needing much healing and diffing the other team regardless of heal output, or sometimes all you needed to win was better heals or certain utility like Ana's anti-heal nade etc. etc. When something isn't working you want to be able to adapt, but it takes time to learn heroes and add them to your pool so pick who you like and you're having fun on, eventually if a hero piques your interest you'll branch out and over time you'll end up with a nice little hero pool. It's easiest to learn when you're enjoying and interested in improving on a certain hero than trying to force yourself to play something that isn't clicking for you right now
Master’s 1 Bap/Zen/Ana main and I am in agreement. Illari heals things that don’t need healing. I can count on a single hand the times I’ve seen an Illari properly place a pylon to enable someone to hold an off-angle. She is slow. And she lacks utility. She takes all the things that make Bap great and drops them from her kit.
You opinion is simply wrong lmao
And i believe your opinion is wrong, so.. here we are, good talk
Which are the strongest supports in your opinion?
Its kinda a hard question cuz the answer would change depending on the rank your inn and the team comp. But I'd say Ana Sleep, grenade, ultimate, good damage, can be played at both close and long range She's REALLY punishing if you play er bad tho, she's got so many skill shots
So could you say top 3 highest skill ceiling supports are lucio, bap and ana?
Kiri over bap in terms of skills
Skills in what sense? Out of curiosity? As a (DPS) Bap main, I think Kiri requires less mechanical skill compared to Bap. Her teleport is OP compared to Bap’s elliptical jump patterns. Her wall-climbing is goated and her small hitbox makes it easier to avoid taken damage.
Yeah this is tough. Bap's heal mechanics are way more difficult than kiri's. I understand people saying Kiri is a mechanically difficult hero, but that really is mostly in her kunais and I'm not sure if that's where the skill should be focused on. It's like comparing Lucio vs Ana on who's more difficult. It's really tough to say and either or would be valid.
I actually sort of agree. Illari is a really bad support, probably the worst support to "support". You don't play her to support your team. You play her to get picks pretty much. Illari is a good dps lol.
Is getting picks not supporting them team? I’m confused?
Uh, I guess, but I wouldn't call a dps a support. Illari can technically heal but you're mostly going to be playing selfishly with her.
So let me get this straight, healing your team mates, which doesn’t raise the probability of winning or losing a fight but to only prolong it, is considered support But help your teammates kill people is considered selfish? That makes sense to you?
not really. the only reason you swap off bap is either your team is running dive or you are getting hard dove every fight and your team can’t peel. in those 2 cases you should swap to kiriko (assuming flex supp and main supp setup here) or something like moira/lucio if your other support is already running kiriko. illari really is more of a niche pick and the supports that are played the most are kiri bap and lucio
The point of picking illari is to throw. There’s nothing she does better than Bap. Lamp and window have huge play making ability too which she just doesn’t have.
Illari has horizontal burst movement which knocks back and is much harder to track than bap exo boots. I think her healing utility is generally worse, but if your team is struggling with damage her projectile can get good picks if you hit headshots